Pleas offered in cheerleader beating

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Plea deals have been offered to all suspects remaining in the videotaped beating of Victoria Lindsay. The terms of the deal have not been made public and so far no one has accepted the plea.

The remaining suspects are Kayla Hassall, Mercades Nichols, Brittini Hardcastle, April Cooper, and Brittany Mayes.

If the cases go to trial they could be facing life in prison.

You may want to also view this thread in which Mercades Nichols’ mom is an active participant.

Comments

648 responses to “Pleas offered in cheerleader beating”

November 19, 2008

GregS

For the record, I think it’s a huge mistake to offer Hardcastle and April Cooper any plea deal.

But I’m not surprised. If they don’t get prison time or a trial, that sends the message that what was done to Victoria is okay, even when it’s on video tape.

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November 20, 2008

gompertz

Greg, it seems our society has hit a new low, when you can attack someone and videotape it and not pay any consequences. All you need is to get an evil lawyer to abuse the victim some more and the prosecution will back off. Once again it shows that crime pays and victims cannot count on the government or the courts to provide any remedies. Is there any solution as the system is presently constituted? Must we rely on unorthodox methods to get justice, for the sake of victims and for the future of civilized values?

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November 22, 2008

mrfoad

Sounds like justice in America.
The victim takes a beating.
The ones who do the beating get off scott free, get book and movie rights and live happily ever after.
This makes me sick.

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November 22, 2008

gompertz

It will change when enough people get sick enough to take action.
What sort of action? Hmmm….

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November 22, 2008

Scott

It’s funny how all the defendants plead not guilty in being charged for assaulting and imrpisoning Victoria Lindsay. Yet they will likely take the easy way out with plea deals. But if they are not guilty like they insist why accept a plea deal that will only make them look guilty?

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November 25, 2008

M. Hutchence

because they are a bunch of cowardly scumbags.
I’m sure at this point they will simply do anything to avoid any type of jail time- simply because they know they couldn’t last a day. I doubt any of these warthogs, A: feels any remorse, B: will be deterred from doing something like this again,
C: Be any value to society, ever.

A fine example is another piece of shit, OJ Simpson- It took years, but now we see that he is truly a criminal

I won’t be surprised if these losers avoid jail, but just sit back and watch, they will F up again- most likely within a short amount of time.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

I have heard that the deals offered are very very lenient. So these fine young ladies will miss the opportunity to learn any useful lessons, like the kind of lessons they might learn in jail by being beaten to a pulp and realizing that it doesn’t feel good. So, yes, I think we will hear from them again real soon. My only fear is that the next time we see them they will be guests of the hideous Dr. Phil or that salacious fool Oprah.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

One thing, though, I feel M. Hutchence owes an apology to all warthogs. lol

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November 25, 2008

GregS

Gomp it means the pro bully Bill Maher faction has won. I’m beginning to think they want these sorts of videos to be created. And I’m thinking

A. Parents just don’t care about violence against teens and children when its by other teens and children.

B. Victims in these situations are literally scared into submission.

I think both of these responses are a huge problem.

Response A is the apathy response, this is the response we see from Bill Maher, let kids be kids, let them abuse and be cruel to each other, let bullies by bullies.

Response B is the turn the other cheek response. If the bully hits you, don’t hit back, which of course just leads to you getting hit everyday. If reports are true, Victoria was threatened with more if she went to the cops. It’s possible that bullies have simply bullied victims into submission via threats “if this goes to trial we are gonna get you”, or it could have been via manipulation “how can you not feel sympathy for that poor girl Hardcastle and April? they are just kids!” Now I can only see this playing out in a few ways and none of them are going to be good.

1. Bullies could see this as the ultimate victory, where they can bully whoever they want and then threaten the victim into being afraid to even call the cops, and if they do then prey on the sympathy and compassion of the victim and pretend to be an even bigger victim. Suddenly the bully is the victim in the eyes of the victim and the victims family. Or if manipulating compassion and sympathy doesn’t work the bully could try fear by making threats of all sorts to the victims family “Either you drop the charges or we will hurt your family members”, causing the victim to leave town completely and more than likely drop the charges. And of course if neither of these work, humiliation, blackmail, and dirty tricks campaigns to make the victim look like a crazy mentally ill individual who somehow brought it on themselves.

2. It could be that some people who aren’t bullies will see this case and will say “screw the cops, if someone does that to my daughter I’m going to get revenge personally”, this is going to become a very common response as people see that the cops and courts can’t do anything about this. What will happen is parents will find out, and they’ll pay some people to find the people on the tape and beat them up. This situation is far worse than simply going to the police but an eye for an eye is the only deterrent left when the justice system doesn’t offer a deterrent. The problem with this is that the violence will probably just keep getting worse, as this is what has happened in the inner cities with gang violence based on similar principles.

3.The third situation, which I see as the least favorable and dumbest most damaging of all, is when parents let kids by kids, and side with the bullies. Example would be a group beats someone up on tape and instead of sending it to the cops, they sent it to the victims parents to further humiliate the victim knowing that the victims parents wont do anything. In fact the parents may even side with the bully and punish their kid for being a victim rather than being a bully themselves. The reason this third situation is the worst is because the adults, whether out of fear(weakness), or love for the enemy (weakness), these adults enable the growth and empowerment of bullying, and unlike the other situations, these adults may be away of the consequences of empowering bullies and may be in favor of it for philosophical or religious reasons. This would be pacifism and to me is the dumbest possible response to bullying, I’ve seen kids get beat up progressively worse and more often when taking this approach. The kid who wont hit back, will take a beating today, tomorrow, and forever. Why on earth encourage kids to accept and embrace being prey as a philosophy?

Gomp I hope they don’t get a slap on the wrist as you say they will, if that happens then it opens Pandoras box, because it will provoke a response but I don’t know what the response will be. And I don’t see how anyone really gains from it except of course the worst of the worst.

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November 25, 2008

Scott

If the girls get off lightly as far as their plea deals go then Tori needs to file civil suits against all the teens that conspired aganst her and played varying role in injuring her and breaking her emotionally. Tori has to think of herself and other victims in a time like this.

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November 25, 2008

Anon

Plea deals need to be restricted to certain situations. I’m not sure precisely how the law could be phrased, but something to the effect that plea deals cannot be offered when indisputable proof of guilt exists, as with the video tape in this situation. The system needs to be fixed before scenario #2 comes to pass.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Greg and Scott, so true, Victoria must fight back for her own sake and for all victims. A light plea deal may cause Oreilly to whimper and Nancy G. may put on her best “meany-face” and rant a while, but Victoria needs to be there on prime-time telling her story loud and clear. And yes, some law suits need to be filed. Also, I wish Victoria would get into some martial arts, as I’ve said many times.
There is a war going on for civilization, and it is not about race or class, but behavior, and the bad behavior is driven by faulty ideologies- a fact that seems to be lost on those who think philosophy is boring. Philosophy is about changing the world, as Marx said. And philosophy could be the striking feet and fists of a martial artist beating off an attack by a horde of bullies.

The Buddhist and Taoist monks who developed martial arts were true philosophers and they gave the world a means to preserve civilization against violence. A religious person may be a pacifist or a warrior, it depends on circumstances. Today too many people equate religion with unconditional pacifism, an idea that suits the bullies just fine. Through examining their religious commitments philosophically, people might understand that being spiritual sometimes means taking action and fighting back.

There are many who will react to this outrage of a plea deal by replaying the video and getting angry. Or they might write operas and screen plays. Fine, go ahead. It won’t help. I suggest there are ways out of this mess if people of good will use their intelligence and their conscience.

First of all, it is a good thing that the video is out there and the identity of the attackers is known. Would they really be stupid enough to attack again? Let them know that there would be retribution if they try to go after Victoria again. There is a new consciousness growing, based on science and eastern philosophy, and I think that is exciting.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Anon, the system needs to be fixed, even though scenarios 1, 2, and 3 have already started being put into effect. I find it amazing that, in this case where indisputable proof of guilt exists, the only one NOT offered a plea deal is the one for whom no such proof of guilt exists.

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November 25, 2008

Electronica

its doesnt matter what they get only a few kids will ever hear about it and in a year no kids will remember it. and like lots of ppl i know saw the vid and its the bullies who wanne beat them up cause thwey say they ganged up on tori so bullies dont care if those girls go to prison they say like gomp hope they get beat up real bad there if theyd got killed some bullies i know would cheer.

and getting beat up by grownups in prison can make the girls more mean i know some bullies who get beat at home all the time abnd their real mean and it doesnt stop them maybe makes them worse.

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November 25, 2008

M. Hutchence

hey gomp- i cracked up at your comment, you are absolutely right!

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November 25, 2008

GregS

Electronica how do you figure? All of us have heard about it, and when I look at the YouTube video counts I see hundreds of thousands of viewers and thousands upon thousands of text responses, and hundreds of video responses. I’d say this is at least as popular as Columbine and Virginia Tech, and none of us have forgot about that.

I was a teenager when Columbine happened and I haven’t forgot. When it happened, the teenagers at school started being afraid to bully kids, it changed the attitudes of teenagers across the country simply because of one school shooting.

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November 25, 2008

GregS

Also Electronica, there are two breeds of bully we are talking about here. One breed of bully can feel empathy, compassion and remorse, the other breed of bully is not capable of compassion, empathy or remorse. The first breed of bully was not born that way, they were bullied themselves and were conditioned to become bullies as a way to protect themselves from being treated like Victoria, the second breed of bully is just born bad, these people can best be described as brain damaged, they never will feel empathy or remorse for any victims.

Brittini Hardcastle and April Cooper fit into the second category of bully. While these people are 1% of the population, they make up 20% of the prison population and are responsible for the majority of senseless violent crimes like killing people over a pair of shoes, or bullying a homeless man to death, or being serial rapists and serial killers. It’s these sorts of people that we are talking about here.

These sorts of individuals are not capable of feeling right from wrong, they only know right from wrong based on whether or not they are rewarded or punished. They can’t do abstract reasoning to determine on their own why it’s wrong to bully a person to death, or rape someone. It’s only wrong because they’ll go to prison if they do it and they are afraid of prison.

Some of the people who have seen this are natural predators looking for vulnerable people to attack and bully. They do it for the thrill, and if they could get away with it, they’d bully people to death for the thrill, they’d kill people over dumb shit, they’d rape people, they’d enslave the people they allow to live. Why? Because they don’t feel your pain, they don’t have empathy, remorse or compassion, and they are naturally angry and violent.

There might not be a lot of people like this but there are enough of them that every one of us has been in contact with them. The majority of bullies became bullies because they were bullied by a person like this and it changed them into being a bully. But sometimes people are just naturally predators and Hardcastle and Cooper will have to grow up and face the consequences someday, you are right that many people want to target them, but it’s natural law, it’s the code of the streets.

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November 25, 2008

GregS

and for the record, go to the YouTube videos and look at the comments. You can clearly see that some of the people there think Victoria deserved it, and those are the people I’m talking about.

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November 26, 2008

GregS

You can see the factions in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWLB_uqNY5c

And as to some of the people who said Victoria deserved it because she was talking sh*t, or because she didn’t fight back she deserved to get treated that way, just look at the comments rated in the -1 to -8 range and you’ll see who I’m talking about.

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November 26, 2008

M. Hutchence

Greg- good point and very true in the 2 types of bullies. This is why i love my work with inner city kids. About 90 percent of them are this way because they have to be that way to survive. Once they get to where i work with them, they want to make a change. I’ve worked with kids who have inflicted severe and irrepairable damage-even death.

I often wonder what kind of person i would be if i grew up around constant drugs, gang fights, and bullets. You really can’t be human in that scenario.

That’s why i really cringe and can ‘t fathom how those girls did what they did-
My point is, i will continue to enjoy and put 100 percent effort into working with the kids i work with- they can be saved (aside from a scant few) .

I don’t feel the same way about the girls who beat Tori.

Especially Britani and April- they very much seem remorseless, and a few in that room actually seem to be turned on by what they were doing to Tori. Very disturbing- a very good example of sub-human life destined to continue to grow up to be criminal.

This is why i can not even have ANY hope or compassion for them. They simply need to be kept away from society- for a super long time.

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November 26, 2008

gompertz

O.K. so I went to the link and saw Greta and Jeanine and Ted and Bernie again, seems like such a long time since I saw that on TV, yes it seems like it was decades ago. I remember seeing Jeanine Piro outnumbered and it looks like the prevailing view is winning today. Hey, they’re just kids, right, give them another chance. And if they do it again the same liberal fools will say it wasn’t that bad and the prisons are overcrowded so why not get over it. As for people who posted comments, you can get all kinds of nonsense from people writing under cover of anonymity, but it’s the views of the lawyers I find most disturbing.
BTW I wonder if there is a link to the May 16 (or was it May 15?) appearance of Gloria Allred on Greta. That was when I figured that Allred wasn’t really interested in this case.

Greg, I don’t know much about brain scans and the current status of brain scan research. I wonder what are the chances that a brain scan would reveal anything definite about the psychological profile of someone like BH or AC. Also I wonder whether there would be any legal objections to force people to undergo such examinations, even where their violence is evident.
The only thing I can go on is my own senses, and I remember looking at photos of AC and being struck by how much brutality was reflected in those cold hard eyes. And so young.

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Anon makes some good points about plea deals and how scenario #2 could happen in this case. And yes the system needs to be fixed. It seems to me the system is more interested in protecting the law breakers over their victims and that’s just wrong.

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November 26, 2008

GregS

M. Hutchence I don’t think it’s that extreme. I grew up in the city. Growing up in the city just means you aren’t allowed to be a wimp, you learn quicker that nobody is going to protect you in this world except yourself. I don’t think it’s a matter of where a kid grows up, it’s a matter of what experiences they have and how they respond to it, as alot of people grow up in sparkling safe neighborhoods and they get bullied too and end up damaged.

I think it’s a matter of genes and lack of sheltering which causes the changes which most people claim makes people stronger, it’s part of a toughening process.

The difference between kids growing up unsheltered in the city and kids growing up sheltered is that kids growing up in the city learn the lessons of life faster, and some sheltered kids literally never learn even as adults. The best way you can help these kids is to bring them better options, or give them the tools to make better option for themselves. And also teach them to judge character, the key to my survival was that I learned not to put faith in people, and learned how to judge character.

Although I admit, I probably learned that after being jumped, I learned. And you are doing the right thing by helping kids, whether they are in the inner city, the trailer par, or any environment where they have to fend for themselves. They have to understand that they cannot rely on adults to protect them, they cannot rely on their gang, they cannot rely on institutions, they cannot rely on anyone but themselves to change their situation and improve their life.

This applies to probably the majority of young people in this country. I think the young people who are sheltered have a sense of entitlement, they had mommy and daddy protecting them their whole life and so they feel like they are entitled to or deserve a good life. The truth is, if you want anything out of life you have to take it, theres not going to be a mommy and or daddy to protect you forever, and if you want a good future you have to do whatever it takes to create it.

I don’t have experience working with kids, I’m only in my 20s myself and I’m still in the process of making a life for myself, I just think that if these kids want to have a better life, and they have a clean criminal record, they at least have a chance in this country to do it.

They can join the military, then they can go to college, and through their military experience and college education they can have the training and tools to get what they want out of life. These kids also need connections, invite them into the country club or fraternity, give them a promotion if you are their boss, but thats how a difference is made. And honestly I think society has more to learn from people who didn’t grow up sheltered, because sheltered people don’t really have any idea how the world actually works or how it operates because they’ve been protected from all the gangs, the drugs, the prostitution, the thugs, the law enforcement, etc. The people who grow up on the front lines are the only ones who can tell you what that perspective is like and to make proper decisions you have to understand what the world really is like and not some imaginary world you parents created. This means a lot of these people who survive in the worst environments have leadership qualities we can’t find anywhere else except perhaps in the armed forces.

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November 26, 2008

GregS

Gomp a brain scan will reveal if certain portions of their brain is damaged or under developed and it would explain why they behaved as they did. People keep asking why and need something to blame and tried to blame video games and myspace, well the answer is in the brain.

Human with a healthy brain don’t behave in that sorta irrational way. You can look at the brain and see the scans and this can be used to help come up with some treatments for people who are serial bullies or who act this way. I’m not saying Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper are victims, or that they are innocent, I’m claiming they have a mental illness and need help even more than Victoria. The person who came to this site claiming Victoria has this and that problem, sure Victoria has problems but Victoria is not the one on tape acting crazy. We know for a fact Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper have a problem and part of treating any illness involves examining the scans, just like if you have to get an X ray to make sure your heart, lungs and internal organs are healthy, the same ought to be done with these girls.

I think if these girls are willing to accept the scans we’d better be able to determine just what their problem is and better be able to help fix them, or at least determine how dangerous they are. And personally I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to fix themselves, if they have a broken brain why wouldn’t they want to be treated?

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November 26, 2008

Electronica

greg lots of ppl saw the vid but like no one even knows the boys and cara were let go. and like im like the only one i know who like even knows that and cares but i didnt een know tori wass on tv i missed it. so like ppl not gonne hear about the court stuff and its not gonne ake any diff where i live.

and like een if everyone hears about it its not ganne matter its the bulies i know that screamed thwe loudest beat up the girls and send them to prison and beat them up there too. so its not gonne make any diff with bullies how they get punished. so all that you wrote about that is just silly theories and have nothing to do with the real world.

and greg its silly to say some bullies do what they do what they do t protect themselves. and all bullies enjoy what they do othwrsie their no bullies. yes some bullie cause they were bullied so they think its ok since it was done to them and also some just wanne know how it feels. but if it feels bad they dont do again.

like the only place i heard you really have to beat up others is prison. cause its not enoug to finght back if your young you must beat up ppl tey tell you to beat up and if you dont you can get beat up real bad and maybe even raped and stuff.

thats why its stupid to send april to adult prison if shell try to be good shell get hurt only way not to get hurt is to hurt others who did nothin wrong to you. it will make her worse not better.

like juvie can be bad too you must fight but they dont make yu beat up others. like grownups sometime let a gilr get beat up bu the others if they dont like her ad sometimes they ruff her up themselves but no one makes you beat up anothetr girlwho sisnt do anything to you.

so april should go to prison for kids not grownups but you and some other ppl here dont like that and dont care if she gets worse they just hope she gets beat up but their too ignorant to know that if shes truns real bad in prison it will be easier for her and shell beat up others and get a good rep for it too. but you ppl dont really care you just have your silly theories and your blind hatred.

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November 26, 2008

Electronica

and greg its crazy to say april isnt able to feel compassion and empathy you dont know anyhting about her except that she didnt feel enough compassion and empathy for tori that day is all. thats like most bullies they can feel compasion and empathy just not enough and not for evryone the same. ad aprils not a real bully either shes into fighting and wen tori didnt fight back april pulled her punches and didnt hit for long at all. brittis a real bully thats for sure but april was more into fighting tori and showing shes tuffer than tori.

greg your like a bully who couldnt beat up anyone cause he was small so now he pics on a girl and tries to make her look like shes a serial killer and rapist and not human at all and get her to be treated like that too. you dont care what happens to her at all. and you also wrote you wanne sacrifice april i read it.

mr. hutch you too. you say you have compassion for boys who like killed someone but you have no compassion at all for april. i know lots of girls who hit harder than april hit tori and are prolly meaner too. but you have no sompassion for her so it means you dont care if she gets killed? like i didnt care they hanged sadam husein cause i heard he was real evil and had lots of ppl even kids killed. but april just beat up someone and didnt even try to hurt her much not on the vid.

gomp you too. you say itd e a good lesson for aril to get beat to a pulp. so you dont care if she gets injured real bad. thats like brittin and arpil they were sure tori did something bad and that she needs to learn a lesson so they beat her and didnt worry much they might injure her.

you ppl dont get it your like an example for these girls they learn it from ppl like you. no compassion no empathy if you label some kid all bad. and i think they wouldnt be so cruel like you theyd prolly care nore than you if tori got hurt real bad than youd care if april got hurt real bad. like i dont like to fight aymore cause i dont wanne injure someone real bad but if id beat april and knocked her teeth out youd prolly cheer me on.

its no wonder the worlds screwed up its run by ppl like you.

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November 26, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, sorry I gave you the wrong impression when I said April and Brittani need to learn a lesson. I would be very happy if they felt sorry for what they did and they asked Victoria to forgive them. That would be good for all of them. And we don’t know, they might be sorry but then again they might not,and that’s the part that worries some people. I really hope that they have thought about what they did, and that they realize it was very wrong, including Brittani(not sure I’m spelling the name right). We just don’t know. But we do know that some people are just violent and enjoy being bullies. And for people like that there has to be a way to correct their behavior.

And of course you are right that beating people up doesn’t make them better, it only makes them more angry and violent. But there are some people who like to hurt others and feel no remorse, and sometimes those people can be changed and sometimes they can’t. I think that when people go to jail or prison for violent acts they should be given the opportunity to change, but mostly they don’t want to change. So when I said BH and AC should get beat up in jail I didn’t really mean they should get beat up. it’s just a way I have sometimes of saying things in a figurative way. As I said, if they feel remorse, then they can move on. But if they don’t feel remorse, and they still don’t understand that what they did was wrong, it might help to use some methods of correction they might not like, and sometimes things you don’t like can help you.

So, what kind of things could be done that they don’t like that could help them? First, you don’t let them watch TV and give don’t give them any deserts they might like, such as cake or ice cream. (Anyway, I love cake and ice cream and they might too) They should have simple healthy food, but not too much. And they shouldn’t have any distractions like video games. But it’s not to be cruel but to help them focus on the present moment. And then you could teach them yoga or tai chi and that could help them see things more clearly. You start with simple breathing exercises that make you focus on your breathing, and maybe they could learn some easy chanting and things like that to keep your mind focused and calm. That kind of thing has helped people to become compassionate, and there are cases where people who were violent criminals got over their hatred and anger and became peaceful. And I know it doesn’t always work and it’s not as easy as it sounds, and I wouldn’t advise anyone to try yoga and meditation without someone to instruct them. But just knowing that it sometimes works shows us that there is always hope even for people who seem hopeless.

I wish Victoria and the girls who hurt her would do martial arts and meditation. In fact, I wish everyone would do those things. Of course there are people who can’t improve no matter what they try, because something is wrong with their brains, and that’s where Greg’s ideas about conditioning come in. Sometimes science can help people who have damaged brains, so even if they can’t feel remorse or empathy they can live peacefully and not hurt anyone any more.

Scientific theories can help if they are properly applied, and it isn’t easy, but there is so much violence and wars and misery we need to try. I think it is exciting to try different things, science and eastern philosophy to try to make the world better. I think you said school is boring. If you find school boring maybe it’s just the way the subjects are presented. It looks like teachers are busy preparing you to pass tests without showing you the value of what you are learning. Once you see that the subjects you are learning can help make the world better you will like school more, but you have to stay ahead of the teachers because most of them don’t know how to make their subjects interesting and show you how they relate to the real world. Maybe that is something you have to find out for yourself. and you can do it because from your posts it is clear you are smart enough to do it. gn

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November 27, 2008

GregS

Electronica I’m not a bully at all. I’m the exact opposite. I oppose bullies. I defend victims.

The reason I say that they don’t have empathy is because empathy is not selective like you think it is. If you have it, you’ll just as likely feel it for a pet as you would a fellow human, this is why many humans are uncomfortable about what Michael Vick did to his dogs. It wasn’t just that he was fighting them, it’s that he was torturing and killing them. When you cause pain for another living thing, it’s supposed to make you feel bad immediately, not days later after you are arrested. If she felt bad she would have expressed concern for Victoria immediately afterwards, and she didn’t, she told Victoria that she brought it on herself. I heard no empathy in her tone of voice.

To believe that I’m a bully for wanting to punish these girls is like believing I’m a bully for wanting to punish someone who commits rape, or who tortures animals. They caused severe pain and suffering to Victoria, there is no empathy at all displayed in the video. Empathy usually acts to prevent a person from being able to rape, or prevent a person from being able to torture, or prevent a person from being able to bully someone in the manner that they did.

When Victoria was trapped in the corner like that and being beat on, I thought she was being treated as sub human by Britini Hardcastle, actually most humans don’t even treat their dogs in that way. April Cooper hit Victoria over 40 times in less than 10 seconds, and the hits were hard enough to hear the smack of the blows on camera, you’d have thought April Cooper took boxing lessons, I didn’t see any holding back.

And someone locked the door. That is the ultimate proof for me. If Britini Hardcastle locked the door, she’s a psychopath. It shows she had no intention of letting Victoria escape or run away, and that in my opinion is as evil as what goes on in these prisons you fear.

You are correct in that I don’t care about the feelings of April Cooper and Britini Hardcastle just as they don’t care about our feelings, but I do care about what happens to them, not because I care about them personally but because I want to see their behavior changed from negative to positive. I want them to get help. I didn’t claim they are serial killers or rapists, I said they have the mentality and traits necessary to make someone capable of being a serial killer or rapist. I don’t have faith in these girls like you do, I don’t advocate treating them as less than human, if abuse is going on in prison the have to fix that. I just advocate punishment.

If a dog were to maul a person for 20 minutes we’d punish the dog. If a tiger were to attack a human while we were training it we’d punish the tiger. I don’t hate dogs, I don’t hate tigers, I don’t hate violent people, I just want to punish them and change their behavior by any means necessary. It’s not about an emotion with me, it’s about getting their behavior to change and if they wont change then putting them away.

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November 27, 2008

GregS

Electronica, I want to change these girls behavior by any means necessary. Not because I hate these girls, but because I want to keep girls like you safe from their behavior. And the only known way to keep you and others safe is to set a standard and punish these girls.

I don’t advocate the same punishment for all girls, but so far Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper have not shown the minimum level of remorse required to make me feel any remorse towards them. If you believe in an eye for an eye, you treat people how they treat themselves, and if these girls don’t show any remorse for Victoria, I wont show any remorse for them. I can’t say I feel anything towards them, I don’t hate any of these girls, but I don’t feel sympathy for any of them either and I think actions have consequences and they will be facing them either in prison or outside of prison and ultimately it’s not going to matter where they face them, but I’d personally prefer they go to prison because people need to feel like the justice system still works, I’d rather it not be the sorta mob justice that takes place when the courts do nothing.

You probably were too young to know what happened during the Rodney King riots or the OJ Simpson trial. People don’t forget these sorts of cases.

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November 27, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I did not intend to get on to another blog about this subject. Their are way to many of them out their. I just stumbled across this because I am tired and thought it was something about the plea deals.

I have thougt of something when Michael Vick was brought up. I truely love animals as I have four of my own. He did a horrendous and horrible thing and I believe he deserved his punishment. He went to prison, lost everything he owned and lost a lucrative career. Everyone agrees on that punishment.

But, what does it say when we are more willing to punish someone for cruetly to animals than cruetly to another human being. I think we have things a little backwards.

I to find the fact that that door was locked very disturbing. I really should be blogging this on the other post as you went way more in depth on their it showed a cruelty and intent to keep that girl captive, terrorize and inflect more physical and mental pain on her.

April most certainly did mean to cause physical damage to Victoria. That is not even anything to argue about. Their was absolutely no excuse for the way she was beating her, and yes she was beating her hard. Brittini Hardcastle was the worst, yes. But, lets put all of this into some kind of prospective. Their were 6 girls their who actively in some way participated in the torture of this girl.

I believe they planned it i.e. camera set up, girls in different rooms, etc. Notice the shocked look on Victorias face when they finally got their lighting right. This was a set up no doubt. Their is no way these girls have all of this choregraphed with such detail. The only thing they had difficulty with was trying to figure out how to throw a light switch.

I differ from some people on this post and they know full well my feelings. I will blog more on the other blog about this.

I refuse to go to youtube and hear any comments about the victim. This just shows more their are even more sick people out their with no sympathy.

I to believe their are teenagers who will remember this and take notice. But, from your comments electronica (not confronting you) I can see that punishment must be given out. Because, if just by the actions of these girls alone does not prove it was wrong, maybe the punishment will.

It is extremely disturbing to me that you can not see just how heartless these girls are. And, yes I do believe as you have said several times before you do not condone this beating. However, I do not think you take it seriously enough.

No one wants to see any of these girls raped or murdered. I do not know why these remarks keep getting repeated as known of these people on these post have stated this. However, how can we say what these girls did was not so bad that they don’t deserve punishment. April has to serve time somewhere. Before you lay a hand on another human being these consequences have to come to mind or this type of behavior will not stop.

Their is much concern for these girls. Where was the concern from these girls for their victim. The comments statement by people supporting what they did to Victoria only deepens my belief that punishment must be used in at least an attempt to deter behavior like this. If someone can watch that tape and make comments like some of the ones I have read above, the are heading down the wrong path as well.

I for one am going to fight for a safer environment for my own daughter. And, if that means bullies have to be punished, they have no one to blame but them selves. Columbine was a horrible, horrible tragedy. Yes, many of us remember and it brought bullying to the forefront.

These boys felt picked on. They were obviously severly mentally disturbed. So they took it out on innocent victims. This was played out live on t.v. I remember watching it in horror. So if bullying continues to be accepted what is to prevent the people being bullied from doing something horrible like this again. We can not just dismss this and we can not punish Brittini Hardcastle alone.

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November 28, 2008

Electronica

greg you need both thinking and feeling to tell right from wrong. just feeling alone or thinking alone is no good.

and april wasnt torturing tori in the bedroom thats crazy april just beat her up a little. tori was like totally fine when she got up. and what if april saw tori beat up other girls before and what if tori thretened april? why should april feel so bad about beating her up a little?

i woudnt feel bad for april if she got beat up a little like tori got beat up by her in the bedroom. if she doesnt get injured. doesnt mean im a bad person and dont have no feelings for april! just means it isnt so bad and april beats up ppl too so why feel so bad about it?

and april didnt even use fists so saying she was like taking boxing lessons is real stupid you dont know aything about fighting and you prolly never seen a real fight or beating yu dont know what your talking about.

and you dont know someone locked the door all you know someone closed the door. and it doesnt mean anything at all anyway i explained that before. youd send kids to grownup prison just cause you make up stupid stuff about them that isnt true.

and i didnt say its wrong to punish april i said its bad to send her to prison with grownups and not care if she gets injured real bad or killed. and its wrong to make her look like an animal and not a kid. it can get her hurt bad if everyone says so cause ppl will think its ok t beat her up to a bloody pulp like gomp said and she could really get injured real bad.

and i explained how being with grownups can make her worse cause shed have to beat up others there not just fight them but really beat them up even if tey dont wane fight. thats what happens there. but you ignore what i say when you dont know what to say.

and i asked why send april to prison for grownups when theres prisons for kids. but you ignore that. so heres why so april can get beat up by grownups is why. and so ppl dont have to pay for sending her to school thats why. and so that shes there for years and doesnt learn anything there and comes out a felon and never gets to go to school again and cant get no job and gets treated like a criminal and gets spit on by everyone around her except other criminals. thats why. and its not right.

and greg you say yu wanne change april by any means neccesary well that means even if you have to kill her. so i think your worse than april ad britti. theyd say they tried to change tori to teach her a lesson so she doesnt bully and thrreten others again but i bet they wouldnt like say its ok to kill her just to change her.

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November 28, 2008

Scott

Amy’s here! Woo hoo! Hiya Amy. 🙂 You make a great point about Michael Vick and he’s paid such a severe a price for his being involved in cruelty to animals. But cruelty is people is sadly tolerated in society. If Michael Vick has been sent to jail for dealing drugs or assaulting another human being he would be better off than he is for his part in despicable cruelty to animals. It kind of makes you go hmmm.

Electronica, you make a good point about how April let up on Tori when she had her on the bed. She really could have crushed her there but she pulled most of her punches at that point. But the first punch April hit Tori with was a hard right hand sucker punch. I’m sure you’ll admit that Electronica. Tori was standing there defensless and submissive with her arms folded and one of the girls (you tell me who) says hurt her April. Then bam April takes her order and hits Tori with a hard right had knocking her back. That was a serious punch and it could be called assault because Tori was scared and defensless with her arms folded and obviously did not want to fight. If Tori fought back there I bet April would have done some serious damage to her. Acting submissively helped Tori escape more damage from April and the other girls. What happened to Tori was very bad but it would have been alot worse for her if she tried to fight back.

And if Cooper does time I bet it’s in juvenile detention and not adult prison.

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November 28, 2008

Electronica

amy like i said closing a door at night is normal. i didnt see anyone lock it and even if so it couldnt keep tori inside. its just ppl hate the girls so much they believe anything they do is like conspiracy and ppl even make up stuff the girls didnt do. its sad. why cant ppl just judge them fair?

and april wasnt trying to injure tori or even to hurt her much she didnt hit with her fists! if she wanted to injure tori shed hit her with first real hard on the bed not slap her lightly. it just isnt like you say it is and you saying so doesnt make it so truth doesnt depend on what you say and if you dont know about fighting and beating dont judge what you dont understand.

like what if you spank your kid and cops say you tried to harm her? you tried to hurt her didnt you? why else beat her if you didnt want to hurt her? so ppl can play word games but it doesnt mean its true what they say.

and the girls didnt plan this thats obvious from what they say and do. ive been in situations like that and i can tell when somethings going down. like if they planned it why did they kickout tori with all her things and had her go back to her ride and didnt wanne let her back in? the girls didnt know her ride wants to get rid of tori. the girls didnt know toris goging to say she wants to stay even when she saw britti there screaming at her. so it makes no sense.

and inside you can tell easy they dont know whats going to happen they make it up on the go. like april says someone give her a phone so she can leave. it doesnt make sense if it was all planned your making up a stupid conspiracy. like britta mayes yes she was like lets use the camera. maybe britti told britta to do that once tori came back and they figured she may end up fighting april and figure itd be cool to get it on camera. thats all that had to happen for all this to make sense no need for silly conspiracy theories about how its choreograpped that dont make sense when you listen to what the girls say and do.

and i dont know what you mean about my comments you like dont say what you mean so what am i supposed to say?

and i didnt say they didnt act heartless i just say it doesnt mean their always heartless and it doesnt mean they were completely heartless like if tori got killed none of them would feel sorry for her? thats bogus you dont know that.

i dont like it when grownups like greg and mr. hutch say they have no compassion for april. shes a kid and its not right. like if there was fire in the city juvie id feel bad for the kids inside even though i know some of them have done some really bad stuff. id even help to get them out if i could. but if you have no compassion for them at all you wouldnt care if they got burned and died.

maybe mr. hutch was just angry and doesnt really mean what he said but gregs wierd and he says stuff over and over that makes it look like its ok if those girls die cause they have no consciousnes and their not really human at all and so no one needs to care if they get killed. and theres lots of ppl like mr. hutch and greg.

and i dont like it when ppl like gomp say itd be a good lesson if april gets beat to a blooddy pulp. like i see gomp didnt really mean it but when grownups say stuff ppl take it seriously and i can tell you theres lots of bullies whod beat april to a bloody pupl cause they think grownups would approve. and theres lots of ppl like gomp and some mean it for real too.

and where do you get theres concern for these girls i dont see any i see like me here and i saw maybe two ppl on topix and like no one on other blogs and like no one at all on vlogs and like hundreds of ppl saying beat them up beat them up there.

and again no one says april shouldnt get punished i said she should so why do you like make it look like im against punishing her? just cause i dont think she should get beat up by grownups in prison and that its not ok to say itd be good if she gets beat to a bloody pulp and that if april gets injured real bad or dies id feel sorry for her?

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Electronica, I want to change Aprils behavior by any means necessary to protect her from the consequences of her behavior. It’s not people like me who will kill April, it’s her victims who will not accept being beat up. And you say she doesn’t hit hard? I’ve been in real fights, I’ve seen real fights, I’ve trained in martial arts, April for a 14 year old is a talented fighter and probably could make a good boxer.

Anybody who can throw that many punches that quick, and that hard, will make a good fighter, and speed is power. That’s the way punching works, the faster the punch the more powerful it is.

Also when did Britini and April say they tried to change Tori’s behavior to teach her a lesson? I didn’t see that quote anywhere. And when did I say I wanted to kill these girls? Killing them defeats the purpose of changing their behavior by any means necessary because a dead person has no behavior to change. When I say by any means necessary I mean either they follow our rules or we put them in adult prison for life.

And while you seem to think these girls are somehow safe on the outside which I think is a bit naive of you, it’s a lot harder to get guns into prison. It’s easy for someone to get a gun on the outside. These girls if they don’t change their behavior, they will end up dead, period. Not everyone is going to respond like Victoria did, and eventually they’ll beat someone up who will go get a gun or a knife and take the fight to them even more violently. If you can’t see it, I’m trying to help these girls, because they need it, and while you might think it’s not such a serious beating, people get killed over beatings like this.

In fact, had this been guys, it probably would not have ended like this.

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Electronica just because I don’t love these girls it doesn’t mean I hate them. I recognize that it’s in all of our best interesting, especially yours, to change the behavior of these girls. If we don’t change their behavior somebody on the streets could kill them even easier than they could in prison, but you don’t care what happens to them on the street?

It’s in everyones best interest to take these girls off the streets, it’s even in these girls best interest. If they are not taken off the street soon, and if their behavior does not change, they are going to keep bullying and beating people up until one day they’ll bully one last girl, who happens to be even more violent than they are, and that girl will come back with real violence, a knife, a gun, or a gang of girls with knives and guns.

Don’t you see where it all leads? I’ve seen this before, I personally know people who died because they had behavior like these girls and I personally know people who have been shot at, and stabbed over bullying people.

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Electronica, it seems we just disagree. I think you should apologize however for calling me a killer, and claiming I want these girls to die, or that I’m worse than the two girls. I’m not the one on tape acting violent.

What will happen to April is she’ll be sentenced, she probably wont ever end up in adult prison because if she’s 14, she’ll be sentenced probably to no more than 5 years, and will probably be segregated even if she were put into an adult prison because it’s such a high profile case.

If you are seriously concerned about her being attacked and killed in prison,you should be equally concerned about her being attacked and killed outside of prison. I don’t personally want for either of these girls to be killed, because they haven’t killed anyone, but I haven’t been bullied by them, I’m not a victim, and the people who have been bullied by them are the ones who will want them to be killed the most, and while a majority of them wont do it, it only takes one person.

These girls are creating bad karma and enemies through their own behavior. This is why I don’t feel sorry for them, they made their bed and they must lay in it. I don’t think we can leave them on the streets, if you think April should go to juvie for 5 years, thats an acceptable punishment, but she cannot be left out on the streets.

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November 28, 2008

Scott

Electronica made a good point about a parents spanking their kid to discipline them. I believe Electronica really thinks April and Brittini were just trying to discipline Tori for her alleged trash talking of them.

Greg, it was reported early on in this story that Brittini told Tori she’s learned her lesson after she pummeled her.

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November 28, 2008

Electronica

and ppl im not against punishing april im for punishing her it just has to be fair and not too dangerous.

idk what exactly april did so its hard to playa judge. i think it would be cool to put the girls on lie detectors like amy said so we know more. id like to hear what cara said too i cant find it anywhere. and everything that kayla said to the persecution too i heard only parts of it on youtube. anyway id first try to find the truth real hard if i was a judge but for now ill just estimate whats fair from what i know so far.

like i said before april wasnt trying to injure tori she didnt use her fists and she didnt take her time to hit real hard like britti did. april was into winning a fight with tori. when tori didnt fight back april was showing off for the camera so everyone saw she can fight and make it look like toris afraid of her. and scott i agree the first punch was unfair idk why ppl do that the right way is to push the other person and wait is she pushes back or not. ppl think its more grownup to hit first that pushing first is for kids i disagree. anyway april should pay for that first punch thats for sure. and other stuff too of course.

so i think april should go to a juvie for like three months. i mean secure juvie with walls and guards a real prison for kids so she knows how bad it will be if she isnt good from now on. after she gets out of the juvie id put her on house arrest for about three months and have her catch up with studying cause schools never good in juvies and let her come back to school after her teachers say shes ready to come back to school. after that id give her house arrest only on weekend for six more months. also 5PM curfew every day so she cant go to movies and hang out at the mall and get into fights. after that like a 7 PM curfew every day for three years except when shes with her parents or she gets an ok from probation for a school trip or something like that.

and all this time she would have to do charity work like help with small kids in a hospital. she would have to read to them from books and clean up after them if they get sick and stuff like that. id ask tori for ideas with this too maybe shed think of something good for april to do id listen to her if i was the judge.

oh and i dont like nav cause he said im sick in the head but i like his idea that the girls have to go to schools for like ten years and talk to kids. maybe like ten times each year for ten years april would have to go to some school and the kids would be shown the vids and then the teach would explain more about what happened and april would have to asnswer questions from the kids like how could she be so mean and wouldnt she care if she knocked out toris tooth and how come she didnt accept toris apology when she said shes sorry. so april would see what she did isnt cool and kids dont think shes cool and she would have to answer all these questions she would rather not think about. all the girls should have to do this cara too.

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November 28, 2008

Electronica

oh and i was counting the six months april was on house arrest already so thats nine months altogtehr. so its like a whole year under arrest and then six more months arrest on weeknds and evenings and than three years arrest after 7PM so thats like forever. gn.

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Scott just because a bully tries to rationalize their behavior it does not mean their behavior came from a rational place. I heard emotion in their voices on the video, I saw anger in their faces. I didn’t see empathy, and sure after a bully has beat someone up they’ll be like “that’ll teach them to mess with us”, but it doesn’t change the fact that these two girls initiated the violence, it’s unethical to initiate violence against a non violent person.

Electronica, when you said that ethics includes emotion, I disagree with that statement. I’ve concluded that ethics are as unemotional as a math formula. It’s unethical to initiate violence, but it’s ethical to use violence to prevent/end violence. It would have been ethical for Victoria to use violence against those girls. And if those two girls get beat up, it will indeed be an ethical consequence of their own violence. I don’t think they deserve to die, or get life in prison. An eye for an eye means just that, but emotional people don’t and can’t follow that.

April initiated violence against someone, this is why people don’t feel sorry for her if violence is initiated against her. I don’t mind if she’s put in Juvie, just as long as shes taken off the streets, and it has to be for a long enough time to make others like her afraid of the consequences. I don’t think 6 months is long enough. I think 6 years would be long enough, or how about until her 18th birthday? That’s fair. Tori claims to have damaged vision in her eye, that punch must have been pretty hard.

I’d agree to a compromise with you on the punishment, juvie until she’s 18, then release her with some conditions that make it so if she commits another assault of any kind she goes to adult prison.

I think while it’s nice that you want her to read to children in hospitals doing community service, she’s going to have to change a lot to reach a level of maturity to do that.

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November 29, 2008

Scott

Electronica, I think that the type of legal punishment you want for April will occur if she can get a plea bargain. We’ll see. And if Tori is serious about not wanting those girls to go to jail then that might be factor in determining what kind of sentence each girl receives.

Greg, it really would be a mistake if the girls sentences become plea bargains and little or no jail time for most of the girls. But that’s what I think will happen. That would send the wrong message to kids about being able to seriously assault and injure someone with little jail time being served. Yes these kids have been on house arrest and have spent some time in jail for assaulting and imprisoning Tori. But my fear and that the youth in America won’t learn from this sad incident. 🙁

And I really believe Myspace was a major part of the problems and friction between the girls.

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I agree with you that Myspace was a major part of the problem. I think there would still have been trouble, but Myspace aggravated the situation, and young people need to understand that what you type in private on a computer is not really private after all. You never know who is reading it and using it in ways different from what you intended.

When we communicate with someone face to face, our meaning is understood not only through words but by non-verbal signs, like the sound of your voice and your facial expression A text message doesn’t provide that, unless of course you use little symbols and abbreviations to signal your intention. But the possibility of misunderstanding is great because the context is different if the person is not present. Without the context, people will read it and supply their own context and usually their interpretation will come out of hostility and anger, because most people have a lot of negativity inside them and the text message will bring it out.

As for the plea deals, I find it disturbing that everything has become silent, and I can only imagine that the lawyers are up to no good, and that the hoped -for resolution of our many questions will never come.

I also find it interesting that the people on Topix who said they just wanted to show the “other side” with their negative revelations about Victoria have suddenly fallen silent since the plea deal was announced. Coincidence?

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November 29, 2008

GregS

gompertz what you say in general, whether on the computer, on the phone, or in your home is not private. Anything you say can be used against you. Anything you say can be recorded sold for a price. Snitches, backstabbers, and people who like to manipulate situations will often spend weeks, months, or years recording phonecalls, and theres an underground market which I won’t describe in detail here, but I’ll just say that nothing you do or say will stay a secret for long if other people know about it.

This is why it’s best not to do anything criminal. Whether someone snitchs to the cops, or whether they backstab you, or whether they just let you tell talk sh*t about someone and then go to that someone and tell them everything you said, it’s not an environment where you can confide in anyone and expect it to be kept secret.

It’s best to not do anything illegal, and not say anything in private that you don’t want someone to know. Silent action is always better.

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November 29, 2008

GregS

Scott the masses are naive. They don’t understand how violence works because they’ve never seen it. They don’t know the code of the streets because they’ve never been there, never done that, and don’t know anyone who has. A lot of the people who are saying these girls deserve community service have no concept of just how dangerous life on the streets is for an individual who is hated.

If you are hated on the streets it’s even worse than being hated in prison. In prison they can isolate you and put you in segregation. If you are hated on the streets there will be no where to hide. I’ve known gang members and 99% of the gang violence starts with someone getting jumped. If you want a classic example of a celebrity dying from exactly this situation, look at the death of Tupac Shakur. He and his gang jumped a guy in Vegas after the Tyson fight, they all took turns beating him down and walked away. The guy got his gang member homies, tracked Tupac down, and shot him dead. The video of Tupac beating the man down is all over YouTube, it was caught on tape.

The results in that situation were different because these were adult men, but the problem is that these guys thought it would be okay to beat someone up like that and naively didn’t think of the possibly consequences. They thought they were untouchable.

It’s not just that high profile situation, thousands of kids every year across the country are getting beat up, then joining a gang and deciding to never be beat up again, carrying guns and knives. Why? Because one humiliation like that is enough for most people.

It’s getting worse now, with this trend to record the beatings on tape. There used to be a time, I guess when I was growing up, that you could take a beating and not lose face because eventually people would forget about it, but now they want to record it on tape and sell the tape, or upload it to YouTube and show all the people in the neighborhood? That kinda BS is definitely going to cost people their lives because lets be realistic, you beat someone up like that and completely ruin their reputation in that way, what do they have left to lose?

People like us who have worked hard to go to college, or who have nice careers, or loving families, we have something to lose. The average teenager doesn’t have anything to lose but their honor and respect, and to be beat up on tape they’ll lose both. This is why it should be common sense to expect that these sorts of beatings are going to lead to a sharp increase in gun violence far worse than from the rap music (I can’t believe people blamed rap music), and Myspace.

None of us here know what its like to be beat up on tape. And had that happened to some of us we might not have gone to the cops like Victoria did. And thats the problem.

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November 29, 2008

Garland

I most likely agree with everyone is saying from beginning to end of this blog. Some people never cease to amaze me when it comes to the truth about those evil lawyers, what went on, etc. People like those girls aren’t evil, but what they did was wrong, &amp they need to be held accountable for their actions, somehow, or were sending a message out to this wolrd that it’s okay for people to abuse, assault, or even kill others, regardless of what kinds of situations or arguments that hold.

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November 29, 2008

GregS

I think because this case is so unique, the fact that it’s all girls involved, the fact that these girls aren’t gang members (so they can’t just excuse it off as being “gang related”), we had an opportunity to put an end to teen violence in this country.

After seeing this video and seeing the legal consequences, the bullies are going to feel empowered to keep doing it, and victims are going to be encouraged to join gangs. If I had seen that video and the result, and feared being jumped, I would join a gang.

And really thats the only logical thing teens can do now because parents and the police wont protect them, maybe the gangs will. I wish there was an alternative but the people advocating we give all these girls community service and house arrest, thats basically telling kids that if they ever end up in Victoria’s situation to go ahead and join a gang.

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Greg, good point about how nothing is private. While I don’t think the Internet is to blame, the explosion of new technologies is creating more opportunities for exploitation. For instance, there are devices that amplify sounds to such an extent that even in the privacy of your home you cannot be sure of not being overheard. And of course the commercials for these devices downplay the potential for misuse, but that should be obvious. It seems that everyone must be very vigilant and keep up with the latest developments in technology and not assume that they are ever safe from snooping.

Of course it helps to not do anything criminal, but if someone has it in for you they could do all sorts of things to frame you. Anyway, I just thought I would pass on the idea that there are all sorts of resources available from libraries and on the Web to make people aware of the scams and cons and people should be more interested in this subject to protect themselves and their families. I find it sad that, of all the people I know, only a tiny number are concerned about this, and the rest are just asking to be fleeced or worse.

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November 29, 2008

GregS.

Gomp the reason I say all gut feelings are equal is because all

gut feelings are equally capable of causing errors in judgement.

Gomp if you follow your gut and your gut is wrong, you can be

lead by your gut off a cliff.

To anyone who does not know stoicism, stoicism is the belief

that ethics are the most important (most human) form of

knowledge, and that all ethical judgements are based on reason.

We have done studies and have found that ethical individuals,or

at least individuals known to have a conscience, are actually

individuals who have a well developed capability to do abstract

reasoning. We can conclude that ethics is just abstract

reasoning.

They have conducted neuroscience brain studies on the minds of

“ethical” individuals and criminals. If you look at the brain of

an individual who is considered “unethical” we see that the

frontal lobes and the area of the brain responsible for abstract

reasoning is disfunctional. When we look at the brains of normal

individuals, these individuals might not necessarily be capable

of abstract reasoning either, but their emotional areas such as

the amygdala is the regulator for empathy and fear. It’s been

shown in studies that psychopaths for example, do not feel

empathy or fear of punishment due to a broken amaygdala.

What this means is, some people are ethically “talented” because they are lucky enough to have gut instincts which are reasonable more often than not. But not everyone has the same gut feelings and because talent isn’t the same as skill, being ethically talented just means you’ll be right most of the time following your gut but this still means that without proper training you’ll be often wrong, and to be skilled is better in the long term than merely being talented, because you can teach your skills to everyone, including people who aren’t talented.

So while you cannot teach a gut feeling, an intuition, or an instinct, you can teach right and wrong through analysis of cause and effect. When you analyze cause and effect, and how your actions will influence people in the future, this is abstract reasoning. When you determine that it’s wrong to attack a person who pisses you off, of course it would feel good to attack everyone who hurts your feelings, or everyone you don’t like, it probably would feel great to most people, but we decide against it because it goes against certain principles we live by. Those principles are found through abstract reasoning and not gut feelings. The harm principle, utilitarian ethics, do onto others, an eye for an eye, these are all examples of abstract reasoning and not gut feelings.

The laws of behavior are found only through abstract reasoning. Gut feelings aren’t objective, and if we all follow our guts then morality becomes a subjective experience and we end up in a place of moral relativity where there is no right and wrong, we end up in a nihilist ethics which says right and wrong is based on gut feelings which are different for every individuals and so there is no right and wrong and there is no morality.

This is why I say we should always follow reason, not following it is equal to being blind, you can feel free to feel, but someday in your life you will reach a situation where you’ll face a series of choices or options. And all the best options will feel like the worst options, and all the worst options will feel like the best options. And people who always follow their guts will end up choosing the worst option, very much like the people who keep going back to the abusive husband or wife. Why don’t they leave even when they know they should? Because that correct decision hurts emotionally. All I’m advocating is that we embrace the painfully correct decisions in life. Being a good person is always more difficult than being a bad person.

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS.

yeah i know this was supposed to be in the other forum/post, my mistake.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I don’t think most young people really understand that the internet is a public place where even young people’s so called enemies can find out what they are up to and what they are writing about them. That happened in the Victoria Lindsay case and the rest is historu. Bad history.

Greg, I remember the Tupac Shakur story. He lived life on the streets and lived by the sword so to speak and died by the sword so to speak.

And it’s true about how being hated on the street is dangeous because there is no escaping that. And that’s what happened to Tori. Those girls really wanted to catch up to Tori and make her pay for her alleged sins. I also think April believed she would get some type of street credibility in school for beating up Tori for all to see. She may have gotten that street cred but in the end it backfired on April and the rest of the girls.

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Greg, don’t mind the other post, it’s going crazy there. I do see what you are saying, though. You’ve answered my question, whether the “ethically talented” individual also needs to be trained to exercise ethical judgment properly.

Reply
December 1, 2008

M. Hutchence

Greg- i should elaborate, I grew up in a city too, but a fairly nice part of Los Angeles, The kids i work with?
I’m talking about places like Boyle heights, Compton, and Bell California, basically territories that are completely run by gangs 24-7.

Most dogs you would find in a pound live better than some of my boys and girls-

True tho, how it doesn’t matter where someone is from, or what type of upbringing. You can have sociopaths in any tax bracket. Some people are possibly just born sadistic.

Reply
December 1, 2008

GregS

M.Hutchence it’s true that these environments are over run by gangs, drugs, etc. The environment I grew up in was similar, but the way a person adapts to that environment depends entirely on internal strength. If an individual is a go getter, someone who puts themselves first and who doesn’t expect anyone else to help them, it’s the self sufficiency that living in these environments teach and I don’t think this is a bad lesson to learn.

I think in these environments when a kid grows up without anyone to protect them, they have to become strong or they’ll die. For example when Amy said she wants teenagers to be able to go to authority for help, that kinda thinking didn’t exist at all where I grew up. People either helped themselves, or they didn’t get helped at all. There was no authority to go to, and yes there were and is people like you who go into these communities and help kids but there are so few people like that, that it’s like a drop in an ocean, and yes a drop in an ocean can create a ripple effect, it’s still just a drop in an ocean.

I can say from experience, the way to survive in any environment, is to watch your own back and not depend on anyone else to protect you but to protect yourself. These rules of survival work in any environment, they’ll work in the third world slums, they’ll work in the ghettos of the USA, they’ll work on Wallstreet, and they’ll work in prison. The rest is a matter of being able to judge character, being able to choose the right friends because the wrong friends in a bad environment leads to bad situations.

I think if you are serious about helping these teens, and if its a situation here the justice system does not step up and actually solve problems for teens in these environments, then these teens are going to have to be taught to depend on themselves and solve their own problem. Depending on authority doesn’t work when you live in a bad environment where the authority is either corrupt, or just isn’t able to do much to help.

For example if you are growing up around drug dealers, prostitution, and violent crime where people are being robbed and shot all the time, then you are going to have to come up with your own survival strategy. This could mean you and your entire family entering the police academy and becoming the next generation of cops, and cleaning up the streets from the position of a cop. If you and your brothers become cops you can protect your family members who aren’t cops.

The levers of power exist in every single environment, if you are around violence and you don’t want to become a cop you can become a priest, you can join the church and go that route. The options exist once these kids grow up but while they are teenagers is when they are the most vulnerable to violence and so you have to ask, what are their parents, older siblings, and elders doing to protect them? They cannot go to authority outside of their family because they don’t trust them, but they DO go to authority within their family.

So if you are a father raising kids in a high violence high crime environment, you can choose a career path that will allow you to protect your kids. You can become a police officer, you’ll have the legal authority to carry a gun and protect your kids, if you don’t want to be a police officer, any job in law enforcement will give you influence over the justice system if it actually is corrupt but ultimately if you live in a bad environment there are always positions of authority which YOU can become, there is no need to trust authority.

I think thats a key difference. And yes I realize the war on drugs has made it so a lot of kids get drug convictions and cannot even get a job at all, but the majority of the kids who feel unsafe to the point where they carry a gun around or join a gang, they feel that way because their father isn’t around to protect them. Most of the kids who go around as gangsters carrying guns don’t really understand the rules because their dad never taught them.

So it’s a matter of giving teenagers enough options and opportunity to actually do something with their lives, and if they don’t know they have options, an older wiser stronger individual has to sit down with them and tell them that they have better options than joining a street gang. But sadly in some cases, street gangs are the only option some families have, in the situation where their parents are gang members as is the case in some families, of course the kids are going to be gang members too, and the gang isn’t really the problem, it’s the violent crime associated with it.

It’s complicated, and ending teen violence is going to take a lot of work, mainly though it’s going to take adults stepping up and cleaning up the streets for their children.

Reply
December 1, 2008

GregS

And because of gun control in specific, the parents and adults in these environments basically have to become cops to protect their children from crime.

You can blame liberals for that, but like I said, if the gangs have guns, and you want your kids to feel safe and you cannot get a gun because of gun control, then become a cop and be law enforcement and go after the criminals yourself, become the trusted authority.

Reply
December 8, 2008

M. Hutchence

Electronica- regarding your earlier comment-

{mr. hutch you too. you say you have compassion for boys who like killed someone but you have no compassion at all for april. }

There are plenty of girls in our program- and to be honest, im not truly compassionate to any “killer”

I stated that some of our youth in the program have killed.

The difference between our the kids i work with and the one’s involved in beating Victoria, are that the kids i work with have grown up dodging bullets and extreme gang activity. What’s more, is they WANT to change, and be better- and make positive contributions to society.

I don’t get that feeling with April and Britany, they seem to get off on antagonizing others for the fun of it. not just w/ what they did to Vic, but also the incidents of threatening boyfriends,
running cars off the road etc.

I think it’s great that you play devil’s advocate, but it really does seem like you are enamoured and impressed with this bunch.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Electronica

mr. hutch im not! i dont like what they did and i dont like britti at all i got into fights with her type. i always said i didnt like what they did and said they should be punished.

if you say no compassion and you mean it then you dont care if april dies and i think thats wrong she isnt like some terrorist or serial killer or something.

if i read some girl i dont know got hit by a car i would still feel sorry for her even if i dont know her. and i would feel sorry for her even if i knew her and didnt like her at all.

you wouldnt feel sorry for april if she gets hit by a car and dies?

if you would then it isnt true you have no compassion at all for her. if you wouldnt then i dont like that i dont agree.

like if april was beat up by kelsie but didnt get injured real bad no broken bones and stuff then i wouldnt feel sorry for her im not saying its ok for kelsie to beat her up im just saying if aprils in pain for a week why feel sorry for her she asked for it. but if she got injured real bad i would feel sorry for her. and if she died i would feel even more sorry for her and i would feel sorry for kelsie too if it wasnt on purpose if it was an accident when she beat up april.

so anyway i dont think its right to say no compassion at all for april i think its just wrong. but i dont know if you really mean it.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Electronica

and greg like i said on the other blog i never said you want them dead and i didnt call you a killer so how can i apologize for something i didnt say.

i just said no compassion means you dont feel sorry for them if they die and i said by any means neccessary means even killing them if theres no other way i mean when cops say that they means its ok to shoot but it doesnt mean they want to kill.

and you once said april should be sacrificed i remember that.

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December 9, 2008

M. Hutchence

For the record- i do not want to see any of these kids hurt or certainly not killed for what they did that afternoon. I’ve been very clear in stating that i feel most of them, if not all, should get locked up for a long time. i really feel that they would pose a threat to society if they are not kept out of it. I think it is really screwed up that the whole case is taking so long, and it really seems to be going in a direction to where these kids will get off with a slap on the wrist.

Reply
December 12, 2008

Electronica

mr. hutch i know you didnt say you want them killed. you just said you dont have any compasion for them. so if they got killed you wouldnt feel sorry for them would you? if you would youd have some compasion for them. and i hope you do.

oh and it matters cause if like no one has any compasion for them well then they will put april in adult prison with grownups who kill and rape and no one will say its wrong no one will care. so bad stuff happens i mean is more likely to happen when lots of ppl say they dont care at all about someone. like april or kayla.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

It is reported on Topix that Kayla Hassel has made a deal amd is in witness protection.

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December 31, 2008

M. Hutchence

and it continues, this in today- my advice to kids who want to severely beat other kids and make a video: disguise yourself!!!

CNN:

Ogden police arrested three juveniles and two adults accused of beating an Ogden teenager. Detectives had little to go on until the attackers broadcasted the crime on YouTube.

Alexandra Gutierrez and Paloma Lopez, are charged with beating a 15-year-old girl from Mt. Ogden Junior High. Police say it was gang related.

“It was alleged somebody was calling somebody a scrap. Depending on what gang you’re in, that’s an insult,” explained Ogden police Lt. Loring Draper said.

The fight happened Dec. 2 on the 500 block at 28th Street. Police say three 15-year-olds from Mound Fort Junior High also joined in. They’ve also been arrested in what police call a vicious attack.

“They kicked her, punched her and kneed her in the face. Somebody was videotaping and encouraged the fight to continue,” Loring said. “I believe she broke an orbit in her eye broke her nose.”

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January 1, 2009

gompertz

M Hutchence:

I just looked up the report of the “fight” on Ogden Topix. Police expressed surprise that the perps would post it on the Internet. Anyway, they were caught…this time.

There are many fight videos on the Internet. Many are simply fights, in the classical sense of the word. Others are acts of violence and result in injury. In some, one of the participants ( willing or unwilling) is knocked down and repeatedly kicked and stomped. Some appear to lose consciousness. The only thing that interests me is that only a tiny number of these atrocious spectacles ever attracts any attention from the media. I have no knowledge of any measures being taken by the authorities to trace the source of these violent and destructive videos. It seems that hundreds, perhaps thousands of violent acts like these are taped and presented as entertainment on the Internet, and while many thousands enjoy them, no one seems to be concerned that in many cases a violent crime has been committed and a victim has been injured or even killed and nobody cares.

If that is so, it comes as no surprise that the perpetrators of the Ogden beating would feel they could post it with no consequences for themselves. It looks like they were just some of the relatively few who were unlucky enough to get caught.

Reply
January 2, 2009

M. Hutchence

yes- it seems that it could go one of two ways- The first- we really crack down and severely punish (ie lengthy prison terms and fines) those who gang up on someone and document, or we just let it go and accept the fact that our society is slipping down to a cesspool of inbreds who have nothing better to do.

Reply
January 3, 2009

Scott

I haven’t posted in here since November. Gomp posted on December 17, 2008 that Kayla Hassall was in a witness protection program. Is that true?

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January 3, 2009

Phil

Don’t think so
Gomp later clarified but I am sure Gomp will answer .to me it would have been good news because it would have meant .They were serious about procecuting the rest

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Actually nothing is for sure anymore. And that means just what it says, NOTHING is for sure. Everything BEYOND the evidence of the videotape itself is subject to interpretation. One thing we are told is that Victoria’s TV interviews were edited, so we get to hear what the media want us to hear, nothing more. The media do this habitually in order to create a fictitious reality in order to boost ratings. They have done this to everyone I know who has ever been interviewed or whose views have in any way been represented on TV and I don’t understand why people find it so hard to believe that they also did it to Christina when she was interviewed back in April.

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Concerning what M.Hutchence and I have pointed out with respect to the number of fight videos which are not followed up on by police or media. The Lakeland girls surely were aware of this. They had every expectation that their little experiment in film-making would go off without a hitch with no police intervention, because so many others have gotten away with it. They were not being stupid to think that, they were just unlucky ti get caught.

No, let me correct that. They were in fact very LUCKY to get caught. Had they not been caught they would have continued living lives of meaningless depravity and violence. Now they have the opportunity to learn from their mistake, accept punishment and redeem themselves by embracing a moral code of compassion and decency. Whatever the court does, let us hope that sometime in the future we will hear that the perpetrators have transformed themselves from bullies into benefactors of society. Or is that just my foolish dream?

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January 3, 2009

Scott

Society seems to be slipping M. Hutchence. I really wonder after 9 months whether the girls arrsted for assaulting Victoria Lindsay understand what they did was wrong both morally and legally and Tori did not deserve that no matter what she wrote or said about them. Allegedly of course.

I’m sure Kayla would like to make a deal with the prosecution. I think she is having a pretrial hearing this month and that should tell us more.

Yes Gomp, the Lakeland girls thought they would get away with assaulting Tori because they have seen others get away with it and that made them more brazen in their beating of Tori.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

Hey guys seem to be able to post here no problems Going to reoost my last 2 as one message ,

One of the largest obsticals faceing these girls is the danger of felony convictions . If this goes to trial they may get this attached . Is a felony conviction deserved for any of the defendants Especially BH .BM or Mercades. This may be more damageing then any time spent in jail . what are your thoughts . I would not loose much sleep if Bh got a felony conviction. and if they are guilty of charges that are felony charges .then are they not deserved . I am not as sure as i once was (thanks Electronica ) .like to get your opinions AmyV ,Scott and Gomp.
Just asking this makes me a lousy procecutor I know .

To Electronica did not mean to exclude you but you have made it clear your views on this of cource feel free to jump in.
I know i got a bit upset on the Phil&rsquos mean comment , i have been reading topix more closely . That&rsquos a freaking war over there . I have no reason to comlain if i am comparing how we communicate here compared to that site interesting to read don&rsquot know about postin

Reply
January 9, 2009

gompertz

Hey, how’s it going? Hi, Phil-

A lot of these things really belong on this thread anyway so why not use it. I haven’t figured out the other site yet, and now I’m having to take time to deal with all kinds of business (bankers, lawyers, etc) so I’m not feeling “worldly” right now, and my feeling could be described as “icky.” Yes, Topix can get wild, too, but have you checked out their threads dealing with religion and politics? Now, those are brutal.

I would not like to see any of these girls be charged with a felony if that excludes them from job and education opportunities permanently. For me,, the main concern is not the length of the sentences but the chance for rehabilitation and I know many disagree but I see no evidence that any of these girls is incorrigible. I am suspicious of claims that people in violent gangs tend to be more capable of remorse than these girls. I think gang members who get caught in a violent crime are much better able to feign remorse than a group of high school girls who had never had experience of the workings of the legal system. Take the case of Mejia Cinto I referred to on the other thread (or you can find it by google search). He did apologize for the “manslaughter” he committed and that apology was probably good enough to knock three years off his sentence. People like that, who have been around the gang environment, are shrewd enough to fool the judges and counselors who are all too ready to accept the apology of violent criminals, because it confirms their own ideologically biases.

To me, the lack of overt signs of remorse so often alluded to, even the giggling of Ms Cooper, are less disturbing than the phony apology of a clever criminal. In fact, it gives me hope for their recovery that they don’t know how to be phony. Of course, now that their attorneys have taken over, they have probably been coached on the art of feigning remorse as well as any gang member.

So I think the severity of the charges has led to the result that these girls are now more likely to be branded as criminals and may have come to think of themselves as criminals because society and the courts have so designated them and their attorneys are quite willing to enhance that impression, in their own minds and the minds of the public.

Reply
January 9, 2009

gompertz

One more thing, about Electronica, I’ve never felt bad about anything she says to me, because I welcome her honesty. We all react to things in our own way, this is just my reaction and I think all those who post here welcome her input.

Reply
January 9, 2009

christina garcia

does anyone here know who David Stien is besides himself?

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

To Electronica
Gomp is probally right
Sometimes I am too sensitive
Keep telling it in your own way .
Regards
Phil

Hi Gomp ‘
Never good when you have to talk to Lawyers.
With BH being 17 and the ammount of damage she inflicted along with personally preventing Victoria from leaving .Dosen’t that meet a felony conviction in law and spirit . Huge difference between her and the others as far as reving up the brutality. And She was just under 18 . I really think that with her its is deserved and not being vindictive .

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January 9, 2009

gompertz

Trench, thank you. I don’t know if the site was not working. I don’t think my computer is slow. However, I know I am slow sometimes. Memo to self: must improve computer skills.

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January 9, 2009

gompertz

Christina, thanks for the updates. More to come, I’m sure.

As for David Stein, he posted here several times under other names. I think one of his names was Didacticus.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Trench Reynolds

No problem Gomp. If David Stein is that guy from the Czech Republic he’s been banned.

Reply
January 9, 2009

christina garcia

well, he has emailed me with alot of information that he shouldn’t have, and I know he at leasts reads here, because he always refers to my statements on here. He wrote me asking about Mercades visiting with her father on Xmas eve, and when I told him she hasn’t seen him in over a year, he got really mad! He says does 5119 mean anything to you, when I said no it doesn’t, then he wrote back with the street part of the exact address where Mercades was that night : ( She had asked the judge for her curfew to be extended to 10pm that night so that she could spend time with her grandma and aunts and uncles on his side of the family, but he is nowhere around hasn’t even paid child support in over a year muuch less helped with attorny bills. He couldve been there to kill her or something and just at the wrong house…wth is going on here? I don’t care who is watching this board if ANYTHING happenes to my child because someone leaked info out or because her whereabouts are a public record of some sort, you guys here will have something new to talk about here I PROMISE YOU THIS! Mercades did not KILL OR RAPE anyone dam it, and for any stalkers out there, you have the wrong woman here, just be prepared for whats behind my door! This is not a Lifetime movie, and I am not the cute little helpless blonde either. I sleep with one eye open, believe that.

Reply
January 9, 2009

gompertz

Phil, I’ll post more later. A felony conviction is forever. It’s sort of a life sentence. If you can have a felony conviction that still leaves room for rehabilitation and the opportunity to turn your life around and move on to better things, then that’s different. Whether that’s possible I don’t know, and when it comes to the widely contradictory claims I’ve heard about Florida and its treatment of juvenile offenders, I guess I’ll have to wait until I get down there maybe next year and see for myself. Now I gotta go talk to some highly unpleasant people in business suits, wish I didn’t have to. Be back later.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

Christina .Pease be careful.There have been nutcases invoved in this since the beginning , All of us that still post here detest the threats that you and your family and the rest of the familys involved have received since the beginning .I suppose telling you to go to the authorities may be futile but even if you sleep with one eye open being on record is never a bad thing.
.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Sarto

Christina,

Hang in there. What I say now is serious: Get a small dog if you don’t have one…one who has a good ear for intruders and is willing to bark about it. Nobody can keep one eye open all the time.

I only come to this site once in a while, but it sounds like good conversations going on. I surely wish all this would come to an end. Like Gompertz, I would like to see everybody get on to a decent life.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Scott

Phil, yes the teens should have felony charges if they apply. I’m not sure Kayla should have felonly charges but Hardcastle should and then plea out for a much lesser sentence.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

Scott
Does this include April in your opinion I know its hard with her because of her willing perticipation
versus her age and the influence
of older teens especially BM.I am trying to seperate my anger at thier defense strategy.I must admit its not easy for me to do so .Part of me feels that her crimes meet the burden of felonys so that should be enough.Electronica and others have raised the fact that it is to life altering for her actions . Is this not what trials are all about .

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

To Trench
I would like to add my thanks To Gomp’s
Not only for the site itself.but also on the way you make sure respect is given to all that “blog”,I mean comment are here .job well done

Reply
January 9, 2009

Scott

Phil, no I don’t want April to face felony charges. She was only 14 and she did not take Tori to CVS after the assault and threaten her again the way Mercares and Hardcastle and Mayes allegedly did.

On a side note on her 911 call Tori said the girls were nice enough to take her to CVS. I wonder if the girls knew at that point they went way too far in puniching Tori.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Scott

Yes thanks to Trench this is a fine blog.

Reply
January 9, 2009

christina garcia

Thank you for adding aledely, because that is not how things went down sorry…she asked Mercades to take her to CVS after calling her friend to meet them there. The kidnapping thing just doesn’t add up, sorry. Tori’s friend wouldn’t have known to meet them there had it not been decided to meet.

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January 9, 2009

Phil

Sorry to disagree she may have asked to be dropped off but did not have any choice to get in the car in the first place . Why would she ask them for a lift after what happened.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Electronica

phil i didnt read your post before my last post. sorry it wasnt like i was ignoring it.

phil i dont think i can just say i disagree and not say why it doesnt make sense to me. like britti maybe wouldnt listen to me but if april was my friend and she said im gonne beat up tori real good teach her a lesson is it ok if i just told her i disagree. i dont think so. id have to say thats mean thats cruel thats unfair.

and phil i think to be a felon you have to go to prison and thats for more than one year no? it wouldnt make much sense otherwise would it. and no i dont think they should be felons i think thats only for ppl who were real evil like ppl who break your head and make you go blind on purpose.

and phil i think its unfair to judge kids as harsh as gronwups i dont think those girls were thinking oh we could kill tori. if your old like 40 well you should be wise and know a lot so maybe its ok but not when your 14 its unfair.

like the older you are the more responsible you should be no? and thats for kids too. if i do something wrong and a girl whos 7 does the same thing well i should get punished more no?

and also when they punish you its important what it does to you no? ok say you have two kids 8 years old one a big fat boy and one a small sick girl. they do something wrong both the same and you decide to spank them. do you spank them the same? i dont think so. the girl could be hurting for months and the boy could be like haha it didnt hurt at all.

so heres what im thinking. say amys 42 thats 3 times 14 and she does the same crime as april. well amys three times more responsible and three times less hurt by prison. so if you put april in prison for 4 years it means amy should go to prison for 36 years! if she does the same crime as april. but now if you think it should be 4 years prison for amy and shes 42 well april should get nine times less thats about 5 and a half months. and i said 4 months prison juvie and 4 months boot camp and 6 months home arrest so im not so easy on her i think.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Electronica

and phil there used to be lots of screaming on topix thats true. lots of good info too. but if they figured your young they yelled at you to get out. now theres not many ppl there but you know who is there he thinks im some kind of a lawyer or something.

ayways i dont think im gonne post much anymore its tru i get mad. like amy you said said give them life i cant understand that i didnt know you could be like that. and if the penalty was death? or if it was like cut off one of their hands? i cant believe youd give life to april and kayla. and i think maybe having one hand isnt as bas as being in prison forever and ever. if i had a choice i think id say cut off my hand.

and amy you said theres no box on college applications if your a felon. not true! i looked at suny application and there it is question 20a. and above it it says you MUST answer this and must is in big capital letters. so there.

anyways it doesnt matter what i say maybe if you and phil were a judge in real life maybe id change your mind a little so your not so mean but this way it doesnt matter and ill just get mad so theres no point arguing i see that now. gn.

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January 9, 2009

GregS

On the felony conviction, if they are guilty of the crime then they deserve to be convicted, and if they are not guilty then they do not deserve to be convicted. Because it’s a violent crime, and many individuals receive felony convictions for much less, I would not feel bad if they are convicted.

Christina, if you are having a problem with a stalker I suggest you consider hiring a private investigator. The police should have predicted that this situation would be the outcome of a public case such as this. Your daughter is an internet celebrity now. Some of the people you will meet or talk to online will be good people like most of us here, but you’ll always have that 1% of people who are crazy stalkers, and they are attracted to this case not to study it objectively, nor for education, or because they feel for the Victim, they are attracted to this case because they feel like they can hurt Mercades and get away with it.

It’s very much like those people who go around setting homeless people on fire, or people hurt defenseless people. These people prey based on perceived vulnerability. Mercades perception in the media and in these videos makes her vulnerable because if you look at the reaction to the video even today, there is a lot of hatred in the Youtube responses. This hatred is what crazy people rely on to justify their actions.

Other examples being the sorta people who prey on prostitutes, homosexuals, minorities, or anyone who is demonized by the public. They prey on these people because they believe the general public wont feel any remorse or compassion for them. They rely on the fact that the public only sees and believes what the media tells them, and when the media decides to demonize or make a scapegoat out of some target, it gives people the excuse to live out their crazy fantasies.

This is a similar problem to what happened in Germany, when the Jews were demonized. It didn’t happen overnight, but the constant demonizing of the Jews allowed the general public to look the other way or ignore the abuses.

Christina, the best thing you can do is document everything. Make sure your daughter has a cellphone on her at all times. And be careful when dealing with new faces.

Reply
January 9, 2009

Phil

Electronica
the deputy in polk county who is accused of giving private info is also facing felony charges. She is 23 years old and if guilty all she worked for is gone . Ask Christina if she has any sympathy for this person.It is not for just violent acts.The lifetime scenario myself and Amy were given was not in a realistiqe setting ,it was based on a fictisiuos choice. The courts already decided that the defendants are to be charged as adults therfore if guilty they face adult sentences . I believe the choice to charge them as adults was just.. The lifetime argument is not what anyone here is still talking about or wants for anybody. . Your sentence recomondation for April is closer to what most people are saying then what i am saying and i am seriously thinking this through more ..Don’t know if will change my opinion but when people like Scot and Gomp and yourself (noMocking at all) allagree I tend to re think. If wisdom came with age the world would be a better place than it is now.Its up to you how long you post and from one who disagrees with you more than most i think it would be to bad . Know one else puts me in my place when i say stupid things .

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

Christina – I feel you should change your e-mail address. Do not take offense however you should never have posted it in the first place.

Be wise and do not give out that personal information to everyone on a blog. To many ‘stalkers’ out their that is for sure. No matter how much we disagree on other issues, we will surely agree on that.

It sounds like someone who knows her personally if they have information you would of course never give out. Be careful. I promise you I am who I say I am. However, I did decline to go on your personal e-mail. This was one of the things I feared would happen. Keep that info. available to friends you know only.

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January 9, 2009

Phil

GregS Says
On the felony conviction, if they are guilty of the crime then they deserve to be convicted, and if they are not guilty then they do not deserve to be convicted. Because it&rsquos a violent crime, and many individuals receive felony convictions for much less, I would not feel bad if they are convicted.
I have said as much the same thing .I am now having my doubts on April and do not think kayla deserves any felony conviction .What are your views in regards to these 2

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

Hi Gomp, Scott, Phil, everyone –

Thank you to Trench Reynolds. What do they say ask and you shall receive? 🙂 This blog much better and easier to access. I was having so much trouble with the other one I couldn’t get on for a few days. I appreciate your quick response and love the ease with which I got on.

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

Gomp –

I did respond to your question about aquittal or life in prison. However, I was having such a hard time with the other blog I don’t know if my response came through. So if this is a repeat please forgive me.

That was an extremely difficult question. I had to give it a lot of thought. We all know myself and Phil have been called the prosecutors. However, none of my sentences suggested have made me a persecutor for that is something I do not wish to be.

My answer to your question would be guilty. I had to break it down into the two categories of guilt or innocence to come to my decision. It would be life in prison.

My initial response was acquittal. Since I in no way believe any of these teenagers should serve live in prison. That was an emotional response. When I stepped back and looked at it objectively serious crimes were commited. Aquittal means innocent of all wrong doing. I could not make that decision as it is obviously not true. Sorry late with my comment on this one. However, ‘the emotional’ one of the group took emotion out of it. Hard challenge Gomp.

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

I to have question have questions about April Cooper. For this reason and this reason alone. She was not quick to start throwing punches that took some egging on by the ‘bystanders’ at that point. It did seem as though she felt after she got her pummeling in it was over. She did say “Now go” after that I believe.

However, when the fight continued she showed no further mercy for Victoria. She pummeled her again as she was getting off of the couch. So, this further action showed an even more violent side to her. Also, the actions of her parents and lawyers continue to diminish any sympathy she may gain for being the youngest in the group.

We can all blame society, the parents and the lawyers. To some extent there is blamed to be shared here. These girls alone commited the crimes. No matter how bad the influences have been at home. No matter what violence they have been exposed to in their lives. They made a conscious decision to commit these acts.

I agree once again with you and GregS it was a violent act and should be prosecuted accordingly. I do not feel Kayla is the lesser of the evils. She also participated in the act. She hit Victoria, absolutely emotionaly abused her and provided the camera to tape it with. So no more sympathy for her than any of the others.

If we were all on a jury we would not have the luxury of pondering over each and every girls intent, caught up in emotions, etc. If we were to believe it was a fight where emotions just got out of control would that not be making excuses?
I know your question was directed to GregS. I hope you don’t mind my jumping in with my opinion.

I am really starting to believe the Casey Anthony case will go to trial before this one gets resolved. I have been unable to pull up the information you all seem to get on many of the sites. Example: Could you help me with a link to Victoria’s deposition and further assault by the defense attornies. I do not know where to go for this info.

Thanks Phil.

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January 9, 2009

Phil

AmyV i have not seen the deposition though i would also like to see it .. JFk mystry , Bigfoot and The Burmuda triangle will be solved before this case . I think Kayla has pointed the finger at BH forJFK.

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January 9, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

Yes it is a hard challenge. And it was hard for us even though we know it is hypothetical and the reality is that the sentences will probably not be life in prison. Still, the charges make it a possibility. As Greg says, If they are guilty as charged, they deserve to be convicted. With the video as evidence, how could a jury not find them guilty? And the charges carry a life sentence as a possibility, and you never know what judge and jury will do, especially if they respond to the most vociferous calls for harsh punishment. And that is why I raised this question, fictitious though it was, because I don’t think it’s just a product of my imagination. The reason I think it’s more than my imagination is because I know a little about the way lawyers intimidate their clients. Take April Cooper’s lawyer. He probably told her and her family that it is an either/or situation much like the one I made up. He might have told them the only chance to avoid the possibility of a long prison sentence and permanent felony status is to attack the victim. It’s not hard for lawyers to scare people into thinking that they have no other choice. I had that experience just recently. They told me if I don’t put my money in the investment plan they recommended, I would lose it all. They can be very convincing, even if you are an educated older person they can put that doubt in your mind. What if it’s true? What if this investment plan is my only chance to avoid financial disaster? Well, I turned them down and now I have made some enemies in the world of financial advisers. Too bad. No great loss to me.

But what if you are a fifteen year old high school girl who is charged with a pretty terrible crime and many people hate you? And what if you know you yourself helped to create that situation because you really did something terrible and you have no real chance of being found innocent? It’s like the situation they create in ethics class where there are two people in a lifeboat and there’s only enough food for one. If you share, you will both die because there just isn’t enough for two…That is the kind of hypothetical situation they discuss in a course on ethics. It’s like the example I gave of life imprisonment vs acquittal. It is fictitious. They refer to it as “lifeboat ethics” and it is a great exercise for the mind and helps develop our reasoning power. But for the lawyer, who I think took that kind of course and is familiar with that kind of discussion, knows how to convince his young client that it is real. So here is April Cooper, 15 years old, facing a long prison sentence, and it’s the lifeboat with her and Victoria and only one can survive. Yes, lawyers can be very convincing whether you are fifteen or over sixty. That is why I am not so sure she is really a willing participant in what her lawyer is doing to Victoria.

I know I have said this before but since it’s a different thread I thought I might as well repeat it and put it in slightly different words. Sorry if you heard it before.

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January 9, 2009

Phil

Amy Feel free to jump in anytime .I wonder what mine and everyone else opinion would be if we acutaly saw the rest of the video or seeing Bm and Kayla hitting Victoria .I think hearts would harden fairly quickly.
Its just not about the 3 minuets we see so much worse took place .The reason its hard to tell who said what is with them all the screaming at Victoria all at once it must have added to her confusion and helplessness .

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January 9, 2009

GregS

Phil, I’m not on the jury. If she committed the crime then she should pay. April is 14 so I doubt she will face a felony conviction, but if she were to be convicted, it’s not like shes known for being a nice person. As far as I know though, you have to be over 18 to be convicted of a felony.

BH is 18 and was 18, so she’s fair game.

Amyv, it’s not her email address being posted that allowed this. It’s the hatred of the individuals who watched the video. There were individuals advocating killing Mercades, and then posting up her address in a deliberate attempt to lure people to stalk her. I talked to Christina about this very subject months ago, because I knew it was going to get bad.

Fortunately it seems to be just one stalker and not a dozen. The people who posted her address up knew that even if 1 out of 100 people are sick stalkers, when 100,000 people see the address combined with the video the odds begin to rise that at least someone will be crazy enough to take the bait.

We live in a world with evil people who are serial killers and rapists, these individuals get pleasure out of stalking and killing people. I think it was wrong for people to threaten to kill Mercades, but the hatred is out there. The hatred always exists, these people just wait for a time and place to express it. When the war on terror started we had sickos talking about how they want to kill all Arabs, it’s as if these people basically just wait for a big event to give them the excuse to express their hatred, whether it be 911, a holocaust, or if none of these opportunities present themselves they’ll try and sneak and kill, rape, or torture people.

Some of them are highly educated as well, such as a Michael Swango or Harold Shipman

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/...

We have a lot of Iraq war veterans with PTSD, mental illness is a common problem in this country and we do little to nothing about it. Mercades deserves to be kept safe from these crazies as much as Victoria deserves to be kept safe. The people who have fantasies about killing and stalking people need to be treated before they hurt someone, and destroy their own lives in the process.

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January 9, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

You raise an interesting question about Deputy Torres. Is it fair to ruin her life because of what she did? Clearly she betrayed a public trust by releasing private information. I would like to know more about the circumstances, like what kind of information it was and why she released it, was it just curiosity, was she helping a friend to gather background information on a neighbor and why, questions about motivation and so on. Unfortunately for the deputy the law does not operate like that. I don’t think a jury will agonize over her motives. It comes down to a purely formal question, either you stepped over the line or you didn’t. It doesn’t matter that you meant no harm.

Applying that kind of criterion to the beating perpetrators, you would have to conclude they are guilty. Since I might not agree that the charges are proper, I might have to tell the attorneys that I couldn’t render a fair judgment. Or if I somehow ended up on that jury I might have to respond like Electronica and stand up and say “this is stupid!”

BTW I don’t think it’s about feeling bad or feeling sorry for anyone. I don’t know these girls and I don’t know Deputy Torres. I suppose their families would feel sorry for them. If I felt the sentences were not proportional to the severity of the offense, I would feel that a miscarriage of justice had taken place. How I would deal with that is different from the way I would deal with a feeling of pity. There is much in the world I don’t like, there is much that just isn’t right. Do I feel sorry for the polar bears that are losing their habitat because the ice is melting? No, but I contribute to environmental causes even if the extinction of polar bears would not make me lose too much sleep.

And as for the Lakeland case, I will wait and see what happens, if I feel I have to protest excessively harsh sentences or sentences that are too lenient. I think I might say if there is anyone in this case I might feel sorry for, it would be Victoria, and that should be obvious. Still, I repeat, we really don’t know what she wants. What would she consider a just sentence? I can’t get any definite answer from the one person on Topix who could give an answer. Maybe that is as it should be for now, with the possibility of a trial still ahead and the chance that Victoria will be put through hell again by evil attorneys.

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

GregS –

I could not agree with you more. Their are a lot of sick people out there. I was not trying to say it was Christina’s fault. I should be able to leave my door unlocked but I can’t. Safety precautions have to be taken. That was my point to her.

Yes, her grandmothers and perhaps her address is posted all over the internet. I am sure everyone of these teenagers or parents involved have had to change their numbers. Giving out additional information is what I warn against. Should she have to worry about it? No. In the society we live in does she have to? Yes.

Greg, even though we don’t always agree I do listen to the advice you and Gompertz have given on this blog. I take into account more than ever the importance of my daughter and myself being able to defend ourselves. Looking into that and making some decisions. So thanks to you and Gompertz for the advice.

I do not like guns. However, I found this very interesting. One of my best friends lives alone. She takes all of the necessary precautions to protect herself dead bolts, security system, etc.
When she had a break in two houses down from her she took it one stop further. She bought a gun and took classes on how to use it.

The part that was interesting to me was what else was taught. She had someone come into her home (friend of hers). He positioned the gun in her nighstand taking into account where she slept on the bed and the location of the doorway. The gun was placed in the draw at an angle where from her lying position she could grab it and it would be pointed at the door. Kind of strange and off topic. Just little things like that I never even thought about. Like I said before not a big gun advocate but this is a further means of self defense for her.

I believe one of the biggest problems we face in our country is the lack of resources for those suffering from mental illness. This truely is a medical condition that falls through the cracks with too few advocates. The soldiers who come home with PTSD should be given the best of care. Not just physically but mentally. This we well no is not happening in this war nor has it happend with wars of the past.

Until more lobbying goes on for this cause not much is going to change. These people will end up living out on the streets. Going to prisons or wind up in nursing homes. None of these are the proper settings and zero help is given. This is an issue our country truely ought to address. No move for inprovement in this area for many years.

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January 9, 2009

AmyV

Gompertz –

Up late again I see. I am getting a little tired myself. So I will try to make some sense. Have to respectfully disagree with you about the polar bears :).

I believe I have stated this before but I feel it is worth repeating. A victim or a victims family can make quite an impact on the decision of a jury. If we knew Victoria wanted a lenient sentence would it change your views on the punishments that are acceptable in this case. It would not change mine.

Here is my reasoning. A rape victim may actually ask for leniency against her attacker. A murder victim’s family may ask for leniency for the murderer. Both may feel they have very good reasons remorse shown, etc. If they are wrong and the person reoffends that puts future possible victims at greater risk. I for one do not like those odds. Although, it would be interesting to see what Victoria’s wishes would be. I do not feel they should be taken into account. What if she wanted life?

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January 9, 2009

Phil

Gomp
I will say this if thier lawyers or clients felt they were innocent then they should go to trial to clear thier names of the most serious charges, But this trial has never really been about guilt or innocence and has always been about the punishment deserved. I do not like to dispute GregS’s facts because he does so much more research than i but I think it is not uncommen for a youth in Flordia to have a felony conviction when tried as an adult.As GregS has said and I have said in earlier post .If they are guilty of the crimes are they not deserving of the sentences associated with the offenses. I think society gets in trouble when this is not followed. Reading Unkown’s post on topix desribing Victoria’s encounter with AC’s lawyer made me so angry.It was not Victoria’s decision on what charges to press . For all the nasty things that have been brought up about her past and her decision making she has done pretty much everything right as it pertains to the assult . She ignored a very real threat of a worst beating and called the police .didn’t fight back and hasn’t thrown any shots at her (friends)assliants.While the friends turn on one another. .Bad example i know but here it goes . I do not believe in the death penaltiy .but I wouldnt feel sorry when Brooke Bennit’s Uncle gets his .If these girls get a harsh sentence I don’t know how bad i would feel even if i disagreed .I would be very angry with a slap on the wirst. .

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

The girls who gave Victoria a ride to CVS have been charged with kidnapping. I am with you about the logic of Victoria accepting a ride from her attackers. B.S.

She called her friend from CVS for a ride. This in no way can be seen as she must have known it was going to happen. She got beaten needed a ride and medical treatment. Maybe she just should have called an ambulance? Asked for a ride? Very doubtful. Does not make a bit of sense so would want to go anywhere with any of these girls. Hence the kidnapping charges. This is what Victoria states in her affidavit. I believe her. She is the victim.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

I have never been a big believer in the death penalty. What was done to Brooke Bennit’s uncle surely pushes by believes on that. I would feel no sympathy the day they threw the switch on that one. Also, I know I will get some heat for this one, Casey Anthony is proving to be a good candidate for that type of punishment as well.

What you stated is very true. This has never been a case about guilt or innocence. We know they are guilty of the crimes. We just don’t all agree on the punishments. Yes, juves. do get charged as felons in Florida as I am sure in many states. If the crimes are Felonies and not misdameanors why would they be charged with less?

I don’t read the Topix. From some of the comments I have seen here I believe it would just make me angry. However, any informative information you get from there could you please post. Thanks Amy.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Their have been a petition stated to make March 30 the first anti-bullying day. This will raise awareness of our nations growing problem. This petition has been started in the name of Victoria Linday. I found the site and now I have lost it.
When I find it again I will let you all know.

Maybe some good can come out of this after all.

Reply
January 10, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

I need to clarify about the polar bears. I said I don’t feel sorry for them, but I am concerned about their survival just the same. My giving money to environmental causes is not based on whether I consider a particular animal cute and cuddly, but I give just the same. I think hamsters are cute, and I had hamsters as a child and I felt so very bad when one died. I don’t feel that way about polar bears because I don’t think they are cute, but they are worthy of concern and I care about saving them, but not with that same warm loving feeling I have for hamsters and bunnies. BTW I just saw a report about a young man who suffered sever injuries when he broke into the panda enclosure at a Chinese zoo and was mauled by the panda. It seems he thought the panda was cute and wanted to hug it. Cuteness is not always a safe guide to behavior. Now, someone on one of the many blogs about this case once said they found Ms Hardcastle attractive and would like to…well…get to know her better. I wonder if she would have reacted like that panda bear. lol

I totally agree about not letting victims make the final decision about sentencing precisely for the reasons you give. Many rape victims are so devastated by the experience that their judgment is unbalanced and they might opt for leniency. As for what Victoria wants, I would simply find it interesting but I don’t think the judge should consider it. As you say, if she were asked she may opt for life. Many victims would give different answers at different times and Victoria, for all we know, would opt for anything from acquittal to life or worse depending on how she feels at the moment. That wouldn’t be unusual. I would love to ask Unknown that question,but she is rather laconic in her replies lately. She does say that the TV interviews were edited and did not faithfully represent either Victoria’s views or those of Talisa. I have this feeling, that if we could ask Victoria herself what her views are, she would be even more inscrutable than Unknown. And it is only right for Victoria and her family members to not reveal everything, because it should be clear that what Victoria needs most is her privacy.

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January 10, 2009

GregS

Amyv

Everyday is anti-bullying day. This is like the concept of black history month, or women’s day, it’s flawed and is limited by design.

Everyday is black history day, every day is womans day. This is just part of being a real human.

Reply
January 10, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
what the victim wants is always and should be weighed by the judge’This is done at sentencing in victims impact statements..Many sentences have been reduced with pleas from victims and families of victims for lienency ..It just can’t over rule the law. the very best example of why is spousal abuse . many times after an assult the victim for many reasons dosen’t want to press any charges.
I have heard it said that if Victoria dosen’t want them to go to jail then why should we. Well if Victoria demanded life in prison do we still say then that’s fine with me.. of couses not.The onus of a plea deal is on the defense in this case,The SAO has every right to demand payment for the crimes and are under no obligation to put one forward, Mayby they are taking Bulling and internet violence seriously and applying the laws they have to do this.You and GregS understand fighting and hitting more then I do .Victoria could have easily died in tha t room .not because the intent was there to do this but because there was no attempt to limit the damage ..BM’s hand was bloodied from so many hits and still this did not stop her or even cause Mercades concern the oppisite no “you don’t have to stop lets keep it down.” …as Scott said it was only that they had to p/u the Grandmother that had anything to do with why they stopped.Isn’t this the acts of felons..

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Electria, no one here wants the teens to serve life in prison. Nothing close to that. But they do need to pay the legal price for what they did to Tori physically, emotionally as well as the blatant lies they told the sherif’s office in their statements.

Amy, I hadn’t heard about making March 30 the anti bullying day in America. That’s a good idea and I hope it makes Tori feel good and I hope she takes part in it.

Amy, on Tori’s 911 tape she says that the girls were nice enough to give her a ride to CVS to meet her friend so I don’t see how that could be kidnapping. But if they did tamper with Tori by threatening her in the car that she would receive a worse beating the next time if she went to the police. It’s been reported that Mercades told Tori that. The kidnapping charges need to be looked at again. But they did committ crimes of false imprisonment of Tori in the house when they wouldn’t let her go during the beating. or atlest the girls who blocked the door should be charged with false imprisonment.

I would never blame Tori if she never forgave those girls for doing so much physical and emotional damage to her. Every day Tori wakes up I bet she rememers the assault when she opens her eyes and has blurry vision in her left eye. Now Electronica that’s a life sentence Tori is stuck with.

Yes Phil that is the act of felons. Thank God they had to get Mercades Nana because there was no end in sight of Tori’s beating. None of those girls were going to jump in and save Tori even if she was bleeding profusely and semi-concious. The alleged scaredy cats of Hardcastle were in the same room as Hardcastle and Cooper the whole time and cheered them on and did nothing to intervene.

But Phil I don’t think Tori allgedly not wanting the girls to go to jail should have much impact on a judge or jury. The crimes were heinous and there was a coverup filled with lies. A message must be sent to the young people in society that you do not have free reign to hurt people you don’t like for any reason let alone a ridiculous one like alleged trash talking. The girls arrested for Tori’s assault don’t need much time in the big house. But a couple years in jail for the most aggregious offenders should be handed out for Hardcastle in adult prison and Cooper in juvenile detention along with serious probation for them and the others as well. As well as counseling for all.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

AmyV
Please let me know if you find the site for Anti bullying day. .Question though as good of a sentiment as this is ,would it not make March 30th even harder for Victoria to go through year after year.Because we all know what tape will be used to get the message accross.
Is it just for the state of Flordia.Also we have both said after the defendants have paid thier debt they should be able to move on and would this further impede what surley will be a difficult task as it is ,and if so should this even be considered.Ten years from now BH will see her self as well as Victoria the collateral damage of this may never go away as GregS has said Train Wreck. ..
On the other hand (right up Gomp’s ally) .If the defendants could get behind this and become involved in a positive way it could help heal so many of the wounds that this has caused .For Lakeland,Mulberry , thier highschools,the defendants and thier families and would show the community at large that the defendants are genuinly remoseful and want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. The all around happy ending that Gomp is looking for. .Mayby the attornys for the accued should consider this approach to get reduced sentences instead of trying to drag the victim through a legal meatgrinder.Be really interested to hear eveyones views.
Electronica you said earlier that you had ideas to reduce bullying this would be a good time and place to share those ideas .

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January 10, 2009

Phil

To Scott
a simple question .Do you think Victoria had any choice of getting in the car with BH ,Mercades and BM. I do not why would she. Victoria was very clear in her statement how Bh said no you are comming with us and was led by the arm and put in the front seat .She was made to apoligise and further threatened.The fact that Victoria gives them credit for dropping her off speaks more for the class that Victoria showed towards her abusers then any innocents of kidnapping.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

GregS –

You are absolutely right everyday should be anti-bullying day. However, we see how well that is working under our current system. Will a one day reminder be enough to stop bullying? No unfortunately not. We have to start somewhere though so maybe this is a place.

I agree with you about black history month and women’s day? Is their a women’s day I must have missed that one. It is just meant to be a reminder to people of events that are positive or wrongs that should not be tolerated in the future. No cure.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Scott –

I believe Phil already answered part of the questions about Victoria and her willingness to get in the car. On the 911 tape her statement is made with a great deal of sarcasm. Just as the statement about the Pepsi.

She has stated in her affidavit from the very beginning she turned down the offer for a ‘ride’. She was not given a choose. Brittini H. took her by the arm and put her in the car with Mercades and Brittini M. in tow. So when she says No I will walk. No means no. This part should be considered kidnapping. Also, threatening her with retaliation if she goes to the police. The clencher making her apologize for what they did to her.
That part is really hard to swallow. Sickening actually.

If you think about it further, how close was the second car with the boys and the other girls behind? Lets not forget they also drove by to add a little more insult to injury. So with all of these people together does it make any sense she had a choice. Not to me.

I will state again she had to call the other girl for a ride from CVS. How would this add up to her knowing about this in advance? Just going with common sense. I am sure they were willing to let her use their phone at this point. I wonder who else had a phone since at the house Kayla was sure not giving hers up? Hmm… Remember the option to call the police was taken away from her at this point. I thought it was Brittin H. who made the threat.

I always wondered why an additional charge of false imprisonment was not added. Mercades, Brittini H and Brittany M would have both kidnapping and false imprisonment to contend with then. These charges do fit the crime. April Cooper, Kayla and Cara Murphy (I know all charges dropped) would have fit the false imprisonment charge more so than kidnapping.

I will continue to look for the website on anti-bullying. I was messing around with looking things up late last night and stumbled across it. Not real good with this but I will find it for anyone who is interested.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

As always agree, agree, agree. If the girls deny forcing her into the car and Victoria says they did which one makes more sense? This would imply she lied to get them into further trouble. Why would she not have lied about Mercades and Cara not punching her? Does not add up in anyway. She continues to show so much class for someone who was so violated in almost every way.

When I saw the petition last night I must admit I did not think about Victoria’s willingness to be the ‘poster child’. Perhaps it would be better just to have an anti-bullying day on all victims behalfs. I do not know whether Victoria would want this constant reminder or would be an active participant for this cause. She seems to be a very strong person. However, that would be laying a lot on her shoulders.

The lawyers tactics are truely unbelieveable to say the least. Although I can’t download the transcripts of Victoria’s ‘interrogation by April’s lawyer’, I will go by what I have read here.

Lawyers can be very manipulative as Gompertz stated. However, the parents of these teenagers should wise up. Someone has had to tell them at some point that smearing the victim is the last thing a jury or judge would want to hear. If that is their only defense they are going to send these girls up the river.

I really try to put myself in these parent’s shoes. Horrible thought. Some of them have not changed their own M.O.’s of blaming the victim themselves so I think of the others. The ones who truely believe the responsibility of the actions rested solely on the ones who commited the crime. I would fire my daughter’s lawyer. It shows exactly the opposite of what they are stating they are trying to convey. No remorse. You can not have it both ways.

If April Cooper is truely sorry even at her young age seeing Victoria crying on the stand should not be acceptable. Like Electronica said get up and say this is stupid. This is where maybe someone younger would have the guts to do something an adult may not. I put this girl through hell and I will not allow it to happen
again. That shows true remorse. That to me would sit much better with a judge and jury. Of course if we believe her parents are responsible for some of the horrible things being said about Victoria on their site how will this girl every know the difference between right and wrong. Has not shown anything in a postive direction. Quite the opposite actually.

I can’t remember whether it was you or Scott who said these tactics were allowed by a judge to avoid future appeals. I would hope that is the case. That is the only reason the victim of any crime should be tormented to tears. I am certainly no expert in law. I just can’t believe anyone lawyer or laymen would think this tactic helpful.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

To All
Victoria must have been scared shitless in that car . She would have no idea where they were going to take her .Can you imagine the pain she would have been in and still trying to deal with her captors . but here have a pepsi you don’t look that bad yet but you will if you report this to anybody.now say your sorry.Amy is right sickening ,disgusting ,revolting.well i think we all know how i feel about this part of the assult.

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January 10, 2009

christina garcia

Phil and Amyv,
No sir and ma’am, Tori called her friend and said meet us at CVS and asked Mercades to take her. Period! Its all in black and white on Tori’s statements and on the 911 call please stop trying to read her words in other ways Amy, this is how we got into the whole confusing mess in the first place people putting thier emotions in it and guessing and trying to read people, the proof is there, I don’t know if they changed her story after Mr. Judd ran his mouth too much but I have the book with her very first statements so I am not worried about it at all. The kidnapping is a joke, and it will not hold up in the trial. The other things that you speak about like BH threatening her and all this I don’t know I wasn’t there, but I know what I have read over and over again from Tori and kidnapping didn’t happen.
Why would I feel sorry for Torres? Who couldve possibly been the one who gave DS the information that he had about Mercades’ where abouts? The outcome of that could be way way way worse than Tori’s beating, Tori was not murdered or raped. And this is what could happen if Torres gave this information to the wrong person.
Gregs: If Mercades gets caught with a cell phone she goes back to jail, and these animals know all this. But what they don’t know is her Mamma.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

Colliinbine would be a better day to represent anti-bulling . It had nothing to do with betrayed friendships and boys and shows all the extremes of this very real problem. It shows what alienated people who are tormented can become and the results that happened there outwiegh Lakeland in any convceivable fashion.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

Cristina .
Victoria’s statement cleary says that she was forced into the car and was threatned and made to apoligise. If Mercades says differently then you should believe your daughter .I do not expect you to feel sorry for Deputy Torres. People who are charged with felonys if found guilty should pay the price. i was using this as a commparison that even if it means hardship if you are guilty pay the price.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

You are absolutely right. Columbine would be a much better day to remember the tragedies involved with bullying. Just look how quickly all the lessons from that one have been lost to society.

I will never forget watching that event unfold live on t.v. It was truly tragic and beyond comprehension. I have to ask you this though. The reasons behind the boys actions on that day were being bullied at school. So if you remember that day for anti-bullying what would the parents of the innocent victims think about that?
Would this be a day to remember the victims and the ones who commited the crimes. This could also be a touchy subject.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Christina –

Google Victoria Lindsay the ledger. From the beginning these affidavits have been on that site. So if this is untrue someone must have doctured the records.

Mercades statement (you would know if this is your daughters true hand writing not me) she states her and Kayla gave Victoria a ride at Victoria’s request. This is dated I believe March 31, 2008.

Kayla’s statement, once again supposedly in her hand writing, states the same exact thing. However, Victoria’s statement is that she declined the ride. Brittini H. forced her into the car. Kayla was not even one of the girls in the car.

So since this has been on the ledger for many, many months their are three possibilities. 1. Mercades and Kayla drove Victoria and Victoria is lying. 2. Victoria is stating the truth and Mercades and Kayla are lying. 3. Sheriff Judd has had the affidavits doctored for months.

If the third scenario is true. These lawyers should have known about this for months. Hand writing analysis should have been done. All kidnapping charges should have been dropped.

Christina, Phil and I are not making these things up google and see for yourself. As for the 911 tape that is complete scarcasm. Sorry if that offends you.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Christina –

I know the affidavits are public record. Could you please direct me to another site that could have the same papers you do. I can’t find any but the ones I mentioned above. Would like to see the conflicting affidavits it would be helpful in getting to the truth.

If you can not find them however I would not worry if I were you about kidnapping charges. I would worry about the competence of the lawyers who had to see these and could have thrown this out on day one. That would make no sense. If you have an original in Victoria’s own handwriting this should have been off the table a long time ago.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

You were right. If these are the true affidavits. That has come into question. Victoria does state it was Mercades who made the threat. I thought it said Brittin H.

As I stated to Christina if these are false affidavits they should be removed immediately. Or the Ledger should print a retraction. I would demand Kaylas and Mercade’s lawyers to have a hand writing expert look at them immediately. If proven to be false the kidnapping charge would come in to question. They would be dropped. period. Easy enough to prove I would think. Would be a lot harder if they were typed.

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Phil Tori has shown an explemplary amount of class after the her assault. She has shone through this dark cloud in her life.

Amy, once Hardcastle had Tori by the hand and said you were coming with us she had no choice. Brittini was already realizing she assaulted Tori whether she wanted to believe it or not. That’s why the girls were scared and didn’t want Tori to be at the house when Nana Nichols returned home.

As for the 911 tape you hear sarcasn from Tori and I hear a trembling voice. I will listen to it again to try find to find sarcasm from Tori.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

Form Victoria’sStatement pg 11
Iam typing this out cause i caanot cut and paste

So I o back in the room to pack my stuff BH comes in takes a picture of the aftermath,and I was like holding my check and everything and she takes a picture um and helps me pack up some of my stuff and I’m like ok I’m going to go and walk somewhere .i’m going to find somewhere to go .I’ll walk to the nearest gas station and they’ll call the cops.And they were like She was like no you’re getting into the car with me .And i’m like no i’m not your going to hit me. She’s like no i swear to God you learned your lesson I’m not going to hit you anymore .So she grabs me by the hand and pulls me out of the front door and puts me in the front seat.This point um there all just screaming at me telling me its going to be worse on my part. This is only the beginning ,If I call the cops and BM And BH are in the backseat Ac ,Kayla steve and Zach jump in his car anfd drive off
pg12
They drove off to um i think to tak AC home .Um i call Lisa Kelly my friend to meet me at her Nana’s work which is behind cvs and um Lisa kelly is like i can’t hear you I don’t know whats going on but i’ll meet you there so um Brittnay Hardcassles comes up and hands me a a cold soda and tells me sorry and then tells me i need to aploigize to all the girls that I owe them a big apology .So i apoligize to everybody I walk off BH
goes be careful.And i walk off Lisa Kelly comes up .Then a white explorer comes by and a girl yells something out the window .I don’t know what she yelled and they drive off.

How anyone gets they offered her ride or that Victoria asked to be dropped off is rediculous. Please remember the condition Victoria would have been in at this time .
No word of a lie just typing this report Ican feel the bile rising in my stomach .That poor girl to be put through that and thhen have to apoligize .
i know where i would like to stick that pepsi.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

The above post can be found at the ledger website I have left a few minor things out .please feel free to check but I am just angry at these defendants right now so i’m going to cool off so by the time i get back home i can give my son a big hug .

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Phil, you make a pertinent point about an anti bullying day every March 30 could actually hurt Tori nand not let her forget March 20, 2008. Not that she will be able to forget it of course.

Christina, the key to the kidnapping charges being dropped is proving that Tori called her friend from the house and then Mercades agreed to drive Tori to CVS. Why Mercades needed Brittini and Brittany in the car with her is beyond me.

And you’re right Christina, Tori wasn’t murdered or raped. Although some people such as Talia Lindsay say she was emotionally raped. As for Tori not being murdrered or left with brain damage to go along with bruises all over her body and injured left arm or shoulder, vision damage, face damage, hearing damage, lip and teeth damage that was only because of time constraints. Otherwise the assault on Tori would have continued with perhaps Mayes the biggest and strongest of the 6 girls there getting involved and it would would have been curtains for Tori. Brittany hated Tori like April did and threatened her so it was only a matter of time before she got involved pounding on Tori the way Hardcastle and Cooper did. The only reasonable reason she didn’t is because the girls had to vacate the house because the homeowner was coming home.

As for the kidnapping charges, it should be easy to prove they didn’t happen and those cfharges should be dropped. What are the lawyers doing? The kidnapping charges against Nichols, Hardcastle and Mayes should have been dropped months ago since it supposedly can be proven that Tori asked Mercades to give her a ride to meet her friend.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Once again Scott plain, simple and to the point.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

To amyV
good point abot the shooters at collinbine .If there cannot be honest dialougee on the horificc results that bulling causes then what is the use of haveing a the day at all .
Some like Megan Meier take thier own life others turn to rage not only at those that bully but the instituions that not only allow it but seem to promote it .Who will say anything to the star running back or the popular pretty girl. certainly not the schools. The ones who did this at collingbine were also the victims .No excuses can be made for thier actions but what does the body count have to be before the painful thruths can be discuused.

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Merci Amy.

By the way I prefer our Phil to Dr. Phil! 🙂

I hope there is an anti bullying day every year starting in 2009 for educational purposes. But I don’t want the date every year to occur on March 30 which was the day in 2008 in which Victoria Lindsay got assaulted.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

Whether the results of bulllying are death or what we have seen in this case the counts continue to rise. I believe that is what we have been trying to convey all along.

No doubt the zero tolerance for bullying put into effect after that horrific tragedy have long since gone away. Everything is tolerated in school. Open season on everyone including teachers. So the schools need to step up to the plate. The judges and courts need to step up to the plate as well.

Bullying takes its toll on everyone involved. Unless people come together and demand justice for the victims this will never change. This truly was the most extreme case of retaliation for bullying I have ever witnessed. Although we know their have been others.

So here we are how many years later with no progress towards stopping this behavior at all. I have stated before that if you are bullying at school you should at the very least be suspended. If you can not adjust your attitude or your parents don’t intervene fighting should be expolsion. period.

This was my problem with Mercades ex Jake. No matter what the circumstances the boy did go to school officials. This for a boy to go about being bullied from a girl would have taken a lot of courage. What was done at the school to prevent this from turning into criminal charges? Nothing.

I know lacking a lot of the evidence in that
case it is premature to talk about. However, I have not seen these allegations disputed. Fighting is an every day occurance. Just read Electronica’s post. I don’t send my daughter to school to be bulllied or to have to become tough enough to have to deal with someone else’s lack of control. I send her there for an education. Not anymore she is home schooled now.

So once again it is a wait and see issue involving violence with teens. This case needs to be and should be over. Their is an abundance of evidence. Their is absolutely no excuse to tolerate this girl being dragged through the mud from these scummy lawyers and these families.

These girls bottom line beat, kidnapped and physically tortured this girl. I stated before false imprisonment should have been a further charge. Not instead of kidnapping.

100% with you on their is no way Victoria would have been thankful for a ride. That doesn’t even begin to have a ring of truth to it. Not me dreaming things up to make these girls look bad. They have done that one there on. Of course she said that sarcasticaly on the 911 tape.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil and Scott –

I think the sentiment was their and someone’s intentions were good however I agree with you on the day. GregS said it the best everyday should be anti-bullying day. So once again good thought however not the best answer.

Our Phil is head and shoulders over Dr. Phil. I would watch your talk show Phil anytime.

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January 10, 2009

gompertz

I think that our Phil here would more justly merit the title of “Doctor” than that other guy. I guess it just shows how little titles really mean.

Speaking of bullying. Yesterday the NY Daily News reported that a little girl in Far Rockaway was bullied for two years while the school did nothing. The bullying culminated in the child being raped and she’s only in the second grade. The family is now suing the school. Yes every day should be antibullying day, but in reality every day is bullying day and another day for schools and police to look the other way.

Some of the commenters said they were not surprised that police reports on the matter kept disappearing. Yes, it does happen sometimes.

On the question of the petition for Victoria Lindsay it is on the Care2 website which incidentally also sponsored the Michael Vick petiton. I just posed the question for Unknown on Topix if she thinks Victoria would welcome that antibullying petition in her name, and maybe she will get back to me about it.

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January 10, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Ok, you guys touched on something that’s a sore subject with me. In my opinion Columbine had nothing to do with bullying. I have yet to see any proof that the shooters were bullied.

For more on that subject you can see all about it here, written by yours truly over the last 9 years.

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Well said about Phil Amy and Gomp.

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Trench, the Columbine killers might not have been bullied but they were picked on and mocked by some of the so called normal kids. And that supposedly partly triggered their unreal violence at Columbine high school.

And Trench how do I locate the Casey Anthony Facebook blog here?

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Another thing I’ve been meaning to mention is the videotaping Tori’s assault. Did it help or hurt Tori? originally I thought the videotapoing was a part of the reason the assaulted Tori. But what if the video camera wasn’t there? What would the girls have done to Tori if they weren’t taping it to show to their friends or post online? If there was no video what was to stop the girls from beating Tori even worse? Hmmm. Maybe the presence of the video camera kept the girls hitting her under some level of control and from completely ganging up on Tori.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

To AmyV ,Gomp and Scott
I have been reading your comments for so long that I cannot tell you how much i appreciate your kind words.
Thank-you again for it is a real pleasure to exchange and debate with such people as yourselves not only do you all deeply care about what truly matters, you bring an intellect that is sharp and clear and inclusive .
Well done to all of you

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January 10, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Scott, they were also teenage criminals and I think the shooting had more to do with their arrests and Harris being denied entrance to the Marines then anything. I also think that Harris wanted to be one of the ‘cool kids’ so bad but since he was such an anti-social criminal he wasn’t accepted by them.

Not to mention that Dylan Klebold had previously gotten in trouble himself for bullying a special needs student.

Harris and Klebold didn’t even experience a fraction of what happened to Victoria Lindsay.

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January 10, 2009

Trench Reynolds

As for Casey Anthony…
https://thetrenchcoat.com/?s=casey+anthony

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Thanks for the Casey Anthony link Trench.

As for Columbine those were some diturbed kids for sure and any hasles they got from other kids were not behind their hateful killing. It was about Hitler too wasn’t it?

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Thanks Trench for the hook up to the Casey Anthony site. I know at least Scott and myself have been exchanging comments on that case.

Columbine is a very touchy subject. I appreciate your providing an outlet for that horrible crime as well.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

Scott
Excellent question about he taping helping or hurting. Victoria.In the long run helped because it took her away from the contoll of her abusers. With all the reved up emotins of the girls in the room at first it dosen’t appear that it made a difference . I think it made BH worse she seemed to get into interagation role pretty quickly with tape roling . also with the tape rolling may have made April live up to her role to fight(attack)Victoria. Of couse the humilatin factor is tenfold because it is being recorded .Can you imangine if these “friends had the tape and Victoria had not called the police they would have made every attempt to break her over and over.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Scott – Good points about the video camera. I believe it added fuel to the fire. Would they have beaten up Victoria without this? I think so their was a lot of hatred and anger going on there.
Would the events have unfolded any different we will never know.

The one thing the video absolutely did was provide proof. Even with the video these girls have told lies. Imagine the lies that would be told if their was no proof at all. We would not be blogging about this now. So if Victoria is ever to get justice for this crime the video is very much needed.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Scott – Have you noticed our posts are an hour later than written? Just a little issue. Makes me think its way later than I thought 🙂 Perhaps the mighty one can help with this. Oh Trench…

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

O.K. it is one thing when we totally agree on almost every issue. It is another when we post at the exact same time. I feel a chill in the air:)

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January 10, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Scott, nope. And it wasn’t about Marilyn Manson or video games either and it wasn’t about bullying.

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January 10, 2009

Scott

Amy, you mentioned earlier about April seeming not eager to hammer Tori from the getgo and only did after the bystanders as you called them implored April to hurt Tori. That certainly didn’t seem spontaneous.

The video may have or may not have protected Tori from an even worse beating than she got. But it did provide proof of the assault. And as Phil says without the video the girls could have really continued to abuse Tori.

Yes Amy I have noticed our posts are an hour alter than they really are. It’s a tad bizarre but whatever.

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Just a little humor here. Totally off Topic. You know the economy is bad when Nascar slashes the prices of its tickets in half. Of course the price gouging we have seen going on for years was enough for a lot of race fans to stay home anyway. lol

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Scott –

We agree although it does not excuse April’s actions. I think it was Brittany Mayes saying hit her, etc. With all of them screaming over each other sometimes its hard to tell or remember. Of course B.H. was clearly in the doorway to referee.

Would April have pummeled the way she did without encouragement. Once again hard to tell. However, was the youngest with older girls egging her on. It took me a long time to pay particular attention to that issue. Of course I also didn’t watch the tape for a long time. It made me to mad and I could not comment without severe anger.

Time thing really is no big deal. The first time it happened I just thought I lost an hour 🙂

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January 10, 2009

Phil

AmyV
It is not the first time we have posted at the same time to say the same thing .For me reading the post long before I joined the discussions it was always your post that i would agree with. With this case there is hardly a difference in any of our opinions .i have truley enjoyed being co-chair with you .The seriouness that we see this is equal to the disgust we feel.I sometimes feel sorry For the person we are debating with because they usally get a double dose of the same. That being said the responses back usally start AmyV and Phil so it does save them time .
In the long run The recording of the tape and the releasing of the tape has protected Victoria from further reprisals .Everybody in Lakeland and Mullberry knew she was off limits .Untouchable. The outpouring of support is just eating up the people that do not like Victoria . The defendants wanted to humiliate her instead they humiliated themselves .Everytime I hear if you knew Victoria ,Bla.,bla bla . its just iceing on the cake.These people who are stuck in thier pettiness have still not realized the thruth .Victoria won you all lost. Now they want to name a day after her . How sweet is that .I wonder what AC.BM, BH and Merc
and Kayla think of that . March 30 may be a day they should just stay home from now on .

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January 10, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

Love your analysis. Before you came to the post sometimes I felt like a lonely fish in a big pond:)
I have never gone with popular opinions. Even though we can both stand on our own. It is nice to know their is someone as passionate about seeing justice for this case as myself.

I also have respect for the others on this post. Each one brings a variety of ideas that make it interesting and strong issues are set forth. So, although often do not agree with them as much, still highly respect their opinions.

I know I might take some heat on this one but for once am not alone. I can not let the issue of the car ride rest. I do not believe for one minute those affidavits were altered. To much time has passed and that surely would have blown this case out of the water. Scott seems to be in agree me with this as well. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with you about the video. This truly does offer protection she would have never had if not released. These girls without any punishments have come out the losers on that one. No amount of bashing her can ever take that away. It only makes the people who feel it is to their benefit have a false sense of still some control over her. They have none anymore.

I think Brittini H., Mercades, Kayla, April and Brittany M. have a whole lot more anger to go around now. Can you imagine how a few of these girls are going to react to each other after the full blame has been put on the most violent. So all the anger that brought them together against Victoria is the same anger that may cause them further problems in the future with each other.

When it is suggested that all of the girls get together after this to bring closure much is said about Victoria. Would she want to be there? My question is these girls have got to strongly dislike each other at this point. Perhaps a rage that goes far beyond what was felt for Victoria. Can you imagine sitting this group down together even without Victoria? Now that might be worth taping.

I would love to believe Gomp’s continual optomism that all of this will work out for the better. However, the never ending bashing and trial delays are over riding any chance of that. Still I have the utmost respect for him as he is the ‘peace maker’ of the group. Sorry, Gomp. hope you like your new title.

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January 10, 2009

Phil

AmyV
The Account of Victoria’s is to detailed to be incorrect .It follows
true to what was shown on the tape .Can you imagine this scenirio
Brit H poses Victoria adding to her shame and collects another trophey of her conquest,a still photo of her victim. You can see the humiliation on the face of the once proud Victoria.She packs her things again BH going through her stuff helping but really still being in controll .At this point Victoria says Oh Mercades would please drop me off at CVS on the way to p/u Nana .That would be awefuly nice of you its the least you can do since you just kicked me out with nowhere to go. Of couses Tori no prob you can use my cell .you know the one you asked for an hour ago I think its free now . Tori you don,t mind if the 2 Britnies come as well .Of cource not but I get to ride shotgun . Anything for my friend .Are you thirsty cause I can imagine getting the crap beat out of you has to be tiring . We will fix you up once we get there.
Sorry for the sarcasim but the notion that Victoria would willinly get in a car and stay under the controll of BH is so illogical .

Amy there is more to Gomp then just peacemaker remember his run ins with Navigator .He is a true student of humanity .I am sure he has examples of Romans and And Gauls and Mongles that he is just waiting for the chance to apply to this case .And he will do it, there is always a point and it is never a shallow one not like my above sarcasim.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Hi, everyone, I’ve been out making snowmen lol

Amy, I love the name “peacemaker” and I’ve tried to play that role before, sometimes successfully 🙂 and sometimes not 🙁

We don’t know what these girls feelings are these days, but it is very likely they may have some serious hostility toward each other as well as toward Victoria. These feelings may continue even if the courts let them off easy. Seeing how little it took for them to conceive the great anger they demonstrated in the video, it wouldn’t take much for them to turn against each other. If some “trash talking” by Victoria made them so angry, then the way they pointed fingers at each other to the investigators could lead to some serious resentment. I think for the peacemaking process to move forward it is first necessary to let justice be administered. That would mean a fair sentence imposed for each one, some time in a correctional institution with education and counseling taking the place of the unstable and frivolous lives they seem to have been living up until now. And of course getting them away from the pernicious influence of their lawyers would help. It may be that once the initial shock of trial and sentencing is over, the girls may settle down to thinking about education and career choices like other people at their age. After all, they are not children any more. Time to put away the toys of childhood and accept the consequences of their acts and move on.

Blessed are the peacemakers

And blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice.

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Amy, I belive that while April was mad at Tori and she probably wanted to rough her up she was egged on by the older girls and might have felt some peer pressure to beat up Tori for them. Especially because they were videtaping the beatdown.

And Amy NASCAR is running scared. They felt the financial pinch last year and want to have some goodwill for their fans this year. By the way Amy can you tell me what each letter in NASCAR stands for? )

Interesting scenario Phil. I enjoyed your sarcasm. )

Peacemaker Gomp, there is no way those girls who assaulted Tori can ever be good friends again. They are out for themselves. I am sure rthey have some anger for each other for what happened March 30, 2008. But they are angry because they got caught not because they realize what they did was wrong. I am sure they still blame Tori too.

Are the arrested girls receiving any counseling yet or do they have to wait until their sentences are finalized? If they have had to wait then almost a year has been wasted where the girls could have gotten some real help.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Scott –

Nascar (National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing) no wonder they shortened the name 🙂 Here is a little bit of sarcasm. I have not seen that good will towards their fans when prices raiseed three to four fold. I still remain faithful despite the recent influence from big cooporations. I don’t like a lot of the rule changes though. It’s getting harder to defend “All they do is drive around in a circle”. lol.

I agree with you that the likely hood these girls will remain friends is slim to none. It did take very little, although I still think it was mostly about boys, to make them angry at her. Brittini H. did not seem to have any other reason than the face that the others girls didn’t like her. So imagine Brittini having a personal reason not to like another girls. That could be a very scarey mixture. If her past has not taught her the error or her ways.

The time to heal from this crime is surely being wasted. Does anyone have any more info. on the new pretrial dates. How many of those can you have anyway? This case needs to be over with no more excuses accepted. No more extensions approved. Accept the plea deals or trial by jury. That should be the only offer left on the table. With a very short dead line.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Gomp –

Good morning. Hope you are enjoying making snow men. I am enjoying basking in the sun at a cool 80 degrees. Both of these activities are truly relaxing on a Sunday morning 🙂

As I mentioned to Scott no progress can be made towards healing in this case. Actually all of us have mentioned that this morning. How can you move on when you do not know what lyes before you? They need to be given their sentences and serve them. No good comes of prolonging the inevitable. It just adds to the anxiety of this case and further festers resentful feelings.

For everyone involved in this case some type of closure needs to be reached very shortly. Only two months to go before this case is going on a year. If you would have told me that at the beginning I would have been outraged. I wish the judge would step up and put an end to this nonsense.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

Once again really have no urgency to respond to your post. Even though your scenario was meant to be sarcastic some people actually believe it is feasible. That to me is the unbelieveable part about that whole no kidnapping defense.

Of course she would not want to ride in the car with these girls. No way does it make sense the ride was offered out of concern for her. I am also reasoning that she was not thankful to them for the ride but thankful to come out of this alive.

I try to hold back my anger with this case more than I did at the begining. Like you have stated I am angry at the act itself. However, it angers me to think anyone could insult your intelligence enough to think her version is not true. You have to look at the almost unbelievable amount of common sense you would have to lose to believe that one.

I am trying to be more like Gomp and Scott. However, I will state my anger is aimed directly at these girls when you think of Victoria having to apologize to them. Can you even imagine?
Not to worry though for I am sure their urgency to apologize at this point almost matches the fear Victoria felt when being forced to gives hers.

The irony of this is she was forced. They have been denied that defense. Perhaps that is a bit of Karma at work. Love your shotgun comment.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Hi Guys
Some thing occured to me last night and want to know what you guys think.Re the trip after the assult..How does the defence counter this argument. If there is a trial,of course the defence is going to bring up Mercades and Kaylas version during cross examination .However unless they put the defendants on the stand there will be no direct testimoney from the defense attached to the girls innocense in this matter .This in a way is a trap for the proscecuters .The defence cannot risk putting anyone of the 5 remaining on the stand and with the seriousness of the charges of kidnapping they may have no choice but to directly chalenge the accusations with direct testimony from the defendants..Even
Kayla and April ‘s lawyers would not risk putiing those 2 on the stand in order 2 protect the other 3 ,even if what the defence claimed is true. .This charge may be harder to escape from then originaly thought and is execellent leverage for a plea deal.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Now I am going to bring uo Victoria ‘s past before you judge please consider that the defence has and will do this. We of course do not believe that this should matter . Alot of Victoria’s peers seem to have issues with her .She battled her parents .and didn’t want to follow the rules . Has her own issues with the law and to some has not been a vey sympathtiic Character.Having her real Mom in jail. Staying at all sorts of friends houses and on and on.
These so called short comings are in what my opinion gave her the stength to to come though this the way she did . Life has given her a very tough skin.If she would have been the perfect girl next store ,church going , never slept with a boy character then she would not of called the cops after the attack ,Would have remained the victim and endured in silence whatever abuse these people decided she still deserved.If there is a trial I believe life and Victoria’s courage (stupid or not running away from home 14 times is not for the faint of heart)has prepared Victoria to get on the witness stand and absoultly bury her attackers . The defense is making a huge error attacking Victoria she will not be intimidated on the stand and as soon as they go to far and make her cry they are done . . They should take Electronica’s approach and attack the validity of the severity of the charges and offer all the sympathy they can real or not ,to the Victoria and her family.
Can you imagine how different we would feel if the 5 families and thier lawyers had said that while we dispute the severity of the charges we want to pay for Victoria’s medical expense so this is not a further burden to her and her family. This is not an admission of guilt but an act of compassion considering what Victoria and her family endured..

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January 11, 2009

Phil

To Gomp ‘I commented about March 30 Anti -Bullying Day Saying it may also not be fair to the defendants and that it may hamper thier ability to move on.Is it fair to the defendants who just like Victoria would have thier names put in the news agian and we would definatly see BH on the video . Or if victoria is behind this then does this over ride the defendants concern for the greater good.. I also said that it could be the perfect venue for them to make a meaningful contribution to make ammends as either part of a plea deal or as a way to get thier dignity back and do some good and to demonstrate the true remorse that we have talked about . I am addressing this to you because this seems to be the sort of thing that you give alot of thought to in regards to this case .What are your views on this .Every one else jump in as you see fit.
“Peace Maker” has such a nice ring to it , it does suit you.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Phil –

Always when their is a he said she said type of situation logic and common sense have to apply.
In this case it is they say against she says.

I am wondering who was it that went into the store to buy Victoria a drink? I am assuming, correct me if I am wrong, it was not Victoria herself. Sending a bloodied and beaten victim into a CVS would not be a wise move. CVS has cameras. Surely if this is an issue of content the tapes would have been siezed by the prosecution. The mystery could easily be solved in that way. Assuming it was not Mercades herself. Just wondering.

Also any potential witnesses at the CVS a clerk, etc. I do not know the facts on that one. However, lets assume none of this information is available. Then you would have to go with which is the more logically of the two stories. Who has the most to gain by making up a lie? Who has shown the most consistency backed up by facts and who has lied from the beginning.

The judge or jury for lack of any concrete evidence would have to reason this one out with logic. One story does not add up. One story rings with more truth and common sense. So I am with you this is a real problem for the defense.

I have continued to state that the worst defense is to put Victoria on the stand and make her cry. Then you can also factor in Cara Murphy as a witness. If Kayla plea’s out would her testimony change? I do not know why they think a plea deal is not to their advantage at this time. We have come a long way from lets blame the rape victim for what she is wearing. Horrible defense for these girls.

Victoria has been in legal trouble as well. She by no means is a perfect angel. No one is. She has made some very bad decision in her life. However, perhaps like you said this will make her a tougher opponent to deal with then someone who is not as street smart.

It would have been a very wise move for these families to have paid for the medical bills. Would that not be admitting guilt though? Even though we know they inflicted the damage no dispute their. Oops sorry. Yes there is some of the parents and their lawyers have stated Victoria made this seem worse than it was. She blew it out of porportion. The medical records will stop that nonsense.

None of these victims or their families has shown any action towards showing remorse or taking responsibility. Simply stating we wanted to say sorry means nothing when you are not backing it up with actions. Some actions have been taken. To defend the names of the defendants alone.

So agree with you totally. Go ahead and put them all on the stand. Let them tell their side. Show the tape. Show the medical records and pictures after the beating. Who is a judge or jury more likely to believe?

This is why I have a harder time than Gomp thinking this will have a happy ending. No move towards actions of remorse. Actions showing the complete lack of further caring for the victim. Also, the blame the victim or sheriff is really going to hurt all of these girls. No move to take any kind of responsibillity.

Here is where I disagree with the Lindsays. I would drag everyone of these girls and their families into civil court. Do not know if they plan to do that in the future or if it is to late? Any money anyone of these families or girls would ever gain should go directly to the victim. Show me that and you will who me remorse. I am sure the Lindsays are having an extremely difficult time making their mortgage payments to. Who deserves the compensation for that one? The whole thing is a stomach turner. Hopefully justice will be served in ALL of these issues.

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January 11, 2009

christina garcia

Do you guys not like Dr. Phil because of helping with the bail or because you feel I was taken advantage of in a desperate time and exploited? This is very important for me to know. Thanks

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Amy- Really, I would much much much rather be in sunny Florida right now than in NYC. Enough snow, ice, and cold. Well, if I get all my business straightened out maybe I can take a trip down there by the end of 2009. Wonder if they will have finished up this case by then or just keep on setting more pre-trial hearings. The one scheduled for Jan. 20 is described as a status hearing, and that may only mean that the defendants get to accept or reject the plea deal. Some guys I know who have been through the court system say that probably means more pre-trial hearings to come, especially if they continue to plead not guilty. And their cases were not as complicated as this one, with five defendants each with a different story to tell. So, yes, there may be plenty more time for resentful feelings to keep festering and as I said that can help nobody except the attorneys. The weather report for Lakeland today says partly cloudy, high 79 degrees. Maybe some parts of Lakeland are more clouded over than others. hmmm….

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Gomp –

I Don’t live in Lakeland I get to enjoy one of the beaches. The weather down here has truly been spectacular. Although, I sure would enjoy seeing some snow for the winter. I have only seen it once and enjoyed playing in it ever minute. Makes you feel like a kid. However, I will take the sunshine anyday. Even if your trip is in the winter our winters have been warm. You should really enjoy this relief from the snow.

It is sad to think more status hearings and pretrails are coming. I should think even with different stories their is sufficient tangible evidence for this case to have come to an end by now. Another year would benefit the lawyers however since I assume all will continue to collect their fees. Makes you wonder how any of these families can afford all of these lawyers fees. Some of them would have to be getting help from some outside soures don’t you think?

There are always parts of Florida that are cloudy than others. Right now mine has no wind chill factor. Perhaps other cities do. A few counties away can make a big difference. A few miles can make a big difference for that matter:)

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Christina-

Personally I always disliked Dr. Phil. He is an aggressive self-promoter who doesn’t care about the people he pretends to help. He only cares about himself and his ratings. When I heard he was bailing out one of the defendants (I didn’t know which one) it made me feel sad. Remember it was only a short time after he got involved in the Brittany Spears disaster. I never liked Brittany Spears much but I felt sorry for her when she was going through the crisis that put her in the hospital. One comedian (Dennis Miller) even said he was going to stop making jokes about Brittany Spears because he didn’t want to be remembered as the guy who pushed her over the edge and made her commit suicide. But Dr. Phil didn’t have that much concern for Brittany Spears, he went ahead and invaded her privacy anyway.
People stopped him from interfering and he backed off. Now, think about this. Here was Ms. Spears going through a terrible crisis and Dr. Phil offering his assistance. If people close to Ms Spears really thought Dr. Phil could offer any useful help at such a desperate time, why would they not accept it? I think they chased him away because they knew he has no expertise and only wanted to use Ms Spears’ difficulties to enhance his own reputation.

And I think he had nothing positive to offer Mercades as far as counseling or advice, though I’m happy she got out of jail. I only wish it had been someone beside Dr. Phil. I do think it is a difficult decision to make when someone offers help in a bad situation and Ms Spears had a lot of financial resources that you don’t have so it was easier to say no in her case than in your situation. I only say you need to be careful with someone as powerful and unscrupulous as Dr. Phil because he will exploit your misfortune to make himself look good and it won’t be good for Mercades psychologically.

It’s too bad Montel Williams is gone, I think he really cares about all the victims of violence, and maybe we can coax him out of retirement to do a special on this case. If any of those celebrity hosts could have brought healing to Victoria and all the other girls, I think it would have been Montel.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

To Christina ‘
I have been reading the topix site and there was a series of post listing crimes as bad or worst than what happened with Victoria . Not just a couple but a few pages worth . In every or most or all concerning adults the bail was lower or much lower than the bail levied against the ones involved in this case .

In my opinion you are 100% right in your claims that the high bail set was punitive and unneccacary, These girls were not a flight risk and it just put extra unwarranented finacial burdens on the family and extra unrefundable cost in Bondsman fees. i know you have brought some examples yourself and for my part i just dismissed them because of my own negativity that i had towards you at the time .. I obviously believe in law and order as do most. .We in the public domain can judge the defendents as we see fit . This can never be allowed in courts. The bails should have refelected the seriousness of the crimes as they have related to past cases .
If i had a daughter in jail and i did not have the means to make bail then i may have done the same thing . You seem to me to be pretty smart so i don’t know if you were taken advantage of or that it just served both your interest .
I hate Dr Phil Because he is self serving and takes advantage of peoples real problems without really helping and he is ruining the perfectly good name of Phil.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Gomp –

I agree with you about Dr. Phil. He is all for ratings and does not offer not have much to offer except money. So this would not have been a good move for Mercades. He wanted exclusive rights to this ‘story’.

The only thing he had to offer was bail money and a promise of more money to come in the future when the interview would have taken place. Is that helping Mercades cope with remorse and asking for forgiveness? No. Is it enticing to someone with little resources. Some people yes. Look how quickly he pulled the offer off the table when the public was outraged. Does not show an interest in helping anyone in a useful way.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

I would also like to know if he extended such offers to any of the other girls. Would they all not be worthy of his expertise and guidance? Did he offer to help the victims family with their medical bills? Totally insincere easy to see through from day one.

However, the end result was Mercades did get bonded out of jail with no further cost to her family. Her bail was set extremely high. Not a fair amount in my opinion. She could still be sitting in jail waiting for this trial to begin. Bail was paid and Mercades is out of jail. No further money was gained through the tragedy of another. No further emotional damage done to any of these girls. That is the main priority in this instance.

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January 11, 2009

Garland

Hi, guys, I didn’t know that this discussion was continued over here.

Anyway, I do have to agree with you, Gomp &amp Amy about Dr. Phil. He is an ass. I thought that I could handle it for this sixth season &amp after the former incidents with the Britney Spears scandal &amp having his staff bailing Mercades out of jail. Not only that, let’s the very young couple get away with stealing about the Engagement Ring, etc, as well as turning in the Steve Wilkos wannabe when I saw him blasting some of his guests from ” Dr. Phil’s Get Real Retreat.” But the final straw that came for me was when it had to do with his topic which was called “Omaha Mall Shooting: A Mother&rsquos Guilt.” (Does anyone know or remember that?)

This is off-topic &amp I’m sorry if this is so long, but it needs to be said.

Dr. Phil had railroaded this mother (Molly) all because she wasn’t in her sons life (because she had lost custody when he was very young), &amp was going very lightly on his step-mother &amp his father! Like it was her fault they were divorced. Guess what? The kid LIVED with his father, &amp the father is the one who removed the mother from the situation. Robert lived with them, but they’re the ones who were absent from his life! He wasn’t fatherless, he was motherless due to the actions of his father. I’m sure that his mother made some bad decisions back then, but Dr. Phil was being [B]way[/B] too harsh on her.

She should not be blamed for this. It seems she was hung out to dry because she gave up her visitation. Unless a person has been forced to go broke paying horrible attorneys to fight an ex husband, they should not judge. It causes depression, and makes you lose your confidence as a parent. The only thing that the courts care about is the ability to pay a lot of money. The one with the most money wins. The child is not always better off with the parent with the most money. The one thing that I do not agree with about Molly is that she smoked pot with her child. Where is Robert’s father in all this? You know, the one who owned the gun and had it in the closet? Too chicken to be on Dr. Phil? Give this woman a break. At least she had the guts to put herself out there.

Should his mother feel guilty? Perhaps but only for being absent during his life. I don’t believe her relationship with him at the time of the shootings was close enough for her to have been able to predict something like this. Should his father feel guilty? No, his father did everything he could to get help for his son, including ending his second marriage because the step mother he had threatened to kill could never come to terms with the possibility of him moving back into their home. His father picked him over his wife, thats a pretty noble thing for a man to do. Is there a problem with the system…..you bet there is, and although no one can truley be blamed for this except the person who did it, the court system had a chance to do some things differently and did not. This boy was mentally ill and everyone knew it, he had no empathy for anyone or anything as documented over and over again in his medical records. We have a society full of people with mental disorders that end up being dealt with in a the crimnal court systems, if we had a better system in place to really help these individuals, and to recognize when they can’t be helped or cured, maybe our crime rates would be lower and prison over crowding wouldn’t be as bad as it is.

People make mistakes, &amp nobody’s perfect. What about [B]your[/B] life, Phil? Huh? I feel sorry more for Molly due to the way that Phil has been treating her. Society is to blame, not the parents!

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January 11, 2009

Garland

I also believe, Phil &amp Amy, that Victoria’s past does not need to be revealed in any way, as that has nothing to do with the case at all. Sadly, lawyers &amp defendants will do everything in their power to bring down victims like Victoria in any way possible, &amp it makes me sick.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Amy- you like snow if you see it once every five or ten years. If you live with it all the time, you hate it. Same with the Staten Island ferry. There was a time when I had to ride that ferry every day to work. There was nothing I hated more and I would do anything to avoid it, like driving over bridges and paying tolls and parking fees and gasoline just to not have to deal with that miserable ferry. I guess it’s like that with everything that is dragged out too long, like for instance waiting for a trial to get over with. Whatever we may think about what is going on in the minds of the perpetrators right now, whether they are able to put things out of their minds or not, whether or not they have all kinds of angry and hostile feelings, this whole mess must be having a profound effect on some subliminal level. You’d think one day they would just tell their lawyers, “enough! Let’s get it over with!” Anyway, I would think that if I were in their position and of course I’m not. Still, I can’t imagine that any of them are enjoying the waiting and not knowing anything for sure about the future. It could be anything from no punishment to a very severe punishment, and even though the consensus is that the sentences wouldn’t be too extreme how can we be sure? Waiting and uncertainty can be a pretty bad punishment in themselves.
Meanwhile, these girls are getting older and losing time they could be spending in school and planning a future.

Phil-I absolutely agree with your observations about Victoria. She definitely isn’t the traditional “good girl” and that is why she was able to make that phone call and avoid living a life of terror. It makes you wonder how many girls are in the situation of Victoria but without the courage to confront their tormentors. So many girls (and of course not just girls) live miserable lives in bondage to some oppressor, either physically or mentally or both.

It seems very much to the point as I look at tonight’s MSNBC lineup. 7 o’clock: Out of control teenagers caught on camera and that means a replay of the infamous beating video.
8 o’clock: Sex slaves in America.
9 0’clock:Josef Fritzl keeps his daughter imprisoned in a cellar for 24 years… And those are just the tip of the iceberg.
How I wish we could see Victoria take an active part in bringing these matters to light. And yes, I wish the others would have some kind of conversion and join the good fight.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Garland, welcome back. I had forgotten about the case you mentioned, and it is really not off-topic, I think, because it is more proof of what we have been saying about Dr. Phil. We all seem to agree about his true agenda, self-aggrandizement, and this should help Christina make up her mind about him. At the very least, if Christina deals with this man, be careful. What if he decides to have her and Mercades on and does one of those “ambush” shows? He could berate Christina (the way Steve Wilkos might berate some vile criminal on his show) for being a horrible parent and being responsible for everything that went wrong in Mercades’ life. Then he could say a few soothing words to Mercades and claim credit for himself for turning her life around with his sage advice. And the clueless audience would applaud wildly and praise him as a saviour. Too far-fetched? I don’t think so.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Also I don’t trust Oprah and as for Tyra Banks, I’m not sure. Tyra has smart producers who make her look good by selecting only easy cases for her to deal with and they probably wouldn’t touch the Lakeland case, which needless to say isn’t easy. I wonder if anyone here has any comment on my making an exception for Montel Williams? Am I the only one who thinks he is really sincere? Please help me out on that one and of course feel free to disagree.

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Amy, I’m impressed that you knew what NASCAR means.

And who knows what goes on in Brittini Hardcastle’s mind. She obviously likes to be in charge and dish out punishment to those alot weaker than she is like Tori.

Christina, I never liked Dr. Phil at all even when he appeared on “Oprah”. I found him pompous and arrogant then and I still do today.

Garland, the defense is grasping at straws by making issues of Tori’s past and alleged problems. That is the only way to take the attention of the videotaped crime of their clients outrageous and cruel assault of Victoria. Tori should continue to hold her head high. And the girls that assaulted Tori should have to spend a half an hour getting an earful from Tori and then asnother half an hour spent with Tori’s fierce not to be messed with little sister Kelsie who would be glad to give those gilrs a reality check. )

Enjoy the snow Gomp. ) I hear those of you in the northeast are having a rough winter. That’s one of the things I don’t miss about New York.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Well said Scott
but lets give Victoria a camera just to make those 17 seconds good
Ooo Ya baby

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January 11, 2009

Phil

To Scott
All the good points Amy has made and you get impressed that she knows what NASCAR means you Southern’s are all a like I could just throw a snowball at the lot of you (LOL)

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Phil- The South will rise again and then you’ll be sorry. lol

I haven’t commented any more on the Victoria Lindsay anti-bullying day because I’m still waiting to see if there is any response from Unknown on Topix, sometimes that could take a few days. I go back and forth about it in my mind because there is no clear answer as to whether it would help or hurt either Victoria or the others. You start with something that is a disaster, the beating, and you look for something positive out of it. In one sense it is like looking for something positive out of a train wreck, isn’t it? Of course people do survive train wrecks and move on. But what if you have a train wreck with casualties and that accident were shown again and again on national TV and people downloaded it and showed the video to their friends? BTW there was a case just recently where some emergency technician got in trouble for taking photos of victims of accidents he responded to and posting them, I think on myspace (I think Trench knows the case I’m talking about, in Kentucky I think?)

And really, there is more here than a train wreck. A beating is not an accident, whether it was planned or not, it involves deliberate action on the part of an attacker. It’s bad enough to take pictures of accident victims, but to take pictures of a beating you yourself caused, well that takes it to a whole different level. We can not apply any familiar standards to judge what needs to be done. My first impulse is to say, “leave Victoria alone. She doesn’t need this kind of attention.” And then I say, “This is precisely what she needs to overcome the potentially lifelong effects of this horrible event, even if she needs to overcome her initial reluctance to participate.” So I am kind of stuck between these two extremes, and I think it is up to Victoria, she does hold all the cards here, but does she realize that?

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Gomp
And what about the defendants ?
Should they be the poster chidren for bullying ‘If they do not get on board.
but Victoria does or is it too late for them and are they already the poster teens for bullying or shoud they even have an imput,Is it fair for BH to have to see this every March 30 after she has paid her debt .
I don’t know myself . But interesting questions .
Christina do you have any views on this that you could share without compormising your delicate situation in what you can freely comment on
here at this site . Would this cause more harm for Mercades after she has met her legal obligations .

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January 11, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,
There is at least one thing we can agree on, this case does need to come to a close either way. I am so tired : ( and so is my daughter

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Phil, throw all the snowballs you want. They aren’t getting to Amy and I. )

Gomp, I’m not as happy with Oprah as I once was. But I still kind of trust her. And I am sure Tyra Banks would love to do a 2 day special on the assault of Victoria Lindsay with interviewing Tori on day one and getting all the girls together again on day 2. That’s how Tyra likes to do things. Back in 2007 there was a middle school fight in Ohio that got alot of publicity where one girl got demolished by a bigger girl. But that fight was over fast and the bigger girl let up on the beaten girl and avoided hurting her. The beaten up girl had the girl who pounded her to deal with and the girl’s friends as well if she tried to run for it. There was no way out just like with Tori having to deal with April’s friends if she tried to run for it. As cat like quick as Tori probably is there was no way she could evade all of those girls and make it out of the house without getting a whipping. This case in Ohio was mentioned at the conclusion of Tori’s People magazine issue. Tyra loves this kind of stuff and did a show on girl bullying and had both girls involed in the Ohio middle school beatdown on her show along with some of their family members. But that fight was baout 1/10th as bad as the assault on Tori and Tyra loved doing a show on it. Can you imagine Tyra doing a show or 2 on Tori’s assault and all the girl drama and gossip surrounding it? Tyra would love that and the ratings bump she would get and don’t think that hasn’t crossed her mind. And I am sure Tyra knows Dr. Phil’s show bailed out Mercades Nichols and I’m also sure Tyra would like to be the first talk show to do a feature on the assault on Tori.

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January 11, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,
After Mercades does what she needs to do I feel it is detramental to have her speak, nobody has heard her side of anything. Only mom’s big mouth haha…she needs to be heard and that is a fact. As far as who well, Tyra is on my short list of people who’s I’d let interview her, but I don’t know yet

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January 11, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv please stop making things up as you go along, its in the statements that there was a cooler from the beach or something with soda, so NO!, they didn’t say ” oh lets not send Tori in cause shes all beat up and we’ll get in trouble!!! For some reason in this case people twist things around and then a week down the road someone remembers what you said but mistakes it as a fact, I am begging you to stop doing that PLEASE!

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January 11, 2009

christina garcia

And Phil, before I went and borrowed all that money for the attorney and bail I wanted to do what you mentioned but her first attorney said No Way!

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Scott, the one show I saw on Tyra like that involved two very young girls, about 13 years old. The video looked brutal but the two girls seemed like innocent children when they sat on the couch and they seemed to reconcile, while their family members remained angry. I don’t know if it’s the same case as the one you refer to. But that show made me think that Tyra focused only on that kind of case where the two participants held no serious grudge against each other, and it made Tyra look so wise and powerful though she had done nothing to bring about the reconciliation. Being a peacemaker can’t be that easy. )

Anyway I think that before any celebrities take too much credit there has to be some preliminary work on the part of the perpetrators to come to terms with their own feelings. The road to reconciliation must start with both them and Victoria. Whether it is on a TV show or at an “anti-bullying day” rally, it won’t be easy for the attackers and their victim. It would be a delicate balancing act to put the bitterness behind them while at the same time using that event as a foundation for cooperation.

Maybe I’m judging Oprah and Tyra too harshly, but I do think you have to be careful when dealing with rich powerful people even if they have the reputation of being benefactors of humanity. And meanwhile we may still be a long way from having the courts do their part in resolving the whole thing.

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Christina, I hope you are in for the long haul with this case becaue it doesn’t look like it will end any time soon. Unless you know something we don’t and I’m sure you do.

And Christina, most lawyers would advise Tori to file civil suits against those who were arrested for her assault? Maybe you can give us some insight as to what might happen with civil suits. Most posters on this blog and Topix think there will be civil suits. But I have my doubts. What do you think?

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Let me stress that the video is out there forever. How many thousands of copies have been downloaded and are circulating. How many “connoisseurs” of this kind of sick entertainment are viewing it at this moment? Just now, the video was shown again on MSNBC. When the subject of TV interviews and rallies comes up, we have to remember that the story is already out there and both Victoria and her attackers are in the same boat in this respect. For all of them their lives have been altered permanently, there is no going back to the way it was before. Let’s hope they get the kind of guidance they need to work toward a resolution for the sake of all of them and for the benefit of society. And the kind of guidance that is needed to overcome such an intractably difficult problem requires more than human effort, it requires spiritual assistance.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Christina
Thanks for the replys. if it wasn’t for lawyers who would need lawyers .
Can you please clarify your statement that it would be detremental for Mercades but she should get her storey out seems to be oppisite thoughts but i am probally just not understsnding what you think is best

Gomp said
there is more here than a train wreck. A beating is not an accident, whether it was planned or not, it involves deliberate action on the part of an attacker. It&rsquos bad enough to take pictures of accident victims, but to take pictures of a beating you yourself caused, well that takes it to a whole different level.

Even though Gomp has called for understanding and compassion of all the people involved Like Christina and Mercades
the above statement once again proves clearly his understanding of events that took place Great observation Gomp.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Christina –

When I am wrong I will admit it. I did look up the original affidavits on the ledger. It said they gave her a soda. I tryed to pull up the 911 call however was unable. She mentions the soda there as well. Maybe she said brought on their and I thought she said bought. So really not trying to make things up.

Of course just like everyone else on this blog, I was making a scenario of CVS. Simply stated if they did buy her a soda maybe it would be on camera. Even stated that I did not know the facts on all of this. Just asking others opinions or what further they might know. I have stated several times they are better at accessing sites then me.

I am still wondering if you have had time to google the ledger to see that Phil and I were not making things up about the car ride. You mentioned that no further. I assume you have since you did not respond once finding it was in black and white. However, you do seem to know exactlly what was said about the soda. Once again from the affidavits. I dont know if you are referring to the ones on the Ledger those are the only ones I have to go by.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Scott, upon careful consideration I think your idea of Tyra doing a two day special could work. I think you could have Victoria one day and Mercades the other day, and then maybe try for some sort of reconciliation. If it could be done with the other girls, well, that would be great but will they be ready any time soon? That’s out of our hands, and I don’t think Tyra or anyone else has the power to make it happen until they are ready of their own accord. What if they got on the show and kept blaming the victim? Can we be sure they wouldn’t do that? I believe in my heart, however, that it could work with Mercades and if she goes on Tyra and tells her story and expresses regret for her betrayal of her friend, it might move the others to take responsibility for their actions. You are right, Scott, I think Tyra would jump at the opportunity. Better her than Oprah, I say!

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Yes Gomp that’s the show. The 2 girls seemed to reconcile while their relatives remained angry. You have some memory. And isn’t it interesting that a 13 year old girl let up on her beaten foe and let her get up and leave instead of beating her and beating her and beating her which is what happened to Tori. That beating on Ohio in 2007 was videotaped as well. But the 13 year old girls handled the ending of that beating much better than the 17 year old girls beating Tori did. But it’s that kind of show and format that Tyra Banks likes and I am sure she would love to examine the Victoria Lindsay assault on her show as long as she was able to interview the participants and get every ounce of publicity out of it.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

This is really a general statement to everyone as we are all discussing talk shows. Talk shows, no matter who the host, are just what they are. Shows made to be sensationalized and put on t.v. for ratings and money of course.

Has anyone every thought that no talk show would be helpful in this case or many others? These hosts are not professionals. The people who can truly provide help to everyone involved have gone to school for many years and are trained to provide effective treatment for anger management, etc.

So I would suggest that no talk shows would be beneficial. They would either bash the defendants further or look like they can offer them the guidance to cure whatever problems they have. These whos are about nothing but profitting from others miserys.

Gomp – I to truly admired Montel Williams. He did seem to be genuine in his concern of worthy causes. Unfortunately for him he has his own life threatening battle to contend with. I hope he is doing well and will be a champion for his own cause now. He has served others well.

As for the south rising again God forbid. I think the entire country needs to rise again. A rapidly declining economy, job losses, home losses what a mess we are in.

Funny how people take things for granted I can look at the beach and over look its beauty 90% of the time because of easy access. Others can long for it. You can be tired of the Staten Island Ferry while I would look around in amazement. Each should be appreciated for the incredible beauty they can offer.

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January 11, 2009

AmyV

Gomp –

What if Victoria does not want the petition signed? Would that not be a sign that she wants to just move on with her life? Would that opportunity be afforded her if some of these girls choose to be on the talk show circuit.

You are obviously right about this tape already being all over the internet and t.v. So her wishes would not be honored I would imagine. Suppose she said no. I do not want anything to do with further promoting the violence of this video. She as the victim has the most right to say that. However, if just one of these girls decides to take this road is she not once again being further victimized? Especially when we know this would be quite profitable to anyone who chooses this.

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Gomp, Tori should do Tyra’s show if it’s right for her. I hope talking about the case publicly is theraputic for Tori and helps her move on.

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January 11, 2009

Scott

Interesting take Amy about bhow not doing talk shows would be beneficial for Tori. You might be right.

I also admire Montel Williams. He seems like a genuine decent man.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Amy- In principle, it is true that no talk show would be beneficial. The hard work of accepting responsibility and facing the need for remorse would have to precede any TV appearances, in this case as well as any other. The problem is that this case has already been sensationalized, first by the video they made themselves, and then by the way the video was shown and exploited for ratings even by responsible news shows. That’s why the road to healing must include a detour through the sensationalistic world of talk shows. If not a show like Tyra then maybe Nancy Grace or Greta or Oreilly who at least have some credentials as news commentators. The video is out there and it will be a problem for Victoria and the others forever unless it is dealt with in its own terms. Take the example Phil brought up, say ten years from now Ms Hardcastle”s child is watching TV and the video is brought up (like it was tonight again on MSNBC) and the child asks, “Mommy, is that you? Why are you hitting her?” I think it would be helpful for that child if her mother Ms Hardcastle could show him (or her) another video, of the occasion when Ms Hardcastle publicly apologizes to the person she is hitting so hard in the first video. It’s unfortunate that the making of the video has complicated the process of healing like this. I don’t think there are easy answers. But of course the healing process can’t get under way without the first phase, that is the court process, either through plea deals or a trial. And then comes therapy of some kind. Then maybe TV appearances.

Again I have to make a separate issue of Mercades since I saw the MSNBC special. There was Victoria being beat up and the name Mercades was clearly intoned by the announcer, but Mercades was not doing the beating. And I know there are many people who haven’t seen the video and many who see the video and associate the name Mercades with the person doing the beating. And for Mercades and her family I think is important to point out the misidentification.

I agree that it would not be good to have these girls given a platform to further bash the victim. The show’s producers would have to make sure ahead of time whether they had a change of heart. If not, there could be no interview, because it is not in the power of the host, like Tyra, to bring about some kind of conversion. Tyra knows her job is to be a moderator, nothing more. Unlike Dr. Phil, she does not pretend to be capable of bringing healing. That must come from the perpetrators themselves.

And you are right about Montel. He has his battle to fight.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Amy and Scott- On the question of how Victoria feels about the petition, I put that question out on Topix yesterday, got no response yet. If Unknown doesn’t respond, I will take that as a sign that Victoria probably doesn’t want it. Still, it is complicated because the video is there. I think that Victoria can move on with her life and may feel different about some things eventually. We will have to wait and see. Time heals all wounds but the video can always reopen them and the answer Victoria would give today may not be the answer she would give in three more years.

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January 11, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Montel is hawking the cheesy Obama coins now. Just sayin’.

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January 11, 2009

gompertz

Amy- of course if any of the girls wants to exploit the video for profit in any way, that would prove that they are truly evil. It’s always been a possibility and some of the perps may take the low road and forever exclude themselves from decent society, just like their lawyers have done. Again we have to wait and see.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

Scott and AmyV
As far as the girls never being friends I would have to agree.First of all there may be prison time for some and certainly parole conditions to be sure that may hinder who they are even aloud to hang with.Mercades and Kayla may still remain friends they stuck together with thier versions of events so far .If I were Aprils parents I would not let her anywhere near BM. Of cource unless BH has graduated from anger management with flying colours I can’t see Mercades or Kayla being friends with her . I must admit I do not know all the lines of friendship in this case . Were Victoria and BM ,friends . I don’t really know .But , forever is a long time . I know for alot of them Church was the only place to go to escape the confines of house arrest and cerfew restrictions ,and mayby some of those messages about honesty ,responsibility and forgivness will eventually mean enough to get closure .I have certainly seen stranger things happen.

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January 11, 2009

Phil

I think these types of shows would benifit the people like us who have taken such a personel interest in this case. I think the defendants have performed for the public enough to last them and us a lifetime . When they have served whatever sentence gets imposed . they owe society and Victoria nothing else (lawsuits excluded ). This is the whole pupose of what they are going through .Doing these types of shows has a whole diffent meaning then particpating in an anti-Bulling day ..Dr phil has taught me one thing .Healing should be done in private and not for the pleasure of a television audience.Because then we are talking about apperance fees,are we not If any of the defendants need to get thier story out then call the ledger they will put it to paper not edit what you say but will not pay either .Without payment i wonder how important it will be to get the defendants side of the story out.Scott or Gomp if you are talking about Mercades or any of the other girls getting paid to be on these shows then I would say ther are much better avenues for healing then cutting any of these girls a cheque .Again Victoria excluded .

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January 12, 2009

Scott

Trench, I saw that Montel Williams is selling Obama coins. It seems a bit cheesy. But Williams wants to be a part of history and from his point of view I don’t blame him at all.

Gomp, it might be too soon for Tori to have an anti bullying rally built around the publicity of her assault. And the wounds of the assault and publicity on the assault might still be too frsh in Tori’s minds.

Phil, it’s true that real healing should be done in private. And I think the defendants should lay low after they have served their most likely light sentences. I do not want them in the media saying that Tori did this and Tori did that and that’s why we trapped her. Oops I mean ran into Tori at Mary Nichols house while Mary was not so coincidentally at work and not home to supervise all those girls hanging out with Mercades and Tori.

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January 12, 2009

Phil

Scott
Oops indeed .
An anti -bullying day is to me in the same league as if BrittH talked to young students about how bad it is to do these things .It would be a sign of true change and a desire to help others make better choices then they did .
A paid appearence wether it is Tyra Banks , Larry King or Oprah
will always disgust me . The thought of anyone of the six that were in that room to say this is what really happened .How much again is this interview worth is revolting . There are to many other ways to get your story out . Set up a blog .Give a free interview.
.If Victoria was in this for the money then we would have seen alot more of her than we have .Nearly a year and hardly anything and no stones thrown at her “Friends “Insert Oops here” assailents.
What can they say that could not be said at trial . This is the fourm that has been set aside to set the record staight ,if the defendants are so sure of thier side take it there not on tv.

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January 12, 2009

christina garcia

Telissa may surprise me but I don’t think she wants that, of course they need help with bills, and I wanted to step up to the plate within the first month! As far as just sueing to sue? No, I think the family knows that between the punishment that will be handed out and the extreme public reaction I feel they will think that is enough.

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January 12, 2009

Phil

Christina
you are probally right about Victoria’s parents . You know them and we don’t but it seems to us that they have never wanted to seek revenge .
I wonder though if that will change if a trial gets nasty and Victoia is viciously attacked by the families attornies.

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January 12, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,

I am saying it would be detrmental to her reputation and what people think about her, in other words it will be in her best interest to talk to people

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January 12, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,

I wasn’t trying to ignore you hon, I just don’t have the time or energy anhmore to go looking for details of what people say, I have my book and CD of the discovery, which are not online because that would mean FREE for the public and Polk County doesn’t work like that. I myself had to pay 70.00 for what I have, and if I had a scanner I would make it free for you guys. But I don’t have one : ( I only know whats in black and white in the discovery. The judge won’t be going off of the Ledger’s article nor the chopped up job they do. Look just one example someone was talking about The Ledger retracting or correcting thier mistakes right? Well, remember when it was said that all the girls including Mercades recieved an offer? When I corrected Sean at the Ledger, oh yeah he corrected it the next day alright, but you would need a magnifine glass to have seen it. This is how it is in Polk County aka Mayberry.

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January 12, 2009

Scott

Christina, I also don’t think Talisa wants to drag the whole thing out. People will be outrgaed at the Lindsay’s but I don’t think there will be civil suits filed.

Phil, look at what the defense attonies have done to Tori before thr trial. It would only get worse with a trial.

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January 12, 2009

Garland

Hi, Scott, you’re saying that if Talisa were to drag this out (are you talking about the case, civil lawsuits, etc.), you’re saying that people would be upset. Why is that? Plus something needs to be done at trial to prevent further damage to Victoria.

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January 12, 2009

Phil

To Christina
I have posted a signd statement from Victoria Re the kidnapping and drive to CVS.You say it is not true then say you have proof but you can’t get it to us .Well to me it is simple ,.Unless you show me proof to counter the proof of a detailed statement from Victoria you should not expect me or anybody else to believe differently. Read the above statement again if you must. I don’t like having to convince you one on one of Mercades guilt but when you chalenge strong eveidence in the case with none of your own it will happen ,from me as well as AmyV
There is no way the SOA would walk into court with these charges if they either knew or believed the eveidence was not there to support this . The consequenses are to severe for for the defendents and for any lawyer who would do this

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January 12, 2009

Phil

To AmyV and Scott
I used some sarcasim and a silly fictisious conversation to prove a point about the kidnapping and drive to CVS
.There is this guy from Topix named Scott from Vero Beach Flordia that also used sarcasim to talk about the trip and the “niceness” of apoligizing to Victoria and buying her a drink.
Again From Scott on Topix April 16/08

“Brittany Mayes and Mercades Nichols drove Tori to meet a friend at a South Lakeland CVS, bought her a drink (I suppose Tori was complaining about the blood in her mouth) and actually apologized to Victoria for pummelling her half to death. I guess Tori’s endless pleas to stop hitting her and her understandable non stop crying and quivering finally took a toll on the girls”.
paints such a powerful picture in such few words .

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January 12, 2009

Scott

Garland. I of course people people who are firends or relatives of the defendants will be upset if their are civil suits against them. They have everyhting goinhg there way now they are drsagging the pretrial stuff out since last summer and they don’t believe there will be any civil suits filed. They think the Lindsay’s just want this case to go away.

Thanks Phil. That was me on Topix.

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January 12, 2009

christina garcia

I never commented about thier sincerety people, Mercades didn’t her the drink either. I was only stating faCTS, she was given the drink out of a cooler in the car. Wow, maybe I should ignore incorrect statements and details on here, because when I answer questions and correct falseness this is the response I recieve.

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January 12, 2009

Phil

Christina
You said in an earlier post a few days ago Jan 10
“No sir and ma&rsquoam, Tori called her friend and said meet us at CVS and asked Mercades to take her. Period! Its all in black and white on Tori&rsquos statements ”

in the same post’

The kidnapping is a joke, and it will not hold up in the trial. The other things that you speak about like BH threatening her and all this I don&rsquot know I wasn&rsquot there, but I know what I have read over and over again from Tori and kidnapping didn&rsquot happen.

my comment was for you saying that Victoria asked for a ride instead of being forced into the car .you have been very adamant on this major fact .Saying the charges were not true and that it is in writing . I was never concerned where the drink came from. If you thought by correcting a small point like that was why I wrote my last comment then once again I will aploigize because that was not my intention..
You have stated that the kidnapping charges are bogus . The statement from Victoria’ signed statement was posted by me Jan 10 4:45p.m. says other wise .Do you have any information that contridicts this statement.If so then i would like to see it .Until i do how would you expect myself or others to believe that Victoia went willining in the car because she requested a ride ..I truly understand that you probally have information that we do not and that it may not be in your’s or Mercades best interest to share it with us here . But i cannot go against Victoria’s written statement because you say its not true .
i hope this makes it cleaer Christina because with you more than any one else on this blog I am trying to tread as carefully as i can and still comment the way i see fit .I have no problem with you calling this as you see this .But i like anyone else that comments here i will chalenge your statements .

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January 12, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

One word to all of your post ditto. Only I am sure you will be responded to in a much more favorable light. With excuses oops…excuse me explainations without any prove to back them up.

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January 12, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

If Victoria parents want to put this case behind them they have a long way to go. First the criminal charges when they are finally over. Than the reminder with Christina’s lawsuit against the sheriff. Who knows how much longer that will keep this going.

So Victoria certainly has nothing to lose by taking this to civil court. Between the other two trials this case has a long way to go. I would encourage them whole heartedly to go after the civil suits. With the same determination that the lawyers after gone after her. What else does she have to lose? She would win hands down.

As far as making her look bad in the public eye isn’t that what these lawyers, families and some of these girls are trying so desperately to do already? Truly it could be no more tiring then enduring these ordeal for months on end.

Perhaps the true answer to that question is that Victoria’s parents truly feel that any further trials than the criminal one would be over whelming for all of these girls. Once again shows class head and shoulders above the rest. They are putting their daughter’s well being before any monetary value that can be gained at the expense of making her suffer more emotional trauma. Know these are parents to be looked up to and admired.

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January 12, 2009

Phil

AmyV
what did you think of the cut and paste From Scott’s comments on Topix .He has been commenting since the beginng and just keeps on
posting time after time these short concise gems .the above one really impressed.
Scott you are the man! and we are lucky to have you posting here as well as on Topix.

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January 12, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

I can truly believe you are exhausted hon, however what you are accusing me of making up is what is being printed in The Ledger. What is being printed is not wasting time or energy on what people say.

If you truly did not know this was on the original affidavits (allegedly) this should be of grave interest to you. The paper is claiming these are the hand written affidavits of your daughter, Kayla and Mercades.

So if these are falsified documents, not just false reporting, this would be of great interest to Mercades and your lawyer I would believe. For if Victoria claims she accepted or asked for a ride that would have totally disproven the kidnapping from the very beginning.

It too me approximately two minutes to pull up these affidavits. Much less exhausting than the 10 or 15 minutes it takes to read these post and reply. The relevance of what is said here by no mean measures up to such crucial potential evidence.

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January 13, 2009

Scott

Thank you Phil. I have always tried to be fair with this case.

Amy, I think the defense attornies feel that Tori’s reputation is easy prey since loud mouthed Glorida Allred left her as her attorney. Who is Tori’s attorney? That person has never come forward and it looks like Tori has no one legally watching her back. And as far as her parents go Tori’s dad has said he has never watched the tape and her stepmother has been very generous the Tori’s assailants to say the least. If Tori doesn’t have anyone watching her back it’s no wonder she’s been in hiding. And it’s a joke Tori moved from Lakeland. She should not have left if she didn’t want to.

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Scott
It did not sound like Victoria had any representation at her deposition. According to unkown at Topix it was SAO that was trying to protect Victoria’s interest and it was SOA that went to the judge to strike some of the questioned being asked of Victoria an . I have no idea why Victoria had no lawyer there .It could be finacial or it could be Victoria’s habit of going her own way .She may not be the easiest person to have as a client as far as having to take some one’s advice . Certainly pure speculation on my part .

It will be very interesting what Jan 20 brings .If no trial date is set to me it must mean that a plea deal is close . Again pure speculation. I hope the judge finally takes controll of this case away from the prosecuters and Defense lawyers .
Will there be one trial or seperate trials for each defendant.For example if I was Kayla i would not want a jury seeing me sitting next to BH or even Mercades. . This has not been discussed. This time next year we may still be commenting on the slow pace . God I hope not.

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January 13, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,

I understand that with the limited information out there, you and everyone else here can only see part of the picture, and I respect that, I just get a little frustrated at times with some of the comments, because I forget your information is very limited, and I know that although the case is somewhat important to you it is not important enough in your life to order the discovery from the courthouse. But without that you must remember you don’t know everything about this case. And look I am no dummy, I know the SAO have eye balls here and other places, and if I tell all on here, then guess what? They now know what our complete defense tactics are giving them time to attempt to knock it down somehow or whatever. My silence on somethings is not because I am afriad of saying something to incriminate my daughter, because I was taught along time ago, stick to the truth and you’ll always be better off. If you are an honest person how can you go wrong?

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January 13, 2009

christina garcia

Amy, why would you write me such a nice comment, and then turn around and tell Phil that I will be giving out more excuses without ” proof” not “proov”? I guess you and I need another one of our breaks huh? If you can’t understand how careful I have to be on here then so be it. I don’t care. I tried to give you hints but you just don’t catch on. One more time ” Its all in the discovery” I refuse to waste my time argueing with a newspaper that is supported by PCSO. After the case has been resolved I will then and only then turn my energy over to having Mr. Sean report what is then in black and white. Thank you.

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January 13, 2009

christina garcia

And just for everyone’s information, it really doesn’t have alot to do with the case other then Mercades being watched in more ways then one. Ms. Torres family lives right across the street from my mom’s house, which she’s there everyday of the week. I guess she won’t be watching anymore .

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Christina
You are right I do not have all the information and i do not expect you ,the mother of a defendent to provide it for me.This place is for speculations and to debate points that we feel are important . Scott and Gomp usually have different angels then AmyV or myself , That being said Christina if Gomp Or Scott said that there was no Kidnapping Amy V and I would be all over thier statements as well demanding proof while presenting our own . Sharing opinions here is a juggiling act of having respect and then having a thick skin .Sometimes i do not do very well with this myself . After all you have been through I have no doubt about the fact that you have had to develop a thick skin .You have certainly shown respect to me in your replys but I have also been attacked for giving statements without proof and that it the way it should be.
I do hope this is over soon for everyone . For us it is important but still just a past time for you it is what you are living . I now can log off and walk away from this case . I am so sorry that you cannot .

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January 13, 2009

Scott

Phil, I didn’t even recall about not not having any representation at her deposition. If that’s true it’s outrageous. No wonder why everyone feels like they can bring up Tori’s past as if it matters. I just find it hard to believe there isn’t a lawyer that would represent Tori and her best interests for free after what was done to her and in hopes that as her attorney they would get a percentage of whatever if anything Tori got in a civil suits and media appearances.

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January 13, 2009

Phil

To Scott she may have ,if so then Unknown (sounds like something out of watergate) didn’t mention the lawyer only that SAO was very upset and called an emergecy session but was overuled for the fear of the state playing favorites ,I think they use the word transparency..
Before everybody comments . I am commenting on a comment so I may got some of it wrong and have never seen the deposition or heard about this special session anywhere else.
We have had a few conversations about accuracy and just want to be fair (lol a little).

Have you heard anything about seperate trials. .read a comment on Topix forget where ,but the person said that with all the diferent lawyers and different charges that this person doubted that it would be one trial .Assuming that there is any plans to actually have a trial at any time soon.

Christina is this something that you know of and could answer

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January 13, 2009

christina garcia

Phil, I believe we will be going to trial, I can’t speak for the others. And here in Florida the State can also represent the victim, although she should Tori does not have to have her own private attorney. Trust me, someone was in there sitting with Tori telling what questions had to be answered.

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Christina
Thanks for the answer Re Victoria’s
representation.

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January 13, 2009

Amyv

Phil – I Wondered also if their were going to be five different trials. I would assume that is the way the defendants lawyers would want it.

I agree with you that Kayla would not want to be tryed the same as Brittini H., etc. Not sure how this whole thing will work. It really seems like a mess that should be sorted out through some kind of plea deals. Although, I am with you I would like to know all of the facts that only a court case could put forth.

What a nightmare for Victoria if she had to go through this five times. I would assume she has got to have a lawyer. I hope her family can afford one like some of the defendants in this case. That would be another slap in the face of justice. Even further reason to go for the civil suits. Do we have a lawyer on here anywhere?

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Hi AmyV
suffering through another snow storm so right now i don’t really like you and Scott that much .Nothing personel.hows the beach!
It would also be good stratagy for the
defense to have seperate trials , for example if Kayla’s trial is first then she would be free to testify for the others without having to take the stand at her own trial..and on and on .The danger for the defense is if kayla screws up or gets a stiff sentence then it would be bad news for the. rest. You can be sure that the defense lawyers have got together at some time to work out a mutual benificial statagy,.I think the closest thing to a lawyer here right now is you and me the “Dream Team” which of couse means were still dreaming for justice for Victoria .
I just hope that some dreams come true .

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January 13, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

The point I was trying to make is that I do not understand how this issue can be a waste of your time. Is not the kidnapping based on informaton from Victoria’s statement of some sort?

Somewhere someone is saying someone forced her in the car. You say this is not what Victoria is stating. I know full well you can not answer every question on this blog. However, would not the kidnapping charges be dropped if Victoria herself states it isn’t true? This is what I can not follow.

I can understand you can not chase down every tabloid and newspaper for misrepresentation of statements. This is a big one. It could only help Mercades cause to get the truth out if this was disproved.

Yes, we still disagree on many issues. It does seem things that others say you let slide and when I state almost the same thing you jump.
Perhaps because of past experiences on this blog. Also, I you are under an extreme amount of stress.

If we need to take a break fine. Phil will ask the same questions of you that I do anyway. Seems like it anyway. Christina, everything else aside do we really want to start correcting each others spelling. We could both have a field day with that one. However, I have not felt the need to correct your spelling or grammar.

A lot of times we are all tired on here. Maybe that is when we should all step back and take a break. I know their have been days when I have.

I have agreed with you on the most crucial parts of this case. Bail was set to high. Mercades was misrepresented as the ringleader. However, still not sure you can pin that on just one. Stated Mercades does not deserve years in adult prison. Actually, I am one of the ones who gives the most lenient answers to questions of punishment.

So for your daughter I have been more than fair. I just feel she is being put under additional stress. The talk show ciricuit would be a diseaster for any of these girls. I have stated from the beginning my problem would be if anyone but the victim made any profit at all from this case. Even if it is to be attorney bills.

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January 13, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

You can start liking Scott and I again. It has been raining all day no sun to be seen. Also, over the next few days the temperature will dip down into the 30’s 🙂 I know that may seem warm for you but it sure isn’t for us in Florida. Liking me better now?

Phil, I don’t know what these lawyers are up to. Do they really want this to go before a jury? I am sure you and I are not alone with no bashing the victim as a defense. I would say that would make up the majority of a jury. I just do not understand the legal system at all in this case.

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Christina
Again if you can answer or if you know. Will there be one trial or seperate trials for each.

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January 13, 2009

Phil

Legal systems ,I do not think are to be understood by anyone but Lawyers..Just for example take the kidnapping charge . .say Kayla gets to go to trial first and gets anthing less then a year ,House arrest ,or probation..She now testifies Victoria asked for the ride(I know ),,Then April is next she’s 14′ blames BH and BM ,gets sympathy . She then can testify for BM that there was no kidnapping,Victoria asked for a ride . .At this point no one has taken the stand at thier own trial.
For something as seious as kidnapping you will have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt .You now have 2 young well dressed ladies in court stating the oposite of an attorny maligned victim who ran away from home over 10 times. This may go a long way to present reasonable doubt. ,We believe Mercades and kayla got thier storys straight before the cops showed up .
I would imagine that BM and April the same to some degree don’t forget I do not think April ang BM gave detailed statments . you can bet the lawyers will present a united front on the charges facing all of them .
AmyV can you see who is getting left out of this , There are only 2 sure targets for the other lawyers to aim at Victoria and BritH .
They have already started unloading shots at both of theese girls.Bh is really getting her money’s worth out of her public attorny.
.Trials for the defence is about reasonable doubt not about
presenting the truth.

Rain or shine .
you will always have my best wishes

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January 13, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

I am reallly not sure who is representing Victoria. I guess at this point from what everyone is saying it would be the prosecutor? I hope she does have her own attorney.

I know the father stated he did not watch the tape at the beginning. I wonder if he has since done so? Maybe it is just to hard for him to stomach. Just think of how it makes us all feel.
I don’t know what I would want to do if this was my daughter. Perhaps, it is the only way he has to keep his anger in check.

You are right about Victoria’s stepmother she has been extremely generous to these girls. I wonder if she feels the same way know that they have been attacking her legally? Since Victoria’s parents have kept very quiet through this whole ordeal I really can’t imagine what they are thinking.

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January 13, 2009

gompertz

Phil- brilliant analysis! While I was out playing in the snow, you were home reading law books. From the beginning it appeared that Victoria would be a target of vicious defense attorneys but only later did it occur to anyone that Ms Hardcastle would be vulnerable to attack from the same sources. I remember when Kayla Hassel said fear of Ms Hardcastle prevented her from intervening. This is the same Ms Hardcastle who has a public defender, the same who is seen playing the most prominent role in the beating. And as for her ability to arouse our sympathy, well, I remember how Electronica once referred to her as “the fat bitch.” I think that’s the same Electronica who is quick to accuse us of being unfair to the other girls. Looks like the cards are stacked against Ms Hardcastle when she can’t even get sympathy from Electronica. And of course there is a defense ready, namely, that she was set up. With no known reason for her extreme anger, she can claim that she was misled by some of the others who used her fighting skills to do their dirty work and then left her to take the fall. Proving that would take a lot more dedication than an underpaid public defender would be inclined to provide. If I were a young new attorney in Florida right now, I could think of no better way to achieve notoriety than to represent Ms Hardcastle pro bono. If you lose, well, at least you tried. And if you win, you have made yourself a name as a defender of lost causes.

Now, what about Victoria? She does not need a narrative of the kind I just gave for Ms Hardcastle. If the video is not enough, and if the truth does not prevail, her situation is not hopeless. Those who support her need to face the prospect of the court failing to provide justice. I’m going to wait and see what the courts do. If Victoria is denied justice by the courts, then there will be need of another kind of approach for her. And in the end she will get justice and healing if her supporters don’t let her down, but maybe it’s not good policy to go into that before the courts have been given their chance to do the right thing.

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January 14, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,

you’re right the spelling thing was a low blow and I should’nt have done it : ( I’m sorry really. You’re right I am under alot of stress, more then you could ever know. And maybe you’re right about our past expierences being in part for me jumping all your insults, but maybe could it be that Phil and others ask me differently? I don’t expect anyone here to kiss butt, just a teaspoon of sugar mixed with the gallon of insults please ok? : )

Phil,
I’m not sure about seperate trials, I only speak for my babe, and I do want to her to have a seperate trial, sorry guys

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January 14, 2009

christina garcia

Phil you said ” We believe Mercades and kayla got thier storys straight before the cops showed up .”

wth is this?? Its all over the place that April called them and said we are saying we haven’t seen Tori in months get your stories straight and mercades and kayla said no way, we are telling them what happened! Then Newman told them they were only witnesses to the crime, talk about corruption, trickery, lies, and much more!

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January 14, 2009

Phil

Christina
It has been discussed here before and not on just one occassion . Mercades and Kalya had warrning before the cops showed up thier stories match and contridict Victoria’s the same way .It would be foolish to think that “what are we going to say ‘ did not come up . As to text messages and kidapping and those types of issues . I have not been the first to raise these issues Christina . And just because Kayla said “No way We are going to say what happened does not mean that she told the truth. Again Victorisa has been very clear that Kayla hit hit her in both statements and kayla says diiferently . Also Kayla backs Mercades with The I was scared of BH defense . As does Mercades .Were both of them scared of BH!.Both saying the same thing as to why they didn’t help where the tape shows active participation.. You Know Christina what most of us think about that defense even those that are trying to give Mercades every break .Those are the things that I am talking about . I will always believe the victims statements over the defendants .Either Victoria is lying or Mercades and Kayla are lying .I do not expect you not to believe your daughter . Just do not expect me to believe either of them because they say this is true.

Why would you think you have to apoligize for seperate trials you are her mother and you should be on her side and cetainly not on the side of the SAO who may be trying to put her in jail for years .Certainly no apolagy is expected for that .As to telling the girls that they were witnesses ,Police lying to suspects to gain thier trust and exact information is not illegle and is prasticed in all levels of investigation .

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January 14, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
Thanks again for the compliment We will see if it was brilliant or that I have watched way to much Law and order .
Please do not forget that its not only Kayla that is pointing the finger at BH as the reason they are more blamless than the charges pending .
Mercades defence so far has been the same .This could work but if there is a trial and it is not bought then it will be worse an all the trials that follow .I do believe that the same judge gets all the trials but again not sure .
Nice to have you back. Do you like have a Doctors note or something as to why you missed yesterdays discussions.(LOL)

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January 14, 2009

Phil

To Christina
Really nice reply to AmyV .Certainly not to comment for her such as the repsonse was for her .To me it is still done with ,class well done.

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January 14, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

Thank you. I believe we have both apologized to each other and have tryed to explain our perceptions of answers and questions. Perhaps it is because we are both head strong women. Also being the mother of a teenage daughter in this day and age is no picnic.

I do know a lot of pressure is put on teenage girls be tough and not disrespected. Either bully back or be bullied. That is truly not the world I wish for my daughter or yours to grow up in. This I say with utmost sincerity as I have ‘preached’ to my own daughter and her friends that their is to much violence going on.

I know everyone says that their has always been bullying. However, I see an every increasing rise in it. Especially against the girls in this generation. Victoria’s case was an extreme example.

If this case had been handled swiftlly and fairly for all of those concerned none of these girls would be going through what they are know. Yes your daughter made a grave mistake. You do not need to be reminded of this. You face this every day.

My number one concern for teenagers in this generation is to stop the violence. Stop the fighting, jumping, etc. I think our daughters deserve to know a safer world. They deserve to know they do not have to be tough to survive.

This case just seemed to bring many fears for my own daughter to the service. For all teenage girls for that matter. What were they thinking Christina? No matter what Victoria allegedly said nothing could have been worth this. It bothers me how so many can sit back and watch while another is pummeled.

I know you don’t have the answers to these questions. Of course if Mercades were my daughter I would love her, stand beside her and protect her. That is your main job as a mother. Their must still be times when you question to yourself how did things go so far.

I wonder sometimes which would be worse. Of course I know it would be if my daughter was Victoria. The girl getting beaten. Or the ones who either participated or sat back and did nothing? My love for my daughter would be stead fast however my disappointment with her would be beyond measuring. Of course you can not always let her know this I know.

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January 14, 2009

Electronica

gomp if i said brittis a fat bitch well i was mad at her for beating tori so bad and being so much bigger if your skinny and the other girls heavy well shes got advantage for sure ad tori wasnt even fighting back. so its not like im against fat ppl and its not like i think britti should get life didnt i say i dont think she was like thinking im gonne kidnap tori i said maybe she was just thinking its stupid to walk around al by yourself at night and beat up too. and maybe she was really sorry maybe she was really like thinking ok i went too far i hit her too hard maybe she meant it when she said sorry to tori. so i dont like britti thats tru but dosnt mean i think shes all bad.

and phil idk if that cop should go to prison it depends. like if she gave some info to a hit man an address or something well thats real bad. but what if like someones mom is looking for her son hes 19 and he hes mad at his parenmts and ran away and doesnt call and shes all worried and shes like tell me where hes at well maybe that cop was trying to help she did wrong but its not like prison wrong. so it depends.

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January 14, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Well I am alway glad to know I have your best wishes. Tomorrow will prove to be even colder down here. Hold on for we are in for freeze warnings. Maybe one of those snowballs might make it here now 🙂

As usual I find it difficult to reply to you. I agree with you on so many level. As Gompertz said truly a fantastic amount of “Law and Order” logic applied. However, I hope this is not the way it goes down at a trial. This case wil go on and on and on.

I have always stated I will believe Victoria’s word over any others. Besides being the victim her level of honesty has been has proven her true class. I have stated before and I feel it worth stating again she named specifically who beat her.

A lot of people in her situation could have just said they alll hit me. We know we have not seen everything on the tape. She could have been easily believed if she stated Mercades and Cara hit her as well. She did not state this even with the amount of hatred she must have been feeling.

This speaks volumes to me. Why tell the truth in a situation where she could have truly caused them a lot more trouble. Then turn around and lie about being forced into the car. That will never make sense. If she was angry enough to lie about being kidnapped she would be angry enough to say they all hit her.

Truly only one of these stories can be true. I am with you on Victorias. The others just don’t make common sense. I have no doubt their were two camps after this beating. Mercades and Kayle vs. the rest of the girls. The other girls were going to deny the whole thing&gt Further need for harsh punishment. Mercades and Kayla decided this was not a good idea. Still they told untruths of their own. Unless of course we are both proved wrong in a court of law.

Gomp –

Hi. Hope everything is going well. I know all of us have been busy. Hope you find time to build more snow men.

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January 14, 2009

Phil

Hi AmyV
Your point about which is harder being the parent of Victoria or one of the defendants is such a good question and goes to the heart of the matter in so many ways , It again shows how 30 minutes can change lives forever .It shows there is no easy answers trying to figure out the why this could happen .BH ‘s mother said I didn’t know you could be so mean ..Friends were surprised at the actions of the six in the rm .Parents I am sure had as a hard of a time recognizing thier childern as Mr Lindsay..I am not trying to be funny here . Any parent seeing there children in that video had to be more affected then we were and look at our reaction..There mouths had to be down around thier ankles ,trying to comprehend what they were seeing.
We as parents only ever wish the very best for our children .To see them at thier worst is every parents worst nightmare . This is probally why Victoria’s Mom wants justice and to give them hugs . . AmyV like you I think of the world my son has to grow up in and what it will say if action is not taken.

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January 14, 2009

gompertz

Hi everybody

Phil- If I needed to excuse my absence it would have to come from some lawyer and their notes don’t come cheap. lol

Electronica always good to hear from you. I know that you always try to be fair to everyone including Brittni Hardcastle and I don’t think she would mind if you called her fat on that one occasion. Actually she has been called a lot worse than that and many of the people who insult her are really mean people, unlike you. I agree that she may have felt genuine remorse, who can say for sure? I remember that picture of her in the jail looking so miserable and people say she is only sorry for being caught but how can we say for sure. I also agree about the deputy. We just don’t have enough information to decide if the deputy’s action was harmful or not so let’s not rush to judgment. BTW judging from the last pictures it looks like Ms Hardcastle and Ms Mayes have both lost a little weight and Victoria has gained a few pounds and that is a sign they are all taking care of their health.

Amy- I know that you and Phil are concerned about making this world safer for your children. As Phil says, it is devastating for the parent of the victim and the victimizer as well. I wonder if you remember the case of Billy Wolfe that appeared in the NY Times and the Huffington Post about the same time as the Lakeland case broke. This was a high school kid in Arkansas who was bullied for years and sometimes hit so hard he lost consciousness. The story made headlines when the parents sued some of the bullies and also the school system. The school authorities took the classic approach of blaming the victim. As usual, he had it coming, he was unpleasant, he talked trash, etc. And then they said he himself was a bully. Does this all sound familiar? Yes, it’s true sometimes the victim can become a bully himself, and maybe something like that has already happened to Victoria. The more I research this phenomenon of bullying, the more I see how pervasive it is. I just discovered the work of Dan Olweus, a Norwegian psychologist who has studied this problem all his life and is considered the world’s foremost authority on bullying. And yet I have never heard of him until tonight and I do a lot of reading. It just shows how much important work is being done on this subject that I don’t know about but I’m working on it.

One pattern that emerges is that the real bully is more often a manipulator than an aggressor and incites violence by getting others to do the actual dirty work. I have seen this again and again and I think that a jury in the Lakeland case will be familiar with this behavior and might be sympathetic to claims that Ms Hardcastle was the victim of manipulation, by whom is yet to be determined, though I have my suspicions. Of course that kind of claim by Ms Hardcastle would complicate the trial immensely and it is hard to see how all the claims and counterclaims could be dealt with in one court action. Why couldn’t there be multiple trials with more than one judge? This case has seen both Spoto and Angela Cowden playing a part, so they don’t have to rely on one judge. Anyway if the defendants attack each other it might take the pressure off Victoria. Who knows, we could see some really bizarre developments, like Victoria testifying in behalf of some defendants against others, and since most people would judge her to be truthful a jury is likely to place great value on her testimony. We might see a situation where Victoria’s testimony could be good for Ms Hardcatle and bad for another defendant. Not likely but possible. Anyway I think we will see some big surprises if there is a trial. And I do think it would be best for Mercades if her trial were separate from the others and hopefully she will get a chance for a plea bargain.

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January 14, 2009

Phil

Electronica
Welcome back,I certainly do not know enough about that case with the cops.Felony charges are serious and do not have to relate to violence .,that was my only point in bringing this up .at best if this person is found gulity would face the same hardships of a felony conviction in his future .These 5 as far as the law is concerened are being tried as adults and what they did to me is worst then giving out some info. of course I coud be very wrong because you are right if he gave Info that led to a viloent crime then that would be worse.

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January 14, 2009

Phil

Gomp
Trials can be like politics you are so right this could go every anywhere and every where .as far lawyers and notes do you take rain checks(didn’t think so) .
This is a place to throw ideas around .I have said before that some one was definatly pushing BH’s buttons .You have the same suspicions .who do you think this was . This is really not to put you on the spot but you do see things in a way that other do not.
It does go to the heart of the event and it s a better discuusion then how much time this one should get as opposed to this one.Really like to hear what you think.

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January 14, 2009

gompertz

Phil- good question. The expression “pushing someone’s buttons” has several related meanings. To taunt, to irritate, to aggravate. Do these apply? How about, “to point out someone’s character defects”.

I’m trying to think what kind of input from each of those who had a grievance against Victoria would have provoked Ms Hardcastle to anger and whether that input could be called “taunting” or maybe “irritating.” Of course the two from the bonfire, Mayes and Cooper, were upset because Victoria had caused their friends to get in some mild trouble with the police because of underage drinking. Would they have reported that to Ms Hardcastle? Would that have caused her to become enraged? More likely the story would have needed to be embellished to get such an extreme reaction. Do teenage girls lie sometimes? Well, maybe sometimes. lol

So was Ms Hardcastle lied to? Was there a deliberate and elaborate slander that she foolishly believed? Such things do happen. But remember there have been reports in the papers that some people did not consider Ms Hardcastle a monster and we don’t have to assume the worst about any of them, really. Since as you say we are throwing ideas around and not trying to prove anything, here is a possibility of what may have set Ms Hardcastle off. I have said that I think Mercades is a sensitive person whose emotions were on edge because of a broken heart. If you read Topix for August 10, there is a poem from Mercades’ myspace posted by David Stein. It starts:

So keep thinkin you got somethin

Keep thinkin you won

Baby this battle has only just begun

You’ll soon get the lies

&amp slap across the face

Don’t come cryin

You wanted a taste…

Why not admit the possibility that bitter emotions can be intensified by such poetic eloquence to the point of violence? Why assume that anyone had to resort to lies and slander? Take a poetic temperament and add some simple words of dissatisfaction like what Kayla Hassel expressed in her statement about Victoria? There is emotion in her voice, there is another kind of emotion in the voice of Ms Mayes, and neither have to be sinister by themselves. That is all it takes, a combination of sentimental and benign feelings, combined with a little bit of jealousy and resentment, and the mixture is explosive. Wars start the same way. Look at the Germans and French and their bloodthirsty vendettas stretching over centuries, and poetry and literature have played their part in perpetuating the violence and hatred. Is it too far fetched to think the Lakeland violence can be traced back to…a poem? I am well aware that in the case of Mayes and Cooper there were some resentments that were based on rather vile motives, but were these things enough to move Ms Hardcastle to anger? While many assume the worst I am free to assume something else. If you think it’s too fantastic, look at that poem. I think it is very creative and full of feeling. At least if Frenchmen march to war under the banner of the Marseillaise (and Americans march to look for WMDs) why couldn’t a young girl in Florida be moved by the heart-rending words of a poem. It doesn’t mean that the target was well-chosen but then that’s also the case in most wars.

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

Gomp: Do you see the date on that poem? She couldn’t have time stamped that herself. It is proof that yes ” Jake the Snake” was beating on her long before the case or restarining order came back up.

And just for the record, Tori was drinking as well. No, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. I just want it known that she was right there with all of them drinking too, until trouble started and she ran to the car and locked the doors.

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

and I hope you’re not implying that this poem means Mercades’ was the instigator in the beating case, really thier problmes had NOTHING to do with Mercades. Tori didn’t steal Mercades’ boyfriend. Do you understand that poem was to a friend of mercades that Jake started datedhence the ” don’t come cryin” part?

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

But my Mercades was not there that night drinking with them : )

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

And my Mercades was not there with those girls drinking either. : ) Just for the record

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

oops, the statement wasn’t showing up. I thought it didn’t take. Sorry guys. Oh and the reason why I said sorry guys about the trial is because I know you guys don’t want there to be many trials for Tori to have to go through. I do hope all can be dealt with where we can proove our case, but without really hurting her too much.. I would say without hurting her at all, but we all know that just being there will probably bring back memories.

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January 15, 2009

gompertz

Christina- Of course I am not implying that Mercades had a role in inciting the beating. I know about the poem and why it was written, and that she wrote it to her friend who was having similar troubles. I drew attention to the poem to demonstrate that Mercades has the ability to express her feelings through poetry and expressing yourself through poetry is much better than to express yourself through violence.

The question that was directed at me was whether Ms Hardcastle’s inexplicable anger toward Victoria was caused by someone setting her up. So people naturally ask whether Mercades could have incited Ms Hardcastle, and I see nothing wrong with asking the question. That’s what we do here, we look at different points of view and try to make sense of what happened based on the available evidence. We’ve all heard about the trash-talking and the issue of jealousy over boys and that is something that is all too common with young people and I guess it has always been that way. I think I understand Mercades’ feeling of hurt and her poem communicates her feelings in a positive way. Maybe Ms Hardcastle had the same kind of problem and could have been influenced by Mercades’ poem to articulate her own feelings. Unfortunately there were other influences that won, and Ms Hardcastle’s hurt feelings led to anger and violence and away from poetry. But these things are still not sorted out and maybe there will be a trial or maybe several trials, where that can be done. One thing is clear: when anger gets the upper hand, the urge to violence is more powerful than the inclination to read poetry, and Mercades with her poetic gift was powerless to stop the terrible thing that happened.

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January 15, 2009

gompertz

A little off-topic, but I’m going to my tai chi class and will be back later tonight. It’s 15 degrees in NY with lots of ice to slip around on. In Orlando and Lakeland I see it’s a pleasant 62 degrees. Life just isn’t fair. 🙁 🙂

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January 15, 2009

Phil

Gomp
I am confused as Christina .It seemed to me that you were implying that it was Mercades that for lack of a better term .pushed BH’s Buttons..I have certainly said as much in the past . I am cetainly not saying this to get you to say the same .For one I would not insult you that way two it would be pointless to try and 3 i would not insult you that way but could you be a little bit clearer in your meaning .
After Tai Chi of course

To Christina
Apreciate you showing concern for Victoria but again in your place it is better for Mercades to have a seperate trial .Therefore better for you . . I will still caution you if I may .Because it is just repeating myself .I am on record as you know .that I believe Mercades did help instigate this and it was planned . I have presented my reasons as well as my gueses .these types of conversations will be comming up again especially now that plea agreements verus trials are discussed .You have said that you are very tired and stressed .Who can blame you Certainly not me.You have put yourself forward and as Gomp tried to explain to me once that takes a certain ammount of bravery and courage that I apreciate more now then when Gomp patiently pointed this out to me. . I do not keep bringing Mercades to get a rise out of you or to add to your stress . I feel Behind BH and mayby BM that Mercades is the most responsible. or just as resonsible .All my post have said as much. I am worried that you will just see this as us just bashing Mercades when for me it is pointing out what I truly believe and what I want to discuss when these topics arise.As we have exchanged more and more comments my view of you has changed quite a bit and all for the better .My views on Mercades’s role and responsibilties in the assult have not changed .
. Sorry for repeating the same post to you once again It probally is not nessecary at this point but considering the added stress that is occuring as this drags on mayby it is .

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January 15, 2009

christina garcia

As I am on record as saying opinions are like umm…a leg everyone has one. As you have a right to yours. And sincerely this is not meant as an insult towards you, it really is the truth isn’t it?

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January 15, 2009

Phil

None at all taken
Chistina thanks

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January 15, 2009

Phil

P.S Christina
Yes you are right ,especially with this case Everybody has an opinion nice to see the whit back in your comments .

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January 15, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

Don’t think we are to warm and toasty down here. Saturday is supposed to be quite a cold. Maybe not your definition of cold but certainly mine. I am enjoying this milder weather. The problem here is 80 degrees one day and down in the 40’s the next. Your body has a hard time adjusting.

It is nice to know that bullying is somewhat coming to the forefront in our society. Maybe if enough research is done we can find some solutions to these problems. Of course after the fact punishment is deserved. So of course the focus should be preventative measures.

I am not familiar with the case you spoke of. However, I have stated before our schools are to lack on bullying and fighting. period. If you can’t go to school officials for help who do you turn to?

Parents should be more actively involved and demand when a report is filed it will be followed up. Unfortunately we know even from the case with the boy Jake this did not happen (allegedly). School officials should be held accountable in these situations. Where were this boys parent’s when he was been beaten so badly? Their seems to be nowhere for these victims to turn.

Gompertz I will continue to comment only on what I have seen reported about Mercades ex.
What if he did go to school officials? What if she did push him? What if she did pay someone to break him and ex up? On the other hand if he was beating her would this be a defense for taking your anger out on someone else?

All of us I would assume at sometime in our lives have had our heart broken. This usually does not lead to such violent responses. However, since we have what is reported in affidavits saying one thing and Christina saying another not enough info. So I unlike you am holding judgement on the ex from the other case. In this case he plays no role. Also that poem can be interpreted in many different ways. So I will leave that one alone.

One thing I found interesting on the tape I did not mention before. I truly do not try to point the finger at one girl. They were all involved. When Brittini screaming at Victoria she asked “Why did you tell Mercades you don’t like me?” Victoria’s reply was “Because she said you don’t like me”. Brittini’s reponse was “I don’t like you.” Mercades of course was present at this time. It was in the living room. If Brittini was lying about these statements nothing was corrected. So as Phil states I do believe Mercades had a lot of influence over B.H.s anger. Of course add in the reasons for the rest and they all played a part.

Phil – As usual not disagree with a word you said. Well maybe one or two 🙂 The statement I made to Gomp. about B.H.’s statements can be heard very clearly on the tape. Obviously shows a lot of trash talking was going on about Victoria before hand.

We have always agreed this was planned. I do think each girl had her own agenda. Of course B.M. and A.C. are pretty evident. I really don’t care if Victoria was drinking at the party or not. No relevance once again what so ever in this case. Although, I am sure the defense attornies will bring it up like it matters. Furthering their cause of showing what ‘type’ of person the victim was.

Kayla is pretty easy I believe. It was over a boy. period. Mercades not as clear but she did seem to be the closest to B.H. as the two of them were obviously talking. I am not making this up. Anyone can hear this on the tape.

So is Brittini Hardcastle the fall girl. Yes I would say so. However, certainly do not feel sorry for her. Did she carry out what others could not do on their own? Once again I believe so. However, no matter who pushed her buttons it will not be relevant to her punishment I believe.

All of these girls played major roles in this case. We all agree they should be punished. So still here we are waiting for some kind of resolution. Do not think I am going easy on B.H. No excuse ever for this kind of horrific behavior. I feel this way about all of these defendants involved.

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January 15, 2009

gompertz

Phil- Tai Chi lessons have ended for tonight, now time for some poetry. 🙂 🙂 🙂

My response to your question about who incited Brittni might be confusing, but look at it like this. All along I have been making the case for Mercades, saying her behavior was understandable if we consider her emotional state. I have always said she was a victim. I have praised her for her sensitivity and love of animals. When I started doing that some people said that by defending Mercades I was turning my back on Victoria. Well, I found that attitude perplexing. Now, recently I introduced the idea that Ms Hardcastle was , in a way, a victim, too, because some of the others may have set her up. So now it may seem that, by offering an explanation for Ms Hardcastle’s brutal behavior, I was now abandoning my support for Mercades. It would seem natural that if I now went with the theory that Ms Hardcastle was set up, I was casting suspicion on Mercades as well as the other suspects. At least, that is what I judged to be implied in the question as to who I think pushed Brittni’s buttons, whether that implication was intended or not. I could have said very simply that I have not changed my view about Mercades’ involvement, especially with what we learned about the bonfire party. The bonfire thing not only implicated Ms Mayes and Ms Cooper very clearly but also introduced a whole new list of potential suspects who disliked Victoria, so Ms Hardcastle could point at a lot of other people beside the ones we know about as possible instigators. Yes, I could have simply said that, but I didn’t.

The reason I answered in a way that was a little ambiguous was, I wanted to look at some of the consequences of the whole idea of instigation and manipulation. I thought about the possibility that nobody pushed anybody’s buttons. So I looked at ways that situations can get out of control not through deliberate manipulation, but through misunderstandings of various sorts. One thing that Victoria said on her GMA interview was that she still doesn’t know what set off the attack, and she wants to find out. If Victoria still doesn’t know, it’s probably because there is no simple explanation, and finding the answer may be as complex as looking for the root causes of wars and holocausts (and that’s a subject I have studied for many years). That’s why I introduced the poem. It isn’t as simple as saying that someone could read a poem and be moved to violence. Or saying that the U.S. Civil War resulted when people heard the Battle Hymn of the Republic and marched down south singing “Glory Hallelujah.” So when I asked whether the whole beating incident could have been provoked by a poem I was speaking metaphorically. It is tempting to look for a simple explanation, like someone whispering lies in someone’s ear and off they go to administer some kind of frontier justice. All I am saying is that it is possible that (one)Brittni was indeed provoked and incited to violence and at the same time (two) no one deliberately provoked or incited anything, including Ms Mayes and Ms Cooper. In other words, I am not going to accuse anyone of anything without proof. If Victoria received text messages from Ms Mayes and Ms Cooper that threatened her with physical violence, that is indeed strong evidence to present in court. But I’m not trying this case. Since the video is there and the case is in the hands of the judge and SAO has all the cards, let them go ahead with their evidence. That’s the part that’s clear but when we look further into root causes, beyond what the courts will look at, we get into these ambiguities. With Hassel, Mayes and Cooper the reasons seem simple. With both Mercades and Brittni, the reasons look hazy. Mercades the sensitive soul was indecisive, like Hamlet. She sits there and watches the horrible beating and does nothing. Like she is thinking, “To be or not to be…”The words say, “Don’t hit the shelf” And she might as well say, “Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.” And of course Hamlet does nothing. That’s how it is with poets sometimes.

Phil, did I clear up the ambiguity or just increase the confusion? I am afraid that the closer we look at this case the more confused we’ll be. The courts have it easy, they just have to see whether the act meets the legal definition of assault or whatever the charge is and you vote yes or no. But morally and spiritually you can’t solve the problem that way. You have to accept the ambiguity inherent in the nature of things, especially when it comes to human motives. Are they showing remorse or not? Unlikely we’ll get a yes or no answer. Does my girl friend really love me or is she using me? Insisting on a clear answer could spoil the fun. The great existentialist writers accepted the ambiguity at the heart of human existence. The great physicists who developed Quantum Mechanics accepted the ambiguity at core of Reality. Heisenberg’s Indeterminacy Principle is not resolved by making better instruments and taking more accurate measurements. It is part of the nature of things that the more closely we measure them the greater the indeterminacy becomes. Maybe in a few hundred years the insights of Quantum Physics will be recognized by the court system. But not today. For now we are stuck with a system that insists on final answers and hates ambiguity.

So was Brittni Hardcastle set up or not? At some point the court will have to say we have enough evidence to decide either/or. But I prefer to keep to Buddha’s Middle Way and live with the ambiguity, because I think it gives us a better chance to get at the truth.

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January 15, 2009

gompertz

Okay maybe I can be a little clearer without destroying the beautiful ambiguity. I see Mercades as someone who suffered loss and abandonment and I suggest that Brittni may have suffered also. Mercades wrote a poem and Brittni did not. But the pain is the same. The poem did not cause the violence, the poem reflected the feeling of hurt that led indirectly to creating the conditions that made the violence possible. And many other causes had to contribute to the violence. Actually, it may be that all human events are overdetermined, meaning you can always find many more determining factors than you need to explain what happens.

Victoria says she is trying to find out what caused the beating and she is the victim of that beating. So if she doesn’t know, what hope do we have of finding out? We must understand that the answer that Victoria is seeking is not something that can be discovered in a court room, no matter how much is revealed on the witness stand. Who said what to whom, what stories were told, what plans and conspiracies were formulated, these are issues that will help to determine degrees of guilt. But they are not the kind of answers that lead to understanding and therefore do not lead to healing. All must ask Victoria for forgiveness, some will have to ask Mercades for forgiveness, and maybe some will have to ask Ms Hardcastle for forgiveness, and so on. To figure all this out we have to start asking different questions from the ones we have been asking, and finding out more facts about bonfires and boys named Elmer won’t help. What will help” Outside of reading poems and doing tai chi to clear the mind, I don’t know. Oh, and also, using ambiguity to stimulate thinking.

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January 16, 2009

Phil

Thanks Gomp
Clear as mud( lol:) )
Gomp i do not mind your obscure views . I have read it twice to pick up some of the nuances .The girls may have taken advantage of one another or influenced on another to some thing that one would not normally do as is usualy the case in group viloence .But to use the word “victim “to describe any of these girls besides Victoria that were in the room to me is going to far.That is not the same as being sympathetic to one’s back ground or what external influences they may have been under ,.But Victim .Come on Gomp Free choice does not make a victim .Truly A bad choice of words .A victim has no choice .I know you can say that this person was a victim of past bulling or a victim of betrayal herself so that caused this or that to happen but as it relates to what happened in that room Mercades and BH were not victims they were participants..

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Phil- Thanks for showing toleration for my penchant for obscurity. lol

I think it’s just part of my nature to express myself like that. I can’t be like Scott, though I have studied his style of expression and tried to imitate it, but it’s hopeless. Let’s see what happens if I try to be more succinct. If I were to give a direct answer to who instigated that assault on Victoria, I’d have to say Mayes and Cooper are my first choice. That part is simple. We can all read the Ledger report about the bonfire and it’s not complicated. The only complication there comes from trying to figure out what part was played by all those angry people who wanted to attack Victoria when she locked herself in the car…see, I just can’t keep it simple, no matter how hard I try. lol

As for saying Victoria was the only victim in that room at the time, I’ve never disagreed with that. That’s why everyone who was in that room is facing charges except Victoria…oh, except for Cara who was there but for some reason is not charged…

The way I addressed your question was to take into account that whatever I said everyone is going to have their own view anyway. And some people will say Mercades had some input in inciting Ms Hardcastle, even if I said otherwise. And if that is where the examination of the evidence takes you, you are entitled to hold that opinion. I wasn’t there, and only Christina can provide specifics. But even Christina can’t know what exactly was in Mercades’ mind at the time she was sitting on the couch, looking so indifferent, and neither can I, and I suppose that Mercades might tell us when she does get the chance to speak,and right now, as we know, she can’t do that. So I have to go on the evidence of a poem because a poem reveals the secrets of the heart in a unique way. And yes, I do know that the poem was written a while back before all this happened, and to me it is evidence that she was a victim. The point that you and Amy make is that whatever Mercades’ troubles were, they were not Victoria’s fault. That is probably what the court will say, too. All I can do is hope that whatever the court decided it will be fair and neither too harsh or too lenient toward anyone.

Remember I’m not the lawyer, I’m the “therapist.” I’m looking at the underlying factors in spite of the probability that the court won’t consider them because at some point in the healing process these things will be important. It will be especially important for Victoria, I think. I go by her own words, at the GMA interview when she said she still didn’t know why her friends could turn on her like that and she wants to find out. Now, going by those few words (and we don’t have too many words to go on) I think Victoria would be interested in those underlying reasons that the court and most people think are unimportant. I wonder if Victoria knew of Mercades’ pain and read her poem. She probably did and I can imagine that she was moved by it. I can even imagine Brittni Hardcastle being moved by Mercades’ poem, and feeling that it reflected her own experience. Many people will think this is crazy, but I have learned that my intuitions are right more often than wrong, and of course I may be wrong anyway. Still, I can picture Ms Hardcastle as a person who is capable of being moved by Mercades’ poem and being in sympathy with her. Now, this is where I hesitate. The problem is that while I can imagine Ms Hardcastle being moved by that poem, for some reason I can’t imagine Ms Mayes or Ms Cooper or Ms Hassell or Ms Murphy being moved by it. And again I may be wrong, I hope I am proven wrong.

I hope that subsequent events will show that the four ladies I just mentioned have the capacity for appreciating Mercades’ poem and being moved by that kind of feeling that leads to sympathy for victims and remorse for their deed. (I know, I include Cara because after all she was there too) This is important because Victoria’s question needs to be answered. There has to come a time when she can confront each of the accused and ask them face to face, “Why?” If they cannot feel remorse, at least they owe her an honest answer, one that goes beyond pointing fingers at her and at each other, and that could be the beginning of healing for Victoria and all of them.

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,

had Mercades put a hand on Tori, absobutely not an excuse from her pain ( not anger) for Jake, but she didn’t touch Tori therefore her issues with Jake have nothing to do with Tori!

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January 16, 2009

Phil

AmyV really good point about Mercades telling BH that Victoria didn’t like her and telling Victoria that BH didn’t like her, it is on the tape , and clearly audible. The others were out of breath at that time .Continually yelling abuse can be tiring..We call that playing both sides .of course it is the classic example on how some one pushes another persons Buttons . .She did more than just betray her by repeating confidences .Inviting all these people over who had a grudge against Victoria set the whole thing up .
Christina and Gomp and others talk about her being blamed for more than her actions or non-action warrant .She will not in my opinion make a very sympathic defendant, It is human nature for jurys to judge character and actions. The Betrayal of friends in both cases ,doing what she did to Victoria and later trying to hang BH out to dry for her own shortcummings will not sit well with any judge or jury.
When you add Kayla’s same weak offerings ,Mercades first lawyers with the only 2 black eyes defense . April’s attorny ,attack the victim stratagy makes it hard to empathize let alone sympathize with any one of these people .

The worst of this is this makes us sound like we are sticking up for Brit H.She was by far the worst of the whole lot . I do not care if every friend she ever had called her and complained about Victoria her brutality shoud be rewarded with the same ammount of sympathy she showed Victoria .pick a number from 0 to 10 and fill in the blank .An apoligy that demands the victim also apoligize is not an apoligy . An apoligy that does mention any wrong doing by the one aploigizing is not an apoligy . . When Is anyone of these defendants going to stand up and say this is what I did . Don’t tell me what the other one did.

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Why do you only pick Mercades’ name out of the list of people they went through And asked why don’t you like this one that one? Why? I’ll tell you why…you guys still have the mentallity that Mercades is the ringleader, and this is my exact reasoning for my lawsuit…the information Judd put out there is as good as the truth to the public, and these lies will follow her and yes I forever!! Even when I have my own day in court with Grady Judd and I win, first impression are everything and he took that from myself and my daughter. How many more girls were there and in Tori’s face?? Where was my kid?? I have listened to alot of negavitve talk about her because I feel her being there and around that was a bad choice on her part, but I am sick sick sick of Mercades this Mercades that, sure you mention BH BM AC but it always goes back to Mercades. Why?? WHat kind of power do you people think my kid has that she could control 4 girls?? I am sorry but there is something really wrong with you.

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January 16, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
Your trying to show understanding ( i kind of like that word better than sympathy ) for Mercades has never been a sore point with me . The reason being your examples and reasons forces me to look where i would not look and to consider angles I would not .This is one of the few pleasures that occur while talking about this unplesant case . We also both realizes through our studys of history the power of words and thier affect on events .”If the Glove does not fit you must aquit” . You have always been able to seperate your quest for understanding and commpassion from the seriousness of the indivdual actions of those involved .You have stated time and time again what you feel about what was done to Victoria .By using vctim to describe Mercades and BritH You truly lessen the actions of the defendant It also by extension lessons the suffering of Victoria . People have used the oppisite in this case where they try and make it seem that Victoria suffered to the point where her sufferings were compared to the most brutal of rapes.and therfore lets burn the bunch of them and let’s have done with it .Christina’s reminder that no one was raped or mudered is a valid point.
Please Gomp it is not your opinins that were the issue these we will debate back and forth and both be the better off for the exchange . .I will ask you though please be carefull on who you lable victim .

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Phil said:
Please Gomp it is not your opinins that were the issue these we will debate back and forth and both be the better off for the exchange . .I will ask you though please be carefull on who you lable victim .

I have to agree. I have always felt that one must pay for thier crimes first, then when they serve thier sentence , then they may recieve sympothy. I have to say though, that these are all children still, sorry but even BH obviously does not have an adult mind yet, none of us did at 17 or 18. Plus with all the lies about everyone involved its difficult for me to go with how I feel about what I just said. Judd made this into a terrible mess, if he would only come forward and straighten these things out, maybe there will be fair justice, but as long as he sits behind his desk and bible, I will fight him until the day I die! Not to mention how Jesus feels about someone claiming he reads his bible, and makes sure its there clear as day on his desk in every interview or conference, using the Lord to persuade people is NOT GOOD!

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

I hope nobody here thinks I am brushing Tori’s assault off as nothing happened from my statement about nobody was raped nor murdered. Because thats not how I feel. Only that its not as tragic as a rape or murder, I have seen rapists here in Polk County with less bail. Like for instance Judd’s nephew 5000.00 for violation on a sexual molestation of a child under 12?? WTH is wrong here? Can we say ” corruption”?

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January 16, 2009

Phil

The reason Christina is exactly as you say
.I believe she was a ringleader . that is why I always go back to her ..As i was responding to AmyV’s comment that about Mercades which supported that argument .I never even heard of Judd even before i watched the video and please belive me or not his statements or actions have no affect on my decision making process . Every time you bring up an objection it ussally involves Mercades and that also will spurs the the conversation towards her . The last Time i brought up the name and hit game that BH played on Victoria i did list the names but AmyV’s point is a good one about Mercades telling both Victoria and BH that the other didn’t like them.
This also shows why BH was upset at Victoria
all of these are valid points and i do not know how to get arround this issue to satisfy your argument .

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January 16, 2009

Phil

Chriatina
The bail was ridiciculous and puniiitive and the way you have been sticking up for your daughter has in my opinon shown no disrespect for Victoria .You are right to in saying that no on was raped or murdered .But more importantly you have every right to say what you want with the same passion and sarcasim and everything else included that We all do .Please do not feel that you have to walk on eggshels . I refuse to do this myself so why should you .If you feel like I am being unfair unfactual or anything else let me have it and i will respond in kind .thier is nothing disrespectful is what you have been saying nothing at all .

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Okay, I want to see a quick show of hands. How many people think that Mercades’ poem incited people to violence?…………Not many, good. Now next question, How many think that I was blaming Mercades’ poem for inciting violence when I asked if a poem could lead to violence? Hmmmmmm…………..

When I asked that question, I was making the same point Christina just made when she asked what kind of power do people think Mercades has that she could control 4 angry girls. People will think what they want no matter what anyone says, and by putting the question in that ambiguous way I was allowing people the chance to confront their own feelings. The fact that Christina was as concerned as Phil (“confused” he says) to have me clarify what I meant shows how many people think I may have really meant to accuse Mercades. The reason they think that is precisely that people still think of her as a ringleader, even if they don’t always express it that way. And Christina is concerned that even someone like me, who has defended Mercades in the past, might now be falling for the official version. Well, I’m not, and I don’ t really think a poem can incite people to violence. But it made people wonder if that is what I meant, didn’t it? That proves the point that people want to believe the same old “ringleader” theory.” That fact that Phil and others are thinking about things is a good thing. That’s about all we can ask for right now.

The time will come when Mercades will be allowed to speak on her own. I must say I still agree with the judge’s decision not to let her speak when the request was a few months ago, because it would have been hard to allow one to speak and not the others, and that would have been simply chaos. But the time will come soon when we will hear more. I repeat, I don’t think Mercades had the power to incite violence or to stop it. But I think she is the one who has the greatest chance to bring about healing and reconciliation and I think she will have the power to move people in the right direction.

As for the use of the word “victim” I still think it is appropriate in the context I meant it, because our society has made violence so pervasive and even respectable that all young people are susceptible to going wrong in a way that previous generations were not.

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Gomp: Thank you for the clarification. : ) I should’ve known you were up to something. lol

Phil,
Thank you for understanding my concerns. I’ll try and remember the egg shell theory but sometimes I feel like I’m walking a wire with a furious fire under it.

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January 16, 2009

Phil

Gomp ask
Okay, I want to see a quick show of hands. How many people think that Mercades&rsquo poem incited people to violence?&hellip&hellip&hellip&hellipNot many, good. Now next question, How many think that I was blaming Mercades&rsquo poem for inciting violence when I asked if a poem could lead to violence? Hmmmmmm

Hard to say.
The ring leader question also has to be clarified from my point of view . To say some one has controll over anybody of course not .All those girsls are responsible for thier own actions . i workrd on a sales floors many year sago .this happened in the first month that i was there one of the older stronger salesman was talking to a guy that was a little bit of a hot head . As the morning progressed this salesman kept on bringing up to the hothead hot his rival (for lack of a better word) was always stealing customers and sales . He would drop this allegation or part of a conversation and bits of gossip to support his view , By the time this sales person( the rival )showed up The hot head was so upset that he started an argument in the middle of the store and got fired . Guess who walked away unscathed . the Hothead was truly responsible for his actions and should have known better and talked to a manager . . Mercades hands are all over this is the same way . It Doesen’t excuse anybod’s else guilt but the ammount of coencedenses that would have to had taken place to excuse her of manipulating the events would have to be staggering . And gomp I still think using the word Victim in that contexted was wrong especially with your vocabulary other words would not have taken away from your argument .

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January 16, 2009

Phil

Great debates though

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Phil- I can relate to the story of the hothead. I’ve seen the same kind of thing where people make themselves vulnerable by rushing into confrontations and their lack of self- control is exploited by someone with their own agenda. It happens on the national level too. Remember the Maine and Make the world safe for democracy make great slogans and maybe one day they’ll find those pesky WMDs and prove it was all worth the trouble after all. The phenomenon is so pervasive that we are tempted to conclude that it is true in this case also. I’ve seen good (meaning very corrupt) attorneys build a case for or against someone by appealing to the jury’s own personal experiences and judge the case before them according to how they themselves have been treated in the past. Legal reasoning is not based on strict logic as much as on analogy. Look at the case before you and use your own past experience to judge how similar this case is to things you yourself have had happen to you. And sometimes you do reach correct conclusions but sometimes analogy will lead you wrong because life is not like mathematics and not reducible to precise proof. So I can reach a conclusion based on some of my own experiences that take me in another direction.

The thing about everyone gathering at the house immediately brought back a memory of how that happened in my own case. When I was 15 I had very little parental supervision for reasons that are very off-topic and complicated. So a group of my friends would drift over to my apartment and hang around. It started with me and two other guys who were close friends of mine and really nice guys. Gradually more guys would join our group and soon there were about ten guys hanging out at my place after school and that included some who were not very nice. One day things got totally out of control and a few of these guys started ringing neighbors’ doorbells and playing pranks like throwing eggs at people’s doors. And if you think I had any control as this mob descended into a Lord of the Flies kind of insanity, well, think again. When the cops arrived it was just in time to catch one guy pouring lighter fluid on somebody’s door and luckily they put the blame on the real culprit on that occasion. But it was the end of those after school visits with my friends and I never got over the reputation of being the guy who must have instigated the whole things because I let them hang out at my apartment. You can see where I’m going with this but I must add that the same thing happened to me again when I was away at college and some visitors of mine trashed the dorm and I was reprimanded because they were guests of mine and I should have controlled them. And there is no way to control people who want to make a mess and use your place as a base of operations, especially when they know that since it isn’t their place they can just walk away and leave you to clean up the mess. And of course I still think back sometimes and think if I could have been more assertive and kept things under control. Easy with hindsight. So all we get from comparing various experiences from our past (and I have a vast treasury of those) is a big cloud of uncertainty. For all I know, Mercades might be guilty as you and Amy have charged. I don’t think so, but I have sometimes (rarely)been wrong about such things and I may be wrong here. So we will have to see what comes out in the court proceedings and see if they get it right.

As far as the word “victim”goes it may be better not to use it, but I see that one of the dictionary equivalents for “victim” is “fall guy” and for some of these girls, or one at least, that term seems to fit.

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January 16, 2009

Phil

To Christina
I know when you and AmyV comment you both have to be careful
Some harsh words have been exchanged and some times it dosen’t take much to get things going.I am very passionate and stubborn in my biliefs ,If you feel the fire as you put it while walking the tightwire . No prob letting it out on your comments . You don.t have to play by different rules then the rest .
Christina i really mean this . Gomp is right in this we all take diiferent roles . I am the proscecutor .I want these girls , all of them to spend time in jail for what they have done .Your role is the mother of the defendants .We will be butting heads as this goes on .
That’s okay too

Gomp You were not at the room that was trashed . Your responsibility and culpibility increases ten fold if you had been in this rm even if you did not take part in the trashing of the room the same as Mercades .,. The other example . if there was text messages exchanged from your cell talking about throwing eggs . You invite more people over who you know are likly to throw eggs at the same house because these people have said that we don’t like that person and they deserved to egged . you know this and still invite them over ,. because thay have told you about if they get the chance they will be throwing eggs . They come over and sure enough .And that person whos house just got egged is good friend of yours as well you see where i am going with this . You can certainly say I am not in controll what others did and as you can see I did not throw any eggs . Can you honestly tell me in both of my examples that you are not responsible for rooms being trashed and eggs being thrown ,Can you tell me you would not be asked why all these egg throwing people were invited over in the first place .

On a funny note when i used to read these types of post before i joined I thought that some of the fine folkes
who post here might have inhaled something they shoud not of ,iI wonder what a person reading this site for the first time thinks about the great egg debate .

.

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January 16, 2009

M. Hutchence

murder no, but it very easily could have been- I’ve seen more than a few cases were a teen/young adult dies from one punch.

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Could’ve been? Hmm…I disagree but it doesn’t matter because Thank God we are in a country where we’re not punished according to what we all can do : )

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Phil- Yes there were points at which I could have intervened before things got out of hand. But things started gradually, and it is only looking back later that you see what pattern was emerging. I suppose when the paper bags with the egg cartons arrived I should have intervened forcefully and threatened to call the cops, and that was what you might call my moment of cowardice. But what if it had started with the breaking windows and the burning of the door? That would have alerted me immediately and jolted me into making that phone call. I guess the example of the frog is overworked but I think it is useful anyway. If a frog if placed in boiling water it jumps out but if you place it in water at room temperature and heat it gradually until the water is boiling the frog stays in the water and dies. Makes you wonder about the mentality of people who perform these experiments and I hope the frog doesn’t feel any pain. But it’s impossible for us to tell with frogs. So, what if someone knew the eggs were going to be thrown and there would be some unpleasantness but had no idea it would escalate to serious property damage, the kind I would have to pay off with my first job as paper boy. Did Mercades think that the fight that was coming was more like a round of egg throwing or that it would be like burning down the house? Was there anything in the messages leading up to the beating that would help us decide whether she should have known how serious the coming confrontation would be? Remember no one has said Mercades is without blame. She wants to take her punishment and move on. I took my punishment even though the most serious offender, whose father just happened to be a cop, got away with no consequences. The memory is especially bitter because I know that the egg throwers and window breakers would not have done anything like that in their own neighborhood. Yes, I was known for being passive and intellectually inclined and only much later did I learn to stand up for my rights. I was a coward and a patsy. Then I got it together and now I know you can be a philosopher and a poet and still be in control and not get pushed around. As for the kid who broke the windows and set fire to the door, the last I heard he was still a coward who took advantage of the weak in petty ways. Let’s hope that all the perpetrators here will turn it around and do better.
It’s time for them to stop attacking the victim through their lawyers and accept the offer of leniency extended by Victoria and Talisa. And read some poetry because it’s good for you.

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January 16, 2009

christina garcia

Offer of leniency? Did you not get my email? Or have you seen something new that I haven’t?

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January 16, 2009

M. Hutchence

really&gt? you do? I can provide an inarguable amount of proof that kids and young adults have been killed by a single blow. How the case should be prosecuted- i’m not sure, but it was a really horrid assault, that’s for sure.

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January 16, 2009

Phil

Gomp.
you are not the only one who has made these claims but we can dance this circle again i do not mind but then we we will be just going over more Mercades stuff .the last time we went through this argument you finally had to agree that this was planned . this does not mean again that you are going to agree that Mercades is the number 1 person responsible but at least bring up senarios that are consistent with what you say you believe . I am not trying to be insulting but some times you go in one direction then the other .,To me when you start at anyones resonsibility in this case you have to start with were the events planned “If you don’t change your attitude BH is going to beat you up and i am not going to stop it .’What part of that is ambigious what part of this did not happen . She invites BM and April over who are on record saying they are going to do the same thing ,How then can youclaim not to know . . .But most of all ask Christina what is Mercades to be blamed for ,Not for haveing anything to do with the planning of this not for encoraging others to do what was done .not for the kidnapping that took place afterwords . So Gomp what do you feel she did wrong because it sounds like you do not think it was much more then being a bad friend . I have been very specific to the point in why i feel this way but Gomp i am asking for punishments based on specific actions .If you are saying she should be punished for something than what laws did she break .

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January 16, 2009

Phil

AmyV
HELP (lol)

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Okay, listen up everyone. I just got word that Victoria wouldn’t mind if we signed the petition. So if you key in “care2 Victoria Lindsay” you can see the petition and I’m only no. 27 to sign and you can be no. 28 if you hurry. 🙂 🙂 🙂

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January 16, 2009

gompertz

Phil- I can try to answer more specifically but since I am not a lawyer it would only be an opinion and not at all binding on the court. And yes, I do take different positions at different times but then I do that because I can and it is fun to look at things from different points of view. 🙂 So what I would say about the question what laws did Mercades break first I would have to say what law she didn’t break IMHO and I think the kidnapping charge is excessive, even if the maximum penalty is not imposed. It is hard to decide because assault and battery don’t apply to her. Here is the irony: the thing for which we blame her morally, namely sitting in the comfy chair and not stopping the beating, is not technically a crime, as far as I know from reading the comments of informed people on Topix (some of them are even more worldly than I am lol). The main thing I would look at that might be incriminating is the question of the extent of planning and the possibility that the victim was lured. There would have to be an evaluation of the cell phone conversations and what they mean. Then a statement like”If you don’t change your attitude BH is going to beat you up…” would have to be evaluated. It could be a threat or it could be like “If you climb into the panda cage and try to hug the panda the panda will claw you” and that could be a threat or a friendly warning or just a statement of fact. But if the jury evaluates the evidence and decides that the facts fit the definition of luring and planning that would mean the possibility of a serious sentence. That is why I now agree with Greta van Susteren when she said early on that juvenile charges would have been more appropriate. Unlike Geraldo, she admitted the beating was awful and she was outraged. Still, she felt that justice could be served with the perpetrators being charged as juveniles and if they had been this trial would have been over, or reasonable plea bargains would have been offered. If they had received say 2 years or three years in juvie that seems about right if you agree with the charge of planning and luring combined with the beating charge. If Mercades could be shown to be guilty of the luring charge she might have been given six months to a year in juvie. The others would have received maybe three years for the beating. The kidnapping charge would have to be reinterpreted in terms of juvenile charges and added on but I don’t know how that could be done. Really, I wish Amy would get here because I don’t like being a prosecutor.

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January 17, 2009

Phil

Gomp
Thanks for you response .
I am going to type in part of Victoria’s statement Gomp in regard to Mercades andto assult and battery pg 10 of Victoria’s statement at he ledger

He said the cops are coming .Someones coming its getting loud . MERCADES SAiD YOU DON’T HAVE TO STOP BEATING HER JUST QUIET IT DOWN PLEASE.
At this point BH knuckles are bleeding and she tells me you think your lips are busted wait t’ill I bust your nose.I guess her goal was to break my nose .So her kuckles are all busted upand they do it for a couple moe minutes and finaly Mercades IS LIKE ENOUGH WE HAVE TO GO TO GET MY NANA THE NEIGHBOURS ARE COMING .

Gomp I capitized to highlight not to yell.But this directly shows her involvement in the beating was not just a spectator she told someone in her house to continue beating another person .Your egg analogy, if you told your friends to keep on throwing or doing mischief you certainly can’t claim that i don’t controll the actions of others .
.Also it shows that Mercades is in controll she tells BH to contiue .BH continues .She tell BH to stop BH stops .No argruments .no few more shhots just because .BH doesen’t turn around and tell Mercades to mind her own buisness .. None of the other girls argue the point . This is the evedence ,Its not like I am the type of person who says well some one’s resposible lets make it her .
These statements take place in the defendants home you add the text messaging involvement and her inviting all the people that had a known grudge .I am sorry Gomp but it is way more than guilty by assoiciation.
Gomp i am not asking you to play Lawyer just as when you make your points you are not asking me to be Therapist.But in both roles we must treat the person for what they really did not for what we wished they did .

PS. did you get my email

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Hello Phil I heard your cries for help 🙂 I have stayed off the blog for a couple of days because I felt to much egg shell walking was required. However, since permission has been granted to everyone this will no longer be an issue.

I do not single out one person as the ring leader. I believe the “Mercades being the ringleader” mentality is really just stating the fact that she was the ‘host’. The crime did occur at Mercade’s
home so that does present an additional legal problem for her. This also afforded her additional news coverage because Victoria was a ‘friend’ living with her. Is that pointing a finger at anyone. No. Simply stating a fact that I don’t think can be disputed. All except for the ‘friend’…

As you stated I do not and will not refer to anyone in this case as a victim. The only victim is Victoria. period. No matter what the reasons behind this crime it was brutal, caused bodily harm (permenant) and extreme mental anguish.
These feelings belong to Victoria and Victoria alone. None of the anguish the other girls feel can compare to her feelings of betrayal, mental and physical pain. They brought their issues upon themselves. Now they are left to deal with them. Unfortunately, Victoria had not choice and will deal with this for life as well.

It is true we can all go around and around as to motive, etc. Who incited whom. I just pointed out FACTs on the tape. You can not dispute what you see and hear with your eyes and ears. This is where the tape is so valuable. None of these things can be blamed on anyone but the defendants themselves. A judge or jury will see this.

I to enjoy conversing with Gompertz as he does provide a different perspective on things. He does make me think about issues of life in general. However, this does not change my mind on the fundamentals of this particular case.

I have stated before their is more than enough blame in this case to go around. Mercades by no means is the one being attacked. They all were participants whether they struck her or not. They all played a role in this crime and they all deserve some form of punishment. That of course will be left to the legal system.

Phil, if your in Fla. how is your weather? Pretty cold here. Sorry, Scott I know you and Gomp. would take this over snow, ice. etc.

M. Hutchence-

Working in the medical field I have brought up the fact of just how brutal this beating truly was. Of course we all know what could have happended did not. However, it is very important that everyone understand this girl could have been killed from one of these blows. Any one of them not just B.H. Then, God forbid we would be talking about a much more tragic event.

So people this issue is more towards the need to avoid future violence such as this. Although, she did suffer a concussion and permenant vision loss some people would have you believe this fight was ‘not that bad’. Since when are a concussion (with it side effects) and permenant vision loss (makes me ill) not that bad. I guess when it doesn’t happen to you.

Please bring forward cases you know of where LESS violent acts have been commited resulting in death or permenant brain damage. I will be their to support any medical facts you know as well as I do are out their.

Is this relevant to this case. Absolutely. I believe once attorney opens up a line of questioning in a case it is fair game. So the comment “The victim made this out to be worse then it was” and “It was just two black eyes” affords us the right to comment on these issues.

Good to hear from you again Hutchence.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Phil, yes I got your email, but didn’t you get my response that I sent last night? If not I’ll try again…

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

Always a pleasure posting with you. However, I agree with Phil about the victim statement as you can see from my response. I know you do not like playing prosecutor 🙂 Irony in real life the therapist seems to have taken on that role. Of course my therapy involves the body although I do enlist the holistic approach mind and body. It takes a combination of both for a person to heal from any injury especially when emotional trauma is involved.

When myself and Phil are refered to as the prosecutors in this case that is not meant to be taken as “jail for life”. We both believe that no matter what the reasoning behind the act the crime was commited and that is the bottom line.
Your insights I feel are more useful to me in reasoning this out to determine what can be taken away from this case that will be useful towards ending future violent acts.

Your analogy of the use of a poem to incite violence in this case would be a No for me. In either manner. The poem as I have stated before, as with any other, can be interpreted in different ways. As for which one of these girls would feel remorse from reading this alone I would say very doubtful.

If they do not feel remorse for the simple fact that they commited an extremely violent act than a poem would mean little. If it did would that not be sad? A poem can bring you to tears yet beating, humilating and kidnapping a girl does not register? Sorry, Gomp many people can write poems and love animals however show zero empathy for another human being.

These facts do not call for speculation. Once again the proof is in the tape. If it had been a dog being beaten would action have been taken?
Because obviously no finger was lifted to help the true victim.

You bring up very good issues on what charges apply. Mercades did not hit Victoria so Assault and battery I am not sure when you do not physically lay a hand on someone. Perhaps accessory to assault and battery might have been more appropriate. Kidnapping, I know we disagree, very much applies. Or at least false imprisonment. That also was clearly shown on the tape and that can be applied to everyone present. Victoria would have had a much better chance of escaping if just B.H. was there. So all involved, including Cara Murphy, should have that charge. Tampering with a witness, all depends on whether you believe the victim or the defendants. I choose Victoria. Surprised.
So even if kidnapping is charged life in prison is not applicable and I doubt seriously will even be considered.

You well know Phil and I agree that this was premeditated. Of course you can call this an opinion from circumstantial evidence. However, perhaps phone records, text messages, e-mails may provide further proof. We are not privy to that information. However, based on circumstantial alone pretty far strech not to believe this was no coincidence.

Thank you for finding out about Victoria’s wishes on the petition. Truly a step in the right direction for something positive resulting from all of this. Once again she has proven to be a strong and take action type of person. Words are sometimes very hollow. She is backing hers up. Therefore, I continue to feel this nonsense defense about bashing the victim is not in any way going to lead to a favorable out come for these girls.

If they indeed are being manipulated into this defense others should come to their rescue. Parents, grandparents or perhaps a friend for lack of no one else to turn to. Bad judgements coming from a lot of these girls families. What is sad is the girls will be the ones to pay for this tactic in the end. So are the parents to be held responsible? Civil suits would handle that situation more effectively it seems. Another sad fact for the girls in this case.

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January 17, 2009

Phil

AmyV
Scott lives in Fordia I believe .
it is was minus 37 with the wind chill last night and the power went out so no heat .lots of blankets ,a log on the fire just made it freaking freezing . power and furnace came on at 6:oo am:(
So please tell me again how cold is it where you are , but please be gentil because if i start laughing before i really thaw out then it could be dangerous .

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January 17, 2009

Phil

AmyV
once again posting at near the same time .I always get nervous when someone speaks for me in thier post I have done it sparingly myself with you and so far i do not think I have mis represented you .
Your last post was so bang on accurate as to what I think ,I had to check the name to be sure you did not cut and paste.I am not worried at all with the way you included my name now or in the future .As you would say to me .
Agree,Agree,Agree

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Okay, first things first AMY and PHIL: Did you get my emails last night or is there something wrong with my computer? And thanks, Phil for being no. 28 🙂

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January 17, 2009

Phil

Gomp no i did not I did not
I will re e-mail you with my another e-mail
my power went oput so that might have been the problem

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Gomp –

I got mine. Sorry about the lengthy response. Please let me know if you have received.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Amy, yes it is true a poem can be interpreted in different ways. And my point was that people can react to the same poem differently. Still, I think that a poem has a central core of meaning around which interpretations develop, it can’t mean just old thing. How you interpret a poem can tell us who you are better than any Rorscach test. What if someone reads an Emily Dickinson poem and says, “Wow! This poem makes me want to take an assault rifle and commit mass murder! Before I read Emily Dickinson, I didn’t have these feelings.” And that is the point. I was wondering what effect a poem about unrequited love would have on various people who read it. It is true that Chairman Mao wrote beautiful poems and I am constantly being reminded that Hitler was a vegetarian. So noble feelings can exist alongside evil personality traits. That is why it is so important that we hear not only Mercades but all the others tell their story and I know what kind of questions I would like to ask them. First of all, I would not want this story to be told the way Kayla Hassel told her story to the attorney. Kayka Hassel continued bashing the victim and her saying she feels sorry two or three times a week sounded really artificial. That may have been inevitable given the circumstances under which the interview was conducted, in a purely legal framework with implications for court action. I would rather see an interview with no pressure or legal consequences, and ask them to listen to Mercades’ poem and find out how they react to it. That kind of question would come before any question like “Are you sorry? Do you feel remorse?” We would have to lead up to that kind of question by first helping them get in touch with their feelings through things like poetry and art, and maybe some breathing exercises. If you ask “Do you feel remorse?” we may get the same kind of wishy-washy response about feeling sorry two or three times a week. I don’t think remorse is a simple either/or feeling, like saying the light bulb is either on or off. I think it’s more like a candle that can burn brightly or dimly or not at all. And sometimes the flame goes out and then it can be relit.

So once again I try to think beyond the sentencing and punishment, and I’m sure it will come. Also I am aware of the statements that Phil alludes to, I have capitalized them in my mind already. LOL

What I try to do is remember that those statements and that beating do not have to define these people forever. The video is going to be out there forever, and this case has truly become a standard for judging bullying and beatings. And that is precisely why it is so important to see what lies beyond the video, because the video is frozen in time and if the people in the video can’t or won’t show us that they have moved beyond it and the feelings they had that day, then not only the video but all of society will be frozen at that moment of time forever.

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

O.K. you win. So sorry about your night that must have been miserable. All except for the fireplace. Always wanted one of those. I hope you thaw out soon. I will be gentle on you. You will really get a laugh out of this one though. Someone gave me these things called Toasti-Toes (self-activating feet warmers). I guess they were worried about my feet getting cold. If I could I would e-mail them to you. Seems like you need them a lot more. lol. I will not wear them today out of sympathy for your condition. Sorry, I am really laughing at this one. Not at you but with you. Hope you are warm now.

Thank you for your comments. I know we agree on almost ever aspect of this case. So I sometimes include you as a sort of extension of myself in the responses. Nice to know your trust my judgement.

I also never become offended at your use of my name. My only fear is that we will be accused of being one in the same person. That has happened before. Doesn’t really mean anything to me however as we both know that is just more nonsense.

Some of the things I may post in the future I will leave you out of. Your opinions on one topic I am a little harder on. That is what makes this topic interesting enough to follow up on. Besides the main reasons we have discussed before.

I would like to thank both you and Gompertz for signing the petition. I would also like to see many more signatures. To whomever thought up this gesture I will say good job. A start in the right direction especially if Victoria and her family are kind enough to allow it.

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January 17, 2009

Phil

Gomp
just sent you another E-mail let me know if you got it

To Trench and every one else sorry for using this site as a message board .

The more people who comment here and who sign the petition are helping tackle a very serious issues if you have a child or a niece ,or nephew . How do you want them live . in fear and torment of course not . it is not just adults who abuse our youth .Please add your voice .enough small ripples make a wave and change can happen .

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

Phil, the only report I have seen out there stated that the boys said You don’t have to stop beating her just keep it down, please send me the trust worthy link, not just some random person talking that has this report or claim thanks.

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

If you read my post you will see that I very much agree that Jake had nothing to do with the assault on Victoria. Even if Mercades had physically hit Victoria I would still feel the same. I think Gomp. has been bringing up issues on that one. I don’t believe that he is relevant to this assault at all. So I am not really sure why you are directing that comment to me.

The reason why your daughter is mentioned more than the others is because you blog on this post. You comment on her and her role (or lack their of) in this case. If any of the other girls mothers came on here their daughters would be brought to the center as well. So perhaps if you do not want to feel as if Mercades is being unfairly attacked, your responses should be directed in a different direction.

You state the obvious that this was not a rape or murder. It was however as you yourself know a violent and inexcusable crime. It caused permenant physial damage to another human being. So this is where the “they are children” comments are a little harder to weigh in on.

Obviously, by their actions they showed no signs of having fully developed adult minds. Of course we can also argue that so many adults commit violent crimes perhaps some brains never evolve in this way. I am not saying this applies to your daughter. I do not know what her mentality is at this stage.

This we always disagree on. However, you claim if put respectfully you will do the same. The sheriff showed the tape. Yes. To me do his comments weigh on how I perceive the actions on the tape. No. Anyone could have shown it and I would have felt the same emotions. That was disgust and extreme anger for ALL of the girls involved. Whether they were beating her, yelling in the background (which your daughter did do some of that) or just watching this horrendous act with no response.

So your continually bringing up corruption or the sheriff’s nephew really makes no difference in the way this crime is viewed. That will go towards your civil suit. The criminal actions of these girls speak for themselves. I do not need a sheriff corrupt or not don’t know dictating how I feel. Your daughter’s first appearance was not in a good light. However that was because she was on the tape with the violent beating. That would be my first impression of her if it was just shown all by itself.

As for all of the other girls I feel the exact same way. I will say as much to any of their family members who choose to comment on this post. So singling out Mercades was the worst of course not. Any more favortism towards her because she did not actually hit Victoria. No as well. That should not really matter to you in the long run though. We are not the ones who will make these decisions.

If you want respect shown the same should be afforded to us as well. Stating that “something is wrong with you people” is not respectful. Surely if someone made this comment to you, you would fire back with a vengance.

I have stated over and over again that perhaps their was no ‘ringleader’. Their seems to be enough anger amongst the girls not to require one. Egging each other on is quite evident by prior encounters and things heard on the tape. So I myself feel a little to much importance has been placed on a trival fact. Six girls were there. Six girls were responsible.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Phil- sent you another one, you didn’t get it? Let me try the other address…sorry guys.

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January 17, 2009

Phil

Hi Christina
theledger.com select the Crime and justice section on the left side of the page
under local news
select Video Tape Beating
Select Victoria’s Lindsay statement
this will be found on Pg 10
Cristina pleas read pg 11 and 12 .
This deals with the drive to CVS This is again the Victims signed statement not what was said by the sherrif .
Please post to what you read if you can.
It may help you understand why i have my views .

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

AmyV,

Really? What did Mercades scream at Tori about? All I heard was Tori yelling to Mercades I thought you were my friend, and my child responding ” Did I tell you to leave?” Hm..thats not yelling to me, but perhaps you are speaking about another time. And I brought up Marcus because of the bail example which is very importaNT to this case, it shows there is a motive here for corrpution on behalf og Judd . If an adult committed a crime, that would be a different situation altogether. But they didn’t these are all children and while an adult would need a professional in court to proove he or she has a child mindset, these children don’t, it is a given. I am sorry if you think I was insulting, just firing back as you say like I was informed I could do. And in my mind you are not at liberty to say how you would respond without Judd’s comments, because you were not afforded that choice. Sorry

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,

Ok, I went to the site, look Newman made 2 or more statements from Tori and released the one that more calaberated with Judd’s statements. Please email me, I want to show you something. I will pay for this postage and shipping, I just can’t take this anymore, you need access to this, being that you are so interested in this case. And Tori admits to calling Lisa to meet her at CVS sorry but the kidnapping charges are going to be thrown on the window. Please email me right away.

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January 17, 2009

Amyv

Christina – Respectfully disagree. I was in no way seeking your permission to speak my mind about my impressions. You do not have the authority over me to afford me any choices. That is my decision and mine alone.

This is a site where we are able to speak freely without restrictions. Unless of course they are comments of a threatening matter. That would be unexceptable by everyone.

So I will take my libertys as I see fit. You are also a guest on this blog. Not the narrator. You do not command anymore respect or power than anyone else posting here. Sorry hon.

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

Wow, before I comment anything else to you, lets see if everyone else sees my post as you do or if they understood what I meant. Because I sure wasn’t threatening you. Nor was I trying to control you Hon.

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January 17, 2009

Garland

Greetings. How’s everything going for all of you? I just happened to sign the petition that Gomp was talking about earlier.

Hi, Christina, I just sent you an E-mail regarding more information that you say that you have. Hopefully, you’ll receive it.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

To Christina and Amy- I have to go with Christina on this one, Amy. I don’t think there was any threat or restriction implied or stated but I think that, like Garland, you and Phil might find it interesting to see what additional information is available. It can really be hard to interpret a person’s meaning when all you see is a faceless voiceless text message and maybe one day we’ll all do webcam but for now we have to make the best of it.
And while some people used to say “next year in Jerusalem” I say “next year in Florida” because right now Florida looks like the promised land to me. 🙂

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

So Gomp, you know who I meant that didn’t afford her this option correct? I even went back and reread my post just to see, and I don’t feel I said or did anything wrong. And this was my exact point to Phil, as I said I walk the wire, while everyone else can run wild.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Hi, Garland from Virginia! Or should we call you “No.29?” lol

I wonder where all the other people went, you know, the ones that used to say how they would like the perpetrators to suffer horrible torment? Punishment has its uses, but it can’t take the place of support and healing for the victims. We can show support for Victoria and all victims by the simple act of signing a petition and take it from there. Intent must be shown by deeds, not just words, do we all agree on that?

But don’t mind me, I’m just the 900 pound Buddhist gorilla in the room. lol

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January 17, 2009

Garland

Hi, Gomp, to be honest, I don’t know where everyone went that said that they would like the girls to be punished for what they did. Probably either because they have forgotten all about the case or that they think that nothing will get resolved. That’s just me. I do agree with you that intent must be shown by deeds. Actions speak louder than words.

I do happen to be number 29 on the petition! Hopefully, more people would be able to sign up, but I doubt that it will be possible to get to 1000 signatures at this point. Perhaps this should have been done when the case first started?

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

Couldn’t you post it on Craigslist under free stuff? Or on a site where alot of people go? Do you want me to give our local reporter your number or something? She might come talk to whoever started it. Who knows. Email me and let me know.

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January 17, 2009

Phil

To Garland
I have read alot of your post here and on Topix. Most people in my opinion believe there will be a plea deal .if there is a trial then you will see all the people coming out of the wood work. The other thing for me is it is hard to keep reminding people of the same thing which is the guilt of those involved . I just see it being whittled away as time goes on .But if there is evidence then that should be looked at

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January 17, 2009

christina garcia

The first thread for this post has an ad at the top that says ” get mercades Nichols at great prices” this is not even funny!!!! I already know and for the few that might laugh picture your daughter’s name there instead.

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January 17, 2009

gompertz

Christina- I’ve been out playing in the snow and just got back. I’m going to think about your suggestion about getting the word out about the petition and I do mean I will really think about it and get some more input before I act on it.

About the ad, I understand why you would get upset. Still, knowing a little about the way a google search works, I don’t think it was put there deliberately. The google search engine consists of hundreds of thousands of computers that try to match the words you key into the search box with whatever items seem to fit from all over the Internet. When you key in “Mercades’” the search engine guesses you might mean somebody named Mercades or even Mercedes or the car by that name and I think those ads come up automatically through the actions of thousands of computers generating responses to your key words and associating those words with whatever they find all over the Internet including ads for all kinds of stuff that might have nothing to do with what you are looking for. I think Trench or somebody at B5 Media knows more specifically about the ads but one thing I know is that there are always people with messed up minds who will get the wrong idea, but that’s their problem.

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January 18, 2009

Phil

Any one have any ideas what will happen on the 20th .
Christina does Mercades or the other girls have to appear or is it just the Lawyers again.
Does anyone think that any pleas will be announced ,I am personally suprised that they haven’t been able to settle with Kayla .

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January 18, 2009

christina garcia

No, we planned on going but her attorney made the waiver. Its probably better this way anyway. I don’t anticipate anything different coming from Tuesday’s court date : (

And Gomp: I didn’t google her name I mean I understand that much. And it didn’t just say Find Mercades for lower prices, it said Mercades Nichols. It is very tacky. I spelled her name differently so people wouldn’t do this so much but it seems people will just do whatever. If Trench can explain this to me I will listen.

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January 18, 2009

gompertz

Christina may have a point about the ad. Trench, if you are listening, is there something about the ad that says “get Mercades Nichols at great prices” that may be cause for concern? Or is it just the search engine doing whatever search engines do? Just asking.

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January 18, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Sorry, I have no control over that. That’s just Google being Google.

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January 19, 2009

gompertz

Hi, just checking in. These days I have legal business of my own and it will continue for the foreseeable future. Though it is more tedious than threatening, it is still a reminder of how unpleasant it can be to deal with lawyers no matter what the subject may be. They are called sharks for good reason and they will eat you alive if you let them even if they are supposed to be representing your interests.

As for tomorrow’s hearing in Bartow I don’t expect anything that happens there to be mentioned in the media especially with all eyes focused on Obama’s coronation, oops- I meant inauguration….

Still for the people involved down there I’m sure that will be the main concern and though it doesn’t affect me personally I can still feel a little of the pain of everyone going through this process with the outcome still uncertain. Though I think Christina and her daughter would like to see it end in some kind of fair and appropriate sentence, the others might prefer to see the process dragged out with more pre-trial hearings. Now at some point you would expect the judge to intervene and say enough is enough and set a trial date . He really does have that power, doesn’t he? The workings of the courts, just like the workings of computers, take on a life of their own and sometimes some human intervention is called for. Just like search engine computers that work impersonally and give us the things we are looking for and many more things we aren’t looking for and follow their own logic blindly and are indifferent to our preferences, the courts are not always responsive to human needs.

Christina says she doesn’t expect anything new to come from the hearing tomorrow. So when the Mayes lawyer said that the purpose of pre-trial hearings is to schedule more pre-trial hearings he wasn’t kidding. It isn’t easy to alter the way the courts work and if we rely on lawyers and judges to deliver justice we will be disappointed again and again. Though I have no advice to offer to make courts (or computers) more responsive to our needs, we know there is a higher power that does listen and that will answer us if we have faith and patience.

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January 19, 2009

Phil

I hope the judge says enough is enough .I know this must be hard on the defendants but as my concern has mostly been for the victim(Victoria),she has waited long enough for justice to be served .The defense has had nearly 9 months to get thier affairs in order , Even with the seriousness of the charges faceing the defendants its time for them to face the consequences of thier actions .

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January 19, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

I agree. How many times can you refuse plea deals before it is sort of like a hung jury. When does the judge say enough is enough lets go for a trial date. They seem to be at a complete stand still with these plea deal offers. If more of the same is expected on Tuesday what is to say this type of behavior will not continue for five more years. I really don’t understand the court system.

I am sure all of these girls would like to see a fair punishment and take a plea deal if it lienient enough. This could not be easy on any of these families. First and for most we agree Victorias.

Gomp –

Wow, I will stay away from the subject of politics on this blog. I feel it is more of a celebration of Bush finally getting out of office 🙂 This will be what I am celebrating. Sorry, I know politics, religion, etc.

I agree not much new will come of tomorrow. I will be truly surprise if it did. However, a fair resolution for all of these girls is much needed. However, all of them seem to have lawyers who will continue to drag it out in hopes of…Not sure what.

I really don’t know what tactics all of the lawyers for these girls are using since they all have different ones. The ones we are sure of have used Victoria as the beating post. So I assume this will just be more of the same.

I do not have all of the information you do on some of these lawyer or perhaps they are just lying low. Have not heard anything I believe about B.H. or a few of the others. Of course from what you have all said April Cooper’s lawyer seems to be the worst. I believe B.M.’s lawyers tactics are the same. Mercades lawyer publically announced his intentions for defense. However, I do understand she has a new one now.

Hopefully. something will come of it tomorrow. Doubtful but hopeful as I am sure everyone of these families are. Victoria sure has been drug through the ringer. I hope for her sake someone will have sense enough to put a stop to pretrail after pretrail.

How much do all of these pretrials costs the taxpayers. Or would that just apply to B.H. as she is the only one who could not afford her own attorney. Just one of those questions I don’t have an answer to.

Reply
January 19, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

On Topix, Unknown says the 5 girls will probably take the plea deal tomorrow, and that it is “fair and equitable.” I think I speak for everyone here in saying I hope that this finally brings closure to Victoria and allows the healing process to proceed. We’ll see.

As for my remark about a coronation…on the post “Obama’s would-be assassins” I said that Obama’s administration would be moderate like Clinton’s and that he would disappoint many on the left who expect him to initiate radical change. Now with so many Clintonites appointed to high positions in the new administration, I feel like a prophet. LOL

But seriously, I think that predicting the outcome of tomorrow’s meeting would take a prophetic gift at this time. What could be meant by saying the deal would be fair and would satisfy the requirements of justice for the victim? Even if there is a satisfactory conclusion tomorrow in court, it is not a conclusion to the healing process but only a beginning. My guess would be that a deal would involve some jail time, probably in a juvenile facility, and a lot of supervision with strict probation. Also counseling with some serious behavior modification therapy of some kind. Whatever happens, I think we will be hearing more from these people but I refuse to try to predict whether it would be good or bad.

As for me, I had another of those days and will try to get to bed sooner than usual. Can’t wait to hear about tomorrow but not likely any information will be coming from mainstream media.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Good morning everybody
It wll be interesting to see what happens today .I am not talking about Washington.If no plea deals are announced then of couse there will be disapointment and some anger from those of us that are still left.I kind of feel like we are watching a good cop bad cop routine . We were all pretty much outraged by the 6 months house rest scenario that now with more time gone by we would except almost anything stronger and count it as justice served . For us hardliners . which at one time meant throwing these girls into the deepest pits of hell to suffer years of untold torment now means anything over 2 years jail time seved in juvi. .Even with this we will be disapointed .
Any deal today for me will be a victory for the defence .This is a valuable lesson on why they dragged thier heals on this . The deal if annouced today would never have been accepted 5 months ago ..The outrage has died down . .The will to make a serious statement on a real problem is gone . The need of the victim to move on has replaced the need for justice to be served .
Society has been the looser in this since the tape hit the airwaves . We saw up close and personel the dehuaminazation of a young women by 6 other young womane before our eyes . ..The Victim and the defendants all lost whatever innocense youth provided ,spiraling them and thier families into a public nightmare . We as a society also have had our innocense (or naivity )taken away as well and can never again look at young female teenagers in the same way .They have truley reached the equality of thier male counterparts
..We as adults can now be truly afraid of the next generation .This is a stark and real change of being afraid for a generation. .When the plea deal is annouced ask yourself will this do anything to curb prevaliant bulling attached to a new and dangerous technoligy. The public noriety attached no longer brings shames but acceptance in this generation..My belief is that these plea deals leave our chlidren and socity at the mercey of of a generation without a moral compass ..If ever I have been mistaken .I hope it is now .I have too much at stake as do all of us with Children under 17. May God bless Victoria and send her comfort today and any other time that the events of May 30th intrude on her life . May God bless the defendants and thier families that they can shows us better of themselves that what we have seen .And from this Canadian on your very special day, God Bless America
Peace to you all

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

I don’t think young people will learn from the assault on Victoria Lindsay. And once the plea deals are announced what happened to Tori will go away and the youth of America will not have learned from this sad case and the dangers of assaulting someone for the sheer joy of taping it. And that is terrible. Tori’s life and eyesight will never be the same and the defendants will end up with slaps on the wrists in my opinion. They all should pay with jail time, probabtion, counseling and community service according for what they did to Tori and they all committed different levels of assault and improsonment against Tori. And that cannot be denied.

On a side note the Kidnapping charges against the girls should be dropped. But false imprisonment charges should stick especially to those who blocked the door on Tori and kept her inside the house obviously against her will.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Welcome back Scott
We will see what transpires but as I said in my above comments it will not be justice .
not for Victoria and not for society .

in my above post
I obviously meant March 30 not may 30

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Thanks Phil. I just wanted to step away from this story for a week. Hopefully somthing happens today. I would still settle for a trial if that’s what is needed.

Gomp, it’s too soon to tell about Obama. There is immense pressure for Obama to move to the far left and president Obama was the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate so he will be tempted to do so. And it was the big money of the far left that got him elected in the first place so they will want to get their reward fore getting Obama into the White House.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Same here Scott It is still a mystery why the judge has not taken contoll of this .If there is no plea deals he should set a trial date . .He or she does undrstand they have a tape of the crime .Right!.
I can understand you wanting a week off ,you have been at this alot longer then the rest of us ,. and sometimes we just keep going around in circles. Let’s hope by this time tommorow that we have something new to talk about.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Phil, it is a travesty of justice why there has been no trial date set 10 months after the video taped assault on Victoria Lindsay took place. The judges involved here are ridiculous. I guess things move faster if there is no evidence. )

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Scott you are so right about what you said about why all this time for a slap on the wrist plea ,that could of been given months ago.The only thing I can inmangine is that the defendants could not escape a felony charge on thier record if they reoffend .Everything is speculation at this point but like you I am not hopeful ..I still get very angry at these girls if I think about the visusl of the tape instead of the facts and I want them all in jail , with pictures of Victoria’s bruised face adorning the wall so each morning they know why they are there . With those sentiments its not hard to assume that I will be disapointed .

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

There is a new article from The Ledger about the Victoria Lindsay assault and battery case. Brittany Mayes accepted a plea deal while Kayla Hassall and April Cooper have plea hearings coming up on February 4, 2009. Why their plea deals couldn’t be resolved today is beyond me. It looks like there could be a trial for Brittini Hardcastle and Mercaes Nichols but that remains to be seen.

Mayes according to her lawyer denies touching Tori during the assault. But Tori says otherwise in her statement and that Mayes hit her a couple of times and held her while Hassall hit her. Who do you believe? I believe Tori. Why? Just like Amy I will always believe the victim rather than the defendant.

Here is today’s article from The Ledger.

Teen Accepts Plea Deal in Videotaped Beating Case

By Jason Geary
THE LEDGER

Published: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 2:34 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 2:37 p.m.
BARTOW | One teenage girl accepted a plea deal Tuesday in the infamous videotaped beating of a former Mulberry High School cheerleader.

A judge will decide what an appropriate punishment should be for Brittany Mayes .

Mayes, whose 18th birthday was Tuesday, pleaded guilty to misdemeanor battery, which carries a maximum punishment of a year in jail. Prosecutors agreed to drop felony charges of kidnapping and tampering with a witness, which carry maximum sentences of life in prison and five years in prison, respectively.

Two other girls are close to grabbing plea deals, but another two girls, who prosecutors describe as &ldquoacting most in concert&rdquo in the attack, are heading toward a trial.

The Polk County Sheriff&rsquos Office accused eight teenagers of participating in the March 30 beating of Victoria Lindsay, then 16, and threatening to post videos of it on YouTube and MySpace.

Charges against three teenagers were dropped because of insufficient evidence. Five girls continue to face charges.

Mayes&rsquo lawyer said the plea deal was in his client&rsquos best interests, and she denies touching Lindsay.

However, Assistant State Attorney Vincent Patrucco said testimony supports that Mayes struck Lindsay, and she also &ldquopromoted, encouraged and assisted&rdquo in the attack.

Under the terms of the negotiated plea, Circuit Judge Keith Spoto can sentence Mayes using either juvenile or adult sanctions for the battery charge.

The plea deal calls for the judge to use his discretion at the time of sentencing, meaning Mayes could face punishment below or up to a year in jail for battery.

Mayes must write a letter of apology to Lindsay, and Mayes cannot have contact with the media for profit.

Spoto told Mayes to avoid committing any other offenses while awaiting her sentencing on March 5. &ldquoYou need to keep your nose clean between now and then,&rdquo he said.

Lawyers for two other girls &mdash Kayla Hassall, 16, and April Cooper, 15, &mdash indicated Tuesday that their clients are prepared to accept plea deals on Feb. 4.

The fates of the two remaining girls could end up before a jury at a trial.

Prosecutors have negotiated plea agreements with Mercades Nichols, 17, and Brittini Hardcastle, 18, but both must agree to take the deals.

If one does not, then jury selection is scheduled to begin March 30 &mdash the one-year anniversary of the beating. Lawyers estimate the trial would take about two or three days to complete.

Hardcastle&rsquos lawyer, Deborah Wells, said her client is willing to take the deal. Nichols&rsquo lawyer, Melissa Wilson, indicated she would have to discuss the deal further with her client.

Patrucco explained why both girls must take the deals or else head to trial.

He said the State Attorney&rsquos Office did not want to strike a deal with Hardcastle &mdash a &ldquomain perpetrator&rdquo in the case &mdash &ldquowhile we leave blowing in the wind Miss Nichols.&rdquo

Nichols and Hardcastle should be treated &ldquosimilarly if not identically,&rdquo he said.

&ldquoThey acted most in concert &ndash one with the other,&rdquo Patrucco said.

Nichols and Hardcastle face charges of kidnapping, misdemeanor battery and tampering with a witness.

[ Jason Geary can be reached at jason.geary@theledger.com or 863-802-7536. ]

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Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

I can understand why the SAO might want a trail for Brittini Hardcastle but I don’t know why they need a trial for Mercades when Brittini was the one who inflicted the damage on Tori. Mercades really should have gotten a plea deal.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

A disgusting slap on the wrist .no long probation
no admintence of guilt .an absolute Freaking Joke ..

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Prosecutors dropped charges of felony kidnapping and tampering with a witness for Brittany Mayes. If they did that for her shouldn’t they do the same thing for Brittini and Mercades since all 3 drove Tori to CVS and all 3 tampered with a witness. Allegedly. And no one buys the felony kidnapping charges. False imprisonment yes, felony kidnapping no.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

The SAO must have the evidence that Mercades was involved in the planning .I would not doubt that this came from BH herself in working out the plea deal .Alss Scott the fact that it took place at her place does carry extra legal resonsibility .Also breaking her agreement with regards to the other charges probally is not helping . It also may not be that bad of a plea offer just that they do not want Mercades going to trial where she could potentialy get more than BH . It did say that Mercades was offered a deal.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Phil, some people will see this as a slap on the wrist for Brittany Mayes. Mayes plead guilty to misedemeanor battery which could get her up to a year in jail. The judge will make the call on that on March 5, 2009 when he hands down her sentence. The judge should also hit Mayes with probation, community service and perhaps counseling as well. Some will say she got off lucky and you and I are 2 of those people Phil. Especially if she doesn’t do any time at all.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Scott says “The judge should also hit Mayes with probation, community service and perhaps counseling as well.”
How can he give extra Scott . she pleaded guilty to a charge that carries a maximum one year sentence . I do not think that you can add to that . I hope i am wrong but i do not think so ,
An absolute miscarage of justice

Reply
January 20, 2009

christina garcia

I just got home, very long day : ( and the outcome from today is very sad, acually it angers me. But that’s the nice thing about living here, you don’t have to except trash!

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Phil, you might be right about Mayes not getting anything other than up to a year in jail after her plea deal. But how could she not get probation too? It has to be tough for you Christina to see other defendants getting plea deals or getting off and Mercades might have to go to trial. You must be pulling your hair out. I hope there is an end in sight for you, Mercades and Mary.

Reply
January 20, 2009

gompertz

With Mayes and probably Cooper getting sweet deals it looks like the vicious tactics of their lawyers have paid off, and that should come as no surprise to anyone who knows how the system works. As I have said many times, this thing won’t be over just because the court has pronounced its judgment. Interesting that the judge admonished Mayes “You need to keep your nose clean between now and then,” meaning up until sentencing on March 5. Presumably if she refrains from overt acts of violence up until March 5 she can expect less than the maximum of one year. And after that the old team can gather around the bonfire and plan new adventures. 😮
I don’t know what deal they offered Mercades but the assertion that she and Brittni Hardcastle acted most in concert seems ominous. Didn’t the prosecutors hear Mayes groaning in encouragement? Didn’t they understand the implications of the bonfire incident and the threats from Mayes and Cooper that originated with that? Or are they just too cowardly to do battle with the two most brutal of the lawyers and their unrepentant clients?

So, stay tuned. This isn’t over and it won’t be over whatever the courts do.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

If Mercades an BritH were a team
so were Bm and April . Truley a slap on the wrist for confining ,attacking,and filming the beating . You hate to wish someone more harm but when the system
fails to do its job it brings all the crazies out .These girls better be careful. I do not think they will find a forgiving society waiting to embrace them when this is over .Another year in prison would have probally saved Bm lots of grief or at least some meaningful probation to apease a cynical and fustratred public,

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Gomp, it’s very strange the way the prosecutors say Mercades and Hardcastle organized the assault on Tori. If you believe Tori and we all do then April and Mayes were sending her threatening emails saying they were going to get her and such. They along with Hardcastle seem to be the most agressive in making Tori pay with Mercades lagging behind them. And Kayla had boy issues with Tori and she brought her mother’s video camera for a reason and not by aciident. I don’t see how Mercades gets blamed for being the braintrust in all fo this. She is partly to blame but after the other 5 for sure as far as physically hurting Tori goes.And Gomp i also see mayes getting less than one year. Maybe 6 monthsn a nd out in 3 months with good behaviour. But will days already served in jail and house arrest count as part of her jail time? Maybe.

Phil, the public will not be happy with the plea deals and the light sentences these girls get. Especially after hearing life in prison and such and sheriff Judd spew about the outrageousness of this case in the beginning. But you can’t find Judd anywhere talking about this case now. Why the hell not? O bet he knew the girls would get off lightly and is embarrasased about that. Will this story even get any decent media coverage now? I have my doubts. I want all the girls to get second chances at young ages. But I want them to receive sentences with some teeth in them and with serious probation attached to their sentences. Probation could help keep them on the straight and narrow in the future.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Amyv

I am really not that surprised that slaps on the wrist were handed out. I have seen this over and over with criminals. Kind of doesn’t go along with the “Florida is horrible to teenagers” defense. Brittany Mayes will keep her nose clean and I suspect that will mean an extremely light sentece.

As for April and Kayla I expect more of the same. Surely, we have once again taught our youth well. As Phil said they are a generation to be feared. Mommy and Daddy will continue to condone their behaviors. Lawyers will blame it on the victim. The tape obviously was not clear enough. So lets see what has Brittany Mayes learned. Oh yes, we can beat a girl half to death, hold her against her will, gain extreme satisfaction, tape it and wow look at this no punishment.

So any remorse these girls gain from this they will have to come to that conclusion on their own. Adults certainly have shown them nothing but how to commit a horrendous crime and get away with it.

Phil – Yes your son and my daughter are growing up in an extremely violent and dangerous society of teenagers. So keep them close. Do like Gompertz says and teach them to defend them self at all cost. Because they are on their own when we are not there looking over their shouldes.

As for why the prosecutor chose to treat B.H. and Mercades equally something their we must not know. One of these girls must have confirmed something for them to all get a slap on the wrist (I believe). Perhaps the premeditation. Although, Phil and I have agreed all along their should be enough evidence for all of these girls to have been a party to that.

I believe most of society has forgotten this crime since it has been almost a year. However, as Gomp. says it is still no all the way over. It looks like Mercades and Brittany will go to trial. That i where all of these girls belonged in the first place.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Electronica

ok i read britti and merc both have to take it or they both go to trial thats wierd. so im thinking maybe britti goes over and beats merc and tells her you better take it or im gonne beat you up again next week. and merc calls the cops and they say haha we dont care. ok its wrong if britti does that but itd pretty funny. but only if merc doesnt get hurt.

you know they make it look like its all for merc so shes not alone. its in the ledger. but im thinking hows that any good if i was merc id be like dont try me together with britti shes gonne make ppl real angry cause shes the worst on the vid and im gonne get punished more if im like her asociate get her away from me.

and i cant find much on april and kayla if anyone knows something let me know thats what i wanne know.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Scott

Excellent post Amy. I guess the video tape wasn’t clear enough for the prosecution. ) They could have sent these girls away for a couple to a few years in jail and no one would have said a peep about it. And to wait 10 months to hand out a sentence like this is assinine. And Mayes won’t even get a yer in the slammer. Talk about a sweet deal. Especially since she was the driving force to get Tori and not Mercades. Oh well I hope all the girls have some serious probation so they don’t do crazy things in the future. If they think they got away with Tori’s assault they won’t have laerned anything from this. And the same goes for the myspace generation who has forgotten about this case and what was done to the victim. yes there as a victim. I think. Maybe the judge can explain how Tori received justice today or when Mayes is sentenced March 5, 2009. And why the hell do we need to wait another month and a half for the judge to sentence Mayes? So we can reach the one eyar anniversary of the assault? It’s crazy. And Mercades is still stuck in no man’s land as far as her sentence goes.

Reply
January 20, 2009

Phil

Electronica
Excellent post .i now believe Mercades is afraid of Bh .Can you imagine her having to sit with her at trial. Irony is so Ironic .I really think BH is ready to admit to that Mercades hepled paln this in order to get her pleas deal .But who knows .

Reply
January 20, 2009

gompertz

Whenever I watched the video in which Judge Spoto appeared I would try to figure out what he was like. Was he a thoughtful and objective jurist or a clueless robot reflecting the values of a depraved legal system? I think I received an answer today. When he says “keep your nose clean” until sentencing day we see what message he is sending. Be patient for a few weeks, don’t beat anybody up, or I might be forced to get tough and sentence you to the whole twelve months. But after that you can do what you want. I find it ridiculous that the judge also ordered her to write a letter of apology. Is that because he knows she has no intention of apologizing on her own volition? I sincerely hope this pathetic judge does not expect Victoria to actually read this letter of apology, because that would really be a renewed humiliation for the victim. Let us hope that at least the judge leaves Victoria with the option of leaving this court-ordered letter of “apology” unopened, and writing on it
REFUSED–RETURN TO SENDER
and then we will wait and see if her attackers ever reach the point where they can issue an apology that is not mandated by the court.

Reply
January 20, 2009

GregS

elecronica what you said makes the most sense, by making BH and Mercades sit together it ruins the reputation of Mercades in the media no matter what sentence she gets. Its about public perception right now, and that is Mercade’s biggest weakness.

Whether Mercades is a bad person or not, she looks bad when associated with BH, and so they will continue to let the media believe Mercades organized and is the ring leader as a punishment.

It seems like the punishment for Mercades will be to her reputation, and thats actually worse than going to jail. It’s worse to look like a bad person than to go to jail looking like a good person because being a bad person or being associated with bad people sticks to you forever, even if you change later on in life people will remember you were associated with BH. BH’s rep is damaged beyond repair at this point, while Mercades at least has a chance to fix her image IF she’s not portrayed as the mastermind or gang leader.

I think they gave April Cooper a plea for the same arguments you made, because she’s only 14/15.

Reply
January 21, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
In plea deals having the guilty person wright a letter of apology is common pratice .Think of it this way .The same way Victoria was humiliated for apoagizing ,the defendants now must all take thier turn to do the same .Ordered by law to put it in wrighting.A small victory for Victoria to be sure but it is a victoy .Eye for an eye .These letters should be trophies for Victoria .Ooh Baby ohh Yeah Britniay Mayes will have this tape follow her .Her absoultly disgusting sounds will do her more damage then April’s Hitting in the public’s mind .

why would the State be tying this to Mercades and not offering her the same sweet deal that BM recievrd . She did not hit Victoria .This is a fact that no-one disputes
Most people do things for a logical reason (to them )even at first if it is not apparently logical to anyone else .Example Mercades don’t hit the shelf” Less disgust (by some ) attched to this when we find out about the ashes on the shelf.
Conjecture on my part but I think during the course of the investigation or when working out the plea deals ..BM and April were asked how did you end up at Mercades place .I am now pretty sure that the response was .BH and Mercades told us to get our buts over here because we are goint to get Victoiria . .We all said we knew it was planned .BM and April could not have been in on the planning . that could have only acted on the invite .Mercades would have known of the evnts at the bonfire ..If there was not the strong evidence to support this the penalities are to severe for malicious proscecution.I am not saying this does not ever happen . You may risk this with peolpe you really want to get ,Mobsters rapist and such but the state could have easily throw every one of these girls including Cara under the bus .Without mercades this assult does not take place .

Reply
January 21, 2009

christina garcia

I don’t know where you guys are getting your info but Mercades’ attorney did set a trial date for her And lets keep the plea deal offered off the boards please, just email me and be patient I will write you back.

Reply
January 21, 2009

gompertz

Phil-Of course it’s possible that Victoria will look at the letter of apology as a victory but viewed in the context of the sentence as a whole I don’t see how it’s so great. Because I can’t get over feeling that Mayes got away with something I don’t see the letter as anything but a formality but then it’s not my call.

Let’s focus on the point Electronica made that Mercades is now afraid of Ms Hardcastle. It’s possible that BH is now pointing at Mercades as the instigator to save herself. But let’s take the next obvious step and ask if Ms Hardcastle is now afraid of Mayes and Cooper. I don’t understand you saying “BM and April could not have been in on the planning” when we know they were planning it ever since the bonfire. Maybe not the specific location and time but they had the intention of inflicting violence on Victoria at least from that time on. Do you really think they had no influence on Ms Hardcastle? Was it Mercades’ powers of persuasion that made her so enthusiastic for violence?
Remember when I first brought up the possibility that BH was influenced by someone I suggested she was an outsider who was trying to fit in with a group of tough girls. I think it was her desire for acceptance that made her act like she did. Yes, people do things for logical reasons or at least reasons that seem logical to them. Would it be logical to think BH put herself in the middle of that video just because one person told her stories about Victoria? And why the additional “trophy” photo of Victoria after the beating? Did she really want that photo just for her own satisfaction? Or was it to impress the “gang?” Just from what I know about the way gangs or groups work it looks like the new recruit was enticed by the promise of winning favor with the whole group and then left to take the blame while the real instigators get the sweet deal. It happens all the time and the way prosecutors proceed they don’t look at the big picture but focus narrowly on the event itself. That’s why they miss the whole context of the influence of the larger group and focus on the house where the event happened and the phone calls immediately leading up to it. From the point of view of legality it wouldn’t be malicious prosecution because they did their job the same way they habitually do by focusing on the immediate circumstances rather than the events going back to the bonfire (and maybe beyond). But when we look at the softball girls at the bonfire we might ask did they only get together to play softball or were they tied together by deeper connections. If Ms Hardcatsle the new recruit implicates Mayes and Cooper does she have to fear retaliation from the whole group? She’s not big and strong and tough enough to take on the whole “softball” team. Did SAO bother to investigate that? Probably not. Unless someone pointed out to SAO that there was a reason to suspect some deeper group involvement in motivating Ms Hardcastle SAO could not be accused of malice for doing a routine investigation the same way they usually do. Unless SAO really had a reason to suspect that Ms Hardcastle had something to fear from this group SAO could not be accused of negligence for not asking this kind of question because investigations have to limit themselves to what the investigators think is relevant and questions can’t go on forever. So anyway I see nothing unusual in the whole finger pointing behavior but the finger tends to get pointed on the one with the least power and influence while the real instigators get away with a lenient sentence and oh yes don’t forget the letter of apology that makes everything better like a bandage that wont stop the bleeding. Let’s just hope that those who are responsible for defending the rights of the accused help SAO to look at the big picture. Otherwise we will see the same kind of injustice we see so often and with the publicity this case has generated it is imperative that they get it right. People take the fall all the time for the big powerful group and the real instigators stay in the background.But as Greg says in this case the need is even greater to get the facts straight and all the facts, because the damage to the reputation of Mercades will be irreperable
and that would be really tragic. So again, this is not over and it won’t be over when the courts have finished with this case but let’s make sure SAO really does the job with the thoroughness this high-profile case deserves.

Reply
January 21, 2009

christina garcia

No, Thanks to Grady Judd the public knows just as much as SAO does, nobody will be playing that card with me! This is just all trash, and although she will be 18 on Saturday, mommy isn’t going anywhere. When they place the duct tape over her mouth, I will be here to speak for her and for myself…Understand this, I have no problems with my daughter being punished for her involvment, but Polk County is so back woods, it would bring out the ugly in anyone. Nobody can or will shut me up, and this just makes me return to the thought of my book, if you recall after hearing all your opinions here, I decided maybe not such a good idea, but guys I am being pushed closer and closer to that cliff, and I’m ready to jump. I wish we would have filed for a change of venue, yes I know the case is nation wide, but I believe in my heart she would’ve gotten a fairer trial somewhere else. Jesus Crist almight would not stand a chance in front of a Polk County Judge or the mayberry legal system.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Hi Christina .
I made it pretty clear that I was guessing .Its pretty hard not to want to comment on all the goings on .I would also ask you to have the same patience . all of us have Ideas and opinions to not only what took place ,but just as important why it took place .We do look forward to what info you can share .Sounds like you are doing a bit better today . Hope thats the case

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January 21, 2009

gompertz

Christina, I hope that all this turmoil hasn’t led to neglecting Mercades’ education. Is she being home schooled? The troubles of today will pass somehow and it isn’t too early to think about the future and I hope Mercades is thinking about college.

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January 21, 2009

Scott

The alleged letters of apology will ring hollow to Tori. It’s much too little and much too late.

I am amazed that Mercades seems to be on the hook here as much as Hardcastle is and more than clubber Cooper is. It doesn’t add up. Maybe the girls have pinned the set up on Mercades. I don’t know.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Hi Gomp
Good speculatin but no evidence . the text messenging seems to orginate with Mercades and BH. There is no way to proove your points as they are Pyscological speculatin on what could influence someone . when i brought up earlier the point about BM being the one to push BH’s buttons Scott repied back that BH was already rearing to go “If Victoria doesn’t change her atitutude BH is going to beat her up and i am not going to stop it ” occured before April aand BM arrived . your points almost add to my points . There must be evidence to support one of these theorys . The text messages probally confirm this .I am not saying that one or the other BM or April would not lie to implicate Mercades and Bh..All of these people through thier lawyers are in survival mode .Each looking out for thier own interest. .When it all said and done .I believe all of the defendants will have gotten off easier than thier actions warented .
I am truly disgusted with the sentece given to BM. and i will probally will be with the rest of them

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Scott .
I just put a peanut on your last post at Topix.not that i disagree but anybody can just select “judge it “and put in the symmbol wanted.
I don’t post there because Acording to me i am brilliant so those peanuts would really hurt my ego(Lol) .

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January 21, 2009

Scott

Phil, it seems like you believe Mercades was in on the whole thing from the beginning because of the text mesages and phone calls from Mercades and Brittini to Tori. You make interesting points.

Too bad they don’t have the peanut system here. ) Phil why don’t you post at Topix? Since you go there you should post there.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Scott
I have made those claims from the very beginnig in regards to Mercades .How do you get all those people with a camera in one house
I am going to cut and paste an earier post of mine it light of the new developments thay seem even more pertinent .I was resonding to gomp

I am going to type in part of Victoria&rsquos statement Gomp in regard to Mercades andto assult and battery pg 10 of Victoria&rsquos statement at he ledger

He said the cops are coming .Someones coming its getting loud . MERCADES SAiD YOU DON&rsquoT HAVE TO STOP BEATING HER JUST QUIET IT DOWN PLEASE.
At this point BH knuckles are bleeding and she tells me you think your lips are busted wait t&rsquoill I bust your nose.I guess her goal was to break my nose .So her kuckles are all busted upand they do it for a couple moe minutes and finaly Mercades IS LIKE ENOUGH WE HAVE TO GO TO GET MY NANA THE NEIGHBOURS ARE COMING .

Gomp I capitized to highlight not to yell.But this directly shows her involvement in the beating was not just a spectator she told someone in her house to continue beating another person .Your egg analogy, if you told your friends to keep on throwing or doing mischief you certainly can&rsquot claim that i don&rsquot controll the actions of others .
.Also it shows that Mercades is in controll she tells BH to contiue .BH continues .She tell BH to stop BH stops .No argruments .no few more shhots just because .BH doesen&rsquot turn around and tell Mercades to mind her own buisness .. None of the other girls argue the point . This is the evedence ,Its not like I am the type of person who says well some one&rsquos resposible lets make it her .
These statements take place in the defendants home you add the text messaging involvement and her inviting all the people that had a known grudge .I am sorry Gomp but it is way more than guilty by assoiciation.

The reasons i did not post at Topix .,is they show where you are posting from since I am from Canada i saw to many people from other countries told to mind thier own buisnees ,what right do you have critsizing our systems when yours are no better, and stuff like that . i did not want a USA vrs Canada debate , i am now i hope established enough here where that won’t be an issue and I can give my opinions freely .

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January 21, 2009

gompertz

Phil, I think the real reason you don’t post on Topix is those peanuts which can be so traumatic. lol I only put nice icons up on that thread but I will admit I’m the one who put “meanie face” icons all over the I Hate People Who Hate Hannah Montana thread which for some reason is still up on the Staten Island Wire Topix. See, I feel better now, confession is good for the soul! Anyway, please don’t give Trench ideas about starting that judging stuff over here, not unless you can tell who judged you and you can get them back. lol

Scott, completely off topic but could you email me at
wgompertz@yahoo.com

Anyway for saying “completely off topic” they would have given me a few lemons over at Topix because saying “completely off topic” is all the encouragement some people need to give you a lemon and let you know you are completely off topic.

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January 21, 2009

Garland

Gompertz,

I don’t think you can’t tell who put the icons there. It doesn’t matter whatever people judge you or think that your “Nuts”, “Clueless”, “Mean”, etc. of what those icons go by as. They’re ignorant people who doesn’t understand the truth about things. Also, I never take a lot of things off of the media, as they are always wrong about many things. That’s like believing everything that’s off of the National Enquirer (which I USED to read back in 2004, until I realized how FAKE they are in every aspect.). I go by what the person says. There are always two sides to every story. And I feel sympathethic for Victoria mostly. She didn’t deserve this beating at all, nor did she deserve to have her past brought up when it had nothing to do with this case whatsoever. It’s very despicable. Plus like Robert says, Karma will catch up with what the lawyers &amp the girl’s parents are doing to Victoria.

I also don’t think that any of those girls should get the privilege of being on TV or whatever. What they need to do is to take responsibility for their actions for their part in what they did. You see, THAT’S why we have so many unruly &amp out of control children in this country right now, because parents won’t make them take responsibility for things of what they do wrong, don’t raise them right to respect other people, &amp especially don’t teach them to respect authority.

Plus it’s ridiculous that we have to wait [B]this[/B] long for the girls to be receiving plea offers, when this all could have been done many, many months ago. It’s mind boggling.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Garland
Agree with everything you say .It is amazing that it took 9 months to put together a slap on the wrist plea deal together . .the only thing I can think of is that thier would have been outrage 5 to 8 months ago now everybody has moved on. .
Why do people always have to get paid to get thier message accross .
does this mean that all of you who have read my comments now owe me money .( Canadian funds Only)
And Gomp put away that peanut. (lol)

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January 21, 2009

gompertz

Garland-
I have always been opposed to the idea of any of the girls being on TV or making money on movie deals. I hope the judge made that a stipulation for all of them, that no one can talk to the media about it in such a way that brings them some dubious celebrity status. The problem is, the video is out there and will always be out there. As Unknown says, that video could pop up anytime in the future on some TV show about ‘mean girls” or “teen violence” without warning and for Victoria there is no escape. That’s the thing that makes this case unique, the humiliation can always be renewed. For Victoria to be able to move on she would have to focus on her education and succeed in some chosen field. Maybe one day she will win a Nobel Prize for Medicine and that might cancel out the image of the video. Anyway it would have to involve something of a public nature to counteract the effects of the video, because the video is public and will always be out there. That is also why there has to be some public action by the girls themselves to balance out the evil of the deed. If they can express true repentance and speak out against the violence in our culture, all of society would benefit, not just them and Victoria. They could speak at rallies against bullying and write about what they have learned from their mistakes and show how other young people can move beyond the culture of violence. After all, they are already known by millions of people and they can’t simply hide, and the video will never go away. That’s something very different from the circus atmosphere of Dr Phil or Oprah and I see no good coming from anything like that.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

They will able to appear on these t.v.shows if they want to do good or get thier side of the thier sorry storey out, give interviews and write books . or do rallys ,speak to children and the youth in schools .Without money attached the do-gooders quickly fall to the wayside .because its never about the money is it.

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January 21, 2009

christina garcia

No, what messes with teenagers, is seeing someone who did the beating and hitting walking away and they get charged with crap they didn’t even do. Nobody here is ever going to understand the corrupt world we live in over here, authorities here don’t know what justice is! And garland, what parents were you talking about? I hope not me, because that would be the furthest from the truth. Sorry, but I feel it teaches them that they might as well have hit her thierself, if they’re going to take the fall for it. No, violence is never the way, I know this. But this is what a teen will take away from the situation, PERIOD.

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January 21, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,

Thank you for your kind words and confidence in Mercades that she hasn’t learned anything, and only think that she is after money.I know you did not call her out specifically, but you talking about them as a whole puts her in it. I could’ve submitted my book a long time ago, but I chose not to. But you can bet everything you have that any chance i get to make money off of telling the truth about Judd and everybody else that fabricated things, I sure will.

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January 21, 2009

christina garcia

And I love how we pick and chose what we believe from Tori’s statements, when the video proved she was not telling the truth on many things, wether we believe it was a lie or that she couldn’t think clearly, isn’t it possible that this too was a mistake? If you read the victim’s statements and follow along in the video, the video was on when she says Mercades said you don’t have to stop hitting her, because the comment on her statement before and after are on the video.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

To Christina
I never said any of them were in it for the money Christina , or that Mercades has not learned anything . You may feel free to imply all you want as I said this is the place for opinions ,Which are like 2 legs everybodys got them . These terms have been attached to BM and it is right to assume that all the rest will not be able to be paid for interviews . Why are you always acting surprised at my opinions .I have been very clear to the point of ridiculously repeating myself that i do not believe anyone at any time besides Victoria should see one red cent of money for talking about this case . When have i not been clear on this and my views about Mercades.
I would look at it as a real sign of true repentence and change if I turned on Operah or any other show and saw any of the defendants on the show because I would know because of the judges rulings , its not about the money but because they have something important to say ,Even if it is to correct misconceptions or to say we got it all wrong .As to when i believe Victoria’s statement that is harder to answer but it is usually when she repeats clear quotatios and describes events in sequense . When she uses the words they it is harder to know the extent of her words ,. Both with the kidnapping and the qoutation on ” Keep hitting her ” by Mercades . The detail is very clear and percise .There is no ambiguity in what she is saying.. But why Christina would you think i should not believve the written statement of Victoria . I am basing my opinins on the evidence and not just what people feel about things .We keep on haveing this same conversation .If you have been told different things by your daughter or have seen different evidense that i am not privey to then you believe that .If i have presented something that is not supoorted by the evidence or it is wrong please let me know where .But I will ask you for your evidence to back it up the same way as anyone else and will ask you the same qustions you are asking of me.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Was there any Video of yesterdays hearings . If yes where

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January 21, 2009

Scott

Christina, how did Mayes get the tampering charges dropped but not Mercades or Hardcastle? Not yet anyway. All 2 were in the car taking Tori to meet her friend at CVS. They weren’t taking her out to the woods to leave her there.

And Christina what’s with this Vincent Patrucco the assistant state attorney? He said in The Ledger that Mercades and Hardcastle acted “similarly if not identically” and that’s why the court is treating them the same. How is that possible when Mercades did not touch Tori while Hardcastle hit Tori dozens of times if not 50 or more knowing Tori wasn’t even fighting back. That is crazy. A jury would never convict Mercades of the same charges as Hardcastle.

By the way if there is a trial jury selection will begin on March30, 2009. Isn’t it ironic?

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January 21, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Agree with your post as always. All of us agree that Brittany Mayes should not have been let off with such a light sentence. However, is this not what many of us perdicted with these girls anyway? She says she did not hit Victoria even though Victoria says she did. She is however charged with misdemeanor battery.

I agree with everyone that April’s age will be a factor in her sentencing. Sort of what a lot of people have been advocating for. Yet, at the same time are outraged that she will not get a harsher sentence. Not sure what the public thinks is acceptable for this one. This one is a wait and see sentence. Probably even more lenient than Brittany M.

Kayla will get off with the least amount of punishment. I believe she denies hitting Victoria as well. Of course combine that with her extreme fear of B.H. and their you go. This little one however does come off as quite the coward on the video. Sorry, they were compelled to tape it. This will haunt her for the rest of her life. Her choice.

The true problem with this case has been the inability on these girls to get their stories straight. There is a large portion of this tape missing or something. No one seems to dispute the 30 minute time frame. So either the whole thing wasn’t taped or hm….

So it is this ones word against this one. Or this group against this group. The ones that came together to beat Victoria caused a great deal of hardship for each other. That is truly the irony of the whole thing. So in this way Victoria will never be seen as the loser of this outcome.

Yes, we all agree the video will be out there forever. However, if you view the tape and see cowards that ganged up on one girl take it for what it is. This, as I have stated before, certainly should never be a source of embarassment for Victoria. So perhaps the haunting from this video will no be Victoria’s. Its all in the eye of the viewer.

The best call the judge made on this one was the stipulation that no profit can be made by this defendant. So should it be for all of the defendants. I think this will be a consistent with all of these girls no matter what the charges.

However, money should not be the issue in this case. Yet it seems to be a constant source of irritation and is brought up quite a bit. I truly believe no one is going to profit from this crime. This is as it should be.

Once again let me make this perfectlly clear I do not know Sheriff Judd. This is a legal question. Once the arrest is made the police are not in control of what the prosecutors, defense or lawyer’s judgements are. So why would Sheriff Judd say anyting at this point? The judge handed out this sentence. Why not let the judge explain? If we are outraged in the leniancy of the sentences why is this an embarassment to the police.

As for Victoria Lying or stating things that are not consistent with what is on the tape. Wow. Don’t even go there. Perhaps, if this tactic had not been used by so many of these girls all of them would have been afforded a fair punishment. These girls are telling untruths about each other. So the time for Victoria’s bashing is over. Worry more about what they say about each other.

Remember if Victoria is inconsistent with her statements due to say a concussion perhaps she got the facts about who did not hit her wrong? If we are going down that road her memory or lying could bring all sorts of things into question. How can she be sure, I mean absolutely that Cara and Mercades never hit her. This opens up a lot of doors.

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January 21, 2009

Scott

Amy I trust you noticed Christina saying Tori possibly lied in her testimony. Hmmm. I doubt it. But Tori may have been fuzzy about some things. As for the lying the 8 teens arrested in Tori’s assult did plenty of it even in sworn statements. And it can be proven.

For me it’s frustrating at this point in the case that we never hear a peep from the defendants. They are truly puppets for their slimey attorney’s.

And Amy you should watch the videos again. Can’t you se that Kayla is scared of Hardcastle? )

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January 21, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

Short and brief agree and agree. The wrong people are speaking on these girls behalf’s. However, pending a trail and further plea bargains they have the right to remain silent. They should do their taking in court.

Prove is what I have been trying to go by and have been accused many times of not following. So as for the possibility of Victoria lying I see no proof what so ever. So I will say it did not happen as I do not want to make assumptions.

Obviously the judge bought kayla’s fear excuse even after watching the tape. Maybe we should both look again 🙂

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January 21, 2009

Phil

To Scott and AmyV
Obviously you guys don’t know fear when you see it . i know the few times i have been truley afraid i too have yelled at some one to beat up a helpless friend .It helps not only to controll your fear but it enables the person you are afraid of to concetrate on the task at hand .I do not why you guys cannot see what is so obvious on the tape .because unless I am missing your point you don’t really believe that Kayla was afraid ,and i think these types of tounge and cheek sarcasim takes away of the true fear shown on the tape by kayla .So mayby we should all watch the tape again and this time stop concentrating on that other person doing all that crying and begging and start looking at the other victims that Bh terified . i mean really if you guys are going to continue commenting here some objectivity would be apreciated

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January 21, 2009

Scott

There is no need to watch the tape again Amy. Yes Kayla sold her bill of bull (goods) to the judge and it worked. But Kayla’s actions on the tape showed a passionate girls furious with Tori and she was letting Tori have it verbally with Hardcastle next to her offering protection for Kayla.

That’s a good assessment of fear Phil. ) But then the judge should have believed mercades was afraid of Hardcastle too.

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January 21, 2009

Phil

Scott
Here is my opinion on all of this .I cannot feel sorry for Mercades that she did not get a sweet deal like BM or one like AC may get . I am mad that the other 2 did not or will not get more .I would be very pissed if i was Christina or Mercades . it is another kick in the teeth after the high bail she has been given . I will not judge hers or BH sentecses based on what others got but on wether the sentences recieved are deserved for the actions of the defendents ..I have said all along about actions and guilt of Mercades . I was told that if i had all the information i would see differently . Well the SAO does have all the information .They have seen the whole video they have seen the texted messages , they have intervieed all the players and it seems they have also made thier statement in regards to Mercades actions and guilt . They seem to mirror what i have been saying . So to feel sorry that any of these girls may get something more than the light a light slap no way . To be mad that the others did not get more definatly

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January 22, 2009

Scott

You may be right Phil. But some things about this case will never add up for me. Such as someone hitting Tori alot and someone not hitting her at all and they face the same charges. Nonsense.

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January 22, 2009

Phil

Scott same charges does not equal same sentences .BH ,Bm and Mercades all faced the same charges going in..All of this drama for such lienenant sentences is mind boggling..
The state must have alot of evedence that points to Mercades as the planner but like all cases if the state is unreasonable the defendant can prove her innocennse at trial .
.Would it be fair if BH took a deal and then Mercades got more of a sentence by going to trial. When I see the word fair To me it depends on the view .For Mercades and Cristina this is totally unfair .I have said that I woulg have given BM more than Mercades .I thought after BH she was invoved in all aspects of this ,Assult ,filming,and the kiddnapping..April is 14 being encouraged and egged on by 17 year olds .Mercades .to me was third in my list of who should recieve the most punishment . As far as not hitting her when you tell some one in your own house to continue beating some one Scott you do not have to beat her yourself , Does that make you less guilty ..I think Victoria would have rather Kayla hit her a few more times then when Mercades told BH to continue which after BH reciieves permission from the one who lived there told Victoria now she was going to try to break her nose .So Scott with all due respect , The Battery charges are just and supported by the evidence .What is not fair ,Mostly to Victoria and then to Mercades is the light sentence give to BM

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January 22, 2009

christina garcia

Scott, you are right it is crazy, but what can you do? We are in a very corrupt world in Polk County, and this should prove it. Mercades is ready to give up, but I am talking to her.

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January 22, 2009

Garland

Pardon me for asking this, but does anyone have the link to the full 30-minute or so video? I remember that I saw about 5 minutes of it back on TV. Thanks!

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January 22, 2009

Phil

Garland
as far as I know only 2 parts have ever been released .

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January 22, 2009

gompertz

Today is my tai chi lesson so only have time for one comment.

The corruption of Polk County is not unique. Everywhere it holds true that the one receiving the easiest sentence is not the least guilty but the one who cooperates most fully with the prosecution. Since most of us came to the conclusion (based on Victoria’s testimony) that Mayes and her young friend Cooper were the real instigators, the terms seem to be very lenient for them. Could they have cut a deal early on and given testimony against others in return for leniency?
I think Cara holds a key here. In Newman’s April 2 report, it clearly states that, according to Victoria, Cara hit her while holding a camcorder. Victoria seems to have retracted that statement later. Maybe she was in such a state of panic amounting to delirium she couldn’t distinguish reality from fantasy, and that would be understandable. But what if her original statement was true about Cara? What if she later retracted it because she honestly couldn’t tell if the memory was real or not, and something or someone led her to believe she may have been mistaken? And saying Cara didn’t hit her made it easier to drop the charges against Cara. THe mystery of why the charges were dropped against Cara could be explained if we assume Mayes and Cooper had already cut a deal. We were told that Cara was released so she could testify against the others at the trial. What if the real reason for her release was because she was close to Cooper and would have been privy to conversations with Cooper that would have implicated Cooper and Mayes in the attack on Victoria. I wonder if there is still time to have Cara deposed to find out what evidence she might have on the plans of Mayes and Cooper. That is, if we are interested in seeing justice done for the one who did not hit Victoria.

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January 22, 2009

Scott

You’re right Phil that the state must have alot of evidence against Mercades. But I wonder about the credibility of that evidence with all the talk of a corrupt sheriff’s office by Christina Garcia. Where there is smoke there is fire. The state of Florida may need to look closely at what is going on in Polk County.

As for Victoria I can only hope she’s moved on and is happy and is looking forward to the future. I bet she can’t wait for this case to end so she can move on.
Gomp, you could be right about Cara holding the key to the charges agains the other teens and the behind the scense information about what went on and what was planned for Tori. Cara was staying with April and her family at the time of the assault and I am pretty sure April let Cara in on any plan’s for confronting Tori.

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January 22, 2009

Scott

Garland, none of us knows what happened to the rest of the video of Tori’s assault and imprisonment. Kayla’s mother’s video camera held alot more than 5 minutes of video on it. Remember when Brittany Mayes said 17 seconds left make it good? Well the tape must have run for 20 minutes or so in order for it to run out of time. There was alot more than just 5 minutes filmed. Maybe Christina Garcia knows what really happened to the rest of the video.

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January 22, 2009

christina garcia

Thats just it, there is no more video. Ask yourselves this, the first video was really violent no? Judd held back nothing when he released that video, keep in mind I have the discovery pack everything that they are to use for evidence. For those who chose not to believe me thats fine, but there are only 2 videos, really one but PCSO chopped it up and made it into 2. BTW I ran into someone in the courthouse today, and check this out. It is the father of one of Tori’s friends, Tori told them, I only wanted them to maybe have an injuction or something, but they did not hurt me this bad, she says she would have never called if she knew it was going to be blown out this big.

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January 22, 2009

Phil

Scott you may be right
i live in Canada so i have no idea about corruption in Polk County.The problem i am having with this is corrution allegatins are being issued and i don’t no what it means ,was somebody bribed . does the police own the courts is This Judd guy telling SAO what to do .Does SAO have another reason to ruin a seventeen year olds life that has nothing to do with evidence .Lets look at Judd.If he controlled SOA then all 6 girls and 2 boys would still be up on charges with no plea deals all looking at about 5 + years in jail .He made it very clear that he thought these defendants were animals and should be put away .It looks to me that SOA has done everything it can to put as much distance between themselves and Judd..Did the early statments from Judd hurt the chance to proscecute these girls probally .Now if
SAO is corrupt which way ,.if they wanted blood they have a funny way of showing it .So why BM over Mercades as far sentencing toughness goes .Is it pay back against Christina for the lawsuit and the constant attacks against Maybury justice .possible .but until we see the actual plea deal its hard to say ,Or if Christina was offered ,a reduced sentence for Mercdes in exchange for dropping her lawsuit ,then definatly…Or is it more likly that the SAO after looking at the case is saying that BH has to pay and the one who set it up has to pay as well .I do not think there will be alot of jail time to anyone of these defendants so it will probally be about the terms of sentencing and restitution. .TThe SAO was very clear on its resons why Mercades is is not getting the same deal. Her actions have put her thier according to States Attornies.To say corruption without giving what act of corruption from which individual insults people who are dedicated to work for the common good .i just wish they had all done thier job better with the serving the common good part .

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January 22, 2009

christina garcia

The judges here own the jail, and they want blood because Mercades’ mom won’t just sit back and shut up letting Judd lie lie lie. While all the other parents were quiet. Bh well that is just obvious they had to do something with her. It amazes me how the others got out of it though, especially thinking about the one who HIT Tori and got away with it, acually 2 that got off

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January 22, 2009

Phil

If The defendents knew it was going to blowout this big then they would have never started the assult in the first place either .It was thier actions that landed them in this mess . It was horrible and viscious and sicking what they did .This was out of Victoria’s hands as soon as she rightfully called the police ..These defendants are so fortunate that Victoria and her family are not out for blood .

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January 22, 2009

Phil

SAO put together plea deals Christina not Judges

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January 22, 2009

AmyV

Phil and Scott –

I believe the charges that were filed from the very beginning lead up to what we see going on now. I never agreed the assault should have been a misdemeanor. However, this charge was. Kidnapping was the felony and we all have different opinions on that one. On the tape definite proof of false imprisonment. This would have been everyone in the house except for Victoria.

So even though Brittini H. and April C. did the most severe beating it was charged as a misdemeanor and that carries a light sentence.
So saying Brittini H. deserves a harsher punishment because of her part in the beating would not be much harsher because its not a felony.

Would false imprisonment have been a felony? I assume it would. So truly the major charge was against the three in the car (or should have been). Mercades drove and B.H., B.M were in the car as well. I have always believed that it would not make sense what so ever that Victoria would have gratefullly accepted a ride from these three.

So if we are to assume that Victoria truly does not believe her concussion, partial loss of vision in one eye, temporary loss of hearing in one ear, bloodly lip with cracked tooth or teeth, mutiple bruises and fear or dying did not hurt her that bad the sentences were correct for certain girls. Why If Victoria herself does not want harsh punishment should B.H. get more than the rest?

So we are left with the kidnapping charge. This is where the problem lies. Whos story is true. I will go with Victoria. This is the felony charge and carries the harshest sentences. B.M. (not sure what her sentence will be) should be charged with this. However, here is where being a bad friend gets in the way. She either lied about who planned the attack or she was a bad friend to Mercades and Brittini. As we have heard this is not a crime. She pointed the finger at both of them.

All the finger pointing amongst the girls lead to much to lenient charges against some. Perhaps to harsh against others. Since we don’t know what the charges will be the verdict is still out on that one. This may some sort of answer as to why B.H. and Mercades are being charged the same. Do we all agree no.

Now we have been offered two explainations as to why no 30 minute tape. Corruption with cut and past from Christina. Victoria stated the whole thing was taped and perhaps some of it was erased. Also, stated she doesn’t know what happened to the rest of it. hmm… Don’t know. Suspicious on someones part which ever way it goes.

Let us alway remember that either Victoria’s memory was fuzzy or she lied. So who hit and who didn’t. Once again all of these contradictions just added up to one big mess. A decision was made on who to believe. Did the trust the right ones. I don’t know in this group.

I hope that other teenagers will take away from thise tape not to participate in a crime like this period. Do not let it happen at your house. Do not change up on one girl. Do not give her a ride when she says not. I don’t think they will come to the conclussion that they might as well have hit the girl. Since that was the misdemeanor charge.

Reply
January 22, 2009

Scott

Christina, interesting news about the father of one of Tori’s friends. There have been reports that Tori does not want these girls to do hard time. But we must all remember that Tori did not call the police to get the girls in trouble. Whether that was because she was afraid of a worse beating the next time or because she didn’t want them to do hard time I don’t know. Tori called 911 for medical attention and she sure needed it and a trip to the hospital. She was hurt and needed medical help everyone knows that. Whether Tori is downplaying how badly she was hurt is something I doubt because she had numerous injuries including vision loss and she’s had many trips to the doctors for checkups and x-rays.

Amy, we don’t know what Tori really wants for these girls as far as their charges go and that’s the problem. But the law is the law and that should mean the most even more than what Tori wants. And Tori was seriously injured in the assault. You name her injuries Amy and those injuries were and are serious.

Reply
January 22, 2009

AmyV

Phil-

I agree with you. It would be SAO that would put together plea deals. Also, if they were out for blood this so far has not been what happened. So where is all the corruption coming from. At this point the sheriff is out of the picture as far as charges and plea deals go.

Really not sure where all of this is going. I have stated before that if the ENTIRE JUSTICE SYSTEM in Polk county is corrupt how would you have a chance at sueing one of them civially? You are not going to win with this deep corruption spreading through out this town. That would not seem at all possible if they are all that powerful.

Either there is a dispute about the time frame of 30 minutes or what is up with the tape? I have never heard any denials on the part of anyone as to the time frame. Am I wrong on this one? O.K. then 20 something minutes were not taped. What further actions were taken during that 30 minutes. Left up to speculation again if this is all the tape they have. Even more harmful for these girls.

Reply
January 22, 2009

Phil

Amy
real interesting piece of logic makes alot of sense .regardless of there reasoning ,BM should have gotten more .I think that because of all the text and that it happened at Mercades place they want more from Mercades then they do from BM. .Gomp once stated to me awhile back that when i pointed out that extra legal responsibilities especially forcible confinement belongs to Mercades because it took place at her house and she did nothing to stop it , that he hoped this was not what would end up sinking her ..I think the public and Mercades deserve a better explanation on why the state feels that Mercades is on the same level as BH .I have been harder on Mercades than perhaps anyone and to put her in the class as BH makes no sense to me . I would like to hear thier reasoning with specfic exaamples of evidence .

Reply
January 22, 2009

AmyV

Phil

Good luck on getting that explaination or any examples of specific evidence. We do not know what the state has. Every knows that the state does not disclose all of their evidence in criminal cases. Even some of the most high profile. This is just not the way the system works.

Long after this is over you will still have questions. They are so many lies being told it will be almost impossible to ever sort this one out.
So all we are left with are assumptions and the evidence we clearly saw on the tape.

As far as the public goes how much interest is left out there? I a not really sure about that either. Look how many this blog shrunk down to. So I don’t expect to see any breaking news stories on this one. The public has short attention spans as do the media. The spotlight is on the Casey Anthony case big time. You never hear this mentioned on the news anymore. Sad but true.

I don’t even know if any big news stories will be done on Christina’s suit either. As has been mentioned several times this is a very small town. I assume it still makes some sort of headlines there however even on The Ledger it is not mentioned much.

Scott – No unless Victoria herself states what she might have wanted for these girls we do not have a clue. I have seen nothing stated directly by her that she wishes leniency. Of course we know it is nonsense that she stated she wasn’t hurt that bad.

You are absolutely right in the end Victoria does not have much of a say one way or another. Did she not call 911 for police assistance as well? I am not sure. However, if you listen to the recording of her call you can hear her say I want them to see what they have done to me. Was she speaking of the police? I don’t know. The injuries were serious. The statement from her mouth and her fathers was ” I was scared I was going to die”. Doesn’t sound like “No big deal those 100 punches didn’t hurt anyway.

No way you can even begin to swallow that statement. It is beyond some of the most ridiculous things I have read so far. This girl endured a lot of pain. period. Truly unbelieveable.

Reply
January 22, 2009

Scott

Amy, I just figured Tori called 911 for medical help. But Christina has reported that Tori wrote “ha ha all in jail” on her myspace page after the 8 teens were arrested. If that’s true it shows how competetive the girls were with each other. And that sort of explains the back and forth bitching they did with each other.

Reply
January 22, 2009

Scott

And Amy no matter what Tori says about not wanting to get the girls in trouble there is no way around those 100 punches not hurting her badly and the fact that her own father didn’t even recognize her after the beating. Tori was put through emotional and physical trauma and there will be light sentences handed out to those who did it to her. Except perhaps for mercades who might be targeted by the sheriff’s office.

Reply
January 22, 2009

AmyV

Scott –

I have stated from the beginning I do not believe in this whole conspiracy theory. However, this is just my opinion. Definitely in hindsight things could have been handled differently but who knows.

Lets go with everyones corruption theory. The Sheriff in this town, lawyers, judges are all out for blood against one girl in particular Mercades. O.K. This leaves a mother in fear of this man for her life. Her daughter is terrified and being targeted with lewd behavior by a police officer.

Mercades, if correct could be harshley punished for this. This does not look good because their is really no one to turn to because they are all horrible and corrupt. However, the sheriff runs the entire show.

If this is true. Save your daughter drop the lawsuit. Proving how tough you are at the expensive of your daughter’s future is not your first priority. Getting ‘every cent’ for what the sheriff has put you through is not a mothers first priority. Drop the charges take a lighter plea deal, if this is true and get the h*** out of this town with BOTH of your daughter in tow.

This is what I would do in this scenario. My daughters well being would well out weigh any justice I wanted from some redneck sherriff. Once again don’t care about this man don’t know him. IF its that evil their well hm… what would a mother due to get away from it.

Just don’t buy it Scott. Sorry to disagree with you. Where their is cash their is greed.

Signing off of this post. No proof of Victoria’s statement about “ha,ha either. Oh wait that’s right the police erased the evidence 🙂 Don’t believe a word any of these girls say. Don’t believe a word any of their parents say. Sick of hearing about the injustices done to them. The in justice was done to VICTORIA alone. Got to love the judge for no profit though. Seem to be the most upsetting fact of all. Oh well no money out there.

Good bye.

Reply
January 23, 2009

Scott

Amy, I am with you on Christina dropping the lawsuit against sheriff Judd. I think her lawsuit is embarrassing for law enforcement in Polk County and that is coming back to haunt Christina and Mercades in a big way.

And it’s true the injustice on March 30, 2008 was done to Victoria Lindsay and the in juctices continued since then my the defendants families and lawyers.

Reply
January 23, 2009

Phil

Coruption theorys abound .Can some one please tell me what has been corrupted ,. Was an innocent person charged and convicted ? .Was somebody paid off to plant eveidence ? Is the SOA flexing thier mussels and throwing the book at someone for something they did not do ..Are they making up evidence to ruin the lives of the defendants .For those of you who have made this claim . There is that litte thing called the Vidoe tape evidense .Look at the reported deals these people are expecting .Every other juvinlie Felon in the state of flordia has probally phoned thier Lawyer wondering why they could not get tried in Polk County ,They should be so upset at thier lawyers for not knowing where the corrupt police , corrupt procecuting attornies and corrupt judges hang out…If I was a youth facing felony charges .I wold really want this bunch of corrupted individuals Trying me . Myself i was looking for an HONEST attempt at proscecuting these people for the charges brought against them .But those corrupted individuals have really thorwn a monkey wrench itnto that whole victim deserves justice theory.

Reply
January 23, 2009

Phil

AmyV great post .
.I have not heard a word from Sheriff judd in about six months .There have been people (Gomp and Scott )who wandered where he went if he cared so much about tackleing teen bullying or was it just one big phot op .Now its lt is look at the corruption of Polk County ..Corruption is such an ugly word .A sherrif trying to make a name for himself at the expense of the defendents is not corrupt .Showboating yes corrupt know ..Realeasing the video and putting this trial in adult court instead of Juvinile court some would see this as excessive , this is not corrupt .It seems to me The SOA and Judge Sarto seem to believe this should have been handled in the Juvinile system and not adult court . Even if there are some felony convictions that may get attached it is all being done with in a juvinlie punishment system .
These punishments seem to be in line with what
Greta Van Susteren and others who have said this is a juvi matter have called for .

Electronica . You have called this truer then the rest of us as to what they would recieve .
The only saving grace for me is it looks like the state does have the evidence for a pre planned event . That being said The state of flordia seems to agree with your assement of the case in general . Well done

Reply
January 23, 2009

christina garcia

and I offered to drop the suit if they’d stop the extra sh&ampt with Mercades, but they’re not stupid hon, they know the media would gobble that up, proving that it was for revenge. I mean everyone knows this

Reply
January 23, 2009

Scott

Phil, Judd must be embarrassed after such tough talk at the beginning of this case to be on the outside looking in and realizing the teesn will all get light sentences.

Christina, I think the sheriff’s office better do some internal cleaning and fast. What if the state of Florida decides to investigate Judd’s office? As far as you dropping the auit atleast you did offer to do so.

Reply
January 23, 2009

Amyv

Scott-

Don’t really think the sheriffs office would be embarrassed of these lenient charges. I was animalistic behavior. It was on tape. They wanted harsh punishments.

These sentences would be a disappointment to the sheriffs office I am sure. However, as stated before they do not have the final say on charges, plea deals, etc. So they tried to get justice for the victim. This did not happen. Is this what you mean by embarrassed?

This really doesn’t play well with how corrupt all of these people as a group are. hmm…

Phil – Hope you can post now. I will check later.
Excellent post on just what all the corruption was a about. Did you get a good answer to that one. Truly a shame that they did not take Christina up on her offer to drop the civil suit. Then all of the beating, kidnapping, tampering with a witness would have been forgoten. Everyone knows that. The media would have had a field day.

I truly do believe the state of Florida should do an investigation in to the sheriff’s office. The judges in Mulberry, The corrupt lawyers, um did I leave anyone out. Oh yes I think the postman was in on it to 🙂 Call out the national guard this place is so horrible for teenagers. I agree if I were a teenager who wanted to commit such a horrendous crime I would drag everyone down to Mulberry to do it. They are ROUGH on these girls.

Then you can sue for the crime being commited. Two for one deal. Get your anger off your chest and grab ever cent you can. This says it all. Justice or Greed. I don’t know Phil hon, what do you think?

Reply
January 24, 2009

Scott

Yes Amy that’s what I meant by Judd being embarrassed. He talked so tough and we heard about possible sentences of life in prison and now the teens will end up with slaps on wrists even though millions of people in America and tens of millions of people around the world have seen Tori’s assault and emotional torture. Most people will be shocked the girls got off easy after threats of long stints in the slammer.

Reply
January 24, 2009

Phil

test

Reply
January 24, 2009

Phil

From Phil

Just to toot my own horn here When we started seriously talking about ringleaders in early December I put forward a theory that i took some flack for ,Normal when we put our opinions in wrighting .I said this on Dec 4th and not to many people if any agreed with me

I find the question on who we think the ringleader or ringleaders were interesting .Every one has an opinion .the reason i find this interesting is , First you have to believe that alot of the events were pre determined . if you believe the defendants statements that nothing was planned then there was no ringleaders and what was done is on tape . here are my views on both scenarios . I think the ringleaders were Brit M and Mercades .

Lots more was said but that was the jist of the post

It seems all the discusions are now centered on this theory .On topix they are now saying things like
Group A verus Group B , which one was more responsible Mercades with the texting or BM with her prior threat against Victoria . I also do feel a liitle bit Vindicated as well with SAO stance about Mercades responsibility .
..Did Mercades Lawyer miscalulate by not spreading the blame to both BH and BH thus taaking it furter away from mercades
. Changing attornies part way through could not of helped . I also think that if you did not activly pursue a deal you got stuck with whatever was left. ..
The only rebuttals have been corruptin against Mercades ,nobody else .is being treated unfairly or unjustly targeted just this one person is undesreved of the offered plea deal.

Judd is probally not embarrsed but disgusted .He handed the proscecutin a case that AmyV and or I could have won
(Okay that’s a bit much I know). But remember that Judd has to work with these people every day ,on cases with much more at stake then just this case . When he talked you critized him when he didn’t you critiized him . Now if i am hearing you guys right he is responsible for the lenient plea deals being offered .or is it the overly harsh plea deal being offered Mercades .See i am confued again .Mayby Amyv is correct and the postman was corrupt to .

Reply
January 24, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Glad you could get back on. I am glad Trench fixed the glitches on the thread. Thank you. Now we know it wasn’t Sheriff Judd himself. You have been awful hard on him 🙂

I know this will come as a surprise however I can not agree with you more. I myself stated I do not really know what people are wanting her. Talk don’ talk. Like you said either way corruption is hurled. He did think this warranted criminal charges. However, so far not seeing a lot of harshness flying in the way of punishment. So, now he should be embarrassed? I am just missing something here.

My personal experiences with police has been somewhat limited except for the case I do not talk about. Well mentioned it once. The sheriff told me, this I will never forget, if we had our way this guy would go to jail for life. He told me and my family that they repeatedly arrest violent offenders that serve little time in jail and they see them back on the streets in a couple of months. He also said this is very frustrating for police officer because it is really out of their hands. No it was NOT Sheriff Judd.

So now the judge is corrupt. I think when he was granting these girls every request we saw how hard he was. Can you say bought the innocent little girl act? So this defense does not make one bit of sense and has no back up what so ever.

Hi Scott – I agree with you about a lot of people begin shocked at the leniency. This pretty much disproves the corruption theory to me. If Judd was that powerful would things not have been a lot worse on these girls?
I commend him for his efforts. In trying to get justice for Victoria. I never heard it mentioned that the sherriffs office wanted life in prison. Everyone knows that is silly. The statements have been that the kidnapping charge could hold up to life in prison. Not that that was what they were going for. We have all I think have pretty much agreed on that from day one.

Scott, the one thing I think we will never agree on is that I do believe this should be considerd kidnapping. Transporting a person from one place to another, no matter where it is at, is doing so against their will. I really need to look up the exact definition for kidnapping but I think this fits the bill.

Reply
January 24, 2009

gompertz

Hello, everyone! The snow is all melted and I’m so unhappy. LOL

Interesting that some people had problems logging on but I didn’t but now I see my computer won’t let me get access to any articles on the Ledger about this case, including ones from months ago which I used to get easily. Something about URL error.
As far as the deal for Ms Mayes, (fortunately Scott posted the Jason Geary article here Jan. 20. Thank you Scott) the judge has some discretion. Most think that Mayes will get much less than what the law allows, but what if Spoto uses his discretion to give her the full year and applies adult rather than juvenile sanctions? I don’t know, but it sounds to me like a year in adult prison could be a life-altering experience (as well it should be) and not at all pleasant. I think the judge is certainly justified in sentencing Ms Mayes to the full year under adult sanctions, especially in light of (1) Victoria’s statement that Mayes hit her though Mayes denies it and (2) Patrucco’s statement that Mayes “promoted, encouraged and assisted” the beating. It does seem the court is placing far more weight on the denial of Mayes and her lawyer than on the word of the victim and the prosecutor. As I said a year in adult prison wouldn’t be a picnic, but I wonder how many people think it is commensurate with the severity of the crime and her level of participation. Anyway in dropping the felony charges (which would have followed her everywhere) the court did her a favor.

Now we have heard a lot of talk about corruption. First, the idea of postmen being corrupt is not so strange, and since I spent many years woikin in da powd owfice myseff, I can tell you about the extreme criminality of some postal workers and even more so for management that makes millions in kickbacks to private corporations with whom they have connections. Oh wait, that doesn’t happen anymore, that was only during the Nixon administration when execs from private industry became postal managers and made deals with their former colleagues for hundreds of millions of dollars in useless equipment…and that was long ago so I can mention it. But today there is no corruption at all in the postal service or at least none that I can speak of. )

As for Polk County I’m sure there is corruption there like everywhere else. However I think that it is possible for one person to take the fall for the misdeeds of a whole group and it is a routine result of the working of the system without invoking any special vendetta against an individual, but just the fact of Group A being quicker to cooperate with prosecutors than Group B. It’s like if there is a sale in a department store and you rudely and selfishly jostle and elbow your way to the goodies (no, I don’t mean YOU, just in general) and everyone else has to settle for less, that makes you an inconsiderate lout, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you are evil or particularly corrupt. The same way, those who make the most advantageous deals with the prosecution may be acting in a way that could be called barbaric, but in that lifeboat situation it’s everyone for themselves. And prosecutors are grateful to offer deals to whoever gets there first with their narrative because the burden of proof is so heavy even with all the video evidence that you are never sure what will convince a jury of randomly chosen individuals whose decisions are often unpredictable. So there are many inequitable results that emerge from the court system and I think the blame lies with the ACLU mentality which protects criminals and implicates victims and if we are to look for the roots of inequities in results of court decisions the fault is with the far-left ideology which controls our courts and our schools. And the kind of unfairness that we see taking shape in this case would exist even if the Sheriff and his cronies were all saints.

AS for the guilt of the various participants, I still think the evidence points to BM and AC because their grievance with Victoria makes the most sense. The bonfire incident led to the kind of friction that would most naturally lead to direct confrontation. Mercades problems with Victoria were not, as far as we know, the kind that lead to violence. Whatever Mercades text messages may show, what about the text messages from Mayes to Victoria with the overt threats (alleged)? Were they considered at all by the court? What did Patrucco mean exactly by saying she “promoted, encouraged and assisted” the beating? With so many unanswered questions, I am not going to come to any conclusions. While the proceedins have reached a new phase, I still don’t see any resolution and no closure anytime soon and I think that everyone can at least agree on that.

Reply
January 24, 2009

myriskalen

plea bargains diminish justice which should have been served rightfully for the victim.

Reply
January 24, 2009

Scott

Amy, I don’t blame Judd. He was trying to get justice for Tori and he wanted the teen fight video market to be exposed nationwide. I think that worked. But it’s not Judd’s fault the girls will get off with slaps on their wrists. It looks like that will happen although we don’t know what Hardcastle and Nichols will get and they could get more than just a slap on the wrist. But Mercades should not be lumped in with Brittini. They should b facing differnet charges.

Amy, it has never been determined that the girls made Tori go to CVS or whether she asked them to drive her there to meet her friend. And if Tori did ask to be driven to CVS or where Mary Nichols was working then that’s not kidnapping. But the girls are guilty of false imrpisonment and assault and battery. Well except those that didn’t hit Tori which was Cara and Mercades.

Your welcome Gomp. Yes a year in the joint would be a life changing experience for Ms. Mayes. But that won’t happen. The judge the other day told her to keep her nose clean until her next court date. I take that to mean Brittany will get very little time in jail if she doesn’t get in any more trouble.

Phil, you can’t have a ringleader scenario without Hardcastle. She expressed anger with Tori over the phone the day of the assault and Mercades warned Tori that Brittini would beat her ass and she wouldn’t stop it if Tori brought and attitude home. Hardcastle was in on it from the start. And Brittini took control of the assault and battery of Tori and really pummeled Tori. That was no accident. It unfolded the way they had hoped it would. Brittini was the boss and she acted like it peppering a helpless Tori with an unbelievable amount of punches and questions. Hardcastle must share ringlesder duties if not be the #1 ringleader.

Reply
January 24, 2009

gompertz

Scott, remember that Victoria originally stated that Cara did hit her although she later claimed otherwise. For me that is something that has never been resolved. As for Ms Mayes, I think we should take up a collection to buy her some packages of tissue so she can keep her nose clean, because otherwise the judge might get really tough. You wouldn’t want anyone showing disrespect for the dignity of the court by appearing before the honorable judge with a dirty nose. I mean, participating in a brutal beating we can overlook, but personal hygiene must not be neglected.

As for the sheriff, whatever his motivation might have been in releasing the video, it did no good to the victim and it helped increase his popularity. Much easier to focus on high-profile cases than the everyday quality of life issues like noise and speeding cars. But I sure don’t blame him for the fiasco of the plea deals and I don’t know how much SAO is to blame. Surely if Spoto gives a sentence that is anything less than the maximum (inadequate though it is) he is not worthy to remain on the bench. But there are so many like him and if Obama lives up to his ultra-left reputation things will only get worse in the court system.

Reply
January 24, 2009

Phil

Gomp
i am glad the snow melted .it is minus 27.7 degrees farinheigt with the wind chill today. I accept your version about the one or two persons taking the fall because BH was going to get the worst thats for sure no problem no argument from anyone . punishing Mercades more then BM is an easy sell for the public because of of the public opinion of Mercades has not been good since the beginning . Proscecutors like any one else will take the easiest route given to them .I will say though .They still must have evidence for these charges they just can’t say you are just as bad because .Here is how we know if there is the proof ,If Mercades takes a plea deal that may have a felony attachment then they must have proof of her guilt .If not her lawyer woulld not or could not take the deal.
Scott
You are right we must certainly never forget about Britnney Hardcastles .What ever the plan and whoever texted who or whoever threatned who .it became her show .Such brutality can should never be forgotton and you are so correct to make sure we keep that fact squarley in front of us at all times.But Scott we can still have the discussion on why BH was so upset at Victoria .Who was winding BH up .She had no real reason to take it out on victoria .The enforser is very rarley the one to put things in motion

Reply
January 24, 2009

Scott

That’s true myriskalen. I don’t think the victim will get justice in this case. I bet Victoria Lindsay just wants this case to go away so she can move on. Tori was victimized during the asault and she’s been vitimized again in the 10 months since the assault. It’s ridiculous that this case is still open when it was caught on video. Gomp, I expect things to get worse in courts accross America in the next few years. The court room could grow to be a safe haven for drug dealers and pedophiles. How sad is that? And judge Spoto will not give Brittany Mayes or any of the 5 remaining teen’s facing charges the maximun sentences. No way.

Phil, I think Hardcastle was upset with Tori because they grew apart and Tori had a few boyfriends and alot of guy greinds in general. Tori was also popular, smart and attractive during high school and I think that’s why some girls didn’t like her. And Brittini also wanted to put on a show for the video camera during the assault which is why she was torturing Tori physically with more than 50 unasnswered punches and verbal abuse instead of just knocking Tori out or throwing her around. Yes the girls were putting on a show for the camera. I’m sure their anger at Tori was blown up so they could star in their own assault video. Bad move.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Gomp-

Did not mean bring up bad memories of the post office scandals 🙂 Just being a little sarcastic. Wow, I really think I should just stay shut up in my house. On run around like Mel Gibson in what was the name of that movie? Sorry. Gomp

We all know there is wide spread corruption and greed going on in our country. It starts at the top and just keep trickling. So any profession or business you can name probably has some incidence of this to be cited.

O.K. I said before I did not want to get into politicis but here it goes. One time only I think. Will our court system become more corrupt and easier pedophiles and drug dealers? So far they have not being doing to good of a job keeping pedophiles in jail and away from our children. Pedophiles are not able to be rehabilitated. They are not kept in prison for life as they should be. Many have several repeats offenses before they do enough damage to gain noterity and the the courts imposes the sentences that should have been imposed from the beginning. This has been going on for years.

I believe many on this post have stated that drug dealers or drug users are the ones who are sentenced the most harshly. Sometimes with a sentence that far exceeds extremely violent criminal offenders. So don’t really have a response to that one.

While on the subject of Obama and the things that will go down hill from here I will expand a little farther. I predict our economy will reach a level that has not been seen since the great depression. No, wait that has already happened. hmm. I predict the loss of jobs and unemployment will reach an all time high that of which I has not been seen in my generation. Wait, that has already happened as well. I predict many will lose their houses and foreclosures can be seen around every corner. O.K. here is where I stop because all of my predictions have already come true and he hasn’t even been in office for a week. I for one will deeply miss the Bush administration and the prosperty and peace it has brought to our country. Despite him going out as the president with the worst approval rating in history.

I truly do not want this to turn into a political debate. Just thought I would add a few issues than maybe we can find a blog that is more suitable for these discussions. Respect both of you Gomp. and Scott.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Phil

Scott
Very true as we have all said enough blame to go around what really strikes me with our exchanges between you Gomp ‘AmyV and myself is that we can each pick our theory and have the evidence to support it .This just shows the mistake made by not giving them all somethin more than a punitive slap on the wrist,instead of working out sweet pleas.
Scott You keep on saying that Mercades should not be facing the same chaarges as BH. All three girls BM BH and Mecades were always faceing the same charges . They should not be facing the same punishments . What charge that Mercades is facing that BH is facing should not apply to Mercades . Again i am not talking about sentecing just about the charges ..Also Scott not to pick on you but you have said to Amy
that you do not blame Judd ‘but to Christina you said
I think the sheriff&rsquos office better do some internal cleaning and fast. What if the state of Florida decides to investigate Judd&rsquos office?
can you please clarify both my questions .

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Scott – I agree with your comment on the judge not imposing maximum sentences for any of these girls. I feel they will all get less then is deserved in this case. No matter what their level of participation. So being upset for Mercades when no punishment has been handed down yet is a little premature.

I am not sure if you mean to say B.H. felt like her and Victorias friendships was growing apart. Did you mean Mercades? Mercades was the one who Victoria stated was angry with her because of the ex. boyfriend issues. Victoria stated they were having troubles. I don’t really think that B.H. and Victoria were what you would consider friends before this attack.

If you really look at each of these girls as related to Victoria Mercades was the only one she would have considered her friend. I go back to the tape when B.H. said, “I heard you didn’t like me”,
Victoria’s response “Mercades said you didn’t like me so I said well I don’t like her either.” B.H. “I don’t like you”. So I know this is only an assumption but logic would lead you to believe that Victoria and B.H. were not friends before this encounter.

I do think we can all argue who was or were the ring leaders in this case. B.M. and A.C. vs. B.H. and Mercades. I have brought up the fact that maybe there was no true ring leader. B.H. and M.N. were together and we can all agree the house was provided by Mercades. B.M. and A.C. were after Victoria prior to this beating. So, I feel they share equal responsibility.

As stated it is not on the tape so it is not easy to prove. The house that was provided for the victim is where Mercades has a far more difficult time, in court anyway, convincing people she was not in on this attack.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Good morning. I hope your weather gets better soon. I hope you were able to keep semi-warm last night.

I agree with you. You surely can take lead chair after that comment. The charges are valid against all of these girls. So the charges are not the problem. It is the punishments that are disappointing. Although, as I stated before, we do not know what will come down in the end. This is a far cry from life imprisonment or 20 years in jail or any of that other no sense.

Phil, meant to comment on this earlier. We do not know what evidence the SAO has on Mercades and Brittini Hardcastle to see them as cohorts. I believe as the prove would be what was on the text messaging prior to the event. No access to that so I would assume it must be incriminating.

The bonfire incident is a good arguement for including B.M. and A.C. in on this attack big time. Yet, what would be even more damaging evidence than that happened directly before the brutal beating occured. Those were the text messages and phone calls being trade back and forth. If those were released perhaps a lot of this could be cleared up for us anyway.

Where did all the people from this blog go that never believed this was a planned attack anway 🙂

Scott – You and I have always agreed with believe the victims statements above anyone elses. So to believe that Victoria asked for or accepted the ride freely would be to state that she is lying in her affidavit. She does say they forced her. So I will stay consistent with I will believe Victoria’s statements above all others.

Why on this statement do you seem to doubt her? Hope you are enjoying the few days of nice weather we have. I hope they last.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

Thank you for you clarifications on what you think of Sheriff Judd. I do respect your opionions and you have made this one as usual clear. Once again you have managed to say in a few sentences what some of us take paragraphs to say.

He did try to expose this trend towards increasing teenage violence. Whether if was a mistake because of the additonal pain caused to Victoria is debateable. All of us wish this was not the case. However, I believe over all it did serve a purpose in educating adults as to how far this trend has come.

I myself was not aware of how many videos are being posted on the internet. This woke me up and is something I want laws changed to protect the innocent. Someone (excuse me for being to lazy to scroll up again ) recommended flagging any teenage violence you see on the internet. I attemped to do this months ago. When I tried this site wanted you to sign up for something else in order to be able to do this. Yes, it was the infamous you tube. I myself will try again and if have to pay so be it. This is a small dent however if everyone would join together a larger dent can be made. Actually I did peak in on the Topix so the suggestion may have been made their. Whoever made this suggestion public thank you.

Their are so many problems with this case. The latest seems to be the comparision of M.N. to B.H. Comparing her to B.H. role is just one problem. The larger issue is each and everyone of these girls so far has not been given anywhere near an appropriate punishment for this crime. So if this continues and I have no reason to believe it will not this is where the injustice lyes.

I may be wrong but my guess is neither Mercades nor Brittini H. will get the appropriate sentence either. So being angry that Mercades is being tryed the same as B.H. is sort of irrelevant. This is a case were two wrongs don’t make a right. Brittini H. punishment will be to lenient. Mercades will I assume follow suit.

The focus needs to be on the over all picture of Victoria has been so far denied the justice she so sorely deserved. The charges were appropriate no matter who thought up this scheme. As Phil stated it is the punishments that do not fit the crime.

I have always believed the victims statements about the boys being involved was true. However, since evidence was insufficient their charges were dropped. I never thought it a fair punishment for Cara Murphy to have her charges dropped. No matter what evidence she could provide probation should have at least been mandatory.

I will hold my thoughts on the other girls until one by one we see the definite punishments in writing.

Have a nice day Scott. Enjoy the sunshine. Sorry Phil I will duck your snowballs 🙂 Glad to see your weather has improved Gomp.

Gomp –

Hats off to you. Your statements of a dirty nose are beyond funny. I am worried about sarcastic whit from this blog rubbing off on you though. In all seriousness though great point. Keeping your nose clean does sound like it will lead to leniancy. Hopefully this is just jumping to conclusions.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Phil

My opinion on the kidnapping charges is that it happened as victoria has stated 100% .Victoria’s testimony is just to vidid in its details ,repeating exact conversations. but her account also fits in with the way the interaction was going on between her Mercades and BH .Again for her just out of the blue to ask for a ride . Scott i seem to be going after you today but do you really see Victoria wanting to get in a car and still be in thier contoll after stating that she was in fear of her life .
The problem with the kidnapping charges to me is as follows , It is by far the most serious of the charges .so unless your intent was to put these 3 in jail for a long time it is a bargining tool and nothing more . Life in prison was never the intent of the state in this case .Kiddnapping and slaps on the wrist do not go hand in hand . The other real problem with the kuidnapping charge is it is the only charge levied against the defendants that is not in some way or any way supported by the recorded tape or any of the texted messages . The 3 defendante would surely have said it didn’t happen and it would have been Victoria’s word against the other 3 . Even by victoria’s statement it is not clear who was in the room with BH and Victoria when they were packing up Victoria’s stuff and BH told Victoia “no you are coming with me” .They would have seen
BH leading Victoria by the arm and a jury still might have chosen Victoiria’s word .But with the seriousness of the sentence for kidnapping this was always going to be a bargining tool …

Reply
January 25, 2009

Phil

The Official Canadian Temperature Conversion Chart

50&deg Fahrenheit (10&deg C)
Flordians shiver uncontrollably.
Canadians plant gardens.

35&deg Fahrenheit (1.6&deg C)
Italian Cars won’t start
Canadians drive with the windows down

32&deg Fahrenheit (0 &deg C)
American water(with Bourbon) freezes
Canadian water(with Rye) gets tastier.

0&deg Fahrenheit (-17.9&deg C)
New York City landlords finally turn on the heat.
Canadians have the last cookout of the season.

-60&deg Fahrenheit (-51&deg C)
Mt. St. Helens freezes.
Canadian Girl Guides sell cookies door-to-door.

-100&deg Fahrenheit (-73&deg C)
Santa Claus abandons the North Pole.
Canadians pull down their ear flaps.

-173&deg Fahrenheit (-114&deg C)
Ethyl alcohol Freezes.
Canadians get frustrated when they can’t thaw the keg

-460&deg Fahrenheit (-273&deg C)
Absolute zero all atomic motion stops.
Canadians start saying “cold, eh?”

-500&deg Fahrenheit (-295&deg C)
Hell freezes over.
The Toronto Maple Leafs WIN the Stanley Cup

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

O.K. I will address the more seirous issues first. The kidnapping was not caught on tape therefore you are 100% correct it would be the hardiest to prove. False imprisonment was clearly shown on the tape and these honors should be extended to all of these girls. Although, Victoria stated Mercades blocked the bedroom door at one time (not real clear on the tape) and obviously Brittini H. clearly locked the door and blocked Victorias exit. However, as a whole the group further blocked her ability to leave just by the fact of being so out numbered. None of these girls was going to let her leave with the camera rolling. Except for the statement by April Cooper who seemed to think that the beating was over after she pummeled Victoria on the bed.

Brittany Mayes I have no doubt would not have allowed her depature. Kayle had way to much to say to let this happen. Mercades was on the couch and offering nothing but perhaps popcorn for the show. Cara of course has always been the most difficult to explain in the case.

We all know false imprisonment charges were not filed. I do not know why and have asked this question several times as I believe there was more than enough evidence to support that one.

Phil, you bring up another issues. Supposedly Victoria had already packed her stuff and went out to the car when Mercades was trying so “desperately” to help her BF out by telling her to leave. Why if her things were already packed did we see her packing things on the tape. Christina stated at one time I believe it was just her cigarettes however, I see her packing more than that. So which one of these versions is true she was already packed or she was packing after the girl dropped her off. Once again someone is lying and the tape shows who.

The kidnapping charges were never going to send these girls to jail for live. However, they were valid. I have repeated this statement to nausea. No one would ever want to accept a ride when they have just gotten the hell beat out of them. She said she was scared for her life. She would no way have got into the car with these girls without force.

Common sense has got to win out on that one. The victim stated it. It makes way more sense than any of the lies these other girls have told. So I am going to have to go with Victoria as always. Plan and simple Victoria said she was going to call the police. They girls were no way going to let this happen. So lets get her in the car and let her know exactly why she is not going to. Can’t waste anymore time doing this at home because Mercades will be late picking up Nana.

This goes a little off however another questions arises. Mercades and her sister were living at the grandmother’s house because she was ill and needed help. Why was she the one working at a nursing home (which no matter which department you work in is extremely difficult work) when Mercades was sitting at home commiting a crime.

No disrespect towards Mercades grandmother. If it weren’t for her intervention these girls would have never been punished at all. They would have all lied about the incident. Just something that has been a little confusing to me.

Another issue if I have not stated it before is if Mercades was not at the bonfire party. I do tend to believe this is true since their is no evidence to the contrary. How is Christina so sure that Victoria was drunk. Does not really matter anyway. Just another question that makes me go hmm…

Phil basically I guess the only one you can prove without a shadow of a doubt was in the car with Victoria would be Mercades. She was the driver. So no further evidence needed on that one.

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,

Mercades provided a safe guided tour into the home to get her things! Tori went outside and when they got outside to Christine Dorssett suckered Mercades into allowing her to stay with Mercades response being ” Ugh, whatever, I don’t give a shit” then of course Tori brought her things back into the darn house, so Inspector Amy, survey says XXX

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Had to love your weather joke. Very very funny.
Mine may be more factual than funny but here it goes.

30 degrees Fahrenheit – The thermometers in Floridians cars fail to measure temperature and just say ice.

40 degrees Fahrenheit – Floridians will wrap up every plant within a ten mile radius. Except for the ones that can be dragged inside.

50 degrees Fahrenheit – Still warrants the extreme concern for the safety of our animals so they must be kept in doors for the night.

60 degrees Fahrenheit – The kids at the bus stops are still bundled up in jackets that look like parkas.

70 degress Fahrenheit – Floridians laugh at the Canadians who jump into the ocean because it is far cold for swimming.

80 degrees Fahrenheit and over – We complains because it is to hot and our beer won’t cool down.

Anything below 30 degrees – Forget it we are in hell

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

Firs of all, where did you see her sister living with my mom??????????? You need to stop with accusations that you just keep making up as you go, an opinion is one thing but this is just trash talk. And for the record Mercades was not living with my mom, she was staying with her for a time to help my mom, and not that my mother’s medical records are any of your dam business, but the doctors had just released her to go back to work for x amount of hours per week, and she had to only do med cart, because her restrictions were that she could lift over 5 lbs. would you like a copy of the report for this as well? The more you speak the dumber you look. Stop trying to play detective, you’re no good at it, don’t quit your day job, being a mommy.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

So glad your um troubles with getting on to the site have been cleared up hon. Wow just in time to come out swinging. You are right and for this along I will apologize. After I made the statement about your mother I knew I crossed the line.

As for the more I speak the dumber I sound I don’t live in hicksville hon. Of course I have no intention of quitting my day job. Put in way to many years of college for that one. As for being a mommy do you really want to go there with me?

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090122/NEWS/90…

Reply
January 25, 2009

Scott

Amy, passive sates like Vermont think they can rehabilitate pedophiles. There was a sad case last year where a repeat offender rehabilited by the state of Vermont was allowed to roam free and he of course kiled a girl named Brooke Bennett whi just happened to be his niece. It doesn’t get any sicker than that.

Amy, someone is lying or made a mistake where the Tori willingly went with mercades, Brittini an Brittany to CVS or they forced her to go. I’m not saying Tori told a mistruth but the truth must be known when the sentences are handed out. They either made Tori go with them which is kidnapping or Tori asked to be taken to meet her friend. One of these is true. I don’t know which. But it’s importnat to find out what the truth is.

And yes Amy the larger issue is that the offending girls appear to be getting off lightly. They might not think that but the general public does.Phil, Mercades may be facing the same charges as Hardcastlebut she shouldn’t be. Mercades did not assault Tori but Hardcastle did. And that’s the difference between the 2 as far as the charges should go.

I don’tblame Judd Phil. And if his department should be investigated so be it. I have no idea if he or his detectives used corruption in the Victoria Lindsay case. But it doesn’t matter because the crimes against Victoria were caught on tape and that has nothing to do with Judd. The girls need to pay for their crimes. And if Judd is guilty of curruption he should pay too. But I don’t think he will be investigated unless there is absolute proof against him.

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

Sure Amy I’ll go there with you, you would never have the ass to defend your daughter as I have : ) And where you live doesn’t make you, you can be a hick that lives in New York for that matter. And the line you crossed was not with my mom, if you think about it you knew where the line was crossed, but Amy don’t think to hard ok? I wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself.

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

Amyv,

Sure I’ll go there with you, because I know you wouldn’t have the momma ass to defend your daughter as I have, And you know where you crossed the line with me woman and it wasn’t with my mother. And one more thing where you live does not make who you are, you can be a hick all on your own living in lets just say New York or anywhere else.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

Christina –

Do not under estimate the strength I have to defend my daughter. I would defend her to the my death if necessary. Their is a difference between defending your daughter and blaming everyone else for her mistakes. As for having the momma a** and defending my daughter like an ass I will give that one to you.

I kind of have to strain my brain to wonder which statement sent you off into one of your rants. not to hard. I am sure it would not be the one it should be and that would be about your mother.

I will go with whatever makes Christina look bad. Getting closer woman.

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

No, your statement about my mom was an obvious line crossed, its you putting my youngest daughter in a situation that has nothing to do with this case. I suggest you don’t go there again. Unless, you want me to go there, for example who in the heck is spending time with your children all the hours you are on here? And while my father was sick my computer was shut down for months, my focus was on him, not on a case which didn’t even concern me.

Reply
January 25, 2009

gompertz

Okay, first let me say good morning to everyone. This is a link that Christina asked me to put on the blog and since I can’t access Ledger articles some one may have to read it for me. Anyway
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090122/NEWS/90…

and I don’t know if the link will work because it doesn’t work for me. Looks like an interesting discussion but before anything else I am going to have some breakfast and think about all the reasons I
have for not wanting to move to Canada. And I don’t drink bourbon or rye so…

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

I apologize to all of you who I have come to value your opinions, advice and respect for any comments I have made on this blog that may be interpreted as out of line.

I am woman enough to admit when I have crossed the line. My statement about Mercades grandmother was in no way meant to disrespect her. If she is indeed ill I wish her a speedy recovery. I have shown nothing but respect for her from day one. I have stated all along she acted with the utmost decency when faced with a extremely difficult situation.

Also, I would encourage her to look into the rule books as to what is light duty at a nursing home is and with this I am being extremely sincere. Every nurse in nursing home is assigned to a med. cart. Except for D.O.N. and A.D.O.N. also perhaps a wound care nurse. She should in no way accept this from her place of employment as light duty as it is a grueling 8 hour on your feet shift. She should have been assigned to the nurses desk which would meet the legal definition of light duty. Perhaps, she is no longer having to adhere to these restrictions and this would be the appropriate assignment for her if that is the case. If not she needs to get in contact with the labor board.

As for Mercades younger sister I would in no way ever add to the suffering this poor child has already been put through. She is truly an innocent in this case and should be off limits.

For those of you who have shown me support and given me advice with my father I extend my deepest thanks. You all know what I have done for him and how this has affected my entire family. To the ones of you that I speak to off of this blog I feel you know no response is required.

You also know why I feel this case is relevant in my life as I and many others here would like to keep the world as safe as possible for our children. This is where it does pertian to me. Our children should not be subjected to these violent acts and we all as parents have shared ideas on what not to do or what to do to teach them the right moral values.

I will speak no further on this particular subject. For Mercades, her sister and her grandmother I wish you strength at this difficult time in your life. It will continue after this trial as there are two more to come. So much grief that should have been ended months ago. Hopefully Mercades next trail will move faster so she can face her punishment and lead a happier and healthier life style.

As for any other unnecessary events that will keep this in the spotlight. Perhaps better judgement will prevail in the future from the adults who themselves are adding to their lives coming to a stand still.

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

I don’t have anything else to say to you, I feel your lack of respect for the innocent speaks volumes. I have btter things to do than argue with a woman that would rather spend her days on here rather then with her child and ill father. And Mercades doesn’t have any ” next trial” After the 4th she will not have anything troubles left : )

Reply
January 25, 2009

Amyv

To all of you who have e-mailed be advice thank you. I will not take the bait.

Reply
January 25, 2009

Phil

Okay every one Back away from your keyboades lets all take About 6 hours
and reflect on how we want to be represented .Let us promise,not to each other, but to ourselves not to bring up anybody’s family that does not belong to the case regardless what side of the fence you are on these comments are only designrd to hurt .. If any of you knew my parents you could all have a field day with me when ever I posted .You don’t have to like the person s idea that you are commenting .Or for that matter why we are here in the first place .truth be told we could always be doing something better . that is unless all the starving have been fed the enviroment is back on track ,Rasecism has been eliminated and there is no Super bowl to watch . We all have our reasons and opinions .Now i had a new take i wanted to share with you guys but anger always clouds judgement. Bruised feelings interfers with undesrstanding . I will take my six hours and go do something useful hope to see you all back here then .

Reply
January 25, 2009

christina garcia

Phil,

Yo’re right about this situation, when I say such things I only end feeling bad : ( I’m getting off here for the night. I’ll check back in tomorrow. Good night

Reply
January 25, 2009

gompertz

Phil- I just read again what you said on Jan 20 about having our innocence taken away, and how we can never look at young females the same way. I remember how as a young man I would look at a girl as an object of desire in a very natural way. Today, after knowing what is on the girl fight videos, while I could still see a young girl as being physically attractive, something has changed for me. Now when I look at a girl I have to wonder what secrets she is hiding, what horrors she has participated in either as an attacker or as a victim or both. Like everyone else, the voluptuous young female is vulnerable to the violence that pervades our society and truly the innocence of youth is gone and normal desires are distorted by the destructiveness of brute force.

Once I posted here about the way Buddhist monks are taught to overcome the natural inclinations of sexual passion by focusing on the death and decay of young females who fall victim to disease and whose bodies are tossed into the charnel ground. Observing the natural process of physical decomposition tends to diminish the passions and the monks are more able to focus on their spiritual goals. I think that by being forced to look at all young women as victims of violence, real or potential, we get some of the same effects that Buddhist monks obtain by seeing young women as victims of disease. The disease of violence has made everyone vulnerable and if we see ourselves all as being susceptible to destruction and death, we can come to a realization about our common destiny. The pretty girl is as powerless to ward off the forces of destruction as the centenarian and she may soon be lying helpless on the ground being brutalized by a group of attackers. Key in “girl fight” and you can readily see these things, the images are at your fingertips, and the number of these sad spectacles is growing. There are many twisted people who find these images a source of sick enjoyment. For me these images are an incentive to the cultivation of compassion, which begins with the realization that we are all victims of violence, we all share the helplessness of Victoria Lindsay. Some are beautiful young women like Victoria, some are old people who have so far escaped the worst. However, we all come to the same end and while Victoria was not killed the violence she suffered reminds us of how vulnerable we all are, and sad to say, today more than ever, that includes the youngest and most innocent.

Reply
January 26, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

We may never know whether Victoria got into the car willingly or was forced. It is not caught on tape and it seems to be the victims word vs. the defendants. I believe the only way this will be proven to everyone is if one of these girls who plea bargained or had charges dropped has provided additional information.

Beyond this possibility it will be up to each person to decide who they feel is telling the truth. I would imagine that is what would have to happen at a trial. It will come down to whose word you believe.

You well know my believe on this issue. Since we do not know what the SAO has regarding this I must go with the scenario that makes the most sense to me. I believe the victim. I take into account who has the most to gain by telling an untruth. However, at this time that is just a common sense believe to me mixed with a respect for the victim and her account of the story is absolutely the most consistant. Perhaps the trial will clear that whole issue up.

Gomp –

Young girls have been the victims of violent crimes for many centuries. I believe what you are trying to say is that this case opened your eyes to the amount of brutality they are able to inflict on others.

It is truly disturbing if you look at what is posted on the internet. These young girls are no young ladies. There is a certain status symbol now with young girls being tough and able to fight. Regardless of how many of them are willing to beat on one person at the same time. Also regardless of the injuries they inflict on each other. Those days of innocence are long gone I am afraid.

This is why we have advocated flagging any violent tapes posted on the internet. Of course this should go for male fighting as well. It is truly mind boggling how many there are and the level of brutality they show. I only watched two and they both involved juimping. They do not consist of any one on one fighting as I do not believe that gives the tapes the extra shock value and brutality they are wishing to achieve.

Scott –

I believe we have all heard of the horrific circumstances surrounding Brooke Bennetts death. This was surely a death that could have been prevented if this man was sentenced appropriately for his past crime. The sentence should have been life in prison.

The progress we do see with pedophiles is where the public intervenes. Any neighborhood you live in you can pull up pedophiles and their names and addresses on the computer. Parents have put up signs in these peoples yards warning others that a pedophile lives around there children. A small step that probably will not make a huge dent in these incidences. However, where the courts fail our children in these incidences a community at large can succeed.

Reply
January 26, 2009

David

Testing

Reply
January 26, 2009

Phil

testing

Reply
January 26, 2009

christina garcia

Well, they just went even lower on Mercades’ offer today, so they know they don’t have jack nada on her. If they had everything some of you think they did they would said see you in court and never ever had offered what they did today. Gomp, Satro, and Scott you know the drill if you want to know what the offer was. Thanks

Reply
January 26, 2009

Scott

Amy, I believe what Tori said in her statements to be the truth as she recalls it. She had a concusion and post concussion syndrome when she gave her statements to the police and she may have forgotten of blocked out some things. I won ‘t blame any of this on her. Besides I’m sure the girls were insulting each other back and forth online and through their friends and girls who wanted to stir the pot. And all that led up to the assault.

Well said Gomp how we are all victoms of violnece to various degrees.

David and Phil, you passed your tests! )

Christina, it sounds like you and Mercades are finally getting some good news. I can’t say for sure but it looks like the sheriff’s office was making you and Mercades twist in the wind. I could be wrong but that seems to be the case here.

Reply
January 26, 2009

M. Hutchence

WOW- after a week or two of a break, to come on and see all the twists and turns that have taken place…

It really is mind boggling. The only thing i have learned from this circus, is that if any one were to even come close to harming my daughter in the way Vic was… Hmmm all i can say is i would take the law into my own hands the very minute I were to find out, without any hesitation whatsoever.

I hope Victoria heals 100 percent and can totally forget about the event. (doubtful)

and i hope that little pack of angels- (along with the two F-wads that will never be men) whom inflicted the damange, straighten up…

but i doubt it. I’m sure we’ll see their mugshots again. possibly for something worse.

Reply
January 26, 2009

Scott

M. Hutchence, do you feel Tori’s father Patrick should have used your eye for an eye thought process and done something to the defendant’s or their families? Would you really have done that?

Reply
January 26, 2009

Electronica

gomp i didnt say mercs afraid of britti idk i thats true i was just like britti could be mad if she doesnt get the deal just because merc doesnt like it.

and phil idk what they all gonne get so i dont know if its like what i think it should be. idk about kayla and april. i know britta could get a year in real jail if she gets that i think thats a bit too much i think maybe 6 months tops and then like home arrest for 6 months and then long long prbation so she keeps out of trouble.

and amy im still here but i said what i said nothin i heard changed my mind so why should i say anything it wasnt planned if it was why did they say tori leave.

and mr. hutch what would you do if someone says im gonne hurt your dauther. gn.

Reply
January 27, 2009

M. Hutchence

Scott all im saying is that if i had to watch a video of my daughter being beat like that YES!!!
The perps and their families would pay dearly. Ofcourse i would then have to pray for a good jury. I’d most likely have to do life.

My approach isn’t right, but i would seriously SNAP if this happened to my daughter.
especially seeing the added insult to injury of these pigs walking off… basically scott free.

Really are you kidding? Electronica- what would YOU imagine that you would do? Take them out to dinner??? I’m sure you may have a kid or more some day. I really hope you will be a Great mother to them, and not dishonor them by doing nothing, if they get beat to the point of un-recognition andhospitalization.

I would probably let them know it wouldn’t be a good idea to. What do you think? Tori’s dad most likely thought there would be some justice now he sees there isn’t
and by the looks of things, we’ll all probably be seeing a lot more assaults like this. And more slaps on the wrist.

Funny- some of the at risk kids i work with get two years of jail for simply spitting at a cop. but oh yes, they have no money- a lot of times no home, or most cases, parents.

Reply
January 27, 2009

Phil

Of course justice was done, When Mercades writes her forced sincere letter of apology we can only hope that Mercades remembers that the pen is not a weapon and for the next 3 years not to use said pen for anything but wrighting .As not to tempt her too much she should avoid slumber parties and those other events that would have anymore then, 2 ” friends ” over at the same time. If all of this fails she should learn the way to the closest Clinics so the next time she has one of her little “beat up a friend party” she can drive her new beat up best friend staight to the clinic instead of CVS thus avoiding thoes peskey tampering with a witness charges . Those are always the ones that get ya. .I am sure all of her friends are ready to trust her so probation is probally unnnessacary but you all know those corrupt legal officials they just can’t help but to pile it on the innocent .

Reply
January 27, 2009

M. Hutchence

Phil thank you for being one of the sane one’s!!!

I don’t even know Victoria and i am

o u t r a g e d at the outcome of this.

i hope i never have to go thru what she and her parents have gone, will go and ARE going thru .

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January 27, 2009

Phil

M Hutchence
I do not feel very sane right now.but I think as we see each of these plea deals ‘We now know what April found so funny when the judge was impressing on her the seiousness of the charges no wonder she had a hard time keeping a sraight face ..They all should of extended thier wrist for the slap and all went and stood in a corner for thier time out . Now they are aloud to come out into socoity, after March 4th .They will be free to shop ,go to the beach attend paties . Hang out with each other . To work on those letters to be sure . When any of you saw that tape did any of you envision a scenario where one person may get up to six months . .If BH gets 6 months BM is getting less or none . annd the rest after being gounded for a few months and cerfew for 7 months.. About the same punishment my parents gave me for getting caught drunk at school when I was 15 .

Could you imagine that no jail time would be served for the one who said ,17 seconds left ,make it good .,Mercades .Who let this happen .Invited the people over . Allowed it to be taped .Told BH to continue the beating . And only showed concern for the contents of the shelf also will not go to jail for her betrayal . How is this fair , How does this make sense..

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January 27, 2009

Amyv

M. Hutchence –

As a mother of a 16 year old daughter when I saw this tape I was outraged. Victoria’s face was then blotted out and I could only imagine my daughter’s in her face.

I am not an advocate of violence but I would not be sincere if I have not expressed the same emotions as you. The police could not get to them fast enough. I believe most parents would feel this way if this was their child. I imagine the girls who participated, if their parents were to be truthful, would feel far differently if their daughter was the victim.

I believe the only recourse the victims familly has now is to go ahead and slap them all with civil suits. These I am sure they would win.

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January 27, 2009

gompertz

Phil-Unknown has just said on Topix that the Lindsays were instrumental in allowing the plea deals. If Victoria and her parents are capable of being so forgiving then truly they have the ability to put this horror behind them. When we rid ourselves of resentment for the wrongs done to us we can move on, and the greater the wrong the greater the need to be free of thoughts of revenge and bitterness. Remember that for the perpetrators the real punishment may be just beginning. Though they escape jail, they may remain prisoners of their own limited mentalities and continue to suffer from the effects of their own petty hatreds that they cannot or will not overcome.
Will they continue to bash the victim? Will they continue to live in a world of instant gratification and deteriorate in mind and spirit even more? They may find that, beyond their small circle of like-minded cronies, society will not be as forgiving as the Lindsays. The courts do not have the final say and with the video always there to ignite public passions they may find that their criminal act mat be costly for them in the future in ways yet to be seen.
For the perpetrators the future holds a threat and a challenge. The threat could come from an outraged and unforgiving public, and from their own lack of moral compass. The challenge is there, too, and if they can rise above their limitations and choose a different course, they may yet prove themselves worthy of the compassion and forgiveness the Lindsays have offered them.

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January 27, 2009

gompertz

Amy, I truly believe that the perpetrators are now at a crossroads. They cannot just relax and think they got away with what they did. They can choose to continue in their former way and sink more deeply into the dirt. Or they can choose the way of compassion that the Lindsays have shown them, learn true remorse, and live decent lives. This case is not over, the video is always there, and the harm that it caused will live on, even if ,as we hope, Victoria moves on and succeeds in finding a rewarding career of her choice. I’m pretty sure we will hear more from some of the perpetrators in the future. I only hope that when we hear from them again we will be able to rejoice at seeing them taking the high road as benefactors of society and not as repeat offenders.

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January 27, 2009

Electronica

mr. hutch i didnt say i wouldnt do anything im not that stupid. i was just asking what you would do is all. like would you beat up some girl if you heard she said shes going to beat up your girl.

if some girl beats up someone i like is it ok if i beat her up for it.

and if like my firend tells me so and so told me im gonne beat you up is ok if i beat her up just to make sure she doesnt beat up my friend.

and how much would you beat them up. you said youd do life does it mean youd kill them. and if so all of them or just some of them. what about cara. how much would you beat her. and kayla. what if you were beating her but she was like crying and saying she didnt hit tori would you listen to her or just keep hitting her and how much. whats fair. thats what i wanne know.

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January 27, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

I am trying to make some sense of all of this. Never did we believe that any of these girls would serve serious time. Just as I would have never believed that they would truly only get a slap on the wrist. However, this is exactly what happened.

Not even house arrest for three or four months. So what some of us have so advocated from day one has truly been lost. The court system failed Victoria miserably. They have failed teenagers altogether.

What lesson will they take away from this now. It is o.k. to beat, terrorize, humiliate, betray, set up and kidnap without consequences. The lienancy of these judgements far exceeds any scenario any of us had come up with.

I imagine there is much rejoicing going on for these girls at this moment. I just wonder how Victoria feels at this time. If Unknown is to be believed perhaps Victoria wanted no more punishment for these girls.

If this is the case she has shown once again her class head and shoulders above the rest. Her ability to show compassion and sympathy for the very ones who offered her absolutely none. Her family truly wants to put this behind them and has the best interest of their daughter at heart. I am sure they believe civil suits would just prolong this case and cause her more suffering.

This alone is the one good example that seems to have come from this crime. The victim will be viewed by the public as a kind. compassionate person willing to put aside her own suffering to empathize with those who caused it.

Yes the tape will remain on the internet for some time. However, Victoria will have no need to hang her head in embarassment. She has proven herself time and time again. The punishment these girls will receive will be the publics perception of them for a long time to come.

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January 27, 2009

Scott

It’s so true Amy how the victim in this case Victoria Lindsay has been failed by our court system. These sentneces are laughable.

And Gomp and Amy Tori or her parents allegedly not wanting these girls to go to jail should have no bearing on their sentences just as her wanting them to do 20 years in jail should have no bearing on their sentences. And for the courts to take 10 months to come up with this is mind boggling. This case has been a waste of time and did not send any message to people other they can get away with a videopted assault and false imprisonment with slaps on the wrist. And the Lindsay’s won’t even file civil suits for the grwat emotional and physical damages done to Tori. Some poieple will commend the Lindsay’s for that. I won’t.

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January 27, 2009

Scott

Amy, as far as making sense of this case, the serious charges agains the guilty teens and the slaps on the wrist they ended up with makes no sense so don’t even bother trying to make sense of it. I have said all along I want real penalties for these girls but I also wanted all of them to serve their time and get second chances at a young age. I know they haven’t gotten a free pass but it just seems like it.

I wonder what good ole sheriff Judd thinks of this?

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January 27, 2009

gompertz

Scott, I don’t find this result surprising. I always thought the kidnapping charge was a bit of grandstanding by SAO. When the video came out there was widespread outrage and the harsh charges were a concession to public opinion when many people favored life in prison or even death penalty. I believe the fix was in and prosecutors and defense collaborated to drag things out until public outrage decreased and the whole thing could be quietly dropped. With the feebleness of the court’s decision we may yet see a resurgence of public outrage. The fact is that the video will never disappear and only time will tell if the lawyers have miscalculated. The court’s decision does not mean it’s over. It only means things have entered a new phase and the demeanor of the perpetrators now may decide whether we see movement toward healing and reconciliation or further discord.
As for the Lindsays I can only say they have taken the initiative and done more than their share to bring about healing. Let’s wait and see how the perpetrators respond now.

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January 27, 2009

gompertz

But really, it seems you guys are all missing the point. No one is asking the big questions, such as:
Will the smirk return to Ms Cooper’s face?
When will the girls be able to return to cheerleading practice?
How long will it be before Ms Mayes can rejoin her old team? And what new tricks will those crazy kids be up to next?
With proper diet and exercise, will tiny Kayla be able to bulk up to the point where she can stand up to Big Brittni?
How many times a week does Kayla feel sorry and for what?
And who will bring the camera next time?
Where do you buy tissues in Lakeland?
These are a few of the burning questions that demand answers.

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Gomp, if the SAO was grandstanding and dragged this out until people forgot about it then they are a disgrace to the state of Florida. And you might be right about the prosecution and the defense collaborating to drag this case out. If it’s true it’s very sad. Tori had no justice served on her behalf. These past 10 months were a wasted 10 months of her life that she can’t get back and in the end she still didn’t get protected by the system.

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Gomp, as for all of your questions about the girls and Lakeland I am pretty sure nothing has changed.

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January 28, 2009

Phil

AmyV and Scott .I think some lessons were learned We know that Cara learned that it wan’t to bad until you watch it later and you have to be careful with what you want to post on the internet . So you know that they have learned either not to tape the next beat down or to do a better job of hiding the tape .They must of learned to be more careful with thier texting . for The next deseved reciepiant of a beatdown ,codes will have to be used to make sure that if law enfocement are given info by someone ‘s Nana it cannot be traced back to the peoplee involved . Also they must either beat the person more or come up with a better deterent not to have the person call the authoritys . They obvisiously have to work on thier after the assult threats this was largly innafectual last time. ‘They also have to make sure that thier lies and excuses match -up better . This sloppines made it much harder to pinn the assult on the victim and did forces them to do the unthinkable and blame each other . This to me was so sad seeing friends turn on friends. i feel if they learn from thier mistakes and take to heart the states position that it was really not that serious they can get on to thier good work of adjusting the attitudes of all of thier other friends that may need it . .

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January 28, 2009

Phil

Here are some ways Mercades can serve her 100 hours of Community Service

1) Shelf Protection sevices . This ia a good one because no resume is required just see attached Video ..Nothing says I care more then being concered for ones possesions .
2)Do a reality show lookng For new BFF .after all she did loose her last one.
Contestents should practise the bob and weave because you know how you get voted off her BFF list . Please make sure as well that the contestants medicall insurance is up to date as not to impose on the finacial well being of the contestants family.

Sidenote her other friends could help out given thier experiences with the lighting of the house and best places for filming.

3)Set up a group home to help young teenage girls’ who for whatever reason cannot stay at home , to have a risk free place to stay . Again can draw on previous experience .,safe guided tours and timley warrnings will once again ensure the safty of those who are in need .
Also the free attitude adjustment for every week stayed will ensure the mental well being of those lucky enough to qualify .
I feel that the above charitable work will help make those 100 hrs of service just fly by .

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Yes Phil, Cara knew it was bad after she watched the video of Tori’s assault. And Tori even bailed Cara out with her testimony. Tori is to be commended on how good she was to these girls who damaged her so badly. That was nice of her.

Good ideas Phil. ) You are something else.

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January 28, 2009

M. Hutchence

Nice to them of course!!

She is most likely still terrified of all of them, and probably had a good idea that they’d all be let off scott free and finish her off the next time they could ambush her.

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January 28, 2009

GregS

Electronica, yes if someone beats up you it is morally right to assemble a group and beat them up.

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January 28, 2009

GregS

I guess the conclusion, if you don’t want to be bullied like Victoria

1. Join a gang.
2. Buy a gun.

It’s really the only moral option left, so I guess now I’m pro gun and pro gang.

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January 28, 2009

gompertz

M. Hutchence, so true. Victoria needs to study martial arts and surround herself with real friends who will help her stand up against the bullies. And I hope she is doing something about resuming her education too.

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Hutch, can you imagine how Tori will feel if she see’s Hardcastle or Cooper at the mall or movie theatre? She could be very scared especially if she’s alone. What a shame. Or maybe I’m wrong and the gilrs will apologixe to Tori and mean it.

Gomp, this should have been Tori’s freshman year in college at age 17. But she spent the year waiting for this ridiculous case to drag on and on and on and still not get justice. Anyway I also hope Tori starts her college education this year so she can start moving forward again.

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January 28, 2009

M. Hutchence

yes definitely- she should cut out far away from them, and even Florida if she is still there.
The bigger the city she goes to, the better.

Hopefully they don’t track her down. I’m sure they will want to, seeing how Victoria has inconvenienced them.

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January 28, 2009

gompertz

Scott, I once read that Victoria was considering a career in medicine. Can you confirm that?

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Hutch, I can’t imagine that those girls would ever go near Tori again let alone did something to intimidate her. Unless they make up of course and peace is the word.

Gomp, Tori was interested in becoming an X-Ray technician according to People magazine. I do hope she studies something that gets her mind off the assault and the assailants. But Tori is also very recognizable with her dark good looks so people will likely recognize her for years in public as the girl who got beaten up on video and that’s quite sad.

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January 28, 2009

gompertz

Scott, if Victoria gets into the medical field as an Xray technician maybe she can continue from there to study medicine in conjunction with martial arts. I know people who combine a knowledge of tai chi and dim mak with Chinese and western medicine. If Victoria took that path, she would no longer be known as the girl who got beat up. She would become known as a defender of the weak and a healer and we need more people like that.

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January 28, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Please let me know when and if the idea for my new BF series comes one. I am sure myself and many other mothers would be flocking to let our daughter’s earn BF status with Mercades.

I don’t think Victoria has to worry about these girls anymore. I believe these girls need to worry about each other. Can you imagine if any of these girls ran into each other at the mall or on the street.

Remember the betrayal started with Victoria. Then Kayla and Mercades got together against B.M, A.C. and B.H. Even told the police the other girls were going to lie. Betrayal #2. Then Mercades and Kayla said they were scared of B.M.. Betrayal #3. Cara Murphy from the get go agreed to testify against them #4. B.M. cut a deal first and had what kind of info? #5.

So lets assume that Brittini Hardcastle gets some time in prison. Really doubt it. However, can you imagine the anger she is going to have towards these girls. Especially Mercades and Kayla. Mercades because B.H. thought she was a good friend and defended her when punching Victoria. Then Brittini Hardcastle, Mercades new BF, Mercades said she was scared of. Of course the little one stated this as well.

No, I think their is a lot of hatred to go around with these girls. However, the fear should be of them running into each other.

Brittini Hardcastle seems to have no problems beating someone half to death for little reason at all. So what is she going to do with a friend who betrayed her?

Cara Murphy seems to have no problem filming this for her in the event that it does happen.
Of course Brittany Mayes loves to film, oh wait you can only do that if you are not the one getting beat up? Wonder what kind of noises she would be making if B.H. got a hold of her. Uh, yea baby.

Of course Kayla should go hang out with people her own size perhaps a preschool class can help her out. Mercades I believe would have the most to fear from some of these girls. Especially Brittini Hardcastle. I am sure B.H. would be in no way thrilled to see her.

I did not say I would condone this kind of behavior. Just stating if I were some of these girls I would be very afraid of the others.

M. Hutchence – Any parent who saw their daughter beaten like this would want revenge. That is a very natural instinct. I know I definitely would have it. It is not like one or your friends being beaten up. You have to be a parent to understand this statement.

Scott – I really hate to say anything negative about Victoria’s family. They are all victims. I do agree with you I do not understand why they have not at least filed civil suits.

I just wonder if my daughter came to me and said “Mom I don’t want to go through anymore” what I would do. This is just a possibility of why they are not filing but maybe a strong one. Do you go against your daughters wishes after she has been so badly hurt? Of course if this is not the reason I think they are doing an injustice towards there daughter by not persuing this form of punishment. We just don’t know their reasons.

I stated before it should not way heavy on the judges decision what the victim wishes for a sentence. Especially in violent crimes. So no I do not believe if indeed Victoria wanted light sentences for all of these girls it should not have mattered. They are violent and the possibility of future violent acts has to be taken into consideration.

However, you can not really be outraged at this verdict if you do not believe in the kidnapping charges. That was the charge that would have carried any meaningful jail time. So if you don’t agree with that charge you are left with exactly what these girls got. The assault was a misdemeanor.

Gomp – Of course it was a kidnapping. No amount of blaming Sheriff Judd or seeing something special in Mercades can make it anymore feasable that Victoria accepted a ride. That is what sounds ridiculous. Nothing in a self defense mode would make you want to ask these girls for a ride. How does that even sound logical?

If you believe in the grandstanding, media attention seeking, massive corruption theory then once again these girls, especially Mercades, got exactly the sentences that would fit their crimes. IF the SAO didn’t drag their feet, etc.,etc.

To much focus was put on the corruption of everyone in this town. Not enough emphasis was put on the victim and her absolute and total lose of rights taken away from her by these girls.

The continued corruption theories will certainly help on a later blog when Christina goes after every cent because of her suffering. OF course I am sure if any money is won from this she will be more than happy to pay for Victoria’s medical bills for life. IF anyone profits off of this case except the victim that will be the true corruption in this case. That will prove without a shadow of a doubt our justice system is beyond repair.

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January 28, 2009

Scott

Gomp, i think learning martial arts could help Victoria feel more confident about herself.

Amy, wow that was like a half an hour post wasn’t it? And you had your tongue planted firmly in your cheek sarcastrcally for most of it such a Kayla hanging out with pre-schoolers. )

Also Amy you may be right that Tori told her parents that she just wants to get this over with.

And while the case can be made that those girls did not kidnap Tori they certainly did commit adult false imprisonment against her as well as assault and battery and tamoering with a witnes. These were serious adult charges for those girls. How did they escape them? The SAO never should have filed felony charges against the girls that they would just roll over on if the case went on and on. And that’s what happened. If those girls got convicted of felony kidnapping you’re looking at a long time in jail for each girl. Maybe that’s why those charges were dropped. Or maybe the Lindsay’s said enough is enough and threw in the towel. I guess all the delay tactics by the defense paid off in the end. I just think so little of defense lawyers in general and I don’t think much of the SAO either.

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January 28, 2009

Electronica

greg i someone beats you up and you and friends jump her you can get in trouble the cops dont care you got beat up first.

and in school you gt jumped ou fight back you get in trouble same trouble like the ones who jumped you they dont care who started it.

and what if someone bats up your friend. is it ok if you beat them up. gn.

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January 28, 2009

gompertz

Amy, I agree with Scott that SAO should never have filed kidnapping charges if they were going to drop those charges in the end. Of course the SAO could have made the case for kidnapping but in the end they chose not to. It didn’t matter what the victim wanted they could have pursued the charges as originally filed. But they didn’t. They filed those charges when public interest was high, and they dropped them when the public lost interest. That doesn’t mean they’re corrupt, it just means that like all politicians they respond to public pressure. If they had charged the perpetrators as juveniles back in April we might have seen a trial back in June or July with sentences of 2 or 3 years in jail for a few, and SAO knew that. But if they had charged them as juveniles back in April, the public would have been outraged at the lenience of the charges. Today we might be satisfied with a sentence of 2-3 years in juvie but back in April most would have thought that was too mild. We asked for too much, like ten or twenty years, and wound up with nothing. So SAO gave the public what they wanted at that time. So we got stuck with charges that were not commensurate with the standards and guidelines for the offense. And we wind up with this result that those of us who still follow the case find outrageous but most people will not notice. At least that is what prosecution and defense lawyers are counting on. Tonight Greta had a brief segment on the case, with the video featuring prominently. At the end she said that one defendant had taken a plea deal with no jail time. That was all, no commentary. We’ll see if Greta-wire.com lights up with people protesting the lack of jail time.

I just read over the old posts from April and May when many people were posting. Many of them predicted exactly this result. They said that the defense would attack the victim and the charges would be dropped. They were right. People knew how these things usually work out. The victim is attacked and the attacker gets away with it. We will never get justice from the courts the way the system is now. I’ve said it many times, we are at war for our way of life. The enemy is not only the bullies and violent gangs but the leftist ideologies that have taken over the courts and the schools. I don’t mean that it would help to replace radical leftist ideologies with “conservative” ideologies. We don’t need any ideologies, we need a return to spiritual values. It isn’t enough to learn the physical aspect of martial arts. That can get us in trouble too, as Electronica points out. If you retaliate against an attacker, you are in as much trouble as the attacker, and maybe more. Let’s just look at the present case. What if Victoria got some friends together, like a posse, and retaliated against those who beat her. It wouldn’t matter that the video existed, she and her friends would have been in trouble. What I would recommend for her is the kind of thing I suggested just before, forget about vengeance and get an education. Combine the standard program of medical studies with tai chi and dim mak and eastern medicine and eastern philosophy and she can achieve greatness. If enough people do this, we can fight back against the system. And maybe in five years, if Hutchence is right and they come after her again (because she inconvenienced them so much) not only will she be ready this time but maybe society will be more ready to accept the idea of victims fighting back. That will happen if people are outraged enough at this kind of result and remain vigilant. No, I’m not happy with it but I am not too upset, because I know it isn’t over, only this phase of the struggle is over. We have lost many battles along the way and willl probably lose more because the enemy is strong but we will win the war and restore moral values to our society if we keep fighting the good fight.

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January 29, 2009

sauerkraut

Wow… cannot believe how long it’s taken me to read all these posts. Cannot believe the ringleader’s mother is participating in the discussion. Cannot believe the prosecutors are so lacking in spines.

unblessed believeable.

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January 29, 2009

M. Hutchence

Hello gang- over and out- my emotions have run all over the place- I’ve seen and said all i have to offer. Everyone’s posts have been valuable- Electronica, even tho some of your posts riled me- they were very insightful. Good luck to you- you should think about getting into criminal defense.

Finally to say, I felt like the legal wranglers would make a joke of this case, and the Lindsay family. and they did.

I’ve learned a lot. You can not count on shit for family protection anymore, and in the next ten years, maybe our kids will be able to kill eachother for pleasure and sport. and maybe we as parents can cheer them on- and then have BBQs with the winning families.

As juvenile as i sound for a 44 year old. .. if anything remotely like this were to ever happen to my daughter, the story will have a much more appropriate ending.

I’m not happy that i feel this way, but this case has helped me see the light.

Ciao everyone!! Have a great new year!

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January 29, 2009

Scott

See you Hutch.

Hardcastle accepted her plea deal for up to only 5 months in jail and pehaps 3 years on probation. And that’s it. Amazing isn’t it? Brittany Mayes could do more time than Brittany Hardcastle. Huh?

Gomp, this story is not big news anymore. I doubt it will be big news again. Ony a trial would have done that.

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January 29, 2009

Scott

The way this case is going for Victoria Lindsay she might be the only one doing time in this case for bloodying Brittini Hardcastle’s knuckles. )

On a side note how does Mayes who plead guilty to misdemenaor assault face up to 7 months more in jail than Hardcastle who plead guilty to felony imprisonment and assault? This does not add up. But that’s par for the course in this case.

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January 29, 2009

Phil

Scott you are just now being silly
The latest has Victoria pleading guity to first degree battery for damaging BM’s knuckels . The tape was used to prove when Victoria got off the couch it caused BM ‘arm to change angels and therefore caused Victrioa to hurt BM ‘s knuckles. But to suggest jail time is just you being bitter . I hear at least 2 years of probation for Victoria ,She must write all present in the room a letter of apology.(The site of blood on the kuckels caused alot of distress for the other 5).
Also she must refrain in calling any of the 5 low life scum who got away with assult.)
OK that last one is was mine .

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January 29, 2009

Sarto

I have followed this thread off and on for months. First, I congratulate Christina for getting into the middle of the thing. Took a lot of courage. Helped me see her as a real person and I think I saw a lot of personal growth on her part.

Second, I hope that Victoria gets on to a better future. She played her own role in this drama by choosing to live as she was living. Doesn’t excuse what happened, but she set herself up. I hope she now gets some counseling, gets some college, finds a moral compass and a spirituality to live by, and makes better choices in the future, especially her choices in friends. She should ask: Why am I attracted to marginal people? I agree with Gomp: Some martial arts would help, first because they teach discipline, but also because they give confidence that you can stand up. They also teach you when to stay and when to run. She should have run as soon as she saw April and BM with the video camera. She should have run as soon as April let her up and the door was still open. Instead, she stayed around begging for a cell phone.

Third: I hope all the girls get to a better place as young adults. They all have to find a moral compass more solid than the kind offered by Electronica and the rest of her ungrammatical generation. The amoral approach to life they live by only lead to more trouble.

Fourth: The pictures of BH and Mercades that just appeared in the Ledger show a common thread: Deep shame. Yes, the state has been dragging its feet after over-reacting to Sheriff Judd’s accusations. But all the girls now know that their fame is going to stick with them for a lifetime. Victoria may live on as the one who endured the beating, but the rest will live on the ones who displayed their viciousness to a whole world.

For a year, the infamous six have sensed people pointing and staring at them behind their backs. They have felt and seen the judgment, the harsh comments, the contempt. I bet more than a few perfect strangers have given their loud opinion to these girls, face to face. No decent parents are going to let their kids be friends to these kids. Years from now, somebody is going to recognize them and say, “aren’t you one of those girls who….”

When they stood there in court, it was in front of a menagerie of other offenders…who were looking at them, laughing and commenting. You have to be in a courtroom to understand what I am talking about. Years later, when these girls have families and their kids find out what their mothers did, they’re going have to explain themselves to them. It just goes on and on.

So, for long months, society has rubbed six snotty noses in what they have done, and there is more to come. And…supposing they do grow up and abandon the amoral adolescent values Electronica so ardently defends…what happens every time they remember what they did? If they finally have an accurate moral compass, how do they explain themselves to themselves? And what do they say when their own kids are bullied…or are bullies?

Fifth: Community service is going to keep those girls in front of the public eye and they will hate every moment of it. BH knows that some really tough ass women are waiting for her to show up in jail. And then, if any one of them screws up again, the whole story is going to come out again all over the Internet and the whole world will say, I told you so….

Sixth: As this comes out, Nancy G is going to have a field day. What a golden opportunity. I can just imagine an hour-long program which shows the videos again while Nancy asks in that over-righteous tone that is her hallmark: “Is this justice?” I can hear Florida trying to explain itself and I can hear the outrage all over again. The state may have waited until the whole thing died down, but it can be stirred up again in a minute. And then the girls will have to worry about self-appointed vigilantes.

Yep, a gift that keeps on giving.

Seventh: So, this is not going to end well for anybody involved. The girls will not be hurt as badly as some people hoped, but this whole thing is going to cling to their skins like a bad stink on a dead cow.

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January 29, 2009

Electronica

sarto idk why you pick on me. i try to do the right things not all the timea but a lot and when i screw up i admit it and i learn. and its not always easy to do the right thing i dont always know whats the right thing to do. but it doesnt mean i dont have morals or whatever.

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January 29, 2009

Scott

Phil, y’all are sillier than me with your last post. ) But we should start a petition to keep Tori out of jail for…um…assaulting those teen girls hands with her face and head. Allegedly of course. And let’s hope Tori has the same SAO that The Infamous 5/8 did.

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January 29, 2009

Amyv

M.Hutchence –

Many of us as parents are angered by the lack of justice for the victim. I believe anyone on here who is a parent has the natural instinct to defend their child. I myself have agreed that my first instinct would have been to go after these girls myself.

Of course after we have seen the punishments handed out we feel the further need to protect our own. Let me stop short of saying I would require life in prison. This shows no better example to teenagers than what has been shown already.

Good luck to you and your family.

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January 29, 2009

Amyv

GregS –

I am assuming you are in a younger generation than the rest of us. I am also assuming that you are much older than Electronica. Forgive me if I not correct.

You have seen a lot of violence in your life time. Unfortunately, many of your statements about not trusting the police or justice system to help have been proven in this case. Yourself and Electronica are the generations we have been commenting on. You all truly deserve better than this.

However, Greg as the elder for Eletronica encouraging gang memebership or buying a gun is not a good example. She has already learned a distrust for authority and lets not make this case worse for her. Perhaps just seeing the outrage of the American people towards these girls in some way will let young people know we do care. Oops, not just Americans.

Although this case is a terrible example we have all learned that perhaps if mistakes were not made in the beginning the out come could have been different. This has opened my eyes to issues in our court systems and perhaps signing petitions and lobbying for changes higher up will help.

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January 29, 2009

Amyv

Sarto –

Wow at first I thought you were one of the defense attornies. Yes it does seem Victoria had her share of troubles. As for Victoria setting herself up and playing a role in this drama hard one to swallow. Her mistake truly was in her choice of a friend. Not so sure she would have considered all of these girls friends. She really seemed to have put her trust in one. Mercades.

As for her running soon as she saw the camera rolling you need to watch the tape again to see how many girls were blocking that bedroom door. She is not a line backer. Of course she could have ran for the front door while the girls were adjusting the lights. However remember I’m sure it was difficult for B.H. herself to see well enough to lock that door just in the nick of time. There was no way out for her.

You are correct about who this tape will truly follow. Victoria and her family came out of this, despite every attempt to discredit them, as forgiving and peaceful human beings. Victoria showed mercy to the very ones who showed her absolutely none. Her family choose not to drag this painful crime out any further by not filing civil charges. They are in a much better class than the rest of these girls and their families.

This is what the public will remember in the future. The tactis of the defendants and their families will take a very long time to live down. As for these girls explaing to their children what caused them to commit such a violent act that will be tough. Let us hope their shame will be severe enough to give their children a good moral compass. Just don’t send them to Grandma and Grandpa for advice. That would be blame the victim and making ever penny you can off of this tragedy.

Refrain from attacking Electronica. Although, I myself have not always seen eye to eye with her you are surely not setting a good example. Electronica was not involved in this crime. She has just been stating her opinion and reality of the violent world she lives in.

She herself believed these girls deserved punishment. She did not agree with the charges. When she stated they should have been charged as juveniles she was right.

Electronica –

Sorry for speaking on your behalf. I know you can hold your own. All you can do is make mistakes and learn from them. Everybody will admit that happens through out your lifetime.

Good luck to you as always.

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January 30, 2009

Scott

Amy, Tori never could have run through Hardcastle to get out of the bedroom. I know Sarto wanted Tori to run but come on she never would have gotten by Brittini and Brittany. One of them would have grabbed her and thrown her back into the bedroom for April to take care of. Tori was not leaving that bedroom and house without being punished.

And Sarto you writing that Tori played her own role in this drama minimizes what happened to her. If by drama you mean assault and battery and imprisonment then you are correct.

Well this disaster of a case is almost over and I am glad about that. But we know justice wasn’t served in this case.

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January 30, 2009

GregS

Amyv everyone whos anyone is in a gang. The police, the military, even the politicians have their fraternities. I’m not encouraging Electronica to join a petty street gang. I’m encouraging her to join a network, either a sorority, a country club, etc.

I grew up in an era where an individual could still be a loner, and not get beat up on tape. Of course I’ve been jumped, but it was never like what Victoria went through. The new forms of bullying are far worse than what my generation had to deal with, and my generation had gangs and violence.

Amyv its not that adults dont care. It’s more like the only adults who do care are the adults who are the adults who don’t own guns and who don’t have authority. You care, and I’m guessing you don’t own a gun. See the problem?

There is strength in numbers. All teenage girls must join SOMETHING, whether it be a gang, or the girlscouts, or the softball team, they’ll only be safe in packs now. Electronica does not need to necessarily be violent herself, but in order to protect herself from violence the only options she will have is to either be violent herself, or be a part of a group which has some violent capabilities.

Don’t get me wrong, when I said gang I don’t mean street gang, I’m talking about gang in the classical sense of the word. A gang is just a group of peers. The gang can be her clan, her family members can form something. It can also be the martial arts academy, they can form something. Maybe I was wrong to recommend carrying a gun, but it really depends on how bad this gets. If the bullies start using guns to bully people into submission for their youtube videos, then the only way to defend against that is by having a gun. It sucks but this is what happens when bullying gets out of control.

If I had to worry about that kind of bullying, I’d resort to carrying a gun. Nobody should have to be bullied on tape, and many people will resort to carrying a gun to give them immunity from bullying. I’m not saying this is the “best” solution, it’s just the easiest solution, and for some people it’s the only solution left. If for example they had to live in the projects, and it’s filled with bullies with knives and guns, do you want to be that one kid without a gun?

Gun control doesn’t help because it’s not like the bullies stop doing something just because it’s illegal. They only stop bullying you when you have enough weapons to defend yourself from them. And I’m pro gun, I don’t think teenagers should have guns, I’m against teens having guns, but they already do have guns and are planning on using their guns to make new youtube videos, so you must see that many people are simply backed into a corner where they will require a gun or be victimized on youtube.

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January 30, 2009

GregS

The best answer is for adults to keep kids safe.
When adults don’t keep kids safe, kids learn to keep themselves safe. I had to learn to do it as a kid, and the next generation will have even greater insecurity. The reason kids carry guns is because they are afraid of being bullied, it’s that simple and it always was that simple. The bullied kid was the kid who invented the slingshot to kill the bully. The bullied kid invented the weapons, then the bully eventually gets access to those weapons and the bullied kid invents new weapons, and this game has been going on for thousands of years.

The gun was invented to preserve the liberty of bullied people, so that they would have the freedom to live their life without being bullied to death, enslaved, or tortured. Militias were invented to protect the people from being bullied, ALL authority, law enforcement and government was originally created for the purpose of preserving liberty.

What happens is, eventually the bullies take over everything that gets invented. They first take control of the weapons, and use the weapons to become more efficient bullies. Then through these weapons they take control of governments, very much like how Hitler did. Once they get control of government, they corrupt the nature and purpose of authority and government, turning the authority into a tool to further bully people into submission and dominate/surpress them.

All the proof you need is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE

Our country was founded by people who were bullied and chased out of Europe in some cases. The founders deliberately designed the constitution as a document to preserve liberty because they knew that only through preservation of liberty can bullying be stopped.

If you have liberty, then I don’t have a right to enslave you at gun point.

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January 30, 2009

gompertz

Hello everyone, I’ve caught up on reading all the posts and it may be that Sarto’s depiction of the girls’ future is accurate as to what they can expect in the form of public reaction to their crime. I have said all along that the judgment of the courts won’t be the deciding factor. If I had time yesterday I might have posted something like that myself but without Sarto’s power of expression. On the other hand I might also have pointed out what someone said on Topix, that the perpetrators won’t suffer much from public disapproval. What if they never intended to go to college in the first place? What if the thought of having a career as lawyers or doctors or engineers never entered their minds? And what if the only public approval they care about is that of their group? And what if, within their circle of friends, their deed is esteemed? As for Victoria choosing “marginal” friends, it seems that is the only choice available for many young people today. The world the young inherit is a world without moral values and the only goal is instant gratification through sex and violence. How have we come to this? The technology of entertainment has overpowered the senses with its slick messages and the schools offer no moral standards because the prevailing social doctrines are too shallow to find a validation for morality in the impoverished universe that science has revealed. The discoveries of modern science showed us that the world can be comprehended without the “hypothesis” of a God (as the mathematician Laplace explained) and now it shows us that the world does not need to be comprehended at all. Niels Bohr says, “there is no deep reality” and there is nothing in the experimental results of the physicists to give us hope that our moral principles rest on any more solid foundations than our subjective projections. Do any of the girls who beat Victoria think about such things? Does Victoria think about them? I hope she does, in fact I wish everyone would. Niels Bohr was led by his research to embrace Eastern philosophy with its emphasis on the reality of consciousness. My own spiritual search led me to Buddhism because the harsh dogmas of western religion with their insistence on an either/or approach to morality offered no way to combat the social degradation of our time. I think it is a mistake for people of good will to fall back on the “old time religion” and deny the realities that science has shown us. And it is wrong to conclude that what science shows us somehow destroys morality. These opposing doctrines (which some characterize as a conflict between “liberal” and “conservative”, mistakenly, I think) do not offer any hope that we will ever have anything to offer to young people that would help them make better choices. I believe Bohr and Jung are right that we must look within ourselves and be guided by the wisdom of eastern philosophy. However, when I turned to Buddhism I did not stop being a Christian. But my idea of the true Christian is Dostoevski’s hero Dmitri Karamazov, joyfully taking up his burden of guilt for a crime he did not commit, and going off to Siberia with a sentence of many years of hard labor. Dmitri assumed responsibility for the crimes of his brothers because “All are responsible for all.” I think that if we are to make Christianity a vital force in today’s world we must reject the Christianity of the schools and of the televangelists and embrace the message of Dostoevski. Religion is not about gratifying our sense of self-importance and gratifying our animal instincts. So far our religious teachers have not gotten the message that religion is about showing us the Truth beyond our little selves, and that is true for Christian, Buddhist or any other form of true religion.
We are told that Brittni Hardcastle attends church regularly and our first reaction might be to ridicule the idea. But Ms Hardcastle could very well be a devoted churchgoer and be a violent bully at the same time and that does not necessarily make her a hypocrite. Has she ever been shown the way of Dmitri Karamazov? Has she ever been told that the true Christian is the one who assumes responsibility for the sins of all humanity? No, she behaved toward Victoria like a nun in my old grammar school days, administering discipline through violence because that kind of approach comes naturally to someone who has been instructed in the harsh legalistic doctrines that pass for religious teaching in our schools and churches. She has heard that God is Love but if you don’t return that love you will burn in hell and many of the people that you love today will burn in hell too.
Surely our religious teachers can do better than that.
If I knew the Lakeland girls personally, would I pity them or despise them? I probably would not despise them but what is certain is that I despise their lawyers who validate their worst impulses and condone attacks on victims as the way to fame and fortune. And I despise their teachers who just don’t care enough to offer anything better than the failed policies of the past. The world of Polk County is not too different from anywhere else. Young people are adrift in an ocean of false values with no moral compass. Can we offer them anything better than condemnation when, as in this case, they fall so far short of our expectations?

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January 30, 2009

Phil

Sarto
You use your words well to paint a very vivid picture of the lives these defendents may or will have .The question is, Is this what we want for these defendants. .That if the courts are not going to serve justice then society will .Is this not Universal Karma demanding payment to balance the ledger for the evil deeds done against Victoria . The Ultimate cold shoulder to follow these girls whereever they go .Will we see this as just due ,earned by thier actions ,and a fair result in lieu of time served..For how long should society treat them this way, until it is esier for them just to keep thier eyes lowered as not to see what we feel.

Yesterday Britini Hardcastle left the courtroom crying and the comments (including my own) were not nice.Most of us either questioned her sincerity or her motivation for the tears..If she had been stoic or relaxed it would have meant that she had no reorse for her actions . You are in a bad place when it doesn’t matter what you do you will be wrong. BH was used by her friends to do thier dirty work and then betrayed and left alone as (Deservidly so )the most hated of the hated . She is the poster child not only of Bullying but the poster child of female youth violence. Even Mercades Betrayal or BM’s sick enjoyment or Aprils blistering suprise attacks pale to the brutaliyt inflicted by BH ,but enjoyed and encouraged by all in the room.

Before you think I am asking for sympathy ,at this very moment I cannot get the image of BH striding after Victoria with her fist clenched ignoring Victoria’s heart felt plea’s to just let her go.Once again I feel my anger at her rising.

I read a post from a mother shortly after the assult took place that said
“Hell has reserved a special place for the fat B**ch in the pink sweatpants. If what Sarto has said is true . This mother may be correct.Is this what we want.

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January 30, 2009

gompertz

Phil- Let me add that whatever outrage is taken out on Ms Hardcastle, deserved or not, much of the fiercest disapproval will come from people who are projecting their own violence and hatred. For many people the desire to punish these girls is far stronger than their concern for the victim. If all the predictions of hardship to be suffered by the perpetrators come true, how will that help Victoria? It’s not that I disagree with the wishes of those who look for justice. And yes I also feel the “punishment” was much too lenient, in the legal sense. But I’m not as upset as some because (one) I know how the courts work and I never expected anything better from the justice system (two) I always felt that the real outcome of this case would not be settled in the courts anyway. Whatever happens I hope this case was a wakeup call for all those who are dissatisfied with the prevailing system. But that dissatisfaction must be expressed in a positive way, by looking at the reasons for the chaos and violence and addressing the problem in a way of personal dedication and commitment to finding improvement, rather than making Ms Hardcaste the scapegoat for all of society’s ills. That’s the easy way and while it makes some people feel good to scream insults at her, it is just another way of evading our responsibility. I’m not saying it’s unfair to punish Ms Hardcastle, but if we are going to help Victoria and stop more victims from being bullied, we need a different kind of solution. For the perpetrators and for Victoria this case was a challenge to rise above the society that we live in. Dmitri Karamazov lived a life of debauchery but accepted the challenge to assume responsibility for the sins of his brothers. That is the kind of sacrifice that must be made if we are to rise above our petty animal instincts and learn the lesson of the Lakeland case.

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January 30, 2009

GregS

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.ht...

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January 30, 2009

GregS

Gomp

I stand my by statement that there are people who embrace immorality and amorality. Despite what you think, they do have philosophy and religion. Nihilism states that there is no right and wrong. Existence has no objective purpose or meaning. These people who I’ll label as &ldquohooligans&rdquo, do have belief systems. Many hooligans believe in social darwinism, that might is right. Many desire to bring us head first into a state of nature. Before they labeled it social darwinism, it was called the state of nature. Many want to destroy the concept of God, not simply because they choose not to believe in God, but because they don’t want God to exist for anybody. So many hooligans are also atheists, nihilists, and social darwinists.

Many hooligans desire a world where morality and ethics are completely denounced. Where there is no correct behavior. A world where anything goes if you have the might to make your way. They may advocate concepts such as absolute capitalism based on social darwinist principles where the poor, disabled, elderly, or people who just don’t have jobs, ought to be left to die. They want to remove social programs not because they believe in limited government, but merely because they believe that everybody should fend for themselves. They don’t like do-gooders and would expand the size and scope of government in an attempt to prevent individuals from helping others.

Many hooligans are anarchists who hate government, hate society, hate humanity, and wish nothing more than to see everything and everybody be destroyed. So they often adopt the most destructive, offensive belief systems and religions they can, strategically and tactically designed to rip society apart at the seams.

Many of these types are cowboys who want to create a wild west environment where anything goes.
Many of these types advocate bringing slavery back, and adopt racist ideologies to promote destructive ideas. I think it’s a mistake to believe that these individuals aren’t aware of how destructive their ideas are. Consider the possibility that some individuals might be aware of how damaging certain ideas are and religiously set out to generate as many destructive ideas as possible before they die.

It’s very possible that a certain influential percentage of the population hates themselves, hates you, hates society, hates anything &ldquomoral&rdquo or &ldquogood&rdquo, and seeks to destroy all that is beautiful, good, moral, or positive. Just as there may be a God, there may also be an anti-God. Just as there are people like Amyv, who claim to want to help people, and people like Gomp who believe in right and wrong, there are also people who desire to hurt and destroy as many people as they can before they die. These group of people are sometimes called hooligans, or terrorists, or thugs, they don’t love anybody and that includes themselves. They hate everybody including themselves, and simply want to self destruct and take as many people down with them when they do it.

I think people if not today, someday, will have to finally recognize the fact that there are certain people who’s purpose in life is to destroy and hurt. And these people are just as dedicated, just as focused, just as proud of their actions as a person who dedicates their life to helping people would be. Once we understand that hooligans actually exist, and not blame video games and TV, then we can learn how to do more than simply clean up the mess and rebuild after society is destroyed, but we can actually prevent its destruction.

If you want an example of what hooligans are, here are some hooligans rawstory.com/news/2008/Three_men_indicted_for_burning_black_0127.html

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January 30, 2009

gompertz

Greg, “despite what i think?” I wonder if you really understand what I think, based on what I have just posted. I allude to Dmitri Karamazov. Have you even read Dostoevski? If you had, you would know that Dostoevski never ceased explaining that there are people who will do evil just for the sake of doing evil, that there are people who destroy for the sake of destroying, and who will create chaos out of nothing more than boredom. And of course I really do know that “hooligans” and anarchists have belief systems. And I am well aware that these people know that they are being destructive. Since you like to give us reading assignments, why don’t you read (or re-read) Notes From Underground? Dostoevski makes many of the same points you make that you seem to think I don’t understand. I do understand about the evil in people’s hearts. Where I differ from Dostoevski (and most conservatives) is that, while I believe in the validity of morality I don’t think there is a philosophical or theological justification for this belief.
I will try to clarify my position some more, since apparently I haven’t done a good enough job so far. In the past, it was believed that morality was justified by philosophical and religious arguments that were based on an understanding of the way the world was constituted. That understanding was founded on the conviction that Newtonian physics was absolutely true. Today scientists are less likely to speak of truth, and religion and belief in God are set adrift with no foundation. Currently, the prevailing philosophy is a mixture of fuzzy postmodernist ideas and old idealist metaphysics made respectable with a dash of psychology(Freud and Lacan and Zizek), and linguistics (Chomsky who still believes Pol Pot was a nice guy). These philosophies are anti-science but they hold sway in the schools and pollute the minds of the young. These philosophies are not supported by science but those who advocate them are able to misappropriate science to give respectability to their ideas. The evil people who want to do harm are likely partisans of some postmodernist or neomarxist belief system and, yes, these people are organized and articulate in defending their positions. Meanwhile those who hold that morality matters are without any support from either science or modern philosophy. As Yeats said, “The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” He wrote that during the time of the rise of Hitler but his words are just as valid today. So those of us who belief morality matters have to find new ways of explaining ourselves. I have used eastern philosophy and sometimes Dostoevski to point the way to a new understanding of moral values. And if we do not do a better job of defining and defending our values, we are left with the Lakeland beating and all those Internet videos, and a long list of ills that beset the world. And yes I know the people who want to cause harm are well organized, they were in the time of Hitler and today they are evn better organized and have taken over the education system throughout the world, with very few exceptions. We can’t stand up to them with the Bill Oreilly solution of mindlessly clinging to ancient scriptures, though that may have worked long ago, in our scientifically and technically informed culture that doesn’t work. If we don’t want to accept the challenge of adapting eastern philosophy (or whatever else works) then your solution of getting everyone to buy guns and join gangs (or whatever you want to call them) is all we have. But isn’t that just how we got to the victimization of Victoria? Soem people decided she needed an attitude adjustment so they got their little group together and did what they thought was right. And then she gets her group and so the violence continues. That is not the kind of world I would want and most people who have children wouldn’t want it for their kids. The problem is complicated and I think it is beyond the powers of any one mind to comprehend. But Buddhism offers ways to justify moral values without the preconceptions of western metaphysics, and I think it is worth the effort, at least for some. The people who want to do harm are powerful, and yes, the gangs are spreading in power and influence and the good people have to organize and oppose them. That is, if they want to have a decent life for themselves and their children.

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January 30, 2009

GregS

Gomp, how can modern science not understand morality when all reason and logic is based on the concept of there being an absolute right and wrong choice among options? (The scientific method and all the math is based on right and wrong) The computer works on logic, if all decisions were of equal values/worth then there would be no truth, and if there is no truth then questions have no real answers. I don’t really know how anyone can accept a world with no real answers, and become a scholar preaching that there is no point to asking questions.

There are scientists who do believe in right and wrong, and in morality. You have the scientists who are building and working on the LHC looking for the God particle/higgs boson. I suspect that the LHC was sabotaged by anti-science forces who claim that the LHC could create holes in the universe. Yet these same individuals believe there is no God and that the universe isn’t real. You also have scientists who are focusing on life extending technologies, and of course you have people who want to stop them, so stem cell research was banned too(until recently).

I don’t really understand what you mean when you bring political ideology into it. I think of political ideology as costumes/cosmetics which people wear or hide behind. Authoritarians like to hide behind political ideologies on the left and right, but they all want to take away our liberties/property whether from the position of government or from the private sector multi-national corporation which are so huge now that they are like governments. Oligarchy is the situation we have now, and if you are elite and at the top, why would you care about right and wrong? If you do wrong you don’t ever face the consequences of your actions, so it’s easy to take the position that there is no right and wrong.

Ex. If you are a CEO getting bailed out right now, you are receiving bonuses worth millions after wrecking the economy, you have enough political pull to force the government to reward you for your hard work destroying the American way of life, and no matter what you do you can just go and tax the general population and make them pay for it. Anything you break you can make them fix/buy it. Any mess you make you can make them clean it up. Of course there is a right and wrong, but if we live in a society where people are made to feel above the law, and above the consequences of their actions, why would they ever take personal responsibility? So it goes all the way up to the top of the food chain, and at the top I don’t think they care who believes in Karl Marx or Adam Smith, because they’ll be at the top of the food chain no matter how good or bad things get.

Oligarchy has it’s purpose in my opinion but if we don’t put the law and justice above all else, we wont be reasonable or rational as a species or as a society and this is what I worry about most. I think ONLY science can solve moral/social problems. Religion to me is how we translate the language of science into the belief systems of the masses, but if science tells us that we are about to get hit by an asteroid, it’s just not going to be acceptable to simply sit in church and pray for a miracle. I’m ready to use science to create the miracle.

I suppose ideology does play a part in this, but I’m too cynical to believe that people really care about the ideologies. I think they simply adopt fashionable ideologies to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish. Truth could be revealed in a math formula, or in the bible, but it does exist. There is a such thing as truth if there is a such thing as reality.

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January 30, 2009

GregS

Gomp, basic math will tell us that if you add or multiply violence you simply get increased violence.I’m not in favor of the violent culture, I advocate for personal responsibility.

When people commit violent acts and we slap them on the wrist, we are not promoting personal responsibility. Then on the other hand people commit non violent crimes and we throw the book at them? Our justice system is so unscientific in how it’s run that it’s not a surprise that we have criminals gone wild and gangs with guns everywhere. I mean even the agendas of all these law enforcement agencies often aren’t focused on the right priorities.

If most of the risk comes from violent crime, why isn’t most of our money going to reducing violent crime? Most of our money goes into reducing political types of crime, and non-violent types of crime, which may be bad in itself, but its often not violent. And we always seem to have some people who are just completely above the law, who can go around doing anything they want to anybody with no consequence.

If this were science, it would be like me saying 1+1=2, except when 1+1=1. A rule must always be consistent or it’s not justice. What this means is that if you are going to say something is wrong, then it’s always wrong no matter who does it. If something is right, then it’s always right no matter who does it.

If robbing a bank is wrong, then it’s always wrong no matter who did it. But our justice system is so messed up that there really is no right and wrong anymore, it’s all about who committed the crime, how wealthy and powerful their family is. The kids aren’t being corrupted by the video game and movies, they see how corrupted the justice system is and they aren’t dumb, they know they can bully their way through life because just look at how their parents are living and look at how much injustice there is?

So because of the corruption and injustice, it’s no longer always wrong to commit crime X, it depends on WHO you committed crime X against. So in Victoria’s case, she gets beat up on tape and nobody, not even the girl on tape beating her up is punished for it. Now if Victoria had been really powerful, and her family really vicious and mean, there would have been consequence at least for BH.

Just look at the situation with Megan Meier, this girl was bullied over the net and they went after the adult who did it. They even want to pass new laws on cyberbullying. Why can’t the pass a law to make it a federal crime to bully and upload it to the internet?

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January 30, 2009

gompertz

Greg, one problem is simply that science has changed its position on what the underlying reality is like. A hundred years ago people still believed that Newton had explained everything and that if we could understand the basic laws of motion of molecules we could translate that knowledge into social science and rectify all social problems. Now we have a very different picture of reality and it is not easy to reconcile quantum picture of reality with our moral sense. Science developed with the conviction that there are absolute answers t questions but at this stage there are serious disputes among scientists as to the real meaning of Heisenberg indeterminacy and Bell’s theorem. There is the Copenhagen interpretation and then there are dissenters like David Lindley and some who write in Schermer’s Skeptic magazine. And even Einstein never accepted Bohr’s ideas, but experiment seems to be on the side of Bohr. Einstein supposedly said, “I don’t believe that God plays dice with the universe.” Carl Jung said, “He does play dice but we don’t know by what rules.” That doesn’t mean there is no such thing as Truth but only that it is more difficult to find than people used to think. All I am saying here is that Newton’s picture of reality gave people a sense of security, a feeling that all scientific and social problems could be solved by applying clear and indisputable principles. That was an extension of the ancient idea of the Great Chain of Being where everything had its place. Today string theory adds a lot more weirdness to the picture. As for the question of 1+1=2 except when 1+1=1, of course it depends on whether we are doing arithmetic or Boolean algebra, in which case 1+1+1 is a true statement at least sometimes. I am not suggesting that science is any less true today than in the days of Newtonian Physics, but there are genuine disagreements that are not resolved, and their resolution leads to arguments that are far beyond the ability of all but a few experts understand. And as Boolean Algebra shows, the proliferation of different kinds of algebra and geometry required an extension of the idea of what was valid. Truth is still truth, only we have so much more of it, in the form of new branches of mathematics and new systems of logic. Remember that in the days of Kant the greatest minds were convinced that Physics, Geometry and Logic were pretty much complete. But then came non-Euclidean geometry and Galois theory and a whole world of new forms of math and logic and the old philosophy couldn’t account for it and that includes ethical theory. So while science continues to march triumphantly to more and more brilliant discoveries, and hopefully will cure disease and intercept all those asteroids heading our way, it seems that for society as a whole science no longer provides the security of a unified system that can justify the moral judgements of people. That is why Bohr turned to eastern philosophy and I think we need to, because eastern philosophy gives us back the connection between science and morality that has been disrupted by the change from Newton to quantum physics, and let’s not forget the shock of Darwinian evolution.

I agree that ideology shouldn’t matter but in our time there is the additional factor that the ideologies of marxism and postmodernism have taken hold in the schools and have done great damage. Also, I agree that not all the evil comes from the radical leftists, but there is a difference. In the case of the hooligans who burned down the church we are dealing with a simplistic ideology based on hostility to people who are perceived as different (at least from the hooligans’ point of view). That was the Nazi view and no matter how clever nazi propaganda might be, it can nevr have universal appeal and because of its being limited in its appeal it could be easily seen through and defeated by military means. The reason the ideology of today is dangerous is that it conceals its destructive nature behind appeals to brotherhood and social commitment. That makes it dangerous because it can attract people who really have a genuine interest in brotherhood and social commitment. Though as a general rule I agree that people in power adopt ideologies out of convenience and in another generation we may see different alignments of power with different ideological bases I think it is important to realize that not all those who speak of brotherhood and social values really mean it.

The point about Buddhism is, while it has religious aspects, it is really a form of psychology, and based on observation. The Dalai Lama has said that when scripture conflicts with the discoveries of science, the scripture has to be rejected. Can you imagine a religious teaching that says that? In my view, the difference between science and non-science is the problem of verification (or falsification, as Popper said). Scientific statements can be subject to experimental testing, the dogmas of religion cannot. Nor can the ideologies of the postmodernists or marxists or nazis. Buddhism, in its true form, is subject to verification and its justification has always been that it works. If you practice the Buddhist way, so the claim goes, you will produce people who are peaceful and live in harmony with their neighbors and their environment. If you do not follow the Buddhist way or another real path, you will produce the violence and discord. That’s what can be subjected to verification, and I think it is the only real justification for being a Buddhist, just like practicing science it makes life better for those who practice it. Sorry if it sounds like preaching, I don’t mean to, because it isn’t about what I believe and you don’t have to take it on faith. And also being a Buddhist doesn’t make me what they used to call a “flower child.” During the Vietnam war I was involved in some violent anti-war demonstrations but I never threw any flowers at the riot police…

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January 30, 2009

Phil

To Gomp and GregS
I would have to agree with that to which I find agreeable unless of course to that which I am agreeing cannot be summed up in such phrasing .
In which case I would have to say that by disagreeing with the previous statement of agreeing that we can all be led to the unequivable but yet realistic truth of the events as it relate to todays scocial /semni political instituions adding in of course the judicial factors we can surmise that hitting is not good .mayby even bad.

Sorry guys just haveing a little bit of fun at your expense

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January 30, 2009

gompertz

Phil- fun good, food good, beating up people bad. Now I just got home after trekking two miles through ice and snow and extreme cold (cold bad, ice bad, snow bad) to get my egg foo yung. Egg foo yung good. Will comment more later. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

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January 31, 2009

GregS

Gomp that is precisely why I don’t accept any of those dogmatic ideologies. My only concern is empowerment. I don’t care about issues or style as long as the government or corporation empowers me. I came to this conclusion in a cold rational scientific manner that only empowerment means anything.

I decided upon libertarianism because it’s the only political theory which appears to have a rational basis. It’s founded upon principles of personal empowerment. This upsets the left and right who believe we belong to and must serve governments or corporations. The world we have is the worst nightmare, a world where we are forced to serve two masters, the government and the corporation.

Liberals focus on the issue of gay rights, so they try to pass laws to allow gay marriage. I don’t care about that because I’m not gay, but I do support equal human rights. Homosexuals are human. The problem is that liberals don’t really believe in human rights, and neither do conservatives, and neither group wants to empower their supporters. They pass just enough stuff to keep the special interest groups happy and content, but they never go so far as to simply put human rights into the constitution itself, or to pass anything big to empower the individual, because they think in groups and in terms of what will keep them in power rather than how to help others. The way to help others is to empower them.

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January 31, 2009

Electronica

amy thanks. and dont worry i dont like guns and gangs and anyways im not afraid i can take care of myself.

and i dont know why sarto said what he said about me and didnt explain what if i said hes imoral and didnt explain how would he like it.

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January 31, 2009

gompertz

Electronica-
Sarto only posts once in a while, and when he does he doesn’t stay around to answer questions. See, when Phil addressed a question to him about his post, he was already gone. He only reads our blog once in a while, and right now he might be grading exam papers, or enjoying the beautiful Idaho countryside with his family. Who can blame him, it must be great to live in a peaceful place like Idaho. So when Phil asked the question I answered it in my own way and then if Sarto comes back later he can answer in his own way and I hope he doesn’t mind that I answered for him, because it’s not right to speak for someone else. So I can’t speak for Sarto but I think I know what he was saying. First of all I think he was addressing all the people who were upset because they thought the sentences were too lenient. I think he was saying the same thing I’ve been saying, that the real punishment won’t be only jail and probation, but having to face all the people who don’t like what the girls did. And even if the judge doesn’t give them any jail time, they still have to live among people who think they got off easy and will continue to make them feel bad. You probably read the comments in the Ledger and on the youtube blogs and many were worse than what you can read on mycrimespace and topix. People called them fat and ugly and a lot worse. All the teenage girls I know would be hurt if someone told them they were fat and ugly, and these girls were constantly told they were fat and ugly by many people from all over the world. I’m sure they were hurt by that and sometimes guys underestimate the degree of pain you can cause to a young girl by telling them that kind of thing. Sometimes it could lead to depression and drug use and even suicide. So I think Sarto was saying to the people who thought the courts were too lenient, don’t worry, they’re not getting away with anything, they are being punished and their punishment will continue for a long time. Phil asked if that was fair and I tried to answer him and I want to ask you if you think it is fair. I mean, not the death threats which nobody here agrees with, but the universal contempt and hatred that they face. I also think that if Ms Hardcastle has to do five months in an adult prison that is not as easy as people think.
When Sarto mentioned “amoral adolescent values” he was speaking about the kind of environment you and Greg grew up in. Back in the 50s kids played baseball or played in the woods and if there were fights there was no problem because everybody fought fair and the fight ended when somebody gave up and nobody got badly hurt, and the only time you saw blood was if someone got a bloody nose. Today things are different for everyone. The kind of moral choices you and Greg would have to make in a violent society are more difficult than the choices I had to make as a child. But today I also have to make difficult choices sometimes. So if I’m walking through some lonely streets in Manhattan at night and I see people fighting I have to ask myself, should I get involved? What if they aren’t fighting fair? W hat if somebody is getting jumped or what if it’s like Victoria getting beat up by a bunch of people who want to hurt her and give her an attitude adjustment? If I walk away I will always wonder if I was wrong not to stop it. If I do try to stop it am I interfering in something that is none of my business? And if I get into a fight how far do I have a right to go to defend myself? What if someone gets seriously injured when they attack me, did I go too far? Better not report it, or the police will arrest me for going beyond what the law allows. And a jury might not believe I was only defending myself and I go to prison. So there are all kinds of ethical questions and many times you aren’t sure you did the right thing because today life is complicated and situations always come up where you have to make choices. And split second decisions might look different later when you have time to think about things. Anyone who reads your comments knows you are a good person and that you try to do the right thing. But even good people get into situations where they have to make judgments about what to do and those judgments might turn out wrong, but that doesn’t make you a bad person. Anyway when Sarto said you and your generation is amoral I think he was just saying that we all live in a society where moral judgment are difficult, and I know you have given these things a lot of thought just like me and Amy, Phil, Greg, and Scott and all the other peole who post here and Topix. It’s the society that’s amoral and the amorality rubs off on all of us a little bit, it can’t be helped. None of us ever does the right thing all the time. The girls who beat Victoria did a very bad thing but that doesn’t make them bad people if they feel remorse and try hard to change and help make the world a better place. And I think Sarto knows a lot about these things too because he was bullied when he was younger and took up martial arts to defend himself. And when you know martial arts it’s also easier to make right decisions in tough situations because it makes you calm and makes it easier to think even in violent situations. So anyway that’s what I think about it and I hope I made a little sense.

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January 31, 2009

gompertz

The NY Post reports that Dr Phil’s ratings are down 27% and media insiders are “puzzled and alarmed.” hmmmm……. Anyone who has been following this case might be able to think of an explanation. Just wondering….

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January 31, 2009

Phil

The main reason Dr Phil’s ratings are down 27% is since Mr Obama got elected the world has become 27% smarter .
It is not if 5 months in prison is easy or hard,is it enough of a punishment for the crimes committed .
Although that was not your real question.
I have not been even able to answer my own question . .I cannot say that I don’t want these (insert name calling)defendents not to get some sort of public backlash .I am not sure if I want them to be able to comfortably go through thier day as if this did not take place .If they have no remorse should I feel bad that someone wants to legaly make it known to them how they are perceived .
.Would I believe it if they said they were remorseful.I am trying to be a bigger person and take comfort in the fact that Victoria and her family believe this is enough . although where I live this could never happen but if my step daughter showed up at home with one of these girls in tow .’ wouild she be welcome . .Would she at the very least have to explain herself before she would be welcome or would i just say Hello Britiny Mayes nice to meet you .Hey is that the new JVC video camera you have there . See you guys later have fun and drop in again soon. I doubt she would be welcome ..It is how much is too much and is any too much.When I can become the better person mayby I can give the better answer

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January 31, 2009

gompertz

Phil, you’re right that with the onset of the Obama era collective IQs have shot up and I have it from reliable sources that if you rub your Obama memorabilia while chanting the proper mantra with reverence your life will become sublime and prosperous.

As for the public displeasure that is likely to be felt toward these girls, I think it is inevitable and not at all inappropriate that some people would express some level of outrage in ways that the perps might find unpleasant. One of the great things about remorse is that it tends to develop over time and it might start simply as a sort of self-pitying mood, but later you might say, well what if someone did that to me, how would I feel. And I think the perps are going to have the opportunity to understand how it feels to be the object of aversion for many. The problem is that the aversion could manifest in hatred that would be counterproductive and injurious. So it is a question of balance and it is too bad that the courts abdicated their responsibility to provide a fair and balanced judgment with reasonable punishments and now it is left to a kind of vigilante mentality to administer punishment that could easily get out of control. We will see.

Of course as for Ms Mayes becoming a guest at your home (an interesting thought experiment) remember that by this time (so long after the event) the soft baby tissue of Ms Mayes’ brain will have hardened into the mature cerebral matter of young adulthood so you need have no misgivings about her demeanor. And if you do have any Obama memorabilia on hand she could perhaps help to perform the requisite ritual to manifest its beneficial magical qualities. Let me add LOL if there is any doubt that I am indeed being sarcastic about that last part.

No, I am not being sarcastic though when I say that a certain amount of public censure would be appropriate. What would be “a certain amount?” It depends…Anyway I see there are a few schools of martial arts in the Lakeland area but I don’t know if they are any good but I would advise Ms Mayes and her friends to check them out. The discipline focuses the mind and can lead to seeing the greater reality beyond the selfish ego, and in that direction lies redemption.

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January 31, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

Your welcome. I agree with the advise Gomp. is trying to give you although I have differing opinions on Sarto. I am glad to hear you do not believe in gangs and guns. Although, once GregS responded to my comments I further understood what he was saying.

Everyone does have a select group of people they hang around. Some may call them a gang whiles others just refer to them as friends. Just different terminology from two different generations. I am also very much against street gangs as I believe we all are on this post.

I am from a different generation than Gomp. However, mine also had fights that ended ususually after a few punches were thrown. If their were boys around when girls were fighting they would help break it up not encourage it. I am not saying there were not exceptions to these rules. It was just the way things were handled when fighting was involved. Of course physical violence in any form is not a good way to handle any problem.

I do believe you can take care of yourself Electronica. The thing that upsets me is that you are growing up in an every increasing violent world. I really wish for you as I do my own daughter these were not issues you had to face. That is what this whole blog really boils down to.

As you can see the grown ups don’t have all the answers. I remember when I was young we thought out parents knew the answers to everything. (Or were totally clueless to everything because we knew it all:)

I am very honest with my daughter. I don’t have all of the answers. I do remember being a teenager. There are no set rules that apply to every situation. Adults do not always know what to do to handle the problems that are arising.

Sorry if I sound to motherly Electronica but that is what I am. Just keeping doing the best you can. Do the best you can in school. Be true to what your heart tells you to do.

A friend of mine sent me an e-mail entitled my generation. I will ask him if there is a way to share it with the people on this blog. It meant a lot to me but is by far more important for you to here.

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January 31, 2009

Electronica

gomp thanks but sorry it didnt help sarto said im amoral that means i cant tell right from wrong or mabe dont care. and he said lets hope those girls stop being like me. i think thats unfair but whatever.

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January 31, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz and Phil –

The way to really get this blog heated up is to talk politics 🙂 Republican, Democrates, right wing, left wing, conservatives, liberals, etc.

Gomp I believe it is way to soon to offer any kind of martial arts to these defendants. I am not sure if there was any part of the sentencing that required psychiatric counseling, intensive therapy or even anger management. Some of these should surely have been implemented in the sentencing phase. Although I am sure this issue can be argued. Given the right therapist a lot of good can come from these programs.

After some intensive anger management counseling perhaps then it would be a good time to offer some sort of activity that would focus these girls in a different direction. Perhaps what would be best for the 100 hours of community service would that it be carried out in a hospital like setting. Caring for victims of violent crimes that would show each of these girls what the consequences of their actions might have been.
The life long devestation that no amount of remorse from the defendants could change. Just a thought.

I really hesitate to talk about political views but here it goes. Perhaps rubbing Obama memorabilia will lead to a more prosperous life. Instead of scratching a certain part of our anatomy over the past 8 years under a government that has surely not been for the people. Perhaps that is why Bush left office with the lowest approval rating of any president in history.

All sarcasm aside. I really am not into blindly following any party. Or any leader for that matter. We all know the president alone does not run our country. However, the powers that be have sure run it in to the ground over the last several years. I believe this was America’s only choose of saying we have had enough. Whether this mess we are in can be fixed that remains to be seen. We surely have a long road to go down and a lot to damage to repair.

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January 31, 2009

Phil

Warning .
Do not let BH,Or AC near a DoJo or whatever it is properly called ,.Meditation.medication .anger management . bible studies .Every self help book available,love ins, sit ins. all great ideas If any of these girls learn how to hit properly before they learn to correct what ever the hell went wrong in thier heads then the next person could end up dead .
Victoria definitly . anyone that is the friends of the defendents most defintly could use martial arts training..
And gomp Please do not tell me that the person in charge would be qualified to know the difference .Martial arts is a weapon these defendents do not need weapons they need to learn compassion,/tolerance and basic human decency not how to deliver a better more effective punch.

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January 31, 2009

gompertz

Amy and Phil- Okay I see the mistake I have been making when I talk about martial arts for these girls. I’ve mentioned before that I recommend martial arts to many of my friends and former co-workers for their young children, especially young daughters. Those who accept my recommendations generally enroll their kids in taekwondo or karate. That’s a good thing for those who are concerned with their kids being targets of bullies. For them taekwondo and karate are perfect not only for the discipline and spiritual aspects but because these are the kind of martial art where you get right into the punching and kicking so your body becomes a lethal weapon to discourage the violent ones from attacking.

What I recommend for the Lakeland girls is not like that. I agree that introducing any of them to taekwondo and karate would be counterproductive and of course a lot of preliminaries would have to be completed before any of them were allowed to learn how to become more efficient in inflicting injury. For them the best thing would be tai chi taught as a form of meditation, together with all the therapy and anger management you mention. And the idea of doing community service in hospitals is great. Now you are thinking like therapists and not like prosecutors, that phase is over.

My own original practice of tai chi was related to meditation.. I always loved the woods and felt a kind of ecstasy in the midst of the wild places. That was the feeling I transferred to my tai chi practice. It made me feel calm and I found that my breathing became smooth and even and a lot of mental and emotional agitation I had experienced lost its power. Also the observation of the movements of animals was important ( the legend says the inventor of tai chi learned it from animals) because the animals I observed were so effortless and natural in their movements. Anyway, that is the kind of approach I would recommend, and it is compatible with therapeutic approaches.
Tai chi is a martial art, but sometimes the opponent one is fighting is oneself. I think that the kind of anger these girls manifested, especially IMO Ms Hardcastle, the holistic approach would have the best chance of working. Sure, talking about her problems with a therapist would be part of it. But the neurotic mind has a way of making excuses and resisting the need for change and the purely analytical cure is met with opposition, while working through the physical level can outflank the neurosis and take it by surprise. Anyway that’s how Wilhelm Reich described it, and while there are obvious weaknesses in his approach, he made me see the benefit of the somatic approach. Instead of asking about a person’s relationship with his parents, he would observe the patient’s posture and the sound of his voice. Since the neurosis manifested in physical symptoms, you could attack it through the physical level. I saw that with the eastern emphasis on unity of mind and body, it made sense. So, that is the kind of treatment I would recommend for the Lakeland girls, in a nutshell. The actual implementation of this plan would require some really dedicated practitioners of tai chi and psychology to make it work and of course the subject’s own will to change. Where tai chi helps is that it shows the patient the joy of living a healthy and peaceful life and can overcome the resistance to change.
What I said about Obama memorabilia, I was referring to the way many of his followers attribute to him some divine or magical qualities and I think that they will be disappointed to realize that while he may become a great president he is not a magician. It’s not about politics, but about the collective delusions of so many people who are looking for a saviour rather than looking toward realistic solutions.

Electronica-sorry I couldn’t be of help. Maybe Sarto will explain it himself when he makes one of his infrequent visits. But I think he is a good man and I dont think he meant to insult you. I know that you are a good person who is looking for the truth and sometimes the truth is hard to find but we will find it if we look hard enough. But I still want to know what you think is fair now. If people keep insulting these girls and treating them badly is that a fair punishment? If they are turned down for jobs and not welcome in the schools and the community, is that a fair punishment? And if it is alright for people to show their disapproval of what they did, how much and for how long should they show their disapproval?

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January 31, 2009

Electronica

gomp it depends. i think their friends are still their friends i mean if they were real friends. like if i was aprils friend before id be her friend now too. id tell her she was wrong but i wouldnt stop talking to her i think thatd be realy low.

and i think ppl should tell them they were wrong to do what they did but shouldnt punish them for it they should give them a chance not judge one way them forever. like if one of them moved and went to my school and went to my classes and i had to sit close to her well id tell her i dont like what she did and id ask her how could you do this and that and stuff but i wouldnt like hate and try to make her life meserable id be careful around her but id try to give her a chance and talk to her and maybe be nice to her if she tries to be nice and it doesnt seam fake.

i dont think they meant to hurt tori like forever they wernt thinkin so i dont think ppl should like punish them forever for this only little by telling them that was wrong so they keep getting reminded how wrong it was and never forget it. but i dont see why if you didnt mean to hurt someone forever why you should be punished forever maybe if your a grownup maybe but not if your a kid.

so i guess ppl should tell them how wrong it was but give them a chance and treat them fair. thats what i think. gn.

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February 1, 2009

GregS

Electronica, most people are not going to be as forgiving as you. People who have been bullied in the past are not going to maintain a friendship with a bully. I wouldn’t be friends with April, not simply because she bullies people but because she’s an at risk youth and just hanging around her would increase my risk of being beat up or arrested.

People judge you by who you associate with in life. Whether its right or wrong, you are who your friends are, and if your friends are bullies and criminals, you get treated as one of “them”.

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February 1, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

I really enjoyed your comments. I could not agree with you more that a holistic approach is always the best method of dealing with psychological or physical conditions. This is what I practice every day at work.

I will come at it from a medical perspective as this is where my expertise lies. If you treat a patient for just the disease or the disability itself the outcome is far less favorable. I have seen both types of therapist. The ones who go by a text book and how many feet a patient can walk is their only goal for that day. These therapists I feel, although very knowledgeable in their field, are lacking in seeing that some of the goals are not measurable by text books alone.

Part of the reason I do enjoy what I do so much is you do have the opportunity to make someones life, even if just for an hour, a little easier to cope with. Of course I work hard towards helping them achieve their goals of becoming as independent as they possibly can given their circumstances. Sometimes an hour of therapy may consist of not exercise but just listening to their concerns, lending a shoulder for them to cry on or one of my favorites making them laugh and smile when that has been lacking for so long.

This should be applied to this case. Not the punishment phase but after to see what can be done so they are not the type of people who will deserve being shunned from society for a lifetime. I don’t think any of us want to see that as an outcome. For a while they will have to face this in order to be truly held accountable for their actions. Unless they show more remorse than what we have seen thus far they have a long road to go. A forced apology from the courts is in no way going to convince anyone that they are truly sorry.

Honestly at this point none of us knows which one of them has learned what from their crimes. We know their punishments were not acceptable. They were much to lenient by anyones standards. I doubt we will see much difference in regards to B.H. or B.M.

The message that has been sent to our youth at this point is a terrible example. Excusing the leniancy becaue other peoples punishments were not what they should be is not a good enough answer. It just continues the problem. Where do we say enough is enough, adults and teens alike, if you commit violent crimes there will be harsh punishments. Not slaps on the wrist.

Only time will tell which one of these girls will see this for exactly what it was an extremely sickening and brutal act of violence. The betrayal is the part in this case that can not be easily measured but adds to the crime itself. Further adding to the damage done to the victim.

So right now people are going to not trust these girls. They will not want their children hanging around them. How comfortable would I be letting my daughter go to one of these girls houses? Not at all. It would not happen.

As for Obama and politics I once again agree. Although I am hoping we can start to try to heal the mess the country is in this will not happen over night. Obama is not a savior and people who blindly think they will wake up tomorrow and everything will be back to ‘normal’ are in for a great deal of disappointment.

I just see it as an attempt to take a step in a different direction. Something has got to change. It will take a long time to see if these changes will be effective. I believe he will make a good president. Agree people are setting themselves and our president up for a great deal of criticism if they are expecting instant results. They truly are not seeing the whole picture.

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February 1, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

You brought up some very good points. I thought we had pretty much covered every angle of this story over and over. Yet you made me think of something I never considered before.

I myself have made a lot of the betrayal Mercades inflicted upon Victoria. I have also said I find it a harder issue to deal with than the actual beatings. I am in no way down playing the beating and physical pain. Trusting someone enough to live with them and having them set you up will cause so much emotional damage.

So how do you apply these feelings if one of the other girls were your friends before. With April it maybe a little easier to say. April had already shown what type of friends she associated with ex: B.M. Threats had already been made an attempts to gang up on Victoria were already tryed at one point. So knowing she was like this to begin with friendship with her would not be an issue with me.

Mercades to me is also cut and dry at this point. We have seen what being Mercades friend can get you. Brutally beaten and she helped instigate it as we know from Victoria’s and B.H. comments on the tape. So would I continue to be this girls friend. No way. Her type of friendship I can do without and I would have to assume I could not trust her when she miserably failed with another.

I can keep going down the list with each girl. The easiest answer I can come up with is perhaps what GregS is stating. You are known by the company you keep. If these girls were known as the ‘toughies’ around town I dont’t believe a prior friendship would be an issue.

However, you are right. What if a couple of these girls is not as horrible as every thinks they are judging from their actions on the video. We can assume their must be some good in some of them. We have all agreed after punishment they should be allowed to gain back respect and trust from everyone.

The fact that you would be willing to give them a second chance perhaps shows what we failed to see them give to Victoria. Any chance at all. That says a lot for your character. Yes you would ask why did you do this. Yes you would tell them it was a horrible thing. Yes if you did find it in your heart to stay friends with them you would have to be cautious. This shows you can be a true friend to girls we have doubted know the meaning of the word.

So for your willingness to stay true to a friend I commend you. If this was true of these girls this would have never happened. Is it any better a person that will drop you as a friend if you do something wrong? That is an excellent point. It all depends on how bad a person you feel it would take to commit such a crime. Way to soon after everything we have seen going on to tell if they are worthy of a friend like you.

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February 1, 2009

Phil

Reading the last 4 post,
again Electronica has the mildest and perhaps most mature response about meeting any of these defendents , I am still pouting about the plea bargins and probally not ready to move from “proscecutor just yet.

Vven with Electronica’s reasonable (Mature beyond her years )approach these girls may have to expain this everytime before a serious friendship can occur . Most of have the luxory of being able first to get to know and trust before we open up about the crucial events in our lives . This could pop up at parties or at each new job.Almost at all circumstances where new people are met ,this may occur. Will just this keep them in thier community where I am sure they can stay close to people who will not ask ..
Those that have teenagers whom they are responsible cannot just say lets be fair to these girls .So that could mean for the younger girls Kayla and April this means also convincing the parents as well before a new boyfriend or other friend can become meaningful. .

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February 1, 2009

Electronica

greg if she keeps on being a bully well i wouldnt be her friend i said only if shes nice and i mean nice to everyone not just me.

and greg how do you know how april was before what if she like got into fights with bullys and helped ppl who got picked on. you dont know. maybe she was thinking toris a bully maybe someone told her tori beat them up who knows. she did wrong but doesnt mean she was always so bad and maybe she didnt think she wasnt thinking much and now shes sorry. kayla too i dont think shes into fighting so maybe she was scared of tori if your scared your angry and ashamed cause your scared and you dont do what you should do.

and amy yes i agree they didnt give her a chance and that was wrong tori said shes sorry and april hit her anyway sucjer punched too. and tori was like trying to talk to them and they let britti keep on hitting her.

so we shouldnt be like them we should give them a chance.

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February 1, 2009

Electronica

and phil is it mature to forgive. like the older i am the less i forgive if i get burned twice im careful and you realy have to change so that i give you another chance. and grownups forgive even less i think so whats mature.

but i think grownups shouldnt treat kids like grownups they should forgive them more its only fair cause kids have to live with grownups and have to forgive them they have no choice if their parents treat them bad a lot kids cant just leave they have to try to live with their parents and forgiver them cause you cant really live with someone and hate them. but parents can leave lots of dads do some moms too and i know ppl they live with their grandparents or only with their stepdad. so its not the same kids have it worse so grownups should forgive them more. but thats just what i think.

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February 1, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

You are right with age or what we call maturity we do become more guarded. That is one of the things that unfortunately happens when you have been ‘burned’ over your lifetime. So once again very good point. Do we become less forgiving as adults? On some issues yes on others no.

A child truly is born to put total trust automatically in their mother. Also fathers are meant to protect their children. So when we have a new generation being raised by one parent, abandoned by a parent or not having any parents at all how do you learn to trust?

I have seen way to many teenagers and younger raised by some truly uncaring parents. My niece has never once laid eyes on her father. This causes her great pain and she is in her 20’s. I can not explain to her or anyone why the people you should trust most in the world are not there for you.

You see for parents who would die to protect their children this will never make sense. I just wish this was a natural instinct to ever man and woman. This one I don’t believe any of the parents on this blog can answer for you. It is truly inexcusable.

I do think the thing that maturity brings is what is truly not important enough to get angry about in the first place. Comments when you are younger that you perceive as disrespectful you let go of with age. So in this way friendships are not so easily thrown by the way side. I hope I am making sense. We become more tolerant of the little things in life.

The larger things we do find more difficult to forgive. We look at this crime differently we imagine if this were out daughter. Or even if one of the girls commiting the crime was our daughter. This is where our forgivenss is a little harder to extend. You see you judge them as a peer. We judge them as a threat to our own children.

I agree with Phil that you have made us stop and think if we “practice what we preach”. Although those were not his exact words I hope he will not mind my speaking for his meaning. You are showing a maturity beyond your years. Take this as the compliment in which it is meant to be given.

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February 1, 2009

gompertz

Electronica- Thanks for you answer. As usual you have considered all the sides of the problem and you try to be fair. April would be lucky to have true friends like you, who wouldn’t abandon them when they do something bad. You would also explain to them that what they did is wrong and correct them and that is what a true friend would do. Of course when you try to be fair some people will criticize you. Some will tell you that you are immoral for standing by your friend, especially when your friend is like April and has committed a terrible act. Some will say that since April is notorious for being a bully, you will be considered foolish for associating with her because your friend could drag you down the same path. But that is the sacrifice we make when we stand by our friends, and there comes a time when you have to decide if you can still be that person’s friend. I think that’s a part of what you and Amy and Phil are saying. There aren’t any easy answers and even grownups make mistakes sometimes.
What Amy and Phil said just confirms the fact that it is difficult to know when you can trust people and when you can’t. It’s really impossible to tell, except with hindsight. I had a friend named Dan who fought in Vietnam, while I went to college and protested the war but we remained friends, Later Dan got into a bad crowd and was sent to prison for armed robbery. When he got out I remained his friend. Many people stopped being friends with him and said the rest of us were foolish because we still trusted him. Later Dan applied to join a veteran’s organization and some of his old military buddies vouched for him. These buddies were considered decent and reputable citizens, some were cops and detectives and firemen and their opinions were respected and they said Dan was a good and honorable man who had just made some mistakes, so Dan became a member of the organization based on their recommendations. His friends soon realized it was a mistake when Dan stole a large sum of money from the organization’s treasury. And many people said that his friends should have known better than to trust a convicted felon. And those who trusted Dan were really hurt when he betrayed their trust. These were grown men with good jobs and many years of experience but they were betrayed, just like Victoria who is much younger was betrayed by her friends. Well, when Dan got out of prison again (I forget how many times he was in and out of prison) he came to me asking for a loan like all the previous times but this time I told him to go away and leave me alone. Some of the people who were hurt by his betrayal were friends of mine too and even though I wasn’t directly involved in this episode because I was never in the military and didn’t vouch for him, I still felt he had no right to be trusted any more. Some would say we were wrong to trust him just like some would say that April’s friends should turn their backs on her and they could point to the way Dan acted and the way April acted as proof. But it only proves that sometimes when you are loyal to people who have done wrong you will get hurt, but many times you won’t. I’ve been friends with other people who were convicted of violent crimes and I trusted them too and they didn’t disappoint me. The case of Dan just stands out in my mind because he is an exception who proved unworthy of trust. Right now we don’t know if April or Mercades or the others will be more like Dan or more like the ones who rewarded our trust by reforming and becoming good people. I think it is always better to give people a second chance and even though I have lived a long time and there have been times when my friends betrayed me in various ways, I still think it’s better to give people another chance. Most people are capable of being very good or very bad. Some like Casey Anthony seem incapable of being good and for them there shouldn’t be any more chances. But don’t let anyone tell you that it is wrong to trust people because in the long run you will be better off trusting than being suspicious and vindictive. I have found out that people will reward your trust many times more than they will betray your trust. If you are true to yourself and you are true to your friends it is better for your physical, mental and spiritual well-being and you will be a lot happier, even if sometimes you get hurt and some people call you names for it.

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February 3, 2009

Phil

Funny the way Karma works ..When this started we were told that it was payment for the bad things wrote about the perps on Facebook or whatever the internet application . .Well now they have had more bad wrtten about them on the internet,then Judas , hitler and Charles Manson(I haven’t really researched that last statement.)
Now we have to get beyond the anger part ,our discussions have been what would we say to these girls . should Society offer the proverbial olive Branch …Myself I am worried , If these girls read this siite ,and lets face it why wouldn’t they .they will see all the un nice things that I have said about them ..Name calling , sarcastic made up storys just to make a point .The constant beratement of both character and motive .If the few things that Victoria “MIGHT “of said upset these girls so much what about the 3 post a day blistering personel attacks that are now forever on this site. I know what you are thinking . That i am not the only one to say these things . Although this is true . I do not think the girls will try anything in Flordia right now
so Scott and AmyV I think can relax . Although Gomp saying he was at Vietnamm protest and therefore sounds like the sort of helpless 6 on 1 victim that would appeal to these girls .There is way to much talk of Martial arts for them to take a chance .Lets face it a quick trip up north to Canada where they are not well known .do a little site seeing and as friendly as we are all suposed to be ,its just asking Where is Phil from MCS. My Topix post shows I am from Ottawa .
With all this in mind I think we should all get together to wish these mis-understood people all the understanding that they need .
.I must ,like all of society hope that they have gotten over thier urge to beat people up for bad things said .That being said for those of you who have my email .Please check in from time to time just to make sure I am not receiveing suspcious Text Messages .Being well over 40 with a bad back would make me an easy prey .These girls are just scary,No i meant just Deary .Really all that other stuff I wrote , Gomp made me and he knows Martial Arts ..I will now go and live among the Innuet (Formely known as Eskimos) till it is safe to return to my family .

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February 3, 2009

gompertz

Phil, you make a lot of important points, some entertaining and some more serious but always thought-provoking. Yes, we do seem to be winding down, and for the legal aspects of the case that is true. But from the time I started posting here six months ago I have always felt that, whatever happens in court, the real trial begins where the courts leave off. Still the end of the court case gives things a sort of finality and my reminiscences of the Vietnam protests were triggered by the sense that something is ending here. Both the Vietnam war and the Lakeland case are parts of larger processes than do not begin or end with the most sensational and destructive manifestations of violence. Ho Chi Minh was once asked what he thought was the significance of the French Revolution of 1789 and he replied that it was too early to tell. I think the same could be said about the Lakeland beating case. Those who feel angry that justice was not done in court must remember that true justice is never delivered in court anyway. Sarto presented a very vivid picture of the kind of sentence that society will pronounce on those who perpetrated the violence, and that kind of punishment is far more significant and has the potential to hurt or to heal. The perpetrators have escaped with little punishment in the legal sense compared to what it might have been. But for them it remains to accept responsibility for their act and to see public censure (within reason) not as a scourge but as a challenge.

Some of us were more inclined to be hard on the perpetrators with our comments than others. But even the harshest rebukes delivered by those who post here were mild compared to the vile insults found in other forums like the video blogs and the Ledger, and I think that the worst criticism here was given in a spirit of guidance and correction rather than a wish to inflict gratuitous pain. Yet we have no right to expect gratitude from the perpetrators for all our efforts to be fair and helpful, just like we have no right to expect gratitude from Victoria for whatever support we may have given her. Just like I have no right to expect gratitude from those Vietnamese peasants in whose name I protested. I don’t know any of these people and they don’t know me and I am only responsible for my own choices and actions.

As for any fears of people objecting to what I wrote, well, the name on my posts is the name on my driver’s license and I’d be easy to find if anyone came looking for me. I’m not worried that Ms Mayes will be upset because I sometimes said she may be the ringleader, or that Sheriff Judd will send a posse because of my comments about corruption. So yes, I think we have done a good job of being fair and honest. Some will say we were too fair and honest and that the perpetrators don’t deserve to be treated with mercy because they showed no mercy toward their victim. Victoria and her family have shown mercy to those who were merciless and it remains to be seen if the perpetrators will choose the way of healing and reconciliation or reject the offer of peace. For me the really interesting part of the story
is what happens next, and as Ho Chi Minh said it’s too early to tell what that will be.

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February 3, 2009

Scott

Phil, I hope you get back to your Innuet life. You should be safe there. Until you run into a hungry Polar Bear. And I never knew a Polar Bear that wasn’t hungry. )

I agree with you that the arrested girls in the Victoria Lindsay case need understanding even though it’s hard. They all also need professional counseling as well as probation and community service so they truly understand what they did and why they did it. Beating up Tori was one thing. April doing that took 15 seonds or less. But after that beatng all the arrested girls had the chance to catch themselves and stop the rest of the crimes from happening. But they had no interst in doing that as the video and the filthy language used on it proves. They really wanted Tori to get it and she did. Now they need to be counseled on why they wanted that for Tori and why just beating her up wasn’t enough.

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February 3, 2009

Phil

Scott I wish you were right . Legally they just have to serve thier time /. For Mercades and Britini this means obeying the terms of the courts(probation) .We would all like to see some sort of reconcilliatin .To see Victoria Forgive the remaining 5 . We want to see the five sincerly ask to be forgiven .All that would be good ..
Victoria might not want anything to do with these people and her families(ever). The defendents did this to Victoria because of hate , what has changed there . They probally still hate her..If BH and Mercades stay out of trouble for 3 years why would they need counciling to understand what they did . They did it because they wanted to .Scott this is so obvious they wanted to and they enjoyed it . Thier parents should put them in councling..The law only reqires that they understand they can’t do it again. .For us everything about this case has ended badly.
Besides the letters that will be given to Victoria .I hope each one makes a public display of remosre . Victoria may read the letters and call those that were her friends . We will not know this . The defendants or should we now say the Guilty may try to make ammends .We will not see this either . all of this will move away from the public view leaving us who have followed this it is the same as reading a tragic novel only to have found out at the end that the last 2 chapters are missing . So all we can do is guess at the ending

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February 3, 2009

Phil

To Scott
polar bears may always be hungry but so are alligators . those thing just freak me out .

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February 3, 2009

Amyv

Phil and Scott –

As always I enjoy your sense of humors mixed with the serious issues of this crime. Scott, how many polar bears have you met? Phil totally agree, shocking I know, Alligators freak me out 🙂
We actually have an Alligator Farm somewhere here in Florida. Perhaps Scott will know the location. Why would anyone want to take their family on a trip to walk over water infested with alligators. Talk about setting yourself up.

I have not visited many of the sites you all (notice I didn’t say ya’ll) do. For the very reasons you have stated. Saying these girls did wrong and deserve punishment is one thing. Death threats and different suggestions of torture are another.

I myself have been very hard on these girls many times. As I feel they full well deserve for their actions. Also, sorely disappointed in the judgements handed down. As Phil said this has been done and the next phase is how do they move on? What is their responsibility to Victoria at this point and to earn back public trust?

From a woman’s point of view I am sorry to say an apology from them at this point would not be easily accepted. Especially one forced upon them by the courts. Truly at any time during this case a public or private apology could have been seen as a P.R. move. So time needs to go by to see if their actions will justify the acceptance of an apology.

I must say Victoria will show a matureness beyond her years if she is willing to give any of these girls a second chance. Especially if it would involve interaction with them. As for myself I would have to honestly say I could never form any relationship with any of these girls again if I were here. Way to much emotional and physical damage done.

Perhaps she will or does truly wish them well. We just don’t know. However, not wanting them to be condemned for the rest of their lives and total forgivenss are two different things. As to whether or not these girls still hate her that would go along the lines with their ability to feel true remorse and distain for what they have done.

I really have no fear of these girls showing up anywhere in Florida for revenge against something stated on this blog. Far more hateful things have been said about them to worry about that. Of course also now they would not have the element of surprise or the anonimity.

Gompertz –

Hello. I agree the true issue of this story is what will happen next. If we hear of no new crimes commited are we to assume they have learned from their mistakes (putting that lightly). Of course their is the possibility we may not hear anything more at all. Always leaving us to wonder was an sort of justice served. I believe medical restitution given freely would be a good start.

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February 3, 2009

gompertz

Well, there’s still a little bit of drama left and that is the sentencing on March 5. The judge might actually save a shred of dignity by imposing a few months in adult prison for Ms Mayes or he might complete the farce by giving no jail time at all.
And unless someone does something really stupid and violates probation in some outrageous way, we may never hear any more about them. Neither they nor Victoria have ever made their presence known in any way and there is no reason they will now. I have a feeling, though, that sooner or later we will hear something newsworthy about some in this case. We will have to wait and see.

If we are looking for something positive in this, we might say that the failure of law enforcement and courts to administer justice has rarely been more clearly highlighted. If the videotape evidence was not enough to get justice for the victim, what does it take? With a collapsing economy and foreclosures increasing, there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and cynicism about the legitimacy of government at every level. The Lakeland beating case and its pathetic outcome will enter into the mix of factors that could bring that dissatisfaction to a boil and it could all explode. We can’t predict what will happen but I look forward to picking up my pitchfork with all the other peasants and marching to the courthouse and maybe then we will get justice.

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February 4, 2009

GregS

Gomp what about the failure of justice on Wallstreet? This country has all its priorities twisted. What exactly are the purpose behind these laws?

A lot of our laws are just plain stupid, or pointless, or unenforceable, because the laws are made for political/emotional/cultural reasons rather than to accomplish a goal.

The problem with government and authority is that neither have a purpose anymore. Both claim to exist to keep you safe, yet you are less safe than ever before, often directly because of the actions of those who are in authority.

I don’t think “authority” keeps people safe. Intelligence and smart laws+enforcement keeps people safe. This problem could be solved simply by passing a law making it a felony to upload videos of depicting abuse. This would end the trend of people being beat up and the videos being uploaded to Youtube.

Very much like how child pornography is a crime, and while we can debate how the best way to combat it is, everyone admits that the production of child pornography should be a crime. By this reasoning it should also be a crime to produce videos such as the video in this case, using the exact same arguments.

One idea which I heard debated in the congress by a wallstreet whistleblower from the Bernie Madoff scandal is to incentivize law enforcement. This means that the law enforcers should be paid not simply an annual salary to enforce the “law”, but paid in a similar way to how wallstreet stock brokers are paid. They should receive bonuses according to the importance/size of the case they are involved in. They should be paid based on whether or not they catch the worst criminals.

Ex. You are a cop and you make a standard $40,000 a year salary just like everyone else at first, but your performance over the years is based not on seniority but based on how many big bad people you’ve taken down. If you take down a large organized crime ring, you should be making millions just like CEOs make millions. If you just take down little guys, then you should be making very little money.

The reason this is important is because we want the law enforcers to focus on the BIG crimes committed by the BIG criminals. To make example of the big baddies so that the little people can see that crime does not pay. In fact it should be crime fighting that pays.

This wouldn’t apply to this case in specific because while this case is big in the media and socially very big, it’s not a “big” crime. However I would put a priority on convicting violent criminals and there should be a bonus to law enforcement officers who arrest and convict violent criminals. Using the system of bonuses, you can create an incentive for law enforcement to do the right thing in the interest of justice, and as I see it the only way we will ever have justice is if we pay a premium for it. Justice isn’t free, and as long as we keep paying the keepers of justice on the level of school teachers and we keep paying CEO’s and Wallstreet like millionaires, we get the justice we pay for.

Ultimately what we will need is private law enforcement agencies which run for profit. These agencies should not have the ability to directly arrest. What these agencies should be able to do is the profiling, the investigations, the hardcore police work, basically everything EXCEPT the actual arrest which can be done by the local police in partnership. This way private individuals such as the people posting on this site can actually get rich fighting crime directly assisting the police in catching the most violent criminals, terrorists, rapists/child molestors, etc.

Ultimately it’s going to come to this sorta solution because the governent funded and run police aren’t catching some of the criminals, and are easily corrupted by the organized criminals because most police are very poor and open to bribes. If these police were paid by a private agency to make the arrest, would they be more likely to do it and accept the bounty? or would they accept the bribe from the crime lord?

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February 4, 2009

Phil

The other 2 accepted pleas today not much details .Both will be sentenced as juviniles . Kayla was seen in the hallway in tears apoligizing to victoria’s Mom . It’s a start

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February 4, 2009

GregS

Phil, Kayla was always the remorseful one. It’s Cooper and Hardcastle that most of us are worried about.

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February 4, 2009

Phil

When Kayla apologized on that audio tape I and may others thought it was so insinscere saying you are sorry for the victim instead of sorry for your actions .The letters that they have to write cannot be trusted to be sincere . A young teenage girl crying in the hall apologizing to the the victims mother ,not for the courts sake or the publics sake i find encouraging and hopeful .

I was planning a trip with a close friend to Quebec City to experience winterlude and even there i was being asked about the case , my friends know i follow the case and ask me about the sentences .I said the courts haven’t taught them much
but mayby they still might learn a valuable life lesson . In my experience it can be amasing when the unexpected happens . It is nice to be pleasanty surprised .

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February 4, 2009

Amyv

Everyone seems to have one girl they feel is more likely to reoffend or perhaps two. GregS how can you be so sure Kayla is the one who has always been remorseful? Cara also apologized. Do you find one girls apology in some way more acceptable than anothers?

At this point we could all say that B.H. and A.C. are most likely to offend. How sure are we of any of the others. Even the ring leader can be remorseful or confused about her actions can’t she?

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February 4, 2009

Phil

Amy i like your point especially about the ring leader. it is hard to seperate fact from fantesy especially when it comes to the ringleader s .Regardless who is or who was the ringleader I would like to see what she put down on paper to see if the apology was sincere .whether it was BH or Mercades on someone else .

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February 4, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

This is my problem with a forced apology from the courts. How can you seperate the real from the faked remorse. If someone is forcing you to do it is comes off as shallow and half hearted.

Perhaps you are right. Kayla is the one who did this of her own free will. With the real possibility of nothing to gain. Only time will tell what the future holds for her. Or any of the others.

I to would very much like to see what was written to Victoria. Although, I believe this will be held from this blog and the general public. Only Victoria and these girls, I think, will every know the contents.

Maybe this is just a beginning for some of them and long since been an end for others.

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February 4, 2009

Scott

Amy, I forgot what the bit about the Polar Bears was about. But I have only seen them on television.

These arrested girls got off lightly in Tori’s assault. Especialy Hardcastle who is apparently pregnant. Good luck to her. But I don’t know how she can take care of and provide for a baby. I hope Brittini proves me wrong.

I am happy Kayla and her mother apologized to Talisa and embraced her. I hope news of this makes Tori feel good too. I did not see this on the news but it was reported that this took place. It makes me feel good about this case that was so bad. These girls got off lucky. That said none of them or their families ever deserved death threats and the like. That was terrible and should have never been tolerated. And I hope the girls get the counseling and support they need.

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February 4, 2009

Scott

Amy, I also have my doubts about the forced apologies to Tori ordered by the courts. I don’t like the idea of writing a letter to Tori. The girls should have to go to the Lindsay’s house and apologize to Tori and her family face to face. That would really sting for those girls especially April and her smirk. But no the judge let’s them off easy by their writering letters of apology to Tori. I call bullsh!t on that. And please excuse my 4 letter…oops I mean my 8 letter cuss word.

Amy, I don’t think Cara ever really apologized to Tori. But she said she would during her interview. Cara came accross to me as being sorry that the girls got caught moreso than because Tori was injured and humiliated worldwide. But I could be wrong.

Phil, I have very little to feel good about from the Victoria Lindsya assault case. But Kayla and her mother apologizing to Talisa Lindsay today at the court house made me feel good and I am sure made the Lindsay’s feel good as well. I hope Tori got news of this and it made her feel good as well. Kayla was fresh to Talisa on the phone after the assault and was quoted from the slammer as wondering if she would miss cheerleading practice. She wasn’t taking things seriously then. I hope Kayla has changed for the better. I will give Hassall the benefit of the doubt because she said she would apologize when she gave her audio deposition last spring to the PCSO last spring. Then today at the court house Kayla did apologize to Talisa Lindsay and I am glad she did. And by all accounts it was a heartfelt apology.

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February 4, 2009

Sarto

Saw a brief note in the Ledger about the final guilty pleas, and so I am checking on the site to see what is going on. I was struck by the question: Who is most likely to re-offend? Cooper and Hardcastle, obviously. Especially because H. seemed to enjoy what she did until her mother talked to her over the phone while she was in jail, a conversation recorded and reported by a jailer. Her Mom asked: “How could you be so mean?” Even then, BH tried to avoid a honest answer, even though her mother kept pushing. Finally, still without expressing remorse, she said something like, “I guess what happened was the way it was meant to be,” or something to that effect.

But I am also interested in Mercades. She exhibits behavior found in people with character or personality defects. These people will get involved in some out of control cruelty, grasp what they did, feel honest remorse and offer a sincere apology, and then do it again to that same person or somebody else. Wife-beaters belong to that ilk.

And so we see Mercades horribly cruel to her boyfriend, clumsily try to offer an apology around Valentine’s day, and then act out again. Then she acts out against Tori. This is followed by the myspace page she might have authored, in which she forswears violence and apologizes –I guess– to Tori, with an “I’m sorry, and some peace signs.

If Mercades is operating out of some character or personality disorder, then she is a high risk for repeat offenses, followed each time by real sorrow and a sincere apology. But because this behavior is lodged so deeply in the personality, it will be repeated. So, maybe not so far in the future and depending on the severity of the newest offense, Mercades will see what life is like behind bars.

All this has nothing in particular to do with Christina, who struggles with her own problems. I have seen these character or personality disorders in kids who seem to come from wonderful intact families.

I agree with Gompertz. The sentencing will be only the end of the first act, in which there was no real justice for Tori. But life will go on. I pray for all of those girls because they all need to lead decent lives. This story will hang over them and will resurface at some pretty unfortunate times. May they pick up from this point, aim their steps in a better direction, and move toward a better future.

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February 4, 2009

Phil

Well i personally hate sending a pregnent woman to jail of any sort .I hope she still gets some sort of house arrest Victoria ,BH ,Mercades,all getting pregant ,In my day we got married danced to chicago’s Colour My World as your wedding song then got pregnentt . I mean that’s 3 out of seven . is birth controll expensive in flordia or do these boys not know which end of the condom goes on first

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February 4, 2009

gompertz

Phil, back in my day we didn’t even know what a condom was until we had become fluent in French and Latin and received all seven Sacraments. Or was it nine sacrament, I forget. gn

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February 4, 2009

Amyv

Phil,

If you remember as you obviously do it was widely reported that Victoria was pregnant at the time of this crime. Of course nothing ever came of that. Then Mercades now B.H. I will wait and see on that one. I will afford B.H., although maybe undeserved, the benefit of the doubt on this rumor.

I will defend my state in saying that I don’t believe we come close to the national average for teenage pregnancy. In my day Marshall Tucker was the prefered wedding dance.

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February 4, 2009

Scott

Sarto, are you sure that was Hardcastle’s mother asking Brittini how she could be so mean when she was in jail? The way I heard it is one of Hardcastle’s friends called Brittini when she was in jail asn asked her how could she be so mean to Tori?

Amy, I recall a post on Topix that Tori was pregnant after the assault and that she according to a poster at Topix was out partying up. I have no idea if this was true or not. I have my doubts about the accuracy and validity of that story.

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February 5, 2009

AmyV

Gompertz –

This shows a huge difference between the generations. Teenage pregnancies are also a very highly debatable issue as to types of prevention.

As for the sacraments. I think there are 7. Excuse me if I am wrong. However, I can only come up with about three off the top of my head. Terrible for us Catholics I know:

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February 5, 2009

gompertz

Good morning Amy and Phil, this is way too early to get up, and soon I’ll be out the door, business that needs to be taken care of, etc. I promise to stay away from the subject of theology especially when it relates to the kind of thing the nuns would have beat me for. Est-ce que les filles de catholique sont vraiment bonnes? Je doute qu’elles soient.
Which brings me to the article by Jason Geary in the Ledger, I clicked on where it said Re: Link, and what do you know, there it was! The pictures of April Cooper and Kayla Hassel were interesting. Kayla’s tears look real, unless she has learned to be a better actress since that last interview. I was surprised how totally different Ms Cooper looked from the previous pictures. At that age kids grow up fast, but still it was amazing, I would not have recognized her. Yes, she put on a lot of weight in a short time and would probably have a lot more power in those punches today. Not looking at all contrite. Yes, times have changed and not for the better. It remains to be seen whether the toxic social environment in which she and the others are living will provide validation for her behavior and encourage her to continue on the path she is on. If so, we may be hearing about her again soon.

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February 5, 2009

Phil

Bonjour gomp
Quel vous avez dit est tres vrai ,mais
les filles de cathloique etaient tout bonnes filles .C’etait un grave erreur
d’avoir un condem.

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February 5, 2009

Garland

I think that the news about Victoria being pregnant was just all rumors to begin with. No official proof of it.

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February 5, 2009

Sarto

Gompertz,

Just a word of defense for the nuns I have known. With one exception, I never saw a nun being violent to anybody, and that poor woman was in the middle of a nervous breakdown.

They would send these young women, barely out of highschool and with only limited teaching skills, to preside over classes with up to sixty children. It was also a time when the teachers in public schools were violent, as the old stories about principals with paddle boards would attest.

I taught for many years and discovered that my personality began to crumble when the classes got to be over thirty. You had to be Hitler or perish. So, if you have bad memories about nuns, try to remember how big the classes were. With good intentions but with poor understanding, the church took advantage of those women. No wonder so many of them got out of teaching as soon as they could.

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February 5, 2009

Phil

Sarto
my father was taught by nuns .Thier actions were so cruel that to say they in any way represented a good and kind god is a travesty .Those that do evil while putting on the cloak of rightgesnous are the worst of humanity

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February 5, 2009

Amyv

Phil,

I believe Gompertz and myself have talked about our experiences with nuns. Excuse me Gompertz if I am wrong. The ones I had for teacers were anything but kind. Quite the opposite. Although I never had one hit me I saw them wrap the knuckles with a ruler of many young boys. We were terrfied of these people. Although, one was what you would picture a nun should be like. Kind and sweet. She was very soft spoken and would always listen to you when needed. I guess like every other profession their are good as well as bad.

We did have a very wonderful and forgiving Irish Catholic priest. He had a good sense of humor and even when we behaved badly laughed and told us we should no better.

I know even in this case he would show nothing but compassion and forgiveness for even the ringleader.

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February 5, 2009

Phil

Sorry for the religeous take guys , Its so cold here today that me and my friend were trying to come up with how many ways you can use ice .
its not just for making igloos you know
-23 today , as cold as AC heart ,so Amy and Scott a big snowball for you . Sarto did not mean to insult .

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February 5, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

I to have looked at the pictures on the ledger. Perhaps I can offer a womans point of view. I maybe be very wrong but sometimes woman can spot things on other woman that men can not. Although these girls are not women yet.

I doubted Kayla’s sincerity very much at the time of her taped interview. I still doubt that part to this day. However, I believe her tears are real. I do not believe they are forced. If I am right I see sadness in her face and a true look of remorse. Maybe she has already changed from this experience. I hope so anyway.

April on the other hand still remains stoic and hardened looking. I do not see much in the way of true emotion from her. I do believe she will be one of the most likely to offend again. This is a shame since she is the youngest. She is a rough looking girl.

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February 5, 2009

GregS

All these letters will do is teach them how to fake remorsefulness, it will probably make them even more dangerous. I don’t think anyone thinks this letter is going to be genuine remorse.

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February 5, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Should we always feel sorry for you because of your plight with bad weather. Ducking that snowball 🙂 Perhaps you will feel better when it is 100 degrees down here and me and my friend are trying to come up with 100 ways to melt an ice cube in order to find relief from the extreme heat.

Also Sarto you are right there are always many people who deserve our respect. Many nuns are included in this comment.

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February 5, 2009

gompertz

Sarto, i refuse to believe that you could ever be anything like that awful man you mentioned (AH). As usual you strive for a fair and balanced perspective. Not all nuns were brutal, and it is good to point that out. We have to remember that in the 50s nuns and priests had a monopoly on violence, while today the pendulum has shifted with teachers often being victims. It was considered natural and right for teachers to use physical means to enforce discipline, and they got results that would be the envy of school officials today. Teachers expected to be obeyed and the students were docile (and perhaps intimidated) even if the classes were large. At least, that’s how it was in the schools my friends and I attended. I didn’t mind the occasional beating (or usually just a slap) if it was administered because I was unruly, because I recognized the need for law and order. For me, the trouble began when hitting became a substitute for reasoned discussion. And that happened too often. When I was told that God was the supreme being who created everything, I asked whether , God being omnipotent, He could create a being greater than himself. That cost me a beating and a trip to the principal’s office. Or try to have a rational argument about evolution, even if it was the mitigated non-Darwinian kind. But I could go on and on with examples. To me it seemed that the Inquisition was in full swing. And this feeling was not diminished by the fact that not all priests and nuns reacted with violence. I have to recall with sadness that the idyllic 50s were times of intolerance. Fraternizing with non-Catholics was discouraged and sometimes forbidden. And girls who were “tomboys” suffered verbal abuse and humiliation from the nuns who had very clear ideas of how a young lady should behave. (I guess that’s one reason I have such a hard time adjusting to today’s totally different standards of male-female roles.)
What we are dealing with is a social revolution that separates the days of my childhood from the present in a decisive rupture. For me there is no continuity, no smooth transition from that time to the present. Each era has its positives and negatives and we cannot judge one period by the standards of the other. When I recall the beatings I received from those nuns I understand that they were trying to do the right thing for the children under their care, and it is with a touch of wistfulness that I refer to those childhood days.

I believe your appraisal of Mercades is very plausible. The kind of fluctuations between extremes of kindness and cruelty, the uncomfortable coexistence of poetic sensibility with cold indifference, are a matter of record, no matter how some of us (including myself) have tried to interpret her behavior in the most favorable possible light. I wonder, though, whether this union of contradictory character traits is so unusual. Freud thought the description was especially applicable to the Russian people, as exemplified by Ivan the Terrible who could swing from murder to repentance and back in the twinkling of an eye. The historian A.J.P. Taylor thought the Germans could be described as a people who exhibited angelic and demonic traits at the same time, in the same individual. I think that the attempt to characterize a whole nation or race like that is ill-advised. Still, such dualities are a fact of life and I think it is part of a healthy personality to reconcile the disparate aspects of our nature. Those who come to terms with their internal contradictions survive, those who cannot do so perish. I see those contradictions in Mercades. Whether she will succeed in overcoming those contradictions and achieving the integrated personality of a survivor I can’t tell.

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February 5, 2009

gompertz

Amy- I agree with your appraisal of Kayla and April. Kayla looks really sincere and remorseful. It must have brought some joy to the Lindsay family that at least one of the perpetrators had a contrite heart and reached out with expressions of repentance. April looks like she grew some more and is probably physically stronger than ten months ago, but it doesn’t look like she developed any capacity for kindness and understanding. While appearances can deceive, I don’t think we misread April’s true feelings here. I think it’s significant that nothing was said about any gesture of apology from April. I guess that the absence of an apology is preferable to an apology that is insincere. But it is sad that this girl seems to have remained stuck in her hostility and it now looks probable that she really approves of her attorney’s brutal tactics. Yes, I really find it disappointing, and I don’t get my hopes up that we will see any more softening in the attitudes of the others. Sadder still is the prospect of seeing a substantial number of people in Lakeland encouraging them to continue on their ruinous course.

As for Victoria, it is too early to tell but right now she seems determined to pursue a course devoid of hope. Whatever the perpetrators do, their future is of secondary importance. Maybe they will be happy to disappear into the limited world of Lakeland and fritter away their lives in frivolous pursuits. It’s up to them. I do wish them well. But my hopes are for Victoria to reconcile with her family and start getting serious about education and a career. She has a lot of good people praying for her to succeed and that is an advantage that maybe her attackers don’t have.
Now I’d like to say a lot more but I’m feeling very very sleepy and when that drowsy feeling comes it’s better to sign off for the night. And I won’t complain about the cold and the ice and snow, but I swear I just saw a herd of wooly mammoths heading down from up north.
And I heard them speaking French.

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February 6, 2009

Phil

Gomp
considering the senteces that have been given , the types of post you have been giving has more meaning today then when the debate was on who should get what . Your last post recognizing Mercades cruelity is what I have been looking from you . I did not know if you truly had seen it and somehow it was impotant to me that you have .
Seeing Kayla and Victoria’s Mother was rewarding to me and did soften the proscecutors heart . It would have been nice to see victoria there as well but we should all remember that just because Victoria’s Mom wants to give out the hugs does not mean we should think less of Victoria if she does not . As hard as it must of been for her to watch the tape . Victoria felt each bretayal packed blow where the only respite was the worst verble abuse friends could give . If Victoria never looks back , never gives anyone of these girls the time of day ever . I would not think one bit less of her then right now . If sh does go the route of her step mom then i will think more of her then i do right now.

The wooly mamoths heady south speaking french was absolutly hilarious or as the french say c’etait TRES DROLE. I was sending them to Flordia each with a snowball for Scott and Amy . , Since Amy seems tired of my whining about the weather ,Hers has alot of extra ice in hers which I am sure she will know what to do with .

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February 6, 2009

Scott

Amy, I am pleased to see you come around a bit on Kayla. Her emotions at the courthouse seem sincere. And she looks very shaken. We must remember that it couldn’t have been easy for Kayla and the other girls to be sent hate mail, death threats and lots of online insults from people around the world. Those girls were very wrong to harm Tori. But others are wrong to threaten them.

As for April she is only 15 and she has time on her side to change her life for the better. But she was already on probation at the time she assaulted Tori so she is heading down the wrong path at this time. I hope counseling helps April as well as community service. But I have no idea what court ordred restitution she can offer Tori. All of the girls should have to pay restitution to Tori not just April.

Gomp, like you I also hope Tori reconciles with her family and goes on to college. She has smarts she graduated high school a year early. But Tori makes some bad decisions. Most people do. But’s imperative Tori learns from her mistakes. And it’s dissapointing to know that with 3 younger siblings at home Tori is not in touch with her family. 🙁

Phil, Kayla won me over a bit too with her seemingly genuine emotion shown in court. It is easier to forgive someone if you know they realize they were wrong and they say I am sorry to the party they offended.

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February 6, 2009

gompertz

Phil, It’s been reported that some people in Polk County felt the wooly mammoths were disrespectful and tried to lure them to Lakeland to give them an attitude adjustment. The mammoths, though, had read our comments and were wise to those tricks so they took an alternate route. They were then arrested by the sheriff and charged with some misdemeanors but accepted a plea deal and only had to write letters of apology to the Florida Citrus Growers Association for trampling the crops. Everyone soon forgot about it, except for Ashley Judd who continues to blame Sara Palin for everything.

Sorry if my levity seems out of place, but sarcasm and silly jokes help me to deal with a sad situation like this. And after all the speculation about who is the ringleader and what specific punishment each should get, we are left with another failure of the law enforcement authorities to do the right thing. It’s always been true that murderers go free while a poor peasant is harshly punished for stealing a loaf of bread. Nothing new here, but how long can we keep taking refuge in humor and false hopes that maybe next time the justice system will get it right.
Scott, it’s true that April or the others could change but in the absence of any incentive, they might continue on their present path. Maybe having a baby will help Ms Hardcastle to become more responsible, and there is no reason to believe at this point that she couldn’t be a good mother. Time will tell.

I think what Victoria needs now is the support of family and friends. I just reread the posts on Topix from June 2, graduation time, and the comment that implied Victoria is feeling just fine and doesn’t care. To me that looks like all the more reason to be concerned. That sounds typical of people who are in denial and have lost touch with their feelings. And even in these “enlightened” times a prodigal daughter is more vulnerable than a prodigal son to all sorts of exploitation. So now more than ever her family and friends must make every effort to reestablish contact with her, even if she outwardly resists those efforts.

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February 6, 2009

Electronica

sarto why did you say im amoral.

and ppl i said long ago maybe kaylas real sorry and i was right but no one listens to me.

and i read april and kayla gonne be punished as juviniles thats good it was stupid when they said they were like adults. and kayla could get one year and april two years so idk why ppl think thas too easy on them thats a real long time. i say give kayla just like three weeks in a juvie and not a prison juvie just a jail juvie and dont let her get beat up she alerady sorry and means it too so why be so hard on her.

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February 6, 2009

Scott

Gomp, if it’s Wooly Mammoths against the Fighting 5 of Lakeland I’ll take the Fighting 5. ) And don’t get me started on Ashley Judd. Ugh. I love animals too and wish Alaska didn’t have to hunt wolves. But wolves need to be controlled in a strong populations like in Alaska otherwise those wolves in Alaska for example which hunt in groups devastate other populations of animals including deer, bobcat, lynx and mountain lions especially mountain lion kittens. As far as I’m concerned Ashley Judd can take her millinaire ass up to Alaska and shoott some wolves with a drart gun and have them relocated. But I doubt the state of Alaska can afford to do that.

Electronica, Kayla and April will not do jail time of any kind. No even juvenile detention. Why? Because Tori doesn’t want either of those young girls in jail. As mad as April still seems to be and looks can be deceiving she won’t do jail time because Tori and her parents bailed her out as well as the othe girls.

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February 6, 2009

gompertz

Scott, I think those cute wolves should be relocated to the Hollywood hills and see how the tinseltown elitists like it.
The Lindsays showed compassion and apparently Kayla understands that. If the others continue to mistake the Lindsays’ kindness for weakness they might think they can afford to gloat now but it will hurt them in the long run. Victoria’s problems would be troubling to any parent and Mr Lindsay is rightly concerned. But the compassion she and her parents showed will set them free and hopefully will give them the strength to overcome all obstacles.

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February 7, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

You are truly on a roll. Despite such a serious subject you gave me a much needed laugh this morning. At the end of our ‘graduating class’ you, the philosopher have some how graduated to class clown. I look forward to our most northern friend’s take on this.

As I have been leery of others so shall I be of comments made by Unknown on Topix. Since none of us has a crystal ball that will let us see who we are talking to I have small reservations. Just as I have of comments made about some of the comments made about the defendants.

Perhaps Victoria has had a rough time this year. Who could blame her. She suffered through a terrile ordeal which may take her sometime to deal with let alone over come. Yes, I would like to see all of these girls further their education. This is a big importance to me especially with our economy. However, even without this incident not ever teenager knows what path they wish to choose for a career. So taking some time off before jumping in may be well advised.

As for Ashley Judd well I won’t even go there.
I have tryed to send you e-mail. Keeps getting sent back.

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February 7, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

Please try to ignore comments you feel are meant to hurt your feelings. I believe you pointed this out to me once.

You as I have said before would be the best representative for a jury of there peers. You are much closer to their ages. You also know what is it like to grow up as a teenager in this generation.

You have defended Kayla all of this time and have shown a willingness to look past the crime that we have all not been able to do. Perhaps you are the one most like Victora. Willing to show mercy to those who showed none.

So thank you Electronica for showing me that everything is not black and white. Yes they deserve to be punished. I really do not think any of these girls will serve jail time. Except perhaps B.H.

Hope all is going well for you and I do not sound to much like a mother. But that is what I am. Perhaps some of the men on here are trying to give fatherly advice. However, we know that is not what you are looking for or really do not need.

e more a jury of these girls peers as you are far closer to their ages and know what being a teenager now means.

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February 7, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

As always short and to the point. Also very funny. How do you do that? As you can see I have done a total turn around on the one I have refered to as the ‘little one’. Never for the cruelness she showed but for her seemingly true show of remorse.

Hopefullly we will see some of the others do so as well. As I have already said I have not seen this from A.C. or Mrs. R. I agree none of these girls will see any jail time. No forced letter is enough to show remorse. We will just have to see further actions. What do you make of Victoria’s lack of appearances at these sentencings? I think she just wants the whole thing behind her. Perhaps this is what is best for her at this time. I am not sure I would want to see these girls if I were her.

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February 7, 2009

Amyv

Oops. Sorry I meant to say B.H. I have a cold and am very tired this morning. This is what Phil does not understand about southern weather. Cold and hot do not always add up to a beautiful climate. Sometimes can just make you sick if to close together. I know no sympathy. Now who is whining. However you are right I have been in snow and if I threw on at you right now it would be more packed like ice than snow. lol.

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February 7, 2009

gompertz

Amy, I don’t know why emails get sent back, but as I said before, cyberspace is a pretty weird and unfamiliar environment and even the experts don’t have all the answers. For example, one thing I found is that for certain people I have to copy and paste their email address, because when I key it in it doesn’t get there. Don’t know why…

About Unknown, I have no doubts that it’s really Patrick Lindsay. I don’t think you have to see people face to face to know who they really are. No one could have faked the pain and sorrow that Unknown expressed when talking about Victoria. Those were the words of a father whose heart has been broken because of all that has happened and aches to be reconciled with his wayward child. Last night I reread some earlier comments by Unknown going back to May and June and now I see clearly what I had not seen when I assumed Unknown was a distant relative. Everything that had seemed enigmatic and inscrutable now makes sense. Only a parent could have expressed the things that were said there. And yet, I never suspected the truth. Now when I read the words of Unknown and understand that it is Patrick LIndsay it makes me more aware of the enormity of the crime that was committed, and that acts of violence affect more than the immediate victim. I believe that the Lindsays are truly compassionate people and deserve our continued support. The court case is just about over but the pain goes on.

It might be that Victoria will grow out of her present phase, but with the notoriety of this case it will be more difficult than if the video were not out there. For Victoria and the others the infamy attached to this case imposes some serious additional challenges and it’s no longer just a case of normal teenage angst that kids go through and then move on. Victoria’s problems are different from those of her attackers and while they can escape into the shelter of their local community, Victoria cannot. She seems to be searching for something out there and we don’t know if she is on the right track or running away in the wrong direction. Let’s hope and pray that she gives her family and friends a chance to guide her on the way.

Amy, I think your answer to Electronica was great and showed a lot of wisdom.

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February 7, 2009

Scott

Amy, I’m glad you enjoy my posts and humour. The humour part comes naturally to me although some people find my himour a tad annoying.

Amy, I am concerned about Tori and how she is laying low in all of this. I hope she is just waiting for this case to be over so she can move on. But I do fear that she is depressed and if her biological mother had a drinking problem while she was carrying Tori like I had readthen Tori may think a life of alcohol and worse is natural for her. I hope that’s not the case. But all the reports of Tori partying it up last summer are concerning. I hope they are false but you never know. Maybe she needs some time to clear her head an come back strong.

Gomp, I would love for Alaska’s wolves and alot of other things like our terrorist prisoners that the Hollywood crowd wants set free to end up in Hollywood, California. ) And Gomp it’s so true about the Victoria Lindsay case is almost over but the pain lingers on. I just hope it fades away in time so Tori can make the most out of life and be happy.

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February 7, 2009

Phil

Hi Scott
We here have never found your humor annoying your himour
however needs work (LOL),
As I have said before the way you can say so much with so few words has enriched this fourm greatly.

This case ito me is now just freakin insane ,.That no jail time served for thier actionn is senseless and if reports are true the only one that may serve time is pregnent . I have an easier time sending an unpregnent BH to jail for 4 years then a pregnent BH to jail for 5 months . The reason being what’s the point , why risk the baby in a jail atmosphere for a token gesture of toughness by the SAO .Why not just continue her grounding for the being a bad girl . We can see how effectual this grounding was if the perps have time to plan a family (sarcasim).I looked at those pictures crying as she hugged Talesia and the one right after on more then one occassion to finally see the some humanity from the animals that were on the video . was soothing to the rage .and you know helps the healing process for victoria and her family . . It also helped all of us, society in general who were stunned ,outraged and bewieldered . knowning perhaps these young women may understand what they did . It also must have helped Kayla Hassals the most of all . To make such a genuine apology directly to the Victims family and the grace of the acceptense had to be more theroputic then the slap on the wrist given by the state. .
I do not know how many more post I will be doing .My role here defined even by me was to continually proof thier guit and to demand strong sentenes, .I find the aftermath of this case is like trying to find something good to say just because, there is nothing else to say

To Everyone ,especially Scott ,Gomp . Thank-you for allowing me the pleasure of sharing ideas and opinions . . You are two are made of the finest of stuff . To Electronics ,.You are a credit to your communnity and you should be proud of your role in this fourm and I hope the rest of the teenaged world has your “amoral ” attiude . that would truley give me hope for the world that my son will have to live in . To My partner
and lead chair AmyV . This battle we lost but an honour to have had you on my side . I do not think there was one post of ours that differed . Thank -you for every thing we have shared .Since it has finally moved above freezing i think i will start up the Barbecue and recall those mamoths and snowballs . The best of luck to you all and healing to all those and thier families that were in the rm on March 30th

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February 7, 2009

gompertz

Hi Phil, today was shirt-sleeve weather in NY, over 40 degrees and the wooly mammoths have returned home to the frozen North. I hope they made it through Customs at the border with no problem.

Sad to think that things are wrapping up here. There’s still the sentencing and maybe the judge will develop a backbone and impose the maximum the law allows. LOL, don’t hold your breath.

Still I say this is not over and in a way it never will be over, because like the butterfly that flaps its wings in Beijing causing hurricanes in Mexico, the ripples keep expanding to infinity. So the prosecutors didn’t lose, they just moved to a higher level. In the end there is a Day of Judgment and the righteous will bear witness against the perpetrators of evil, even if the end can’t be measured in our mortal time scale and the Judge is beyond our grasp. So don’t go too far away, there’s plenty of work to do for a few good prosecutors. Hope to hear from you soon.

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February 7, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

O.K. Gompertz don’t mean to brag but today was
around 75 degrees beach weather down south. Not warm enough for us southeners to go in the water though 🙂 Has to be at least 80 degrees for that.

I think this judge has already shown what kind of back bone he has. None. I see no reason to believe sentencing will be anything other than what the minimum allows. Don’t want to get things started again. We all agree that B.H. was the worst. Of course differing opinions on the roles of the others.

Would it be fair or would justice be done if she alone took the full responsibility? I am to the point where it would be almost an injustice to see the only harsh punishment handed down to one. Does that do justice to this case? I don’t think so. What will that teach our society? O.K. as long as you were not the one who hit the hardest or threw the most punches here is your slap on the wrist. Lets let only one of you be judged with no mercy even though we have shown so much to the others. Is that not what happened to Victoria?

I am not going back on my prior statements on Kayla but all of them should have taken much more responsibilty from the very beginning. I personally thought the forced apology letters were in no way beneficial to any of these girls. Especialy Victoria. These are not kids in preschool.

I have no intention of ever watching this tape again. I have not for quite sometime. That will just bring back all of those feelings of anger that have obviously not helped the victim in this case at all.

Sorry Gomp and everyone else I will just never understand the legal system. Not if this is justice. I will never understand how you can commit a crime on tape and still not be punished. Although I will not give up trying as Phil said to make this world a better place for my daughter to live in.

If their is another case in need of a prosecutor please let me know 🙂 However since if I was part of the prosecution on this one I did not get the victim justice in the end. I for one will not be to far away.

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February 8, 2009

Scott

Hi Phil our friend from the north. I think the word you used “senseless” aptly describes both the attack in Tori and the dubious legal outcomes in this case especially for Hardcastle the most violent and torturous to Tori of the girls.

Don’t expect backbone from the judge, Gomp. Now way any of the girls will do time even though a couple of them should.

That’s right Amy it’s still too cool in Florida to take a dip. ) Amy you are right that apology letters are for preschoolers. LOL!

And Amy justice was not served in the Victoria Lindsay assault case. I believe you felt this would happen all along even though the crimes against Tori were caught on video. Can you imagine what the sentences for the girls would have been if there was no video? There probably wouldn’t have even been a case.

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February 8, 2009

Electronica

amy ok. and amy and phil thanks. gn.

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February 8, 2009

gompertz

Amy, we will never understand the legal system as long as we delude ourselves into thinking it has anything to do with justice for victims. It comes down to power, money and legal technicalities. And of course it’s not about what’s fair. So I’m not surprised that the case turned out like it did. Still, we can hold out hope that some more of the perpetrators will come around and apologize the way Kayla did. Some may be slower than others but maybe they’ll get there eventually and feel remorse.
Also we don’t know the minds of these people and while it is easy to be cynical about Ms Hardcastle and say she got pregnant just to stay out of jail, it might not be like that. We can imagine anything we want, so how about this: Let’s say maybe she felt so devastated by all the insults she received that she felt the need to have a relationship just to prove that she could be attractive. Or maybe she decided a baby would help her get past the chaos and find some stability. There are all sorts of possibilities. And then again maybe the insults didn’t bother her and maybe she found them amusing. There is much we don’t know and maybe we never will. Anyway there is no reason to assume the worst. Also we don’t know whether any of them are worried about the possibility of not going to college. There are many women who have jobs like hairdresser, librarian, crossing guard, and they pay the bills and raise families. Many are single mothers and they live good decent lives and raise good children. We can’t say in advance what the future holds for any of these young women but I wish them well.

Let us hope that Victoria will get past the present difficult times with no permanent physical or emotional scars . I understand her father’s grief and if she has real friends they will help her to be reconciled with her family. Life has terrible shocks for everyone and it takes time to understand how the good and the bad combine to form a meaningful whole. Jacques Lacan said “Madness is a discourse in search of an interpretation.” The senseless violence that happened to Victoria was like that, it was like the discourse of a madman which has to be given an interpretation. Right now Victoria probably just wants to forget the whole thing. Sooner or later she has to confront it and deal with it, because it really happened. Not that it’s supposed to make sense. What happened was evil and evil never makes sense. When the madman’s words are given an interpretation he doesn’t stop being a madman. What happens when we give the senseless event an interpretation, though, is that we can see it in perspective. It’s still senseless, but we see it in relation to the rest of life and then it doesn’t loom so large and menacing any more. One day I hope Victoria can look at that day and that video and see that the horror of it doesn’t compare to the joy and beauty of life when both the evil and the good are viewed together. Victoria is lucky to have friends and family to help her come to terms with it all.

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February 8, 2009

gompertz

Phil- I just wanted to say again with emphasis that it isn’t over and the prosecution over here didn’t lose but the prosecution down in Bartow lost big time. On Topix they are still posting on the Audio Terrorism thread and there are people in Lakeland and surrounding communities who are not happy with noise and traffic and lack of police response. Now with the SAO becoming a laughingstock because of the soft sentences here, they may find the public even more hostile. SAO lost but I wouldn’t call Victoria a loser because of it. She was a winner on March 30 and the others were losers. Although for some that may not be apparent at this time.

As for Mercades, yes, I finally admit that I see cruelty in her behavior in the video. It’s the kind of cruelty of the kid who lets his pet fish or hamster die of starvation because he neglects to feed them. And then again maybe it’s a worse kind of cruelty than that kind of negligence. I still don’t think the prior case with the BF shows cruelty. What I see there is what I’ve always seen, a case of a lovesick girl who couldn’t let go. And that shows emotions out of control but not cruelty. I agree with Sarto that she seems to be a complicated person capable of going to extremes and being very emotional. And I know it’s dangerous to generalize on the basis of my own experience but I can’t help but be reminded of the girls I knew long ago. The ones who were unpredictable and very emotional, and sometimes a bit aggressive, were the ones I found most interesting. Ah, the memories….

Scott- I wish you could take all the stuff I just said and sum it up in one of your elegant and pithy comments about one tenth of the length of mine.

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February 9, 2009

gompertz

I’m going to try to emulate Scott and be succinct with this.
Is it possible Kayla was the first to apologize because she is the one who hurt Victoria the least? The others seem to have a heavier burden of guilt to deal with and it could take more time for them to come to terms with it.

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February 9, 2009

Scott

Great last post Gomp. No I can’t sum it up in one short paragraph. )

We all know all the girls enjoyed Tori’s beatdown and the video proves that. They wanted to show off what they did to Tori who was popular in high school. Now they are getting off lightly and being able to hide behind their attornies and the judge. It isn’t right. Those girls whould have to publicly apologize to Tori and the community they live in. It’s the least they can do. But they don’t even have to do that. It is hard to believe the SAO took nearly a year to come up with sentences they could have handed out last summer. The SAO dropped the ball here all the way around.

Where did Judd go? Where did Christina go?

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February 9, 2009

Phil

Gomp .
nearly a year and they don’t know if they are sorry .
Sorry not buying it .the more you did the easier it should be ,
April had the same opprutunity as Kayla and more reason to take advantage of the oppurtunity to do so . April’s reputaion would have benifited by the same action but mayby AC is not un happy with her reputation she has

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February 9, 2009

Sarto

Electronica–

I came back to the thread briefly and saw your question: Why do I say you are amoral? This caused me to ask myself a serious question. I deal with about 300 students a week, ages from 18-24, and I try always to treat them with respect. I try to take them where they are, and I try to see the hope they offer for the future.

I went back and read all your comments on this thread and I apologize because I do not think I treated you with that same kind of respect. By coming in and out of the thread, I have not followed the whole discussion. And so I came across some of your comments without reading above or below. This put them out of context and I missed the big picture.

Having tried to do that, I now look at you with admiration. You remind me of the many students I deal with each week: A sense of your own worth, the willingness to stick your neck out, an effort to be fair, the ability to sort out some complicated issues.

One of the things my students have trouble doing is admitting that some things are just wrong, period. There is no room for good intentions, or for a vote, or even for much of a debate.

For instance, I think of something that happened here last year: A guy raped and murdered his girl friend. I heard one of my students say, “Well, I won’t put him down. Maybe he had his reasons.” I call that amoral thinking, and I am sorry I accused you of that kind of thinking when a long rereading of your sometimes courageous remarks shows that you are trying to sort the Tori episode out much more clearly than that.

Anyway, it was interesting to reread this whole thing from your point of view. Keep on blogging.

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February 10, 2009

gompertz

Phil, is it really true that the more you did the easier it is to apologize? Maybe, sometimes. But here’s another way of looking at it. Say somebody slams into another car causing a fender bender. Now take the second case where somebody slams into another car killing a whole family. Which would be easier to forgive? For the victim it would be much easier to get over a minor accident than one that caused injury or death. Wouldn’t it be the same for the one who caused the accident? What would I say if I woke from a drunken stupor to find I had killed a man’s wife and kids? “Gee, sorry about that, but you know, these things happen…”

Apparently some of these people still haven’t awakened but maybe they will someday, maybe long after those letters of apology have been stuck in some drawer and been forgotten.

Scott- when you ask where is Judd, I guess you’re asking about the Sheriff. Nowadays he is a lot less visible than Ashley Judd. As for Christina, I’m sure the ordeal was very stressful and she is probably trying not to think about the whole thing and the same for everyone else caught up in this, including Victoria, who said as much in her GMA interview. Victoria said she tries not to think about it but also that she wants to find out what it was all about. That represents two different stages of the healing process and that takes time.

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February 10, 2009

Phil

Ok Gomp
.I would agree if as in your scenario it meant getting caught or getting away with it ,AC was caught and the sentence given .The oppurinity was there to do what Kayla did .Legally they my have had an excuse before ,not anymore . What would it have cost April with or without tears To say I am sorry Telsia for what I put you through . It would have benifited April more then Victoria

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February 10, 2009

Amyv

Sarto –

Although I have no right to speak for her thank you for realizing Electronica for what I see in her. A teenager trying to make good decisions and faced with more difficult situations then we were. She has proved far wiser than her years. Even if at times we did not understand and became frustrated she hung in there. I think that shows a lot.

Phil – Once again I agree with you. I to feel April showed no signs of remorse. I to am not so sure this girl is not still some what proud of her actions. She still looks so angry to me. Although others could interprete it differently. I think, hope I’m wrong this one is headed for more trouble in the future.

Scott – When everyone was talking about how rough we our on teenage violence in Florida I knew this was not true. I was hoping this behavior could be somewhat detered from this beating and video. The court system failed. The one good thing that may have come out of this horrible violence is perhaps the passing of new laws. To post this on the internet should be a crime. As should be any form of fighting.

So if Patrick Lindsay is true to his word he stated he was going to go after you tube and myspace. Not his exact words however close enough. I hope he can support his daughter by lobbying her case to politicians in Tallahassee and beyond. I would surely support his efforts. I have heard no more about this however. Anyone who goes on Topix could you please ask him about this. Thank you.

Gompertz –

Each one of these girls played a different role in this attack. Just as each of us has played a different role in our judgements. It is truly hard to say which one of these girls commited the worst offense. By law that would easily be handed to B.H.

However what Mercades did to her friend Victoria can not be measured by these standards. Unfortunately it is not a crime to be a traitor against your good friend. Yet to me her offense was the most inexcusable. By far the hardest I would believe for Victoria to understand and overcome.

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February 10, 2009

gompertz

Amy- It looks like Youtube has learned its lesson and the really violent videos have been removed. It has more or less been living up to its rule of not posting anything that would be offensive or humiliating to anyone. Still those videos are appearing on many other sites, and policing the Internet is a difficult job. I think Myspace is easier to oversee because easier to identify people by their myspace accounts.

I agree about Ms Cooper appearing cold and remorseless and feeling that she did the right thing. She probably gets a lot of support from her peers and the idea that the victim had it coming is most likely the prevailing view. If she is immersed in that kind of environment there will be no incentive for her to alter her present state of mind. I also agree that betrayal is the worst hurt of all. I doubt whether Victoria will forgive that so easily and right now she probably wants to focus on other things.

So it looks like the prosecutors didn’t get justice and those who hoped for reconciliation also didn’t get their wish.

Phil, I just think Kayla had a shorter road to travel to get to the remorse, the others have a long way to go and they may never start on that path unless life confronts them with some surprises that make them see things from a different perspective.

Right now it’s hard for us to find anything to cheer about as this mess comes to a conclusion. That’s because we are still too close to the events to see things clearly and the real significance of it all is yet to be shown by future developments. As Ho Chi MInh said it’s too early to tell.

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February 10, 2009

Scott

Gomp, I prefer sheriff Judd to Ashley Judd. ) And I agree with your view that Kayla had a shorter road to travel to get to remorse than the other girls did. It’s hard to read April. She looks icy cold and tough bu that could be an act of sorts. I hope it is and that she knows she did wrong to Tori.

Amy, just ice was not served in this case. The victim was abused during the assault and after the assault and her assault was caught on tape. This should have been an easy case to prosecute or accept tough plea deals. But they all got slaps on the wrists. Terrible job done by the SAO.

As for Mercades she tried to get Tori to leave then she gave the green light for her to be beaten and screamed at for a half an hour. Veru strange to figure that one out.

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February 10, 2009

gompertz

Scott, it’s very possible that Ms Cooper’s icy demeanor reflects the need for acceptance in a culture that encourages young people to act tough to gain respect. A change of scenery could do her a lot of good. Maybe a few years of college and some exposure to the ideas of the great philosophers will help her to see things differently.

As for Mercades, I think she is a very emotional person who can act in unpredictable ways. Emotions that our out of control can lead to disaster but those emotions can be directed in positive directions. Now that the legal threats have subsided, maybe she can get back to writing poetry and taking care of those little furry animals. And, oh yes, thinking about education.

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February 10, 2009

Phil

To Gomp ,AmmV and Scott
three excellent post.
Gomp you are right Kayla had the shortest road to travell .Bad parententing and legal council insured the road stayed long .

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February 10, 2009

Electronica

sarto ok and thank you. and amy thanks too.

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February 13, 2009

Scott

Gomp, April’s need to be accepted by the older girls certainly played a role in April being used to “hurt’ Tori as we heard the girls say on the videotape.

Today is Friday The 13th. The girls are lucky they are not being sentenced today. )

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February 13, 2009

gompertz

Scott, whatever sentence is handed out we know in advance it will not serve the needs for justice or correction. Only one of the five went to the Lindsays and apologized. What about the others? Do they still blame the victim? Do they persist in their belligerent attitudes and do they still believe that violence is the solution to problems? And are any of them thinking about their future? It would have been so much better if they had all been sentenced as juveniles and provision made for counseling and education. The State of Florida has shown neither concern for the victim nor concern for the rehabilitation of the accused. So whatever happens on sentencing day, nothing will have changed for the better as it might have if the courts really cared.

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February 13, 2009

Phil

there is a reason they are called Plea
“DEALS” I am sure the next victim of a beat down of such severity will rush forward to press charges knowing that the thugs will get grounded and god forbid write a letter of apology .
The shame and horror of these violent thugs who had to be home schooled)trying to remember the proper use of of a comma will indeed stop this from ocuring in the future .
Can you imagine being known as the one that used a run on sentence . This could follow these girls everwhere
As Mercades lookes up the meaning and spelling of betrayal we must remember that BH injured her hand punching the crap out of victoria so she at least is paying a just price . . this is serious punishment . Do you think it is easy for April to figure out how to insert giggle in a letter. this is real pain and anguish that the guilty have to face.
With BM does it gets even more murkey . the way she enjoyed herself I do not know if the letter should even be opened and certainly not read in front of children . So myself .i am very comfortable that the next bunch of thugs to be will see this as the deterent it is , I for one after watching those six in action doubted that any of them knew how to write .,

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February 13, 2009

Scott

Your last post says it all Gomp. Especially how the girls would have benfitted from being charged as juveniles instead of adults and how the SAO has shown no concern for the victim or the rehabilitation of her assailants. That is mindboggling since some of those girls have already shown a violent side. The arested girls needed counseling months ago not a year after the planned videotaped assault on Vicrotia Lindsay. The SAO screwed this whole case up. And they embarrassed Florida in the process.

As for the girls and their families having belligerent attitudes and blaming Tori I am sure they still believe that. Except for perhaps the Hassall’s who are the only one’s to even apologize to Tori and her parents.

Phil, you sum up these plea deals perfectly. How does the stupid SAO go from life in prison to light slaps on the wrist and waste everyone’s time especially Victoria’s for the last 11 months? It makes me wonder how those in the SAO even got their jobs. the crimes against Tori were caught on tape making it a slam dunk case.

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

This is from the Orlando Sentinel. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/southwe…

Totally unreal!

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

Here’s the same story from the Ledger
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090215/NEWS/90…

At last some insight into the real Mercades Nichols and possibly some vindication for my view of her. Sounds to me like a sensitive and caring person with too much trouble in her young life and she needs to find peace and tranquillity so she can develop her potential.

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February 15, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz –

I absolutely could not believe when I received an email about this article. How long has Mercades been subjected to this excuse for a mother? As I did For Victoria so shall I know due for Mercades.

Never does another human being have the right to lay a hand on anyone. Perhaps when she spoke of her inability to discipline her daugher because of Nana this is the actions she was implying. We have long stated the apple does not fall far from the tree. This indeed does shed some insight into why Mercades knows no other way to live.

The grandmother must step up the plate and take charge of these situations. Christina should lose all rights for the ability to raise her second child. To me just because Mercades is now 18, I feel this is child abuse. Also feel it was certainly not the first time. Although this will never be an excuse for Mercades behavior. That is inexcusable.

I have held my tongue against this womans accusations more times than I can count. No however I feel no need. She is a terrible mother. She is a money hungry witch. The only reason ‘poor’ Christina ever got involved in this was because she smelt money. Goodbye to the law suit and goodbye to the book deals.

She has used the crime against an innocent victim to gain nothing by monetary value. She has relentlessly bashed Victoria while claiming to stand beside her. She has used her daughter in a way that no mother could even conceive.

The question was asked. Where are Christina and Sheriff Judd now? Please allow me the opporunity to answer. Christina is behind bars. Sheriff Judd is probably the one afforded the right to put her there. Oh well. I GUESS IT WAS FROM THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF STRESS. Are you kidding me?

For this Gompertz I will say we must add another victim. Not to this case that is for Victoria alone. Christina is the culprit in this one. Mercades is the victim.

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

Amy, I agree you were right about Christina, and we were both right about Mercades. Maybe some good can come out of this if as you suggest Mary Nichols takes over responsibility. What Mercades and her little sister need is a stable home environment and Mary Nichols can provide that. Hopefully Mercades and Victoria can both move on after this and find peace and success, but whether they will ever reconcile after the event of March 30 is another question.

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

Oh, and I think it’s safe to say at this point, I was right when I said this isn’t over. Stay tuned, more to come…

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February 15, 2009

Scott

Gomp and Amy, the news of Christina Garcia being arrested for hitting her daughter Mercades is shocking and sad. 🙁 What must Christina’s 7 year old daughter think of this? She must be terrified at the news that her mother is in jail. And this is more stress for Mary Nichols which she doesn’t need.

You might be right Amy that Christina’s book deal is down the tubes after her arrest. Or can this pubilcity from it increase her public awareness and create interest for a book?

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

Scott, good point about how this new development could whet the appetite of the public for more. Who knows, maybe this will help Christina come to terms with here personal demons and get the help she needs. If the courts wouldn’t provide counseling for Mercades or the others, maybe they will for Christina. And maybe now the authorities will realize the seriousness of the situation and see that violence could still erupt at any time, and have second thoughts about the need for some sort of therapeutic intervention for all of accused.

Hey, I can always dream, right?

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February 15, 2009

Phil

I can’t believe it Christina called the cops on Mercades which could of meant serious jail time for breaking her probation agreement and a felony conviction that would stick and Christina was the agressor in this if the corrupt police of Polk County are to be believed .
This may also put and end to her lawsuit .

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February 15, 2009

gompertz

End of lawsuit is the least of her problems now.
As for Mercades, maybe she needs to let go of the things in her life that are holding her back. But it’s hard to take that first step.

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February 16, 2009

Scott

You can’t count on the aurthorities for anything worthwhile in this case. Unknown has stated on Topix that Tori or his family may be sued in this case. You can’t make it up.

Phil, maybe Christina thought a drastic measure was what Mercades needed which may be why she called the police on her. Of course like you pointed out if Mercades was arrested and convicted of assault with all the probabtion she has she could have ended up in jail. It’s all puzzling to me.

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February 16, 2009

Aaron Jefferson

There’s nothing puzzling about any of this. Look at all the pontification and superficial social study in this thread. Ridiculous. This is just how uneducated white trash is. A very large segment of our society fits this profile but they don’t get the publicity. Broken home, teenage child coasts through school learning nothing, physical violence among relatives, pettiness, jealousy, insecurity and chest pounding. Depression, addiction. Demands for respect without earning any. Misunderstanding of rights and responsibilities. A sense of entitlement, and when unfulfilled, victimization. Blaming. Can’t point out their own state on a map. “Street smart” = might makes right.

We have no system of “justice” to address these root causes. These are the 20% of society that take up 80% of its resources. Social drain. Economic drain. In the north, these people join unions. In the south, they go through the penal system. Either way, the result is generations stuck in neutral. The ancients had ways to deal with this in a way that improved society. We have political correctness. The disease will worsen, thanks to the bleeding hearts.

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February 16, 2009

gompertz

Yes, the “ancients” had ways of improving society. The games of the Coliseum, the methods of the Spartans, the widespread use of crucifixion as a behavior modification tool. No bleeding hearts back then. Wonderful.

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February 16, 2009

gompertz

And use of the term “white trash” provides an excellent social commentary. Now I’m enlightened.

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February 16, 2009

Phil

Gomp
are you saying the early Christians and other undesirables didn.t have it coming. Or are you suggesting mayby look at the factors that cause such things to happen and find solutions that are meaningful and just . I Think we should ask Mr “street smart jefferson “how he would decide which 20% and how he would deal with them.
We all know there are issues and unfairness Mr Jefferson but what you are saying has been tried mant times with disatrous results

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February 16, 2009

Electronica

this is sad. idk why ms. garcia was so mad at merc maybe merc said something stupid but why call the cops. i mean she doesnt trust them and says they didnt treat merc fair and i agree so why call them. if your on probation and your parents say you did something wrong you can get punished real bad rnd up in a juvie and thats family court its worse for merc she could do grownup jail. so i dont understand why she called the cops that was cold.

and i know she can beat merc but she shouldnt spit on her thats just wrong. and kicking isnt too good either you can hurt someone like that even if you dont mean to. thats why they put her in jail i guess.

and i feel sorry for merc i know ppl hate her and ppl think its good she got beat but thats not why i feel sorry for her that she got beat a bit.

look her mom doesnt like her now and wheres her dad. so mercs like an orphan now and not gonne see her sis anymore either. so its just her nana now. thats not right.

if i was merc id feel real bad now like how can she trust her mom ever again.

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February 16, 2009

gompertz

Phil, I am eager to learn what “root causes” we are supposed to examine. All I see is a list of symptoms and I sense a lot of unfocused anger. BTW on Deutsche Welle I just saw a report on the trials of Khmer Rouge officials who tortured and killed millions of Cambodians (at least 20% of the population, right?). Evidently the Khmer Rouge weren’t big fans of “pontification and superficial social study” either, but they knew how to deal with that 20%, didn’t they?

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February 16, 2009

gompertz

Electronica, did you see the new thread on Topix about the arrest of Christina? I think it’s sad that most commenters express a lot of hate against Mercades. She will have a tough time making a living with so many people against her. And good observation that Mercades is like an orphan now.
It’s very very sad.

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February 16, 2009

Amyv

Welcome to the blog Mr. Jefferson. Perhaps you have misunderstood the discussions on this topic. For “root causes” are what we are looking for. Does that make us bleeding hearts? In your view of things perhaps.

Many of us have spent this past year seeking justice for the victim. Does this mean justice should require the actions taken by the “ancients”? Perhaps further explaination is needed. How did that work out with the improvement of their societys? Why did this not carry through to future generations?

As for the someone being puzzled by these actions could you please enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of how “white trash” should be dealt with? Or would you consider this to be ridiculous a venture.

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February 16, 2009

Electronica

gomp i didnt but i see it now i agree ppl there hate merc. doesnt mean everyone hates her maybe some ppl who know her dont and theres always some nice ppl if shes nice to them theyll be nice to her i always said it isnt fair if ppl dont forgive her. but i think her moms got to forgive her too thats more importnant everyone needs a mom i mean if your young and dont have kids yet. so lots of ppl hate her and her own moms mad at her and called the cops on her it must be hard to be merc right now thats for sure.

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February 16, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

I have been accused on more than one ocassion of picking out one line and focusing on that alone. No Electronic she should not and can not beat Mercades. These are not rights afforded to a parent. There are far better ways to discipline a child.

As you stated kicking and spitting are wrong. So is any type of physical discipline. No matter what she may have felt or thought her daughter did to deserve this. Look at the child and look at the mother. Where do you think Mercades learned her behaviors? Although, once again, no excuse.
For Mercades showed her victim nothing to trust.

There is no explaination for why a woman who claims to fear for her daughter would assault her. There is no explaination for why a woman claims the police are corrupt yet calls on them. Their is only sadness that a daughter would cling to a mother who thinks of herself alone.

As Phil pointed out this would insure Mercades a trip to an adult prison. She is now 18 no longer a juvenille. For as I have stated I see Victoria as the true victim in all of this mess. So shall I state I see Mercades as a victim of her own mother.

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February 16, 2009

Electronica

amy im not saying she should beat merc but parents can beat their kids its the law i looked it up long time ago.

and i didnt know mercs 18 idk if that means she cant be hit anymore.

and i agree spitting and kicking is wrong i said so its not like spanking. im not saying spankings always right maybe never idk but lots of ppl think thats what parents have to do. but it can be pretty stupid once your a teenager so i really dont know.

anyways id rather my parents beat me than call the cops on me for nothing id be real hurt and mad if theyd done that just to get back at me for something silly.

and they had merc in adult jail before so it doesnt matter if shes 18 or not i think shed be in adult jail again so shes lucky her nana told the cops how it really was.

and i read merc said she didnt call the cops cause its her mom and had lots of stressers. so she loves her mom i think.

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February 16, 2009

Phil

Gomp The 20% quickly goes to 30% .or whoever else disagreees . Althoufg this is what happens when common sese leaves the judicila system , Mr Jefferson is right to be fustrated . Just exterme in his response .,How Christina could call the police on he own daughter unless she was hurt bad to put your own daughter in such peril
mercades has three years probation that could kave bbeen revoked

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February 16, 2009

Sarto

Now this whole sad story turns another page. Electronica, I have to disagree with the law that says parents can hit their kids. What defines spanking? Depends on the level of rage the parent is feeling. As a parent, I sometimes felt myself wild with rage, and it scared me. I did not trust myself to do any kind of spanking, and thanks to a good wife, found better ways. When I was a kid, my dad beat me and kicked me to within an inch of my life and I still deal with that all these years later. Please, parents, don’t beat or hit your kids.

You are right, Electronica. Mercades must feel like an orphan. Topix writers said some pretty nasty things about her grandmother, but Mercades needs to have that person around who just loves her. So, Nana continues to be the hero in my book.

This is a family in a desperate, desperate place. An inch from hell, and it just goes from bad to worse. I have decided to let go of any negativity I may have toward them and simply surround all the characters in this story with peaceful, loving, and prayerful thoughts.

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February 17, 2009

gompertz

Sarto, I agree that laws permitting spanking are wrong. Or at the very least, they are out of date. I remember a time when everyone, teachers, parents, and children, accepted the same uniform code of conduct, justified by a clearly defined set of principles. Everyone had a place in the hierarchy of values and knew the consequences of transgression. So if a child received a beating from parents or teachers, that child would understand the message that he had stepped beyond the limits defined by his position. Even those like myself who were inclined to question the legitimacy of authority obeyed because we realized that the system, though imperfect, yielded positive results.

Today the hierarchy of values has dissolved and there is no universally accepted standard which would justify enforcing obedience the old-fashioned way. Parents who think they can communicate with their children through violence are sadly mistaken. The child receives at best ambiguous messages and a beating will not clarify anything. A parent’s use of violence is no longer backed up by the old system of values and a child might be justified in interpreting it as a failure or weakness on the part of the parents.

We don’t know enough about the latest incident of violence to discuss it in a meaningful way. But I see no way to avoid the conclusion that something went very wrong and for me it was a shock. It is easy to fling about pejoratives and resort to superficial pronouncements about the sad state of society, as many have done, mostly on Topix. But I think those of us who have followed this case and who have supported Victoria Lindsay while trying to be generous in our assessment of all concerned will agree with the sentiments you have expressed about the need for peace and love. At the same time, I must add that this new and unexpected development might reflect a need for the court to reconsider and impose some further conditions on some of the plea agreements, such as counseling and anger management. Yet given their past performance I doubt that they will.

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February 17, 2009

Scott

I wonder what Victoria Lindsay thinks about all this with Christinand Mercades. And I also wonder what Tori thinks of the girls getting slaps on the wrist in this case. But we’ll never know what Tori is thinking because she never says anything.

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February 17, 2009

gompertz

Scott, all we have to go on are those few hints from the People interview and the GMA interview. But what she tells a reporter and what she really thinks may be two very different things. I wonder whether Victoria has come to terms with her own feelings about the whole thing yet but I doubt whether she has any warm fuzzy feelings about the ones who hurt her.

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February 17, 2009

Scott

Gomp, I wonder who Tori is most bitter with, Hardcastle who tortured Tori, Cooper who punked out Tori or Nichols who betrayed Tori. My guess is Mercades.

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February 17, 2009

gompertz

Scott, you’re probably right. Nothing hurts like being betrayed by someone you thought was your friend.

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February 17, 2009

Electronica

amy sarto gomp im not saying its ok to beat kids even just spank them but i dont know if its always wrong. its not that i dont care if its right or wrong i just dont know its hard to judge its not so easy to make up your mind about it. and sarto im sorry you got beat so bad that wasnt right. and yes her nana sounds nice and when she was in the court it was sad she was crying.

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February 17, 2009

Phil

Scott
definitaly Mercades .After Ac attacked her thats who she turned to only to find herself very alone
I wonder if there will ever be a book

I am sort of sorry about what happened to Mercades but it dosent change my view on what she did to her friend .curled up on the couch in her own place watching the torture of her friend whlie making sure the shelve wasn’t seriously injured .It still sickens me so sympathy for me is hard to come by .I wish I could say differently , that I was the better man . I think Mercades should be in jail for what she did and for what she didn’t do ,of couse it not right to attack anyone but sympathy is not an emotion that Mercades brings out in me . I am more shocked at Christina ,then any thing else .Was she trying to put her own kid in jail .

Is this the Karma that we were talking about the life sentence that will follow these girls . If this was not one of the six , It is not reported in the newspaer complete with the photo Of the “Ringleader ” .There will be no room for error for the guilty ‘ Every infraction they will be involved in will be reported . Although this may stir some much needed sympathy for Mecades . She at least had no intention of betraying her mother . Her mother on the other hand seemed to turn on Mercades . I wonder where I have seen that act before

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February 17, 2009

Amyv

Phil, Gomp and Scott-

I would assure you as a woman or girl as her case may be. Victoria’s hurt lies mainly with Mercades. Betrayal by a friend is a truly hurtful thing. Nothing can put into words how you measure this. So Mercades would not only be my guess but I know this must hurt far worse.

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February 18, 2009

Garland

Hi, guys. I have to agree with what Amy is saying. What was Christina thinking? Just when you thought that things couldn’t get any more worse than it already has. If Mercades was still 17, Christina would be in even more trouble than she already is. She would have child abuse charges being brought up on her, possibly have her other child taken away from her, among other things. And she mainly talks crap about Victoria &amp what she’s done? “Oh, I’m going to sue the sheriff &amp the department for making all of these false allegiations against me I’m going to go for a book deal Victoria is this &amp that,” etc., yet, she [b]herself[/b] gets arrested for abusing her own child. So now, we got the case of the abuser becoming the abused. It’s quite sad.

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February 18, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

I know it was never your intention to say you believe in a parent beating a child. For we all know this is wrong. Although I do agree with Phil it is difficult after watching Mercades actions to find much sympathy.

That is why I myself try to seperate the two events. Mercades should have gone to jail for her crimes. She showed no mercy for Victoria. How must Victoria have felt reaching out to Mercades desperately begging for help. The statement she made “Mercades your supposed to be my friend” was heart breaking.

Much has been said about the fact that Mercades never touched her therefore should be held less accountable. I have never found this to be true. I see nothing different or more promising in Mercades than I do in the others.

As for Christina Garcia her actions have always spoken for themselves. She does not raise her child. Raising her and having custody of her are two different things. She allowed Mercades lawyers to use the same tactics, bashing Victoria, while condemning April Coopers. Much was made of suing the sheriff and book deals. Why? Her daughter was in big trouble. Why would you ask for advice on how much of a cut you should recieve off of this crime? Because sadly Electronica this mother does not care.

If there were not witnesses to Christina beating her Christina would have lied her way out of this one. Blaming her own daughter as she has blamed Victoria from the start. This is by no means an example of being a good mother. Or a mother at all for that matter.

Their is discipling a child and their is child abuse. To many people in our society do not know the differents. Sarto’s story proves that point. He still has issues because of this to this day.

Electronica I hope you have kind and loving parents. You are an compassionate person and no matter what circumstances you are put in never forget that.

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February 18, 2009

Amyv

Hello Garland –

I believe Christina was thinking as she always has. Not in justice or fairness. She is thinking in green. I believe she has been building a case against the Polk County police from day one. Not because she cares about her name or certainly her daughters. She cares about the money and the money alone.

I do not know whether she continues to pursue this civil suit. If she does she is a fool along with many other things I will not say aloud. As far as a book deal if indeed any offers were on the table I am sure they are not now.

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March 7, 2009

Ame

Seriously. I don’t understand the turns this incident has taken. Would we be having the same discussion if Victoria had died from a brain aneurysm from such a beating? I think not. Do you know how easy it is to get an aneurysm from something like this? I just heard about the slaps on the wrist and I have to say I’m very upset that these girls are getting off so easy.

Some people have no conscious: “If we had killed her, would we get a bigger book deal?” A plea and a book deal. That’s what they get?

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March 7, 2009

Garland

Blame it on the justice system, Ame. Plus we can also blame the judge &amp the prosecutors for this. Victims get no real justice nowadays.

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March 7, 2009

AmyV

Good morning Garland,

No victims surely do not get justice anymore do they? I am not really sure what we can do about this. Except for sending letters to these judges. of course making sure they are not re-elected if they run for term offices. Just keep hooping and fighting for innocent victims. Maybe someday this screwed up mess will finally turn around to look at victims rights and punishments. Instead of what is best for the criminals. It makes everyone angry and feel helpless.

Ame –

Not sure if your name is the same as mine. Many ways of spelling Amy. lol. I hope the one thing the judge did was make it so no profit can be made from the girls or there parents in anyway.
Surely hope that includes any rights to a book deal. I do believe this is already a stipulation of t.v. appearances. So for that much I myself am grateful.

I would hate to think of them or their families making one penny off of this crimes. Of course if they did write a book I would hope noone would every buy it. Unless Victoria choose to do this I would not contribute one dime to these girls.

I have said from the beginning they could have easily killed this girl. Others have said it was not that bad. This I also found ubelieveable. For the grace of God they did not kill her. I doubt any of them would be smiling now. Murder charges, especially when captured on tape, would not have gotten this sentence. Also much more press. So very sad for this girl and anyother teenager that thinks violence is o.k. or that has been bullied themselves.

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March 7, 2009

phil

Amyv
Sorry I I should of sent some pina colades your way to cool you off some but if you are worked up like I am over the way things went then only in our minds do we get justice .
Truly a sad end to a sad case .This outcome was truly pre written as soon as the state opted for plea deals . As Scott so often said why wait a year for this crap,
You see I just as upset and too early for pina coades . so I guess its rum and cokes instead

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March 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil- It’s been a while since Dylan sang, “When you’re lost in the rain in Juarez and it’s Easter time too…” Better watch what they’re putting in those drinks LOL. A sad end to a sad case but time moves on, and the sad case has ended but the future doesn’t have to be sad. Well, it may be sad for some of those who are smiling and gloating now. If the miscreants think they got away with something, then they still have some lessons to learn and life has a way of teaching lessons in ways we least expect.

Garland, Ame, and Amy, yes the justice system is a mess. The people with no conscience know how to work the system to their advantage. Moral values are ignored or ridiculed. But I believe the majority of people are good and retain a sense of right and wrong and sooner or later they will find a way to make their outrage felt. There is no need for despair, nor do people have to resort to vigilante justice, which is itself a form of despair. There is no need to be angry and upset. Karma will do its work, you can be sure of it.

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March 7, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Thank you for your heart felt offer lol. Also extremely disappointed and at a loss for why this all took so long? For this. I will never understand.
The things I come up with in my mind I don’t know if justified or not. Sure didn’t help seeing Mercades laughing and smiling. Watch the rum and cokes. Hot sun and rum do not mix well. Hate to see you come back from vacation with no memories but a hang over. lol.

Gomp –

Always the optomist. Are we done jumping from post to post. This and Topix o.k. Just gets hard to keep track of where everyone is. I have seen Karma work surely in mysterious ways. I have also seen people who deserved a little bit of Karma never seem to get it. So this may just be the way it will end.

No justice for Victoria. Hateful girls learn nothing. Justice system a complete diseaster. Gloating and proud over such terrible actions. What kind of Karma will they get back for that? For the good people Gompertz this was bad Karma. I always respect your ability to be the voice of reason. When there are some who may well want vigalante justice.

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March 11, 2009

Ame

Thank you for the replies. My name is pronounced Amy (it’s Amelia). Anyway, I do believe in Karma and I believe in God. What goes around DOES come around eventually. That’s just the way it is. Everyone needs to remember that we should CHOOSE our battles wisely for there are always consequences.

We’ll have to wait and see what the future holds for all these girls.

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March 12, 2009

gompertz

Ame- I agree with everything you say. Those who attacked Victoria certainly didn’t choose wisely and Karma will do its work. But I am happy that April Cooper apologized at the sentencing yesterday. She was the one who seemed the toughest and most incorrigible and yet she seemed very contrite and that is a hopeful sign that something good may yet come out of this tragedy.

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March 12, 2009

Electronica

well i agree april and kayla didnt get much but i think they now feel bad about what they did and they know it was wrong. and i think their real sorry not just sorry they got caught i mean they didnt have to cry and stuff they knew already their punishment isnt going to be so bad. and you can get teased a lot and stuff for crying like that and stuff and they will im sure. so i just think it was for real and thats good.

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March 13, 2009

Aaron Jefferson

Our justice system is sad and pathetic. There are no more “juvenile” crimes like mailbox baseball. Only juveniles committing adult crimes like assault and murder. Ever hear of a “90 day homicide”? Houston detectives learned this term when Katrina refugees came to Houston. Some of these bad eggs started killing people. When questioned, they’d respond with the comment “This ain’t nothin’ but a 90-day homicide.” The attitude reflects the disgusting revolving door justice of New Orleans, where murderers were sentenced to longer terms but often released after only 90 days. If society thinks these girls “got off easy”, then you can bet there’s also a large portion of society that thinks perhaps the crime must not have been so bad to warrant a such a weak punishment.

Do some research, and look at the number and nature of juvenile crimes committed in the US since 1950 through 2000. Then go look in the mirror, cry, and say “Why did I not do enough?” Yes I have anger, and some of it is directed at those of you here that blog up this tabloid crap. If you have time to type, it means you’re not busy really doing anything about it.

I won’t be here anymore. Good luck to all of you.

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March 13, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

I do so hope you are right you have proven to be right so many times bfore. I just wish they would have felt sorry and bad when it was much more needed. March 30, 2008. Glad to here your opinion on things.

Ame – O.k. first of all I could have sworn I had wrote this on here somewhere before to you. My name is Amelia as well. Strange coincidence. Also because much of what you say I could not agree with more.

Hi Gomp – Respond to you on other sites. So you know how I feel. Peace maker.

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March 13, 2009

AmyV

Aaron Jefferson –

Interesting comments. Yet find something puzzling. Perhaps you can answer this question for me. For those of you that find time to read these blogs and make occasional comments Are you wasting time reading ‘tabloid crap’ and blogging as well instead of out there doing something about it. Just wondering. No reply necessary.

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March 13, 2009

gompertz

Electronica- I agree that April could get teased for her display of remorse. Her old crowd will probably not forgive her for renouncing the “tough girl” image and choosing a better way. But maybe some young people will be inspired by her example and turn their lives around like she did and it won’t matter what the street thugs think. But I wonder why Mercades didn’t do what April did and offer an apology to the LIndsays.

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March 13, 2009

gompertz

Aaron Jefferson- If you had read more of my comments on this blog, you would realize that I do not need to “do some research” in order to appreciate the sad state of the justice system. But then, I guess you have been busy organizing armies of mighty warriors to overthrow this evil system and only have time to inject an occasional sneer into our discussions. The methods of the ancients that you mentioned in a previous post certainly yielded impressive results and today we have far more powerful weapons than were available to the Romans, Huns and Mongols. I hope you are busy familiarizing yourself with the proper use of these weapons so that you do not hurt yourself or kill too many innocents in the course of carrying out your civilizing mission.

If I did not think that these discussions were useful in the struggle against decadence, I would not be here. But I will not bother to repeat why I feel this way for the benefit of someone who only wants to lecture us about things we already know all too well and offers only gratuitous insults rather than real solutions.

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March 13, 2009

Electronica

gomp idk about merc maybe she isnt sorry and thinks shes cool. or maybe shes real sad her moms mad at her shes got no friends no bf no one but her nana and no future so she like pretends shes happy just so.

and britta didnt say sorry did she. well the judge told them hes going to read those letters so it has to be real apology. but you know id have them read it on vid and send it to tori and maybe on youtube and have ppl vlog about it. and if ppl say it isnt good they have to do it all over again. anyways thats what i think.

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March 13, 2009

gompertz

Electronica- Good observation about Mercades. Maybe she feels low self-esteem because she has no BF and not much social life so she compensates for it by acting tough and uncaring. But she may be torn up inside and not showing her real feelings. Well, I’m happy she is going to get counseling because it might help her to see herself in a more positive way.
Then maybe she will find the strength and self-confidence to apologize like April did. I must say April showed a lot of courage and I think sooner or later the others will find the courage to apologize too and mean it.

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March 14, 2009

AmyV

Electronica –

I think you should consider a job in relations to the law. What you have stated as a just punishment far outweighs the one given by the judge. This would be a truly good form of having these girls apologize. Far better I believe than the one imposed by the judge. You are a very bright girl. I hope someday you will use your instincts, as reasoning these things out seems to come naturally to you, to guide others as well.

I see nothing but good for your future Electronica. You are a very kind person yet strong enough to always hold your own. So many qualities I think put together make you special. I know sounding all ‘motherly’ here.

Gompertz and Electronica –

Only time will tell what are the true emotions or intentions of any of these girls. Right now it is just based on judgement calls. Mercades I think truly needs counseling. Here behavior really was truly disappointing. For this we may never know why. She was the one who everyone tryed to give some leniancy for. Well I will admit never me. Yet she did not accept it as the gift that it was. So I fear more trouble for her in store. Hope I am wrong though.

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March 14, 2009

Scott

Ame #2 makes a crucial point in how easily Tori could have gotten an brain aneurysm or blood clot on the brain for all the roughly 100 punches her face and head absorbed. Tori will likely have to undergoe cranium x-rays for many years to make sure there are no problems with her head.

And I agree with Amy #1 that Electronica would have done a better job as judge in the Victoria Lindsay case than judge Spoto did.

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March 14, 2009

Electronica

amy thanks. ppl told me before i should be a lawyer i lke to argue a lot. thats true and some ppl dont like it some grownups dont like it at all say im fresh and stuff but i just say what i think and if something doesnt make sense or isnt fair i say so. anyways idk about being a lawye i dont think id like to help bad bad ppl not get punished or not so bad ppl go to prison for a long time. and can you be a judge a not be a lawyer first i dont think so.

and you know things are so strange. like they made a big deal out of the vid and said its like the worst of the worst and ppl said give them all life and stuff. and i saw the vid and i was like thats not a real jump. and wired i think had the vid with all they said no beeps and you could hear them saying fight back its fair its one on one. and its not fair if you dont wanne fight but it just isnt true it was like 8 on 1 jump. and i knew she wasnt knocked out she couldnt argue with them like that you get knocked out or you bang your head real good with someone in soccer and you have a big headake for a long time no way you could yell and stuff. and i read what tori told the cops and she didnt say what they said like she said cara didnt hit me and cops said cara hit her so cops lied but they get away with it all the time ppl let them.

so anyways it didnt make sense and i was like brittis real bad but i know girls as bad as her and lots worse than the other girls on the vid. and if they have to go to prison even april and kayla to adult prison for many years well i think like a third of the boys in my school and maybe one fifth of the girls would have had to go to jail too at least a juvie and that was just middle school. and thered be many more girls than boys and itd make girls fight more over boys so maybe more girls would go to a juvie too. so anyways i knew if ti wasnt on tv all the time itd be just home arrest for kayla and maybe a month or two in a juvie for april no more.

and now its like they dont get anything no home arrest and do they have to do some charity work i read no they didnt. so its like the cops and lawyers and judges its just a game to them they care only about themselves and in the end none of it makes sense.

anyways thats what i think. gn.

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March 15, 2009

AmyV

Electronica –

Something we have very much in common. I have also been accused of liking to argue. lol. But I think if you are like me it is really not just to argue. It is to state something you believe strongly in. So really not fresh to state your opinion when you feel it is for a good reason. Of course we all know with grownups and teenagers sometimes we will think differently on what those are.

I am sure there are many careers where you could stand up for people without having to be a lawyer. Of course you could specialize in defense attorney instead of prosecutor. That way you could defend those you feel are innocent without having to worry about sending someone to jail. No matter how angry we get at some lawyers or judges for the good ones that has to be a heavy burden.

As for the video Electronica we have talked with each other about this one before. You just come from a different set of experiences than I have or maybe a lot of the grownups on this blog. This I have tried to say I hope without offending you is what I would like to see changed. I have though even before this tape teenage violence has gone way to far.

My experiences in life have not shown me these kinds of actions. Certainly not like what teens are exposed to today. So I find it kind of hard to say the right words to make you understand. Because you have seen things that have made you know this is wrong yet seen once to often. Please correct me if I am wrong. Jumpings, ganging up more than one on one just is not something we thought was acceptable when growing up.

We also had a set of rules I guess like any teenage generation does. Fighting in anyway was never good. Yet when it did happen it was one against one. No sucker punches or surprise attacks. Or others would have jumped in and broke it up. If not then you were considered a coward. So unfortunately we do look at this tape differently and i do not know if that will ever change. I know for me it will not.

I do like however that even though you believe it not as bad as people think. You always have said it was wrong. So on that we very much agree. Just really disturbing that your school is filled with people who are no better than this. Or at least lack the kindness to be so. I wish that was different Electronica. I truly do. That is why I have blogged about this from day one.

None of us here can explain why the sentences were what they were. Or why it took so long. Maybe someday when you or if you do become a lawyer you can educate us on that one. We need that answer as much as you do.

Have a good day Electronica. Always stay safe.

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