Mercades Nichols arrested again

Written by

Mercades Nichols, she of the Victoria Lindsay beating, has been arrested once again for charges not related to the beating.

Sometime between Oct. 31 and March 28, Nichols stalked and threatened the victim online and in person, even when Nichols was aware that an injunction had been placed against her, Wood said.

“She harassed, cyber-stalked and placed the victim in fear,” Wood said, reading from the arrest warrant.

The victim is said to be Nichols’ ex-boyfriend.

She’s being held without bond.

Comments

214 responses to “Mercades Nichols arrested again”

August 7, 2008

John

Figures. That’s all I have to say.

Reply
August 7, 2008

Laurie

Wow. Now that she is where she belongs, lets hope she doesn’t get out. I have genuine concerns that this will not stop with just threats or beating on girls….

Reply
August 8, 2008

Mrs Garda

Hmmmm. I wonder how many people will come out of the woodworks defending her this time. Let’s sit and watch, shall we? The girl OBVIOUSLY has mental problems.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Mrs Garda

Oh and. She’s definitely where she belongs.

Reply
August 8, 2008

jade

i wonder if her parents still think she’s all sweetness and light?

Reply
August 8, 2008

Mrs Garda

But sweetness and light always attacks people that’ve wronged it! *shifty eyes* Remember. The lord thy god said “thou shalt slappeth the bitch that disseth thou on thy webspace.”

Reply
August 8, 2008

Chicken Soup For The

If you like bigots, batters, and bullies, you’ll love the criminally incompetent parents who teach them how to behave.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Amyv

Mrs Garda – she already has people coming to her defense on other blogs. Ex: the ledger blogers. Hate to be proven wrong. Even if this incident was prior to the beating, it shows a pattern of violent behavior. And cyber bullying isn’t that why they beat up Victoria. Well I guess her mother who stated “Victoria was threatening these girls she should have been ready to back up her words.” Well her own daughter is backing up her words by being held in jail with no bond. Society can rest a little easier. Love your quote.
Wonder how that law suit against the sheriff is working for them now? Laurie – I think this pertains to a former boyfriend. I guess we will get further info.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Amyv

Wow. Read more about this. She stabbed the boyfriend with a pencil. Threatened to have him jumped after school by a group of boys. What is it with this jumping and beating up people with a crowd to help you. This girl is a mess. She is dangerous to society. Although she seems to like to encourage others to do the beatings for her. Ex: She never Hit Victoria. So a bad ass in cowards clothing. And surprise, surprise after he filed an injunction against her for fear for his safety another familiar name comes in to place. Little Miss Pink Pants, Brittini Hardcastle delivers a Valentines gift to him from Mercades. B.H. involved in this as well. Hurry up with the courst cases already and put that one behind bars as quick as you can to.

Reply
August 8, 2008

BW

Garcia said the stalking case against her daughter was closed and feels the arrest was in retaliation because of her intent to sue the agency.

“This screams retaliation,” Garcia said Thursday of her daughter’s arrest. “I will not allow them to do this to my daughter.”

So yes, the parents still think she’s all sweetness and light.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Mrs Garda

Pft. of course shes sweetness and light. Because. You know. She’s not violent at all.

Good god I hope I am never like these parents…

Reply
August 8, 2008

Scott

I hope Mercades gets the counseling she needs now that she’s back in jail. And she could be in jail until the trial is over.

I don’t think Dr. Phil will bail her out of jail this time.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Chicken Soup For The

Dr. Phil is a boob.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Amyv

Mercades mother is a nut. She sees the money she was hoping to get slipping from her fingers. Of course their are still “some people” who actually believe it is all the sheriff’s fault but, they look more ridiculous by the minute. Sorry Garcia your daughter did this to herself. Even if it happened before the beat down. What goes around comes around.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Navigator

Amyv… Yeah, I have read the Ledger Blogs. Some people just want to defend this girl to the end… makes me sick. Some are saying “oh, it is going to ruin her life” PLEASE! What about the lives that this girl has ruined… what about the torment that Tori will have to go through forever. Or what about the effect Mercedes actions has had upon this ex boyfriend and any relationship he has in the future. These 2 lives have been changed forever and all these people want to worry about is HER future and how HER future will be effected by “getting in trouble” and that her options will be limited now in HER future because of these 2 arrest. Makes me sick to my stomach. These simple minded people are the reason why our country is in the state it is in with all our violence. Defend the criminal and prosecute the victim! Let them back out on the street so they can do it again and get away with it again …. because no one wants to gather the BALLS to give these criminals the HARD TIME they deserve any more!! SC*** political correctness man… desperate times call for desperate measures…

Reply
August 8, 2008

Garland

It’s no surprise, Amy &amp Navigator, &amp I agree with everything that both of you have said. There are some people from The Ledger that think that the girls should get away for what they did to Victoria, like Jack for instance. It’s craziness.

I wonder if Dr. Phil or one of his staff members will bail her out this time.

Reply
August 8, 2008

Amyv

Navigator – Thank god. A voice of reason. Its late and I just read more blogs from those people. UNBELIEVEABLE. I can’t even respond to them. That is why I blog on here. People have sense. What is with all of this “conspiracy theory”? It is beyond ridiculous. And their was a comment that people take out injunctions over the littlest things. Lets see: She stabbed her ex-boyfriend with a pen, tryed to pay another boy $50.00 to break up her ex and his new girlfriend, pushed him up against the wall at school. But, the real kicker was threatening to have him jumped by boys after school. (sounds like another case she is involved in). Also, tryed to run him(he also had a passenger in the car) off the road and guess who was in the car with her. None other than Brittini Hardcastle. Remember 911 call when the mother of the girlfriend who picked her up after the beating said these girls had tryed to run her daughter off of the road. But, lets all blame the sheriff. Its all a big conspiracy. The boy must have something gain from this. (What are some people thinking). If B.H. was in the car with her, I think she should also be charged additionally with assault with a deadly weapon. Get these monsters off of the streets before they kill somebody. And for anyone who wants to stick up for them. Bail them out, take them home and let them hang around your teenager. See how sorry you feel for them then. This needs to go to trial very quickly. They are a complete danger to society. Hate to make a joke here but didn’t you ever see the movie children of the corn? That is what some people make this town sound like. Adults wanting little monsters to run the town. If I were Victoria the news of Mercades arrest would give me great satisfaction. Sorry if that sounds hateful but, enough is enough. Garland – I think Dr. Phil learned his lesson last time. And this time the bail is a lot more.

Reply
August 9, 2008

LawAndOrder

A source out of Lakeland on the Topix forum (which lists people’s location based on IP address) says that Victoria Lindsay will be a state witness in the new case against Mercades Nichols.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Scott

Amy, I wonder if Mercades re-arrest really gives Tori any satisfacton let alone great satisfaction. If Tori still has physical problems to deal with from the assault then she’s probably sad and nothing could heal her except getting her health back to normal. But no one outside of her family and close friends knows how Tori is doing.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Navigator

Amyv… Mercedes sounds more like the making of a mob boss to me. She tries to hire someone to make the situation go her way – to break up the couple – and then was going to have someone jump the ex boyfriend as well. Running people off the road and stabbing with a pencil…..dang…Sounds like the “Godfather” in the teenage years…lol. What kind of hold does this girl have on this “gang” she hangs with.

Reply
August 9, 2008

gompertz

Just got back from the Pennsylvania woods, so peaceful there, and saw this new posting. So Mercades was on probation and facing more legal troubles already. Could it be that is why she refrained from physically attacking Victoria? Did she make a rational calculation that such an act would add to her legal difficulties? Just wondering. Amyv, just checked some of the comments from the Ledger, and yes,there are some people who side with the perpetrators. But we have to expect that. Maybe they are friends or relatives of the perpetrator, or maybe fans of Bill Maher, who told us that the victim in this case “probably had it coming.” What can you expect from liberal elitists? Every person of good will shpuld feel anger. Anger based on moral outrage is good, but only if it is focused on positive action, or else it becomes self-destructive. Just read Greg’s entries on the other posting, and there he introduces practical ideas for implementing science-based solutions. For now I can only wonder what the percentages are, pro and con, down in Polk County. Very few will be neutral I think. For my next trip next month, maybe I will skip the woods and head down to Florida and conduct an informal poll. Possibly by then they will have set a trial date, but I’m not holding my breath.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Amyv

Scott – Very true. We do not know how the victim is doing physically. The family is very wisely holding that close to the vest until trial. However, I have read she is doing much better physicaly. I hope this is true. I guess what I should have said was that this might bring further relief from Tori emotionally. Her mother mentioned she kept saying, “why me, what did I do that was so bad”? Maybe, she will see that this is a way of life for these girls. She didn’t do anything “so bad”. They apparently have bullied quite a few people. Poor Victoria was just the one who got the full brunt of their bullying. And, might be the one to bring them down. Gompertz -The only postive action necessary for this has been done. This girl is back in jail and away from society. As for some of the people in the town sticking up for these girls, it seems to be more about bashing the sheriff. I think they care more about making the sheriff and police department look dangerous then they care about the safety of the children in their town. I do not give Mercades Nichols the benefit of having enough ability to think it through and not hit the girl. Navigator seems to have the right idea. This girl seems to like to have others do her dirty work. Trying to get others to beat up her ex-boyfriend. Letting everyone else hit Victoria. I think as I have stated before this girl is a coward. I think she is scared if she confronted these people one on one, or without the use of a car, she might get hurt.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Scott

Amy, I have not read that Tori is doing much better physicaly. But I hope that’s the case.

As for the family and friends of those arrested blaming the sheriff or Tori for all of this trouble their loved ones are in they need to look in the mirror and figure out how they messed up and didn’t recognize that these kids had major issues to deal with. The assault on Tori was so avoidable. And all it would have taken was some common sense to intervene.

Reply
August 9, 2008

gompertz

Amyv, the arrest was a positive step, but only a step. As for attributing the power of rational judgment to Mercades, I was not trying to pay her a compliment, but only saying what I think is obvious, that even the most depraved people are capable of modifying their behavior when faced with the threat of punishment.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Amyv

Scott – Mercades mother had commented on her restraining order after Toris beating. Surprise, it was also the boys fault. He kept talking to her and that was also a violation of the order. He was violent and blah, blah, blah. So that being said she already blamed this victim as well before the recent arrest. And so are “other people” not doubt family members or friends. But, the good thing is they can blame others as much as they want. It won’t matter when she has her days in court. So: Victoria fault, societys faulty, parents fault, sheriffs fault, the entire police departments fault and the latest ex-boyfriends fault. It looks like a lot of people don’t have enough common sense in this case. Gompertz -Mercades was already threatened with punishment. Keep yourself out of trouble and no further action will be taken on the boyfriend incident. Her behavior did not change. It rose to a whole new level and poor Victoria paid the prize. So the threat of punishment did not seem to matter much to her. I don’t think she is the sharpest tool in the shed anyway. Some people can not be rehabilitated. Scott – since Brittini Hardcastle was in the car with her when she tryed to run this boy over, Can she be charged with assault with a deadly weapon? That seems to be a hobby of theirs.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Scott

Amy, they are playing the blame game. But in the end that won’t pay fof for them. There will be no high paying high profile television interviews for Mercades or the other girls. That better be reserved for Tori who at some point needs to go public.

Reply
August 9, 2008

Amyv

Wow – just read the official police reports for this prior case. Some of it was kind of hard to read. This girl paid another boy to beat up her ex and his girlfriend. She text messaged her ex and threatened to beat up his girlfriend. She pushed the new girlfriend at school into the ex throwing him into a locker and knocking the breath out of him. She had plans to beat up the girlfriend but her and Brittini Hardcastle (fat miss pink pants) decided the location was not a good one. So not only was she threatening him she was also threatning his girlfriend. He went to school officials twice and no action was taken. This is a HUGE problem at our schools. It is to bad charges where not also filed against Brittini. These girls need to go to jail for a long time. Some of these things happened only 3 days before they beat the crap out of Victoria. They were just itching to fight somebody. Is their anyway this can be brought up in court at Brittinis trial to? Showing her character. I hope so. No more pity for these little monsters. If they get beat up in jail, they deserve it. They like to fight so much.

Reply
August 10, 2008

Scott

Amy, the difference is Mercades and Brittni like to fight against weaklings. In jail they won’t be fighting weaklings they will be fighting against women who can fight back.

And what the hell was Tori thinking choosing live with Mercades and all her problems instead of living at home? For an allegedly smart girl that was a stupid decision for Tori to make.

Reply
August 10, 2008

Amyv

Scott – Yes, I agree that Tori should have had a better class of friends. But, I am sure that she never expected Mercades to turn on her that way. From what I can tell she didn’t hang around any of the other girls. The one good thing that has come out of this is Tori is home where she needs to be. You are right they are going to be way out of their league when they go to jail. Those girls in their don’t play. They will be the weaklings. Not that I consider Tori and Mercades ex-boyfriend weaklings. Just out numbered. I will say it again. I think these girls were sitting on ready to fight anybody at this point. I think Tori was just the easiest target. For some reason she trusted Mercades. That was the wrong decision. But, isn’t that what we call Monday morning quarterbacking? When will these girls go to trial already?

Reply
August 10, 2008

Scott

Oh Amy monday morming quarterbacking right as the NFL pre-season just got underway? ) So true about Tori and Jacob Johns not being weaklings. It took Tori great strength to keep her composure and not fight back. If Tori fought back who know what they would have done to her. And Johns had to put up with threats and violence from Mercades after they dated for 2 years and then broke up. I agree with you that the girls were just itching to beat up someone and Tori was an easy target and the girls had issues with her. And they had Kayla’s mother’s video camera too. Lights camera action!

Reply
August 10, 2008

Mrs Garda

you know? honestly? This may sound strange but the thing that upset me the MOST about that video?

Those little smiles on the girls faces. ALL of them. The smugness in their voices…they all knew what was going to happen. The only one confused and scared was the one that got beat up. Everyone else showboated for the camera.

Reply
August 10, 2008

Amyv

Yes, they were quite please with themselves and enjoying every minute. And I agree the noises they were making and comments to her were VERY disturbing. That is part of what makes this tape so sickening. I can’t imagine being on the jury and having to watch the whole thing. Everytime one of them tries to look sorry or innocent by crying, just play the jury the tape. How different they all act now. Wow they give a new meaning to mean girls. I beat they won’t be show boating for the jury. Scott – (preseason is when your team can lose and you can say well its only preseason lol.(:

Reply
August 11, 2008

M. Hutchence

wow! i’m trying to remain somewhat professional, but all i can say is that she is a real idiot, complete mess, and thank god she got apprehended.

She really needs to be out of society for decades.
possibly longer.

Reply
August 11, 2008

LawAndOrder

Well, for the time being at least, she is in the Polk County jail. Looks like the Nichols family can’t make the $8,150 + asset surety bond to total $81,500 value.

The score card with the combined two cases is five felonies (including a level ten felony, highest level below capital murder), and five misdemeanors. If she’s convicted of all charges she will be going away for at least ten years.

Reply
August 11, 2008

M. Hutchence

good!

Any word on how the trial will come about? or if there will even be one?

Reply
August 11, 2008

LawAndOrder

Regarding the trial for the Victoria Lindsay case.. there is a pretrial hearing scheduled for August 26th.

As for this case involving the ex-boyfriend, there’s an arraignment scheduled for August 26th as well, 15 minutes before the pretrial for the Victoria case begins.

Mercades will not have to appear for either the pretrial or the arraignment. She can enter a plea by writing for the arraignment, and defendants are not required to appear for pretrial.

No actual trial date has been set yet for either case.

Reply
August 11, 2008

Amyv

It is a good thing they can not come up with the bail. She needs to stay in jail. LawAndOrder – please explain to me what happens at a pretrial? It has been been five months since the beating. I thought pretrial was when you entered a plea? With all of their evidence against these girls why is this taking so long. They need to at least get Brittini Hardcastle away from society. She is also a very huge threat to society. Also, which one of the charges is a level ten felony? If someone was arrested 10 years ago can you go to a site without paying and get the same detailed information as you can in this case? Or will it also show the fact behind the charges?

Reply
August 11, 2008

LawAndOrder

Usually one of two things occurs: A trial date is set, or another pretrial hearing is scheduled. Other than that, procedural things like the judge inquiring how the discovery process is progressing, etc. I am guessing the defense lawyers will motion for continuance again, and ANOTHER pretrial hearing will be set for September or October.

Arraignment is where you enter the plea. That was held several months ago. They all entered not guilty pleas.

Kidnapping is the level ten felony.

The Polk County court website has felony records dating back to 1953 — all accessible for free. Other counties vary on disclosure policies.

Reply
August 11, 2008

Scott

Amy, that’s so true about preseason football.

Mercades is in deep trouble now. Now I hope she gets the help she needs and serves the time in jail that she needs to.

Reply
August 12, 2008

Amyv

Scott – I know these sounds hateful but, I wish they could get Brittini Hardcastle On something else also. She seems to be the meanest one of the group. Although, maybe with her charges from just this case she in deep enough trouble already. She needs to go away for a long time. Law and Order – If these girls are riding around town trying to run people off of the road, isn’t that assault with a deadly weapon.I am guessing that is one of the charges Mercades is facing? I find law fascinating. I wish I would have persued that field when I was in college. Sorry if my questions sound uneducated. One more please. When you are charged with domestic violence, did you have to physicaly lay a hand on the victim. A guy I work with said he got mad at his girlfriend and kicked down the front door. He was charged with domestic violence. I think his story is a little fishy. Off of subject I know. Just was curious.

Reply
August 12, 2008

LawAndOrder

Yes, Mercades actually has two counts of assault with a deadly weapon. One of those is for using her vehicle as a deadly weapon, and the second is for using a pen as a deadly weapon.

Reply
August 14, 2008

Greg

Enough is enough, F*ck that bitch, give her prison time.

Seriously if she’s going to stalk people, put her in prison where she belongs. I hope she gets at least a decade, and she probably deserves even more time.

We need to stop rewarding and enabling stalkers and violent criminals.

Reply
August 14, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I totally agree. This girl has got some major problems. And she is a complete threat to society. I also, think Brittini Hardcastle should go down hard. It seems they hang together and this behavior is normal for them. As for the rest of the girls, we will see what comes out at the trial.
It seems like they get a kick out of driving around town and trying bully and run people off the road. Don’t mean to bring physical aspects in her but their time could have been better served at a gym. Working off their extra weight and getting rid of all that energy in a positive way. I say hurry up with the trial. But, don’t stop their. Bullies have got to start facing some consequences. Enough is enough. The school should be investigated for its policies since this boy when to them to report her bullying and they did nothing. Unfortunately, this is the norm in public school, not the exception. Back to zero tolerance for bullying. It is sad when people have to home school their kids because of all of the violence they are faced with on daily basis. What is ths schoolboard going to do about this. Stop brushing things under the rug and start kicking these idiots out of school. Plus if it happened on school grounds call the police. I am sick of them babying these kinds of kids.

Reply
August 14, 2008

Scott

Amy, I think Brittni and Mercades bullying days are over. But it’s a shame there is no beginning in sight for the trial. And that’s just what the defense lawyers want. It’s up the Polk County and he prosecution to wait however long it takes for the trail to take place and for Tori to receive justice.

Reply
August 14, 2008

Amyv

Scott – I don’t understand why they let cases like these with so much evidence drag on for so long. Aren’t both of these girls 17? I think it might be to their benefit to get it over with before they turn 18. Although, that might not make any difference in the end. I sure hope their bullying days are over. At least Mercades isn’t able to bully because she is in jail. Since I don’t think they are at all sorry for what they did, I can’t imagine Brittini Hardcastle has learned her lesson yet.

Reply
August 16, 2008

Scott

Amy, Mercades is out of jail. Someone posted bond for her. Yes Brittni and Mercades are 17 and will be tried as adults.

You make a good point about the assault is on video so what kind of evidence is there to gather? The defense is just wasting time at this point. Tori should file civil suits against the Infamous 8 and their parents even before the trial starts. Maybe that would wake the defense up and get the trail moving. .

Reply
August 16, 2008

Mrs. Garda

The job of Mercades’ lawyer is to either make the video out to be not as bad as it looks, or else to defame the poor victim to the jury, basically saying things about how she provoked it all off video, that sort of thing, if I’m right. One of our more lawyer minded patrons could probably tell me if I’m right or not.

Really though that video speaks for itself. There can’t be anyone who would believe that girl is the madonna…

Reply
August 16, 2008

Amyv

Well I wonder who posted her bail? I take it this time she will be kept on house arrest. Good luck to the lawyers trying to make the tape not look bad. And if I was on the jury the worst thing they could do is attack the victims character. If you can get jurors to fall for that one, I would be shocked. I don’t care if she threatened them every day. I don’t think she had problems with all of them. If she threatened some of them, one on one discussions would have solved it. Not 6 on1. Not videotaping, and not kidnapping. Their is just no way to make these girls look like anything but the scum they arey. I agree, if I were Victoria’s parents I would have already filed civil suits. But, I am sure they are holding back for a good reason. That will follow the trial. I guess the defense has to try to come up with something. Although, they have a tough case in front of them. An impossible case as far as I am concerned. Scott – how did you find out she got bailed out of jail?

Reply
August 16, 2008

Amyv

innocent until proven guilty. Unless of course you were stupid enough to tape your crime.

Reply
August 16, 2008

Mrs. Garda

Oh I agree with you entirely. I was just trying to answer the question ^_^

Reply
August 16, 2008

Amyv

It is ridiculous how long they take to bring criminals to justice.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Electronica

amyv i read it can take a year. its a big crime thats why. they could get life. when its murder it can take two three years. kidnapping can be like a year or more.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Electronica

and amyv i heard she and her b/f were going to have a baby but she lost it and he left her and got himself another g/f. it doesnt make it ok what she did. if she did it. i dont trust the cops much. so idk. im just saying her heart must have been broken.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Amyv

El – Yes I also heard that she was pregnant. I believe it was her mother that reported that one. As far as her boyriend leaving her after she lost the baby, I don’t know. It sounds like he had a whole lot of other reasons to leave her. Mainly because of her bullying. Unfortunately, many young girls get pregnant and then dumped. And yes it must be heart breaking. But you can’t go around trying to run people off the road. You can’t be pushing them around. And you can hire someone to beat them up (thats a big one). I am not saying that all cops are good. Just like everybody else in society, their are bad people and good ones. However, if someone was breaking into your house while you were at home you would call the cops right? They are also their to protect you. So saying you don’t trust all cops might not necessarily be true. However, in this case the cops had nothing to do with it. In my opinion they should have been brought in sooner. Believe me these girls will not get life. However, Mercades needs to do some hard time. So does Brittini Hardcastle. Good to see you back on.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Amyv

Oh I forgot something also. Remember when their was a big rumor going around that Victoria was pregnant, after the fight, and was going out to night clubs and partying. I don’t think that ended up being true because she would be pretty far along by now. So unless I read it in a police report or see it on tape, I have to wonder if its true. How do we really know Mercades was even pregnant to begin with.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Electronica

amyc i dont think merc hired anyone to beat him she payd a cousin of his g/f to leave him. its not right but its not the same. i know some older girls who would do the same if it could work but it doesnt i think the cousin was just playing with her.

idk why ppl always make up stuff about the girls its like they wantr them to be even more bad than they are.

Reply
August 17, 2008

Electronica

and amyv i saw those rumors too long long ago but it was from ppl who hated tori and they said shes a slut and worse so i didnt trust them.

but with mercades it was her mom saying it i dont think moms would make up stuff like that they dont like it if their daughters have kids too young.
she also said he beat her too and thats why she lost the baby. idk about that. but i know ppl who hit each other sometimes but stay together it doesnt make sense to me but its true. anyway gn.

Reply
August 18, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – the information I got about her paying someone came straight from the police report. The exboyfriend stated that she paid another boy $40.00 to beat him and break up him and his girlfriend. So, unless the boyfriend was lying, those are the facts. And it wasn’t joke. The boy she gave the money to, didn’t say anything about him being a cousin, said he took her money but, had no intention on going through with what she wanted him to do. So this isn’t a rumor it is on an official police report. And, if the boyfriend lied, their are an awful lot of liars in this case. The police, the sheriff, the boyfriend, etc. My money would be beat on the girls are lying. As for Mercades mom, didn’t you notice she has a screw loss. She was the one that said all of that stuff about them beating on each other. Why would the boy risk looking like he was scared of a girl and go to school officials if he to was beating her? It doesn’t make sense. I go with what makes more sense. As for Mercades mom, I don’t believe a word she says. She is a big part of that girls problem. Also, on a news cast a couple of months ago, they spoke to the exboyfriends grandmother. She said Mercades was violent and she was scared of her. Unless she is lying to. That makes a whole bunch of liars. With the facts I have seen, I can count how many liars I believe are involved in this case. The original 8. I will find the sight with the original police affidavit for you so you can read it for yourself. and see what the facts are. Yes, I doubted Tori was pregnant from the first time I saw people blogging about it. No one is out to get these girls. They have done that all by themselves. To me they can’t look much worse than they did on the video.

Reply
August 18, 2008

gompertz

On August 26, we will see if the presiding judge will allow the defense to get away with delaying tactics. I have some questions. Is it true that mercAdes got bailed out, and if so by whom? Also I saw an article that claimed Cara Murphy has been approached by Oprah. Any truth to that?

Reply
August 19, 2008

Amyv

I am not sure who bailed Mercades out. I haven’t read anything about it. Didn’t see the article about Oprah either although, I would think they would want to hold off until after the trail for talk shows. Even though the charges were dropped against Cara.

Reply
August 19, 2008

gompertz

The Oprah reference was from Tracing the motive youtube beating case, July (7). If true, pretty disturbing.

Reply
August 20, 2008

M. Hutchence

i already can’t stand Oprah, if she gets involved in this in anyway i will completely hate her

Reply
August 21, 2008

Electronica

amyv i read the police report and i was right she paid her cousin to break them up but didnt say he has to beat him up to get paid just break them up. and yes it was her cousin. why would she think her cousin would do it anyway? why did he take the money? its all strange.

and amyv if the boy didnt like merc why have a baby with her? idk boys who get beat up by their g/f and dont beat them too. the other way yes but not this way. so its all wierd.

and amyv he already had another g/f when he told on her in school.

oh and you didnt tell me about the boy killed i never found that story only the saratosa one.

Reply
August 21, 2008

Amyv

El – Sorry I am horrible with cut and paste or I would show you the site to go for the official police report. If you can’t find it I will have someone help me to get you the correct site. According to official police report, Mercades Nichols via e-mail was speaking to a boy with the last name of Jones. Jones is the cousin of Mercades exboyfriends new girlfriend. He is not Mercades cousin. It plainly states she asked him to BEAT him up and break the couple up. He took her money and had no intention of doing what she asked. Then he told his cousin, the new girlfriend about what had happened. This goes to show Mercades isn’t high on the I.Q. list. If you want someone beaten up don’t go to their girlfriends cousin. Well at least the boy took $40.00 from her. If she is that dumb she deserves to pay. As far as Mercades was pregnant, where is the proof? We don’t know that was actually the fact. Her mother was the one who gave out all of that information. And she is not a reliable source in my eyes. She bad mouthed Victoria on national t.v., so why not make the exboyfriend, who is also a victim, look bad. I know the boyfriend had a new girlfriend. She was present during incidents with Mercades i.e. her and Brittini trying to run them off the road. What difference does that make about when he went to school officials? That is probably why her violence towards him got to the point where he needed help with her. Sorry, I have not felt well and have not had a chance to look up the other case. Please let me know if you can’t find the police report with the correct information, as I stated above is. I can get it for you their.

Reply
August 21, 2008

Electronica

amyv i said i did read the police report and i did but i didnt read it like you. she said he should beat him up but she didnt pay him to beat him up just to get his cousin away from him. and yes he was the cousin of the new g/f thats what i meant. and cousins good to do it if he doesnt like the b/f shed listen to him maybe so its not that stupid but only if the cousins on your side but he wasnt on mercs side so she was stupid.

and he had another g/f between merc and this new new g/f. i was just saying thats why he told on merc they were not together anymore but before its wierd she beat him and he didnt beat her?

idk if the babys true or not but idk know anythings true i just go by what sounds like it could be true. maybe everyones lying and nothings true idk. gn.

Reply
August 21, 2008

Electronica

oh and i meant merc was stupid but the cousin was playing with her no? if her heart was broken it was easy she didnt see clearly she didnt see shes being set up. i mean its not like she hired a hit man she hired a cousin its not the same. anyway get well. gn.

Reply
August 21, 2008

Amyv

El – You have to be very careful what you say in a conversation. She did tell him she wanted him to beat the boy up. She also said she wanted the boy to break them up. Then money exchanged hands. If this boy would have beaten up her boyfriend and the police got a hold of that e-mail, it could all be joined together. Very similar to hiring a hit man. Except she wanted the boy hurt not dead. It doesn’t matter if this boy had been her own brother, these are very serious actions. Very dangerous. She seems to have quite a few episodes of no thinking right. I don’t know what her relationship was like with her ex-boyfriend. If he was beating on her she should have filed charges. It sounds like maybe they were both beating on each other and she went way over the line. Anyway, it shows a pattern of a severe anger management problem with her. So, she will have to face a jury and they will have to see the evidence. She needs some serious psych. help. She can’t control her actions and playing bumper cars with people on the roadway is assault with a deadly weapon. Their are witnesses to those incidents. I can’t believe that all of these people are lying and the one caught on tape is telling the truth. However, she can defend herself in court. good luck on that one. thanks for your concern. minor cold or allergies from this hurricane weather. If you live in Fla. be safe. gn

Reply
August 22, 2008

Electronica

amyv i agree when girls say a boy should geta beating he can get beaten. but lots of girls say stuff like that. me too sometimes if im not thinking but i also say im not serious. ppl say someone should get shot too but dont mean it.
i dont think merc wanted him dead or hurt she still loved him she wanted him back. she didnt care about him getting beat i think she just cared about him breaking up with his g/f. that’s why its importtant it was a cousin she paid, it was like an inside job, the g/f would listen to her cousin if he was older i think.

and girls dont go to cops if they get beat a little cause cops can be trouble and its not cool. but they shouldnt stay with their boy. but if they both hit each other then they both need help and shouldnt be together but i think its like drugs maybe they cant help it.
anyway i dont think theyll help her in prison theyll just beat her up or keep her all alone and drive her crazy. i mean real real crazy. when she gets out she will just go kill everyone is what i think.

Reply
August 22, 2008

Electronica

oh and amyv im not from down there im safe. and i hope it will be ok down there too.

and i dnt drive so i dont know much about the car stuff but do you think merc now wanted her ex dead? she could die too. and you think britti didnt care if she dies too? she was there and another girl too. like iof you hit someone you can get killed too no?

if i was in the car and merc tried to hit someone id beat her up at the next stop so she knows its crazy. i mena it wouldnt be right to beat her up but i couldnt help it i think id be real mad.

Reply
August 22, 2008

Amyv

El- I think we are through with the worst of the storm. It’s still raining alot though.
I know when a boy breaks your heart and you want him back you can say some stupid things. However, threatening to have a group of boys beat him up after school, hiring someone to break him and his girlfriend up and paying the boy is above board. As for the boy in the family, he is not related to Mercades. That wound’t matter in court. Might even make matters worse if he were. Also, stapping him with a pen is trying to hurt him. As far as trying to run someone off the road, your intention is not to go off the road with them. This is very serious. Many cases of road rage involve one person trying to run another off the road. They don’t consider the consequences that they to can get hurt. Since, these girls have done this more than once, it seems to be a thrill for them. They are seriously putting people in danger. They seem to feel they are to tough to get hurt. And the fact that Brittini and her were once again putting someone in danger shows they are trouble.

As for stopping at the next stop sign and beatin Mercades, I am sure Brittini would have jumped right in on that. Probably the other person in the car as well. This just shows people who knew them well were scared of them. I can’t stand bullies and that is what these girls obviously are. Who knows who else they were bullying. They need to be punished for all the torment they have put other people through.

I do have a temper like everyone else. However, sometimes you have to keep it in check to keep yourself out of major trouble. I also do understand sometimes you have to defend yourself. That is a different story. But, getting these bullies off of the street may put a stop to so many people having to make that decision. Yes if these girl would have tryed to run me off the road, I would have wanted to beat her to. But, that would have caused a whole lot more trouble in this situation. These girls travel in a pack. They don’t know what one on one means. Also, I find it funny that Mercades was scared of Brittini, doesn’t sound like that to me. Her mom was the one that issued that statement. That would be a really hard one to prove. Since they were busy all over town together. You have sense. You see consequences. These girls obviously did not.

Reply
August 22, 2008

Scott

Amy, I think I read it online that Mercades was bailed out of jail. But not by Dr. Phil this time. )

I don’t buy it when any of the girls say they were scared of Brittni their friend. No way.

And I agree those girls were bullies perhaps with the exception of Kayla who is seems to be too petite to bully anyone.

Reply
August 22, 2008

Amyv

Scott – I think Dr. phil learned his lesson last time. I agree with you almost 100%. These girls were not scared of Brittini. Certainly not Mercades who seems to have hung out with her quite a bit. As for Kayla she bullies with others to help defend her. I don’t believe for one second she was scared of any of these girls. But, I agree one on one with someone for Kayla might have been a big disadvantage. However, her using her size at this point doesn’t wash. Its no defense. I have seen some people who were small take down people bigger than them. But, Kayla would have been out of her league with these girls. Tori was out sized. With the exception of Kayla Tori was the smallest girl there. Kayla might be small but she is a bully. She hit this girl. She egged it on. She verbally abuse the hell out of Tori when Brittini was beating her. No doubt she would get her rear end kick by someone bigger. But, to cowardly to stand alone.

Reply
August 23, 2008

gompertz

I just can’t get past this thought. If Merc was bailed out (presumably by an anonymous benefactor} why isn’t it news? Neither the Tampa, Orlando, or Lakeland papers, or Wikio have commented on it.

Reply
August 23, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I haven’t seen anything on the news about it either. However, they have had their hands full with the tropical storm. It seems like they have lost interest in this case. The new hot topic of course is about that poor child missing. I think when these girls go to court we will hear something then. I do wonder though how they came up with someone to bail her out. The first time the bail was alot lower and they had trouble with that. Until Dr. Phil stepped in.

Reply
August 24, 2008

Electronica

amyv i know the boy is not related to merc hes related to the new new g/f and thats why merc had to think he doesnt like the boy and could talk his cousin out of being his g/f. thats what i meant by an inside job. its not that strange. only that she paid him. but if she was pretty and popular she wouldnt think she has to pay.

anyway i think theyll beat her up in prison and drive her real real crazy and when she gets out shes going to kill people.

Reply
August 24, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I don’t think her looks have much to do with it. The part about her paying him isn’t really strange. It just turns it into a much more serious offense. she was determined by any means to get her way. As for her going to jail and coming out worse, that is what all criminals face. She has broken the law several times. so she has to pay for her crimes. If she keeps heading down the path she is on, someone may be killed. Even if she accidentaly kills them running them off the road. She has no regard for other peoples safety or well being. She intentionaly inflicts pain on people. She choose to take these actions and know she must pay the price. It is a shame the way the prison system is run. But, people in prison are their for a reason. They broke the law. And in her case most of it has to do with threatening or causing actual harm to others. So she will have to face some tough people in prison. Just as her victims have had to face her.

Reply
August 24, 2008

Scott

Amy, I guess you aren’t cutting baby face Kayla any slack. ) Kayla really let Tori have it verbaly in the video. But she reportedy only hit Tori a couple of times then stopped because she didn’t like hitting Tori who had already been viciously pummeled. I still think Kayla will get off with the lightest punishment of all the 5 girls in this case who have charges against them.

The assault on Victoria Lindsay case needs to pick up speed and fast otherwise it could fade away into being a back page story.

Reply
August 24, 2008

Amyv

Scott – No, I don’t cut any of these girls slack. A baby face can be very deceiving. I do know she hit Victoria but, haven’t heard anywhere she stopped because she had already been beaten. If that came from her, I don’t believe it. But, emotionally she didn’t let up on Victoria one bit. And that was when Brittini was really pummeling her. So, no sympathy from me. The mental abuse in this case was just as bad as the physical. Maybe even worse. You are probably right she will the lightest sentence. We all know Brittini is going to take the worst punishment as well she should. April Copper was almost as bad. Except she has the fact she was only 14 on her side.

I hope once the trial starts they pick back up with the publicity. But, remember the jury will have to watch this tape. That will refresh their memories real fast. I think it is ridiculous these girls have not gone to court yet.

Reply
August 25, 2008

Electronica

amyv i dont think its right not to care what happens in prison to merc. if you send her there then your responsible. and if you dont care what happens to her then how are you any better than her?

and lots of ppl break laws and dont get in trouble. cops too. and most kids too. doesnt mean all should go to prison and get beat up.

and if she goes crazy in prison and comes out and kills someone than what about the person who gets killed?

i think she needs help not prison. like go to some nice juvie where they do lots of stuff so she forgets about the boy and her heart heals. and maybe exercise a lot so shes not so fat and finds another boy. and maybe some pills from ppl like mr. hutch. but not too many.

Reply
August 25, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – Mercades shows very strong tendancies towards violence. She shows a total disregard for inflicting pain and suffering on others. This is not just a case of a heart broken girl. That had nothing to do with the Victoria case. So why was she involved with that? Her actions are what is getting her in to serious trouble. Not me or anyone else who thinks she deserved to be punished. I don’t know much about juve. But do you think time in their will not harden her? She can not just go around breaking laws and terrorizing people with no consequences. That type of behavior can lead to murder as well. I don’t know what kind of psychological problems she has. One I would guess would be anti-social. Will medication help her? That is for a doctor to decide. But, letting her carry on with this behavior is not an option.

Their are a lot of people who get their hearts broken. Their are alot of people who are over weight.These are not excuses for her behavior. Even the most beautiful people in Hollywood get cheated on and dumped. So looking better and having another boyfriend are not going to fix some deep rooted problems with this girl. I have no idea what her punishment will be. That will be up to the jury.

A lot of the reason we have so much crime is because people are not punished. So that leads them to believe it is o.k. and they continue with bad behaviors. That is not a good defense for either.

Why is it o.k. for her and her friends to beat people but, we should be so concerned with them getting beat up? Don’t get mad. I don’t wish getting beat up on anyone. But, it is their violent behavior that has put them into this situation.

I am assuming from what you say about the police, their is a personal reason why you don’t trust them. Yes their are crocked cops. But their are a lot of good ones to who truely want to help people.

Reply
August 26, 2008

Electronica

amyv i just think if we dont care what happens to her we are no better than merc.

like merc was told by the other girls that tori was saying shell beat them up even to kayla whose younger and smaller. and for telling on her parents who called cops on her drinking beer. and she smokes too not sure its against the law but should be i think a little bit of beer is ok but even one cigarette can get you to smoke the whole pack soon ive seen that happen.

so anyway to merc tori was like a criminal i mean threats are against the law and kayla was like a witness who told the truth and now she was told shell get beat. and tori took stuff too merc said.

but merc tried real hard to get tori to leave and she did warn her. but when tori didnt listen merc gave up and then didnt stop the beating. well i think it was merc who was yelling at britti to let tori run away but anyway she didnt manage to stop it. she never hit her but she gave up.

so what i wrote is like mercs story the way she sees it. but my point is shes wrong for not stopping it. and now if a judge sends her to prison and doesnt care if she gets beat and if she just gets worse then the judge is no better than merc was when tori was beat up. you know what i mean? maybe tori broke the law but she didnt deserve to get beat. and maybe merc didnt hit her and didnt help to get her beat but she shuld have cared more about what is happening to tori. and we shouldnt be like merc was. we should be better.

anyway thats what i think.

Reply
August 26, 2008

Electronica

oh and i read they moved the hearing to october. so no trial for a long time.

im not going to be posting much ive got school soon. and i guess nothings going to happen for a long time. but ill check from time to time. anyway bye for now.

Reply
August 26, 2008

Amyv

Electronic – I don’t believe that what is going on in prisons. I think they need more guards and more control over the prisoners. Beating each other up in jail shows a system that is broken down and needs to be fixed.

As for Mercades, I don’t believe she ever said let her go. According to Victoria, Mercades blocked her at the door way also to prevent her from getting out. I did not see Mercades lifting a finger to help. She looked like she was enjoying the show. If you see her sitting on the couch when Brittini starts in on Victoria she looks like she has a smirk on her face.

All of these girls,5 of them, were scared of Brittini. That defense doesn’t fit with what is going on in the video. I think if they all said enough is enough then Brittini would have seen she was out numbered. But Mercades was good friends with Brittini. Well I don’t know what good friend means to mercades. Victoria was supposed to be a good friend and look what she did to her. Brittini was one of her best friends and she turned on her. So, I would not like to be considered a friend by this girl.

Victoria may well have done things you said above. She may have threatened to beat a couple of these girls up. However, their is no justification for what these girls did. If everyone who made a threat had this happen to them, things would be way out of control. Plus, it sounds like the victim is being blamed. I don’t care who she threatened. I don’t care if she smokes. And one beer can lead to a case. Nothing she did justifies what these girls did.

These girls act like Brittini had total control over them. What were they hanging around her for then? If I was scared of somebody I would stay away from them.

Mercades made bad choices. What do you think her punishment should be? She is violent as is seen by this and the ex-boyfriend charges. So how do we help violent people in jail. I don’t know.

I have said it before. I do not wish getting beat up on anybody. If these girls would have had one ounce of sympathy they may not be in this mess. Even if I was scared to death of Brittini, I could not have sat their and watched what was going on with her. I would have made me physicaly sick. They ALL actively participated in some way. Whether it be beating, filming, mentaly torturing or holding her captive. I can not find much sympathy or understanding for people like this. I don’t know if these girls can every be taught that. They should have known it before they got so out of hand.

What kind of terror do you think they put Victoria through? What kind of mental anguish, physical pain and fear? They didn’t care. She thought they were going to kill her. That should be the focus. I am tired of a society that cares more for the criminals then they do the victims.

I know I am a better person then these girls. Because, fear or not I could not have sat their and watched this vicious act. Especially on someone who thought I was their friend. It has not been proven that Victoria stoled anything from Mercades. Don’t forget Mercades started being real nice to her on the phone to get her to the house. She knew what was going to happen. Mercades lived their she could have just told everyone to go home. That is what I would have done. All I heard her saying on the video was “Don’t hit the shelf”. Wow that showed sympathy.

But, like I said before it is up to a jury. October will be here before you know it. They can decide with all the evidence provided to them what punishment fits the crime.

Good luck with school. GN

Reply
August 26, 2008

RJ

According to the Polk County Sheriff’s website which includes a mugshot and booking sheet on her, she was released on a surety bond 08/13 which means someone posted her bail with a bail bondsman. I’m guessing a family member probably put up their property on this one to get her out. It’s obvious to her family this girl can do no wrong and someone is going to have to be seriously injured or worse for her to be put away for a long time. She has no concept of what is right and wrong and could care less and her family is in effect re-enforcing this behavior. She is a ticking time-bomb.

Reply
August 26, 2008

RJ

The problems she will face going to a state facility for a period of time is that she has a big mouth which will quickly get her into trouble not only with staff but with other inmates. She will be put in her place quickly though.

Reply
August 27, 2008

Amyv

RJ – Mercades mom can not distinguish between right and wrong. So their is no chance of her learning from her. The grandmother was probably the one who had to put up her bond. I don’t think the mother has a dime to her name.

As for Mercades running her mouth in jail, I don’t think she will do that. She is a toughie around town but, one good look at the girls in prison and I think she will try real hard to keep to herself.

Reply
August 27, 2008

saxtongirl

Ok I just wanted to give some information out…I along with the rest of the world was horrified when I saw this video…just horrifed so I kepted getting updates on Victoria…After seeing her myspace she is doing just fine….I dont know anything about Mercades BUT Victoria was pregnant she had ultra sound pictures on her space. Her and her bf were going to get married Im not sure what happened with the baby she never came right out and said…but her bf dumped her and she moved right onto to someone else. She is out all the time partying all the time and Im not even sure if she lives at home. Her myspace is marked private now so you can only see her one comment about what she is doing but from what I can see all these girls need a stable home enviroment but unfortunately that is not the case. She seems to need constant attention from men and I feel sorry for her. I hope she is getting help mentally but I doubt it as she doesnt have anyone to point her in the right direction.

Reply
August 27, 2008

Amyv

Saxton girl – Kept checking throughout this ordeal on this myspace that supposedly belonged to Victoria. It said you had to be on her friends list to enter. Are you a friend? Her myspace has been private. Have not heard one word in the media about her being pregnant. And here we go again with she is out partying all of the time. How would you know that if you didn’t see her out. And, that would have to mean you are out partying all of the time.

Really doesn’t matter what she does. Actions of these girls inexcusable. What Victoria does not will not matter when this goes to trial. It will not help them get off for their terrible crimes.

I also hope as well she is living at home in a stable environment. And I hope she has some ‘true friends’to help her get through this ordeal.

As for her constantly needing attention from men, once again, you would have to be getting that information from somewhere. Perhaps one of her other ‘friends’. Anyway bashing the victim goes on deaf ears. And if will certainly not be good to bring up before a jury. Not a good defense at all for these girls. Wrong stradegy.

Reply
August 27, 2008

saxtongirl

Who is bashing? Im not! Like I said I feel sorry for her, I rather know that she is living in a safe enviroment! Her myspace wasnt private about 2 months ago…thats where I got my info. So no I didnt get it from her so called friends got it right from her. Im not sure why it wasnt in the media…I read it on her space…she even has a picture of her and her friends pointing at her with a comment that says “yeah Im the one who got beat up haha! She is a teenager and thats what they do in Flordia…go to the bars and get “crunk” as they call it…I dont care about that! I agree the actions of those stupid girls are unspeakable like I said before I was horrfied as I am a mom and couldnt imagine the pain. Im 41 yrs old and I know the signs of a insecue little girl wanting and needing attention. She doesnt know any better and I DO NOT look down on her for that I feel bad for her as she doesnt have someone or something to make her feel better about herself.

Reply
August 27, 2008

Amyv

saxtongirl – i also am a mother. I have a teenage daughter. I do not know if the myspace you saw was real or not. Their have many fake ones out their. I can’t imagine hers would be open to the public. Her family has kept very quiet. Not a word has been heard from her. I doubt very seriously that the page was authentic. It would be to these girls benefit for a myspace page like that to be public. I just don’t believe it was real.

I don’t think Florida is alone in teenage girls going out and getting drunk. That is across our country unfortunately.

Didn’t mean to sound defensive to you. On other websites they say all kind of things about Victoria that are completely not true. So please, take the myspace for what it is a fake. I can’t believe her attorney would let her make those comments. I think it is all made up to discredit her.

Reply
August 27, 2008

saxtongirl

Amy…we are all concern about victoria and whether you want to believe it or not is up to you I can give you the address if you would like and you can check it out everyday if you would like. She is a teenager and she has a myspace, she is being a kid and thats want we all want for her. How did I know you would bring up the Fla isnt the only ones…haha I knew it as soon as I typed it that I should have included the country but I figured you would know where I was coming from…anyway I wish her only the best that life has to offer she has had it tough

Reply
August 27, 2008

Amyv

saxtongirl – Sorry to have come down on you. This girl does deserve to have a myspace. I am still leary about whether it is authentic. Other ones have popped up in the past and have been proven to be bogus. The statement about ‘HaHa yes I am the girl who was beat up” bothers me. She has a very high powered attorney and I am sure she would advise strongly not to make such statements. Plus, this girl wants to forget this nightmare. So why play on it?

The problem I have with the page saying she is or was pregnant is, people were reporting on blogs she was pregnant when the fight occured.
They blogged that is the reason why these girls hit her in the face and not on her body. So, this is the second round of Victorias pregnant.

Please give me the info. so I can locate her myspace. I have tryed before and so have other bloggers and we can’t seem to find it. I just can’t imagine she would have it open to the public. Remember, Mercades had a false myspace page. They proved it did not belong to her. It did have pictures of her and looked authentic.

I too hope the best for Victoria. She will have to deal with this for along time and relive it in court. I can’t imagine her having to face these girls again.

Unfortunately, don’t know what state you are from. We have had a lot of bad things happening in Florida lately. It’s not really funny but when we turn on the news we all say I wonder where that happened? Florida. We have a rash of crimes going on down here. I love my state though and wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.

I do get defensive when things are said about victims in a case. It seems like that happens so much anymore. Even murder victims. I know you don’t mean to bash her. The system is so geared towards criminals rights and not the rights of victims (i.e. Casey Anthony). Have a good day.

Reply
August 28, 2008

saxtongirl

I understand completely. I was angered by what happened to her, Im glad to see that she is enjoying life now as a reg girl and I dont want to even get into casey anthony…Its a sad story anyway you look at it. Anyway her space is not open to the public as it was a few months ago but here it is.. .www.myspace.com/305586258, Ill be watching for those dimwits when the trial finally comes around, I hope they all get to do some time but your right the system sometimes just doesnt get it right:( Have a great weekend…thanks for chatting!

Reply
August 28, 2008

RJ

satongirl – That is NOT her real myspace page. Some moron is obviously cloning. This is her real page… http://www.myspace.com/312823289

Reply
August 28, 2008

RJ

Sorry I got your name wrong I meant Saxtongirl.

Reply
August 28, 2008

RJ

Must have had my previous comments not added but here it goes again…… Saxtongirl that myspace is a clone page…. Here is her real page….. http://www.myspace.com/312823289

Reply
August 29, 2008

Amyv

RJ -That has been the original myspace since this whole incident started. Their ought to be something you can do about cloning someones my space. It is all done in a futual attempt to make this girl look bad.

It would never make sense for this girl to have a myspace page open to the public. I don’t believe she was ever pregnant. I don’t believe she would ever make a comment saying she is the girl that got beat up.

Her stepmother and father said this has done a lot of emotional damage to her. She does not want to be remembered for being the girl that got beat up. I am sure she has a lot of problems with these tapes of the beating being made public. I hope she still does not suffer from the nightmares she was having following this vicious attack.

Once again, I wish the trials would being. This poor girl deserves justice.

Reply
August 29, 2008

gompertz

Amy-Some posts suggest it may be years before it goes to trial because of the serious nature of the charges. They also say the constant delays could actually help the prosecution. The victim and the defendants have had their lives put on hold. Wouldn’t it make sense for the defense to try for a plea deal and get it over with?

Reply
August 29, 2008

gompertz

More to the point, has anyone been offered a plea deal yet?

Reply
August 29, 2008

Electronica

sax is right toris got a new myspace shes not using the old one. its real shes been changing pics a lot and ive seen the private pics too long ago.

toris dating a lot but i dont think thats wrong.

some ppl say the baby was not with her bf so he dumped her and she decided not to have the baby.
some ppl say she was never pregnant she just made it up to get her bf to marry her or maybe just forfun.

ive seen the belly pictures it doesnt have to be hers she couldhave dl fromthe net you know.

Reply
August 29, 2008

Electronica

oh and amyv i guess youllnever understand me.

i say that if tori broke the law a lot i dont think of her as a criminal and i care that she got beat up.

and i say even if some of the girls broke the law i still think theyr not real criminals and i care if they get beat up.

and some girls like cara and i think kayla and merc didnt even break the law they just didnt act right.

Reply
August 29, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – You have just done what you are accusing others of doing. Making assumptions about Victoria, like you say people do about the victims. Their is no concrete evidence she was pregnant. That we know of. To assume maybe she made it up or it wasn’t her boyfriends it what you accuse others of doing to the victims.

We can go their with Mercades as well. Maybe she was never pregnant. Maybe her boyfriend was going to break up with her so she claimed to be pregnant to keep him. Maybe it wasn’t even his baby.

Cara did not break the law you are right. Moral laws yes criminal no. Mercades drove the car they forced Victoria into after the beating. She also blocked Victoria from leaving the house. She did break the law. Kayla hit Victoria so was an active participant in the beating. Doesn’t matter how many times she hit her or why. She did break the law. So two out of three did break criminal laws. As for Victoria she has not been arrested for anything so I don’t know if she has ever broken the law.

The good thing about disagreeing like we do is we do it in a healthy way. We don’t get nasty with each other, we just discuss our different points of view. That is a healthy way to handle differences.

Please believe me I do not wish for anyone else to get beaten. But, as I have told you before I do think they deserve legal punishment. If I had my way no one for any reason would ever hit another person again. But, in todays world that is just a dream. Also, don’t have access to Victorias web site since it has been private since after this case. So assuming some people have access I don’t.

As long as they have the tape, they can take all of the time they want. Yes memories fade but, the video will refresh the juries memory immediately.

Gompertz – I have not heard anything about any plea deals. I do believe they may have offered Cara one since she was set free and will testify.
I think they have enough evidence to where they have no reason to offer plea deals.

El – hope school is going well. Even if our opinions are different, I do believe we have the same core values. gn

Reply
August 30, 2008

Electronica

amyv you accuse me of stuff i dint do. it makes me sad.

i only reprted what ppl are saying not what im saying. and i gave two versions so why do you pick one and accuse me of saying its true? pls read again what i wrote. your not fair to me.

oh and school didnt start yet it will soon.

Reply
August 30, 2008

Garland

If any of you believe that Victoria’s new profile is real, I got some tropical land to sell you. Why would Victoria go &amp create a new profile embarassing herself, when she’s trying to avoid all of this nonsense with the media? Notice that she hasn’t gone on any talk shows, or any of that matter to discuss that incident. Plus her lifestyle should be none of our business whatsoever.

Reply
August 30, 2008

gompertz

Thank you, Garland, I agree totally. This young lady obviously does not seek publicity and wants to get on with her life. There are many points about these events that we can argue about, but as for Victoria herself,we need to respect her right to privacy.

Reply
August 30, 2008

gompertz

Amy and Electronica both make good points about Mercades. I don’t know these people, so all I can do is think back to the 60’s when I was their age, and remember how young people behaved then. I don’t think the troubles with the BF are as serious as some think, taken by themselves. Powerful emotions lead young people to act very badly, but I see little evidence of any “slippery slope” that makes people inevitably go from bad to worse. But that’s just my experience, limited as it is. As for “bumper car” games, I remember girls from the local motorcycle clubs running each other off the road and wrecking their cars, all over some guy. Police didn’t get involved much, since they were just “trashy biker chicks” and of no consequence. Also, it would be considered dishonorable for guys to go to the authorities if their girl friends got violent, as long as they didn’t use a gun. But those were different times. You see, I can excuse all that, because Mercades’ sin is not violence, but treachery. She betrayed her close friend, and that must hurt far worse than the actual beating. I don’t know about the kidnapping and obstruction, I leave that to the courts. Her double-crossing cowardly behavior speaks for itself. And as for those “trashy biker chicks” I just mentioned? I knew some of them pretty well. They were violent and sleazy and you might be missing your wallet. But this I am sure of, from knowing them. Not one of them would have sat there and let a friend be beaten like that. They would have intervened forcefully, even if it cost them their life.

Reply
August 30, 2008

Amyv

Electronic – Please accept my apology if you think I am being unfair to you. It is not you that I meant to point a finger at. I just was trying to show what all of the rumors flying around can mean. I was trying to make a point that she may never have been pregnant at all these are just rumors started.

We can’t even be sure if Mercades was pregnant. I still don’t think their are any sources, besides her mother, to back that up. So I am not picking one scenario from what you were saying and jumping on it. I am trying to look at the whole picture. I am trying just to stick with the facts in the case. Not so easy sometimes.
El – I have had five different teenagers living at my house at different times during the past three years. They are friends of my daughter’s and are from very dysfuctional families. It breaks my heart these kids don’t have any guidance. The main rule when they stay here is no fighting. ever. If it is in self defense, that would not be their fault. But, when I start hearing trash talking I sit them down and tell them that is not allowed under my roof. Don’t mean to get personal just wanted to let you know I am not clueless to what teenagers go through today. I hear them talk about all the fights at school. I hear them talking about all of the meetings to fight at the local park. I got a good education on just how much the violence has escalated. And that also breaks my heart.

Garland – Could not agree with you more. lol on the first line. She has been quiet. She has kept a low profile. She has never talked to the media, except that article in people’s magazine. It does not make sense she would want the whole world knowing even more of her business. Also, agree with you and Gump that her lifestyle is not anyones business. She deserves to go on with her life and put this behind her. It makes no sense what so ever for her to have a public myspace. And, my comment is if you believe that one I have some swamp land in Fla to sell you.

Gompertz – I have to disagree with you on bumper cars. This is a dangerous action and could kill someone. So I do feel that is a criminal offense. If you are charged in a road rage case trying to run someone off the road it is criminal. And, if it considered a “game” the stakes are too high. Sorry, that the police did not find these girls worthy enough to act on these actions. But, thank God times have changed a lot with that.
I did not grow up in the 60’s. My experience stems from the later 70’s and beginning 80’s. So their is a difference in the two generations. So much was going on in the 60’s it was like a whole different world. The 70’s seemed to be a more laid back time. My generation was by no means
perfect. Far from it. Actually, I think we were maybe the lazy in between teenagers lol.
So I do feel this was a crime. Whether it is a male or female you are trying to run off the road, makes no difference. That is what women fought for. Equal rights. So that is the way it should be. It does make you wonder though, because we still live in a macho society, just how ruthless this girl can be. I am sure it was not an easy decision to make for him to ask for help. But, he obviously needed it. She threatened to have a “group” or boys beat him up. This girls loves groups doesn’t she. She asked another boy to beat him up and to break up him and his new girlfriend. Money even exchanged hands on that one. She was a threat to his new girlfriend. So, yes her activies are criminal in both cases.

I do strongly agree with you that she is definitely guilty of treachery. That is what makes this case even sadder for the victim. One of your best friends turns on you. That has got to add a lot to her emotional pain and suffering. NEVER and I repeat NEVER would me or one of my friends not defend each other to the end. It is cowardly beyond words. I to knew some toughie girls in my neighborhood. And, even if they weren’t your best friends, they would have your back. I can not imagine how that must effect Victoria’s trust of people. You can hear her saying Mercades you are supposed to be my friend. It is truely heart breaking and I can’t emphasize enough how cowardly Mercades is. This also shows more of her lack of morals or any empathy for others. I think she is on a downward slope. Sorry long winded today.

Reply
August 31, 2008

gompertz

Amy – I didn’t mean to give the impression that I took the car incident lightly. I have encountered this kind of thing myself on the road and it can be quite traumatic. I do not condone violence in any form. If there were times when I accepted violence directed against myself, especially from young women, that was just how it was at that time and place and I do not recommend anyone today following my example. Today the police take road rage and bumper cars far more seriously, but I wonder how different things really are. I used the expression “”trashy biker chicks” simply to characterize the attitudes of people who consider themselves respectable. Never in these posts or anywhere have I refer to anyone as “trailer trash” or “white trash” though many people use these terms without seeing anything wrong with it. Stereotyping by class or race or where you live is of course wrong. Many good and decent people live in trailers, I think it goes without saying. What these people did was simply wrong, whether their families are rich or poor.

Reply
August 31, 2008

gompertz

I was making the point that people who were not considered respectable and indulged in low level crime still had a sense of honor, which seemed to be missing in Mercades. Now I really need to get to sleep.gn

Reply
August 31, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I agree the use of the word trailer trash should not be used. I myself have been guilty of that one. But, to me it was meant more about their low behavior, not economics.

Actually, I think if these girls came from alot of money, it would be in the news even more. They would considered spoiled rich kids who thought themselves above the law.

I don’t care if these girls have a penny or a milllion dollars. Their crimes are the same. As a matter of fact sometimes they use their economic status as an excuse for their behavior. I don’t mean in this case in particular.

You are right Mercades in lacking so many fundamental values. Honor is a foreign word to any of these girls. So is sympathy, civilized, empathy and many others. Their lack so many basic values.

That age old saying “who needs enemies when you have friends like this” seems to fit perfectly in this case. That is one of hardest things to get over is betrayal by best friend. In this case I even imagine the emotion toll that has taken on the victim. I don’t think anyone would be lining up to be one of Mercades best friends. Good luck to anyone who may be in the path of these storms. Hopefully none of you. off subject my prayers for people in New Orleans.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Electronica

garl you coudnt sell me a lightbulb from the brooklyn bridge if you tried. myspace doesnt mean you wanne be on tv, its just like having a cell phone is all. and she didnt do anything wrong on it if you dont like what she wrote or the pictures its not her problem.

and i knew about it long ago but didnt post about it. only now sax gave out the url here.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Electronica

amyv ok.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – at first I thought you were talking to me with your first line. Thought I hurt your feelings again. Don’t ever want to hurt anyones feelings. Just differences of opinion.

I just find it really hard to imagine she would post “yea, I am the girl that got beat up”. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Especially if you know people are looking for your myspace and its very public. It sure wouldn’t be like other teenagers who people have no interest in looking on their myspace unless they know them. She is in the spotlight that way.

And it just woundn’t fit with her keeping such a low profile. I am sure she has been approached by everybody and their brother to be on one of these talk shows. She has choosen not to do that. And I am sure they would pay big for her story. I commend her and her family for not going that route.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Scott

You can’t trust anything from myspace. Tori’s stepmother Talisa said from the beginning that Tori had her myspace account hacked into numerous times and they asked her to delete the account. But I don’t think she deleted the acount until after the assault.

Until I see real reports that Tori is expecting, in college or back at work I won’t believe it.

And it’s sad that the trial is still being delayed. This doesn’t so anyone any good. There is no more information to gather so the trail should have been underway by now. If the video was never turned over I bet the trial would have happened by now. But without the video there might not have even been a trial.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Electronica

amyv im ok. you misunderstood me but said sorry so im fine. its ok to not agree with me or even say im stupid. i just get mad when ppl think i said stuff i didnt say thats how trouble starts.

Reply
August 31, 2008

Amyv

El – I would never say you are stupid. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion about things. People are not going to agree on everything. That is what makes us all unique.

I have had experiences you haven’t and you have had experiences I haven’t. I think that is what makes people look are an incident like this so differently. We all do agree on the most basic aspect and that is these girls did wrong. Terribly wrong. Our differences are on how we think they should pay for their crimes.

Everyone had the same opnion how could you have get an impartial jury for any case. So some people will be disappointed with the verdict and some people will think it is dead on.

I know I myself have confused people on the blog at different times or been misunderstood. It is harder to read between the lines when you are typing something. I just think their is no good outcome that will ever come from this case. I wish the impossible. That these kind of things never happened. I guess that sounds like John Lennon’s song imagine. lol. Just to much hatred going on in this world.

Scott -I also agree with you. Victorias mother did say she was having problems with hackers. I am just assuming but I think we can all figure out who those people were. And with her dad saying myspace was the anti-christ for children I still believe it would never be open to the public. But, in the long run it isn’t really relevant to the case.

I agree their is no more evidence to be obtained in this case. This trial should be over by now. It is just the system dragging its feet. Hopefully, some closure will come from this soon. At some point a judge has got to say enough is enough. No more stalling on this. It’s not like they are waiting on any new information. Just need to get it over with.

Reply
September 2, 2008

Garland

*Agrees with both Scott &amp Amy*.

I honestly think that they should get this case done &amp over with. What could be taking them so long? It’s already been 5 months since this incident happened &amp nothing has been resolved yet. Enough with the delays. There’s nothing new to be gained.

Reply
September 2, 2008

M. Hutchence

I second that. The delay in this case already proves what a joke our judicial system is. I don’t get to see too much court action, but let me tell you all, the kids i work with who come from inner cities on gang related crimes, pretty much get caught, busted and incarcerated within days of whatever it is they have done. This delay is just as sickening as the crime.

Reply
September 2, 2008

Amyv

Garland and Hutch – Why is this case taking so long? I am no where near being an expert of the legal system. However, this case seem like what they call a slam dunk. This does not shed a good light on our justice system. It takes way to long to bring criminals to justice.

Reply
September 2, 2008

Scott

Hutch makes a good point about how inner city criminals get arrested and go to trial soon after the arrest. It’s already been over 5 months since Tori was assaulted and there’s a 30 minute video of the assault and there’s still no trial in sight. It would be funny if it wasn’t such a disgrace.

Reply
September 3, 2008

Greg

I’ve come to the conclusion that the best technology we have to help girls like Mercades Nichols is operant conditioning. And for those who don’t know how operant conditioning works:

Everybody wants something, figure out what they want and use that as a reward.

In Positive Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of experiencing a positive condition. For example:

A hungry rat presses a bar in its cage and receives food. The food is a positive condition for the hungry rat. The rat presses the bar again, and again receives food.

The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of receiving food.

In Negative Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition. For example:

A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again theshock stops. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.

In Punishment a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of experiencing a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is anegative condition for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again receives a shock. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of receiving a shock.

In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.

&ldquoIn Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.&rdquo

If someone were to save Victoria and experienced extinction, instead of positive reinforcement, there is no incentive for them to continue with this behavior.

&ldquoA rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.&rdquo

The bullying creates a shock to the victim which is only ended when the victim fights back, thereby creating a shock to the bully. Bullying in school is conditioning children like Victoria who may start off embracing non violence, into adults who learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

Thus bullying helps to produce war and violence, which gets blamed on Video Games, Music Videos, and Myspace rather than the very bullies who are conditioning kids into becoming violent adults. Anyone who has been bullied knows exactly what I&rsquom talking about because they have experienced this conditioning.

When are we going to end it?

Reply
September 3, 2008

Greg

The begin to implement the solution, one has to identify both potential bullies, and potential hero’s.

The physically biggest, the smartest, the most popular, these kids are either potential bullies or potential heroes. It’s these kids who have the ‘power’, who we must approach at a young enough age to properly train them on how to use their power for the right reasons.

Martial arts is one way to do it. By identifying the big/smart kids, we can then see that some of these kids aren’t bad kids and select them for special training to turn a them into a hero. So they get taught martial arts because they aren’t a bully and they are also strong enough to take on those who are. The best time to approach a person is right after their first experience with a bully, while they are still in a state of “shock”.

An older kid or young adult who was bullied themselves as a kid, should approach them and mentor them, offer them martial arts training. This should include physical techniques, but also the mental techniques such as meditation and visualization so that they may be both physically strong and mentally strong. These kids should act as guardians similar to Plato’s guardians, they guard the weak and defenseless when they see the weak and defenseless being bullied.

Think of a big kid like Shaq would have been, a kid big enough to make all the kids in the school fear them, but respected by the smaller kids. Or think of a popular kid who isn’t big, but who everyone likes and who has political influence and is very smart.

Now how to deal with the actual bullies? I don’t think bullies should be beat up or jumped by the guardians unless they break the rules such as the situation of 6vs1. Any fighting which is not 1vs1 in my opinion is a breaking of the rules. A duel is a duel, and if Victoria and her enemy must have a duel, it should always be 1 vs 1, and ideally it should have been in a boxing ring or sparring ring and not in a house. Those who break the rules of the guardians would risk being jumped and beat up by a gang of martial arts instructors. And afterwards Victoria the victim should be offered a chance to be recruited.

As for adults, adults should reward the heroes who defend the weak with rewards as a way to keep them doing it. If you run the martial arts school you reward the students who prevent violence without use of force the most. And as the situation becomes more and more violent the reward should change in nature in response, because ideally we want to promote peace not war.

If I were a kid, and a trained martial artist, I would be capable of defending or even providing protection duty to someone like Victoria, but i would only do this if there were some reward in it for me. The parents of Victoria should have been able to go to my martial arts instructor and explain that Victoria needs a guardian, that she’s being threatened, and then assign me to protect her. And of course I should be rewarded for this, if they don’t have the money to donate to my martial arts academy, they could promise to get me a job working for them or their friends, but a deal could easily be arranged.

This system is a very simple way to solve a very simple problem. It’s going to take operant conditioning and training people to stand up and defend the defenseless, and there is no way around it, this is not going to be free.

Reply
September 3, 2008

Greg

Operant conditioning (sometimes referred to as instrumental conditioning) is a method of learning that occurs through rewards and punishments for behavior. Through operant conditioning, an association is made between a behavior and a consequence for that behavior.

Examples of Operant Conditioning

We can find examples of operant conditioning at work all around us, such as children completing homework to earn a reward from a parent or teacher or employees finishing projects to receive praise or promotions. In these examples, the promise or possibility of rewards causes an increase in behavior, but operant conditioning can also be used to decrease a behavior. The removal of an undesirable outcome or the use of punishment can be used to decrease or prevent undesirable behaviors. For example, a child may be told they will lose recess privileges if they talk out of turn in class. This potential for punishment may lead to a decrease in disruptive behaviors.

Reply
September 3, 2008

M. Hutchence

Greg you are right on. My personal experience:

From pre school to 4th grade, i went to a private school. My family was well off at the time. Aside from boxing on TV I had no idea what violence was. Then, by 5th grade my father passed and we went broke. I had to start attending public school. the first year was hell. I got mugged pretty much daily, I remember getting dunked in the toilet and too many times to count, punched up. I remember trying to tell some of the teachers. The bullies would be warned, but then only had it out for me worse. they just found out other ways to ambush me outside of campus on the walk home etc.

By the way, much of what i saw on that horrible video reminded me of some of the beatings i took. Where you are isolated, surrounded and getting spit on and punched for what seems like hours.

Anyway, with a week to go before summer vaca
I was approached by 3 brothers who sat me down. The youngest one was my age and he said, “We’re tired of watching you get your ass kicked, you want to learn something valuable?”

Within days i was tagging along with them to take an Israeli based self defense system.
I saw some familiar faces in those classes, some good, some bad, but I made a lot of great alliances and learned what real discipline is. By the end of Summer I had no real problems. We stayed poor all the way through my high school years. By then i had grown to 6’1 and had 4 good years of training, which at that time, i was doing almost every night. I never had a problem and have always advocated that all kids should get into a self defense program as early as you would teach them to swim. A good one too, where the instructors throw them out of class if it looks like they are going to abuse their skill.

As for this trial taking so long, most likely due to the fact that the media was heavily involved at the onset. High end attorneys take interest in cases like this, and i am betting that the defense is hoping it will be a highly visible trial, which would gain them noteriety and more $$$$$

Reply
September 3, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I am by far no expert in psychology. However, found it fascinating in college so do remember some of the terms you are using.

The postive reinforcement for these girls is they got self satisfaction out of bullying, beating and terrorizing this girl. Since they have been known to bully in the past, this must be a common “good feeling for them”.

We all know when you are younger positive reinforcements are easily applied. Get an A you will get a reward. Disobey and face some sort of punishment (never believed in hitting). But, the mind of a child is much easier to manipulate than that of a teenager or an adult.

All of these studies on animals and positive and negative reinforcement having been going on for years. But, has anyone come any closer to applying it to human behavior? It is easy to train an animal that if an action causes ain they should stop. Or if it will reward them with food they will continue. That would be basic instincts.

I don’t feel that science has come up with any useful information with these experiments on animals. Except for what should be obvious. How many studies need to be done on animals (that are cruel) before they come to the same conclusion they have had for years. It is simply basic instinct and nothing more. Do something that hurts, you will stop. If your hungry and do something and get food you will do it. Nothing new learned here. No big surprise. And where has it been used benefit human beings?

As I state before these girls are already getting their positive reinforcement for their behavior. They negative reinforcement will be jail time. Have any other suggestions? Please say what should be done right now to stop these girls behavior. Not what stops rats behavior.

Hutchene – In a perfect world your examples would stop a lot of bullying. However, if people stuck up for the smaller and weaker we could do away with some of this bullying. But, that has not been the case unfortunately for years. Now, we have the extra incentive of taping things and putting them on the computer for them to even get more satisfaction. As for punching a bully in the face that is what some of these girls wanted. They wanted her to fight back, just so they would have a reason to beat her more. If she would have hit Brittini square in the mouth, the bigger girl just would have wailed into her more. Brittini’s knuckles were already bleeding from hitting Victoria, that didn’t seem to bother her a bit.

So to stop some of this bullying the schools must be more active. Going to report to the property authorities and having no action taken is not acceptable. Parents must be involved. If they find out their kids are being bullied or are involved in bullying, action should be taken at home. A step further, if it escalates police should be involved. You harm someone you to to jail. Lets get back to what was supposed to be started in all schools ZERO tolerance for bullying. They can afford to put up cameras at red lights to ticket people for going through, put them all over the schools.

I you go through the internet you can find multiple fights. Adults start going through and flagging them. Come up with a policy to get these taken off and make it illegal. Enough is enough. Teenagers to not rule society. Although, that is the direction it seems to be taking. Send these kids to a scared straight program at the first sign of bullying.

These girls should probably go to boot camp for a year. Let them try to mouth of their. As for martial arts. Bullies can take those programs to. That would make them even more dangerous. We have become a society that is excepting violence as a way of life. This needs to stop.

Reply
September 4, 2008

Greg

“And where has it been used benefit human beings?”

In the military if you obey orders you get rewarded with rank, medals, and other benefits and if you disobey you get dishonorably discharged.

In prison you get privileges for having good behavior and you get sent to the hole for bad behavior. They increase the privileges of the model inmates while decreasing the privileges of the inmates who cause problems.

Capitalism itself is supposed to be a tool to reward good behavior, it was invented for that purpose. However due to the stupidity of our society, we keep rewarding bad behavior while punishing good behavior. A perfect example is the income tax which punishes everyone equally, rather than taxing people based on how irresponsible they are.

The reason we have bullying is not because operant conditioning does not work. It seems to work fine for our bosses who use it on us to make us go to work each day. It seems to work for fine the generals. It seems to work fine for the prison warden. The problem is it’s not working for parents, and this is because parents are too soft on their children and now they fear their own kids.

The techniques are perfect, the science is correct, we just lack the guts to apply it. You don’t believe in hitting your children? Yet you still buy the bad kid gifts for xmas? Spanking was the way that previous generations handled this, it was the stick while allowance was the carrot.

What we have done is abandoned the stick, and then we irresponsibly have given every kid the carrot. Why was Mercades given a cellphone? She doesn’t appear to have a job and even if she does she probably cannot afford a cellphone, and all of these privileges.

Why did her parents buy her a car? She’s spoiled. She’s a spoiled brat who was given all this stuff to abuse and bully people with. It’s directly her parents fault for training her into being a bully.

On the other hand we don’t do much to teach the concept of reward and punishment to parents. All training and teaching is based on operant conditioning. Kids have nothing to fear from being bad and nothing to gain by being good.

“They wanted her to fight back, just so they would have a reason to beat her more.”

She still should have fought back. Even if it were 12 on 1 she should have fought back. If you don’t fight back then they’ll beat you up every day because they’ll feel like they were rewarded by beating you up, but if you fight back then it helps to condition the bully to expect to take a black eye in order to give one. In this case it was 6 on 1, in this case Victoria should have hired some bodyguards, but I don’t think she ever saw it coming.

And about martial arts, sure bullies can become martial artists, but who do you think will be learning the true techniques from the master?

If you were the master would you teach your secrets to the bullies? Sure you’d teach basic punching and kicking, but not the secret techniques.

Reply
September 4, 2008

gompertz

Yes! I say if they keep dragging their feet down there, we send a posse to Bartow courthouse and mete out some rough frontier justice! Seriously, I don’t have much time these days, just a few footnotes to the discussion. I believe the idea of a society organized in a way analogous to Plato’s republic is good, if augmented by the practical application of martial arts, taught by true teachers. In old China, these methods were closely guarded secrets. Nowadays, martial arts schools are proliferating like Starbucks, leading to the corruption of the teaching and sometimes disasterfor their students. Just imagine Mercades or Brittani taking lessons in qi gong meditation from unqualified teachers (a true master would surely refuse to accept them as students). No proper guidance, no preparation, and improper motivation. What result? The poor girls would end up with an incurable psychosis (or demonic possession maybe), if they are not already there. Hopefully there are enough true teachers to work at the grassroot level to restore the integrity of the teachings and use them for the greater good. Greg, I must say that I do share Amy’s concern with transferring results of animal testing to humans. Animals act on instinctive needs. Though the attack on Victoria was termed “animalistic” that was really unfair to the animals. The kind of refined sadistic cruelty shown by the attackers must offer a level of sick enjoyment that requires more drastic types of reinforcement than what works with animals. As usual I have more questions than answers. Now, about that posse…

Reply
September 5, 2008

M. Hutchence

I disagree Amy.

In my experience, if anyone exemplified they were going to use their skills to bully, they were kicked out of the program. We were taught to be tempered, cooperation etc, not just to drill each other

My training saved my life and my dignity.

Reply
September 5, 2008

Amyv

I am not saying martial arts is a bad thing. If taken for the right reason it has many postive effects. Discipline, control and can channel negative energy into a positive experience. I do know people who take martial arts. They do learn how to defend themselves. However, it is never to be used as I am a “bad ass” now. This is my problem how do you weed out the people who will use this just to become a bigger bully?

It is very difficult even for an experienced person not to be fooled by people? Ex: Ted Bundy. People can appear totally different than their true personalities. I think martial arts is a wonderful training tool for many things, not just defense.

Greg – You are saying each indivial person should be studied i.e. of what makes them tick. For lack of a better word. Gompertz already stated what my fears are about this. Their are martial art studios around every corner. You may not always have an instructor who weeds out the ones who will not use it properly.

Emotions are also involved in our training. That is why I think the research on animals will benefit us no further. However, I caught the very end of the news tonight and saw something that made me think of. Unfortunately, I did not hear the whole segment. I will try to get you further information. An institute in Florida has ellicited experts in several different fields to start up a program on what is causing the rise in teenage violence. They have just started this up. This I think will be much more beneficial than further studies on animals.

As for my beliefs on spanking, it is just not the choice of punishment I was brought up with and it doesn’t work on every individual child. You should definitely agree with that one. Since you do believe different rewards or punishments should be individualized. I do not just reward. My punishment was restriction when I was younger. I would have rather had a spanking. I loved to be outside so much. This also works with my child. So the old saying spare the rod spoil the child does not apply to everyone.

I never saw anywhere that said Mercades had her own cellphone. Victoria was asking one of the other girls for her cellphone. Also, Mercades uses her grandmothers car. Not her own. So even though children are given way to many material things these days, the ones who can’t afford these things bully as well. I do agree teenagers are not taught responsibility properly like we were. That is a basic issue parents should start addressing.

Hutchene – You apparently used your training in a responsible and much needed situation. That shows a certain character that these girls do not seem to possess. This is the way martial arts was intended to be utilized.

Gompertz – I can’t say it enough their is to much dragging their feet in this case. Slam dunk. It should be over. Our posse down here is busy with the Caylee Anthony story. As well they should be.

I will never agree that Victoria should have fought back. She did not see it coming. She was ambushed. This wasn’t just your regular jumping. She was trapped in a house. Surprised and surrounded. Scared for her LIFE. Beaten and mentally abused over half a hour. Had a concussion they believe started from the first jump. So that would make it even harder to focus. Betrayed by a friend she thought would help her. Was taped. I can not imagine the amount of shear terror this girl was going through. They mercilessly did not let up on her. Mentally or physicaly. I think if she would have hit Brittini back, that girl would have killed her.
Unless, you yourself were ever put in this situation you don’t know what you would do. People are always saying “she should have fought back”. These very same people given the same conditions would have probably done the same thing.

These girls are cruel beyond my comprehension and I really don’t care what makes them so sick. Punishment is jail period. Their is no other deterent for people like them that do not possess the basic human qualities. Sympathy and empathy were not shown by one single girl in this group. How do you teach someone these characteristics? I don’t have the answer. I wish I did. But it is way overdue for their punishment.

Reply
September 5, 2008

gompertz

Many points to discuss here. Amy, I agree about Victoria not fighting back. But I don’t think it’s a question of whether she should have, but whether she could have. Recently I watched that sickening video again, after several months. Watching it now I get the feeling she is a gentle person who just doesn’t want to fight. She was taken by surprise and just froze because she is not a fighter. On other blogs they discuss what factors led her to reason that it was better not to fight back. I don’t think rational calculation entered into it. Especially when the beating continued and she feared for her life. Amy, I remember you made the point about that picture they took of her toward the end(by BH I believe), that she seemed resigned to whatever was to come. And isn’t that exactly the kind of victim that bullies look for,the kind that won’t fight back? Now as for the uses of martial arts, I cannot speak for Greg but only try to clarify some points. I think it is not just the use of martial arts as a method for individual enhancement, but to organize a group of martial artists dedicated to enforcing the principles of operant conditioning. As the experience of M. Hutchence shows, there are still many honorable people in the martial arts schools. It is not uncommon for students to be expelled for refusing discipline and demonstrating aggressive behavior. Unfortunately, many schools do not adhere to these standards. Is there a criterion by which we can distinguish? The theory is that those without proper character and motivation would fail to reach the higher levels of skill. That was my point about Mercades going crazy if an unqualified person were to attempt to attain those higher levels. Those who do attain these higher levels would not only be superior fighters but would (sometimes) transcend the need for monetary rewards. These people would then work to organize society according to scientific principles. For most, even those who may be called “guardians” would still be better off with monetary recompense for their contributions. Imagine one appointed to be guardian to someone he found very attractive, and decided he would do it for free. Then he is assigned to someone he finds less attractive and expects money. This obvious example shows the dangers of leaving things to subjective judgments. Better the guardian should do his job and take the paycheck. Then he could always donate the money to a worthy cause, like a victim’s rights organization. I don’t know if I have clarified anything or not, I leave it to someone else to decide.

Reply
September 5, 2008

gompertz

Just thought of one more point, concerning Victoria’s alleged threat to beat people up. This is just a conjecture but it seems to fit. I have noticed that people of a peaceful nature sometimes act out verbally with aggressive statements. To them it is just talk which they would never dream of translating into action, not realizing that violent people will take such statements as a provocation to retaliate. Like the Adam Baldwin character in Full Metal Jacket, violent people are always challenging you by saying of you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. Well, actually, you don’t. In some cultures there seems to be a level of aggression in everyday affairs which needs to be mitigated by obligatory rules of polite speech, lest someone is offended by a perceived lack of respect. Possibly, ancient Japan under the Samurai code. The Japanese language is structured around rigid rules of polite verbal forms and honorifics, and failure to observe these rules would be considered rude and could lead to trouble. I remember in the video they told Victoria several times she was being rude. Violent people are easily offended! She may well have said things that could be considered provocative by people looking to be provoked. But peaceful people may say these things in innocence, not trying to provoke.

Reply
September 5, 2008

Greg

“This is my problem how do you weed out the people who will use this just to become a bigger bully?”

Just as our psychologists and psychiatrists have been training to detect the different personality types, martial artists have had their own personality tests which have been working for thousands of years. I’d say that the eastern system has better psychological profiling than the western system and its proved by the fact that China at least, was relatively controlled and is the single oldest civilization on earth today.

The master is always testing the student. The master knows which students are loyal to him and which students are disloyal. The master knows the psychological profile and personality types of each student. The master knows which students attempt to provoke confrontation and which students attempt to avoid them.

A student is supposed to bring honor to their school and respect their master. Students who bully will make the school look bad and the students will report that to the master who will reward the loyal students with the most secret techniques.

Basically, if a bully goes to become a martial artist just to learn to bully people, they might learn how to punch and kick, they might learn how to break bones, but they probably wont be taught how to heal, how to work with ancient medicine, how to do the sorts of things which require the personality type that the master spent years of his life developing.

People who know how to kick and punch are not martial artists in my opinion, they are fighters. They could go on MMA or do some kickboxing and win awards for fighting, but they are never taught the true techniques.

True martial artists learn to kill not just with their fist and feet, but with all sorts of weapons, some which are secret and some which are public. A man who can only kick and punch is among the easiest defeated, because they haven’t took the time to read the art of war by Sun Tzu, they don’t know how to test their peers or judge character because the master will never teach them this. Eventually the bully will have nobody they can trust because the only people who will be friends with them are other bullies. And they’ll have nobody who respects them because nobody respects a bully, instead everyone would simply fear them.

I think martial arts is a wonderful training tool for many things, not just defense.

My point of this rant is that martial artists do have psychological profiling to catch the Ted Bundy types, and I’m simply stating that the martial arts profiling is BETTER than the western profiling. It’s not like western psychologists are the first or only people to do this, the western people were actually the last civilization to do this and thats why the majority of these sorts of problems is taking place in western countries.

“Their are martial art studios around every corner. You may not always have an instructor who weeds out the ones who will not use it properly.”

It was not always this way. Martial arts master Bruce Lee is rumored to have been killed for teaching secrets to the masses. Now today martial arts is taught as some kind of franchise, but still the secret techniques are not taught to just anyone. You can learn all of the basic techniques and become a very good fighter physically, but you wont learn the art of fighting without fighting, you wont learn psychological warfare techniques, you wont learn how to strengthen your mind. Certain techniques are still passed down through clan and are never taught to the masses. Some techniques are passed down to very few people within the masters most trusted circle and it’s been this way for centuries, sure these techniques leak out but they are still rare enough to be useful.

Martial arts is a family tradition. It used to be that certain clans would unite behind a martial arts academy and all of their offspring would be sent there to be trained. The USA has no concept of martial arts training besides the US military. Young boys and girls have nowhere to go to learn how to fight physically and intellectually, and most fighting is not even going to be physical but intellectual.

To put it simply, a lot of kids are wimps, psychologically and physically, and we are doing absolutely nothing about it even though it indirectly reduces our national security. Most of the kids growing up today are emotionally weak and psychologically weak and that is why they resort to violence. Their feelings were hurt by something they heard or read on the internet and they flipped out and decided to kick some ass and post it on the internet. Part of profiling a personality is discovering an individuals strengths and weaknesses. A person could be physically strong, but psychologically so weak that they aren’t going to be useful for anything other than physical violence and intimidation.

Reply
September 5, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I think the only one who showed dignity and honor throughout this whole ordeal was Victoria. Would she have fought back if it was one on one probably. Even a peaceful person will defend themselves. I know I would. So, even the most peaceful people will protect themselves if it is absolutely necessary.

You are right sometimes things are said that you don’t ever intend to act on. But, these girls are making it seem like she threatened to beat them all up. April, yes Victoria admitted to her she had said things and was wrong. Kayla, yes their seemed to be trouble over a boy their. Mercades, no Victoria thought this girl was her friend. Brittini Hardcastle, no Victoria said she only said she didn’t like Brittini after Mercades told her Brittini didn’t like her. Cara, no Victoria and Cara said they didn’t even know each other. Brittany Mayes, no when Brittini H was grilling her about the rest of the girls Victoria said she didn’t have a problem with them. So it took 6 because of bad mouthing two. So, if people go by the back up what you say, which I know you don’t, Victoria should have only had problems with two of these girls. And, the coincidence is they are either smaller or the same size as Victoria. The rest of them are much bigger.

They were all in on it for the thrill. Not for revenge. They enjoyed ever minute of it. As for the look on her face at the end of the video, I will never forget that. A resigned weaker look only because she was way out numbered. Their is nothing she could have done or said to get these bullies to stop and she knew it. Sickening.
I believe she thought they were going to beat her to death and she just counldn’t take anymore.

The part of the tape that has Brittini Hardcastle telling her was is being rude has nothing to do with how she was treating the girls. It has everything to do with the angle of the camera and getting Victoria to look at her. She wanted to catch every bit of that on tape so she get relish in it later. When Victoria saw the camera she turned her back not to Brittini but away from the camera. But, no this bully wasn’t going to have that. Just another example of humiliating her by making her turn towards Brittini out of fear and be seen by the camera. I can’t even watch that video anymore. It makes my blood boil.

It all boils down to two little girls are mad at another girl. Big fat bullies are bored and want to get a thrill. I can not wait until they go to trail and get the punishment they deserve. What they put this poor girl through is inexcusable. None of them should have had charges dropped and their is no reason for any of them to get a plea deal. Its all on tape. They were all their. They all deserve to be punished. Unfortunately, one of them did get the charges dropped. Maybe Karma will get her.

Reply
September 6, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I agree with your observations, except I don’t understand the point, which many have made, that Victoria would have fought back if it was one on one. The reason I have trouble with that is that at first it looks like one on one. The attack by AC took her completely by surprise,even though (maybe hindsight) it looks like April was poised to attack from the start. Victoria’s defensive posture looks entirely spontaneous, and not the result of thinking through the consequences of facing an attack from multiple sources. And why would she at this stage? If she had no trouble with the others, why would she see them as a threat? It was just her and one attacker at first, and she showed no inclination to fight. Never before has one videotape shown us so much about a person’s character. Was she showing strength or weakness? Definitely great strength. All the others showed pathetic weakness.

Reply
September 6, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – sorry i did not make myself clear. I did not mean in this situation. I meant if her and say Kayla were by themselves. Certainly not in this environment. Anyone that says this was a one on one fight needs glasses or a brain.

You are right in hindsight, you can see that April is postured to fight. Victoria has no idea what is coming and is not. They definitely had the element of surprise on their side. Victoria had no idea. Who would every think people could be that cruel. she was blind sided

I have always disagree with people who say she should have fought back. From what I see she didn’t stand a chance. Her actions were offense not defense. Trying to block the punches she didn’t expect. I agree with every word you said.

Once again I think these girls are horrific. They need to go to trial and the punishment needs to fit the crime. Public flogging comes to mind.

Reply
September 6, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I agree that corporal punishment is appropriate in cases of violent crime. In our system criminals have more and more rights and only victims have to suffer cruel and unusual punishment. The time it is taking only adds to the injustice. I think the defense strategy is to drag it outuntil December 2012 and hope the Mayan prophecy comes true. Who knows what the judge is thinking? Why did they schedule a deposition for Victoria in October? Judge Spoto seems to comply with all the defense demands. Maybe he is trying to be as accommodating as possible to preclude any chance of an appeal when the sentence is finally (hopefully) pronounced. One might take some comfort in the probability that these delays are also taking a toll on the perpetrators. Their lives are on hold and the future is uncertain. That is all to the good, let them learn a lesson. But it demonstrates that defense attorneys have their own agendas and I am suspicious of the motives of the sheriff and SAO also. Meanwhile nothing much is happening and people keep repeating the same speculations about Victoria’s motivations. Some think she reasoned like this: “If I refrain from fighting back, I will gain public sympathy and increase my chance for a lucrative civil settlement.” Ridiculous. And those rumors about wild parties. Well, they couldn’t have been that wild or photographs would have been taken which Nancy and Greta would have aired. Anyway let’s hope those hurricanes move out to sea and don’t add to the damage. Hanna got to New York today, but it wasn’t a hurricane anymore, and just produced a lot of rain. People in places like Florida and Louisiana must have some special qualities that enable them to endure these natural disasters.

Reply
September 6, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I don’t know what the judge in this case is thinking. And I agree, one of the most ridiculous things I have heard is she didn’t fight back so they would get into more trouble. The girl was scared for her life. The lengths people will go to to make victims look bad are beyond outrageous. No jury will fall for that one.

We in Florida endure these natural disasters because, despite them it is our home. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. So far though, this year my part has been pretty lucky. But, they do just keep coming and coming don’t they. We have suffered in Florida but, New Orleans can’t survive another direct hit. This may sound strange but, when I see it going away from Florida and towards them I worry more. I pray for everyones safety as another one seems to be heading towards one of the two states. It seems never ending over this last month.

Reply
September 7, 2008

Mercades Nichols

this sucks.
everything sucks.
screw this.
f this.
I WIN BE VICTORIOUS!!!

Reply
September 7, 2008

Mercades Nichols

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!!

Reply
September 7, 2008

Greg

Mercades,

If you are serious about turning your life around, my advice to you is to stop physically bullying people and focus on the big picture. You and Victoria are both being bullied by society as a whole.

You are living in poverty, while many other people are living rich lives. Why don’t you focus on making some money? Why don’t you focus on bettering yourself?

You could have made a lot of money being a security guard protecting non-violent people like Victoria but you allowed your emotions to get the best of you. If you want protection from those who are stronger than you, learn to protect others. Victoria may have talked shit about you, but you shouldn’t have hit her first, words are meaningless unless backed up by action.

If you don’t listen to these warnings, a time will come where you are being bullied by people who have money/power, and more friends than you, there will be nobody willing to protect you, you’ll be on your own, in a situation very similar to that which you placed Victoria in.

You wont be able to find a high paying job. You wont be able to get into a good college. When you go to people for favors, nobody will be willing to do anything in your best interest.

And most importantly, you wont have friends whom you can trust.

You need to understand, that being physically violent is not the most efficient way to get people to do what you want.

I hope you actually keep reading these discussions, from these discussions you could learn a lot. And BTW, whether you go to jail or not, read as many books as you can, strengthen your mind, and maybe eventually you’ll realize that you are only hurting yourself when you have violent outbursts. The feelings you probably are feeling at this time were not brought upon you by Victoria, you created this reality for yourself.

I’m willing to bet that you actually are Mercades Nichols, I invite you to join our discussion, just don’t discuss your legal cases. Discuss what you want to do to better yourself.

Reply
September 7, 2008

gompertz

Mercades, if it really is you, I also invite you to join the discussion. Anyway, you should read over what Greg says, and think about it. Whatever happens, we hope you turn your life around. You can do it! Amy, yes I am torn by various feelings. We all want justice for Victoria, but I think(based on your discussions with Electronica) that you favor a punishment appropriate to the offense. That means something far short of the death penalty or life in prison, as some suggest. I believe these people must be given the opportunity to learn to experience remorse and ask for forgiveness. For victims of violence, it is important to have the opportunity to grant forgiveness to those who hurt them. Is it an empty hope that someday Victoria will be reconciled with her attackers? Let us wait and see. The problem with these delays is that ill feelings tend to fester. The uncertainties about when or if there will be a trial increase the insecurity and fear, both for victim and victimizers, and this uneasiness is not conducive to anyone having positive feelings. Meanwhile the court continues its machinations with no concern for the harm this causes. What is Judge Spoto up to? Where is that posse? I see the hurricane is churning along menacingly. Let us pray for the people that are in its path.

Reply
September 7, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I do not believe for one minute it is Mercades Nichols you are talking to. I believe the condition for her release is still the same. She is not allowed on the internet. So, I will try hard not to respond to anything this person has to say.

Gompertz – Even though I am human and the video brings out the worst in revenge feelings, I still try not to think violently. Of course the death penalty doesn’t apply in this case. Life in prison is outrageous. Here in lies my problem with the proper punishment. Their are elements to this case that go beyond buylling. I know we have discussed them over and over.

Betrayal of a friend can be one of the most hurtful feelings you will ever know. Putting your trust in someone and having them turn on you is hard to get over. It hardens you to trusting others. I don’t know how you punish for that.

The lack of sympathy and empathy for this girl also is something that is difficult to punish. How do you teach a person these qualities. How could you perform this act and not feel sorry for this? How can you sit their and not imagine, what is that were me? These girls showed not one ounce of that basic behavior. How do you punish that?

Even if they didn’t physically hit her, the psychological beating they gave her to me was probably worse. Screaming, not letting up, humiliating her, making her beg and taping it. To me this is probably one of the most shocking aspects. Once again, these girls showa total lack of any human emotion. How do you punish this?

These are the dilemas you face when trying to decide proper punishment. The physical abuse some pretty standard guidelines for the maximum amount of punishment. Pain and suffering of an emotional kind, is so much harder to put a punishment on.

I would imagine that Victoria’s physical scars from this will heal much quick than the emotional. she will need a lot of love, therapy and some “real” true friends to get through that.

I don’t think these girls have earned a second chance yet. You get that after you pay the price for your first actions. then see how they respond.

Reply
September 7, 2008

gompertz

Amy, With the “false Mercades” Myspace still fresh in mind, I did have my doubts and it most probably isn’t real. Still, I wouldn’t bet my life savings that it’s not. Anyway, I read somewhere that the mother of the real Mercades reads a lot of these blogs, and she might find them educational. As for Greg’s comments I took them not as addressed to an impostor, but to the real Mercades, wherever she is. what if someone had shown enough concern to speak to her like that years ago, when it might have made a difference? Yes, good upbringing matters. So does lack of it. As for the question of punishment, I do sometimes speak of forgiveness and reconciliation, sometimes of retributive justice. These are not separate. Remorse, forgiveness, these are the ultimate goals of decent people, but we cannot skip the punishment phase. That MUST come first. When the perpetrator has gone through a certain amount of unpleasantness commensurate with the offense, the offender may learn to understand the pain they inflicted on the victim. Or they may not. The offender may receive the chance to feel and express remorse, a chance which they may or may not take. Punishment is certain, being able to learn your lesson is uncertain. It depends on the offender’s capacity to change for the better. I do share your concern for trying to assess the nature of sadistic cruelty and the lack of empathy displayed. There are times when the pack mentality is displayed in cases of ethnic cleansing or religious wars, when supposedly civilized nations just seem to go crazy and committed atrocities collectively. Not just Europe or Rwanda, this country knew a time when “the only good Indian is a dead Indian.” How to assess the guilt of those who participate in these episodes of madness? Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity? I have no simple answer. What are we seeing in the video? A pack mentality, yes, but is there something even more sinister? We know of cases of children being horribly killed, by being burned or buried alive, by monsters who seem totally incapable of any human feeling. Do the people in the video have anything in common with these most demonic of criminals? It is because I can give no clear answer to these concerns, even with the video evidence, I cannot precisely assess degree of guilt. I cannot read their hearts. Evil, yes, but incorrigible evil, I just don’t know. Maybe a jury will sort it out, someday.

Reply
September 7, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – That is my burning question. Just how deeply imbedded is this saddistic behavior. From the video it sure does not look promising. But, people can change. Mercades mother is such a horrific example for her daughter. I have no doubt, now that her daughter brings her so much attention, she sees a lot more of her. How sad for a teenager not to know the true feelings of a mothers love.

Seeing Mercades mothers behavior does shed some light as to why this girl has turned out the way she has. Shame on her mother. Their is absolutely no excuse for her.

I don’t know about all of the other girls families but, the ones I have heard about are dysfuctional. I would be curious to know about Brittini Hardcastle’s family situation. She is the one who I hold out the least amount of hope for.

However, this being said, their are a lot of teens who grow up in horrible circumstances. Far worse then what these girls know. And they do not go on to commit such violent acts. So, I don’t blame it soley on their up bringing. I have said it so many times. Something basic in these girls characters is missing. I don’t know if that is an emotion that can be learned when it is absent. i.e. serial killers, rapist, etc. How psychologicaly embedded is this behavior for these girls. For Brittini Hardcastle I have no doubt, disturbingly deep.

Everyone worries if they go to jail they will be faced with violent criminals. However, seems to forget these girls are violent. Their actions went above and beyond being bullies. I think for their sakes as well as the victims, the punishment should be handed down. So they can take their punishment and either learn from it or show their lack of ability to do so.

If they go to court and bash the victim, which we have already heard out of some of their mouths, this will further show their inability to take responsibility for their crime. wow. sorry about the run on sentence. kind of tired.

Reply
September 8, 2008

Greg

Amyv, empathy and remorse cannot be learned or taught. I think it’s pointless to attempt to teach an emotion. However the ability to make reasonable decisions can and should be taught.

Mercades should be looking out for Mercades. That is the rational way to think. However the decisions Mercades has made were not in the best interest of Mercades, therefore those decisions were irrational. The reason Mercades made these irrational decisions is because she allowed her emotions to guide her decision making, essentially letting her subconscious mind judge right and wrong instead of her conscious mind.

Mercades does not need to feel anything at all toward Victoria to have made the correct decision. Assault is a crime, she knew assault was a crime, but she decided to do what felt good instead of handle it another way, this means she probably is capable of weighing the consequences of her actions but refused to do so.

Let Mercades be Person M.
Let Victoria be Person V.
Let the state be Person G.

To be fair, lets assume this all started because:

The Cause
Person V talked trash about Person M.

The Effect
Person M is insulted and hurt by Person V.

At this point Person M has a choice to make in how to respond to Person V.

The Question

How does Person M find the most rational response to Person V?

The solution for Person M is to apply a formula to all of their decision making.

Rational choice theory says that Person M has to weigh the means and ends, as well as the costs and benefits, when making a decision.

Person M should have taken a piece of paper and made a list of all of the responses they could think of. (Plan on paper!) Any response they could think of should go on that list. Then they should show that list to a friend whom they know generally makes good/strong decisions and ask for advice.(never make critical decisions without consulting others first)

Had Person M actually wrote down: “Planning to kidnap and assault Victoria…”, or something similar, then she could have worked it out on paper to see that if you follow that plan, X amount of laws would be broken, and if you film it and put it on MySpace that would be used as evidence that X amount of laws were broken.

As you see just by factoring in the laws and the evidence it’s already a high risk operation with a very low chance of success. But Person M also would have to factor in the emotional responses of the friends &amp family of Person V, and you don’t need to be capable of feeling these emotions yourself to factor them into your decision making process.

Person M could have predicted the responses that people on this blog would have after seeing the video just by looking at the Michael Vick case. How did people respond to Michael Vick? They tried to lynch him. Person M could have come to the conclusion that “If I beat on a defenseless person, I will be viewed to be as bad as people who fight dogs and who beat on defenseless animals, if anyone finds out I’ll be lynched by the media!”, but Person M did not factor in the emotional component.

All things considers,

Benefits for Person M
1. Emotional gratification.
2. Respect through fear.

Risks for Person M

1. Getting caught and going to prison.
2. The response of Person V’s family.
3. The Media lynching.
4. Disrespect generated by fear.

The risks outweigh the benefit both in number and in severity. An individual can quickly see that if they get caught doing something like this they are going to ruin their lives and look like a monster to the general public.

The purpose of applying rational choice theory to the decision making process is to avoid making emotional decisions which are rationally ignorant, or just completely irrational. I’m willing to bet that Mercades was never taught a formula for making rational decisions, therefore she made an irrational decision.

There is a time and a place for violence, but the decision to commit a high risk violent act should always be weighed and then planned out in the fullest. Violence should never be emotional or spontaneous. What this means is, when deciding whether or not to use physical violence against a person you should apply some formula to measure whether or not a threat. Violence is a form of risk management, it’s supposed to be applied to LOWER your risks, not applied in an irrational way which increases or creates risks for yourself.

If somebody seems to be a treat to you

A. Figure out the nature of the threat. If they are violent then factor that into your decision making. Sometimes violence is the only way to neutralize a violent individual. However if they have no history of violence and are a non-violent person, they are not a physical threat as it’s not in their nature. In dealing with non-violent people or people who cannot harm you physically, such as women, children, babies, and defenseless animals, you should exclude all violent responses towards these individuals.

B. Figure out the capabilities of the threat. If the person making threats is actually capable of physically harming you, then perhaps you might want to take them more seriously but if they clearly aren’t capable of anything more than words, you can find non-violent low risk ways to shut them up. Let the amount of force you use, be just enough to accomplish your goal and no more. To beat on someone for 30 minutes in a locked room is excessive use of force.

And finally, the whole point is to better yourself, it’s about risk management. It’s about threat analysis and managing threats. It’s about management of your enemies. You don’t have to apply violence to every single enemy, you only have to apply violence to an enemy whom you know has a violent nature. By reading the character of your enemies you can easily know their capabilities.

Mercades if she is rational, should know that her single biggest threat will come from violent people. If she is rational she will know to look out for #1, and in order to do that she’s going to have to learn to manage risks. Violent people are a physical risk to Mercades and therefore the biggest threat. Non-violent people are an emotional risk to Mercades, and are a threat of a completely different nature and should be dealt with using different means.

Reply
September 8, 2008

Amyv

Greg – If every one had the self control and intelligence to write out pros and cons, the world would be a much safer place. In theory this sounds like a good way to handle situations in life that occur.

However, most people who commit a violent or non-violent crime for that matter can not follow this train of thought. First, I believe their is a mentality they won’t get caught. Second, they do not consider the consequences of punishment. Third, their are some very hard core criminals who simply don’t care.

Then their are those who don’t need to make a list. Their brains can comprehend very quickly this is an action I will not take. Whether I get caught or not, this is simply something that is morally wrong.

Your ideas are very much like a math problem. Basic formulas for basic results. I believe their is no concrete formula for just behaving like a human being.

I think the majority of Mercades problem already is Mercades only looks out for Mercades. That is what most of these girls exhibit. This does apply when faced with a violent threat. Unless of course you factor in your children and loved ones. Then you have other people besides yourself that you must look out for.

I Know you were just using Mercades as an example in this scenario. However, Victoria never talked about Mercades. Mercades was supposed to be her friend. She turned on her for no apparent reason. Maybe just to look tough for Brittini H. who Victoria was also not talking about on my space. So you have two huge girls plan out revenge on a smaller one. Revenge for what? Kayla and April were the two she supposedly trashed on my space. So why are the other four involved? No threat to them. No honor to uphold because they were trashed talked. No reason for a list. Because, she made no threat towards either of them.

Brittini H. likes to fight that is obvious. So you let the largest and meanest take over and beat this girl senseless. Because Brittini can inflict pain for no apparent reason but the shear thrill of knowing she can. Although, I do not like violence in any form, I do believe the punishment for Brittini should be some of the same. Since she is unable to feel emotions pain may be the only answer. If she is beaten up by a couple of people much larger then her maybe she will learn. Otherwise, I don’t believe this girl will learn a thing from her behavior. April Copper even for her young age, shows these traits already.

As for Mercades its odd she never struck Victoria. However, on the tape you do she her sitting on the coach enjoying the show. Such strange and cruel behavior out of people so young.

I think the plan you have suggested is used by people everyday to make decisions. Not necessarily written down on paper but mentally processed in their minds. These girls showed no signs of being capble of doing that. They showed no remorse or worry even after being caught. They were mad because other people wanted to hurt them. So, where do you go from their with these girls.

Reply
September 8, 2008

Greg

Amyv, here is where we disagree.

I think the majority of Mercades problem already is Mercades only looks out for Mercades. That is what most of these girls exhibit.

I think this is where you are wrong. I think each rational individual can and should look out for their own self interest. The first rule of survival is to look out for yourself. The second rule is to seek peace. But the reason you seek peace is because peace allows you to minimize the risks to your security. So on this point I disagree with you, I don’t think it’s always in an individuals best interest to look out for another individual, it depends on the relationship between those two individuals. Ultimately an individual is only responsible for their own self interest, and not anyone elses. I think Mercades just did a bad job protecting her own interests in this situation. Mercades has hurt Mercades.

Your ideas are very much like a math problem. Basic formulas for basic results. I believe their is no concrete formula for just behaving like a human being.

I disagree with this as well. The formula for behaving like a rational human being is called utilitarianism. Another name for it is consequentialism, You decide on your behavior based on the consequences of that behavior.
Consequentialism

I don’t believe there is an absolute right and wrong that applies to all situations. I believe right and wrong depends on the situation, and that the results of an action speak for whether it was right or wrong. Mercades knows her action was wrong based on the results.

I also believe that the “ends” justify the “means”, if the “ends” are nobel or are self defense in nature. Mercades has a right to defend herself using any means necessary.

So naturally Mercades if she is a normal rational human being, is going to be focused on and concerned with protecting herself at all times.
It’s a dangerous world and we each have to look out for #1. The problem Mercades is making is they don’t see how indirectly they hurt their own interests because they aren’t factoring everything into their calculation, if they are indeed making a calculation.

For example, I’m looking out for #1 when I want to reduce violence. It’s not because I’m concerned about the “victims”, because I don’t know the victim personally. I’m concerned that if violence is not regulated by the state, that the risks of physical danger to myself will increase.

It’s in my best interest to reduce violent crime because I’m smart enough to know there will always be an individual with less to lose than me, and that individual will use violence on me to take what I have and love.The rational conclusion is that a violent society will cheapen all of our lives, and that includes my own life, your life, and the life of Mercades. Therefore the rational conclusion is that violence must be regulated to raise quality of life for us all.

When I claim the ends justify the means, if the end result is “safe” society, then the means/methods at which we achieve security don’t matter very much to me because security and self preservation should come first.

Therefore we need cops and laws to regulate the violence, otherwise we’ll all be killing each other. It’s the social contract. It’s the basis behind government itself, and the meaning behind the concept of a constitution, we created all of this as a way to regulate violence in society so that we can focus on being happy instead of spending our lives focusing on our enemies and what to do with them.

I think the plan you have suggested is used by people everyday to make decisions. Not necessarily written down on paper but mentally processed in their minds.

Just as some people can recite pi, and do large math calculations in their head, some people can make really complex decisions in their head. But this is a talent, it’s not something which can be taught, and most people don’t have the ability to make critical decisions in their head.

Look at the typical Jury, they collect all the facts and even write notes and discuss it and they still often cannot come with the correct decision. Critical thinking is a talent that some people have but most people don’t have this talent. I’m sure you believe that the majority of people make the correct decisions the majority of the time, but if that were the case then we’d have a just society, where racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination would not exist because people would actually do the goddamn math and see it doesn’t add up for them in the long term. If you look at the laws being passed, our current leaders don’t make rational decisions.

Do you think the current leadership in government actually sits down and weighs the pro and cons of the patriot act? Or the war in Iraq? Or some of the ridiculous laws we see being passed merely for the emotional satisfaction of people in power?

The truth is, Americans have lost their ability to make reasonable decisions, and this goes all the way up to the top. At best most Americans plan on short 3-6 month cycles, as you can see in the behavior of corporations, they aren’t thinking about sustainability or the next 5-10 years, they only think of the 3-6 months, and this is the kinda thinking that takes place even in governments.

When people pass laws they aren’t thinking about the long term consequences, and they don’t care what happens to their grand children or great grand children, they are thinking about
what they can get today. So it feels good to pass hate crime laws, so now we have the sorta law which allows for thought crimes. It feels good to ban video games, and people aren’t thinking that if video games can be banned so can books and anything else for that matter.

People will try to probably pass laws as a result of this Victoria trial, probably some law to govern websites, they aren’t thinking that their laws will do nothing but create more victims, and this is what I mean. We have situations where we create more victims just so we can feel good, or just so we can have something to blame (scapegoats), or just so we can protect our short term profits. Most people don’t think of the long term consequences of their actions.

Reply
September 8, 2008

M. Hutchence

I’m not so much concerned about rehabilitating ANY of them at this point. I am more concerned with making it impossible for them to repeat something like this or worse.

If they can learn to pull it together, then i think that is great. But first and foremost, get them out of the free world where they seem to like to push people around. And whatever type of facility they go to, they should not have any type of contact with each other.

Reply
September 8, 2008

Amyv

Hutchene – could not agree with you more. The law as it stands is pro criminal. They have so many rights it is ridiculous. The victims are the ones who have no rights.

Greg -Don’t get me started on our government. From the very top on down they are slowly destroying our country. For what? It all boils down to greed. They do not make decisions or pass laws passed on what is good for the people. Their incentive either has to be that passing the law helps their party lines or keeps their wallets fat.

Before going farther with that let me say I love my country. Freedom of speech does give me the right to speak my mind without being considered Anti-American.

People in this country will never agree on the war. But, with a president in office that has an approval rating of about 38%, that should speak volumes. I do not believe we are in this war because of the threat of nuclear weapons (I believe none were ever found}. I do not believe it was because of 9/11. If that was the case why have we failed to capture the master mind.
I say bring our troops home before their is any more senseless killing. Our boys are dying. Bring them home and for Gods sake when they get here, give them the benefits they are justly entitled to. Enough ranting about that.

This is a very violent world we live in. War, crime, killing for what?

These girls did not view this girl as a threat. That is B.S. They are violent, bullies who were just looking for someone to beat up. They got a thrill out of it. What was one of Mercades reasons for being mad at Victoria “She owed me $4.00” once again B.S.

They are violent. They do not have the ability to make a rational decision. They have proven that. And if you have to get out a pen and paper to figure out what is wrong with this action you are sorely lacking in basic human feelings. Yes, I said feelings. Empathy, sympathy, basically being a decent human being.

If every action people make is whats in it for me, then this world is beyond help. I do very much care what happened to this girl. No, I don’t know here. And no I don’t want them punished so it will make society a safer place for ‘me’. I want them punished for what they did to her. She deserves that. And they deserve what they have got coming.

I can tell you without even reasoning it out, never would i participate in anything so disgusting. Me. Me. Me. Is what the hell is wrong with these people in the first place. So more Me, Me, Me what is in it for me is the last thing they need. What is in it for them is jail time.

I know a lot a very good people. So, I don’t think my way of thinking is unique. Do Unto others as you would have them do to you. Plain and simple.

I will give you a true example. I was driving down the road one day and saw a fight taking place were two youngs boys were beating on another. Their were a bunch of teenagers standing around cheering it on. I was alone. I stopped my car got out and screamed at them to break it up. They stopped and all took off running. It wasn’t until I got back into my car and calmed down that I realized I had just put myself in danger. It never even entered my mind before that. My instinct was someone was getting hurt and I needed to help them. So what was my reward for that? No, I don’t think I am a saint. I just think it is the right thing to do when someone is in trouble.

As far as hate crimes go, isn’t any incident whether someone attacked a hate crime. The problem with this law is that it doesn’t work both ways. What if 6 black people ganged up on one white person? Is that not considered a hate crime? If not it should be.

Reply
September 9, 2008

gompertz

Amy, absolutely I agree. These people were thinking of themselves and serving the values of their little gang, regardless of any bigger picture. Lawmakers make laws to serve the interests of the elites they represent,not the greater good. Today’s elites consist of radicals who reject traditional morality and have only one real value, that is excitement, and that means sex and violence. I believe these elites consist largely of the bullies of previous generations who have grown too old to act out physically and continue their antisocial behavior as left-wing college professors and ACLU lawyers. Of course these people are partial to criminals, the more violent the better. They themselves are no better than the criminals they fight for, because they are violent themselves. To your last point, no, hate crimes laws are not applied equitably, it is obvious. That is the fault of these same leftist elites. Long after Marx’s prophecies fail to come true, leftists continue to long for a violent revolution. That seems to excite them. And who are today’s revolutionary agents to be? Here is the answer of H. Marcuse,a prominent modern marxist: racial minorities, criminals, and young people(meaning bullies). These lefties tend to be whites who rebel against what they see as the restrictive atmosphere of traditional society. They look to blacks as embodying their own yearning for a more natural, spontaneous, and sexually unrepressed lifestyle. Is it any wonder that some black musicians deliver what is expected of them in the form of hiphop, with its violence and sex? They are well rewarded by society. Black music as a whole, for instance blues music, is no more violent or disrespectful to women than folk music anywhere. Experience shows us, I know you agree, that there is good and bad in every culture and race. But when criminal violence by blacks is not punished (and thus implicitly rewarded) by white liberal judges such as Gibson Lee, that sends a clear message. Some may think this digression is out of place here. I think it is relevant for this reason. Those of us who have looked up as many references to this case as they could, might have stumbled upon certain sites that blame the behavior of the attackers on the influence of hiphop (meaning black) culture. April Cooper’s myspace(now removed) mentioned her interest in hiphop music(Burn the witch!). I agree that was probably an influence to violence, but let’s put the blame where it belongs. Neomarxist ideology has infiltrated all levels of society and gets in the way of the kind of scientific organization that Greg (and also myself) advocate to regulate society. How can Mercades, or any of them, think rationally in this environment? Imagine Mercades sitting down in the midst of her friends who are even now engaged in animated discussion of the attack they are planning. She might try to make a list of pros and cons, perhaps using a pen not unlike the one with which she stabbed her boyfriend. What principles is she to use to decide? She, like all her friends, goes to a school where morality is regarded as mere superstition and instant gratification is the only thing that matters. Now she is overwhelmed by the excitement and decides that the enjoyment of an act of sadistic cruelty far outweighs any other consideration. As for her not hitting Victoria, it seems to be a rule that the judases are not also the executioners. The pleasure of betrayal seems to be reward enough. Yes, we have a long way to go to bring about the kind of social organization that rewards good behavior and punishes bad. But at least identifying the problem is a step. Well, I could say a lot more,but enough for now.

Reply
September 9, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I do agree we live in a world of instant gratification. And, it is only getting worse. All of us do things we know are wrong at some point for this purpose. No one is perfect.
However, their are barriers that should not be crossed.

The system sounds good in theory. I just wonder what has happened to morals and feelings towards others?

What makes some people behave like these girls, and some behave like the heroes of 9/11. What makes people instinctively run to the rescue of others without a thought for their own safety?
While their are others like these girls that will torment without any emotion. Basic human feelings have to apply here. With out them, I honestly don’t know what the answer is to deter this type of behavior. If you don’t have the core values and morals to stop you from such an act, can that be taught?

I hate to put it so simply because it is a complex issue. I think it is as simple as their are good people and this world and their are bad. The good people do not require a reward for acting like a decent human being. As proven time and time again, their are everday heroes who prove this. Unfortunately, their are also losers like these girls who can not comprehend, nor do they care to, their effects on other people. I strongly feel if you are capable of such an action a reward for not doing so doesn’t matter. I believe you either have it in you or you don’t.

I really believe we try to make sense of what makes people like this tick. I don’t know if their will ever be an answer to that. And, it sure will not be cut and dry. That is what jails are for. If you can’t control these urges, you must pay the price.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Greg

And if you have to get out a pen and paper to figure out what is wrong with this action you are sorely lacking in basic human feelings. Yes, I said feelings. Empathy, sympathy, basically being a decent human being.

Why do you assume that people who don’t feel “empathy, sympathy etc” cannot be decent human beings? Try not to take an elitist perspective. Some people are not going to have the ability to make intuitive or instinctive decisions, because we don’t all have good instincts. Just as some don’t have an instinct for doing math. The goal of yours should be to train an individual who does not have any instincts at all, “no sympath, no empathy” into being a decent human being. Figure out how to train people into being decent rather than just taking an elitist way of thinking.

as your family. Victoria is not related to you and is not of

your concern so it’s not rational for you to care about her on a

personal level beyond the tactical level. By helping Victoria

stay safe you help your own kids stay safe. When you make a

rational decision, ALL emotions must be shut off, not just the

“bad” emotions like hate, but also love and compassion must be

shut off so that you can make the decision which is in your best

interest.

This is why I advocate making decisions on paper. While Mercades

had problems making a decision without her emotions influencing

her decision, you also seem to have problems making a decision

without your emotions influencing your decision. This is why it

should be made on paper so you can see that it is correct by

fact and not just a decision which feels right. Think carefully

about what you said and if you still think it’s correct then

fine, but you should be able to explain that it’s correct to

everyone, not just to people emotionally inclined to feel as you

feel.

I can tell you without even reasoning it out, never would i

participate in anything so disgusting. Me. Me. Me. Is what the

hell is wrong with these people in the first place.

Reason is all we have to seperate us from animals. We are all

too emotionally different to communicate and solve problems when

we make decisions on how we feel. To the bully it felt good to

beat someone up, does that make their decision correct? It might

feel bad to save a persons life but does that make the decision

incorrect? You have to make decisions not baed on how you feel

but based on whats in your best interest AND in the best

interest of the people you are responsible for protecting.

Victoria is not your daughter. You are not personally

responsible for protecting her. You can choose to adopt her and

treat her as a daughter and take on those responsibilities, but

shouldn’t you meet her first? From the perspective we have on

this forum, none of us personally know Victoria and I can even

go as far to say that Mercades probably knows Victoria better

than we do. Your personal connection to Victoria is entirely

emotional, not reasonable, because if it were reasonable you’re

stake in this would be to change things so that your own

children/offspring wont have to experience what Victoria had to

experience.

I know a lot a very good people. So, I don&rsquot think my way of thinking is unique. Do Unto others as you would have them do to you. Plain and simple.

Your way of thinking is common among good people but it’s not the way for the majority. Also it’s not necessary to think this way to be good, there are good people who don’t think as you do.
I’m taking Victoria’s side and I don’t think as you do, I’m a selfish person. I’m going to do whats in the best interest of myself and the people I care about. I’ve never met Victoria so I will not claim that I’m personally connected to Victria, posting this for tactical and strategic reasons.

It wasn&rsquot until I got back into my car and calmed down that I realized I had just put myself in danger. It never even entered my mind before that. My instinct was someone was getting hurt and I needed to help them. How are you different from the bullies? The bullies are just following their own instincts. Your actions were no more reasonable than the actions of the bully because you admit that you were just following instincts and that you didn’t think it through. In this case your actions turned out to be the correct action, but it could have easily lead to you being beat down. What you did is risked your life on a gamble that happened to pay off. This is not something you can teach people to do, you just have an instinct for it.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Greg

The entire argument I’m trying to make is that we have to teach our children not to follow their guts.

Gut reactions are what lead to bullying. Gut reactions are often wrong. To follow your gut is to leave your life up to chance and to live life by the feelings of your instincts. I’m advocating that we treat decision making like math, as problem solving, without any emotional connection to the objects that we weigh in making these decisions.

Victoria would be an object in a math formula. Even as an object, it’s not rational to damage Victoria over $4. It’s not worth the risk and the only reason I think people would want to do it is if they feel it in their gut, and it feels good to do it.

I’m going on record to say I don’t feel anything towards anyone involved in this beating, but I recognize that the situation is wrong because it’s unreasonable to torture a fellow human being.

I’m against torture because I don’t want to be tortured, nor do I want my loved ones to be tortured. And beating up a person for 30 minutes like that will cause emotional damage which ranks up there with being waterboarded for 30 minutes. I’m also against bullying. And all of my reasons can be mapped out on paper and it’s proven wrong based on the fact that bullying Victoria like that has had a negative effect on everyone involved.

It’s a fact that it is wrong because all who were involved in it now have a permanent stain on their life that wont wash off.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Greg

While their are others like these girls that will torment without any emotion. Basic human feelings have to apply here. With out them, I honestly don&rsquot know what the answer is to deter this type of behavior. If you don&rsquot have the core values and morals to stop you from such an act, can that be taught?

If you want to be an effective teacher you have to recognize that whatever method of teaching you use, the same method wont work on everyone. You cannot apply emotions as your only method of teaching right and wrong. The worst thing you can tell a child is to follow their gut.

You have to learn to teach right and wrong from an emotionally neutral position. The outcome decides whether an action was right or wrong, not the intent. A person might save a life to win the reward. A bounty hunter might hunt down a criminal to receive the reward, all that matters is that their behavior is good, not the methods used to teach them to adopt that behavior.

You can say some people have better instincts than others, that fair, but you cannot rank people merely based on their instincts. People are the sum of their actions.

The good people do not require a reward for acting like a decent human being.

A lot of police officers, troops and others joined not out of the kindness of their heart but so they themselves could support their families and survive. They are in it for the money, but they still save lives and still count. Perhaps your doctor does not care about you or the lives he’s saving, but he became a doctor because it’s a high paying job.

You have to understand that emotions aren’t a good way to make critical decisions. If you don’t understand this then you wont understand why people have genocide even when it clearly is irrational. They are following their gut too. The nazi’s believed they were the good people when they did that.

You aren’t going to have any influence if you focus on emotions. We are too emotionally different for you to ever get anything done besides in your small clique/group of people who have emotions similar to your own. The only way to teach people with emotions different from yours is to adopt neutral positions.

In a way you are being emotionally partisan.
And this is just going to polarize things further.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I believe their are several psychological disorders that involve the inabillity to feel sympathy and empathy. It is a sickness. And, as studies have shown (i.e. phedophiles, rapist, serial killers) are unable to be rehabilitated. Therefore, you are right in that aspect. These are not emotions that can be taught. And, it would also suggest that no reward system would stop people with these disorders from continuing their behaviors.

Yes, I want my familly, especially my daughter, to grow up in a world where their is peace. I don’t want to have to worry every time she goes out that someone might hurt her because they have a mental disorder. But, although this feeling applies more strongly towards my daughter, I also want that for all people.

No one should have to walk out their front door and wonder if they are going to arrive back home safely that day. Just because some people in our society are sick and lacking good instincts. That is what seperates normal people from animals and that is just what these girls acted like.

No I do not know Victoria. But, I can tell you right now when I see that tape I have great sympathy for her. She is a young girl who should never have had to endure such cruelty. And, I would adopt her if that is what she needed. Not for any gain except to keep her safe. She is a concern to me as a human being. Not just because I have a teenage daughter. And, if someone can watch that tape and have no emotion towards “anyone involved” I assume that would also mean the victim. This in itself would show how selfish that person really is.

I have not meet or blogge with to many people who were not totally disgusted and repulsed by the actions of these girls. And, prays and wishes for the victim are by the thousands. So, I do not just go with a small circle of people on this one.

You believe teaching children to react by gut feelings along is wrong. I agree if they do not have the essential tools to make the right gut decisions. I do not know if you have children. But, I would also say teaching children to be selfish and react only when it is in their best interest is very wrong. Is that not what is wrong with our society today. The government acts out of selfish greed. Big companies act out of selfish greed. Children who are handed everything act out of selfish greed. So, if we applly your principal of looking out for number one, look around. That is already happening big time. Our country is in a financial crisis because of selfishness that has affected millions. Our crime rate is up among juvenille offenders because of selfishness. So I believe alot of your principals are already in place and look how well they are working. These big companies do get out a pen and paper to make decisions. For their benefit alone.

As for soldiers going off to war just to make sure their own families are safe, the broader picture is to make sure their country is safe. Are they selfish absolutely not. The conditions they endure we can not even imagine and the monetary reward we call know is about as much as working at Wal-Mart. So people who think they do it for self serving purposes I believe owe them an apology and should instead be indebted to them for keeping ours butts safe. The police officers as well are notoriously underpaid. They are here to keep you and your family safe. So once again a debt of graditude is owed them.

You belive my way of thinking will make the problem worse. I believe your way of thinking already is the problem.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Greg

I believe their are several psychological disorders that involve the inabillity to feel sympathy and empathy. It is a sickness. And, as studies have shown (i.e. phedophiles, rapist, serial killers) are unable to be rehabilitated. Therefore, you are right in that aspect. These are not emotions that can be taught. And, it would also suggest that no reward system would stop people with these disorders from continuing their behaviors.

According to science, you can over come one instinct by rewarding another. I’m not saying this will work on pedophiles because the sexual urges are probably among the most powerful instincts. Not everyone who is greedy is a bully.

Greed is an instinct. By feeding one instinct you can reduce the infuence of another instinct by giving the individual a choice between a low risk highly rewarding instinct such as greed, and the high risk low reward instinct such as bullying.

Bullying has been stopped before. I’m not willing to put bullies on the level of pedophiles, rapists and serial killers. I think a bully is more of an opportunist, more like someone who steals and lies when they feel it could benefit them. Very few people are actually sadist enough to bully for the sheer thrill of the act, for people like that there is not much we can do.

I don’t think Mercades is an example of a thrill bully. I think Mercades gets provoked into doing something irrational and takes it to the extreme, but I don’t think Mercades is the sort of individual who will go and beat up homeless folks just because they can. Victoria was beat up for a stupid reason, but I wont go so far as to say she it was for no reason at all. And this means Mercades is at least capable of some level of reasoning.

Yes, I want my familly, especially my daughter, to grow up in a world where their is peace. I don&rsquot want to have to worry every time she goes out that someone might hurt her because they have a mental disorder. But, although this feeling applies more strongly towards my daughter, I also want that for all people.

We arrive at the same conclusion through two completely different ways of thinking, this is good because it means there is a good chance that this conclusion is correct. It’s like the scientific method, you cannot just have one way of thinking about a problem, the more ways of thinking about it the more accurate our conclusions will become. This means everyone from all different thinking styles should be involved.

No one should have to walk out their front door and wonder if they are going to arrive back home safely that day. Just because some people in our society are sick and lacking good instincts. That is what seperates normal people from animals and that is just what these girls acted like.

It’s the ability to reason that allowed humans to invent language in the first place. If every symbol had an emotion behind it we wouldn’t be able to communicate because we’d get too mad at each other over stupid stuff, like the choice of words you used, or how bad your spelling is, or just by the way your words look someone could be pissed off. Reason allows for abstract concepts to be described which can apply to anyone.

Victoria is just an object in a math formula. You can replace Victoria with anyone and review the problem. You can replace Victoria with your daughter. You can replace Victoria with Mercades. You can replace Victoria with Jesus Christ. You can replace Victoria with any name and the situation remains the same.

This means the situation is a constant. The Object or Subject is Victoria and is a variable.
All the characters are variables. All people are constantly changing so it does not make sense to get attached to the characters in a situation or story unless it’s your story and your characters.

You simply replace Victoria with your daughter and you instantly realize that what was done to Victoria was wrong. You don’t have to feel any sympathy or compassion for Victoria, but would you let someone do that to your daughter? So to protect the security of your own daughter you have to take action, but it has nothing to do with Victoria, more to do with love for your own daughter and fear that it could happen to your daughter, it’s selfish but this is how most people will think about this. I don’t think Mercades would let that happen to her own daughter, or even her pet if she had one. And if she does beat on her pets or kids like that, it’s abuse right? So of course if she can’t do it, nobody should be doing that to her kids.

And, if someone can watch that tape and have no emotion towards &ldquoanyone involved&rdquo I assume that would also mean the victim. This in itself would show how selfish that person really is.

I admit to being selfish. And most people are even more selfish than I am. But I’m honest, and I have integrity because I follow the laws of nature which say the strong should protect the weak.

However the laws of nature also say look out for #1. So while we should prevent bullying, we should not do so at a cost to ourselves. Self preservation must always come first in any decision. The problem with people who are excessively violent is they aren’t adopting a behavior which increases their own chances of survival. Most violent people decrease their security when they bring insecurity to others.

You believe teaching children to react by gut feelings along is wrong. I agree if they do not have the essential tools to make the right gut decisions. I do not know if you have children. But, I would also say teaching children to be selfish and react only when it is in their best interest is very wrong.

It’s not wrong. There is a hierarchy of needs. Then there are things you just want but you don’t really need. To secure what you need, get it yourself, you cannot expect anyone to give you anything you need in life. Nobody is going to just give you:

1. An Education.
2. Good Health.
3. Security.

These sorts of things are the things you have to take for yourself or you’ll just never have them. As a result most Americans don’t have these things because they expect other people to give it to them for free. You want something? You take it, and if someone tries to stop you then you run them over or go around them, but you don’t expect stuff to just be given to you because you need it. This is why you have to teach your kids to be selfish, because if you don’t your kids will always be poor and always be givers, and the government, corporations, the church, the bullies and the con artists, and even the mosquitos and bugs, will take from them until they have nothing left to give. Being selfish simply means you love yourself and are willing to do what is necessary to secure your own quality of life even if it costs someone else theirs.

. The government acts out of selfish greed. Big companies act out of selfish greed. Children who are handed everything act out of selfish greed. So, if we applly your principal of looking out for number one, look around. That is already happening big time. Our country is in a financial crisis because of selfishness that has affected millions.

These things aren’t going to change in our lifetime. As long as we are capitalists, selfishness is the way to survive. If you don’t like it, go promote communism where people can all be equal. But under capitalism resource distribution is never going to be equal, so if you want something you take it before the next family does, because theres not enough for us all to have a good life. Being selfish is the only way out of poverty, there is no way to get rich while helping people and being unselfish. If you join the church or work for charity you’ll never get rich and so you’ll always live in the dangerous neighborhoods and your children and their children for generations will suffer because you followed this path. You cannot blame someone who takes the money and moves on to a better place for themselves and those who come after them. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

.You belive my way of thinking will make the problem worse. I believe your way of thinking already is the problem.

your way of thinking is proven to lead to generations of poverty and eventually a type of debt slavery under capitalism. If you don’t take you just don’t have anything in this country because society doesn’t give anything for free.

Victoria, Mercades, all of them are living in situations where their futures are not secure. It can be argued that maybe their parents weren’t selfish enough. Why shouldn’t you go to the best possible schools, have the best possible medicine, get the fastest possible internet connection, make as much money possible from the time you invest in your job? Unless you think you are inherently worth less than Paris Hilton, then why shouldn’t you be able to live like that if you want to?

The whole American dream is based on selfishness. Everyone is looking out for #1 because it doesn’t pay to dedicate yourself to looking out for complete strangers. And if you dedicate yourself to strangers then your children and their offspring pay the price. So you have to deeply consider whether or not it’s in the best interest of your offspring to take this approach t life.

Reply
September 10, 2008

Greg

My philosophy is get what you can out of life while it lasts. If you want to help people, help those who you think are loyal to you as a form of reward for loyalty, but dont just help random people for free, always put a price on your time otherwise people will just keep lowering your salary and increasing your working hours, and stretching out the retirement age, and expanding your debt, the vampires will drain all the life and goodness out of you unless you selfishly guard it.

Reply
September 10, 2008

gompertz

M. Hutchence, I respect your volunteer work with troubled young people. It must give you valuable insight into social problems. My own experience is limited to people I know socially. Among my friends there have been vice presidents of banks and also petty thieves. I am very tolerant that way. You use the word rehabilitation. I would rather see remorse. I have seen the system release violent criminals who show no remorse for their acts. Still they are deemed “productive members of society” though they still gloat over the crimes they committed. If this is rehabilitation we don’t need it. Whether any of the Lakeland miscreants are capable of turning it around, none of us knows. We probably will never find out. They may get away with no punishment at all or they may receive very long sentences, and neither outcome is desirable. Locking people away and throwing away the key, even very young people, seems to be common in some states. Also the possibility of receiving therapy and counseling seems to vary from state to state. Why these disparities? From what I have seen in New York,social workers are often unqualified even when their intentions are good. People here who go to jail do get counseling but I have not seen any of them being improved by it. Unless an individual counsellor is really dedicated he can’t help people to change. People come out of jail no better or worse. No worse simply because the old crime families who controlled these things did not let people escalate their activities. I present a pessimistic picture because that’s all I see. Maybe you find more reason to hope, from your different vantage point. Well, I think I’ll go practice some Tai Chi and read some Chinese philosophy now. If only these things could be incorporated into the treatment of people in the criminal justice system.

Reply
September 10, 2008

gompertz

Greg, not to quibble, but seeking clarification. You seem to suggest that the nazis were guided by emotion, and that if they had been guided by reason they would have refrained from their destructive course. But how would reason have shown them that? Once you leave out old arguments about will of God, etc. what are you left with except looking at the results of your actions. Of course they launched their war of aggression expecting to win,something that may very well have happened, unless you believe in historical determinism, and I don’t think anyone here does. The Lakeland girls thought they could make a viral video and beat and humiliate their victim without any consequences, as so many others have done. Yes, many horribly savage beatings can still be seen on the internet, and most don’t seem to have been prosecuted. They may feel they were just unlucky to get caught, as Cara Murphy suggested, maybe next time they’ll be more careful. So where is their error in reasoning? Were Americans right to wipe out the Indians because they succeeded? Aren’t some further principles needed to guide rational action? Let me go back to the point about reason vs emotion in the holocaust, which I should have made above(Yes, I’m tired). I simply suggest that historians are divided on the causes and motives, but there seems to be a recognition that many top nazis (though not Hitler, who was completely looney) were guided by some kind of reason. It is said that many of the top nazis did not hate Jews, but felt they were obeying a higher imperative. At least it is certain that many Germans thought there were good reasons for proceeding to eliminate the Jews. They just didn’t foresee the consequences to themselves. I was born over there a few years after the end of the war and saw the aftermath. I don’t believe Germans are better or worse than other people, and I don’t think all the people who followed Hitler were just hopelessly immoral. I don’t think the Lakeland girls are necessarily evil either, we just don’t know. In both cases the results of their actions proved them wrong If we must judge without emotion, we cannot be horrified by images of holocaust victims on one hand, and the violent videotape beating on the other. If the images are not relevant, what beside results can we judge by? Because often people do get away with murder, how can we tell people not to murder? All we can tell them is to be smart and not get caught. Or is there more? One other thing, I wonder if you really answered Amy’s point about companies that carry out carefully planned actions that make profits for themselves while creating what economists call externalities. You say that’s just how capitalism works, but if those companies create pollution that poisoned a river and causes people to die, is there no further principle we can appeal to beside the self-interest of the stronger?

Reply
September 10, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I know all to well how capitalism works in our country. I know all to well about the greed of our government, social security agencies, health care, and on……

Suppose you did go to college you earned your degree while working and maintained a straight A average. Oh, and also while raising a child. your spouse has had a difficult upbrining. Losing the sole provider of his family at 13. His mother is disabled and it is difficult financially for her to raise her four young children. At the age of 14 he finds a job. Through hard work he obtains a decent job with decent benefits, lets say for the city or state.

You sit down and map out a plan. The wife makes 3/4 of the income coming into your household. The husband is much lower paid but, the benefits for healthcare and retirements for him are better for retirement purposes. Everything seems great you did what you were supposed to do to provide for you and your family.

The husband becomes ill at a young age. Of course, this is unexpected. Husband loses job, healthcare, and the promise of the good pension you were looking forward upon retirement. Four years the husband is in and out of the hospital. The wife is able to put him on her health plan. However, even with insurance, the medical bills mount. Social Security turns you down time, after time, after time. Even though you have doctors saying you are incable of working. The reason for denial of social security. You are to young.

The wife takes on another job and works 12 to 13 hours a day. Luckily she makes good money and is able to keep the bills. But, it does dip into your savings.

By the grace of God the husband begins to recover. He goes back to work. For one year they enjoy this sense of security for themselves and for their daughter. They do not live a lavish live style. They bought within their means when shopping for a house and a car. You start do dig out of the burden that the medical bills have caused.

Then, the wife becomes ill. She becomes unable to work. Cutting their income down to 1/4 of what they were earning. The wife is home bound for over a year. The medical bills are mounting once again. You have depleted your savings. You try to keep your head above water. But, pen to paper the bills out weigh the income. Your house will soon be going into foreclosure. Your car will soon be repossesed. The security you had for your family, especially your daughter, is fading fast. Their is no help from our government. Disability is once again failing you. Even though, you had paid into it since you were very young. Oh, and because of the state of the economy, the husbands job has not been ‘able’ to give raises for the past three years.

Where did you go wrong in this scenario. YOu planned. You never could have imagined all of this happening in such a short time.

Gases prices go up, groceries go up and house prices plummet. But, hey we live in a capitalistic society so who should care. It is not you or your family that this is happening to. It effects you not in the least.

It is continuously harder for people to provide the basics for the families because of greed. Food prices are outrageous, health care is outrageous, prescription medications (without health car) are through the roof. Social security has made major cutbacks because thee money we have put in has been spent by the government on other things.

So, yes I do know about the prospects of its not affecting everyone so who cares. Thei are thousands of people like this all over the united states. But, as long as the people in government, oil companies, etc. after making money hand over fist, who cares. BECAUSE THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU. Or so you think.

I won’t be blogging much anymore. Will check in from time to time. Excuse my spelling, as I get weaker it is harder to concentrate.

I don’t write this out of a need for sympathy. I am still a strong willed individual. Just making a point that we are in a society that doesn’t really care. God help our children and the future generations.

Reply
September 10, 2008

gompertz

Amy, it seems you were not speaking hypothetically. Families lose their homes and live in tents, and sick people are not provided for. I just don’t think a socialist state would do any better because these will be plenty of selfish people under any system and also there will be compassionate people. If you have the interest of your family at heart you will have the strength to endure difficult times. There are few people who are guided by compassion and many more are motivated by other considerations. I know words are not important but anyway, I believe you are one of those few. That is why I think you will be all right.

Reply
September 11, 2008

Greg

Greg, not to quibble, but seeking clarification. You seem to suggest that the nazis were guided by emotion, and that if they had been guided by reason they would have refrained from their destructive course. But how would reason have shown them that?

The nazi’s decided that their hatred for the Jews was more important than victory. They decided to declare war on themselves, this reduced their military might as they kill off some of their best people who happened to be born Jews. As a result of this, they weakened themselves.

Do your realize that Einstein was a German Jew? The Nazi’s would have had the bomb and would have been the world superpower if they would not have went with the emotional option of genocide. But the Nazi’s chose genocide because it felt good emotionally, but also because their religion told them it was right. They believed what they were doing was morally right because their religion and their emotions told them it was, even when militarily they were losing. Hitler thought he was right up until his final moments before he committed suicide.

So where is their error in reasoning? Were Americans right to wipe out the Indians because they succeeded?

The error of their reasoning is they didn’t weigh the consequences of putting the evidence on Youtube, furthermore they did not weigh the costs of beating Victoria until after they fact. Thats why they were worried that she’d tell her parents, after they fact they were concerned about being caught but not during the act.

And yes America was right to slaughter the native Americans, and I say this even though some of those native Americans were my ancestors. If things did not happen exactly as they did, none of us would exist, so I’m glad everything happened as it did, however if we had to face a situation like that again I would favor diplomacy over ignorantly slaughtering the unknown. Ultimately whatever America did to create itself and secure it’s existence was right, just as only one sperm gets to the egg, only one tribe could gain control over this land.

simply suggest that historians are divided on the causes and motives, but there seems to be a recognition that many top nazis (though not Hitler, who was completely looney) were guided by some kind of reason. It is said that many of the top nazis did not hate Jews, but felt they were obeying a higher imperative. At least it is certain that many Germans thought there were good reasons for proceeding to eliminate the Jews. They just didn&rsquot foresee the consequences to themselves.

Once again, the Jews were German, they just were stripped of their citizenship. And this did not just happen to Jews, anyone who disagreed with Hitler was treated as a Jew, the concept of the Jewish enemy was used by Hitler in the same way the Catholic church created the concept of the witch, or the pagan as a way to hunt people down who were enemies of their religion. Nazism is and was a religion, and it’s not based on reason but on a mixture of pseudo-science and collectivism. Many Germans joined the collective, and that collectivism often leads to dangerous group think.

Because often people do get away with murder, how can we tell people not to murder?

If you murder someone you decrease the worth of your own life. Someone related to the individual you murdered might offer a bounty for your head to the person who murders you. The point is, nobody ever gets away with murder in natural law. The only reason people are allowed to get away with murder now is because the law is designed to protect murderers even more than victims.

For example, if someone commits a murder you are encouraged to call the police. However if the police refuse to arrest the person because that person is above the police and beyond being arrested, then you could end up getting murdered by the police. Corruption is why people get away with murder, in specific corruption within the police departments and within the inner circle of law enforcement, corrupt judges, corrupt lawyers, you get the picture? But this does not mean someone can get away with murder if they are an ordinary person.

If you are an ordinary person and you murder 5 children from 5 different families. 4 out of those 5 might also be ordinary and might not be capable of stopping you, but 1 person out of those 5 people will be the sort of person to murder you back, an eye for an eye. Being a murderer can get you murdered, that’s why it’s wrong to murder.

You say that&rsquos just how capitalism works, but if those companies create pollution that poisoned a river and causes people to die, is there no further principle we can appeal to beside the self-interest of the stronger?

Some people don’t care about their children, maybe they are old people who have no children to care about. Then you have people who have families who love their children and who don’t want to see their children grow up in a polluted crime infested city. Appeal to the parents, speak to people father to father, mother to mother.

Where did you go wrong in this scenario. YOu planned. You never could have imagined all of this happening in such a short time.

It’s complicated. As a citizen you didn’t do anything wrong, the government wants people to live this way, which is why the government promotes the environment to force people to live this way. Some innovative people find ways out of it, but they do work they aren’t proud of and can’t or wont want to talk about. It’s difficult but the goal under capitalism for each member of a capitalist society is to earn as much money as they can while they are alive, because under capitalism the society and government decides our worth by our salaries.

Reply
September 11, 2008

Greg

Amyv, the problem is that under capitalism the worth of each life is decided by their worth in dollars. There is no other way to measure the worth of a human life under capitalism.

So we have to ask ourselves why our bosses think we are only worth the ridiculously small salary that they choose to give to us, while they give themselves millions of dollars to essentially be “boss” and tell us what to do and how to live. The only solution I have is to try to make your life worth as much as possible, be a boss if you can, or if you can’t be a boss then figure out how to blackmail your boss so they can’t fire you.

Reply
September 11, 2008

Greg

And just for the record, I’m not currently a boss, I’m a wannabe.

Reply
September 11, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I said I wouldn’t blog for a while but, I did check in tonight. I never want to personaly attack anyone on a blog. We all have a difference of opinion and that is what makes people individuals.

However, your comment on what was done to the American Indians is in comprehensible to me. You said you were a selfish person but, how can you feel that slaughtering people is o.k. What are we back in the cave man days.

We came to their country. They were here for centuries. Their way of life was simple. We came over and greedily took, not just what they willing shared, but everything. Just imagine if we never came here. The indians continued to live their way of life with a respect for mother nature. I can only imagine what this land would look like now.

But, your right survival of the fittest is well known in the animal kingdom. We came and conquered. Killed off who knows how many species of animals. Chopped through a beautiful
country and made it a concrete jungle. Polluted the air. All for what greed. But, like you said, who cares. It doesn’t have any effect on you.

No wonder our children have no values, morals, or ability to distinguish between right and wrong. They have such good role models now a days. Me. Me. Me. Lets just keep teaching this to the younger generation. And, let the world keep going in this direction. But, who cares we will be long gone.

This kind of selfishness and greed, I will never agree to. And, once again I state that is what is wrong with people today. And it just keeps getting passed on to the next generation. This will be my last blog on here. Greg -shame on you for your comment about the American Indians. You have no idea how to fix this problem with teenage violence because, you have the same mentality.

Reply
September 12, 2008

Greg

To clarify my position: Utilitarianism the results / outcomes justify the actions under utilitarianism, but this does not mean I favor terrible actions to reach positive results / outcomes if those results / outcomes can be reached in a better way.

At the end of the day I’m just looking for results.
I don’t really put much emphasis on how we reach the results. The same philosophy applies to solving teenage violence, we should do whatever produces the best results.

Since most people are selfish, we should appeal to that. The reason capitalism beat communism globally is because most people were too selfish to accept communism. So rather than be trapped defending communism in a forever losing battle against capitalism, why not just use capitalism to produce the reality and results you wish to see?

Only the results matter

In the end I’d teach a teenager to focus on achieving positive results from all of their actions. These results should be both positive on them, and on people they care about. If they choose to sacrifice for the sake of others they can, but thats not an option that most people are going to take.

Reply
September 12, 2008

Greg

utilitarian ethics

Reply
September 12, 2008

gompertz

Greg, the problem with discussing the holocaust is that the literature is vast and learned opinions vary. Yes, of course I am well aware of the deeply emotional elements of the nazi movement. The religious aspects appealed to the instincts of common people and were cynically exploited by people who were not themselves swept up by religious enthusiasm. This is how rulers have always used the religious feelings of the masses to consolidate their power. At any rate the nazi war machine grew powerful because scientists, engineers and military professionals built it up through reason. This war machine, though very successful at first, ultimately failed because of Hitler’s irrational insistence on making the holocaust the primary goal. That is why he made the disastrous decision to invade Russia, and why the military objectives were eclipsed by the irrational lust for extermination. Can’t we acknowledge that the world is lucky that in this case, emotion superseded reason?

I believe what we see in nazism as well as in the Florida case is not just reason vs emotion, but also reason against itself. That is, reason serving lesser goals like the advantage of the group or the corporation without regard to a broader view. I don’t mean in some idealist sense but only looking at the more long-term effects of your own actions. The Florida miscreants should have looked more deeply and seen how their actions would have led to unpleasant consequences for themselves. Corporate executives do not have to think that way. If their search for profits leads to misery for people it causes them no discomfort. That happens far away, or it happens to future generations so why care? The girls in Florida may be vile and depraved but they are also victims. The companies make profits selling them computers and shiny electronic gadgets that they are tempted to use in irresponsible ways. There is nothing in their upbringing or education that could help them make the kind of rational decisions that would benefit themselves and society. Yet it is reasonable from the point of view of the profit-makers that this should be so. Keep them doped with religion and sex and TV, said John Lennon. Today add computers and digital video and cellphones. Technological progress doesn’t help them make good decisions, on the contrary, it seems to increase the likelihood of worse decisions. I think Dostoevski’s underground man was right on target: the more we build up the “Crystal Palace” of technology, the more human beings lose the ability to act human. One day, he says, some people rebel against the constraints of the Crystal Palace and start smashing things. Hence the Lakeland beating is not an anomaly but a natural response to the dehumanizing influence of technology.
In the Florida situation as in nazi Germany people did not have the training or knowledge to make better decisions. It took a lot of bombing to reverse the effects of Hitler. What will it take to make things better in Lakeland? Well. that’s really been discussed in these blogs enough, we know the answer. I do think we must be careful about classifying people too readily as incorrigibly amoral. There are a few people who are truly heroic, like those dedicated martial artists (Guardians, Sages, etc.) who have passed beyond normal human vices. There are also really evil people to whom we should show no mercy, such as those who torture and murder children. We do need to reinterpret the “cruel and unusual” thing in the light of people like John Couey. I don’t think the Founding Fathers had that in mind. However, most people seem to show a capacity, albeit limited, for making good decisions if only they had proper guidance. How can we be sure that Mercades, for instance, couldn’t be made to see the light if given a chance? The courts in Florida don’t seem to give many chances. And the vampires are out in force to prey upon the “sheep without a shepherd” as she and her friends seem to be. (Well, maybe they are sheep with fangs)Anyway I read that a Santa Fe judge, Frances Gallegos, has ordered Tai Chi lessons for violent criminals. Excellent. Now what if the Lakeland girls received Tai Chi lessons as part of their sentence/treatment, and that they responded positively. Now imagine that upon their release, they are approached by a Hollywood producer offering tham a movie deal, or a reality TV show. Can their new Tai Chi consciousness compete with that? I am just saying that the identity of the enemy is clear and the fight is difficult.
Now I also will not be blogging much, checking in sometimes, because after a long period of enjoying retirement I am going back to work and looking forward to it. I also look forward to something new developing, like, for instance a trial.

Reply
September 12, 2008

Greg

Can&rsquot we acknowledge that the world is lucky that in this case, emotion superseded reason?

That depends, but as an American I’d prefer that our country remain the most reasonable and not the Germans or the Russians. In that case I agree that it was a good thing that Hitler was irrational because if he were rational, Germany would be the world super power right now.

The Florida miscreants should have looked more deeply and seen how their actions would have led to unpleasant consequences for themselves.

That is precisely what I advocate. There are different levels of reasoning, the highest levels of reasoning require a species level awareness. So while I might be a utilitarian who believes the results are most important, I recognize that the survival of the human species is the prime objective, followed by the survival of myself and my loved ones. Because I realize that the survival of the species is the prime objective, war in my opinion should only be launched to guarantee the survival of our species.

What the USA and other countries are doing is thinking on the national level, which is below the level of the species, but above the level of the individual. We are still on the nationalist level of morality, and we will probably remain on that level or at least the next few hundred years because we don’t have a world currency, a world language, and a world culture, and while the USA is trying to create a world culture, many countries in the world do not like the idea of the US being the world government. The world is still tribal and still nationalist, so while I’d like to be able to say that all lives are valued equally, if we look closely we see that every country values the lives of their own people above the lives of peoples in other countries, and within every country they have some kind of ranking system where they decide how valuable the lives are within their society. The USA uses capitalism to rank the value of life within it’s own borders, and beyond. I don’t know what the Soviets used, but as things are today, the entire globe has adopted the American value system through capitalism. Because not all currencies are of equal worth, a life in Africa for example is not are valuable as a life in America.

Corporate executives do not have to think that way. If their search for profits leads to misery for people it causes them no discomfort. That happens far away, or it happens to future generations so why care?

What corporate execs don’t realize is that through their corporation, they are the creators of the future. They are creating their own future, and they are creating their childrens future, they essentially are creating the future or the entire world by deciding how the money flows.

Technological progress doesn&rsquot help them make good decisions, on the contrary, it seems to increase the likelihood of worse decisions. I think Dostoevski&rsquos underground man was right on target: the more we build up the &ldquoCrystal Palace&rdquo of technology, the more human beings lose the ability to act human.

I’m not exactly sure why they wont use the technology to improve decision making. Sometimes I think people are choosing to be dumb for emotional reasons even when the solutions can be found using the technology.

Nothing stops us from creating simulation software to be used by lawmakers so they can actually see the long term effects of the laws they pass. Our military has no problem using simulation software. NASA uses simulation software before launching a rocket into space, yet somehow we naively think that our lawmakers are smart enough to pass laws that make sense. I think lawmakers and business owners should at least apply software simulation results in their business planning and long term sustainability planning. And I don’t see why we can’t create some software for teenagers or others to teach decision making using simulations and games. Very much like how Sim City used to be, remember that?

Now what if the Lakeland girls received Tai Chi lessons as part of their sentence/treatment, and that they responded positively.

I think if we are somehow more wise, we have a responsibility to teach those who do not understand the laws of nature. Just about everyone can learn, although some are more hardheaded than others.

Reply
September 12, 2008

M. Hutchence

anyone have any news as far as a trial being set?

Reply
September 17, 2008

amyv

Don’t know when the trial is set for. I heard something about October. Should be over and done with by now.

Reply
September 18, 2008

Electronica

amyv and mr. hutch they say on topix that lawyers will ask tori questions next month and so the trial stuff will have to wait for that.

and on topix they also have some new stuff i didnt see before like what britti told her mom when she called from jail.

Reply
September 18, 2008

Electronica

oh and they said the girls will be sex offenders cause they kidnaped tori and tori wasnt 18 yet.uhmmm idk its real wierd but they say its the law. gn.

Reply
September 19, 2008

M. Hutchence

how many of them were over 18 again? I forgot about that one.

Reply
September 19, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – good to hear from you again. I tryed to look up the comments on Topix. I am having a hard time registering for that site. I am not sure about the sex offender law being applied in this case. That does seems strange. Maybe someone with more legal knowledge can answer that one.

M.Hutchene – Only one boy was 18 at the time of the crime. But, I am sure you know this charges have been dropped. None of the five remaining girls being charged are 18. I believe the oldest ones are Brittini Hardcastle and Mercades Nicholes. I know B.H. is 17 know. Which raises another question for me. If they keep dragging out the trial this girl could possibly turn 18 before it goes before a jury. Granted the crime happened when she was a minor. However, I would think in some small way, her lawyer would want her to go before a jury before she turns 18. Since their is much debate about these girls being tried as adults. Why wait until one of them actually is considered one? Just a question I have pandered?

Reply
September 19, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Thank you for your words of encouragement. On a personal note, having a total stranger say they think you are strong enough to pull through meant a lot to me.

The night I typed that I needed to vent. I got totally off subject and it was just the therapy I needed. And you are wrong. Sometimes words mean everything.

Off subject again, I got doctors latest report today. Wonderful news. I am even able to start looking for a job.

Greg – The last couple of days the nation has seen how a capitalistic society can get itself into huge financial problems. The policy of everyone for himself and the rich get richer has had crippling affects on our economy. And, many believe this is just the begin and much hard times are to come. Possibly a depression.

Do not misunderstand me. I would rather live in this country than anywhere else in the world. I will salute our flag everyday. I am a true American. However, I system is not working. Time to revamp the countries and individuals greed that have brought us to this current crisis.
I know you will disagree with me but, I believe this is the result of not caring about anything but “what’s in it for me”. With some terrible consequences to our way of living.

I am not a wanna be boss. When I get back to work, I have been the boss for the last 9 years. I made sure that my employees got the highest percentage of raises according to their job descriptions. I fought with bosses over me about these issues. It was not always to my benefit but, in the end they got the raises they deserved. And, in return I had a very loyal and hardworking staff. We were also great friends away from work.

I did have a lot of leverage with my company, because I earned them a great deal of money. I used this leverage to my employees benefits. I did not greedily use it just to benefit myself.

The best compliment I ever recieved as a boss was not the awards I won from my company or the company bonuses. It was the praise from the employees that worked for me. At the end of the day if your crew isn’t happy you will not be effective as a boss. So the bosses who want to give the lowest raises they can and treat their employees like they are less of a person than them are missing the boat. Sorry, I know run on sentences again. It’s late and I’m tired.

Reply
September 20, 2008

Electronica

mr. hutch they say april will be tried as an adult and she kidnaped a child cause toris not 18 and so aprils going to be a sex offender. doesnt matter aprils 14! i think its funny but i guess its not too funny. and idk if its right and it doesnt make much sense to me.

Reply
September 20, 2008

Amyv

Electronica- We have all know for sometime that the girls will all be charged as adults for the kidnapping. This is a very serious criminal charge. And it does apply in this case. Even if April was only 14. Her problem is she was, next to Brittini Hardcastle, the most heavily involved in the beating. That is hard to defend. And to be that cruel at the age of 14 is even more disturbing.

However, sex offender does not seem to apply to this case what so ever. That doesn’t make much sense to me. If it is the law I disagree strongly.

Reply
September 20, 2008

gompertz

Amy, good to hear things are going better for you. Working is so beneficial, financially, spiritually, in every way. I am starting some new projects, just time to check in here occasionally. Yes, the sexual offender charge seems out of place here. Of course people are right to take sexual assault seriously. It is such a monstrous thing, and so often ruins the lives of innocent children, that even the slightest hint of it makes people lose patience and pass the strongest possible penalties against it. Sometimes people feel it is better to err on the side of being overzealous than being too lenient. So the law sometimes gets misapplied, as seems to be the case here. Not just in Florida. In some places one can get sexual offender status for public urination, a result that seems to extend the application of the law beyond reasonable limits. Still, I would say the intent of the law is admirable. I would guess that in this case the sexual harassment charge will be dropped, it would strike most jurors as just weird. Anyway, April and her friends have enough to worry about without it.

Reply
September 21, 2008

Greg

Amyv it’s not that you’ll ever be able to change the nature of greedy selfish individuals. The best you can do is change their behavior. And thats all I’m advocating.

Reply
September 21, 2008

Greg

And the only known way to change behavior is carrot &amp stick.

Reply
September 22, 2008

Amyv

Greg – I am more for attracting more flies with honey. lol. I know greed will never change. Their will always be greedy people in this world. I don’t disagree that everyone isn’t wanting the best out of live for themselves and for their children. Like you have said that is what America is supposed to stand for. I just think the new generation is something we are ill equipped to handle.

In this particular case I believe the carrot on the stick was the beating and taping themselves. This was far more important to these teenagers than any reward system had to offer. This was their reward. This was their feeling of being superior and looking tough for their peers.

The teenagers I talk to, don’t speak of money or material things. They speak of the respect of their peers and the inability to back down from violent behavior due to saving face. Looking tough and not getting bullied, because they appear weak.

One of the teenage girls I talk to actually sai, “I would rather take a beating or even be jumped than be seen as a whimp”. This is what a lot of this new culture consist of. So I don’t know what you will dangle on the end of the stick to get them to change their attitudes.

Our generations greed is for money and materialistic things. Theirs is for respect and being tough. So, Their are a whole lot of new issues to address with the up and coming generation.

Reply
September 28, 2008

gompertz

Hi! Just checking in. Is the next pretrial hearing still on for October 7? The trial must be starting pretty soon, because, according to the Ledger, “Spoto said he tries to ensure ‘cases don’t get bogged down’ and issues get resolved in an appropriate time frame.”LOL

Reply
September 28, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – The last I hard the pretrial hearing is set for October 7. But, who knows. As for Spoto saying cases don’t get bogged down, I think they got of blew it on this one. Coming up on 7 months and still waiting on a pretrial hearing? I guess he considers that an approriate time frame. I mean its not like they have the whole thing caught on video. lol

Reply
October 5, 2008

gompertz

So, the pretrial hearing gets postponed again. There seems to be a lot of time-consuming legal maneuvering going on. I wonder where the money is coming from to pay those defense attorneys. They must be expensive.

Reply
October 6, 2008

Amyv

No, excuse for continuing to postpone these pretrails. I don’t know how many of these girls have public defenders. However, I am sure we the taxpayers are footing the bills. Ridiculous alread.

Reply
October 6, 2008

gompertz

I think only BH has a public defender. I read on another blog that at least one of the lawyers is working pro bono, but like most of what’s reported, there’s no way to know for sure. Anyway these delays only make sense if the defense is hoping SAO gets tired of the waiting game and drops the case. Could that work?

Reply
October 6, 2008

Amyv

I am not a lawyer but, I can not imagine their is any possibillity this case will be dropped. They certainly have enough evidence. They are just dragging their feet. They would have to have some grounds for dropping the case i.e. insufficient evidcene, etc. And the charges are very serious.

Reply
October 12, 2008

gompertz

Amy-I find it interesting that Judge Spoto is “inclined to grant” Ms. Hardcastle’s request to ease curfew yet again so she can attend church at night. I wonder if this lethargic judge finds this surge of religious fervor at all suspicious. What church is it that now inspires BH to attend service at night? Could be the Church of Satan, for all we know.lol As for what SAO is up to, do we really know what their agenda is? Why allow depositions in October, knowing it would lead to another postponement?

Reply
October 12, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – The judge has granted these girls every thing they have requested. I to find it highly suspicious that Brittini Hardcastle needs two nights off a week to go to church. Wasn’t she already before the judge with a request for restrictions to lift for church on Sundays? Everyone of these girls has used that one. This is an attempt to make them look more favorable at trial. I highly doubt any of these girls were stepping into a church before this incident. And, if they were they must have been sleeping through it.

I have no idea why it took this long for depositions. I have no idea what the agenda is for dragging this out. But, it probably will be the first of the year before the trial gets started.

Greg – without trying to sound like a smart a** look what greed has gotten our country into. It has just about brought us down to our knees. So teaching children what’s in it for me will only lead to America’s down fall. God help us all. Save us from such a greedy society if it is not indeed to late.

Reply
October 13, 2008

Greg S

Amyv, it’s not greed that brought out country to this, it’s corruption. Animals are greedy, but they aren’t greedy in a destructive way because they only take what they need to survive in their environment.

The people on wallstreet are greedy for all the wrong reasons. It’s not that greed as an instinct is bad, as an instinct greed is the source of all self preserving behavior, greed and love are related because you’ll be greedy to protect your offspring, your loved ones. When resources are scarce people are supposed to be greedy, and in your situation Amyv, you could afford to be more greedy.

When an individual is greedy and corrupt, as in without integrity or honor, they should not be rewarded. If you look at the fundamental problem on wallstreet it’s not that they were greedy, it’s that we keep rewarding failure, corruption and bad behavior by bailing them out.

I was not in favor of the bailout because it’s the bailout behavior which corrupts the system. Just as suspected, if you look closely, certain individuals received bonuses (rewards) for their destructive behavior. I’m for greed because greed is how we can get most people to do whats right, but only if we reward the right behavior. This is basic operant conditioning, it’s basic psychology, it’s basic animal training, and it works just as good on dogs as on humans.

However if a dog were to bite your child, you don’t reward the dog with a treat (bailout), you punish the dog with something so traumatic that it acts as a memory enhancer in the mind of the dog. The dog will then associate that “bad” behavior with the traumatic experience.

Now look at the US economy, instead of rewarding good people like you Amyv, we reward the most corrupt greedy people. It’s not greed as an instinct that is bad, it’s never so simple that you can blame entire instincts for any problem. It’s our lack of ability to properly manage our instincts using our tools, techniques and technologies which is the source of our problem.

When it’s an individual in your shoes with an ordinary job, if their behavior puts the company out of business they get fired, and on top of that they might never work in that industry again. However if you are a CEO on wallstreet, you bankrupt the entire United States of America and you get rewarded with 400-500 million dollars, and bonuses. To me this looks like someone bribed these people into treason, and due to their vulnerabilities (their irrational greed), they were allowed into these positions of power precisely because someone like this is weak enough and vulnerable enough to be easily controlled by foreign powers.

In the case of these girls, they committed the crime and they have to pay the consequences. The law should not have mercy on them, the judge and others who are allowing their emotions to influence how they operate are being exploited in the same way that those CEO’s on wallstreet are exploited. What you have to know is, if you are addicted to greed it’s actually a weakness, and anyone who feeds your habit can get you to do anything.

On the other hand if you are addicted to other emotional states, people will try and manipulate your emotional states to get you to do what they want, we call this manipulation emotional terrorism. It gets expressed when people make threats such as “if you don’t do this for me I’ll kill myself”, or when people guilt trip the judge and jury with a sad story about how they are the real victims of life.

I do not advocate for ADDICTION and IRRATIONAL greed. I advocate for RATIONAL greed, meaning greed with is consciously directed by people who aren’t greedy. I’m saying that people like you Amyv, who aren’t chemically imbalanced in a way to make you addicted to greed, should be the sort of person to direct the people who ARE chemically imbalanced and addicted to greed.

It’s not enough to call these people bad people, they have a chemical imbalance in their brain and cannot control their addictive behavior. What you have to do is find out how to guide them and their behavior down a path which is constructive rather than destructive.

Reply
October 13, 2008

Greg S

Amyv, all I’m trying to do is teach enlightened humanity to take back control over her own instincts. This is what it’s going to take for humanity to survive as a species.

To simply condemn the instincts of others which you yourself do not have, is not going to help solve the problem. You can demonize irrational addiction to greed, you can demonize addiction to drugs, you can demonized addiction to sex. And you can demomize addiction to love, hate or anything else.

These addictions are the result of chemical imbalances in the brain which cause the subject to exhibit irrational behavior. So I still think individuals should think “Whats in it for me?”, but they should also be aware that the purpose of asking that question isn’t because it feels good to take from others, or it feels good to get the reward, but because resources actually are scarce and they do have loved ones to support.

If an individual has 100 million dollars and they are still asking “whats in it for me?” then that person has a chemical imbalance in their brain. I’m not promoting addiction to money. I’m saying you need to ask that question so you can survive our environment which by design rewards individuals who ask themselves that question.

And I don’t think irrational addiction to greed is the only problem. If an individual is irrationally addicted to anything, they are weak and can be exploited by individuals who will discover what their irrational addiction is, it could be to chocolate, and so anytime these individuals want to shape the behavior of the subject they’ll offer the subject chocolate, and because the subject is irrationally addicted to chocolate they will be genetically and physically incapable of declining unlimited chocolate in exchange for a slave like status.

Amyv, I respect your opinions, but our methods differ as to how to solve these types of problems. I see the problem as a scientific problem having to do with chemicals in the brain creating addictions which override the reasoning ability of the brain. What I’m trying to discourage is the “if it feels good do it” or “if it feels right then trust your gut” culture. I think that is what leads to self destruction.

Reply
October 14, 2008

Amyv

Greg – First of all let me thank you for your compliments to me. You can tell from my post, I am driven more by emotions. And, having an emotional day today your words lifted me up. Thank you. These are the kind of simple actions that I am more grateful for than any other.

You might find this a shock, lol, but I agree with what you are saying. I would like the world to be a place where all people have certain types of inbreed behavior, and that is certainly not going to happen.

I whole heartedly agree with your opinion on bailing out wall street. I do not see this as helping the people who need it the most. And, to give these CEO’s bonuses should be totally off the table. It is a shame the average American citizen can not seem to do anything about this. I want to see more action in helping people save their homes, feed their families, etc. The ability to lend more money for peolpe to buy houses is not helping the ones who would benefit from assistance (that should be paid back) when they are in financial difficulties. This type of rewarded greed we both believe is not right.

I would like to see if our two philosophies can combine and make for a better solution. I am just not sure how with these problems being so wide spread this could be implemented.

Something needs to be done with the youth of our country now. They are spiraling out of control. I am not even sure what drives their actions. Gangs they kill each other and know the possibility is great that they will die young. But, even that is not enough of an incentive to make them stop. Teenagers jumping each other with no regard for the other human beings involved. And, these girls who showed such a lack of compassion it is beyond my comprehension.

That is why I do believe these girls should be punished harshly. Their have got to be consequences in order for this type of behavior to stop. If teenagers continue to be reward and looked up to for this type of behavior, it will only get worse. The need to start seeing that their will be consequences for their actions and this is where we as adults have to step up to the plate.

Have a good day Greg.

Reply
October 14, 2008

Greg S

Amyv, I come from a neighborhood which had gangs and people in it just like Mercades. The reason that gangs form is due to a lack of leadership, a lack of community, a lack of family.

An individual joins a gang because they want family, community, brotherhood/sisterhood, all that good stuff and as a society these kids don’t believe they can find it anywhere else. The media hypnotizes these kids into thinking their lives are worthless due to the conditions they are born into. If you are born poor, society and many of the people in it will convince you that your life just isn’t worth much to society, and some of these individuals internalize what they see in the media and never develop a self esteem beyond what they find through their gang.

The gang mentality is older than society, but the violent nature found in todays gang mentality is completely the result of a society which doesn’t give many of these young individuals a chance. The options if you grow up under bad conditions are extremely limited and almost all of them require some violence, whether you want to be a cop, go to Iraq to fight, or be a gang member, all of these options lead down a violent path. And there just aren’t many good options left unless an individual is exceptionally smart, they know they aren’t going to get out of their situation without doing something extreme.

What I’m saying is, people don’t commit crimes simply because they are evil. Teenagers for the most part just haven’t had their brains develop to a point where they think like adults. And adults who commit the crimes usually do it because they are financially desperate, and we should expect crime to spike as people begin losing their homes.

Some humans are going to be more compassionate than others, but if you want to know how my ideas combine with yours, the utilitarian’s are usually only concerned with getting us from point A to point B, and use any methods which have the best chance of getting us from point A to point B. It’s going to take a total reform and redesign of our system of behavior management, that redesign is not going to be something you’ll want to be involved with because it’s going to involves tactics which you may not deem to be ethical. But if you want to save the future, then the present has to change, and thats utilitarian thinking, if you look at the people who are destroying your future and destroying the future of people like Mercades and even me, it’s the people who

A. Reward the bad behavior at the highest levels, such as the people who reward failure on Wallstreet.

B. The media who feeds bullshit brainwashing to the masses, and this media includes the whole MTV culture and the people who use the music and commercials to hypnotize people much in the way that the cig ads were used to create new drug addicts.

There is more to this but I’ll give it some more thought before I post.

Reply
October 14, 2008

Greg S

So I’ve had some time to think about what you said, and now I’m going to outline my design/prescription/cure.

My design is based on several premises which a reader must agree to accept as true in order to make
sense of the cure.

1.All humans have basic instincts. These basic instincts are primal animal instincts which are older than mankind. These basic instincts are what make up the primary emotions and these primary emotions are a lot like the primary colors from which all colors are formed. The primary emotions are the emotions from which all behavior is formed. So a good way to think of this is to see emotions as different colored/types of clay, and depending on the amount of certain kinds of clay, will influence everything from personality, and in some cases behavior. If you map the primal instincts on a spectrum you can sometimes map the range of that individuals behaviors associated with these primal instincts.

2.Abstract reasoning is not a primal instinct, but something learned. This is to say that children are not going to be born with the ability to understand advanced concepts, and adults typically go through an entire lifetime without ever understanding certain concepts. This means reason must be taught, it’s not an instinct people can feel, it means right and wrong must be taught.

3.The majority of humans follow their gut. What this means is that their subconscious mind is making decisions for them, and they are on autopilot (in trance). What this means is, people will tend to do what feels good without any conscious thought as to why they are doing it. People will eat chocolate and junk food because it tastes good, without consciously considering the effects it may have on their physical health. People will drink alcohol and do drugs for the high, without consciously considering the effects it may have on their physical health or how it may affect their relationships. People will make money for the high, without any conscious reasoning behind why they like to do it, even when they lose money on a gamble they will continue doing it for the high. And finally people will bully for the high associated with it, they will not consciously reason out what they are doing because it feels so good to control others.

4.The subconscious mind can be controlled by the conscious mind. In most cases an individual can learn to control their own subconscious mind through meditation, but if the individual does not learn to control their own subconscious mind, other individuals can and will take control over their subconscious mind for evil purposes. The Hitler’s of the world, the mass media, communicate directly to the subconscious mind and they use this to keep and maintain power over others. As a result a lot of people buy stuff from &ldquoname&rdquo brands without really knowing why they prefer these brands, their subconscious tells them it’s just not &ldquocool&rdquo to buy any other brand, even if that other brand is healthier for them and costs less. A lot of individuals let the media, commercials, and &ldquoexperts&rdquo tell them right from wrong. You see a lot of dating advice in magazines which deliberately give the worst possible advice, deliberately leading people off a cliff. You have a lot of experts who deliberately give advice which will hurt or sabotoge peoples lives. You have experts with degrees telling people to always follow their gut, and then you have the media which manipulates their gut.

These 4 main premises are important if you would like to understand why I favor utilitarianism.

Ultimately somebody is going to always be trying to control or manipulate the minds of the masses.
So it’s not an option to stop doing it, it’s only an option to make people aware of that fact that it’s being done, and if they are ready and willing, teach them meditation techniques and critical thinking so they can be strong enough mentally to not simply follow their gut (which is being manipulated). The tools to influence human behavior exist already, the problem is that these tools are being used merely to make money, and this means the same greedy people who are following their gut, are using the media to play with the subconscious of people who watch movies, or who just see random advertisements, and these advertisements are not designed to improve quality of life or any agenda, these advertisements are designed to create &ldquoconsumers&rdquo, who are treated as just entities that just consume and who don’t have feelings. Another word for &ldquoconsumer&rdquo would be zombie. The vast majority of Americans are zombies.

Utilitarianism does not have a strict list of right and wrong. Right and wrong are based on the consequences. Warriors and leaders, people who have a vision for the future, use utilitarian ethics as a way to decide right from wrong when there are no cost free options. What I mean is, every option or choice you make will have a cost associated with it. This cost can be calculated based on the amount of people who will be hurt, or in specific based on the amount of people whom you care about who will be hurt. This is the social cost of an option. Utilitarianism allows an individual to choose between &ldquobad&rdquo options when there are no &ldquogood&rdquo/cost free options left. If no matter what move you make, some people are going to be hurt, then you have to look at which people will be hurt and how much they will be hurt, so that you can avoid hurting the people who don’t deserve it or who are innocent. So it’s a way to minimize the pains to yourself and others while maximizing the gains to yourself and the people who you care about and who care about you.

The main way we have discovered to influence human behavior is the carrot and stick approach. It works so well that our entire society is built up on this. Our government uses this in diplomacy. Corporations use this when they give bonuses, promotions, demotions, and salaries. It’s the basis behind capitalism and economics, it’s the engine of society. Change always requires an engine, if you want to change the present you have to create the engine of change first, and then set it into motion.

My proposal is a design for a new engine. The fuel of that engine are the carrots/incentives.
When you want to get a person to do something you offer an incentive big enough until somebody is willing to accept it. An example of this is the bounty system, you offer a bounty for the arrest of a certain outlaw and bounty hunters will track and hunt down the outlaw to collect the bounty, not because they care about the law. The reason this works is because of how the human brain works, when a human is deciding on what to do based entirely on their gut, if they have the greed instinct dominating their personality, whomever appeals to their greed will control their behavior by indirect control of their gut. It’s only when an individual consciously analyzes their own behavior will they be able to free themselves from this control, but most humans are in a trance and don’t give critical thought to why they do what they do.

Now Amyv, you are a compassionate person and you wonder how the your thinking can co-exist with utilitarian thinking. Utilitarianism is like software for the mind, it’s more accurate, its like GPS, it allows for pinpoint accuracy in decision making, but because of this most people aren’t going to feel right about it in their gut/heart because some of the decisions wont feel right or look right. Utilitarianism has to be regulated/tempered by compassion and understanding. A utilitarian without compassion will have limited capability of understanding the pain of others beyond collatoral damage,
compassion is important, but in order to actually create a compassionate society, it means some people who stand in the way of this will have to be hurt. And yes there are individuals who stand in the way of a more compassionate society. Which means there are some people who will oppose everything you stand for and who will want to make kids more violent, more aggressive, more hopeless, and keep them dumb. Just as the tabacco companies did to previous generations, marketing products to teenagers they knew would cause cancer and death. To get an idea of what the media is doing to women in particular, there is a video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-19933685…

Billions of dollars every year is being spent on marketing products which hurt children, teens, and adults. Some of these products are not physical products but intellectual objects, intellectual property, and memes(mind viruses), which infect and cause harm to the subconscious. An infected subconscious will result in changes in behavior patterns and when you ask them why they did what they did, they wont know or wont be able to explain it because their subconscious was infected. It’s similar to asking a racist person why they are racist, the truth is they just feel it in their gut, they are racist because they feel it not because there is a rational explanation. I think one thing you could do is figure out how to promote compassion. Greedy individuals do a great job promoting greed at the cost of every other instinct, but how do we promote compassion when compassion isn’t even cool anymore? So it has to be promoted, for example if you really are a boss and you have to choose who to promote in your office, maybe you should promote the compassionate worker. Thats a utilitarian approach.

Reply
October 17, 2008

gompertz

Greg-don’t know where Amyv went, hope she’s all right. Anyway, I’ll just say a few words. Now, utilitarianism and compassion, I don’t see them as contradictory. Jeremy Bentham was a compassionate soul, with his advocacy of animal rights, he said it’s not whether they can reason, but whether they can suffer. And for a Buddhist they are not in conflict, but I won’t go into Buddhism, except to note that a lot of attention is now being paid to the difference between eastern and western psychology and how to make Buddhism compatible with western cultural values like individualism. Mark Epstein, Harvey Aronson, Rob Preece, for instance, if anyone’s interested. Or one could bypass the reading and take the martial arts/taoist approach, less cerebral, but still developing compassion. Martial arts is moving meditation, and all true meditation leads to compassion. The martial artists I have known are compassionate, even when they are knocking you down. I looked up that link, Killing Us Softly, and yes, the deleterious effect of advertising is everywhere. When they talked about the way women are made to feel ashamed of their bodies if they don’t look like barbie dolls, I have a peculiar thought. A lot of commentators on this case tried to hurt the accused by saying they were fat, or their skin blemished, such comments came up again and again. What if these girls looked more anorexic, conforming to the advertisers’ ideal, would their deed be more acceptable to some people? Just a thought. Now, the video’s case against advertising is usually made from a leftist perspective and is interpreted as a critique of capitalism. Marcuse argues this eloquently in One-Dimensional Man. It is the old argument that if you get rid of capitalism and the profit motive, such evils would disappear. The vision of a revolutionary struggle against oppression is persuasive to many young people, and the defender of capitalism has usually given only feeble replies like:”Well, capitalism isn’t perfect, in fact it’s pretty awful but it’s still the best system we’ve got.” And that simply doesn’t fire up the imagination. And so people have gone to the barricades and put their lives on the line and the lives of others for Marxism, but how many have been willing to die for Milton Friedman’s ideas? Or for game theory or operant conditioning? What you say about the attractions of gang membership apply to belonging to a leftist organization, with the added enticement of feeling morally superior to those who don’t agree with you. Actually it’s not morality but ideology, which is a cheap substitute for morality. What is wrong with Marx is not his economics, I think, but his belief that our minds are just a simple reflection of material conditions, like a mirror image. As social conditions become more collective, our minds must reflect those conditions, and morality must be a collective morality. Thus the defender of capitalism must inspire enthusiasm for individualistic values while exposing the shortcomings of collectivism. Let me stop there and reflect: I said enthusiasm , firing the imagination. I am thinking of what Amy said about the young people she knows, who value respect and toughness more than money. If you want to influence these people, you must offer them the kind of rewards they will respond to. I don’t think their values are irrational. They may be called “tribal” values. Like the early inhabitants of Florida, who happily traded their gold for the knives and axes of the Europeans, they know what is useful to them. If these young people live on a more spontaneous level, more physical and often violent, are they therefore beyond the range of rewards and punishments? I don’t know. Can their values be made compatible with the project of operant conditioning, or do they have to be totally re-educated? So far the left has been able to inspire them with its call for struggle against “the system”. The challenge is to combat that appeal by demonstrating that the freedom and moral righteousness which the left seems to offer is spurious, and leads to bondage. At least part of the answer lies in adapting eastern philosophy to our more individualistic culture.
Very sleepy now, I’ve tried to be as coherent as possible. PS I think there will be some development about the case soon

Reply
October 18, 2008

amyv

Hi Greg and Gompertz-

I am doing fine thank you for your concern. Starting back to work Monday. However, my computer broke down again. It is an emachine I bought one and half years ago. And it has been terrible. We have had to send it off more than once. Now, it is out of warrantyb and they want us to pay to ship it to them and fix the hard drive. No way. I will just save up for a new one. Do not buy and emachine. O.k. got that off of my chest.

Yes, it is a shame how hard society is on women. You do not see this pressure to look younger and be thinner put on men. It is a terrible pressure to always look good.

As far as these girls and the comments are concerned her is my feellings. I myself have used the word fat to describe a couple of these girls and yes these words were said out of anger.

What angered me to this point, was not that the girls are overweight but, that the victim was much smaller. That certainlly would have been a kinder way to put it. But, sometimes I find kindness for these girls beyond what I am able to display.

I do not believe that if the girls were anorexic looking or prettier, it would have made a difference on how this crime was viewed. The crime itself was very ugly. However, the size difference between the main beater and the victim did make the beating even more unbalanced.

Reply
October 20, 2008

gompertz

amy,my computer is down too, using someone else’s for a few minutes. I just wanted to clarify something I said before, about comments about bodily appearance. I was referring to people who say nasty things just to be hurtful, like some who were banned from this blog a few months ago. Just like the ones in the Ledger comments who noticed a zit on Mercades face and went on and on about it. They thought a facial blemish was as serious as accusations of violence. Now I aalso wanted to say this, I found out there are people who enjoy those “girl fight” videos so much they get together and discuss them, and judge the participants according to fighting ability and physical attractiveness. Sad but true. So now it seems a girl must not only strive to conform to a barbie doll ideal of beauty, but also know how to fight like a man! This is progress?Seeing how easy it is to access these sordid exhibitions, even children can do so with no effort, I realize what depths of depravity these children are exposed to. Those girls in Lakeland were probably familiar with this form of “entertainment” and influenced by it. That is why I have said I consider them also to be victims, because the entertainment industry inundates us with this kind of thing until it seems normal, especially to children, who have no other refernce. It was very different in the 60’s when I was that age. At that time the most brutal beatings inflicted on students came from the priests and niuns who taught us, and if students got into fights, they were severely dealt with, leading to suspensions and expulsions. That leads me to have a completely different view of the world than these kids. How can I honestly say that, if I were exposed to the environment of violence prevalent in schools today, I wouldn’t be making the same kind of mistakes? No, I will never deny that what they did to Victoria was terrible, and deserving of punishment. I just try not to jiudge too harshly because I too am fallible. Well, my cmputer time is up, until next time sometime.

Reply
October 20, 2008

amyv

I to attended Catholic school and endured the wrath of the nuns. Athough, not to the severity of the 60’s. They had calmed down some them. But, one thing we learned was you showed total respect for adults.

Their is no excuse for what teachers have to tolerate. These kids are so disrespectful. And, with teachers pay I don’t know how they can tolerate. Never when we were young would a student dare to lay a hand on a teacher. Now, these teachers face the possibility of violence everday. They deserve hazard pay. This teenagers are not reprimanded for their actions.

I know that the girl fights on the internet and in school yards are a great form of entertainment. Where I disagree with you, is they need to start severely punishing this behavior. It has gotten way out of hand. And, these bully girls have been getting away with it. So, I think expulsions, police intervention, and charges need to start being implemented to put a stop to some of this.

They have learned their are no consequences. And, since we did not engage in this activity when we were younger because of the fear of consequences, they need to start being punished.

I also had a thought about these girls looks. I think if they had looked like barbie dolls, they might have been judged more harshly. Called spoiled rich girls.

These girls do not seem like they are poor to me. Mercades grandmother’s house was certainly no dump. So you can argue the case either way. Either we can blame on looks,not pretty enough or too pretty. Being poor drove them to do it. Or being rich and spoiled caused it.

Reply
October 21, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I got my computer back! At the Apple store, they showed me how and it was simple. Macs are much simpler than PCs and they have developed some great software. Just saying. Anyway I felt I had to amplify my previous comments on “girl fights”. Here is what I think. They look like pornography, in fact, they are child pornography. What kind of people enjoy watching girls beating each other up? I know, there are men who tell me it’s all just entertainment but I don’t believe they are being honest. Just see what kind of advertising accompanies these sites, it’s hard core pornography, as one would expect. However, I don’t think the answer is to ban them from the internet, that is just sweeping the toxic dirt under the rug. I do think these sites should be made less accessible, so that anyone who really wants to see this kind of thing would have to register in a way that would identify them to law enforcement, just in case they are tempted to translate their voyeuristic tendencies into actions that harm anyone. Also the operators of these sites should be compelled to cooperate with the authorities in case criminal acts are caught on camera. While many of these fights are relatively innocuous, some look like criminal attacks, and seem to result in possibly serious injuries. According to the accompanying comments, these attacks are witnessed by tens of thousands of people, yet you never hear about them. Only a tiny percentage ever make it to Oreilly or Nancy Grace. Why? Some of them look just as disturbing as the Lakeland beating. They are shorter in time, but it doesn’t take long to destroy someone physically and mentally. And aren’t they like kidnapping? If you are lying on the ground being stomped and kicked repeatedly, you’re not leaving. So I advocate greater surveillance, and requiring site operators to provide information to the police if there is a suspicion of a crime. Now, the majority of these fights seem to be entered into by mutual agreement and do little if any physical harm. Yet they are still indicative of a disturbing trend. Why do these girls feel they had to subject themselves to this kind of abuse to please their boyfriends? It seems to be considered acceptable for these young men to treat women the way Michael Vick treated his dogs. So the downward spiral continues. I must add another qualification to these remarks. It is this. I think it’s great that girls are learning self-defense. I know of many female martial artists who make a good living winning tournaments and giving lessons. But no one should confuse that with what we see in these videos. The martial artists have self-respect, and are exponents of a spiritual tradition that gives their lives meaning and a sense of wholeness. That is what is missing from the lives of the girls in these videos. They have no respect for themselves and nothing to live for beyond instant gratification. I have repeatedly advocated spiritual guidance and meditation, but that also is a road with many pitfalls, not easy to travel. And it isn’t up to me to force my views on anyone. But if someone’s life is so empty and miserable as these peoples’ they might be led to confront their own misery and turn to something better. Maybe facing the possibility of life in prison will do the trick. Maybe. Another thought occurs to me now. It might look like I am more lenient toward these girls just because they are girls. It’s possible. It’s just because I have seen so many times how women are mistreated by men, and the men get away with it. These impressions go back a long way. Just one early example. In college I had several roommates who bragged about getting their girlfriends pregnant and then leaving them. These fine young men went on to successful careers as lawyers and bankers, while the women they left were not so fortunate. In those days a single woman with a child was socially ostracized much more than today. And they didn’t even have Roe v. Wade yet. So yes, I am inclined to be less hard on the young women who get into these sordid fights than the men who put them up to it, and those (mostly men) who fuel the interest in them, and most of all those who profit from them. And let me conclude by repeating again, yes, I do believe these girls who did this must be punished. But I also believe they must be given the chance to turn their lives around and move on.

Reply
October 25, 2008

GregS

“I do think these sites should be made less accessible, so that anyone who really wants to see this kind of thing would have to register in a way that would identify them to law enforcement, just in case they are tempted to translate their voyeuristic tendencies into actions that harm anyone.”

I don’t think censorship is helpful. The more we see this the sooner we’ll recognize what the real problem is. When I was a teenager I remember when fights would happen and how hundreds of people would gather around. It’s human nature to watch a fight, which is why we have sports like boxing, wrestling, and MMA.

The problem here isn’t 1 vs 1 fighting. The problem is 5 vs 1 bullying. When you censor the bullying it actually promotes the behavior further. So I think it’s actually a good thing to have the videos exist. That being said I don’t think these videos should be something sites profit from, so while I’m fine with it being uploaded on YouTube, I’m not fine with it being uploaded to porn sites if what you say is true.

My point is that when criminal acts are caught on camera it’s called evidence. Evidence of a crime, or just evidence in general, and if we blame YouTube, or the fact that the act is recorded, or the people viewing it, it’s placing the blame on individuals who didn’t commit a crime. And no it’s not a crime to view women or men fighting. Just as it’s not a crime to watch boxing, MMA, or view it in person.

It is a crime to kidnap a person, lock them in a house, and beat them up 5v1. I don’t think this would be such a big deal if it were just 1 on 1 and both girls were fighting each other, thats not bullying thats a fight, and both agreed to it.

Reply
October 25, 2008

GregS

gompertz don’t let your emotions get the best of you. Yes these are girls but thats not whats important. What you really have to consider is that these are young minds, young doesn’t have anything to do with physical age but spiritual advancement. These are young minds that don’t know right from wrong.

It’s not about male and female minds, it’s about young and old minds. Old minds know through reasoning or experience that certain behaviors are wrong. Young minds are just like a child that dont know about gravity, they might walk off a cliff clutching their doll. It’s difficult to blame a mind which doesn’t know or understand whats guiding them off the cliff, but it’s the string pulling their doll which they are following which is guiding them off the cliff.

An old mind can control the strings because we/they can SEE the strings and others cant. Censorship ultimately only hides the doll but it doesn’t change the fact that the young minds will just be pulled off the cliff by something else, so that’s like changing the subject in hopes of forgetting about the problem. I say we should stay on the subject and analyze the videos and evidence. It’s like pointing out the strings which guide the behavior itself, so that we can gain control of those strings and redirect them.

The energy and forces at work don’t have anything to do with whether or not there are videos on YouTube. The people who like to watch fighting have a predisposition or instinct to like watching violence, and they need an outlet. The people who like to fight have a predisposition and instinct to like being violent and they need an outlet. When you ban the videos it doesn’t change the fact that you have hundreds of millions of people who have certain instincts which need an outlet somewhere.

I say the outlet should be virtual rather than physical, but if it must be physical then it should be organized 1vs1 duels, in a boxing or kickboxing ring, where there is a ref. Let them fight it out, let the people who like to watch fighting watch it and bet on it, and when it’s over, hopefully if they’ll decide to become prize fighters and at least they don’t bully innocent people.

Aggression and violence is an instinct, therefore it’s like an energy source which we can only direct into safe outlets but which cannot be diminished or removed.

Reply
October 25, 2008

GregS

With all that being said, I don’t think Victoria is a fighter at all. I think that people who aren’t fighters shouldn’t be challenged to a duel.

On the other hand if you know someone is of the same size and weight, and has the fighters instinct, what you ought to do is challenge them 1 on 1 in the ring. That’s what I’d do rather than 5v1.

Reply
October 25, 2008

gompertz

Greg, rereading what I wrote I don’t see where I was calling for censorship. For example, there is technology in place that makes it possible for parents to prevent their children from being exposed to certain things on TV and the Internet. Would you call that censorship? If so, yes I am in favor of censorship, when it comes to children, simply because they lack the maturity to process some of the more sordid aspects of reality. I just don’t see equating regulation with censorship. As for fight videos on the Internet, the problem is that they are unregulated. I first became aware of the whole phenomenon of “girl fights” through this case we are discussing. That was in April. I did not get my first computer until end of May, so only then did I begin to understand what it was about, when I started surfing the Net. And yes, I was shocked by some of the images. As I stated above, many of the fights are relatively innocuous, being one-on-one and even exhibiting a certain attentiveness to rules of fair play. That may be OK though I still have a problem with it, which I did express above and will reiterate in a minute. The main problem is that mixed in with these are some, a small percentage, which are anything but benign. I’m sure you can access them if you want, I saw some I don’t ever want to see again, and they were truly sickening, in the same way that the Lakeland video was, involving the brutal beating of helpless, unwilling victims. Yes, they are there, and I cannot help but think that I have just witnessed a violent crime. I don’t look at them again, but I cannot get these images out of my mind, and just like my concern for Victoria, I wonder about these victims. I don’t care to even describe them further, if you look long enough you will know what I mean. I don’t really recommend it. Still, I certainly agree that they should NOT be banned, especially since they can serve as evidence for law enforcement. I would like to know if these violent acts are actually being prosecuted. The problem is that the operators of these sites are not required to provide information that would assist the police, and so these acts of violence go unpunished. At least that is my understanding, and if I am mistaken, perhaps someone could correct me. You state correctly that it is not a crime to watch people fighting. True. I think it is not even a crime to watch someone being beat up, though I’m not sure about that. However, here’s my problem. I know men here in NY, quite a few in fact, who are fans of girlfights, and I really don’t think their enjoyment is the same kind of enjoyment that one gets from boxing or UFC. I myself have a collection of videos of Muay Thai fights in Thailand, very violent, and yes I do understand the interest is such things. But those who enjoy girl fights include a number of individuals for whom the interest is more sinister. I base this opinion at least partially on my own observations of the reactions of these individuals, including their excited gestures and verbal cues. It is on that basis that I call it pornographic, because for these individuals it provides that kind of enjoyment. And remember these are mostly underage girls who are providing that enjoyment, so the added stigma of pedophilia is applicable here. It may be argued that for some people, the enjoyment really is innocent, like watching a boxing match. I give them the benefit of the doubt. But I stand by the contention that for many it is not innocent. It all depends on the individual. I believe that some people just can’t watch these things without being stimulated in ways that may lead to their being tempted to commit crimes (probably against children). People do vary in their ability to process certain stimuli. That is why I favor regulation, so that potential troublemakers can be identified. And I believe that sex crimes against children are so vile that such control(not censorship) should be exercised, even if it inconveniences some innocent viewers. So if I were told that I could not view a Muay Thai match without entering a special ID code, I could live with that, knowing it serves the purpose of protecting children. But of course the “security vs. freedom” argument will go on and on. Let me underscore my concern by presenting an argument that could be made against my case for regulation. It may be said that it is not fair to restrict access to sites that are enjoyed by many just because some individuals(presumably disturbed) can’t handle them. Take examples of sexual deviations such as those discussed in Kraft-Ebbing’s epic study of the subject. A perversion like bestiality afflicts only a comparatively small number of people. Images that stimulate someone so afflicted would presumably not have the same effect on normal people. Kraft-Ebbing mentions cases of men being stimulated by seeing someone riding a horse. Should we forbids horseback riding(at least in public places) just because some deviate might derive improper pleasure from it? Yes, I would accept that kind of argument in this kind of case, and bestiality tends to elicit laughter rather than horror, at least when discussed by someone like Al Franken. But I reject that kind of argument and others like it which I have heard, because I do not see any analogy with sex crimes against children. I believe that such crimes are so egregious, so inherently evil, that anything that has a reasonable risk of stimulating such behavior needs to be given special treatment. I believe girl fight videos are such a risk. It is important to note that I base this view not on abstract arguments but on my own observations. I have seen that some videos which most people find horrifying,like the Lakeland video, are viewed with great enjoyment by some, and those who enjoy it, and watch it over and over, are sick. It’s not just a matter of taste. I understand the enjoyment of horror movies, viewing maiming and mutilation and murder. I also understand dark humor, I’ve listened to my share of “dead baby” jokes. But there are videos here, like the Lakeland one, with real victims, and there is no sign of any consequences. Remember that the Lakeland girls were only caught because the video did not make it to Youtube. If it had not been intercepted and handed over to the police, there would probably have been no prosecution. They understood this. That’s why theyr told Victoria that if she went to the police, they would beat her even worse. So putting it on the Internet to be viewed by thousands would not jeopardize the perpetrators, if only the police were not called in by the victim. That is why greater regulation is needed. Just having it on video is not enough. There must be measures in place that allow police to identify the people on the videos, and website operators must be held accountable to provide that information. It’s a huge country, and the internet provides anonymity, even if you film yourself in the commission of criminal acts. Also, as for the pornographic advertising accompanying these sites. That doesn’t apply to Youtube, usually. Youtube has cleaned up its act pretty much. The really nasty girl fights have simply moved to other sites. As far as I can tell, blogs make money on advertising. Including. Like blogs, the fight websites carry advertisments along the side, outside the viewing area. Since their advertising tends to be hardcore pornography, I can only conclude that they know the tastes of their viewers. Just like if you watch Spongebob Squarepants or iCarly on the Nick channel, you will see advertisements that appeal to children. And if you watch girl fight videos on Gorillafights or Fightzilla websites, you will see a different kind of advertising. So I think I’m justified in seeing a connection between girl fights and pornography.

Reply
October 25, 2008

gompertz

One thing I forgot. I said I would add a comment on the videos that I call “relatively innocuous” and why I think they are really not as harmless as they seem. So I feel I must append this to my already lengthy post, just because I said I would. It is not these fights themselves that is the problem. AsI said, I know some female martial artists who fight in tournaments. Good for them. Here is the difference. These girl fights are often(or mostly) organized and instigated by boys who want to see these girls fight. What’s wrong with that? Well, nothing at all, if the girls really want to fight. It’s great for girls to learn self-defense. Sure, it wasn’t like that when I was young, but it’s a new world and I think it’s a good thing. I’ve always believed in women’s liberation. Still, in many of these videos the girls don’t seem to want to fight, and don’t fight very well at all. Probably they are not interested in fighting and only do so to please their boy friends. It’s the attitudes of these boys that bothers me. “If you love me, you’ll fight this other girl” they seem to be saying. Not that different from “If you love me, you’ll get bigger breasts” I would say. So what could be so liberating becomes just another form of bondage. I think it’s great that women are becoming more self-reliant. But they must take control of their lives. That means you fight if you want, preferably under the guidance of trained martial artists rather than immature boys, and if you don’t want to fight but would rather “stay home and make cookies” well, dammit, that’s your right too! I’ve seen too many young women suffer because they care too much about what a boyfriend thinks. You ask what made Mercades do what she did. I ask too. I suspect it was her excessive feelings for a boyfriend who just wasn’t worth it. She was hurt by this creep and it felt so bad she decided to act tough to please him, because that’s the way a girl pleases a boy nowadays. That’s my problem with these videos. No problem at all if the girl is really doing what she wants, but a big problem if it becomes just another form of control. Sorry I get carried away and start ranting but I feel very strongly about this, having seen so much pain that could have been avoided with clear thinking and meditation. To all young women I say:these guys are a dime a dozen, none are worth fighting over. I don’t always organize my thoughts as well as I could, I hope now I’ve clarified a little better what my position is.

Reply
October 26, 2008

GregS

“That is why I favor regulation, so that potential troublemakers can be identified. ”

I agree with regulating convicted sex offenders. But if the individual just likes watching girls fight, and these girls are underage, yes I can agree with you that this is creepy, but unless they take actual steps to do something, like if they were actually arranging situation then I’d agree with you.

I think it depends entirely on their level of involvement and not so much whether they view it. I do think that when they admit that they like this sort of thing it makes their proclivities yes we should pay attention to the fact that there is a demographic of individuals who have dangerous proclivities. But I do not believe in thought crimes because I don’t think individuals have any control over their thoughts.

I believe we have to outlaw very specific patterns of behavior associated with people who have the proclivity. For example it should be an extra offense of we find that an adult planned, conspired or exploited teenagers in these situations. But if it’s adults just watching the videos, it’s creepy, but to put them in a database just for having creepy thoughts is a thought crime and in my opinion not in the same league as sexual assault or sex crimes.

I agree with you, I’d rather the girls be over 18 when they become prize fighters. I favor formal rules to the fighting. I think it’s wrong to deliberately “pervert” the situation by putting girlfight videos on pornsites, because thats deliberately creating the association in the minds of men. But the situation in my opinion is such that this would be happening even if there were no videos, there would simply be stories, or books and movies like lolita which further “pervert” the minds of men.

So if it’s directly contributing to or causing the harm of a minor, then I’m all for outlawing that. The cause has to be directly linked, such as if a group of these adult makes physically go to these fights, film them, and cheer them on, then these adults need to be arrested and charged because they become part of the problem which produces the market for these situations.

On the internet at least a far as I knew, nobody is allowed to profit from this evidence. If we find out they are profiting from it, the penalties should be extremely high, years in prison because we can see a direct link between the crime, and a money trail, and the main thing I worry about is the girlfights underground community becoming an organized industry, that has to be stopped. And the bumfighting industry must be stopped as well.

I don’t think we should allow people to make profits from crime. That’s my official stance on crime. But I’m all about free speech, civil liberties and human rights so I don’t think the underground community shouldn’t exist at all, I just think they need to be regulated in the sort of way that no new victims are created by their behavior. They can have sick thoughts if that what their brain is built for, but if they try to act any of it out they should go to prison.

I don’t know if manipulation causes girls to fight, it probably does. But girls manipulate boys to fight in the same way and there is a boyfight underground as well. If they agree to fight for their gf or bfs honor, I think it’s a fair situation, I even think it’s fair if there is a prize(even if the prize is love) and two people fight for that. I don’t think it’s fair if the fight is just one person beating on a defenseless individual. I don’t really consider that to be a real fight. I also don’t consider an unfair fight to be something worth bragging about.

It’s one thing if you kick someones ass who is the same size, weight, as you, who wants to fight you and you film that. It can be arranged formally through a contract, where they each sign their names on the dotted line so there wont be the possibility to sue each other after wards. I’m very much in favor of formal duels, I’m very much against bullying, there is a huge difference.

It’s not really about gender. Bums are being made to fight for crack and that to me is as bad, and often these are men. The people going around offering crack to homeless crack heads to convince them to fight each other, is exploiting the crackhead for their own profits. So it’s not that I entirely disagree with what you are saying, just the gender angle is what I disagree with.

I know I posted the video on how the media destroys the minds of women and how women are exploited, but men are exploited too. This is happening to both genders and I’d say men are being programmed to be violent as well.

I’d say we have to ignore stuff like race, gender, and things such as that and look entirely at the behavior. The behavior of the person who exploits the crackhead bums into fighting is very similar to the behavior of the person who exploits teenage girls. The individual adopting this behavior doesn’t care about the life of wellbeing of the subject. This individual also doesn’t care what the consequences are.

I’m all for prize fighting, but making people who are clearly vulnerable fight for crumbs, or for your own amusement to me is just as bad as offering individuals medicine which will make them sicker, or offering them bad loans which you know they cannot afford to pay. There ought to be some standards, all sports have standards, this should be made into an actual sport, if people want to fight MMA style for money it should be treated as a sport and not done in this sorta way. The Romans had the Olympics, duels have always existed through Asia, Africa and America, and there were always rules. The rules evolved over time to become MMA and prize fighting, the most humane way to fight, and I suppose what we could do is promote MMA, kickboxing, boxing and prize fighting so that the youth can fight the correct/honorable way.

Reply
October 26, 2008

GregS

“She was hurt by this creep and it felt so bad she decided to act tough to please him, because that&rsquos the way a girl pleases a boy nowadays.”

Boys please girls this way also. Don’t forget that boys are just as vulnerable to that as girls.

Reply
October 26, 2008

GregS

And you are also correct, if a guy, or a girl, demands you fight PHYSICALLY to defend their honor, you better be sure they are willing to fight to defend yours, and most of the time they aren’t.

Partners should protect each other and each others interest, thats loyalty. If the partner is trying to talk you into doing something which will have bad consequences for you, simply because it will make them feel better emotionally, don’t do it. On the other hand if you love a partner you do have a responsibility to protect them, it’s just about knowing how do to so in a way which is smart.

So yes it’s important to be willing to fight to protect a partner, but thats not the same as fighting physically over words on the internet.
Sure I can understand the emotion behind it, and it’s just not smart.

Reply
October 26, 2008

gompertz

Greg, as usual you make many good points and I have just a few followup comments. In drawing my conclusions I rely mainly on my own observations of people in various social settings. Some of my contacts are devout Buddhists, some are violent people who live on the other side of the law. By being very tolerant I get to observe all varieties of human behavior,and sometimes even to intervene, hopefully, in a positive way. I have found it easier to find the “dark side” in New York than in places like Pittsburgh or Oklahoma City. And I suspect I’m not alone in that opinion. I just thought I would interject a personal note in case anyone wonders what my own involvement is. Thanks for reminding me of bumfights. I see that as another variation on the same theme, of exploiting the weak. Yes, I am certainly aware that men can be victinized, and that women can be just as cold-hearted, manipulative, violent and cruel as men. Also, while I fully support the women’s lib movement, I realize that it is a social revolution with far-reaching and sometimes unpredictable consequences. Still I have reservations, because (I am happy to say) men and women are still different, and, as far as I know, any abolition of these differences is still in the realm of science fiction. Only women get pregnant, and the statistics on single-parent homes clearly shows most are headed by women. It’s so much easier for a man to evade his responsibilities. Also, while men get battered too, it’s usually the man doing the battering. You just have to look at the individual cases. In the particular case of Mercades, I stand by my opinion, that she was the victim. I once asked on this blog, what kind of man would take out an order of projection against a girl. I still ask it, in this case. (Of course I’m only referring here to the prior case, involving the boyfriend. The beating case is another matter, still some things are murky about her involvement there). And I’m basing my opinion on my reading of the facts as stated in the affidavits. What is presented there shows that she seems to have emotional issues, but of the kind that could be dealt with by counseling, not imprisonment. But then I’m not on the jury. Just one more point, on the matter of profiting from these fights. I really don’t know what the laws are. There are of course laws forbidding gambling, or at least regulating it. But my understanding (I may be wrong) is websites make money on advertising. Blogs are a kind of website and I do see advertisements there. Now I don’t expect any blog operator to reveal trade secrets, but I believe that’s all legitimate. My big problem is with the lack of responsibility of blog operators. Bill O’Reilly recently showed a video of an infant being physically abused, which appeared on some site. It was not easy for the police to trace the source. The site operator can simply claim he doesn’t know the source. He is not required to keep precise records about where it came from, it seems. It is difficult to see how that can be changed without running into some First Amendment issues. Just like when Al Jazeera airs a video from ben Laden. You can’t hold the people at Al Jazeera responsible to reveal where he is, they probably don’t know anyway. Now I just want to raise one last point. You said above that you don’t want to put people in a database for their thoughts, and I agree. I wonder if you could clarify when you think database are appropriate, if there is a general principle here.

Reply
October 26, 2008

gompertz

Correction: that should have read: the responsibility of site operators…

Reply
October 26, 2008

GregS

The sex offender database is appropriate when an individual is convicted of a sex crime. I don’t think an individual should go into the database for just their thoughts alone, but if there clearly are victims and they are the victimizer then they need to go into the database.

I support the human liberation movement also known as libertarianism. I support women and mens rights. I think Mercades has to get jailtime because she’s being charged with kidnapping, even if it’s true that she never laid a hand on Victoria, the punishment system must be consistent and apply to all equally. I cannot say that prison really helps anyone, but thats because prisons often aren’t designed to help, and thats a different issue, but on crime I’m strict and consistent, kidnapping is a serious crime, and from the looks of it, it seems that all the potential witnesses are making deals and will be claiming Mercades masterminded the entire thing. I don’t know what the truth is, the jury will sort it out, but if you commit a crime you must pay the consequences no matter if you are male, female, child or adult.

I do think there should be more options for people in prison so they can actually grow intellectually and spiritually while they are there. I don’t think prison should JUST be about punishment, it also has to be about reform and changing the bad habits which lead them there in the first place. Because it’s a violent crime, I don’t think anyone expects it to lead to just counseling and the main reason it cannot lead to that is because millions of people are watching this trial and if these teens receive no jail time at all, then there will be thousands of new videos like this on Myspace, and Youtube because teenagers will believe they can get away with it.

And I think the reason Mercades BF took out the protection order on her is because he was either afraid of her, or perhaps he didn’t want to be violent towards her. It’s complicated but there are valid reasons why men can take out restraining orders against women, women can be dangerous, and the bf in this case claims Mercades paid or tried to pay someone to beat him up, so what do we expect him to do in that situation? I’m not saying he’s a good guy, from what I read about him he’s not, but it does seem like he was scared and felt threatened.

I think in Mercades case, she seems to have grown up in a bad environment, she had bad friends, and I know how it is, I grew up in an environment just as bad and I know that yes her environment and the friends she had probably are what lead to this. But that has little or nothing to do with the trial as probably the majority of people in jail are in jail for similar reasons. If you were involved in a robbery, whether or not you actually carried a gun or shot anyone, or even took any money, if you are just involved, you’ll go to prison.

About databases, I think we need databases which record sex crimes, violent crime and domestic violence. If you beat up your wife, or your gf and you get charged and convicted, you should go into a database. If you punch a random old man in the face and stomp on him and he charges you and you get convicted of assault, you should go into a database.

This is for the purposes of backround checks. If an individual has a violent history it should be known. If an individual is a sex offender it should be known. Women and men should be able to conduct backround checks, it will help prevent domestic abuse situations and protect children from being abused by sex offenders.

I don’t think websites have to trace the source of all this stuff. Thats law enforcements job. The FBI has tools which can monitor internet traffic at the ISP level with deep package inspection. Now I think website operators should have the right to sell or volunteer information to law enforcement which might be related to a crime, but this information could just be related information and not a direct link to a source.

They can sell their logs for example. They can sell information about which websites certain individuals are browsing for, they can do little things but blog owners are not law enforcement. Law enforcement at least violent crime and child porn, should be handled at the ISP level, you go to the ISP of the blog owner and you ask them for their logs of who connected, you can piece it all together to figure out which account uploaded the file.

But it’s ultimately the responsibility of the person who uploads the original distribution. You find that person and you question them, the blogs, they are just relaying copies. It’s better for law enforcement and for accomplishing the goals tactically if we let people upload whatever BS they want and monitor it in secret, and go after the most extreme cases using paid informants.

Rather simple, you pay them to tell you where they got the video from, or you threaten to put them in prison for it unless they help you track it to the source.

Reply
January 24, 2009

myriskalen

mercades should be disciplined.

Reply
July 3, 2009

gompertz

I know, here I am again, commenting on this case, blah, blah…but wait!
Now they could start a whole new thread with the title MERCADES NICHOLS ARRESTED AGAIN because guess what- it just happened again!
According to the Lakeland Ledger http://www.theledger.com/article/20090702/NEWS/90…

I wonder how those mental health and anger management evaluations worked out?

Reply
July 3, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Gomp, I just posted that…
https://thetrenchcoat.com/2009/07/03/mercades-n…

Reply