Mercades Nichols’ mom files lawsuit

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This one is from the “Boy does that woman have brass ones” department.

Christina Garcia is the mother of Mercades Nichols. Mercades is one of if not the main suspect in the videotaped beating of Victoria Lindsay.

You would think that Ms. Garcia has more important matters to attend to like making sure her daughter stays out of jail but no. Ms. Garcia has taken it upon herself to file a lawsuit against Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd for making ‘defamatory’ remarks and causing ‘severe emotional damages’.

In her intent to sue notice, Bernard wrote that Judd failed to handle the arrest of the teens “with integrity and a degree of care” that would have protected them “against unfair treatment and exposure.”

Judd has described the March 30 beating in published news stories as “animalistic” and said that after the teens were arrested, they were laughing together in a holding cell, saying “Am I going to miss cheerleading practice?” and “I guess we’re not going to the beach this week.”

I didn’t know you could be sued for the truth. Garcia’s face is causing me severe emotional damages. Can I sue for that?

Comments

1,469 responses to “Mercades Nichols’ mom files lawsuit”

July 22, 2008

Laurie

No wonder this girl takes no accountability for her crime.

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July 22, 2008

John

That is the biggest load of bullcrap I have ever heard. And I’ve heard about some seriously stupid lawsuits (a woman sued Kraft foods because the guacamole she bought didn’t have enough avacado in it. I can’t make this crap up). I would love to see the judge take one look at this, laugh, and throw the lawsuit papers in her face.

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July 23, 2008

Navigator

What is that old saying that goes something like “keep your mouth shut and no one knows your an idiot or open it and remove all doubt”? She has removed ALL DOUBT to EVERYONE that she is #1 – a HORRIBLE mother #2. an idiot and #3. a gold digger. Since the beginning of this she has tried to get as much media attention that she can FOR HERSELF!!! NO WONDER her daughter is a mess. I, as a parent, would be humiliated, and would not want to even show my face. BUT SHE wants to put down the victim, make her daughter out to be an angel and tries to find any angle possible that will get tem “famous” in some way. I would not doubt that she was not only aware of the beating as it occured, but if she was not there herself.

It is so sad that Mercedes had to get into such trouble to spark her mothers interest in her life. When asked by the media if she knew any of the girls or parents of these girls, she said she had just spoken with them the night before. She also gave up rights to Mercedes and gave her to her mother to raise. YEAH, SHE IS SUCH A GREAT MOTHER!!!!!!!! Lord help us all !!!

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July 23, 2008

Garland

OK, so she’s suing the sherrif just because he’s speaking the truth about her? What a joke. She’ll have a fat chance of seeing a dime. First of all, she has to prove that he defamed her, secondly, she has to prove actual damages, real economic damages before she can even claim emotional damages or trauma, thirdly, she has to show that her own actions, i.e., her own criminal background aren’t what is preventing people from hiring her. The Sheriff is entitled to express an opinion, in public or not, and he is entitled to characterize the actions of a criminal defendant in a certain way. Not to mention that he has a certain amount of statutory immunity from suit.

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July 23, 2008

mark

C&rsquomon guys&hellip.Ms. Garcia has got it right&hellip.what Sheriff Grady Judd should have said was &ldquolook at those precious girls, aren&rsquot they just adorable how they beat upon this other girl?&rdquo and &ldquolook at Mercades just cozy up on that sofa with a pillow&rdquo isn&rsquot that beautiful?? And how she gave advice on how to give the camera more light when everyone was berating Tori, we all just fail to see how accommodating Mercades really is. The sheriff should have looked directly at the camera and offer these magnificent, well behaved polite teenagers the offer to baby-sit your toddlers, what role models they would be!!!!
And let us not forget the lawyer&hellip.OMG, actually taking this case&hellip.oh how far we dropped&hellip.

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July 24, 2008

John

People generally do not understand how the legal process works but everyone needs to understand that this video would have gotten to the media without Sheriff Judd. When a person is charged with a crime all evidence against that person is available to the defense and the prosecution in what is called a “Discovery”. The discovery and every other part of the process is “Public Information”. This simply means as soon as the video was submitted into evidence the media would have had access to it and the media circus would have started anyway. Judd simply beat the media to the punch by showing the video. Florida has what is called the Sunshine Law in reference to public information. ANYTHING that is submitted to the goverment, by the goverment, or through the goverment can be accessed. Judd is a phenominal Sheriff who takes no trash from anyone. He says what he means and means what he says. Thanks to Judd bad guys have a saying about Polk County “Come on vacation, leave on probation, come back on a violation”. THis mother is hoping she can file a lawsuit and Judd will settle with her to keep it from going to court. Judd is not a liberal politician….she will not get a dime from him. This once again shows what kind of person Garcia is. For the record Mecedes did not live with her mother when this incident happened. SHe lived with her grandmother in Highland City. Garcia lives in Polk City, Florida. Seems to me she did not want anything to do with her until there was fame or money involved. Bad things come to bad people. Judd is the people’s Sheriff and the people will stand behind him.

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July 24, 2008

Amyv

I could not agree with you more. This mother is just beyond words. She doesn’t raise her child. She crawls out from under a rock to defend her “sweet angel” so she can get her face on t.v. She takes her daughter to court with a request from the lawyer that the girl be able to go on talk shows. Then when that doesn’t work and the whole Dr. Phil deal falls through, she wants to sue the sheriff. For what. money. That would be ridiculous and that should go to the grandmother if god forbid they ever got any. This mother should go back to where she came from. Sell her sex toys and shut up. Where is Judge Judy when you need her. This mother is NOT RAISING this girl. If I were the victims parents this mother and her daughter would be in civil court so fast their heads would spin. (If they don’t already i.e. the exorcist lol). That is after the criminal trials are over. Does this mother actually have the nerve to say that this has caused mental anguish to her daughter. We all know some of the people in the town have the same opinion about all of these teenagers. Any mental anguish they are feeling they deserve and “you brought it all on yourselves sweeties” quoting one of these animals telling that to the victim on the tape. That made my blood boil. But, seems to be an appropriate statement for these girls now. What goes around comes around. You wanted your fame you got it. Just not exactly what you expected. “unfair treament and exposure”, they idiots taped it. Unfair treatment yes to the VICTIM, exposure THAT IS WHAT THEY WANTED. You are going to sue for exactly what these girls were intending the whole time. “integrity” the lawyer must have had to explain to the mother what that word meant. Obviously, not in her vocabulary. Mark really enjoyed your comments. The sheriff spoke the truth. I commend him and I wish crimes were handled this way more often, instead of the perps getting all the privledges. Good job Judd. Keep it up.

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July 26, 2008

Lonny

When I saw this fat, ugly, b*tch on TV boo-hooing about how she didn’t have money to bail out her precious little DEMON of a girl a few months ago, I had a gut instinct that she wanted to make a profit from this incident.

And guess what? Dr. Phil came to the rescue, bailed the little miscreant out to be on the show, and then backed out, blaming his staff for paying for Mercades’ bail when the public outcry became too much to handle.

I seriously doubt she’ll get a penny from the lawsuit, but she WILL succeed in building a bigger tent for this media circus that has already proved to be profitable on her account.

I guarantee that there will be more monetary offers to this woman and sadly, she will accept them, come on TV, and make tons of dough.

:^(

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July 27, 2008

Amyv

Well if she does make any money off of this won’t that leave her open for a civil suit from the victim? If I were the victims parents I would sue her so fast her head would spin. She hasn’t even raised this teenager. I would like to see her go on Nancy Grace someday. She would tear her alive. Their has to be some kind of law from profiting from a crime. I think part of the suit is mental anguish she has suffered. What about the monster kid of hers. What kind of mental anguish do they think the victim has suffered. If it has caused them mental anguish GOOD. I do however feel sorry for the grandmother. She does not deserve to be put through what she has gone through. She tryed to help her trashy daughter by letting her trashy granddaughter live with her. She should go back to selling her sex toys and shut her mouth. She doesn’t care one bit about her daughter. If the public keeps up the outcry after the trial mayne these talk shows will back off. I doubt very seriously Dr. Phil would have her on. I think all of that bleach she puts on her hair has seeped into her brain.

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July 28, 2008

Greg

This is our fault. Society does not do a good job training people to be good.

Moral reasoning is a talent, just as some are good at math. While some may be a genius at decision making and determining right from wrong, others are morally retarded.

The way to deal with this as a society is to reward people who make the proper decisions and punish those who make the wrong decisions.

Currently society only punishes, nobody gets rewarded for being right, or being good. If one of us were there and were to get involved and rescue Victoria, society does not have any system set up to reward us with money or status.

This is why when girls like Victoria are in these situations we do nothing to help. Whats in it for me? Why assume I’m capable of advanced reasoning? My point is, rather than hating the girls responsible for this we should come up with some constructive solutions for how to properly train people into adopting correct behavior.

Pavlov conditioning works by offering rewards to reinforce correct behavior and dishing out punishments to discourage incorrect behavior.

How can we blame these girls if society rewards incorrect behavior and ignores correct behavior? Society does not care who gets hurt and has no compassion for victims, and so neither did these girls. Perhaps if people were rewarded for good behavior and rewarded when they end bullying there would be a lot less of it.

Maybe I’d give a damn if something were in it for me, but don’t expect me to give a damn out of some enlightened moral reasoning because we don’t all have that ability just like not all of us can do calculus or work on advanced math.

Lower your expectations and we can solve these problems.

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July 28, 2008

Greg

Laurie, some of us aren’t capable of feeling empathy, remorse, or advanced moral reasoning associated with these instincts.

To communicate with our kind, you must apply positive reinforcement(rewards) to correct behavior, and negative reinforcement(punishments) to incorrect behavior. The reason the situation is out of control is because the moral elitists believe that everybody is capable of figuring out right from wrong.

The truth is, if you leave it up to the individuals, there will be no such thing as right and wrong. It’s up to you, the people like you who have the ability to do the advanced moral calculus, to develop a formula for determining what right and wrong is, and then rewarding in a consistent manner based on this formula.

If you use the formula that it’s always wrong to harm people physically who have not physically harmed you, then you must reward us in every situation where we decide to do the right thing and not bully or beat up someone smaller, or even defend a smaller person.

If we take it further, now we are men, and we decide not to harm women and children, we should be rewarded for this behavior. On the other hand the people who through their lives bullied smaller kids, animals, and beat their wives, should be listed in a database and punished.

This is not currently what happens, currently society has no consistent right or wrong. At best the right and wrong is based on the bible and not based on reason and science, therefore it lacks credibility with people who do not believe in Jesus or God.

Right and wrong must be measured based on cause and effect, the outcomes of ones actions. I can determine for example that it would be wrong to kill the bullies who beat up Victoria not because I’d feel any remorse, or guilt, or feel bad about doing it, but because the consequences of this action would lead to outcomes which would be both bad for me, for the victim Victoria, and for the people who care about me.

Do I get any sort of recognition or reward for figuring this out? No, it’s considered an obvious conclusion. But it’s not obvious for everybody, and in my opinion moral courage should be rewarded and moral cowards punished.

If this does not happen, then I can promise you that in 5-10 years you can re-read this post and you’ll see that society will have become worse, and there will be more bullying, and even rapes and murders recorded and uploaded to the internet. And that’s just the beginning, the people who do this will realize that as long as they get caught there will be minimal consequences, and the more we reduce the consequences the more violence we will create.

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July 28, 2008

Navigator

Greg,

Great Reasoning! Makes alot of sense. It is to bad that we can not find a way to implement this into our society. Our criminals are running our system by complaining about not being rewarded for bad behavior. They get cable tv/good food/education and free shelter in prison and we wonder why we have repeat offenders. If we could truley punish the bad without having to be politicaly correct, our society would look differently upon doing something wrong. They would know there was a consequence to an action… today there are very few consequenses to actions and that has ruined our society.

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July 28, 2008

gompertz

greg thank you for some excellent points about social conditioning. It could be asked whether moral judgment is more like language skill, ie universal rather than unequally distributed like mathematical ability. What is clear is that today there is very little connection between good behavior and rewards. How did we get here? It began when modern science revealed the inadequacy of western religion and philosophy to provide a foundation for morality. As you say neither elitist ethics nor old time religion can be a basis for the regulation of modern society. May I suggest that methods derived from eastern philosophy, like Confucian ethics, more behavior-oriented and concerned with practice
rather than speculation, could supplement a behaviorist approach. On the personal level, yoga and tai chi create a greater receptivity to the methods of social conditioning you recommend. Some will say this is simplistic, but I am certain that if those young people who were involved in this horror had some exposure to meditation, tai chi, martial arts of some kind the whole thing could have been resolved without violence. Not because they were making abstract moral distinctions but because the habits of calm reflection developed through these disciplines would dispel negative emotions. Now that the deed is done I believe it is not too late to implement these disciplines of self-knowledge to allow healing and forgiveness. Certainly more effective than leaving it to Dr. Phil!

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July 28, 2008

John

Great points, guys. I agree with your statement about prisoners getting perks and such while they serve time, Navigator. I find it somewhat outrageous that people who have killed multiple other innocent (sometimes) people are allowed to watch TV and play basketball every day. Sometimes you just have to make it harsh- solitary confinement, no playtime, and your family has to pay for your food, etc instead of us taxpayers. If not wanting to go to prison isn’t enough incentive, maybe the we should make the consequences affect those around these people. They may not care if they have to spend the rest of their life in prison, but if they drag their family down with them, maybe they’ll think twice. That may be a little harsh, but I can see how it might stop some of the senseless violence out there.
Prison really should be reserved for the murderers, rapists, etc., not for people who got in there because of the three strikes law because they have a drug problem. I’m not saying that their involvement in drugs shouldn’t go unpunished, I just think that life is not an appropriate sentence for three drug-related felonies. If they end up spending their life in prison because of 5-10 year sentences for each drug charge, so be it, but not because of three. We’re running out of room in our prisons, and we the taxpayers are spending way too much money to support those who have wronged society in some way.

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July 29, 2008

Navigator

John,

Agreed. Maybe we should have jobs in prison for the prisoner to work off thier debt to society. Some form of assmbly that they HAVE to work, they gain no pay, they are given a salary that goes directly to the state. They receive a paper that shows how much they could have made if they were free. It will teach them a skill other then what they normally learn in prison (how to smuggle drugs or get away with a crime) and POSSIBLY give them a chance to live in society. This would only be for the prisoners who can be released back to society. The other, rapist/child molesters/murders need a prison for life and HARD CORE punishment to deter others from commiting the same crimes. The families, as you said, should have to foot the bill for these criminals… if you want them to eat… you pay for it. Harsh? Look how “harsh” they were to their victims! NO pitty on these scum.

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July 29, 2008

Amyv

I do not agree that society is responsible for the way these girls acted. I read back over comments left on other blogs since this incident occured. First it was the parents fault (agree with that to some degree especially this mother), then it was myspace and youtube, then it was the sheriff and now it is society. This I think is a huge problem with teenagers. They are not taught their will be consequences for their actions. The blame is always shifted to someone else. All you have to do is listen to their comments and it is clear they believe it was the victims fault. Being a good decent human being is reward in itself. IF you were there when she was being beaten, and you helped you would be recognized as a person who stood up to help another human being. No monetary value should be placed on not behaving like an animal. That is what makes this case so terrible. Six people all had the same mind set when it came to behaving like animals. I don’t care if one of them did get off because she didn’t hit her. To me that was a reward. She stood their and did NOTHING to help. What kind of message does that send to teenagers. I can assure you if that happened in my presence I would have found someway to help this victim. Go to the bathroom and dial 911 if you are scared of the other girls. It would have been that simple. If any one of these girls would have lifted a finger to defend the victim, the others might not have been so tough. Children should be rewarded for good behavior such as an ice cream cone or the little gold stars they receive when they do well in school. To reward for not being a bully is another story. Their is no excuse for this type of behavior and I am sick of hearing the defenses. We reward in our justice system by letting these perps off of house arrest. In this case I believe these girls need medication not meditation. I also agree with prisons being over crowded with drug users. I do not condon the use of drugs but the damage they are doing is to themselves. This does not apply to drug dealers because they do harm others. Which is worse getting caught with a small amount of marijuana or beating some girl half to death. I hope these teenagers get a harsh punishment. They sorely deserve it. They will never learn if they get off with a slap on the wrist. I am not sure that some of them are beyond help anyway. Oh and dear God do not recommend martial arts for these girls. They are capable of doing enough damage without that knowledge. I understand your logic with normal human beings, that this would provide discipline. Not the right answer for these animals. They do not know right from wrong to such a severe level, that if the courts don’t handle them, maybe then society should step in. I have a teenage daughter, and I am sure other parents would agree with me, these girls would never be allowed to associated with her. I would put an instant stop to that. Mother Teresa was an example to behold. Devoted her life to others with no regard for the monetary reward. Her reward will be to go down in history as one of the most selfless human beings to ever walk the face of the earth.

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July 29, 2008

gompertz

Amyv: I do share your outrage. You stated the case for harsh punishment
very well. I introduced the eastern perspective not to mitigate the seriousness of the crime, but to offer remedies that have received little if any mention in these blogs or in tv discussions. Punishment, then what? Medication, not meditation? Do not confuse the seriousness of eastern practices with watered-down feel-good New Age nonsense. And I’ll say this about martial arts. It’s about learning compassion as well as self-defense and makes you far less likely to feel you have something to prove by physically assaulting someone. Many say these girls are just evil, period. Others say they are products of poor social conditioning and therefore not responsible at all. This goes to my point about the failure of western philosophy to provide useful answers to moral questions. Eastern philosophy does. You cannot judge Buddhism or Taoism by superficial consumerism-driven distortions any more than you can judge Christianity by the lies of the televangelists. I am a Buddhist, an angry Buddhist. Yes, that is not a contradiction in terms. I too believe that murderers and rapists should be harshly punished. Meanwhile John Couey is enjoying all the comforts of home, maybe they will put him peacefully to sleep some day. How has this madness come about? Again, it is the breakdown of traditional values, leaving us with the either/or of an anti- scientific religious fundamentalism or the liberal elitism that denies morality and values nothing but the excitement of sex and violence. Neither choice is acceptable. Eastern philosophy, so compatible with modern science, provides solutions. I do not insist. But I invite anyone who is concerned with the sad state of society to explore this possibility.

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July 29, 2008

Greg

“It could be asked whether moral judgment is more like language skill, ie universal rather than unequally distributed like mathematical ability.”

I think its clear that morality comes from reason, and the ability to reason is the basis behind math.

A lot of people, especially young people and women (not trying to be sexist), believe that morality comes from emotion. My hypothesis is that morality is reason, and people who make stupid decisions just lack the ability to reason out the cause and effects and weigh the consequences of every action.

The people who feel empathy, remorse, or compassion, have instincts which help them with moral reasoning, but sometimes these instincts can be wrong, such as in the case of the mother who has the evil rotten child who lets that child get away with murder.

Some of you have my stances confused. I’m not saying we should punish criminals more. I think prison is punishment enough and I think we have too many non-violent offenders in prison.

What I’m saying is, instead of letting society put us all in prison using the argument of security vs liberty, we should simply reward all the good behavior and punish all the bad behavior, starting with increasing the taxes on people who are violent, creating databases and putting profiles of people who beat their wives, keeping records of children who bullied people while growing up. Information is where you start.

I advocate a scientific approach to detect bullies, track bullies, and legally handle them as both a mentor, a benefactor when they have good behavior you reward, and as a punisher, the police officer or prison guard.

Research has shown that when training animals, reward works better than punishment. If you punish and you don’t reward, an animal can go mad and become aggressive. The fact that we build so many prisons and offer so few rewards is why aggression is increasing.

If you were to train an animal only with punishment, many people will tell you that the animal will someday turn on you. The animal eventually will bite the hand that feeds it because it associates that hand with the hand that hits it/punishes it.

Instead, reward goodness and correct decisions. When you have children, constantly test their decision making skills and give them allowance and gifts when they do the right thing. If you have a kid who bullies other kids, introduce your child to Karma, no gifts this xmas, no birthday party, no allowance, until and unless your kid is willing to spend some time helping smaller kids.

This could mean something like teaching the smaller kid how to fight. This could mean protecting the smaller kid. We don’t need more laws we just need better parenting.

Part of the reason why this happened is that we stopped spanking our kids, punishment was taken away completely from childhood development. On the flip side we didn’t add any new reward mechanisms either, so no only do kids not respect adults because they have nothing to fear from us, but they also don’t have anything to gain by listening to our instructions either.

We all basically expect to raise little angels who will do exactly what we say merely because we are their parents and we say so. This was not the case when we were kids and it’s not the case now.

When I was a kid and I did something really bad, I was spanked. Yes I did some borderline psychopath behavior as a kid, but when I crossed a line I was spanked, and while I did not really have the moral reasoning capability to understand why what I was doing was wrong, I could feel the pain of my actions, my parents made sure of it.

Now that spanking is considered child abuse, parents should learn from science, pavlov conditioning is already used to train animals, it’s also used to train the military. A parent should establish total dominance, and I don’t mean physical, I mean psychological.

This is going to sound blunt, but parents are going to have to start spying on their children, no more unearned privacy. If you suspect your child is a bully, if you suspect that your child is with the wrong crowd, and you know how to tap your own phone, or can get a copy of the chatlogs, do it. Privacy should be earned.

Don’t buy your children a cellphone. Notice all of these bad kids have cellphones which only increase their power and ability to do bad things. Test your kid to make sure they are responsible before giving them their first cellphone.

Gather information about their friends, learn what families they come from, if possible conduct a backround check on the parents. If you look at the situation here, all of these kids come from broken families, and if your kid is friends with them you need to know this so you can understand the behavior surrounding your kid.

Philosophy is only a component, science and psychology are components, consistency is the main component. Be consistent with your rewards to associate them with the desired behavior, no matter what.

The bible doesn’t work anymore because it’s neither consistent or reasonable. Nobody can be expected to live like Christ without also dying as Christ died, and most reasonable people aren’t willing to die for the sins of Mercades. If we look at Victoria, we can see she’s been trained by the bible due to the fact that she appears to forgive in the video.

I think training should be based entirely on reason. Your behavior should be determined entirely by the consequences. This means that while it’s wrong to kill innocent life, it’s not wrong to kill in self defense, or in defense of innocent life. The bible does not make any distinction, most reasonable people do make the distinction.

There is a lot more to my ideas than this but these are the basics, research pavlov conditioning, research game theory, and learn about consequentialism.

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July 29, 2008

Greg

Navigator, prisoners should work for the victims, and all the money they earn should go director to the victims and the victims families.

Prisoners should be allowed work for the victims from within the prison as long as 90% of the profits go to the victims. And only the good prisoners should be allowed to repay the families.

Amyv, society is to blame. Society is what we use to shape the behavior of citizens. Capitalism continues to reward bad behavior, while the government continues to punish the good behavior by taxing good behavior, and creating laws like gun control to further disarm good people.

Criminals cheat on their taxes, and even th criminals who don’t cheat, when a drug dealer gets arrested we don’t raise their taxes to make them pay their debt to society, we instead make all the good people pay for the drug dealer, forcing good people to clean up their mess.

Society is at fault for rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior. Nobody gets rewarded for being a good role model, or for going decades without a criminal record, but you get punished for even the smallest offenses.

This leads good and bad alike to despise society and collectively hate the government, the police, the law, etc. Because the law is not reasonable, the law is emotional, it picks and chooses based on how powerful people feel at any given moment. This leads young people to believe there is no right and wrong, there is no moral difference between getting rich from a life of crime and getting rich honestly, because society treats all the rich people well and rewards the rich merely for being rich, and treats all the poor people bad, punishing the poor for being poor, regardless of who is good or who is bad.

This leads a poor youth to ruthlessly try to get rich so they can get the good treatment. They sell drugs, they hurt people along the way, just to keep themselves from being treated like shit by society. Perhaps if society offered another option, a clause, which says “Be a good person and we will help you get rich”, perhaps the youth would choose to stay in school and have the honest living.

But if you tell the youth indirectly via the laws and the consequences “Do whatever you want to get rich, just don’t get caught”, then thats what people will do. People don’t care about right and wrong because the law isn’t about right and wrong, the law is about power games.

You can use the war on drugs as an example of a set of laws created merely for power games. Tabacco companies are allowed to get rich selling the most deadly and addictive drug, so young kids think it’s okay, society doesn’t really care how we get rich.

So they go and they sell drugs, they get arrested and punished for doing the same thing that other families are doing legally. It’s these double standards that ruin the consistency of the law, it gives the indirect message to youth that there really aren’t any laws, just the weak and the strong, and if you are strong/rich/smart, you can be above the law.

These kids who bully, they think they are too smart to ever get caught. They don’t feel like it’s wrong to bully because our entire society is built up around rewarding bullies. If you are tabacco company, you are just as much of a drug dealer as the cocaine cartels.

Maybe if society for once stopped rewarding the bullies, our children would stop idolizing and trying to be bullies. Our society makes bullies rich and then forces regular people to work for them.

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July 29, 2008

Greg

Amyv “Being a good decent human being is reward in itself. ”

It’s this sort of thinking that causes people not to be good human beings. Just because you have some sort of emotional reward from being good, don’t assume that I do or these kids do.

I need an incentive to be good, it could be cash, it could be drugs, but don’t assume that any behavior is a reward in itself, this is what I meant by moral elitism.

People who say stuff like “I help people because it makes me feel good.”, assume that this is why everyone helps people. The truth is, the majority of people help others merely because its in their best interest to do so and feel nothing at all towards the victim.

If you want more people to help, you have to increase the incentive, it’s just like how capitalism works, if you want more people to work in a certain profession you pay them more money. Expecting people to volunteer is why there aren’t many people who help.

If you want to help people for free, go ahead, I’d rather get rich.

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July 29, 2008

Greg

Amyv “She stood their and did NOTHING to help.”

She did nothing to help because she expected to be punished by helping. Maybe they’d have kicked her ass next. It’s not like we would have rewarded her for saving the girl and risking her life.

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July 29, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I did not mean to dismiss Tai Chai and other forms of discipline and self control. I myself believe that Yoga and Pilates are the best stress relievers around. When I said medication, I mean for some psychological disorder. I do believe some of these girls have some real psych. issues. However, I do believe these girls are beyond that point. We believe in peace obviously they don’t. Greg – I do not know where to start with you. I agree that our country is for the rich getting richer. Tobacco companies paid congress pockets so nothing is done. selling drugs is a get rich quick idea for some people. Until they get caught and put in prison. You condemn capitalism but reinforce it with your ideas for rewarding. I am a little confused with that. The attitude, what do I benefit from this, is exactly what is wrong with society. If you require monetary or drug rewards for acting like a decent human being you will never be one. Please clarify what you believe. In one blog you seem against capitalism and in the next you sound like you condon it? Their is no doubt our country has become all about greed. Especially from the top. If you do well in school, get a college education and keep your nose clean the reward is that you will have an easier life style. Their are so many issues you bring up that could be debated for hours. However, these girls are responsible for their own actions. I don’t think that they even would know what the word capitalism meant. So this as a defense for me does not fly. As for Cara, the one who stood by and did nothing, she stated herself that she was not scared of these girls hitting her. She just didn’t see the big deal. Her reward for this, get out of charges free. If you were their and did nothing to help this defenseless girl you are a coward. Once again, while they are in their frenzy of beating this girl try to slip away through the bathroom window. Run like hell and call for help. Her reward would have been that she would have been seen as a hero by the media. Should she get money for that, hell no. Now her reward will forever be that she and the other girls were a pack of cowards who couldn’t handle their problems one on one. Anyone that would just walk by someone being victimized and not help is also a coward. Why is it some pepole feel entitled to be given things for any actions they take? Bottom line these girls need to go to jail and work to pay the victim. Not society.

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July 29, 2008

gompertz

“I think it is clear that morality comes from reasoning and the ability to reason is the basis behind math.” It does not follow that morality is like math in being a special endowment possessed by only a few. More likely that morality, like language, is a universal human characteristic.
It seems, though, that I will never convince you of that and you will not convince me. More to the point, it is not just “young people and women” but neuroscientists (some of whom are in fact women) who challenge the facile emotion vs reason distinction. For instance, Antonio Damasio: “Descartes’ Error”. One could of course question his interpretation of the evidence, but not the evidence itself. That is what makes science different from philosophy. 25 centuries of metaphysical speculation led only to Auschwitz and the gulags. I am suspicious of any scheme of social control run by technocrats. However, if you restrict the application of such a system to the young, as you say, for instance, to identification of bullying behavior, I think that is a good thing. I attribute much of the “dumbing of America” which I have witnessed in my long life, to the fact that too many children are terrorized by bullies in the schools while the authorities look the other way. I wonder how we get the people in power to take the necessary actions? Just one more thing about emotion and reason. When I watched the video of the beating, I was so outraged I wanted to go down to Florida and do horrible things to these people. That outrage came from emotion. I feel it is different from moral outrage, which comes next. And then comes compassion. Of course for the victim, first of all, but also the inner calm to see the fears and insecurities of the attackers, whose lives are devoid of prospects for the future. They fill their lives with superficial pursuits, with sex and violence, which is all that is offered by a society ruled by greed. Freud and Buddha both saw that these forms of gratification would ultimately yield diminishing returns of pleasure, and lead to misery. These observations, for whatever they are worth, are derived, at least for me, from the meditation experience, and are not reducible to emotion. Of course I may be mistaken.

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July 29, 2008

gompertz

amyv:Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am quite new to the computer, and sometimes when I read over my comments I am appalled how they sound. Of course these girls would not benefit from a short period of stress reduction exercises a day. Deeper commitment and professional intervention would be needed. Rather than go on and on let me just indicate one book (perhaps you know it) by Mark Epstein, M.D. called Thoughts Without a Thinker, Psychotherapy from a Buddhist perspective. He gives a much better account than I could of the kind of intervention, both psychotherapeutic and meditative, that could benefit such deeply troubled people. I am from the generation of these girls’ grandparents, and I can truly attest that the moral decay was well underway by the time their parents were born. So in a way you can’t put all the responsibility on them or their parents, though the choice to turn to spiritual discipline is an individual one. I wonder. In Brittany Mayes’ Photobucket are pictures of Jesus (revered by all true Buddhists). Could that be why she alone was able to show remorse?

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July 30, 2008

Amyv

gompertz – Don’t worry about being new to the computer. It will get easier as you go along. I am still learning new things everyday. I to have appalled myself at how much hatred I can feel towards these individuals when I see the tape. I to have wanted to go down their and slap the tar out of everyone of them to say the least. I have a 16 year old daughter so I am not in the grandparent category. I am dealing with teenage parenting issues. I am not familiar with the writing you mentioned but intend to look it up. I was brought up as a devote Catholic. Although, I have strayed from organized religion, I have a deep faith. At first when I saw all of the girls pictures something about Brittany Mayes struck me as different. She had an innocent look about her. She was crying at her pretrial hearing. However, after finding out she is the one making the strange “oh yea baby” sounds over and over again each time the victimis hit I totally changed my mind. I found that so disturbing. Excuse me for saying this but it had a tone of some kind of sexual excitement to it. Wow. That was hard to say. But she was deriving some kind of sick, sick pleasure from that girls pain. So I am skeptical that pictures of Jesus were not put up to make her look better. Also, if you notice a lot of these girls wear crosses to the pretrial hearings. They wanted off of house arrest to attend church. I find this very difficult to believe. I think it is an attempt to shed them in a different light because of the impending trial.I don’t think you were seeing remorse from her but fear of what is to come. From what I have heard she is quite the bully. I have to hand it to the victims mother. She has stayed calm and collected through this whole ordeal. Never bad mouthing anyone. I would not be that way of this was my daughter. First of all the minute I found out about it, those girls wouldn’t have had time to be arrested. I would have gotten to them first. That sounds really harsh but it is the way I feel. I would protect my daughter against anything. That is what a mother does. My anger would have well taken over before any kind of reason set in. I don’t pretend to know what it would take to rehabilitate these girls. Or if it is even possible. Something is missing in all of them that should be normal feelings for any human being. I am sure I will hear back about that comment from someone. lol. Greg – I would have helped that girl at that age even if it did mean I would get my ass kicked. I would rather go to bed beaten then knowing I was a coward. Good night all.

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July 30, 2008

Greg

Amyv I never condemned capitalism when it works for good people and for good purposes. I condemn capitalism when it rewards bad people and is used for evil purposes.

I’m a capitalist, I don’t think we could get anything done without rewarding people, however I also don’t think we should be rewarding all the wrong people and then wondering why we have so much bad behavior.

All I’m saying is we should start giving our rewards to the people who deserve it and making the people rich who deserve to be rich instead of making bullies, assholes, and all around horrible people into millionaires and billionaires and then we wonder why our society is corrupt and a mess.

“the attitude, what do I benefit from this, is exactly what is wrong with society. If you require monetary or drug rewards for acting like a decent human being you will never be one.”

This is exactly what I mean, this is moral elitism. A good human being is a human being who adopts good behavior. Anyone can be trained into adopting good behavior regardless of whether it’s natural for them or not. But you are acting like a moral elitist when you say that not only do you expect people to adopt good behavior, but you expect them to like it.

I think this is why you have the current society, you have to stop having expectations about how people are supposed to think and feel, and just work with the people you have to create the behavior you want. Stop trying to change people, and start learning to modify behavior.

Trying to change people is like trying to turn a dog into a cat, you can’t do it. But you can train both a dog and cat to jump through the same hoop, and that’s what I’m talking about.

“Their is no doubt our country has become all about greed. ”

Greed is just an instinct, like compassion, remorse and empathy. Learn to work with peoples instincts instead of expecting them to have yours. Someone who does not have compassion or remorse might have greed, learn to reward their greed, because thats what makes them feel good, and stop trying to tell them they are a bad human for being different.

“Her reward would have been that she would have been seen as a hero by the media. Should she get money for that, hell no.”

You are part of the problem. It’s your volunteerism and moral elitism that has lead to the current crisis. You refuse to accept that not everybody is motivated by the same instincts you are motivated by. Some of us are only motivated by our own greed, by money, we might not feel compassion or remorse for victims but we’d save victims if theres something in it for us.

What you are doing is saying there should never be anything in it for us, and guess what, you are outnumbered, you are actually the minority, and this is why the world is fucked up. You believe you are the majority when in reality most people are greedy and don’t give a damn about the victims like Victoria, Victoria is not the first victim and wont be the last, and it’s not ever going to change until you give up your moral elitism and accept the fact that not everyone can be motivated by the same mechanisms. Reason with me please, we are together in this. Use capitalism as a tool for change instead of fearing it.

Gom,
“It seems, though, that I will never convince you of that and you will not convince me.”

If it were universal, we wouldn’t have any victims. Because we have so many victims, from slavery, to the victims created every day by the wars, to the victims created by bullying, it seems fairly obvious to me that humanity as a species is morally insane.

If we don’t have enough reasoning ability to save the earth from our destructiveness, if we are going to pollute and wipe out species, if we are just going to sit while billions die in third world countries, all the evidence points to the fact that only a select few enlightened people have morality and the majority only have greed.

Want to prove me wrong? Show me some evidence of when humanity ever on a mass scale did anything out of some enlightened self interest without money or economics involved.

Capitalism was invented specifically for the purpose of training humanity to adopt certain behaviors, but capitalism is out of control because the most reasonable morally enlightened people are afraid of it. It’s just a tool, it’s what you use to guide people like Mercades who aren’t going to be guided by other means.

And emotion is an instinct, reason is not an instinct it’s something you can measure. I cannot objectively measure how you feel, but we can objectively measure that if we don’t do something fast, climate change and pollution will destroy our planet. It has nothing to do with emotion, the math will tell you that infinite population growth will increase violence and pollution infinitely.

Sure we can change, but when you say you believe every human on earth is the same, even when neuroscientists prove that different brains work differently and have different capabilities, you come across as being misinformed and you appear to be speaking from emotion. I’ll give you some links so the research to make this a bit easier for people to understand my arguments:Brainscan Experiment 1
Brainscan Experiment 2

It’s not a guess, it’s a fact, that some people have brains which limit their reasoning capability. I’m not saying they are a victim, but it’s just a fact, they simply aren’t ever going to be capable of moral reasoning at the advanced level because their brainscans show they cant.

Now that it is established that not all brains have equal reasoning capability, we can see that moral reasoning is an innate talent just like math. It’s not like language because if it were like language, the brain scan results would be the same for everybody, as they are with language.

What I advocate is using science, in specific, neuroscience to figure out exactly what influences and motivates different kinds of brains. Some of the experiments have found that some brains respond more to winning money than to seeing a person be tortured to death, are we supposed to ignore what the neuroscience is telling us when we make our decisions? I think we should follow the science.

The main reason I seperate emotion from moral reasoning is because sometimes what feels right is morally wrong. It might feel good to kill people you don’t like, but the consequences of doing that are what make it wrong. It might feel good to rape people, but the consequences make it wrong.

I place morality exclusively in the real of reason because reasoning is objective measurement of the outcome of ones actions, it’s something which can be reduced to formulas, emotions on the other hand I cannot even know if they are anything more than chemicals in your brain.

I don’t know if emotions are real, but I understand cause and effect, that is as objective and natural as gravity. You cannot teach a person right and wrong by talking about feelings, you have to teach moral reasoning, decision theory, the weighting and measuring of consequences is the only true morality, and sometimes you will have to do stuff you wont feel good about, which will hurt people, because it leads to the best consequences.

Decision Theory

&lta href &lta href=”http://=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism” target=”_blank”&gt=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism

No action is always right or always wrong, right and wrong depends entirely on the situation you are in. Because there are no moral absolutes, you cannot base morality on feelings and expect it to be correct 100% of the time.

What if you are on a plane and a terrorist decides to try to hiijack it? If you kill the terrorist you save many innocent lives, even though the act of killing this terrorist will make you feel horrible, if you listen to your emotions you’ll freeze and you wont be able to act because you’ll be too busy focusing on how you feel to be a hero. If you kill the terrorist right then and there, you’d sacrifice that one life to save your life and many others, it you’d obviously feel bad because of your compassion and remorse, but it does not change the fact that killing is not wrong in every situation no matter how you feel about it.

What if it’s a school shooting, you have a gun and Cho or some shooter shows up and starts shooting everyone, you have a clear shot at his head, you are a trained sniper just coming back from Iraq, do you take the shot and save lives or do you focus on how you feel?

I’m not saying you shouldn’t feel compassion or remorse, I’m saying there is a time for feeling and a time for acting, and decision making cannot be based on feeling because it can get in the way of acting. This is what I mean when I say morality is the purest form of reasoning, because what is right often makes the hero feel bad afterwards. Just think of the police officer who kills the criminal, or the trained swat sniper who ends the hostage crisis, they probably don’t feel good about it but they knew it was right.

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July 30, 2008

Greg

I apologize if my post is poorly written, it’s late at night and I need sleep, hopefully my argument is more clear now. I’m advocating for a neuro-economic form of change to alter the behavior of the human species towards a more rational pattern.

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July 30, 2008

Greg

Amyv dont be insulted by anything I said, just understand that moral elitism does not help you accomplish your goals. It only alienates people when you say they aren’t capable of being good because they don’t have the same brain capabilities as you do.

Again, the article BrainScan2

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July 30, 2008

gompertz

Greg: Thank you for the clarifications and references. Please understand that I do not raise issues to be contentious but to learn more. Yes, the brains of different individuals show differences which are correlated with different capacities for empathy. I would be curious to know what brain scans would reveal in the case of a) a mathematician who can calculate 8-place logarithmic tables in his head, and b) a mathematician with poor calculating abilities. There are thousands of branches of mathematics and no mathematician is master of more than a few. Brain scans might reveal that the brains of mathematicians would differ among themselves, but by how much? Maybe, as Wittgenstein might say, we have a family of brain scans with resemblances and differences. Now in the case of moral capacity there would also be resemblances and differences, but how great are the differences? In the case of damage to the frontal lobe, of course there is a loss of affect. But can we say for sure that social conditioning doesn’t contribute in may cases where we see brain scan differences? The level of depravity, driven by the entertainment industry’s greed, has never been more alarming. Probably there are entertainment executives who can’t wait to offer movie deals and maybe a reality tv show to these girls, because there is an audience for the blend of sex and violence they represent. This sounds sick, but consider not only the Dr. Phil fiasco but the “comedian” Bill Maher telling his national tv audience how much he really, really enjoyed that video, and that the victim had it coming.Given such a corrupt social environment, and sick “entertainment” at anyone’s fingertips, is it any wonder that young people are tempted to act accordingly? Mightnot the results of laboratory testing sometimes reflect socially created depravity rather than an absolute correlation between brain scan results and ability for moral judgment? Also mathematical reasoning is certainly objective, but what do we apply it to? In the case of physics, we measure clear and unambiguous things like space and times. I wonder what parameters we would use to set up a system of rewards and punishments. In educating the young, it is easier. Everyone agrees bullying is wrong (with the possible exception of some ACLU members}. What about a question like this: are the American soldiers who invaded Iraq heroes or criminals? What would count as a rational solution to such cases, quite common, that people want to decide in terms of political philosophies. Also look at economics. Economists have access to the same mathematical tools, yet they split into opposing schools, keynesians, monetarists, etc with no clear criterion for deciding who is right in purely practical terms. Well I think I’ve said enough for now.

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July 30, 2008

gompertz

Amyv: Yes, I’m afraid you are probably right about Brittany M. Hope the jury is not a s easily fooled as I am. As for any change for the better in their outlook, only time will tell. As for myself I turned to Buddhism after 16 years of Catholic school provided no relief from the tortures of a severely dysfunctional childhood. I felt I had to commit myself wholeheartedly, even fanatically, to make the transition to a more sane life. Without that commitment spurred by suffering I could not have done it. Maybe that is what is needed. Certainly, for these people, hard time is called for. As lost as they are, they have no incentive to change other than that provided by the prison experience. This is not incompatible with compassion, but justice for the victim would demand it. As for suffering leading people to Buddhist meditation, maybe it will happen for Victoria Lindsay(I respect her too much to use a more familiar term of address). Thank God she has that modern Joan of Arc, Gloria Allred fighting for her. I am quite ignorant in legal matters, and I know nothing about Florida laws concerning damages in civil litigation.Does anyone know?

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July 30, 2008

Greg

Gom I do think there is a social component.
An individual could be a moral genius but if you put them in a situation where they are surrounded by simpletons their genius probably wont be expressed.

Bill Maher’s comment was ignorant, but it’s not like he’s known for being a good decision maker or a role model, he’s Bill Maher.

In general, it appears that the differences in the brain are what help create the differences in behavior. This is why I suggest a neuro-economic approach to behavior modification.

If you understand how the persons brain works then you’ll know precisely what kind of incentives to offer them, rather than the current one size fits all approach we apply which obviously is not working.

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July 30, 2008

Amyv

Greg -I do agree with not one size fits all. Each child is different. I never spanked my daughter not once. When she was little a certain look I gave her followed by telling her that her behavior was not appropriate was enough. I do believe I got lucky. Now that she is a teenager restriction is her worst punishment. It drives her crazy not to be able to socialize. Some children this does not work with. Others require different forms of punishment. I do agree with spanking but, only to a minimum. I was raised with 5 siblings. I can count on one hand the times any of us were spanked. I am not saying we were angels but we were taught to respect our elders and authority figures i.e. teachers, police, etc. I was no angel as a teenager. I did all of the typical teenage stuff. My mom, sorry have to laugh now, used to ride around in her house coat and curlers to find me. Embarassment was what worked the best for me. So no, not everyone is going to respond to the same type of punishment. Therefore, rewards are not the one size fits all approach for individuals acting moraly. Yes our society is full of greed. I do not pretend to know what the answer to the decline in morality for our society is. God forbid you are in the situation that their is a terrorist on board a flight or a gunman in your school or office. Yes, you need to defend yourself at all cost. That person is out to kill you and others. So it is kill or be killed. What do you think the incentive was for the people on board the last terrorist flight that crashed in the field? They told their family members they were going to bring the terrorist down to save lives on the ground. No reward for that. They knew their was a huge possibility they were going to die. However, they choice to save others. Maybe genetics are involved to some extent. I am just not sure. One thing my mother taught me I think was more valuable than any other. I was taught that I was responsible for my own actions. She never went for the excuses other parents used. Like hanging around the wrong crowd or so and so was a bad influence. When I got in trouble the blame was all on me. I had to take responsibility for my own actions. No one can force you to do something you know is wrong. I apply this to my parenting with my daughter. You get in trouble, don’t blame it on anyone else. That is a decision you make all on you own. I do and will always believe that teenagers will use this for an excuse. They are taught well by adults. Its societys fault, its the parents fault and in this case its the sheriffs fault. Where does the blame game end. These girls did what they did. They are to blame. They hopefully will be punished according to their crimes. They should work in prison. The money they make should go to the victim. We are not the victims. She and her family are. I have heard conflicting statements on the civil court rights when it comes to minors. None of these girls have money. I don’t think their families do either. Someone please help us out here with the answer? Sorry if I am rambling. I am fighting a cold. Greg – I wish I had a response to all of your statements. I don’t know that their is one answer for why some people have more compassion and empathy than others.

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July 30, 2008

Amyv

Gom – I am sorry to hear about your dysfuctional childhood. However, this brings up a interesting point. You choose to turn to healthy lifestyle changes to help with your situation. When others use it for an excuse for the rest of their lives for their bad behavior. I have a male friend who had a terrible childhood. Although he has a good job and appears well adjusted on the outside, nothing could be further from the truth. He uses his childhood as an excuse to treat women terribly. What makes people react so differently to the same situations.?

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July 30, 2008

gompertz

amyv, also do not know if these girls are beyond help or not. I don’t know how people would have evaluated a 15 year old Hitler, or a 15 year old Mother Teresa, whether we could have predicted their future at that age. Don’t feel uneasy about your anger toward these girls. I, the Angry Buddhist, fantasized about going down there are performing some mutilations! It’s a normal reaction to an atrocity that we witness with our own eyes. My rage was so great that it led me to review a few verses from the Dhammapada: “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,” in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease…For never does hatred cease by hatred here below. Hatred ceases by love that is an eternal law. The world does not know that we must all come to an end here but those who know, their quarrels cease at once. (end of quote)…It is onlythe last sentence that would be strange for a Christian. It reflects the Buddhist denial of a permanent self, or a metaphysical soul. We are manifestations of voidness, and that is the basis of Buddhist compassion. No future rewards. Of course I oversimplify. But here is how it works in a specific example. Both Christians and Buddhists agree that sexual desire is an impediment to spiritual practice. But how differently they deal with the problem! In Catholic school they told me that if I looked at a girl with desire I commit a mortal sin, for which the penalty is eternal hellfire. Since I don’t want to burn in hell, I repress the desire. And the repressed desire eventually returns in inflated form. Now the woman is no longer just an object of a biological drive, but a Sex Goddess, a supernatural and irresistible temptress. Here is how Buddhism might handle the problem. A monk in old India who is distracted by the sight of beautiful girls is told to go to the place where the dead were dumped in an open field, where they underwent decay. Young girls died also, and monks were instructed to observe the changes their bodies underwent. No longer were these bodies the occasion of desire, but perhaps disgust and revulsion as nature took its course. And so, instead of an exaggerated desire produced by fear and repression, we have the possibility of compassion, as the monk sees that even pretty girls are subject to sickness, death and decay. I have seen that meditation on suffering and death do not make us morbid, but more open to the unity of us all, even (and this is surely hard to accept) Hitler and Mother Teresa, for the ultimate truth is just the Great Emptiness which is our home. Yes, I see I got carried away a little, so let me keep it short. In the last 50 years I have seen a great increase in antisocial behavior. Does this mean that there is a greater percentage of sociopaths, or are people just reflecting the general downward trend in values? I think people are more inhumane because our values are inhumane. Greg’s ideas are good,but how to implement them in such an inhospitable environment? I believe that the spread of Buddhism is one answer. Its austere but honest teaching, its refusal to pander to our sense of self-importance make us realize our unity. Personally i feel it is time for me to be more open about my beliefs, more involved. Looking at things like the Florida case and others, I see the downward spiral leading society to total disaster. These people, vicious and evil they may be, need to be exposed to Buddhism. Why? They are likely to get court-ordered counselling, anger management courses, etc. I am convinced these programs not only do not work, but make people worse. These courses teach people how to be more outwardly nice, more deceptive, how to not get caught. Give these girls tradition courses, and they really will be incorrigible monsters. Some will say they already are. Maybe they are. But they are still young. Maybe some can be saved. Sorry to be so long-winded.I do get carried away sometimes.

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July 31, 2008

gompertz

Greg: Your neuro-economic approach makes sense to me. I have even begun (belatedly) to study game theory. Very good, but difficult. It is precisely because your ideas are important and need to be implemented that I keep asking: how do we do it? How do we wrest power from the elites who control society in their own interest? Marx offered an answer, based on certain specific notions of how the socioeconomic system would lead to the downfall of the “ruling class”. These predictions failed. We are left with a power structure that controls us in many ways, not lest of which is providing entertainment that keeps the masses hypnotized with sports and pornography. ow we have interactive electronic media, computers, videocams, and so on. Did anyone think people would only use video cameras to record pictures of picnics and clean wholesome fun? Technology keeps getting more powerful and more intrusive. And it is the bad people who tend to increase their power through various techniques of manipulating technology in their own interest while the rest of us passively look on. Although some of the opinions I express may be unwelcome to some, I do believe in severe punishment. Buddhists believe in various hells, just not that they are forever. So Hitler and John Couey may only have to suffer unspeakable burning torment for a few quintillion centuries, a pretty long time. Then maybe they get to start over. Now, I cannot prove to you that through meditation I gain access to a mental state called “compassion” because it cannot be objectively measured. All I can say is that, taking it on faith, anyone who does the same practice will have the same type of experience. But the practical effects of meditation can be measured if enough people participate, because we would see a marked decrease in violence and antisocial behavior. Your ideas would have to implemented from above, by convincing people in power to accept them. My idea of a sort of “Buddhist revolution”, while entirely compatible with the neuro-economic approach, must be seen from the perspective of convincing all the people sitting passively in front of their TV sets to get up and do something! Tai Chi, Qi gong, Taekwando, anything! All leading to the same goal of creating a more involved citizenry who will not passively consume the vile “entertainments” dumped on them by the greedy evil people who control things. Utopian? Of course. But why not worth a try?

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August 3, 2008

Greg

Gompertz there is no easy solution or quick answer. One solution would be to remake the psychiatry industry and to offer free and perhaps mandatory brain scans to all children as part of an evaluation of brain health.

Bullying and sociopathic violence is a mental illness. Currently the mental health community spends almost all of its resources trying to help the victims of bullying, such as Victoria, when the people who truly are sick are the bullies themselves.

One part of this is genetic, that is something we cannot immediately fix, however someday we may be able to screen for traits of mental illness. The main problem is lack of knowledge, we don’t do a good job tracking who the violent people are. We don’t do a good job tracking who the bullies are.

The elites don’t seem to care either way, they will be in power no matter what. If there are a lot of violent people in society the elites will simply start a war and fight them against each other, or put them in prison. Marx did not have it right because if Marx had it right then communism would have one.

I propose that we treat this as a disease and as a systematic dysfunction within the structure of society. This dysfunction will ultimately lead to the self destruction of every society the west creates. If you look at each society, going back to Rome, they have all fallen after becoming an Empire and then becoming so corrupt that the economy falls apart and society collapses.

Rome fell, the US is in the process of falling, it’s going to fail as a system because it’s not designed to last. Tribal society, asian society, and other structures last longer as you mention precisely because in these societies bad behavior is not often rewarded and corruption is minimized.

This is not to say that there was no corruption in Asia, or in Africa, or in Native America, of course there was corruption, but by design the tribal society of Native America was based on barter which minimized corruption. By design the African tribal societies redistributed their wealth and had mechanisms for solving clan disputes and for promoting clan loyalty.

Now we look at the USA, there is no mechanism to promote clan loyalty (the loyalty within a family), people who are destructive wont be exiled out of the community like they would be if part of an African tribe. In fact, in the USA destructive individuals have been rewarded for centuries. The individuals who owned and abused slave labor were allowed to keep their wealth, this is seen as a reward, and the corporations involved still exist to this day.

As a result many individuals and families feel like they got away with getting rich off other peoples work and they’ll continue to change the laws around if they must so that they can keep getting richer off other peoples work. If we look at the USA as a network or collection of families and not merely 50 states, we could solve some of these problems by creating our laws with this in mind.

We could individualize the tax system so that corrupt individuals pay higher taxes and violent individuals pay higher taxes. We could create laws to promote clan loyalty and personal responsibility. What this means is, the parents should be responsible for the children they create, not society. This would mean giving parents more control over their children, and taking the government out of it, the exact opposite of what we do now.

We should also see that peace comes from strong and secure families. To promote peace we should create a parenting industry to provide parents with whatever tools necessary to control their bad kids. You say parents can’t watch their kids 24/7? Create tools so parents can, because obviously the governments and corporations can watch us 24/7.

Community policing, each community could keep profiles on individuals such as mercades. This could be done right now by just creating a wikipedia style website where people can enter a name and upload and rate their experiences with a person. This could all be password protected and if done in a very secure fashion, you could create a community policing industry where the victims of bullying could report on who did what.

Information is the answer. Information such as this could help people make decisions, if the information is quality information. Second you need to change the structure of the reward mechanisms in society so that the right people are rewarded and not the wrong people.

Currently society punishes goodness, if we don’t promote goodness then goodness has no value in society because we don’t want to give it a value. How much is goodness worth in $?

If we decide that it’s supposed to be free, then goodness is clearly worthless to society. The same applies to corporations, how much is socially responsible behavior and our environment worth to us in $?

If we don’t put a value on it, capitalism wont give it any value, and as a result it will have no value in our society. So all I want is for us to move beyond the limits of capitalism and move onto neuro-economics. Capitalism was brilliant for it’s time, but it must be updated to capitalism 2.0 if we are going to survive as a species. We have to reward greed but we also have to reward goodness, if we reward one without the other, it wont work long term.

Reply
August 3, 2008

Greg

The way to create change is by creating the engines of change. This starts by determining a set of missions and then distributing the tasks and rewarding the people who complete the task.

Think of the concept like this, society operates through machines. Capitalism is the eco-system.

A corporation is a machine. Human behavior is controlled by these machines. A very simple machine can be constructed by using bounties, if you want certain behaviors, and you offer a reward the likely hood of someone accepting your offer increases as the size of the reward increases.

To give a more detailed examination of the concept, person A wants person B to protect/defend person C. Person A cannot simply ask person B to take such risk without offering something in return, so person A offers to pay person be to protect/defend person C.

Now let’s take another look, let’s say Person A does not have any money. Person A wants person B to protect/defend Person C, so person A offers to do a favor or series of favors for Person B if Person B defends Person C. This is barter/quid pro quo.

Now another look, Person A has no money or resources from which to influence the behavior of person B, however Person A has information which Person B wants to remain secret, Person A guarantee’s secrecy in exchange for Person B protecting Person C. This is blackmail.

In all three examples Person A influences the behavior of Person B, thus Person A has what is commonly known as “POWER”, and “POWER” is the fuel of all engines. All Corporations exist to concentrate power. If you are a good individual and you want to improve life of someone such as Victoria Lindsey, it requires some form of power.

Now, how could a reward mechanism work? Let’s say you don’t have any money, but you want Person B to defend Person C (Victoria is Person C), instead of offering a reward of cash to Person B, you could offer favor to Person B.
This would mean Person B would receive a social reward of favoritism, and these rewards could be far greater than what could be calculated.

Person B could save Person C’s life, it’s documented, Person A should have the resources and mechanisms in place to reward Person B. This is barter/quid pro quo, maybe Person B walks into a bar and gets free drinks from the bar, maybe the local businesses give Person B free services, a free haircut, price reductions, tax reductions, whatever we can think of.

Do you now see how the reward mechanism can work? The punishment mechanism could be social as well and be just as bad. Higher prices for services, no free support, no favor, long lines for everything. Do you see?

Reply
August 3, 2008

Greg

Amyv, What if you were Person A, Gomp is Person B, and Victoria is Person C.

Person B saves the life of Person C.

How would you Amyv, as Person A, reward Person B? Think about it, and get back to me. The reward does not have to be money, but it must be something measurable, it must be some form of reward.

Reply
August 3, 2008

Greg

If I were Person A, I’d add Person B to a sort of hero list and pass this list up the chain of my social network. Soon business owners would know, doctors would know, all sorts of people would know, and the people on this list would receive favorable treatment/VIP status from me and my business partners.

This would encourage people to help those like Victoria Lindsey, and depending on what I have to offer would tell me what rewards I could give, but the point I’m trying to make clear to you all is that part of being a good person is rewarding goodness when you see it in others, especially when you see it in young people in very difficult situations.

Reply
August 3, 2008

Amyv

Greg – The psychiatric support in our country is deplorable. People with mental illness are placed in nursing homes or prisons. Their is little offered to appropriately deal with the long term effects of mental health issues. I have worked in nursing homes for 10 years. The nurses and staff are not specially trained to deal with these type of individuals so they are warehoused in with the dementia patients. Many of us have long complained about this not being the proper environment to provide safety for others and help for the patients. Jail is just another warehouse for mental health issues. It is not like we all live in Beverly Hills and can go to a luxury treatment center for depression and get appropriate care. So the prospect of the government and the health care system providing brain scans to identify mental health issues is slim to none. The country knows our health care system is in crisis however, psychiatric issues are among the most poorly funded. If you do have a family member or a child who exhibits psych. behaviors good look finding a place for them to get proper treatment. As for “how much is goodnes worth $”? How can you put $ amount on it and how would these rewards be given out”? Do you think even if their was a promise of money if one of these girls would have helped the victim their behavior would have been different? I don’t believe it would. Their reward was the action itself. They enjoyed it.

Reply
August 3, 2008

Amyv

Greg -We must have been typing at the same time. My last blog was not in response to your last two. I absolutely agree and love your idea of how to reward actions with a hero list. And the other ideas you mentioned. I have been in the position to reward others for their actions. As a Rehab coordinator, I would get a lot of feed back from other employees and patients about the way my staff treated patients. I had the pleasure of working with some very compassinate individuals. The ones that did not last long under my management were the ones who showed no empathy for the patients. They may have had excellent skills but recovery for the patients was impeded by a lack of bonding. The ones that went above and beyond to do even the simpiliest things to make the patients recovery process a little easier were rewarded with respect and larger raises. So in this case their are monetary rewards. But these people did these things out of the kindness of their hearts and empathy for others. I was rewarded by recieving a plaque for the most outstanding teamwork. This was given to me by the owner of a very large company who owned many nursing homes. The pride I felt for all of us was overwhelming. So I do agree, rewarding feels good. However, it seem to be a little more difficult with the teenage generation. Anymore specific ideas in that direction?

Reply
August 3, 2008

gompertz

Greg, once again thank you for your input. Tomorrow I a going on a trip and will be away from the computer a while so I can only throw out a few general thoughts now. Maybe the best way to begin implementing the changes you advocate is to convince lawmakers, on a case by case basis. rather than looking for one sweeping transformation, something like Hayek in Road to Serfdom. Also, in the schools the young are exposed to fuzzy “postmodern” and “neomarxist” philosophies which often oppose a scientific and mathematical approach to social problems. So the question is, how to combat entrenched special interests in the education establishment? I am pressed for time so just some quick thoughts. To anyone who thought I strayed too far off topic in my last entry, I apologize. I guess I try to expand the discussion and say too much at once. The problem is things move so slowly. On other postings people seem to be going over the same ground over and over with little new input. Amyv did bring up two points that I hadn’t heard, how they only stopped beating her because the grandmother was coming home, and how they forced her, the victim, to apologize. Can we be outraged anymore? The worst of it is, it is nothing unique. There are millions of young people, girls and boys, who are just as bad, many already soing violent acts, others just waiting for the opportunity. Just do a google search of “girl gangs” or “sexual slavery” if you wantto be even more sickened and appalled. Now, it is still more than three weeks until the next pre-trial hearing and the lawyers want to drag this thing out until everyone gives up and loses interest. I wonder what the brain scans of defense lawyers would reveal. Are they just people doing thair jobs, or are they participants in the evil deed by letting the perpetrators escape punishment? The evil overflows. I only bring up Buddhism because the corruption is so great that it seems there must be some intervention from the “spiritual dimension” that could aid in a transformation. And I am not deluded about the difficulties. I know that it is in Southeast Asian countries where people are so poor they sell themselves and their children as sex slaves. And these are Buddhist countries! Sorry I can’t be more positive tonight. Anyway I am now signing off for about a week. Keep hope alive!

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August 4, 2008

Greg

Gomp, lawmakers are not leaders. Lawmakers don’t create change, individuals in society create the change and then bully the lawmakers into passing laws after the fact. So there will be no easy way out, passing a law or laws wont work anymore than before. Because the lawmakers only pay attention when the tide has already turned.

My advice is to try it on the small local scale, and once you can get it working in a school, a series of schools, a neighborhood, and can produce results, then you start a series of non-profits/NGO’s to interface with Corporations.

Finally when you have the NGO’s, the Corporations, the neighborhood associations, then you use your might to pressure the local lawmakers in your state’s senate to pass a law funding the programs, the NGO’s, to etc. Government is always the last group to change, and never on the forefront of anything.

Change starts with the individual, it works it’s way through the local networks and as the networks and movement builds and gains power eventually it reaches the large NGO’s and Corporations who can elect politicians and influence things.

Also you have to understand, a large number of politicians side with the criminals and are corrupt, unless you have some serious might and influence you wont get far. Just like you wont see a carbon tax for the same reason, and you wont see universal healthcare for the same reason, not because the USA wouldn’t be better if we solved some of these problems but because corrupt criminal minded or in some cases criminals, are literally through force blocking all attempts to implement necessary changes on the federal level.

So skip the feds, focus on your local government, you can surely gain control over that. Finally you have to make greed work for you, eventually you’ll have to apply corrupt tactics to get the job done, sadly thats still how politics work and you’ll need your own army of corrupt lobby groups, you’ll need your own set of criminals pushing for whatever laws you want to pass, and this means something has to be in it for them if they are going to pass anything.

The criminals and the corrupt don’t care about victims like Victoria, if they cared they’d have outlawed bullying 20-30 years ago instead of letting Columbine happen and the Virginia Tech shooting.

Reply
August 4, 2008

Greg

Amyv and about whether or not some of them could have been convinced to help Victoria, not all of the girls involved actually hit Victoria or were violent, the girls who were beating her up probably did enjoy it, the signs of a sadist.

However some of the other girls and people observing the situation just stood and watched, they probably felt indifference towards Victoria and did nothing to help because there was nothing for them to gain personally by helping Victoria. Perhaps they did not really like Victoria very much to begin with and did not care if she were beat up.

The way to get people to do things for people they don’t like, is to give them incentive. I think with the teenage generation it’s still possible. Many teens go to college and don’t want to ruin their lives, these sorts of teens could be recruited and given an offer to join the forces set up to end bullying, and protect others.

The reason it’s not happening currently is because parents have spoiled their teens, giving them cars and letting them have stuff without them doing anything to truly earn it. Then people send their kids to school to be bullied, believing that in school their kid can build character, when in reality all the kid learns is either how to fight bullies, how to become a bully, or how to become a victim.

And in school Gomp is right, teachers deliberately avoid teaching reasoning skills to keep our kids semi-retarded, scientific problem solving is not taught as part of the math requirements, instead we teach kids how to count money and crunch numbers. Critical thinking, logic, strategic thinking, and reasoning is not taught.

You don’t even have to teach them game theory, just introduce them to chess, explain cause and effect, through chess they learn the value of positioning, the strength of the moves being greater than the strength of the pieces, and they learn long term logical and critical thinking.

Roleplaying is another way to teach decision making, game theory, and moral reasoning. Finally, when you look at how politics are taught, it’s taught as if politics and social change are an art. Activism is taught, telling kids to go vote, or pray for change, or protest for change, or go to one of those Live8 concerts, etc. And a lot of the time the schools focus on problems across the world in Africa or the third world which can’t be fixed by these kids.

How about taking these kids to a real prison, showing them the the flaws in the current justice and mental health system in this country, and then asking them to apply science to come up with solutions which are non partisan and which don’t require the support of lawmakers? We don’t do this because we aren’t actually looking for solutions.

Our schools are afraid of new ideas and often punish the kids who do think outside the box or who ask too many or the wrong sorts of questions. The solutions are always scientific, you can’t turn water into wine, you cannot expect magic to save us, or expect Jesus to return to solve all our problems, or expect the government to solve all our problems, but thats often what we teach kids, we teach kids to tell their problems to others and that someone will rescue them. This doesn’t really work very well when that same kid is introduced to a bully who beats the sh*t out of them for no reason, they can pray to Jesus and that wont save them, they can write a letter to President Bush and that wont save them, they can protest, they do any of that, but ultimately the only thing that will save these kids is if they start fighting back.

I had to learn how to fight back, and when I did that the bullying ended. Bullies tend to like to attack the small kid who doesn’t fight back or who can’t fight back, preying on the defenseless, and these small kids always outnumber the bully, yet these small kids don’t do anything about it, then they become adults and they still don’t do anything about it, which means some people never learn to fight back or to solve their problems and that is the essence of the problem.

Every problem has a solution, and every solution can be fought through science. If you teach your kid to take the scientific rather than religious approach to problem solving, they’ll figure out how to deal with the bullies really quick. Natural law.

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August 4, 2008

Amyv

Greg – bullying has been around for along time. But, I think it has reached a whole new level with this generation. Jumping someone makes them think they are tough and it seems to be a game to them. Of course in this case it was brought to higher level of brutality because of the trapping the victim in the house. That combined with the fact that the victim was living their with her so called “friend”. Bullying at school is totaly out of control. Even the teachers are scared of these bullies. When you reach a point where students beat up teachers, things are definitely out of control. They need to have more security at schools and put in cameras. I know some people think this violates privacy but, something needs to be down to make our schools safer. As far as Columbine and the Virginia Tech. situations, those individuals had severe mental disorders. I agree children are handed everything today and feel entitled to it. They do not learn the value of the dollar or have to work for what they get. They are so overwhelmed with material items already that using that for reward would mean nothing to them. Also, to many repeat offenders are let out of jail to commit crime after crime. They are a menace to society and the punishments are just not their. Is doing the right thing able to be taught? Even with cause and effect, if you are lacking in basic traits such as empathy, can this be taught?

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August 5, 2008

mike

hi i have been following this since i first saw it on the news. i am not going to say i disagree with anyone however, i really don’t think that you can blame Society for this act nor can you blame the Media(youtube myspace news). The blame HAS to lye with the ones who did the crime. as far as punishment well i’d like to say beat them till they cant move, rip off there cloths and throw them in the middle of a NYC Trainstation. maybe then they will know how it feels to be helpless and humiliated. but most likely these little bastard children will only get a probation and community service. the only thing i can say i blame society for is the outcome of this trial. and seeing as i have such little hope for america, its people, and its future i can assure you that these children will get the smallest punishment they can. Victoria will be a broken little girl for the rest of her pathatic life because of these kids and they will never know what they have truly done

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August 5, 2008

Amyv

Mike – I agree the best punishment for people is to have done to them what they did to their victim. However, in this case their is no way to cause them the exact pain, physical and emotional distress. If they got beat up, they still would not know how if feels to be held against their will, humilitated, beat and betrayed by a so call friend. And on top of that everything is caught on tape. So, the best justice that can be served is they spend hard time in jail. As for your last statement, hopefully Victoria will have the strength to get through this. Counseling will help. This does not mean she will spend the rest of her life as a “broken little girl’ and have a pathetic life. I understand you do not mean to bad mouth the victim when you say this but, lets give her more credit than that.

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August 5, 2008

nita

Well I guess that victoria can turn this around and sue christina garcia for saying” she shouldve said what she said if she cant back up her words…oh yea I think tori should wait til christina gets all those millions she plans to get out of her daughters actions and take it ALL

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August 6, 2008

Amyv

Nita – couldn’t agree with you more. Although, I don’t think Garcia is going to be successful in this law suit. She doesn’t even raise this girl. The sheriff just stated the facts. If she wants to act like she is entitled to something for a child that she isn’t even raising then, she can be the one who gets sued for her daughters actions. They caused a much greater amount of pain and financial hardship for the victims family who has had to pay for the medical bills. I think you will see the victims family file some civil cases after the trial is over. How dare this mother think she is entitled to any money in this case. She needs to worry more about what a lousy mother she has been. And once again she is setting a great example for her daughter. She just wants her 15 minutes of fame. In the process she is making herself look like a loser and a fool. She is trash. You could tell that from her very first interview. It is a shame how she is exploiting her daughter. She needs to sit back and shut up. Mother of the year she will never be. Mother period she will never and has never been.

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August 8, 2008

Mrs Garda

Greg–I have to say I love reading your statements. I’m not even going to try to respond to all of it. Do you have a degree in sociology or psychology or are you a dabbler like m’self?

As I said, I’m a dabbler. But I thought positive reinforcement was when you praised something you wanted a subject to continue and negative reinforcement was when you rewarded them for stopping an action. It’s been a while since i picked up a psyche book.

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August 8, 2008

Amyv

Well we may have the answer to these questions. Guess what? One of these lovely little girls is back in jail. Surprise. Its Mercades Nichols. Once again assault and battery and various other charges. Good luck with that law suit mom. One down 5 more to go. Can’t blame it all on Brittinis influence now. These girls are all friends. So it further shows their character. A danger to society.

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September 2, 2008

Greg

I’m college educated, my degree is in philosophy but I have taken basic psychology classes.

Operant conditoning is the only scientifically guaranteed way to modify behavior. Praise does not work very well as a reward because praise comes with the assumption that they respect you, that they already see you as a role model, and that you have some sorta supernatural power over them.

We need to stick to the scientific proven solutions.

Everybody wants something, figure out what they want and use that as a reward.

In Positive Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of experiencing a positive condition. For example:

A hungry rat presses a bar in its cage and receives food. The food is a positive condition for the hungry rat. The rat presses the bar again, and again receives food. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of receiving food.

In Negative Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition. For example:

A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.

In Punishment a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of experiencing a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again receives a shock. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of receiving a shock.

In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.

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September 2, 2008

Greg

“In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.”

If someone were to save Victoria and experienced extinction, instead of positive reinforcement, there is no incentive for them to continue with this behavior.

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September 2, 2008

Greg

“A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat&rsquos behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.”

The bullying creates a shock to the victim which is only ended when the victim fights back, thereby creating a shock to the bully. Bullying in school is conditioning children like Victoria who may start off embracing non violence, into adults who learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

Thus bullying helps to produce war and violence, which gets blamed on Video Games, Music Videos, and Myspace rather than the very bullies who are conditioning kids into becoming violent adults. Anyone who has been bullied knows exactly what I’m talking about because they have experienced this conditioning.

When are we going to end it?

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October 12, 2008

Louie

I think they should arrest the parents as well for raising such violent girls. The have never showed them to take responsability for their actions.

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October 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

JOHN,
First off, discovery is only public record when it pertains to adults. My daughter’s pictures, name and address were made public 2 days before she was charged as an adult. You people have been had by PCSO. Just wait and see, the truth is coming. And boy is it a whopper. You dam right I will sue, and not for them arresting her ( for the stupid ones who said this) the bottom line is he should’ve made dam sure of his facts before going public!

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October 17, 2008

navigator

Christine, (if it is really you .. and I hope it is)

Your picture should be posted right next to the definition of white trash in the dictionary. You have corrupted your daughter and deserve every bit of humiliation that is coming to you due to this horrific event. You must not have been taught that opening your mouth leaves no doubt of stupidity and you should implement this in your life immediately. No one wants to hear anything you have to say. You only want to make money from this sick and sad event and it has made me and MANY OTHERS want to throw up.

So shut the H*&amp^ UP!!

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October 18, 2008

Christina Garcia

: ) Thank you for your opinions, but as we all know opinions are like hmm..well you’re a smart person you know the rest.

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October 18, 2008

Trench Reynolds

Let’s keep it civil people. Name calling in the comments isn’t necessary since the facts speak for themselves.

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October 20, 2008

Greg S

Christina, did you feel like you failed as a parent when you saw the video of what your daughter did to Victoria? Do you have any regrets?

And the final question, what would you say can be done to avoid these situations? You are in a unique position here where you can choose to either help educate the rest of us so we can learn from your mistakes.

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October 22, 2008

Amyv

Doubtful whether this is really Christina Garcia. But, on the off chance it is here is my reply. Get off your a** get a real job and raise your own kids.

If anyone had the right to sue it would be the woman who is raising your children since you are obviously not capable. We already know the facts, they were caught on video. But, because of your past remarks that it was a one on one fight (get real) I can see the influence your daughter has had to grow up with.

However, we all know Christina Garcia is using her daughter to get her 15 minutes of fame and possibly earn money off of this horrible action. Doubtful she will ever see a penny. If she does, get ready for civil suit from victims family. You will need the money.

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October 22, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I don’t see why this couldn’t be the real Christine Garcia. She displays the same personality traits as what we saw on her TV interviews: imperious, contentious, hostile, and just as eager as ever to blame the victim. The reason for this renewed assault on decency seems to be a continuation of the legal defense team’s attack on Victoria at the deposition. We knew they were going to attack her viciously, what else can they do? This is how defense lawyers operate. Remember the one Fox news exposed a few months ago, In Massachusetts, who boasted that he would destroy a six-year-old rape victim on the witness stand to defend his rapist client? Let us hope that Victoria has the strength to endure such maliciousness! As for this person. I do not hate her, but I have nothing to say to her, it would not do any good. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is to leave people alone. For her daughter I do have sympathy.

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October 24, 2008

Christina Garcia

To: Gregs

Yes I have many regrets on my own behalf, will I spill them all on here in public with so many people that hate me. No way! Someone who really is interested in our real lives, and not just getting in on the hype I would talk to them…and I want to leave you with one thought..does anyone wonder why Gloria A left the Lindsay’s case?

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October 24, 2008

gompertz

To Christina Garcia-I have said that I don’t hate you and that is true. Still, do you think you have given people reason to have a positive opinion of you? You have appeared on TV and communicated on these blogs, so apparently you care a little about what people think. Now, like most people who follow this story, I don’t know you or any of the others personally. All we have to go on is what we see (including of course the video) and read. The only information you have ever imparted to the public is :VICTORIA IS A VERY TERRIBLE PERSON. Yes, I capitalize it because you certainly do. Still, human beings are complicated, multidimensional beings and I’m sure this wild, horrible girl(as she may well be, for all we know) has some redeeming characteristics. Whatever good she has in her we will not learn from you. And that is the problem. The character traits I attributed to you above are certainly not complimentary. Whether you are that way in person, I don’t know, but somehow iI suspect you are probably much nicer than that offscreen. Yes, people are complicated mixtures of good and bad. The trouble is you are still attacking the victim. After what she went through at the deposition, one would expect at least a glimmer of sympathy from you. But no, you seem to derive vindictive pleasure from her pain. Do you? How does your hard-hearted stance help you, and much more important, how does it help your daughter? After all, she is the one faced with terrible possibilities if SAO have their way. The thing is, I do agree that she was badly treated by the Sheriff and a no-good BF. It is hard to reconcile the cold indifference to Victoria’s pain she showed on the video with the kind-hearted girl who loved bunnies and puppies. What went wrong? Yes, I have read the affidavits pertaining to the second arrest. Stabbed with a pen that left a mark on the skin, giving a push that did no harm. The most serious charge, involving the cars, I have seen that kind of thing handled very leniently here in NY. I don’t know if it was really Mercades who appeared here briefly Sept 7 (better you don’t answer) but I thought it might be. That brief, inarticulate comment sounded like a cry of pain, a cry for help. Just what I would expect from the real Mercades. Anyway I hope you are helping her and not doing more harm. I have spoken on these posts of meditation ands martial arts and compassion. Most people I’m sure think I’m nuts and off-topic. Well, I admit to being nuts, but not off-topic. I think all these things can help, also going to church can help. Not just to impress judge and jury, it’s easy to be cynical about that. You might also want to see what I posted on the Lakeland Wire before and see if it has any merit. Remember honey is better than vinegar. I wish you and your daughter well.

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October 24, 2008

GregS

Christina Garcia I don’t hate you or your daughter. I’m trying to understand your perspective and your behavior. I’m trying to understand your daughters perspective and her behavior.

I know you are focused on the trial, but thats the least of my concerns.My main concern is how we can prevent violent situations such as these from occuring at all.

By now you know that this sort of violence benefits no one, it’s your responsibility to save your daughter from her own violent tendencies. If you are willing to do whats in your daughters best interest, then you’ll find that many people here are wiling to help you out. But her behavior clearly has to change, because the behavior currently on display is unacceptable, and her reputation, is extremely tarnished and on the streets or in the business world we live and die on our reputations.

I respect the fact that you are brave enough to come to this site to read and respond to these posts. I also respect the fact that you are willing to defend your daughter no matter what. But her behavior must change, for her sake.

Reply
October 24, 2008

little evil

Has it occurred to anyone that people should be good just because it’s the right thing to do? My parents didn’t bribe us in to good behavior. We all turned out well. Same of my kids.

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October 24, 2008

GregS

Little evil, this is like saying “Has it ever occurred to anyone that people should just be good at math because math is important? Nobody taught me to be good at math, I was born with that talent and so were my kids.”

The problem with this thinking little evil is you assume everyone has the same genes, the same traits, the same talents, as you. It’s hard to be a good person, it’s hard to be good at life, it’s hard to make good decisions, if it were easy then everyone would be good at it but it’s like with calculus, not everyone is good at that but a select few are talented at math and act like the rest of us should just by our natural genetics be good at what they are good at.

This is flawed thinking and it only makes the problem worse when you think this way. It’s like with school, some kids naturally are sorta nerdy and good at school, but there is a new program paying kids to go to school and it’s actually working. You can call it bribing them to go to school if you want, but if it results in these kids getting better grades and having better lives, it’s worth it.

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October 25, 2008

Christina Garcia

Ok…I must be very careful here as I am sure you understand but honestly the Sheriff made things very difficult for me to handle things as maybe most of you think I should have. First things first we must get through our minds that Mercades did not hit the victim at all. The victim admitted in a deposition this past wed. that Mercades warned her to not go in the house. Also admitting that she went in the house to get her things, left the residence and then went back in. End of her admission BUT I feel it was to finish the arguement she was having with April or Brittany. Here’s my stand…had the sheriff kept things on the down low not told so many many many lies, the public had not been so outraged with hatred saying my kid ( not even speaking on Britts behalf) should spent her life in jail?? Maybe I wouldn’t have had to act like such an ass and I would’ve been able to deal with things the way I wished I could have. Its one thing to scold your child behind closed doors, punish them, in some cases spank them, or even allow them to pay a price within the legal system, but it’s another story when the world comes into your home and says ok..what are you going to do because we all want her hung or raped in prison, or life in prison and even worse things I don’t want to repeat. All I can say is had he not done so much damage to begin with and caused my family ( youngest daughter, my mom, and I) maybe you guys wouldve seen a different side of me. And for the person that commented about me not caring what other people think…you’re right! I am sorry but I was raised that if you stand for something ( which I do ) don’t worry about what others think, go all out and prove your point. And if my point is Mercades life…guess what it will be at any cost, including me holding the ” Worst Mother of The Year ” award.

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October 25, 2008

Christina Garcia

also, just for information purposes…nobody else agreed or wanted the stupid video, when everything went down one girl ( not 5 videos) started taping…and whats worse is that is what makes the case so bad and she ( not giving names) had her charges DROPPED! Mercades is sitting on the couch, the little girl in blue has Mercades’ phone, she said give the phone to Tori..

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October 25, 2008

gompertz

To Christina Garcia-I wonder if your reference to a person saying you don’t care what people think was based on my post, which said “apparently you care a little about what people think…” meaning you do care. That little word “a” is easy to miss but it does change the whole meaning. And I think you do care about your daughter. If you read my whole comment you would see that I feel your daughter got a bad deal, a view for which I don’t get much support, but I look at things calmly and rationally and come to my own conclusions based on the scant evidence available to me, including the affidavits concerning the second arrest. I read the charges, and I would say they are cause for some kind of intervention, but not from the police. I was not one of those who breathed s sigh of relief when that dangerous terrorist Mercades was taken off the streets. I would be happier if they found Osama ben Laden. Why I expressed criticism with your approach was that you seem, in your public appearances, and also here, to focus almost exclusively on Victoria, and I don’t see how that helps your daughter. Most of us, the vast majority, don’t know Victoria, and we hear conflicting accounts of what kind of person she is, how she’s doing now, and so on. If she has acted badly, remember she is just a child, as are the others. And, as I said, we are all human, we are all mixtures of good and bad, iincluding Victoria and also you. The trouble is by attacking Victoria you only hurt yourself and also your daughter, because it makes people less inclined to see that Mercades is also a victim. And since I really don’t know what kind of mother you are, I can’t judge. As for the sheriff, I am a little bit suspicious of his intentions. What purpose was served by releasing the tape in the first place? How did it help Victoria to receive the attention of the whole world in this way? It sure made the sheriff famous. I can’t help but mention, in passing, one point which has been made by myself and only one other person, that is: what’s the difference between the Lakeland six and the Jenna six? Something to think about. Now, not knowing Florida, and not being up one the laws, I have to wonder about this: violent crimes, including those committed by children, seem to result in two extremes: either acquittal, or at least nothing worse than probation, or at the other extreme, harsh punishment. It seems to be where this case is headed. The people on this blog, when they ask what punishment is appropriate, might say, 2 or 3 years of detention for some, a few months for others, and counseling. Lots and lots of counseling. Unfortunately that might not be an option given the charges. I also wonder whether the lawyers for the accused have their own agenda. They want to attack the victim as harshly as they can to create more drama and excitement, which of course makes a better story line when this mess gets televised. Or maybe they think their only chance is to make jurors think Victoria is such a very terrible person that maybe that terrible beating was just what she deserved. Most people certainly don’t think she deserved it no matter how many nasty revelations about her character are placed out there. I think what they did to her was really very bad, but they are not necessarily bad people. They are children who were exposed to a violent culture through the internet(yes, there are horribly violent things on the Internet, and anyone can access them easily). They seem to have no sense of purpose, and no hope, and that is the big picture. It’s not just the parents. And the courts respond in a most negative way. Since you’re down there in Florida,(I’m not) you need to focus on the question why the lawmakers write the kind of laws they do. Also the prison system needs to be reformed. Prison seems to be an even more dangerous place in Florida than elsewhere. Who is influencing the lawmakers? A small but vociferous minority of people who hate children seems to have the ear of the lawmakers and is drowning out the voices of reason. So there it is: join with the voices of reason to counteract the negative ones. How is up to you, I don’t know the specifics of how things work in Florida, you do. The only specific thing I can say is, please don’t think that by tearing down Victoria you are helping your daughter or the other girls. It’s difficult, with SAO and the legal teams all working for themselves and no one else. They really don’t care who they destroy to get publicity. Peace comes through meditation and then the answers appear.

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October 25, 2008

gompertz

One more point to Christina Garcia: you referred to your own behavior as “acting like an ass.” Well, take it from someone who spent many years acting like an ass, getting drunk and falling down and passing out and, well you get the picture. It’s how you act today that counts. I found peace and meaning through Tai Chi and Buddhism. That may not be your way. But you must find the way that is right for you, for yourself and for your daughter.

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October 25, 2008

Christina Garcia

to gregs and gomp I would be more then happy to speak to you 2 through my personal email at chrs8gar@aol.com…and I already know I will also get hate mail but as soon as I figure out it is not one of these 2 I will simply delete. I will admit that alot of my anger and frustration as a mom might have been misplaced.

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October 25, 2008

Christina Garcia

And what he said and did was not covered under the ” Sunshine Law” which is the only the an officer has to protect himself.

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October 26, 2008

GregS

This is unrelated, but you might find this interesting.

Evolutionary Psychology

One question for everyone is what impact does capitalism have on the evolutionary psychology of man? I’ve come to the conclusion that capitalism is currently dumbing us down rather than lifting us up because the altruistic and good aren’t getting rich and so their offspring are less likely to pass on their genetic material, which results in the dumbing down effect. And as a species, dumbing down increases our likely hood of extinction. I believe we all share an interest in this because eventually our offspring will have to mate with each other.

Another question is what effect does the media have on mating habits? Yes I recognize this might be off topic as well, but it’s a legit question.

Christina, I emailed you, you know what time it is.

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October 26, 2008

Christina Garcia

hey gregs..” its that time again” thanks

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October 27, 2008

Amyv

In response to the Jena 6 comment, I don’t see the comparison. Or maybe their is. They were judged to harshly. However, they jumped a student, not the one who hung the nooses. And, kept beating him after he was lying on the ground unconscious. They also threatened other white students they had on a list.

They then went to jail. However, the whole case was turned into a racial issue. Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson to the rescue. What punishment the boys got little to none. As a matter of fact they were honored at a music awards ceremony. What??? A few already had previous charges for acts of violence. And, now the main perp is in jail again along with one of the other boys for, guess what, an act of violent.

So essentially no punishment. Rewards for their behavior. The victim got no justice.

We will see what happens in this case when the trial is over. I suspect all of the girls are going to be pointing fingers at the others. Including their family members. The victim ZERO blame. No and, ifs or buts.

Curious about the tape. Stated no one wanted it. However, right after the beating, they all watched it. So they must have wanted it taped for something. I am sure no one wanted the tape after it was shown on t.v.

Once again, these girls will not go to jail for life. Florida does not have the worst juve. treatment. We have continuous repeat offenders that just rotate in and out of the system. Please show me statistics of mistreatment of juves. in Florida compared to other states. Not just one or two incidences.

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October 27, 2008

gompertz

Amy, welcome back. Of course the Jenna 6 thing has racial overtones, and this case doesn’t, at least shouldn’t, although I wonder if you are aware that on some forums pertaining to the Lakeland case, people introduced race into it in quite gratuitous ways and the discussions just went off one tangents, like whether blacks or whites are inherently more violent and so on. So race is never far below the surface and no need to go into that here, but there’s a book by Larry Elder that talks about these things, I forget the title, you might know it. About Mercades, you know we have never really seen eye to eye about that. But that’s why we have these discussions, people have different views. So let me reiterate my view. As far as what we see on the video, I can’t judge. I think there are multiple explanations for her action or inaction there, and we will have to wait for further revelations at the trial. But her previous troubles with the BF, including everything on the affidavits do not strike me as warranting harsh treatment. No doubt, these actions reveal a troubled young person in need of intervention. But I never saw her as a dangerous persons. The ones who did all that hitting, might be a different story. Yes, the car incident and the threats are serious, but I’ve seen how leniently such things are usually handled, and I can only suspect the Sheriff has his motives in singling this one out for special treatment. Not only what I’ve seen in NY, but in places across the country where I have friends, people just haven’t seen the actions she is accused of being treated with such severity. In one case a girl is hit by a car driven by a rival(not run off the road but actually hit) and sent to the hospital. The penalty is a night in jail and probation. And so it goes. People on various forums speak of the act of sending a valentine as if it were an act of violence. It was a violation of a court order, yes, but as far as I know, the valentine did not explode. Let me repeat:the beating of Victoria is different from this, and we will have to wait and see how the jury sorts out the degrees of guilt of the participants. But in taking a wait and see attitude we also have to examine our own views insofar as they may have been influenced by the way the case has been presented. We hear Mercades referred to as the “ringleader” and right away, we are tempted to judge prematurely. Think about the myspace account that was so disgusting that was supposed to be hers. It is several monthss since that was revealed to be a fake, yet it still gets quoted as if it were genuine. As for Mercades mother, it is admirable to see a mother try to protect her child. I do think she was too aggressive in trying to defend her, and that turned people against her. But the real damage was the interference by Dr. Phil. By his bumbling self-serving actions he gave the proceedings a circus atmosphere, and it is why people get the impression that Christina Garcia is only in it for money. Again, something about which we can have an honest disagreement. It is clear that the press gets a lot of things wrong, not because they are malicious, but because they are sloppy. When the law suit against the sheriff was announced, Bill Oreilly did a brief report. Now, I am a great admirer of Bill Oreilly but he botched that report. They kept talking about how the mother of the girl in the video was suing the sheriff. Now, true, Mercades did appear in that video, but the image theyr showed was of Hardcastle repeatedly hitting Victoria, and you got the distinct impression that that was the girl whose mother was suing. And when they mentioned the name of Mercades the mix up was complete. It probably isn’t much in the big picture, but all these little inaccuracies help to create a public impression that may be wrong in some important aspects. I think Mercades and her mother had valid reasons for wanting to say something to clear up certain points, but I think the judge was on solid legal grounds in not allowing it. If he lifted the restrictions on Mercades, it would have been hard for him not to do it for all of them. Now each of these girls has their own degree of guilt in what is certainly a serious crime(see,I never denied it is a serious crime). And if they all come out and speak publicly, we have a confusion of voices contradicting each other, blaming each other, and creating chaos which the public couldn’t sort out. o all will have to wait to sort it out in court, and hopefully soon. As for what is happening now, it is appalling and just what I feared. You have expressed your view several times as to what you think appropriate punishments should be, and I agree with your assessment. But a fair and balanced judgment gets less and less likely as SAO and the legal teams are locked in mortal combat and don’t care who they destroy. If as I hear some of the families of the accused have bought into the strategy of destroying Victoria to save their daughters, they are risking disaster. I have great misgivings about the motives of SAO and the lawyers, who knows what corruption has influenced their calculations. But that is too depressing a subject to enter into here. Amy, we have some differences of opinion here, but I always respect your honest and open idea. Your questions about Florida’s policy toward incarcerating juveniles, and whether it is harsher or less so than other states, I cannot answer, I only know these claims have been made repeatedly. I myself have asked for answers and haven’t received any.

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October 27, 2008

gompertz

Amy, the name of the Larry Elder bookis “The Ten Things You Can’t Say in America.”

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October 28, 2008

GregS

Gomp can we at least agree that the girls who actually beat Victoria deserve prison time? The girls who did physically beat Victoria should get years in prison. They are on tape beating Victoria.

I don’t know what Mercades level of involvement is, it could be that we don’t have good information. The police say Mercades lured Victoria into the house, but also in the video Victoria says she cares about Mercades, it’s complicated.

As far as running people off the road, thats a very serious crime. Whether Mercades is the ringleader or a follower, she’s involved with people who are thugs.

“Now, true, Mercades did appear in that video, but the image theyr showed was of Hardcastle repeatedly hitting Victoria, and you got the distinct impression that that was the girl whose mother was suing.’”

I just noticed that too. They do seem to be pinning the blame on Mercades with little to no evidence released beyond whats on the tape, and Mercades is barely seen at all on the tape.
I also read the transcript and Mercades is not the person doing most of the talking, so I think we can come to the agreement that Mercades did not assault Victoria. Instead Mercades will probably be charged with some lighter offense.

We will see what happens when the trial starts but definately and absolutely the girls who are beating on and talking to Victoria like that in the video deserve real prison time. Mercades is under house arrest, I don’t know what shes been charged with or what evidence they have, but if she’s not the ringleader then eventually the truth will come out.

I think the reason the public blames Mercades is because of how the video is presented. When all of us saw the video, they show a big picture of Mercades which fades in, then they show the video, then the police and experts talk about how the persons in the video show no mercy and no remorse. And of course as they talk about that, they show all the girls pictures.

So I see your point as to how the media has been sloppy, butI don’t know if you can completely blame the media. The real tape wasn’t shown to us until months later, a lot of people saw the heavily censored shorter version and I didn’t see Mercades at all in the short version.

In the long version of the video Mercades is in it, but she’s not doing anything to help Victoria from what I could see. It’s an absolute must that persons who physically assaulted Victoria get prison time, it must be done as a deterrent.

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October 28, 2008

GregS

What they, the media should do, is wait until the details of the case come out so that the quality of the information is better. But also the media has a responsibility to discuss the girl who actually physically attacked Victoria. That girl is Brittni Hardcastle.

In discussing Mercades and the others they should discuss how and why someone would sit and do nothing while their “friend” is being beat up in their house. I think now the media is so silent that its only making things worse.

I go to the video on youtube and people are seeing it for the first time and still as pissed off as they were when it came out 6 months ago. I hear Mercades and her family have received death threats, which is entirely wrong, but which probably came about due to the fact that they claim Mercades is the ring leader.

I don’t claim that any of these girls are innocent, but what do people hope to accomplish by sending them death threats?
Some even sent death threats to the two guys, who probably didn’t even know what was going on.

But of course when the media talked about it, it was 8 people following a plan thought up by Mercades to trap and torture Victoria for 30 minutes. Now, there might have been a plan, but can we say for sure that Mercades planned it?

I think the problem Mercades is currently facing is that her reputation is damaged now to the point that people believe she had her friend set up whether or not there is any proof.

Did Mercades really call Victoria and tell her to hurry and get back to the house? If there is evidence that she did, then the police and media consensus will be that Mercades lured Victoria to the house. The stalking charge against Mercades and running people off the road only makes it more believable that she could have lured Victoria to the house, even if it has nothing to do with the case involving Victoria, Mercades is being convicted in the trial of public opinion.

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October 28, 2008

GregS

About race, I don’t think race plays a role in whether or not a person is good or bad. I think people who do bad stuff and who hurt people like to hide behind their race as a way to protect and shield themselves.

Just look at how O.J. Simpson became a black man for his trial. Suddenly he wasn’t just O.J.Simpson, he was the “black” O.J. Simpson. And it worked, the black community fell for it that one time, but when he tried to do it again, with a different generation of blacks, they saw through it. I think there are whites who do the same thing, they hide behind their race because they know nobody likes their behavior, but at least they are white right?

If there are different types of humans, I divide humans by behavior. It makes no different to me that Victoria Lindsay is white, it’s the situation she’s in that matters, and it’s the behavior of the people putting her in that situation.

I think there are only two types of people in this world, predators, and everybody else. The predators prey on the weak, and they exist in every race equally. Each race has to manage it’s predator population or each race will self destruct.

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October 28, 2008

GregS.

Just look at this Amyv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbIduxCX5Yk

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October 28, 2008

gompertz

Greg, you ask “Can we at least agree that the girls who actually beat Victoria deserve prison time?” Yes, of course I think they deserve that sort of punishment. How much time they get is up to the judge, and he may go easier on them if they show remorse. However, as far as the beating, the tape does speak for itself, and it’s pretty clear they won’t be able to justify it by any further revelations, and if they try to blame the victim will only make matters worse. As for my more favorable opinion of Mercades, I did try to look at it rationally, but partly it is emotional. The first thing that impressed me was the report of her care for animals. I know that love for animals is not a decisive factor in evaluating a person’s character, and there’s always a cynic who will point out that Hitler was a vegetarian. Still, for me, at least, it’s something that counts in the person’s favor. As I said, it’s an emotional reaction. What further repelled me was the degree of malice shown by many commentators on the blogs, and even more so in the newspapers. I found it peculiar that so many commentators seemed obsessed with demeaning the physical appearance of Mercades and the other girls. Since I found nothing displeasing in the purely physical appearance of any of them, I thought the constant “fat and ugly” references out of place. I wonder if some of the people making these comments really enjoyed that video on a subliminal level, but couldn’t admit to themselves that they enjoyed it. Taking pleasure in watching a girl be brutally beaten certainly doesn’t agree with one’s image of oneself as a decent person, and so such pleasure cannot be admitted. However, since the enjoyment is too strong to be simply repressed, it must be actively opposed. An example of this phenomenon would be someone with homosexual tendencies who cannot admit these feelings, so he becomes a crusader against gay rights,touring the country preaching about the evils of homosexuality. Anyway I am always suspicious of intense passions of aversion for some individual or group. So these extremely negative comments, like the death threats, really made me feel a little pity for the perpetrators. Now, when Mercades was arrested a second time, there was new flurry of insults, directed against her alone.I examined what evidence was available, and I concluded that her punishment was not warranted, either by the sheriff and SAO or by the people attacking her in the papers. I do understand that the charges are serious. The people in the car could have been injured. The fact remains that such incidents have usually been leniently dealt with. Take the case I mentioned above, where a girl was actually hit by a car driven by her rival, and the punishment was light. I do feel that the punishment should have been much more severe, but the courts don’t care what I think, and in fact they consistently give very lenient sentences for worse things that what Mercades was accuse of. When we see someone receive a punishment far in excess of what is usual for a particular offense, we are justified in looking for a reason. A reason is not hard to find if we look at the behavior of the sheriff. Just the fact that he released the tape to the public at all, when it was sure to cause even greater pain to the victim, demonstrates his intention to use this horrible event to enhance his reputation as a tough lawman. The arrest of Mercades just added to his image, coming as it did right after her mother filed the lawsuit. And when people point out that it was SAO and not the sheriff’s office that ordered the arrest, are they suggesting that SAO and PCSO don’t work together? Of course none of this is conclusive. But that alone should make people careful in jumping to conclusions. As you say, there are so many factors here that have not been sorted out, such as Mercades’ seeming acquiescence in the beating, that hopefully will be more clear when it finally goes to trial. I do wish that those who express opinions would reflect on what they write and consider the hurt that it can cause. Yes, I understand that people are free to express whatever they want. But they are also free to reflect on what they express and what it means. My main concern, as always, is with the well-being of Victoria. and I think that goes for most people out there. There are some really positive ways to show support for her.

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October 28, 2008

gompertz

I also want to comment on the tendency of some people to drag race into everything. There is a certain white supremacist web site, where they express hate for everyone who isn’t white. They even express contempt for white people who study martial arts, because they say it’s part of Asian culture and thus corrupts “the white race.” Now, when the first pictures of Victoria Lindsay came out, these geniuses made the observation that she looked “rather Jewish.” So, they said, let’s do some research on her ancestry, because if it turns out she’s Jewish, well, she had it coming. So they did their research and were satisfied with her “ethnic purity”. They then put out their account of the beautiful aryan princess who was attacked by a “multicultural gang.” I refuse ti jeopardize my sanity by trying to figure that out, but it shows again that if someone wants to make anything into a racial issue, it can be done if you try hard enough.

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October 28, 2008

Christina Garcia

I just wanted to say I appreciate some of you reserving your judgment until all facts are on the table, and seeing through the Sheriff’s lie and motivations, and I wouldn’t put it past him to have put the victim under alot of pressure to back him up, ending in her having to get the heck out of here, she no longer lives in Polk County. And I also respect the canstructive critism. And I am listening, and thinking about everyone on here minus anyone who thinks Mercades deserves major time in jail.

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October 28, 2008

amyv

Greg – Thank you for the additional information. Watched the tape. I had not seen this news on t.v. I suggest everyone who wants to discuss issues further go to this web site.

Very disturbing what this boy says. But, we have already seen people blaming him for Mercades actions. Just like the sheriff is to blame, the media and of course all the girls fear of Brittini Hardcastle.

I am sorry Ms. Garcia but, your daughter has got to be held responsible for her actions. Everyone can not be to blame and crucifying your daughter unfairly.

The victim, as far as the facts I have seen has been very truthful about the events. Telephone records should show how many times she was called before arrivilng at the house to further back up her version. She truthfully said Mercades never touched her. However, Mercades made no effort to help her “friend”,
drove Victor in her grandmothers car. Even though, the victim did not want to get in the car.
And possibly most disturbing “Don ‘t hit the shelf”.
Not “Quit beating the crap out of my friend”.

I wander why Victoria felt the need to leave towm. Couldn’t be because these girls still live their. And, she still may be scared if threats made after the first beating. It is all because of the sheriff?

Please, lay the blame on the people who commited the crime. The tape speaks for itself.
Lets help stop violence and bullying by our teenager.s

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October 28, 2008

Christina Garcia

I have never said Mercades shares no blame. EVER! And I am sorry as well, but the victim has not been completely honest, Mercades is still a teenager and we do not have the same mindset..period. I have admitted she is to be held partly responsible, so why is she the only one being attacked?? Just because the other mothers don’t have the ass to show thier face? I have already admitted that maybe my anger was misplaced, but I want Tori to be honest about Mercades telling her to leave and also she asked Mercades to take her to CVS…I am tired of hearing how Mercades forced her into the car, this will all come out. The deposition reflected all of this and I have to admit I am relieved. I never put the blame on everyone else..but she didn’t touch her and yet she is getting all the heat. And like others on here pointed out, it is because the Sheriff felt impelled to magnify her, because I called him out on his lies lies lies. Thank God, Mercades has a STRONG backbone like mommy. Bullies do have to be stopped, we need programs something within the schools and online, as the victim was involved in bullying others online and in school ( This is no excuse for the violence! ) The school they attended is horrible filled with hate, racism, and the mean girl mentality. I feel sorry for Tori, she was rejected by people she loves, therefore feeling sad, angry, and rejected…hence lashing out for attention AND the same goes for everyone, one of the suspects’ mother wasn’t even here in Florida she was living with another family member. And Mercades?? She has rejection issues, but its not from me, anyone can ask her thierselves. I didn’t just come into this picture I have been here. I was very strict on her, ending in some misfortune, but nobody can say I rejected her. I love her through good and bad. I only want the truth to come out, I don’t hate Tori : * ( I was angered by the Sheriff making things up..and by the way her papa’s ashes were in that shelf that everyone is talking about.

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October 28, 2008

amyv

Christinia – By no means do I blame your daughter alone. We all can see who was the worst of that bunch. However, they all have commited a crime and showed their bullying on tape. Even if this was by their inaction to help the victim.

The problem I believe that makes your daughter look bad, besides being their, is that Victoria said on the tape “mercades you are my friend”. And your daughter did not help her. I do not know what the victim said at her deposition. That is one of the reasons I have stated before that it is up to a judge and jury who have all the facts to decide appropriate punishment.

And, I do have a teenage daughter. I know girls can be mean and cruel. But, they have to be punished for their actions. We also have not had access to the full tape. However, what we have seen, without any other parties involved was horrific.

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October 29, 2008

Christina Garcia

Thats just the thing you have seen all the tape there is. Just another lie from the Sheriff saying that the tape was 30 minutes long. Look, Mercades will have to live for the rest of her life the night she was a coward, it will taunt her for the rest of her days, I know this because she is made up from some pretty strong stuff in her blood. But to call her a bully is wrong..if you think about it trying to deal with being a coward is way worse then being a bully. Nobody will ever know if she was scared of Brittany inside or if it was more of wanting to fit in. Or if in her teenage mind she thought ” well, I told her many times not to go in the house and that those girls were in the house, and she chose to go argue with these girls, I did my part to save her from danger” The Sheriff painted the picture as if Tori went inside and people just jumped her all at once, but her testimony among others plainly states she went into the residence for her things, went outside to put her things in the car, and then when Brittany was yelling at her she went back into the house to argue. You know what, I don’t want to tell ” Our Truth” anymore, it can’t come from us, it needs to come from the victim. I have pictures of Mercades and Tori together, when Tori’s parents kicked her out and she was sleeping in cars or on the streets it was Mercades who begged and pleaded to give Tori a place to stay, only for Tori to take my mom’s car in the middle of the night without permission, when my mom woke up at 6am to go to work not knowing where her car was, being late for work. But hey, she is a teen and we all know this, and teens are difficult, but I have my own teen and her dad should’ve stepped up to the plate and dealt with problems. I had my own problems with Mercades, but it stayed within the family as teen problems should, and I NEVER kicked her out into the street. All of these girls have problems some more then others. And one night in March it went horribly wrong.

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October 29, 2008

gompertz

To Christina and Amyv- I want to thank both of you for raising the discussion to a higher level. Your honest and open exchange of views gives me hope that something positive may come out of this tragic incident after all.

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October 29, 2008

Christina Garcia

I have to correct something I just seen..I wrote Tori’s testimony and I meant her statement. Sorry

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October 29, 2008

GregS

I think the point Christina is making is that Mercades is not a bully. And based on the evidence there is no reason to believe Mercades is a bully. Hardcastle is the bully.

I now understand Christina’s perspective. The media has twisted our perception in such a way so that we’d pin the majority of the blame on Mercades. The media gave Mercades the nickname “the ring leader”. The media also would show pictures of Victoria getting beat up by Hardcastle on the left, while slowly zooming into the face of Mercades on the right, and talking about the attack as if Mercades is the one beating up Victoria.

I did objective research and I found that this is a common technique. They used this same technique to link Saddam to 911, remember that?
Here is a video example of the trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqc2CtzYCQ

This video here is proof that the media does manipulate our perception of Mercades, as the same manipulation you see in this video is what you see in the video I showed Amyv earlier. It’s not just happening to Mercades either, the more you watch news broadcasts the more you’ll notice dirty tricks and techniques.

Important questions:

1. why was Mercades singled out to such a degree where she’s labeled the ringleader?(If you pay close attention to the tone of voice, the media calls her the ringleader in a way which sounds like it’s her mafia nickname and not just an opinion.)

2. Why is it that in certain videos where they show the pictures and faces of all the teens, do they always seem to zoom directly into Mercades face and not Hardcastle or the others? (Pay close attention and you’ll notice that they slowly and eerily zoom into her face in the same way they do with Bin Laden, Pedophile, etc)

3. Why is it that we aren’t hearing anything at all about Hardcastle? She’s the girl beating Victoria up on tape.

These are 3 questions which I want answers to. If anyone wants to understand the reason for these questions, look at all the media broadcasts you can find and watch them over and over again, pay close attention to the details until you begin to notice the little tricks being used. I know I cannot be the only one who sees this.

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October 29, 2008

Christina Garcia

I appreciate the support I am starting to recieve, keeping in mind that I am Pro Tori, but I want the truth to come out, and I am dead set against how the system has animalized my daughter, she is human too.

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October 29, 2008

Christina Garcia

And the media had help..without the Sheriff they would have had nothing to feed off of, he handed Mercades’ head over to the media on a silver platter.

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October 29, 2008

GregS

Christina if you are pro Victoria hopefully when you write your book you will donate a portion of the profits either to Victoria or to charity. This will be good for your Karma and will help restore you and your daughters reputation.

You are in the interview with Greta, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34P94JliUX0 and you basically have said the same stuff you told all of us. The evidence indicates that you are being truthful.

And while I agree that your daughter isn’t a bully, I do think Hardcastle deserves some real time in real prison. She has to go to prison to send a message to the others. I don’t know exactly what your daughter is being charged with, but if he’s not the ring leader and Hardcastle is the ring leader, then maybe she should testify under oath that Hardcastle is the ring leader. Cara Murphy didn’t prevent it from happening but she’s not being called the ring leader, and I think the reason why is because Cara Murphy is willing to testify, or at least thats what I heard.

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October 29, 2008

Christina Garcia

Acually Cara Murphy’s charges were dropped some time ago. But refuse to be bitter about how she didn’t do anything to stop Hardcastle and still was released of all charges. I just have to press on and only worry about teaching my daughter a lesson in a reasonable way for being involved with bad people, but at the same time making it clear exactly what she is guilty of ( not getting involved or getting in between them) but that’s it, and I need to be sure that everyone knows the truth, so that this hang her mentality goes away. As far as ” The Book” if it suceeds, I want to start an organiztion for bullying in schools and online and also working against corruption within the legal system, but only after I pay off everything I have had to borrow against to get Mercades a high priced attorney, which I wouldn’t have had to do had the Sheriff not have made this into such an ordeal at my daughter’s sake. I won’t know where to start something like this, so if anyone has any experience let me know.

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October 29, 2008

gompertz

Here are a few more ways that our perception s can be skewed by the way things are reported. I refer only to the case involving the BF. As I said many times, Mercades’ role in the beating of Victoria is another issue, and full of questions that hopefully will be answered in court. I hope that those questions will be examined calmly and objectively, which seems unlikely to happen if the defense team makes good its threat to turn the trial into a circus. Now as for the charges in the case with the BF, I do admit that they should be taken seriously. I merely suggest that some reports present these charges in a way that could distort our judgment. As to the incident with the pen, some reports state simply “she stabbed her boyfriend” or “she stabbed him with a pen.” Compare that with what the affidavit says: “suspect stabbed (name deleted) three times in the hand with a pen…advised the incident did not cause any permanent damage but left several marks where the pen had left ink behind.” The online dictionary definition of stabbing has (1) a wound produced by a pointed weapon (2) a thrust of a pointed weapon. Wikipedia says “A stabbing is the penetration of a sharp or pointed weapon at close range…” And I do think that when most people think of “stabbing” they have a mental image of wounding caused by penetration. Yet the affidavit clearly states the pen did not cause permanent damage, and left some ink marks. It seems some term like “marking” or “nicking” would be more appropriate. Of course those terms don’t make for such a dramatic account as “stabbing”. I only want to look at one more charge, from the same affidavit, which states:”The suspect began making threats to (name deleted) in the note advising she was going to have a group of boys beat him up after school…” Now, I do think that kind of threat should be investigated. But what would this investigation show? What resources did Mercades have available to carry out this threat? Was such a group already assembled to carry out the threat? Did she have a gang of minions at her command? Maybe, but the reports did not say. Am I the only one who wondered about that? I’m not trying to act as counsel for the defense. What I am saying is that we have here a case of the media creating false impressions by what they say and don’t say.

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October 30, 2008

Didacticus

Some notes:

First, it is NOT criminal in Florida to you fail to stop, or try to stop, or report, a crime in progress. Even law enforcement officers are NOT charged with a crime when they do not report a crime in progress even if they were right there.

Second, Cara’s lawyer said she did try to stop the beating several times, albeit not forcefully enough. Also, one girl (not Cara) can be heard very clearly yelling at Hardcastle three times LET HER RUN AWAY.

Third, it is amazing that people want any of the girls, and Mercades in particular, to go to PRISON. In Florida, ADULTS nearly NEVER go to prison for MISDEMEANOR battery, and rarely go to JAIL. Most of the time they get PROBATION, occasionally COMMUNITY CONTROL (a form of house arrest) for up to a year.

And yet so many people want these CHILDREN — even those who merely failed to STOP the beating — to end up in PRISON. That means spending more than a YEAR in a place that is dangerous, psychologically damaging, that effectively denies young people any education beyond 8th grade, and has been shown to generally INCREASE the likeliness and gravity of criminal behaviour in children and young adults.

Again, it is amazing how VICIOUS adults can be towards children while being so tolerant of a system that is often lenient on adults who abuse children.

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October 30, 2008

Didacticus

One more note, this one to Christina:

Keep in mind you do NOT know if the inaccurate description of events by Tori was intentional. Concussion is well known to cause considerate loss and disruption of memory. Furthermore, it has been shown to lead to FALSE memories, simply because the brain constructs meaning out of jumbled and incomplete memories at a time when the person’s faculties to rationally control such process. And for about three to four days after a even a moderate concussion, the brain is affected, going into essentially a minimal operating mode and relies much more on instincts rather than on reasoning — and it is during that time that Tori gave all of her initial statements.

If you’re the real Christina Garcia, try to treat Tori the way you would treat Mercades. If all people found in their heart the ability to treat children at least half as good as they wished others to treat their own children, the world would be an immensely better place.

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October 30, 2008

Truth

Christina, I would like to take this opportunity to correct you on a few things as I know them to be the truth. I know the Lindsay’s, although not a family member. Gloria Allred was released by the Lindsay’s because they could not afford her expenses even though the legal fees were pro bono. Period. Tori was never kicked out of her home. She was a runaway many times and her parents tried everything in their power to keep her there but met the Polk County resistance from police, DJJ, DCF. Every time Tori’s father caught up with her and brought her home, she would just wait until they went to sleep to run away again. The Lindsay’s have put her through counseling, work programs, medicine, and therapy. Didn’t work. Tori was a freebird who did not want to listen to her parents rules and did not want to live there either. She lied her way into people’s homes and not one phone call was made to her parents or police. Although admiral for taking her in, they were actually causing more problems by not checking on Tori’s stories about her parents. The Lindsay’s are distraught over all of the children involved and have publically forgiven them on tv. The Lindsay’s have also taken the high road about the situation and have never demeaned or insulted any that were involved. They have three other children to think about and have been inundated with media, medical bills, loss of employment, and loss of medical insurance. They also have not made one penny from any of this. The GMA interview that will take place has no focus on the case other than how Tori is now. Not so good though, she is no angel by far. Please accept this truth from me as I have no animosity or bad feelings for you or your daughter. May God bless your family and I hope things work out for you. Remember, the Lindsay’s never pressed any charges in this matter. The State did. Thank You

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October 30, 2008

Christina Garcia

Truth:

I refuse to argue about anything that has to do with Tori. And you know why? Because I don’t hate her like alot of people think, I feel bad for what happened to her, and I feel bad about my statement that was not only my misplaced anger, but also twisted. I stand by everything I have said here as truth. But Tori is a victim not a target and I refuse to speak about her in any way negative. As far as GMA, we shall see what will be said. God Bless you and may God bless and watch over Tori.

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October 30, 2008

gompertz

What I am going to say now I have been thinking about for some time. and it is not out of some fleeting emotion that I say it. Once on this forum I referred to Mercades as a coward. I am very sorry I said that. You see, everyone is a coward sometimes. I retain enough from my days in Catholic school long ago to remember the story of how Peter denied Christ because he feared for his own safety. He regretted it bitterly. Then he found his courage and did great things. Take it literally or symbolically, it doesn’t matter. The point is that you can go from being a coward to being a hero, and if someone you care about has been hurt by your wrong choice, you can redeem yourself if you try. I would say that with all she has been through, with being arrested and having to endure all those insults from so many people, Mercades is a hero.

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October 30, 2008

amyv

I do not think any of these issues will truely be answered until this case goes to trial. If this is the full tape, and the sheriff lied, that wlll come out in the wash. Surprised if this is true that it has not been brought up before.

I do agree I always felt ringleader should have been attached to Brittini Hardcastle. However, I believe the name was attached to Mercades because the assault happened in the house she was living at. So the girls were all basically there to hang out with Mercades.

As for Cara trying to stop the fight, first time that information has been put out either. As a matter of fact after her charges were dropped she said she didn’t think at the time of the beating it was a big deal. I did not hear her comment once that she tryed to intervene.

And, when the comments were made about letting Victoria go, I believe that was after the girls that said it, got their licks in. Especially, April Cooper.

Just to much here say, until the trail shows real evidence. But, as I said before the part of the tape we did see speaks volumes and is extremely disturbing. Whether, the girls were actively beating, encouraging in the background, taping, blocking the doorway or just idely sitting by is all very disturbing.

Christrina, I truely hope you are not planning on writing a book about this crime. That would be inappropriate and would give those that attack you and your daughter further ammunition. No monentary benefits should be claimed for this crime.

I still see a trend, not specifically you Ms. Garcia, but also others to paint the victim in a bad light. Very subtly but, still inappropriate.
None of these girls seem to have come from a stable home.

But, just as I don’t feel that is a good excuse for the offenders, I also don’t feel it has bearing at all on the victim. She did not do anything to deserve the beating. period. So please lets wait until the trail.

I also to much emphasis being put on did the boy get a puncture wound. If you “stab” at someone with a pen, you are wrong. But, that is a difference case and does show a tendancy towards violence.

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October 30, 2008

gompertz

Amy, never did I or anyone else say the charges were not serious. I introduced the incident with the pen only to focus on the issue of how the media reported it. All the reports I saw on TV simply said, “She stabbed him with a pen.” None of them added “…but it did not puncture the skin.” That would have been more faithful to the actual statement in the affidavit,but it would have been much less sensational. Since few people will bother to read the affidavit, most will be left with the bare statement, “She stabbed him with a pen.” Now, in the absence of any more specific information, people will fill in the details themselves, relying on their own experience of what a stabbing means. Since most have never witnessed a person actually being stabbed, they could fall back on movie references. I think it was “Point of No Return”, in which the Bridget Fonda character stabs a man with a pencil, piercing his hand all the way through. Love those special effects! So people will identify Mercades with the crazed violent character in the movie. And why wouldn’t they let their imaginations run wild, when the media encourage it by manipulation of the facts? Remember this process of manipulation is subtle. I think you saw the video for which Greg provided the link, where the BF was speaking about his problems with Mercades? His account of her violent behavior was reinforced by the brief statement by a neighbor who intimated with due gravity that she is indeed a very bad girl. So there you have it: confirmation of what the BF said. Q.E.D. But isn’t that like buying several copies of the same daily newspaper, and seeing that they agree word for word, conclude that what they say must be correct? That would be silly, right? Yet people fall for it every day, and the media succeed in swaying public opinion by planting suggestions that are reinforced by more suggestions. The BF said nothing about his own wrongdoing, and the neighbor gave no evidence for her judgment. Yet the story had an aura of authoritative reporting that seemed convincing. Now let me repeat what I asked about Mercades threat have a group of boys beat up the BF. By what means was this threatto be carried out? Do we know that such a group existed? Did school authorities check to see whether any menacing-looking tough guys were congregating outside? Of course any threat of violence needs to be investigated. I haven’t seen the results of such an investigation. Maybe there wasn’t any, maybe there was. But the media know how to misrepresent the truth by what they don’t say as well as by what they say. In the absence of complete evidence I can only ask myself what is the most likely explanation. Take the allegations of threats that Victoria made to beat up the other girls. How much of a threat did she pose to them? They were bigger and outnumbered her. So I really don’t think they were defending themselves against her when they attacked her. I guess it was what they call a “preemptive strike.” It’s why I never believed that Iraq posed a threat to the U.S. A fourth-rate power, run by a tin-horn dictator who couldn’t control his own capital city, and he is supposedly more dangerous than Hitler? Yet people fell for it, the WMD’s and the mushroom clouds. Do you think media manipulation helped fuel the public acceptance of the pretext for war? I believe it. As for Mercades, no one ever said she is blameless. NO ONE. Amy, I know you hope for a fair trial and a fair outcome, with appropriate punishments, no more no less. So do I. However, I find the latest reports from Polk County very disturbing. It looks like these two juggernauts, the prosecutors and the defense team, are heading for a great confrontation which will destroy Victoria as well as the accused. Let’s pray it doesn’t come to that.

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October 31, 2008

GregS

Third, it is amazing that people want any of the girls, and Mercades in particular, to go to PRISON. In Florida, ADULTS nearly NEVER go to prison for MISDEMEANOR battery, and rarely go to JAIL.

Thanks for reminding me that I can corner you in a room with a bunch of my friends and beat you up for 30 minutes and get away with it. Amazing that I can do that and it’s just a misdemeanor.

The girls who beat Victoria up have to go to prison, period, and theres nothing you can say to change my mind on that. They showed no empathy and no remorse, they beat her down thug style, and they have to go to prison. And if you think otherwise then perhaps you wouldn’t mind being locked in a room with a bunch of guys while they take turns beating you up. In my opinion we have to send a message or next time it will be worse, people are watching the result of this case, some of the people waiting for the results are bullies and thugs and they want to see if they can continue to bully people and get slapped on the wrist. This is like the Enron of bullying trials, and while Mercades is not the main character and I’m willing to let her off the hook, Hardcastle is a pure thug, we saw her on the video acting like a thug and people like that truly belong in prison. Unless you want wait until the streets brings the consequences to her, it’s best that the law makes her pay the consequences, because her behavior will get her killed on the streets.

And yet so many people want these CHILDREN &mdash even those who merely failed to STOP the beating &mdash to end up in PRISON.

Thats bullshit, they aren’t children. Maybe the 14 year old is a child but these are mostly 17-18 year olds, they are adults. I wasn’t going around physically locking people in rooms and beating them up at 17-18. And if I were to do that to you, I’d go to prison. Let’s be real here, only the behavior matters not the numbers associated with the behavior. I want to correct the behavior and while prison might not be the answer for every one of these girls, for the girls who were beating Victoria up, prison is the answer for them. Why?

1. They showed no empathy, remorse or compassion for the victim and exhibit predatory behavior. All violent predators belong in prison.

2. They have previous criminal records. This is not their first offense, and if these were boys who beat up a homeless man and just happened to be 17, I’d demand they go to prison for the same reason.

People who use the excuse that they are kids are letting their emotions influence their judgements, and their judgements are compromised. Predatory behavior must be corrected, and if we don’t correct it while they are young they’ll just become more efficient predators as they get older. And a lot of predators are watching them, men and women, who want to see if these “kids” will get away with it so they can go and do the same thing.

Listen carefully, if we let them get away with this, if you treat violent criminals as “kids”, the violent “kids” watching this will see you as a weak sucker, someone who thinks with their emotions, someone they can take advantage of and walk all over, and they’ll also see that because of suckers like you they’ll be able to start locking people in rooms and beating them up in mass, it will become a trend. In a year we will be looking at this site and Youtube and we will see hundreds of cases and hundreds of new victims like Victoria, and these hundreds will become thousands if we let those hundreds get away with it too, it’s like an epidemic, do you understand? It’s like a mind virus, it will spread and if you don’t put a stop to it now then you’ll be enabling the spread.

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October 31, 2008

GregS

Amyv I saw the same video you saw, and Hardcastle’s behavior is just plain scary.

I think her behavior shows that she belongs in prison. I think if none of these girls go to prison then this will create incentive for the other Hardacastles of the world to do the same thing.

And what if the others do a much better job or make an even more disturbing video?

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October 31, 2008

GregS

Truth, we know Victoria is no angel. It doesn’t change the fact that she is the victim of a violent crime. Sure Victoria might lie, she might be a con artist, but there are different degrees and categories of criminal and she’s a non violent type.

Victoria cannot be compared to Hardcastle. When you watch the video, the force behind Hardcastles punches, you’d think she was an amateur boxer, it’s understandable why all the other girls in the room feared her. If someone hits that hard, it’s understandable why you wouldn’t speak up.

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October 31, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I agree with everything you said. Only have a few minutes this morning. Good to see different viewed presented ion a civilized manner. The video does speak for itself, enough said. The things we do know call for severe punishment for some of them. I’ve often speculated on the things we don’t know for sure, such as whether someone like BH is incorrigibly evil or whether she can be rehabilitated. We don’t want to be swayed by emotion in being too lenient but emotion can also make us err in the other direction, in denying even the possibility of correction. The video evidence, as well as the subsequent absence of any sign of remorse are not promising, and only time will tell. One would hope that clearer insights into the character of these people, their motives and the true extent of their depravity would emerge in the trial. But that won’t happen if the defense team makes good its threat to attack Victoria unmercifully and the court allows it. (Why would they do that? Desperation or diabolical cleverness? Who knows?) Now, from the short video clips of judge Spoto he seems to be a solid jurist, objective and thoughtful. Let’s hope that’s true. I’m sick of those posturing, made-for-TV celebrity judges that pollute the airwaves. What would this calm objective judge look for? Signs of remorse would indicate that there is hope for rehabilitation, obviously. But if the attorneys really go after Victoria and renew her agony, the rational observer would have to ask, not only “are theyr sorry for what they did to her that day” but also “are they sorry for what their lawyers are doing to her today.” Any sign of enthusiasm, any clue that they might be enjoying watching their victim suffer again, should lead the rational judge to conclude that thir hatred for her is truly pathological, and thus they would pose an immanent threat to her safety at any time in the future. Of course that’s apart from any emotional revulsion that the court might feel. That would provide us with all we need to know about what an appropriate sentence should be.

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October 31, 2008

Christina Garcia

She did not stab at him, she had a note that had been going in between them an arguement, in the midst of him grabbing one hand she tried to pull it off with the other in a quick manner and he got a pen mark on his hand. Look, I firmly believe Tori was a victim of a terrible violent crime, but NOBODY will ever convince me that Jake the Smake was a victim, he beat the sh*t out of her, and also for the record the woman in the video was his drunk grandma that today doesn’t even remember being on the news. Jake has thrown a cement block at my 7 year old when she was 5, in our yard I called the police but Mercades beggeed me to not press charges because his dad came and picked him up and promised he was taking him to seek help, I could go round and round about this kid, but like someone said lets wait until the trial, so you guys can see everything.

ABOUT THE BOOK: I would never write a book about the poor victim, for her to have to relive the nightmare. I am however writing about our tragedy, and its my right. I start on the day that I recieved the phone about them arresting her, if that tells you anything. First and formost I will pay off my debt that I have enherited due to Grady Judd’s big mouth and lies. Then I will try and get Mercades back on track with the organization I was speaking of before. And yes, I was thinking about doing something for the victim, I have thought about that since the day I filed suit against the Sheriff. But not because people think that’s what I should do, I wish it hadn’t been brought up to be honest, but because its the right thing to do, I personally am not responsible for her getting beat up, the people who should be coughing up money for medical bills are the parents of the teens who hit her. But I felt a bond between her and I when we talked, I kind of saw myself in her…

May I share a story with my fellow aquaintences on here? Back when I was a teen one night in that very same house a knock came upon the door, I had a friend spending the night..Michelle, I said who is it?? ( my father taught me to never open the door to a stranger) it was an ex boyfriend that I thought was still my friend, I opened the door, and he followed me into the kitchen where Michelle and I were sitting. He left the door open, I was like close the door. As soon as I said that, in came 3 big ass girls ones name was Rooster ( nick name) and my ex had been welding and could see but not real well ( any welders know what I’m talking about) the girls just began to jump me, the ex was laughing but at the same time complaining that he couldn’t see it too well. I called the police after they left, and honestly I wasn’t nearly tore up as Tori, but I was humiliated, when we went to court my friend was too scared to testify I lost the case, and then to top it off..?? The dam State Attorney asked me out on a dam date! I kid you not, I was only 14!!!! Polk County is so corrupted it makes my stomach turn.

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October 31, 2008

Christina Garcia

Another thing, I want everyone on here to know that when and if I win my case against the SHeriff I will be smiling and maybe even have something to say to or about him, but my smile will never be against Tori, Never. And for the record my kid did have remorse, did you guys see her in court? Biting her lip?? That is from nervous stress, she wasn’t laughing. Nor was she laughing when she was detained. I can only speak for Mercades and Kayla ( which was crying so hard I thought she was going to have a nervous breakdown) these 2 had remorse.

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October 31, 2008

GregS.

If you want to see if a fighter has remorse, just look into their eyes. When Hardcastle is attacking Victoria, and Victoria is pleading with her to stop and let her leave, do you see any remorse, or empathy at all in her eyes?

Now, I could be wrong, but Hardcastle hasn’t shown any remorse at all. Not during or after the fact. In the video she’s beating on a victim who isn’t defending herself for whatever reason, and basically has the victim in a corner crying, and is hitting the victim telling the victim to fight back.

Sure it’s possible she could have some remorse but I haven’t seen any at all from her. If anyone can find a statement where she attempts to apologize or just admits to being wrong that would be a start, but she doesn’t seem to care recognize what shes done or the harm its caused the victim.

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October 31, 2008

GregS.

The evidence here is pretty damning against Hardcastle. It seems Hardcastle was the ringleader.

“Lindsay tries to leave, but she’s confronted by Hardcastle near the front door, Murphy said. The beating continued in the living room.

Hardcastle was trying to provoke others to hit Lindsay, Hassell said.” http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun/25/videotape…

Luckily for Tori, they weren’t all as ruthless as Hardcastle, otherwise it could have been much much worse. They didn’t all take Hardcastles orders, thats why the situation didn’t end up much worse. What if they all had the mentality of Hardcastle and were to take orders?

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October 31, 2008

Christina Garcia

Wow, if you think I was saying I thought BH has remorse, either you misunderstood or I wrote something wrong here…I was only speaking for Mercades oh and Kayla cause she was there too

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October 31, 2008

GregS.

Christina no thats not what I thought you were saying. You are saying your daughter had remorse and is not the ring leader. In fact your daughter gave vague warnings to Tori.

Kayla however claims that BH was the one giving orders, which means BH is was ring leader. Kayla also claims that BH was trying to get everyone to beat on the victim.

I don’t know Mercades role, but nothing in the video or in the witness statements indicates she was the ring leader. I don’t know why everyone insists she was when she’s not giving any orders or doing any hitting.

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October 31, 2008

Christina Garcia

And not only Kayla, but Tori’s diary she wrote in the hospital said BH and then ringleader right beside it. This is why I am angry, the sheriff had this evidence but instead of taking the time to really investigate he shot his mouth off just to sensualize the public, and everybody will say Yeah Grady Judd is the greatest!

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October 31, 2008

Didacticus

BTW, the TBO article is misleading: Kayla said in her deposition explicitly that she did NOT notice Brittini trying to provoke anyone into hitting Tori except Kayla herself.

Journalists sometimes do not get things quite right, surprise surprise.

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October 31, 2008

Christina Garcia

Did you listen to Kayla’s Deposition where the detective or whoever acually tried to trick Kayla into saying that Mercades was the one telling everyone to lie and get thier stories straight?? But he didn’t win, she was honest and said no, April!

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October 31, 2008

Didacticus

The prosecutor did NOT try to trick Kayla into anything he was simply trying to follow what Kayla was saying. Not always easy, in part because Kayla herself occasionally mixed up the names of the girls (Tori included) and often expressed herself poorly or ambiguously.

Although the prosecutor talked to Kayla like to a 6-year-old, the idea that he would try to “TRICK” her into saying (and repeating during the trial?!?) something blatantly incorrect is highly implausible.

What the prosecutor did try is to LEAD Kayla into agreeing that the beating was happening with the IMPLICIT approval from Mercades. By LEADING I mean he asked Kayla several questions progressing toward that conclusion. This backfired badly for him, however, because, at the final step of his reasoning, Kayla immediately pointed out that Hardcastle is the type of a person who will do the OPPOSITE of what you tell her to do. In other words Mercades could not count on being able to control Hardcastle even when Hardactle was a guest in Mercades’s home.

P.S. That is not to say that it excuses in any way the failure of Mercades to stop the beating — that was profoundly WRONG (although NOT criminal per Florida statutes) and the fact that she was home makes it even more so.

It does, however, lend plausibility to Mercades being too much of a COWARD to directly confront Hardcastle. And note that Mercades was also evidently uneasy about confronting Tori alone and telling her she must leave — it was apparently Hardcastle who did so (and who sent the confrontational text message), only to have Mercades cave in after Tori’s ride intervened. Mercades probably felt PSYCHOLOGICALLY (rather than physically) intimidated by both Hardcastle and Tori — which is how she ended up unwittingly setting up a disaster.

Again, this is NOT an excuse for her inaction, it just means that, together with other evidence, it is not only possible, but outright probable, that Mercades never wished for any kind of violence to take place at her home that night.

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November 1, 2008

Christina Garcia

You and I are clearly listening to a different tape. The tape I listen to was clear kayla said April Called and he says ” and that was Mercades right?” Please if you think this wasn’t the agenda pinning Mercades’ face to everything you have been tricked. I know maybe for someone who doesn’t live here may not understand how a county can be corrupt, and if a person from here says its not, you can bet that person is part of the corruption. I also seen them leading the witnesses as well. And nobody here said Mercades was free from guilt, just because she didn’t hit her. I have said many times that she acted in a cowardly act, but I refuse to listen to people that think she should be hung or even be sentenced equally as the 2 that hit her. My daughter needs to stop being the poster child of this horrific event in the public. Your story about the car ride is so off that I will not even give an opinion. I don’t know how you break Mercades down so easily and then say ” this is NOT an excuse for her inaction, it just means that, together with other evidence, it is not only possible, but outright probable, that Mercades never wished for any kind of violence to take place at her home that night.” Like you were defending yourself for pleading her case or something…maybe I’m wrong but to me your comments were mostly anti-Mercades throw the book and sword at her.

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November 1, 2008

Didacticus

Christina, you misread and misinterpreted what I wrote.

My point is that trying to “trick” Kayla into substituting Mercades for April at that point would be silly and pointless.

Kayla and Mercades already wrote nearly identical statements that said April and the other girls will lie. And Kayla was WITH Mercades when April called and it was Kayla WITH Mercades who decided not to lie for April.

Under these circumstances, trying to “trick” Kayla into saying Mercades instead of April would be about as stupid and useless as trying to trick her into saying the Earth is flat.

Depositions are conversations and as in all conversations, there are misunderstandings — it’s that simple.

You treat the prosecutor the way the media and people treat the parents of the accused teens — everything they say or do is taken out of context and given the most evil interpretation possible, no matter how implausible or downright silly.

It would be more beneficial for you to pay closer attention to what the prosecutor clearly DID try to do. He applied a sophisticated technique of LEADING a kid — a 16-year-old girl facing life in prison and death threats, scared and eager to please the prosecutor — to agree with him that Mercades was implicitly approving the beating by failing to speak up against it.

Now *that* bordered on sinister and had Kayla succumbed to the technique and said something she did not truly believe, it would have done a lot of damage because, unlike easily disproved factual information (who called whom), this is the realm of beliefs.

If the prosecutor could induce some of the girls to say they felt Mercades approved the beating by being the host and yet not saying anything against it, he would have a chance to convict Mercades in court for abetting the beating.

Thanks to Kayla, that line of attack against Mercades is now unlikely, but it is not entirely off the horizon.

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November 1, 2008

Christina Garcia

Oh, my attention is right where in needs to be, you can believe that. you say it would be stupid and silly, and my point is this they are stupid and being ran by a very ignorant and dangerous man. Vince has been put in a very uncomfortable sitaution thanks to the Sheriff…they have no evidence against Mercades for what she is charged with but yet he can’t just drop the charges because the public would be outraged after what Grady had brain washed them into thinking. I honestly feel bad for Vince and the position he is in. Mercades and I stick to the fact that she must be sentenced in some way for her part in the sitaution, as her mom I agree she needs something, but my reasons are much different than yours, but the outcome will be the same. As far as Kayla, I am so proud of her for not being tricked into saying Mercades, because it just wasn’t true. The sheriff stated Mercades called the victim, but yet the victim’s statement clearly says she called Mercades, and Mercades said she couldn’t talk then when she called back BH answered her phone, and then the txts started. I don’t want to move into anymore negative talk. I am pro Tori, I only want the truth to come out, and its very hard for a 16 year beating victim to stand tall and go against a BIG man like Grady Judd to tell the truth.

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November 1, 2008

Christina Garcia

And PS…if harm is brought upon myself or my family no that he and I are at very negative odds. There have so many death cover ups here and false imprisonment for standing someone’s ground its not even funny! This group is so strong, please keep us in your prayers, I acually might have to move. I acually have nightmares about Judd coming in the house while I’m bathng ( thats when I’m most vonurable not seeing the doors) and him saying his famous line ” Quite frankly…and then I’m here to kill you” I mean I am a strong woman, but just think about this, if an angered Sheriff came to your house to hurt you, who the heck would you call??

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November 1, 2008

GregS

why are they protecting Hardcastle?

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November 1, 2008

GregS.

Christina, Mercades agrees that what she did was wrong and wants to accept a sentence????

And about the death threats, that stuff is wrong. I don’t even wish death upon the girls who physically beat Victoria, afterall they didn’t kill her so the people threatening to kill them are just plain wrong.

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November 1, 2008

Christina Garcia

Mercades has never said ” Hey, I should be set free, and not get a thing” I angers me that she is not allowed to make a statment when The Sheriff doesn’t know how to shut his pie hole” She is very disturbed thinking what if I would’ve just tried to get up and get in the middle, what I am fighting for is the fact that she should have never had the charges she has..Deputy Torez told her and Kayla to fill out the afdavits and they were merely witnesses to the crime. Thats when the Sheriff stepped in and everything went to hell in a hand basket.

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November 1, 2008

Christina Garcia

Everytime I read ” I didn’t know you could be sued for the truth” it saddens me, you have no idea what a web of lies he weaves….

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November 1, 2008

gompertz

Everywhere you look when you google this case you see untruth passing for truth. TBO ran a story about the lawsuit on July 21 with a picture of Mercades and her mom. Most of the comments were disgusting, and a common theme was, “What, she beat up the victim and now she’s suing?” No one corrected that misconception and now it’s out there having gained a life of its own. That’s why it’s so important to keep up these discussions. Truth is stronger than lies and will win in the end if you keep fighting for it. As I read over the comments I found something even more disturbing by far than how hateful they were. A few drew attention to something in the photo: “The guy in the background is checking out the teenager.” and “He is trying to burn a hole in the 17-year-olds jeans..” I don’t know who that man in the picture is, but it reminded me of the kind of threat that awaits girls, and also boys, when they are put behind bars.

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November 1, 2008

Didacticus

Regarding the reply by GregS to my post:

You (and others) clearly implied that the 14-year-old April must be sent to ADULT PRISON.

I explained that horrendous abuse and extreme dangers are inevitable for children in such places.

If that means nothing to you, then indeed nothing I can say could change your mind.

Children in Florida’s adult jails and prisons face inevitable physical, sexual, psychological and mental abuse. They have suffered grievous injuries, they have been raped and murdered. The chances of this happening inevitably sky-rocket when children are sent to adult jails and prisons and treated like adults, not kids.

If all the abuse and dangers mean nothing to you, there is nothing more we can say to each other.

To me, there is no imaginable justification for exposing children to such terrible abuse and extreme dangers.

Inmates (and guards) who like to physically abuse and sexually exploit children LOVE judges and prosecutors who send children to adult jails and prisons — it makes the stay of these predators much more pleasant.

Saying that society has to make an example of the 14-year-old April does NOT justify endangering her so profoundly.

Again, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement. There is NO excuse for abetting child abuse, NO excuse for abetting child rape. NONE.

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November 1, 2008

GregS

Lots of teenagers who commit violent offense end up in adult prison. If a group of teenagers commit armed robbery they usually end up in adult prison. If a group of teenagers sell marijuana or crack they end up in adult prison.

When they get to adult prison they don’t put them in the general population of the prison, they put them in a segregated population of the prison. I know because I know some teenagers who went to adult prison and thats how it is. April and Hardcastle are violent criminals and the tape speaks for itself, both of them belong in adult prison, period, and there is no way to change my mind.

Somebody has to be punished and go to prison, it simply must be done, because violent people belong behind bars.

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November 1, 2008

GregS

Didacticus “Saying that society has to make an example of the 14-year-old April does NOT justify endangering her so profoundly. Again, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement. There is NO excuse for abetting child abuse, NO excuse for abetting child rape. NONE.”

Stop being a sap. I’m showing Hardcastle and April as much empathy and compassion as they showed their victim. You are acting like these girls are personally related to you, like these girls are the victim. What about Tori?

Since you’ve posted here, you’ve been attacking Victoria and defending all the suspects. You want to let the suspects get away with it so you can fee better, regardless of the consequences it could have on society.
I said all along, I’m not emotionally attached to any of these girls, I want what is best for society, and it’s clearly best for society that we crack down harshly on this sort of violence, there is no place for it in our society, and frankly it’s people like you who are promoting bullying and violence by acting as the enabler.

When you let the bully get away with it, it promotes bullying, and bullying leads to extreme violence like school shootings, thats why the situation is as bad as it is. The main reason these girls have to go to prison is for their own safety, they’d be safer in prison than on the streets. They are already receiving death threats, and if they just get a slap on the wrist do you think society is collectiely going tojust forget about this?

It will encourage more people to do what they did, and it will also encourage people to take the law in their own hands. Justice has to work in this case.

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November 1, 2008

GregS

I’m sorry if I was a bit rude Didacticus, but appeals to compassion just isn’t going to work on me. I’m not the one.

I believe in right and wrong.
I believe in reward and punishment.
I believe in reason, not emotion.

It’s clear that the logical punishment must be prison time.
It’s not about how you, or I, or society feels.
It’s about justice, and behavior modification.

The only way to modify violent behavior is by dishing out consistent punishment to those who adopt incorrect behavior. No exceptions for any emotional reason. What is right is what ends the behavior we are trying to end, and putting these two girls in adult prison will gurantee that there will never be another Victoria, it will guarantee that this never happens again by giving other thugs who are watching this a strong deterrent which will say that sociey is no longer going to accept violence of this sort.

You want to put an end to violence? stop blaming guns, stop blaming violent video games, stop blaming violent movies, blame the behavior itself and punish the behavior.

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November 1, 2008

Didacticus

In Florida, children have often been kept with the general inmate population in adult jails and prisons. And for at least a decade, they have been getting maimed, raped, and murdered.

You say I’m being a sap for caring if 14-year-old April gets abused or raped in prison, and you imply she does not deserve such consideration because of what she did to the victim.

The beating that April is seen delivering on the video is no worse than hundreds of beatings delivered every day by kids. It pales in comparison to what Hardcastle is seen doing and that in turn is still only a MISDEMEANOR battery and pales in comparison to hundreds of beatings every year committed by kids.

April was not trying to maim or murder Tori, or even to injure her in fact April clearly pulled most of her punches and they were far less forceful and dangerous than they could have been (and if you disagree you evidently know NOTHING about that kind of violence, just as you evidently know NOTHING about abuse of children in Florida’s jails and prisons).

To imply that, as a consequence of her offense, the 14-year-old April somehow deserves no concern about getting maimed or raped is to reveal a total lack of proportion and humanity.

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November 1, 2008

Didacticus

Greg, you need not worry about being rude, and I will ignore your ad hoc attacks. What I can NOT ignore is when you make up blatantly false accusations.

I have NOT been attacking the victim here. In fact in my 2nd posting here I pleaded with Christina not to conclude that Tori was dishonest in her reports of the beating and instead give her the benefit of doubt.

And I NEVER said or indicated in any way that I’m against punishing April (not to mention Hardcastle) or any other girl who in any way participated in the battery.

If you keep on making up such false accusations, I may have to just give up on posting here because it gets to be a bloody waste of time having to explain that no I did not say this and not I do not think that.

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November 1, 2008

Amyv

Christina – I agree with you on two facts. One – I don’t believe Mercades was the ring leader. Two – I do not believe any of these girls should get death threats.

However, I find you statement about false imprisonment a little confusing. Are you talking about Mercades? The false imprisonment I saw was on the tape and that was against Victoria.
Also, with all of the horrible things you experienced in Polk county, why would you want to raise your children their? I would have gotten out.

I do believe all of the girls should have been charged with false imprisonment. Victoria was trying to leave that house she was blocked at the bedrooom door and the front door was locked and she was not permitted to leave. Although, Brittini Hardcastle was blocking the door, all girls their were accessories to this fact.
She was held against her will. Unfortunately, for your daughter (or perhaps more for your mother) this took place at her home. So they are all to be held accountable for this.

Also, Viictoria stated that she told Brittini Hardcastle she did not want a ride and Brittini forced her into the car. Correct if I am wrong but was it not your daughter who was driving the car. Hence the kidnapping charge.

It seems like your daughter and Brittini were good friends before this incident since it is stated Brittini delivered the valentines gift to the ex-boyfriend for Mercades. If Mercades was scared of her why was she hanging around her?
Also, the statement “don’t hit the shelf” does not show sympathy for Victoria or fear of Brittini. That was your daughter’s voice was it not?

Once again the trial for the charges with the ex-boyfriend will shed more light on that situation. However, he is the one that found it necessary to go to school officials because of threats made by Mercades. It does not matter if she actually did have the gang of boys set up to beat him, she made the threat. Correct me if I am wrong.
And, if the pen did slip, your daughter just seems to have people out to get her all over the place.

As for Kayla she did hit Victoria. If you listen to her statement to the prosecutor side by side with the tape her statements do not add up. She got right in the middle of Victoria and screamed and yelled at her in between Brittini hitting her. Very angry at Victoria. Seemed to be a big issue with her over a boy. She showed absolutely no fear of Brittini at all. But, she sure was screaming and cussing up a storm right in Victorias face. I believe this was towards the end of the tape after they have taken turns beating Victoria. So her sweet, innocent, little girl act now does not match up at all with the bully we saw on the tape. And the tape doesn’t lie. Sorry you can’t blame the tape on that.

Yes, your daughter and Kayla said they would not lie to the police. Since they knew it was on tape, what would have been the point.

We all agree Brittini Hardcastle was the most violent of all the girls. However, why do we analyze the way April was hitting Victoria. She hit her several times and on more than one occassion. So I do believe she was intending to harm her. Maybe she just doesn’t throw a punch as well as B.H. Even though April is only 14 she also showed a tremendous amount of violence.

I will state again this girls do not deserve life in prison, nor do they deserve death threats. But, they do deserve harsh punishment. They were all there. Victoria was not able to leave. She was beaten. Bottom line. Lets quit with blaming the world instead of the girls who commited the crime.

I don’t care that you totally disagree with me. You don’t deserve to make any money off a book and frankly I can’t see many people buying when you are trying to portray yourself as a victim. Especially, since the only one that has moved out of town is the victim.

Get over yourself. Stop justifying certain aspects of your daughters behavior. Everyone can not be lying. Your daughter has seem real emotional problems? Get mad if you want but, is she living with you now?

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November 1, 2008

GregS.01

Didacticus

A. If she was a boy you wouldn’t care. Many boys are in adult prison for non violent offenses like selling drugs, and I don’t see you protesting against the war on drugs. If rape is going on in prisons, protest that, but it has nothing to do with this case and you are only bringing it up in hope of winning sympathy for the poor violent criminal. I’m sorry but I don’t have any sympathy, and even if somehow I did, if that girl does not change her behavior she’s going to be killed on the streets of florida and probably wont live to see age 20. It’s her mentality, it’s her lifestyle, it’s her behavior, and it doesn’t matter where she is, in prison or released into the real world, if her behavior does not change them eventually someones going to change it through violence.

How many more school shootings do you want? How many kids have to die? Have you looked at the end result of allowing kis to beat on each other like that? It CREATES gang violence. It starts with some girl like that beating up people like Victoria, then they beat up the person who decides to go get a gun and use it, and you end up with dead teenagers. And your response is to ban the guns, ban the video games, ban the movies, blame the music, blame myspace, blame youtube, but none of that is going to work because like I said before, bullying conditions non violent individuals to become violent individuals. It’s not the video games, it’s not the music that teaches kids to carry guns around and shoot people, it’s being trapped in a room and jumped and having it uploaded to youtube, thats what causes kids to carry weapons and guns around, thats what causes an individual to become deadly. But I guess you don’t see the cause and effect here.

April was not trying to maim or murder Tori, or even to injure her in fact April clearly pulled most of her punches and they were far less forceful and dangerous than they could have been (and if you disagree you evidently know NOTHING about that kind of violence, just as you evidently know NOTHING about abuse of children in Florida&rsquos jails and prisons).

Are you kidding? Did we see the same video? Isn’t April the one who starts beating Tori while the girl in the backround is yelling elmer? That hit was so hard I could hear the impact on camera, and you say she wasnt punching with all her might? It looked to me like both April and Hardcastle were hitting Tori with all their might. I did not see any holding back in the video, I don’t know if you watched the full video.

And just because they didn’t kill or maim Tori it does not excuse what they did. You think Tori is the only girl they did this too? You think this kind of abuse has no impact on people psychologically? The abused Tori, then they uploaded it to YouTube, yet you are more concerned about protecting them from being abused in prison? So you’d rather let them continue to get away with abusing people outside of the prison? Tori will never be the same after this, I hope we can both agree on that, and because of that they need to face the consequences.

To imply that, as a consequence of her offense, the 14-year-old April somehow deserves no concern about getting maimed or raped is to reveal a total lack of proportion and humanity.

B. You show absolutely no concern for the victim who is being abused in the video for the entire world to see. You are so busy trying to protect the abusers from being abused that you don’t care if justice is served or not. It’s completely up to you if you want to post here or not, it’s also completely up to you if you want to take the focus your concern on the welfare of the victim or the abuser, or both. But you seem to be focused on minimizing what April and Hardcastle did on tape, to protect these girls from what COULD or MIGHT happen to them in prison. And through all of this you don’t seem to be concerned at what might happen to these girls OUTSIDE of prison if their behavior does not change. Do you really think that people in their community are going to let them continue bullying people and beating them up like that?

If you are worried about whos going to protect them in prison, why aren’t you worried about whos going to protect them outside of the prison? If they get let off with no prison time, they are going to have to change their names and go into hiding. Not only that but it’s going to inspire others to do even worse stuff on camera because they’ll think that it’s just going to be a slap on the wrist, I don’t know if you have a son or daughter but do you want your son or daughter to be the next one beat up and uploaded to youtube? Thats what is at stake here.

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November 1, 2008

GregS

Amyv I’m sure Christina wants to get out of Polk County but I don’t think she can be blamed for growing up and raising kids in a bad neighborhood.

I think in general, a lot of people just don’t understand whats at state in this case. This isn’t ordinary bullying, this is bullying 2.0, it’s to the point now where it’s so bad that it will psychologically destroy people. It’s one thing to beat a person up and the person can grow up, it’s not like it’s on tape and watched by the internet forever.

Victoria is going to have to live with the fact that she was beat up on tape. The people who get abused in prison or in other environments are not abused on tape and it’s not uploaded to the internet.Society has to put a stop to this before people start killing each other over this. Thats the point I’m trying to make.

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November 1, 2008

Didacticus

Greg, you keep on making up blatantly FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

Saying “If she was a boy you wouldn&rsquot care” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

Saying “And your response is to ban the guns, ban the video games, ban the movies, blame the music, blame myspace, blame youtube” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

Saying “So you&rsquod rather let them continue to get away with abusing people outside of the prison?” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

Saying “you don&rsquot care if justice is served or not” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

And so on, there are other FANTASIES in your post that have nothing to do with reality. You created an IMAGINARY OPPONENT. I do not see any point in arguing with FANTASIES.

And given that you pretty much state that you do not care if the 14-year-old April gets maimed or raped, I do not want to communicate with you anyway.

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November 1, 2008

gompertz

I’d like to interject a few brief remarks of my own. I certainly agree that emotion could lead us astray here. For instance, if a judge showed excessive leniency because he is moved by images of parents sobbing uncontrollably while their children are dragged away in chains, then he would be guilty of sentimentality. On the other hand, couldn’t emotion make us err in the other direction? This very high-profile case causes such visceral reactions, that a substantial percentage of the population have called for life imprisonment or even the death penalty. I think that would be excessive by far. Now, it may be suggested that society would be better served to err on the side of excessive severity rather than the opposite, perhaps following the Machiavellian dictum that it is better for a ruler to be feared than loved. But such abstract notions miss the point that the call for brutal punishment arises from emotions that are as dangerous as the sentimentality that leads to leniency. Both extremes are a sign of weakness. Yielding to calls for excessively harsh punishment is surrender to mob rule, and detrimental to society because it too comes from emotion and not reason. So what do I think a reasonable sentence might be for someone like BH? How does seven years sound? Or maybe ten years with possibility of parole after five, if the judge thinks she could be rehabilitated. I’m just guessing, because I don’t know what the standards are, and I really hope there are standards in place. I believe a rational approach to punishment would demand that there is some uniformity of standards in sentencing. One problem is that there does not seem to be any predictability in how particular crimes are punished. Sometimes an act of violence leads to harsh punishment, sometimes a similar act leads to probation. Why the disparities? Sometimes it seems you could dispense with judge and jury and roll the dice. Now, if we can agree that someone convicted of a crime must face a punishment that is at least somewhat uniform, predictable and fair, then can we agree that once the sentence has been pronounced, the prisoner should have the expectation that the sentence will be carried out within the limits of the established guidelines? In other words, you go to prison, you pay for your crimes by being deprived of your liberty, and possibly suffer certain other inconveniences like being forced to work on a chain gang. But I do not believe the goals of society are served by subjecting prisoners to the additional punishment of being beaten and raped. Whether that is more common in Florida than elsewhere, I can’t say, it should not happen. It brutalizes those who endure it and those who inflict it. We know that prison rape is a fact of life, and some (Gore Vidal comes to mind) suggest that this sordid act is used by prison authorities as a form of additional punishment for prisoners they don’t like. I wonder, maybe we could say that because prison rape is so widespread, and because prisoners can expect it, it has been made reasonable by its predictability. Somewhere in that reasoning there must be a flaw but I’m much too tired to find it. So let me conclude for tonight by making an observation on the subject of showing concern for the victim. Those who know Victoria personally, family and friends, can express their concern for her in ways that are not open to those for whom she remains an abstraction. If I were wealthy I might offer to provide financial assistance. Some have made small donations which I’m sure do little to ease the tremendous financial burden the family bears. Some have sent letters and e-mails offering advice and encouragement. Other than there isn’t anything well-intentioned strangers can do, is there? When you spoke before about concern for the victim, I interpreted that to mean advocating appropriate punishment for her attackers. I’m not disagreeing, just wondering if that’s what you meant.

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November 1, 2008

gompertz

BTW just noticed another post by Didacticus above mine, which wasn’t there when I started writing. I don’t think anything in his post would alter anything I said in mine, just for the record.

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November 2, 2008

GregS

gompertz I’m not one of the people who thinks any of these girls should get life in prison or the death penalty.

I just don’t think they should be getting probation, or community service, or some light sentence just because of sympathy. Whatever the punishment is for the crime, they should receive it. No exceptions.

I’ve never advocated that I want them to be raped in prison, or outside of prison, but to not give them a fair and harsh sentence because of what could happen to them in prison, this could apply to all sorts of criminals if we were to decide on sentencing in this way.

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November 2, 2008

gompertz

Greg, since I do read your posts, and all the posts, carefully, I’m well aware that you did not advocate any of these things. Still, one finds it necessary to occasionally issue disclaimers. There are people who accuse me of turning my back on the victim because I have come to the conclusion that some, at least, of the accused have been treated unfairly by the Sheriff and the media. To me that does not seem to be logical. As for the statistics on treatment of juveniles in Florida that deals with questions of fact for which I can give no information. I have read some posts on the Lakeland wire that offer as evidence some truly appalling cases of mistreatment of children in Florida prisons. Most of us do not have time to do the kind of exhaustive investigation that would show that this is prevalent, or the kind of tragic anomaly that calls for intervention by the authorities. Both Amy and I have repeatedly invited someone, anyone to point out authoritative sources, in the form of websites or books, that could confirm these claims. I do think that people behind bars are more vulnerable to mistreatment, in Florida or elsewhere. It’s just the degree of danger that is the question.

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November 2, 2008

Christina Garcia

ok…where do I begin? I am so stressed out about some of the things said, that it would be so much easier for me to walk away and save my energy for other things as I cough over my keyboard…

Didacticus and others that keep bringing Mercades’ name up in your arguements about April and Brittany..please stop. Niether one of them are my kids and quite frankly if they were I’d probably not be going by my name on here either.Just please, if you want to ask me something about Mercades or bash her more, then I will reply even when it hurts me. Thank you

To Amyv:

hmm..I have way too much to say to you, but I won’t waste too much time, because it seems to me maybe you’re either a mad mother of one of the 2 that hit her, or on the State’s team and want to try and dig up garbage here, but there is none. You’ve heard it all ok?
Just for the record I grew up in a very nice nieghborhood, those who are interested I lived at 1211 Brighton Way Lakleand Fl..my father was a builder here well known. Don Nichols you want more check his name for properties in Polk County or better yet his business Donic Inc. I mean hey if digging up my dead father’s name can prove to everyone that we are not and were not scum then go for it ok? But where I did grow up and raise my kids is in a Hillbilly redneck town called Polk County! I want to move, but do you not see my position right now? How am I going to move Kalina and I and just leave Mercades? I couldn’t move before the situation because it takes alot of money and balls to start all over, yeah I know I know ( you’re going to say I do have them right?) well, my mom is here and my dad was here I had to take care of him and his business then pay off the vulchers that were suppose to be family, pay capital gain, and I ended up with a home on an acre ( which I never thought I’d live in) I hate the country, I am a city girl.
Now, about Mercades and your opinion on her charge of false imprisonment, she told Tori not to go in the house 3 times, ( before anyone attacks me I am not saying this is an excuse for her to sit back ok?) then did you happen to hear the voice that said just let her run away? Uh..yeah that was Mercades. Brittany and Mercades were not best friends either..when you were a teen you never had someone you called a friend you were scared of? You don’t know all the details about Jake the Snake and the fact that he handed Brittany a present for Mercades as well. I can unserstand so much the outcry for Victoria I mean went through alot, and I do want to help her in some way, back when I first thought about sueing the sheriff for what he had done to me and my family, I was daydreaming a llittle about how if I had enough money to move away from this hell hole, just give my house to her, I know its not much but she could’ve sold it and did what she wanted with it. Now, don’t mistake that comment for a promise, I mean I don’t know if or what I will get when we get to Federal Court. But that is whats in my heart, alot of times we want to do things that we just can’t do. But I do want to help, but I also need to think about my family as well. Afterall, her scars are not from Mercades, Mercades didn’t set her up like the lovely sheriff stated. And for the record Mercades didn’t have people all over the place out to get her…no ma’am Jake the Snake did not go to officials the teacher sent them both to the office for fighting ( him grabbing her arm as well) The official called me at home. The school principal was shocked Mercades’ name was even involved with such a tradgic story, when they had him on the news did you ever hear him say ” Oh yeah, that Mercades is trouble” nope! The only people the media could scoop up is Jake and his alcoholic mother.
And I need to remind you Mercades turned the tape over if she and Kayla wanted to lie as you imply they didn’t have to turn the tape over to Dep. Torez!!! I know Kayla was a little upset on the tape, but she was probably part of what was said about her on myspace, its not illegal to yell at someone she didn’t hit her. PERIOD! Mercades nor Kayla stood in front of the door, the simply failed to help, do you happen to know the laws on this issue? If you are a lifeguard and see someone drowning and you do nothing you’re liable, if you are a civilian and do nothing although it is extremely immoral not to help it is not against the law. She had no legal responsibilty to jump in between them. With that said, I feel as a mother, her not jumping in was morally incorrect therefore she stands tall knowing she will be sentenced for her cowardness, but not for any violence.
On the blame game you speak of, I don’t blame others…I speak from my heart and my emotions, as we all have seen this can be very bad, but most of the time it is a valued moral! People learn quickly they can believe what I say, I have said my daughter should get something for her inactions, if I was all about the blame game I wouldn’t have apoligized here for misplacing my anger from the Sheriff to Tori. I wish I could tell her myself but I can not speak to her.And I respect that. I hope she really opens up about the pressure I think the sheriff put on her on GMA tomorrow.
About my book: How dare you tell me I am not a victim. You don’t know me, you don’t know about all the late night visits from the sheriff’s office nor how his lies have destroyed myself, my youngest daughter and my family! My book has nothing to do with the beating, only what the Sheriff and his pack of lies have done to me. You try having a deputy tell you in FRONT of your 6 year old ” oh your daughter is a suspect in the beating case so we can’t protect you with these death threats nor write a report..I simply have written a journal if I hadn’t gotten my words and feelings out on paper I may have gone crazy. Plus if anything happens to me, I want proof. So, I plan on sharing my journal that turned into a book with the world, if nobody buys it, then fine.But if they do, I will start an organization as I explained earlier in another post, pay off my expenses that the sheriff caused and send the Lindsay’s something toward thier medical bills, including any counsiling Tori might need, BUT not because I feel Mercades caused harm to her nor for guilt but because I feel from my heart terrible for her. Now, I have to go law down this has drained me. Please excuse any errors ahead of time, this was pretty long

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November 2, 2008

Christina Garcia

if you want to see corruption gregs..you can go to polkcountycorruption.com there are many more. Thanks

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November 2, 2008

gompertz

Christina, thanks for the link. Anyone discussing this case must see this.

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November 3, 2008

Christina Garcia

Well, they must have cancelled her interview on GMA…I personally think its best for both sides.

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November 3, 2008

gompertz

Greg, on re-reading what I wrote yesterday I realize that my last reply to you was so ambiguous my meaning was unclear. So to clarify: I know that you did not approve of things like prison rape or anything like that, that is what I meant. Appropriately hard sentences for brutal crimes, we agree on that. In making your own case for sending some of these girls away you pointed out that juveniles are segregated and there is usually enough supervision to ensure their safety. Like you, I can attest that I know people who went into prison at an early age and did not suffer the more vile forms of abuse. Of course these people (two of whom were childhood friends of mine) emerged only to resume their antisocial activities, and one of them has spent most of his life on Riker’s Island, being released just long enough to commit new felonies and begin a new term. The problem is that once you have a record like that, getting a decent job is difficult if not impossible. So, the young felon is confined to low-paying menial jobs, and his girl friend is crying that he never buys her anything nice. It’s hard to afford a BMW and diamonds on a janitor’s wages, but the crime bosses offer you employment that is, if not respectable, financially rewarding. Understand that I am not weeping for this man. I am just pointing out that, while there seems to be sufficient control within the prison itself, there is no control outside of the prison. It’s just another example of rewarding bad behavior, and rewarding bad behavior is a prevalent characteristic of our society. There are people of good will who complain about the “purposelessness of warehousing prisoners” and believe greater leniency in sentencing will bring out the fundamental decency of criminals. I think that approach is part of the problem. The other alternative, increasing the harshness of sentencing and conducting mass executions, is another easy alternative that does not help. It brutalizes the people who apply it, and yields gratifications that lead to barbarism. So I think there needs to be balance and fairness in sentencing, but that’s the easy part. It mostly depends on judges and juries who simply followed established guidelines for sentencing. As for the question of what is to be done to overhaul society as a whole, that is the more difficult problem.

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November 3, 2008

gompertz

I thought they might cancel the interview, maybe they’ll do it after the election.

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November 3, 2008

Christina Garcia

Don’t you think doing the interview could hurt either side?

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November 3, 2008

gompertz

Christina, I think it all depends on what is discussed in the interview. If they stick to asking how Victoria feels, how she’s getting along, it should be pretty harmless. If they try to lead her into answering questions about specifics of the case, which should be answered at the trial, then it could hurt either side.

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November 3, 2008

GregS

So, the young felon is confined to low-paying menial jobs, and his girl friend is crying that he never buys her anything nice.

And I think that is a fair punishment for violent crime. That punishment is worse than prison. Although I don’t think that punishment will apply to the girls involved.

It&rsquos hard to afford a BMW and diamonds on a janitor&rsquos wages, but the crime bosses offer you employment that is, if not respectable, financially rewarding.

I don’t think drug dealers should be in that situation but if a guy is beating on his wife, or in situations of violence the consequences should be the most severe. I agree with you on the fundamentals that the punishment should fit the crime. In the case where the crime is violent and life changing, the punishment should be just as life changing.

I’m not tough on all crime, I’m tough on violent crime. I’m not a supporter of the war on drugs, I don’t think we should ban them from going to college just because they sold some drugs. I think wife beating is worse than drug dealing. I think physically bullying people is worse than selling drugs to people, because while drugs can be addictive in some situations, the person at least wanted them and had the choice.

I do have a concern that Mercades is being blacklisted even though she’s not violent. But I must admit, I don’t have any sympathy for April or Hardcastle who are clearly violent individuals who deserve whatever punishment they get.

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November 3, 2008

GregS

These violent girls, even if they are blacklisted, they’ll be able to find a husband and probably will end up in a normal life. They might not be able to find a job, but if they can learn to not be violent, then they’ll at least be able to find a man and get married. I don’t predict that April or Hardcastle will be homeless victims.

I do think they are blacklisted however, and I think they are blacklisted because millions of people know their names and face and see their violence on video tape. Would you hire either of them after seeing that tape?

And anytime they go on a job interview, someone is going to send that url/tape to the potential employer.

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November 3, 2008

GregS

gompertz another aspect is, I’m not a criminal, I’m not violent, yet I cannot afford a BMW, a rolex and will have financial problems.

The difference is, I’ve gone to college. But I have to admit, crime pays better than going to college, especially right now while the economy is looking shitty. It shouldn’t be this way, where I can probably make more and faster money selling drugs than any other way.

The problem with society is that theres not enough ways for good people to make fast money. The “bad” people have a near monopoly on fast money. They get to make fast money simply because they are willing to ignore the law.
They sell drugs because they know it can bring fast money directly into their pockets.

I think people who are college graduates, who work hard, are often exploited as suckers, by politicians constantly asking them to sacrifice more and more for less reward, to the military which exploits and spends peoples lives.

What we need is incentive to be good. If an individual is violent I don’t think theres an easy fix to that besides keeping them in prison, but if an individual is non violent and simply breaks the law because they need to make money, I think they ought to be given alternatives to allow them to make the same kinda quick money without having to break the law. This is why I support decriminalization of marijuana at least, and it’s up for debate if we should decriminalize all drugs in general.

If you are a good person and non violent, you should be able to get money easily, and get rich easily, it shouldn’t be this difficult. As for Mercades, I don’t know her personally, but her mother tells us she’s not a bad person. If thats the case then we can work with her, but once again even if she’s not a bad person, her options are still very limited.

So solving the problems of society will be very difficult because most of the people within society don’t even recognize that there are problems. A lot of good people think that being good and being rich are the same thing, but they aren’t the same thing. A lot of rich people are truly bad people, but got rich by being the baddest. Very few rich people are good people, and among those who are good and rich, the vast majority of them had to do “bad” or “illegal” things to get that rich. Whether it meant being dishonest, or backstabbing people, they had to do whatever it takes.

How do you think we can change society so that people can compete to see who is the most good rather than the most wicked? If society is a pyramid, how can we make it so the righteous rise to the top? Any ideas?

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November 3, 2008

Christina Garcia

Gregs:

When you say “even blacklisted”…are you concluding that Mercades is the same as the other 2 girls? If so, where are you coming from?

Also, this just in The interview was taped in NY this morning but will not be shown until next Monday

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November 3, 2008

gompertz

Greg, right now I just want to restrict myself to a few comments. “Would you hire either of them after seeing that tape?” Interesting question. I presume you were referring to BH and AC. Well, if I owned a factory for instance, and I were hiring for assembly line work or custodial duties, I might take the chance, but definitely I wouldn’t hire them to be security guards. It would all depend on reports from parole officers, recommendations from priests or ministers from those churches they attend regularly, things like that. As for seeing the tape, it fills me with revulsion. Still, I would try to be objective. Like most people, I am very much influenced by what is presented visually. We are greatly moved by scenes of graphic violence, even if it is only simulated, as in a movie. So I would set aside my feelings about that visual stimulus, that is, if it is a question of hiring. If it is a question of conviction or sentencing, that is another story. There, the tape is evidence, and it appears to be decisive.

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November 3, 2008

GregS

Christina, I hope Mercades is not, but I’m not really in any position to know. But based on what I’ve seen in peoples comments after seeing the video, it appears like people have individually decided to take action. Someone on YouTube got your phone number and address and posted it up there, and gave people instructions to call you up and tell you how they feel. I think a lot of the threats are due to the fact that they put your information on the internet, violating your privacy.

I have also seen comments from people claiming to be gangster types, talking about what they plan to do to these girls on the streets or in prison, when their people find them.

It’s hard to really know if an individual is on a blacklist because they do that stuff in absolute secrecy. They vote on it in secret during their meetings, in some cases if just one really powerful individual is pissed off at you in a town, that is enough to get blacklisted. The powerful individual could be anyone, but that individual might be in a country club, fraternity, mafia, or a member of a church.

Some of these groups have international/global chapters/sects/etc all over the place so if they blacklist a person it can reach across the globe. It’s the internet age now, so if someone gets blacklisted now, its probably global. They know what these girls look like, the beating is on video on YouTube.

For example, the police have a fraternity. The firemen have a fraternity. And on top of this you have international fraternities like the Skull &amp Bones. You also have religions like Scientology.

If someone is put on a blacklist or blackballed it means every member of the fraternity is told about them, told not to hire them, etc. And then you have the gangs, the mafias, that have their versions of blacklists where if someone is put on their list, all their members and associates are free to hurt the person. You mentioned that crimes are being committed against you, like identity theft and that people have been refusing to hire you, I’m hoping you and your daughter aren’t on some kinda blacklist but this is something only you and your daughter are in a position to know.

I think your problem seems to be localized, I don’t hear people discussing you upstairs on the east coast, so if you are on some sorta blacklist it’s probably a Polk County thing. But if you want to know how bad it was, when Dr. Phil bailed out your daughter, what happened to him? Even Dr. Phil was intimidated and he’s rich. That didn’t stop people from threatening to boycott his show, even he has to deal with consequences.

The international blacklist is really the worst thing you could possible be on, it’s the worst punishment that society can offer. They used to put communists on this list, it was so bad that people who are on it cannot get hired anywhere even when they move, it means when they do move people will spread rumors and lies about them, and it’s all sorts of people involved, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, gang members, police, the media.

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November 3, 2008

Christina Garcia

Well…it seems as though you have been on my youtube site being that you used the word ” mafia” among the others. And we both know who he is..you are right not wanting to get to involved because we are in a dangerous position. And you know I don’t want to become combative with this person and those people being that the case was violent within itself, but I will say this I felt the need that I had to buy a gun : ( I hate guns, I have also called a family member in Conn. that is organized ( The Bavelacos) I only wanted to prove my daughter’s side of things, but if he comes or any of his goons I am ready. I am so over this man thinking he is God.

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November 3, 2008

Amyv

Christina – I most certainly am not the mother of one of these girls that hit Victoria. I would not be blogging on the internet, I would be hanging my head in shame.

I am the mother of a 16 year old daughter. I have discussed this incident with her and many of her friends. These girls are not perfect angels and are not immune to the teenage violence that is going on throughout our country. However, even the toughest of these girls gives her opinion on this subject. She said they went way over the top. And she can not imagine ever doing anything so cruel.

I also am not part of the “great conspiracy going on in polk county” against you. Of course we can all agree that the death threats against your family, daughter and especially your mother are totally unacceptable. These types of people further encourage violence. And, these threats should not be taken lightly.

Yes, your daughter did warn Victoria not to go into the house. But, did she tell Victoria their were additional girls in the home? Or was it just because Brittini Hardcastle was so angry. Your daughter herself, according to witness was screaming at Victoria. So their were an awful lot of girls angry with the victim.

You say you would donate money to Victoria, not because your daughter caused her any harm, but because of the violent acts against her. Your daughter did cause her harm. Emotional harm. Victoria stated on the tape “Mercades you are supposed to be my friend.” Betrayal by a friend can be just as hurtful physical violence. Sometimes even more so.

Also, your daughter saying “Don’t hit the shelf’” is a very disturbing statement. She was brave enough with Brittini to say that. It showed more concern for knick knacks than the well being of her friend.

I have repeatedly stated that none of these girls deserve life in prison. And, I think everyone on this post has enough sense to know that, that is not going to happen. I also state that your daughter was not what I would consider the ring leader. But, you yourself have agreed that Mercades deserves punishment for this crime. As for the other case with the ex-boyfriend, more information will be made available when that trial begins. i.e. any reports he may have filed at school, etc. You do not like criticism against yourself, but freely call his mother a drunk.

I as a mother would love and stand beside my daughter if she were involved in an incident like this. That is what a mothers love is unconditional. However, I have told her, she would have to face the consequences of such violent actions. I have also told her that I would be beyond ashamed of her.

As for writing the book, that is obviously your choice. In my opinion a bad one, but this is America. I would in no way want to call anymore attention to myself or especially my daughter.

Also, rape and beatings in prison are unacceptable and country wide. This I blame on not enough proper supervision. Low funding for prisons. Stop paying for cable and hire more correction officers.

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November 4, 2008

Christina Garcia

Because we disagree on so much, I am going to choose not to reply to everything you said, and only because my post would be redundant for the fact of well one example…I have posted that my father’s ashes were in that shelf but you still claim it was over nick nack which shows you haven’t paid real attention to my posts, and you have made your mind up that Mercades is a villan and caused the harm to Tori, and there is nothing I can do to change your mind, the Sheriff has tainted your judgement along with alot of others. I am sorry if that upsets you, I really am not angry and I dm not trying to affend you in any way. As always thank you for your opinions.

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November 4, 2008

Amyv

Christinia – The sheriff did not taint my opinion. The tape did. I am sorry for what this case has done to everyone.

It is just sad all the way around. Teenagers now a days are growing up in a far to violent society.
We a adults need to find ways to stop this violence.

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November 4, 2008

Christina Garcia

I don’t know how the video could taint you about my kid but ok…I really have no more strength to argue about this : *( my heart has really been affected by all the stress. I went to the doctor yesterday, he told me to stay away from stress lol, and then wanted to give me pills : ( I said no to the pills, and just smiled when he said no stress. Doctors are too funny sometimes. And do you know what we can do as adults?? Take our darn rights back from the state or government or whoever said we can’t spank our kids, yes I know probably many people on here don’t believe in it, but hey, we are living in a society that didn’t believe in spanking, and guess what guys?? Look at what we have in return? I love both of my children, but at times you have to be able to discipline them beyond the famous ” no, no” I don’t agree with voilence doesn’t fix violence crap either, because I don’t believe spanking in the correct way is violent. My father spanked my ass, I remember running around the house from him with the belt in his hand, and he hated doing it. But you know something I had more respect for him then I did my mother ( which did nothing to me) and another thing…when I needed advise in school, guess who I went to. That’s right my daddy. ( RIP) I love him. I am sorry but I don’t feel Mercades caused her harm, I will not defend anyone else’s actions in the situation because it was awful, but Mercades warned Tori that they were in there, plus if you read the statement from the victim, Brittany was outside yelling at Tori just like you said, then Tori went in the house removed her things from the residence went outside to Christine Dorsette’s car, and even after hearing all that yeling that you mentioned and the warningS from Mercades she chose to go back in the house. What happened was wrong, but Mercades did not cause it nor was she the Ringleader. She failed as a human Only by not jumoing in the middle.

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November 4, 2008

Christina Garcia

And hey, Mercades is ready for her sentence, so I really don’t feel it is appropriate for you to continue to critasize (ms) my daughter, why don’t you take a break from her and move onto the ones who acually did the hitting?

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November 4, 2008

gompertz

Well, since I do have a few minutes I would like to reminisce about my own childhood and relate that to the situation of today’s kids. My father was not there and my mother worked full-time to pay the bills. So I had little parental supervision. But the way things were back in the 1950’s, I was never lacking for guidance. Strolling down the street, my friends and I could always count on the ever-present police car to pull up and check to see that we were not up to anything. In the city projects, maintenance men watched to make sure we stayed out of trouble, and don’t even think of stepping on the grass. Adults you didn’t even know would never hesitate to admonish us if we got boisterous. And the schools! Priests and nuns were always wielding the wooden sticks, bringing a painful reminder of the torment that awaited those who did not have the Fear of God in their hearts. Need I say that things aren’t like that any more? Back then, it was the whole community that raised the kids. It was never up to the parents alone. Today that world is gone, maybe forever. That’s why I never bought into the “blame the parents” thing. There are, of course, many parents whose kids become good adults, and they are to be commended. But I also know a lot of parents who try just as hard, and the kids wind up on drugs and in jail. The way society is today, good people are simply not rewarded for their efforts. One more thing, and then I will shut up. I freely admit that I have changed my former negative opinion about Mercades, and her mother. That came from looking at the evidence again. I saw that my earlier negative opinion was largely fueled by the reports I had read. Now if you type in “Mercades Nichols” on Google search, you get all these links with titles like “Mercades Nichols, who beat up Victoria Lindsay” and most of us do know by this time that’s just not true. Yet all those articles, with all their inaccuracies, are still there for all to see. How much of the current negative attitude is a residue left over from reading those reports that we know are not true? So, yes, I realized that if I’m wrong about that, there may be a lot I have been wrong about. What remains certain is that Victoria took a terrible beating and that some of the accused need to pay. What I don’t see is why some people seem to feel that being more kindly disposed toward one of the accused makes me less supportive of the victim. Where’s the logic in that?

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November 4, 2008

GregS

gompertz thats because there isn’t a community anymore. This is due to politicians setting laws which deliberately weakened American families and parents in favor of giving government more and more control over our lives. I grew up in a generation where there was no community at all, the gangs were the only community I remember seeing, and the gang life usually lead to death or prison. So I don’t really know what it’s like to have a community. I’m not even sure it’s possible to have that besides on the internet or in cults in small towns.

The only way to restore community is to support community policing, to support ideas which empower individuals, and promote individualism. But if you look what the politicians offer, they all offer collectivism, where you are supposed to basically give your children to the state, and let the government brainwash your children in school, and then let corporations turn your children into consumer zombies, and there seems to be no recourse.

Reply
November 7, 2008

gompertz

Greg, the deterioration of society is something I witnessed and sometimes I miss the “good old days” when life was simpler and people had values to guide them. Still, there were serpents in that garden of Eden. The Catholic Church was a pillar of traditional values and stability, it is true. Unfortunately it was also a hotbed of religious bigotry, and in that respect things have actually improved as interfaith dialogue is has replaced the former intolerance. So there is hope that a new sense of community can be created.
The community that I saw as a child was not some primordial “state of nature” but was itself the product of centuries of social evolution and required the combined efforts of political thinkers and social scientists over the course of generations. Examples would be Edmund Burke, J.S.Mill and the Founding Fathers of this country, and let us not neglect Karl Marx, who had a lot of good ideas. Democracy and freedom are the product of toil and effort. The preservation of these values and the restoration of Community will be the result of a lot more toil and effort. Without the toil and effort we revert to a “state of nature” that is animalistic and that in no way resembles the utopian dreams of Rousseau and the radical Left of today. IMHO if you want to see what a “state of nature” would be like, take another look (if you can stand it) at the Lakeland beating video. That is how human beings act in their natural state.
So the creation of a new community would involve input from all the social sciences, but especially psychology and also applications of mathematics that did not exist in Marx’s time. I think Marx did the best he could with what he had available, but we must do better. The construction of the society of the future will not be the work of a single individual, it’s just too much for one person, even if that person were a far greater genius than Marx. So there’s our program for the new society, at least in outline: teams of scientists and investigators from many different disciplines working with a common purpose, with the understanding that we can look at the work of the great leaders of the past as a blueprint for future success.

Reply
November 8, 2008

GregS

gomp you make a very good point, perhaps the reason why most of us were disgusted by what we saw in the video is precisely because it was a visual representation of the “state of nature”.
The whole purpose of our legal system, the justification of having government, capitalism, and order, is to prevent the state of nature. Fortunately the state of nature usually does not last very long. Might does make right, and in the video the bigger girls in the bigger group had more might. Alternatively however the state of nature is also represented by the death threats these girls have received, that is also the state of nature and we have to prevent violence and restore order at all costs.

This is why I ultimately narrowed it down to two kinds of people, and this is based on their mentality. You have the civilized people, these people are the ones who understand why it’s important to have laws, and who have been raised and conditioned properly. Then you have the savages, these people don’t respect anyone, they don’t respect their parents, they don’t respect authority, they don’t respect themselves, and through their hard work they work to bring down society, sometimes very deliberately by promoting the very behavior known to destroy society itself.

savages exist in all races, all cultures, all religions, all parts of the world, it’s a mentality. Each one of us has met a person with this mentality. Sometimes we call it the thug mentality, sometimes we call them brutes, because this kind of individual relies on brute force, physical violence, and fear as their only means of getting what they want. Sometimes we call these people bullies, these sorts of individuals are known to adopt violent behavior even against the people who care about them the most, towards their parents, or lashing out and beating their partners up. The majority of our laws in my opinion should exist to modify and regulate the behavior of these sorts of individuals.

But I don’t like the fact that a lot of our laws don’t seem to serve civil society. In fact some laws specifically empower savage society against civil society. This is the problem, empowering savage society only will serve to increase the popularity of savage behavior. A lot of individuals want to reduce the punishment for violent crime, while increasing the punishments for non violent offenders. This to me is only done to protect the most savage individuals while filling the prisons up with individuals who are for the most part civilized, but who perhaps have a lifestyle that many people disagree with politically. For the last time, I’m not tough on all crime, I’m tough on violent crime, and I think society has to be extremely tough on this sort of crime because it’s the only way to prevent society from collapsing. If people are allowed to get away with violence, it promotes violence and empowers savage society through the fact that if theres no punishment, it must not be so bad.

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November 8, 2008

GregS

I think we need rules, and order. I think the focus of the rules and orders should be to protect society against the state of nature. This is why this case in specific is so important, because civil society is at stake. We want a community where our kids can grow up and feel safe right?

I don’t even have kids, but I don’t think any kid should have to grow up in a decaying society that keeps getting worse. If anything, this trial should highlight the problems in society and motivate some people to try and fix them, at the same time the punishments will deter the less civilized among us, so that they think [“I ought to lock her in a room, beat her up and upload it to YouTube, but I don’t want to end up like Hardcastle and April in prison.”]

The only way to give them something to think about, is to make the punishment scary enough that they think twice.

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November 8, 2008

Matteo

To Christina, Greg, and Gompertz, This is what we all want to avoid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud

The state of nature results in kin selection and blood feuds, it’s still a government, but everyone is mobbed up. It’s mob rule basically.

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November 8, 2008

Matteo

Perhaps we should have a state sanctioned corporal punishment and public shaming program?

How about a choice between public beating with a rod or cane and prison?

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November 8, 2008

gompertz

We all seem to agree that the “state of nature” is not a good thing. Civilized values are created by conscious effort rather than found by some return to a primitive state of existence.

Unfortunately the prevailing view these days seems to be that human beings are innately good, and all that is needed is to remove those forces that obstruct this condition of natural goodness. This obstructing force may be identified as capitalism, or as some ethnic or religious group that has usurped power. These views are partially at least traceable to Rousseau, and have spread through Kant and Hegel to Marx and his followers, and influence the radical Left movement of the present day. What makes these views especially dangerous is the intolerance they inspire in their followers. Once you think you have identified the enemy, for example capitalists or communists or Jews or Blacks, or whatever, all that is required is the removal of that enemy, and you have that wonderful “state of natural goodness” which has been obscured by the offending group. This is how you get holocausts and pogroms and witch trials.

In America the damage done by these idealistic views has been less dramatic but still very harmful. Though we haven’t had a Hitler or a Stalin, what we do have is a government that believes that bureaucrats and academics know better than families how to instill proper values in the young. So the laws in place today reflect the beliefs of defunct thinkers like Rousseau, even after these ideas have produced only disaster.

So the first order of business is to oppose these harmful ideas, which have become entrenched in the schools and the government. How we oppose them is to implement rational, scientific methods of regulating society, and that includes a realistic, balanced system of rewards and punishment. Yes, I agree that some forms of corporal punishment must be reinstituted. Caning, for example, seems to work in Singapore, but Singapore is a small place, much easier to control than a country this size. I think the emphasis needs to be on balance. Look at what is happening in Florida, where some serious crimes committed by juveniles back in the early 90’s caused a public clamor for stronger penalties for violent crime committed by juveniles. However, today the penalty has swung to the other side and many juveniles are punished far more harshly than their offense would warrant. So there is much work to be done to maintain balance in the justice system.

The need for balance is highlighted by the custom of vendetta. What if justice is NOT done in this Lakeland case? It is easy to imagine that excessive leniency or excessive harshness on the part of the Court could lead to the kind of interminable blood feuds we have seen throughout history, taking place in Florida.

These already too-long comments are just a tiny sample of the kinds of problems that need to be faced as we try to restore a sense of community and purpose to social life.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

I saw that disturbing link about corruption in Polk County. It was sad to read. It seems like Shefiff Grady Judd is up to his ears in trouble.

I bet most people still think the girls posted the 2 Victoria Lindsay assault videos online but it was actually Sheriff Judd who had the 2 Tori assault video’s posted online. Posting rhe video online for eternity didn’t do anyone any good least of all Tori. And it didn’t do the parents and grandparents of Tori or the parents and grandparents of those arrested for assaulting Tori any good and the stress from this case has likely shortened the adults involved in this case life expectancies to some degree because of the agony they have gone through and will contunue to go through.

I didn’t know the the ashes of Mercades Grandfather were in that glass shelf. That changes how I think of her imploring the girls not to hit the shelf. But I wish Mercades had just said stop the fight and that her Nana would be upset with it happening in her house.

As for Tori now doing television interviews it’s long overdue. She should have done them 7 months ago. I hope doing he interviews helps Tori in some way. And I’m sure the interviews are about how she’s doing and not the legalities of the case.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

Hi:
What article have you read? I seen the one in The Lakeland Ledger.
I hope they don’t try and push her too much to say things she doesn’t want to talk about. The media does that alot, I am living proof of that! And yes I believe at least 10 years have been shaved off my life, at least.
I haven’t been respondeing because I wanted to see where the posts were going about ” beating them with canes and stuff” ? That confused me and quite frankly scared me, I’m happy to see it was intended to prove a point, and that these were not actual thoughts.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

As for her Good Morning America interview Victoria Lindsay says that she still has blurred vision in her left eye 7 months after the assault. 🙁 What a shame. And I bet the probelms with her left eye were caused by the left hand punch from Briittni to Tori when Tori was getting up from the couch and very vulnerable. Whatever happens with Tori’s left eye somneone should have to pay for her medical bills for her eye and all the other doctors appointments and treatments she’s had. The Lindsay’s should not have to pay for it.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

Hello Christina. The article you asked about was on the homepage of Good Morning America.

I’m sure the media would love to pry pertinent comments from Tori about the case but that won’t happen. I can’t see Tori doing interviews other than going over how she’s doing. This is an odd time for her to do interviews when the assault happened over 7 months ago and the presidential election still on most people’s minds. But better late than never as far as Tori’s interviews go.

Christina, I hope your 10 year guess is over the top but the case has to be eating you all up. The case just drags on an on and on. But Tori has to get justice served on her behalf no matter how long it takes.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

Mercades has been ready to be sentenced and to move on, but obviously the others want it dragged out as long as possible for obvious reasons. I have already said that I am willing to help, but I need this to come to an end at least for us, so that I can focus on how I am going to make money to pay off my loan shark I had to put my house up to get her attorney, and also help Tori. I am writing a book, but not about the beating ( people should know this) it is about how Polk County Corruption got the best of us.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

I hope you all can move on and Mercades is sentenced fairly. I’m not sure what that is because she didn’t strike Tori like the other 4 girls. But will Mercades be convicted as a ringleader? Or for threatening Tori that if she went to the Police the next beating would be worse? Or if Mercades blocked the front door to keep Tori inside is that felony kidnapping? I’m still not sure what the facts are so it’s hard for me to predict. I do think Kayla Hasall and Brittany Mayes wil ge the lightest senteces of the 5 girls on trial. I do hope Tori gets justice and the girls get second chances after serving whatever senteces they get. And good for you Christina for trying to help the situation. Good luck with the book.

As for April’s attorney grilling Tori in the deposition I wonder if that kind of attack will hurt all of the defendants in the trial.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

Ok, but I thought it was actually finally out that the girls didn’t post the video The Sheriff did, I don’t see that on GMA’s site. But everything will come out! When my mom prayes things happen : )

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

Oh, one more thing…and I’m saying this to you guys first. I understand many might say hmm…but when the Mercades is sentenced wether its probation or time in jail, I want it outside of Polk County, I don’t trust Grady Judd at all. I personally would rather see her do a little time then have to face that jerk for 5 years here, him breathing down her neck, any other Sheriff breathing down her neck is well deserved, but he is dirty.

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November 9, 2008

gompertz

Christina, the “beating with canes” comment was surely meant for violent criminals, and anyone who is up on this case knows by now that Mercades is not a criminal, violent or not. I do believe that corporal punishment is appropriate in the case of really evil criminals, like that one on death row in Florida for raping a child and burying her alive. Lethal injection is much too good for the likes of him. Whatever Mercades’ role in the beating, it looks to me like she experienced a moment of weakness which she probably regrets. Whether the others have any regrets(other than regretting getting caught) I don’t know, it doesn’t look like they do, we’ll have to wait for the trial to find out if they have any remorse.

Since I’m not a legal expert I don’t know if asking for a separate trial for Mercades is a good or bad idea. It’s just that her part in what happened was so different from the others. Of course she has already suffered from “guilt by association,” in the media and the blogs, and I’m wondering if the same thing could happen in a trial. Anyway I’m sure your lawyer knows best about that.

As for the book, it will probably do well. Interest in the case died down for a while only because not much was happening for a while, but things will pick up again. It’s such an important case with so many different angles, and such an intriguing cast of characters, that I’m sure a lot of people will be writing about it. Your own point of view offers a perspective on the case that differs from others, and of course people will want to know your point of view.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

If Mercades had blocked the door I wouldn’t be out fighting for her everyday, and I sure wouldn’t be on here amongst you nice people. I would have hid my head in shame like many had thought I should before they knew the truth. And there is no way the can convict her for Ringleader charges because Tori has in her diary which was made public that BH was the Ringleader. And Mercades didn’t threaten her with another beating either, there was something said by Mercades but I chose not to get into it, for the simple fact that I am not anti Tori, I feel she made some mistakes, but the beating was terrible.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

Christina, how is your mother? She looked like she was agonizing alot when she was in court. I’m sure this has taken a terrible toll on her life.

I agree with you about the points you have made about the need to spank children. If you don’t they grow up with les respect for authority and that’s dangerous.

I wish there was a way before the trial that Tori could sit down and have one on one supervised lunches with the girls so she could get some things off her chest. I’m sure her heart still aches about what happened to her and that ache won’t go away until well after the trial whenever that is. I think people need to remember that these are youn people we are dealing with here and they still need to find the right direction in life.

And I agree with you Christina that if Mercades does jail time it should be outside of Polk County.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

Since the whole Court thing with my mom caught by the news, and I told her I didn’t want her speaking anymore, at first she got upset with me, but now that she is only in the background and not on TV I feel she is feeling better not great but better.
As for the book, I don’t know alot about how I could do something like this, but here’s my idea..I want to do something off the top example: One publisher quoted me that they recieve 80% and I get 20% of each book sold. ( At first this sounded very unfair to me) if anyone knows is this is a good deal please let me know..anyway, keeping in mind that I am Mercades’ mom and not Hardcastle’s mom, say my book sold for 20.00 I don’t know maybe this is too much or too little but its only an example, rather then a check being sent to me and then in turn me send Victoria a check, I would like to have it set up that for every 20.00 book that is sold maybe 1.00-2.00 be sent straight to her towards her doctor bills. And then I get a check sent to me for 18.00. Please don’t attack me for the numbers, because I really don’t know how this works. I don’t feel it would be fair for me to send them half of the proceeds, I feel everyone needs to do thier share of helping. You know who I think would just excel with a book? Victoria herself, and a publisher should get a hold of her and offer thier services for almost nothing, she needs write, write and write some more. Remember, I was jumped in the same house, it was humiliating and I wrote my heart out in a journal, I hope someone has told her she needs to put her feelings down on paper! Write letters of anger and rage to each person, and then throw them away or burn them. The burning worked best for me. This really does work. Even her rejection issues prior to the beating, she needs to get her feelings out. You ask alot of violent people in jail what thier problem is..alot were subjected as children to parents that say that old saying ” A child should be seen not heard” I have always hated this saying, my father was allowing me to respectfully speak my mind at 2. By 5 if didn’t like something about my food in a restuarant, he would not send it back, I had to speak up but always with respect. Anyway, sorry for getting away from the subject at hand.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

I must add that after the rage letters, she should have closer by excpeting apoligies in the same manner, on paper not in person, because as we all know, for some things we could wait our entire life to hear ” i’m sorry” and never hear it. But in order to move on ourselves we must picture the person or people saying they’re sorry, excepting it and making dust.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

And can someone tell me why whenever I “X” out of this site, my computer goes nuts? Like 20 or 30 windows for this site just pops up one after the other. I have to shut my computer down and start over. : (

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November 9, 2008

Scott

Christina, I’m glad your mother is doing better. It might be best for he to stay in the background. I’m sure this whole ordeal has taken a toll on her.

As for the book 80/20 sounds like a bad deal. I think 50/50 or 60/40 would be fair for you. It’s nice idea from you about doing a book and having someproceeds go to Tori’s bills. You are being proactive with this and atleast you’re trying. Yes Tori should do a book if she can stand up to the heat she would take for writing a book about her ordeal. Having Tori write her feelings down on paper might help her get some of the hurt out of her system sounds like a good idea. Tori does seem to have issues to eal with and I hope the right people are helping her.

And I like the idea of those who hurt Tori writing letters of apologies to her. But that won’t happen for legal reasons. They would be admitting guilt. But the assault was taped so it’s not like it’s hard to figure out who did what.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

Christina, I don’t have the same issues with my computer that you do. That sounds like a real pain.

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November 9, 2008

Christina Garcia

I’m sorry you misunderstood me, I only meant thatshe should picture these girls saying they’re sorry and her accepting but only after putting her angry feelings on paper. And this is only for her sake. Why should she carry all this weight around for years until everyone decides they need to make things right? It may never happen, and for closure she needs to do these things, at least its my opinion.

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November 9, 2008

Scott

I agree with you Christina that Tori needs to be able to vent her frustrations and feelings to people who will listen to her. And she need closure as well. I hope she gets it.

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November 9, 2008

amyv

Hello Scott –
Yes I also believe Victoria should write a book. I am sure her book would stir a lot of interest. And, then she would have plenty of money to pay for the medical and therapy bills for the rest of her life.

I did not see her on GMA but the fact that she will have permenant damage in her eye is so upsetting. Of course, their were many punches thrown and although we can say the probablity of it being from Brittini Hardcastle are high, might not be. April hit her , Kayle hit her and so did Brittany Mayes. So, even though Brittini Hardcastle was the most severe, I am sure a lawyer could argue it would be hard to pintpoint exactly which punch and by whom it was thrown, caused the permanent damage.

So, So sad for this victim to have this damage for the rest of her life. This I am sure will affect the judgement of the court.

Christinia – I am truely sorry that your health has been effected in such a negative way. I believe if the stress is to much, you should focus on the trial alone. Forget about the book deals and if you are getting the best deal. This is to much to handle at such a vunerable time in your life.

And perhaps if you fear for you life from the sheriff the FBI should be involved. I would not be able to sleep at night.

Are you living with your family now? You need a support group. And your daughter needs her mother by her side. Please clear up the rumor that your grandmother was rasing your children? I do believe you had said Mercades was staying their because you were having difficulty with her? Correct if I am wrong.

Of course you have had a lot to say about Victorias living arrangements. But, I have not heard you say much about Mercades living arrangements. Just curious. Do not take this as an attack. Just as we will assume your facts about Victoria as not being attacks.

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November 10, 2008

LawAndOrder

Reminder: The Tori interview is airing today. Good Morning America, which starts at 7 AM in ET, and Inside Edition later in the late afternoon.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Hi Amy, I would hope Tori’s serious list of injuries from the assault would affect the judgement of the court. But who know with courts and juries and judges. I

One of the things that struck me most was that I read in the Good Morning America article that while Tori was in the hospital she was sitting up in the hospital bed with her knees covering her face still terrified of what happened to her when her father came to visit her. We know those girls did alot of physical damage to Tori but the emotional damage they did to her was incaculable.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Hi everyone, waiting for the GMA interview in a few minutes. I just wanted to reiterate a point I raised before. The trial(which will probably be televised, right?) should reveal something about the perpetrators which could be useful in determining what a fair sentence should be. One would of course look for any signs of remorse, or the lack of it. What if the defense attorneys make good their threat to attack the victim on the witness stand? How would the defendants react to that? They would be right there watching this, and they may give some indication of how they feel about seeing Victoria victimized again, this time by the lawyers. We will see whether they still harbor an abiding dislike for Victoria, strong enough to elicit some sentiments similar to the “Ooh, yeah baby…” everyone found so disgusting. Though they would try to conceal such feelings, it could be revealed in subtle ways that a competent judge could detect. Let us hope JUdge Spoto is competent, and objective enough to take such things into account. If the girls demonstrate that their hatred for their victim is so extreme{and we still don’t know if it is} that they could constitute a threat to their victim in the future, shouldn’t that be something that would affect the length of their sentence. On another blog someone reported that at least one family, April Cooper’s has acquiesced in their attorney’s despicable tactics. I still don’t see how that is supposed to help the defendant the lawyer is supposed to represent, though the attorney wins no matter what, because he gets to appear tough and ruthless and impress his affluent clients.

I heard a few months ago, It might have been on Nancy Grace, that April Cooper’s lawyer is working pro bono. I wonder if that’s true. You don’t have to be a Latin scholar to understand, “pro bono, cui bono?”

BTW it was reported on this blog a few days ago that the hideous Joran van der Sloot is up to no good, good to see GMA is on the case. Maybe this time he will belatedly be brought to justice.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Victoria’s Good Morning America interview was pretty good. She looked fine but it’s a shame she still has vision in her left eye.

I’m perplexed by Talisa Lindsay’s reaction from the interview in her wanting to hug the girls who assaulted Tori. That’s a nice gesture on her part. But enough already Talisa. Tori will be assaulted again at the trial and that will hurt her deeply. I hope Tori has professional help in dealing with her emotional scars from her assault. I’m sure her agony runs deep.

Gompertz, you can bet the defense attorney’s will try to slander Tori’s character during the trial and pin the blame of the assault on Tori on her. It’s obvious to me that’s what’s going to happen.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

The interview was well worth waiting for. Victoria’s gentle demeanor, and the fundamental goodness she and her parents displayed cannot help but reinforce her image with the public.

Scott, as far as the forgiving attitude of Talisa, one might look at it as a sign of deep spiritual strength that Victoria could draw upon when she is under attack. With the despicable lawyers ready to do their worst, it is shaping up as a battle of good vs. evil, and that may be the best way to look at it. If I were to advise Victoria, I would counsel her to not yield to negative emotions like fear or anger but to take the example of Talisa, because that’s the best way to get through the coming ordeal. I’m not disagreeing, I too share the anger and outrage. I only suggest that the best approach to dealing with the kind of violent attack Victoria is facing might be to take another direction. It’s like in Tai Chi, where you learn to be very calm and relaxed, more calm and relaxed than you ever thought you could be. And that’s how you can overcome the fiercest attack, physical or otherwise. And it doesn’t have to be tai chi, you can draw your strength from Christian belief or other religious sources, as Talisa seems to do. Just my opinion.

Now as for the interview, was I asleep or did they edit out a few pieces that appeared on the transcript? Not sure. But here’s the thing that is certain: of the five, only one was singled out, and that was Mercades, whose name and picture received special attention. Does that show that the pattern of deceptive reporting about Mercades is really about someone’s special agenda, or is it just sloppy reporting?

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November 10, 2008

Joseph

Well do not know where to begin. Followed this whole Payton Place drama story for awhile now. But after stumbling upon this blog, it shed’s the plight into another dimension. By this I mean,whom ever thought that Ms. Christina would contribute so heavily into all that we have had the priviledge of reading and seeing. Pardon me if I happen to offenf anyone, but I look into a persons heart, and feel the anguish of what that persons feeling.

Whether, from the victim or the suspects, and the loved ones. As mentioned, this blog has started awhile ago, I’ve read everyone to date,and cannot be more displeased with some of the comments. the “old, he said, she said”. Tori doesn’t look pregnant on GMA today! Her and her parents said nothing distasteful and her mom showed me a woman filled with love and compassion for the one’s that wronged her daughter. I have to admire that in a person, it showed style. Then I hear Christina, venting upon our law enforcement of this country, she may have all this anger and distress proven soon.
But then, maybe not. She like anyone else in her position,wants closure. Unfortunately, it takes time and perhaps God’s will for truth to arise and all wounds heal.

It takes a cold heart, for people to judge one another and to make up shameless stories, start rumors and gossip on the internet. They think that they are heard. They are, but it also hurts the people that are most affected by what’s happened. Christina and her Mom, Tori’s parents and so on.

Christina, wish I could say more, but I do not want to invade your privacy at a time such as this. I do not agree with some things that create threats, and especially violence. I know you must feel vulnerable to what lies ahead, but please you didn’t need to mention the armed weapon bit. Keep things such as that private, and just arm yourself with prayer, he’ll hear you. As for what the publisher said (80/20), sounds about right. You need to understand, you create the concept and write. They edit, proof, establish rights of author, print,add graphic, endorsements and promote. When you write more books, your value goes higher. The time is coming, when the truth will come out for everyone’s sake. In my opinion as unbiased as I can be, is do not be surprised if only two of the children get the no more than 2-5 years in jail or a combination under probation with community service, and unless there is reason beyond a doubt, anyone not in that video should be aquitted. However, the one thing that lingers in my head is detrimental. It involves the one girl, named “Cara”, whom worked the camera. She provoked much of the violent senarios, with her comments which were heard while taping. She was released amazingly and I think she’ll appear as a states witness to testify. Same with maybe one of the two boys. The remaining girls will probably go into some sheriff’s work ranch, mainly for counselling. So the drama continues and will end soon for the sake of your community down there, and the media can find something else to share with the world, as they always do.
My thoughts and prayers are with all the children and their families involved in this unfortunate case. b.”what you do for the least little one’s of mine, you did for me”. God Bless.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Gompertz, you could be right about how Talisa’s forgiving nature could be helping Tori in this case. I hope that’s the case.

And yes Tori does seem to have a gentle demeanor about her.

Joseph, that was a very well thought out and very fair post. But it’s been reported that it was Brittany Mayes working the camera most of the time and not Cara Murphy. I’m not sure what’s the truth here. But I think there’s a good chance Brittnay folmed the assault more than cara did.

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November 10, 2008

GregS

Remember I tried to show how this experience is life changing, after being physically attacked in this way it permanently changes an individual. This shock conditions some individuals to favor using violence themselves. In other individuals this shock removes a layer of innocence and trust, they no longer trust humankind and it changes their world view from thinking all people are good inside to thinking that people are cruel by nature. I think if you read what Tori has said, she’s lost her ability to trust people, this means she has lost the layer of innocence. She basically said in one of her interviews not to trust people, I believe it was in people magazine?

This is a violent crime, while I cannot predict precisely how this changes Tori I can see that she’s already been changed permanently by this. It’s very similar to how rape victims are changed permanently by it, it’s not something to take lightly and this is precisely why we have to give harsh punishments to the girls who physically did this. I’m not going to give them extra mercy because of their gender, if this had been a group of guys that did this, would we even be talking about how they should just receive probation? The emotional damage of being trapped in a room and jumped while being verbally harassed is equally damaging no matter what genders are involved in the crime, it’s a life changing event.

It’s safe to say at this point that this experience is going to harden Tori, whether this results in a stronger Tori or a weaker Tori depends entirely on how she adapts to this. Some people have PTSD like symptoms where they have nightmares of the event for years. Some people have anxiety attacks where they just get anxious whenever they are in a room locked room with strangers. Some don’t get any psychological effects of this sort and instead just go with an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Some start to distrust humanity in general.

Usually guys experience this sorta thing at some point, as a lot of guys have been in situations where their friends turned on them and jumped them or whatever. If you have been in a situation like this, just think back to the time when your best friend betrayed you, or think back to the time when you got jumped that first time, at some point you may have began to view humanity differently because you’d see that these people had no remorse.

I think a lot of people are sheltered and so they believe all humans have remorse and empathy, and only the people who literally see the look in the persons eyes actually see the other side of humanity. Like how some people will show their good side all the time but then when nobody watching they show you their bad side and you recognize it as familiar only because you’ve seen this side of humanity before. But the shock is in seeing it the for the first time, and that is life a life changing moment, it’s like seeing a person die.

My opinion is, the girls who beat up Tori need to have their lives changed permanently, and I think prison is the best way to bring these changes to them. I think if they don’t get prison time it’s just going to allow people like them to go on and cause more damages to people emotionally.

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November 10, 2008

Christina Garcia

Mercades was there, and she told me it was Cara whom taped it.
As for where Mercades’ living arrangements I have no secrets, Part of my civil suit is because of the National Lies about how I didn’t have custody of Mercades. Its garbage, I have custody of both of my girls. If you look at my myspace.com account which was froze after PCSO went in and erased thier emails to me questioning me. But its still up there. It tells the entire story, she was simply there to help my mom after some surgery and to attend Mulberry Highschool. Sure, I was having some troubles with her, bbut nothing abnormal ( only normal teenage things) I raised her, i mean think about this, why would I chose now to lie about something like that? She isn’t exactly being honored. Right? But all the nonesense that he said nationally are lies lies and more lies! No affense to anyone but if they TV the trial on Mercades I hope they do the same for the Federal case.
As far as the gun situation, I mentioned on here for 1 reason, I want HIM to know I am equipped to protect my family, maybe if he knows he won’t bother coming for me. I know maybe that sounds stupid, but I don’t want him coming to my house, nor do I want to be put in that position. I just hope he stays over there and lets this thing play out in court.

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November 10, 2008

Didacticus

If Cara taped it all, then WHY does Cara APPEAR in the video (unlike Mayes), why does Brittini point SIDEWAYS from the camera when she mentions Cara and TOWARD the camera when she mentions Mayes, and why is the voice of the camera operator in BOTH videos nothing like the voice of Cara?

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November 10, 2008

Christina Garcia

One more thing, and this is simply my opinion, I don’t think her book should go for any bills that had to do with the beating, people need to take responsibilty for thier own crap. I don’t feel Mercades herself did damage to Tori only that she didn’t get in between, but I have chosen to step up to the plate if this book deal goes through. Whats right is right. As for me spending too much energy on writing…well to be honest, writing out my feelings is what helps me the most, if I didn’t have that I think I would’ve went crazy along time ago. And I like the waythey said ” The video appeared on the internet” People are so scared to tell the truth! How did it appear on the internet? The story was told to make the public ( you guys) to think the girls put it on there and then the cops caught them, boy he just didn’t know who’s mama he was messing with, Mercades turned the video over. I’m going to go for a bit, I’m getting worked up again. I’ll be back later my friends.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Thanks for the information Christina. But please be careful with the gun. Did Sheriff Judd just make a mistake about saying you don’t have custody of Mercedes because he heard that? or did he know you did have custody and told a mistruth anyway?

And yes I knew early on that Judd had the video posted online and not the girls even though they had a couple days to do so. I heard that when they watched the video the girls decided not to post it because they knew it looked bad and made them look bad. Is that true Christina?

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Anyone who saw the GMA segment this morning will know that Mercades was singled out, even if only for a moment, it was enough. I doubt whether it was deliberate on the part of GMA, but probably just more of the same laziness and sloppiness I’ve seen all my life from media people. They just take whatever has been stated in previous accounts and copy it without doing any fact-checking on their own. So the original account given by the sheriff is accepted as truth, and no more research is needed. Please note, though, that nothing that Victoria herself said would contribute to that impression, though in the minds of casual viewers(and that’s most of the audience) it won’t matter. The damage is done on the basis of the original account, and the lies and deceptions proliferate because of the inertia of the media. Hopefully the court will sort it all out objectively. From what I’ve seen and read about the judge, at least he seems like a serious, sober person who can remain calm and objective.

Greg, I know from experience exactly what you mean by the lack of remorse, the inhumanity. It certainly looks that way in the video, and of course male or female are capable of it. As for Victoria and other victims, getting justice in court and seeing perpetrators punished is part of the answer. Beyond that victims have to help themselves by making the right choices of whom they choose as friends and associates in the future. Hopefully Victoria and also Mercades will see the value of making martial arts training a part of their lives from now on, when the trial is over. You are right, this kind of experience changes your life, but you don’t have to let it destroy you. There are people out there who can help by teaching self-defense and meditation so that the terrible things you suffered can lead to a positive outcome.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Tori came accross very well today on both Good Morning America and Inside Edition. It took Tori over 7 months to do any television interviews and then she has 2 in one day. Tori’s television interviews were long overdue. She seemed composed and forgiving to those who assaulted her. And on Inside Edition it was reported that Tori doesn’t want the girls who were arrested for assaulting and improsoning her to go to jail. That’s a very generous, forgiving and Christian attitude for Tori to have especially considering those girls left Tori with apprent permanent left eye damage, nightmares and fear of strangers and most likely intimidating female strangers. I think it was a wise move for Tori to do these 2 television interviews. She and her parents came accross well and didn’t say anything to iflame the situation.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

As for the posting of the video, of course the facts aren’t all in, but isn’t it possible it was never intended for the internet, but only to circulate in the local community? I am not for one moment suggesting it would make the act of taping it for private showings any less heinous, if the motive was to further humiliate the victim. But it makes a difference in evaluating the motive of the sheriff in airing it, if we thought the perpetrators were going to put it out on Youtube anyway. By claiming it was going to appear on the internet anyway, and that there were more cameras on therefore more copies which presumably had not been intercepted, the sheriff’s intentions in posting it would be less suspect.

Why do I think it may not have been intended for the internet? Again, just a conjecture, but it just doesn’t have the “look” of the typical “girlfight” video, of which there are many. There’s a certain appearance or style that’s common to these videos, they are generally just about the physical fight. This one is different, because it has a story line. It’ involved someone named “Elmer” and some other names that would mean nothing outside the local community. Why would they think the airing of personal grievances like that mean anything to people in New York or Europe?

I repeat, it is a horrible thing to do to anyone, to beat the person and also tape it, whoever is the intended audience. Still, one must ask, who gained benefit by putting it out there for the whole world to see, except the sheriff?

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November 10, 2008

Christina Garcia

Whatever the Sheriff’s reason does not matter to me, he should’ve checked his self and documents before making statements as facts when they were not true.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Scott, haven’t seen the second interview yet, I think it airs a little later in the evening here in NY. As for Victoria’s forgiving attitude it’s truly uplifting. From the point of view of a crime victim’s mental and spiritual health, I think it is important to not harbor feelings of revenge and resentment. That kind of feeling can consume you and you can wind up victimizing yourself all over again. One can look at life as a battle and, just as in a martial arts fight, a person’s anger can be used against them. So I think it’s good that Victoria seems to be beyond anger, and is behaving like a good martial artist would in a fight. And yes, it really is a fight and there are evil people, savages as Greg calls them, who will try to destroy Victoria and other good people.

A forgiving attitude is not inconsistent with being a realist. By forgiving the other, you dispel your anger and free yourself to deal with the opponent flexibly. Now it is up to Victoria’s attackers. Will they now be remorseful and accept the judgment of the Court (after all, forgiveness doesn’t imply freedom from responsibility and facing the consequences) or will they respond with anger and hate as before? Then those out-of-control emotions will harm only them.

And as for those attorneys who have calculated that their rich clients in the criminal world will be impressed by attacking and slandering Victoria? Isn’t it possible that even those hardened criminals will be disgusted with these attorneys tactics, when they see this gentle child suffer abuse in the court? Remember in Florida there are some heinous child murderers on death row, who have to be segregated from the other prisoners. Hardened criminals do have certain limits as to what they will condone, especially when it comes to attacks on children, and these lawyers should consider just what impression they will make on prospective clients, even if those clients are on the wrong side of the law. Anyway, I offer these random thoughts for whatever they are worth.

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November 10, 2008

Garland

Hi, Christina, how are things going? I’m glad that you have gotten everything out in the open with what happened between you &amp Mercades. I also hope that your book deal goes through &amp becomes a success. You have my sympathy, &amp I hope that you, your daughter &amp Victoria can make amends after this trial is over.

On another note, I praise Victoria &amp her parents for the way that they handled themselves during the interview. Of course, I haven’t watched it myself (was still asleep at the time), but according to these posts, it was very much like it. I can only hope that things will come for them at the trial. Good things.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Didacticus, the impression I had was that Cara and Brittany took turns with the camera. I do still think that Cara got away with something by having all charges dropped. The harm done to the victim was partially caused by the humiliation of having it recorded, however the tape was intended to be used. So even if she only did the taping for a short time, she was still an active participant, right?

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Gompertz, it could very well be that Tori has let go of the anger at the girls for what they did to her. if she did then that’s good because that means she will have a chance for happiness instead of always being unhappy and feeling like a victim. But I still feel that Tori’s attackers and their attorney’s will be out for Tori’s blood at the trial.

And if Tori truly feels the girls should go to jail that might mean she has no plans to file civil suits against them.

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November 10, 2008

Trench Reynolds

You’ll have to forgive me everyone. I’ve been asleep at the wheel. I previously banned Didacticus or whatever he’s calling himself this week. Once banned always banned with me.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I must have missed that second interview, couldn’t find it anywhere. The one interview I did see, and the second I heard about. And judging by that, she is surely a good and peaceful person. And yes, of course she will be attacked. Someone just posted another smear against her on the Wire, saying what a violent, nasty brat she is. And the lawyers have nothing better than these same tactics, what else can they do? The only other possibility is to try to show that the video was generated by some really great computer graphics.LOL

If the jury sees this girl as we saw her today, how could they believe the smears? That kind of desperate trick would only backfire. And what if she broke down and cried, that would only help arouse sympathy.

As for Talisa, being compassionate and offering forgiveness is not weakness. Compassion is not sentimentality, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Talisa turns out to be a tougher opponent than some people think for those who would deny justice.

On another note, seeing what a peaceful girl Victoria is, how likely is it that she would have a violent thug for a friend? I thin just as we see through the accusations against Victoria, we are beginning to see that the accusations against Mercades are distortions and lies. It seems more likely that the girl who took care of hurt animals had a temporary lapse of courage and judgment that day, and hopefully she can be reconciled with her friend soon.

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November 10, 2008

gompertz

Sorry, Trench, we had no idea. We’ll all have to drink more coffee and be more vigilant.

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November 10, 2008

Scott

Didacticus = Davis Stein? )

Gompertz, it appears the smears are going to keep coming at Tori. She doesn’t deserve it but people keep ripping her. Of course it has nothing to do with the trial or what happened to Tori during her assault and imprisonment. The video contains the facts. Everything else is just rumour.

I hope Tori does some more interviews. She comes accross well and as someone who is reserved and gentle.

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November 11, 2008

GregS

Actually the Tori interview only made me more angry at the girls in the video. Victoria as a person ,s he might have flaws but she seems like she has a lot of potential and overall is a good person.

This only makes the actions of the girls who beat her up look much much worse. Because Tori is someone who is easy to relate to, just about anyone can relate to her, which spells doom to the girls seen filmed in the video showing her no empathy or remorse at all.

Mercades is not evil, shes just a bad friend. I don’t think Mercades is the problem because shes not violent. I think these interviews if anything will help Tori look good, nobody is going to believe the hearsay. Whether she was pregnant or not, whether she made threats or not, the video followed by that interview will linger in viewers minds beyond any of the rumors.

Justice will include jailtime, I’m sure Tori doesn’t agree with it, this may be out of fear or compassion but I believe that comes from an emotional place. But I’d personally prefer a justice system which does not rely on human emotion but on the rule of law and on what would have the best impact. I think for a lot of people it would feel good to let Brittini Hardcastle and April Cooper go free, but if you look at the effects it’s had on Tori, theres no way we can let them go free now.

I think this case and these interviews are only further dividing the two camps, on one side the law and order faction that wants the punishment to fit the crime, and on the other side you have the let kids be kids Bill Maher faction. Brittini Hardcastle is 17, thats not a child, thats practically an adult. April Cooper is child like but her behavior isn’t all that child like and she’s capable of physically beating up a 17 year old so she’s not exactly harmless either. Let the jury decide.

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November 11, 2008

Scott

Greg, you make a pertinent point about how Tori not wanting the girls to go to jail may be out of fear. I agree. That would be fear in her community in my eyes.

And that was a good one about the Bill Maher faction which I’m also sick of. )

As for some people saying Tori wants to fight and is making threats I would think that’s not true or it’s exaggerated. But if by chance it is true I blame in laege part what happed to Tori on March 30, 2008 for making Tori bitter and angry. But Tori seemed just the opposite of bitter and angry on her 2 television interviews yesterday.

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November 11, 2008

Christina Garcia

Well, by now you guys all know I feel the legal system here in Polk County doesn’t want to do whats fair for anyone. We’ll see when Mercades finally gets her offer, what it is.

What blogs are you guys talking about that have smears on it? And are they the facts I have brought up or just a bunch of crap that are most likely lies?
Who is Bill Maher?
Thanks

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November 11, 2008

Christina Garcia

One more thing that has been bothering me so bad and I reacted to the comment early on, on TBO. The video was never going on youtube or myspace like The Sheriff noted, ( keep in mind he was promoting his cybercop CD) when this happened. Wether we think its sick or have other opinions, the 2 wanted proof they won a fight that the victim had been saying she wanted, I doubt she ( victim) was crazy enough to ever say she wanted to fight them both at the same night, but the media makes it also look like April and Britt were both on her at the same time. The situation itself is bad enough to punish these children ( yes children) why add more lies on top of it, were they afraid the truth wouldn’t be enough to hold up in court? I think not, a combination of an election, CD’s ( made by Sheriff), veiness, and just plain good ol’ boy mentality is the hidden agenda. This was BIG enough and no reason at all for making it into a terroist attack.

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November 11, 2008

Christina Garcia

Again, I feel like I need to say I am not Anti Tori, what happened to her was atrocious. I believe that the girls wanted to bring the video to school, that was thier intention. To show some of the people that Tori was bragging about how the 2 girls were scared of her. It got way out of hand, a girl was beaten beyond belief. I do wish I could hug Telissa and tell her I am sorry for misplacing my anger for the Sheriff against a person who sure didn’t need it : ( And explain I really thought that The Sheriff was getting his information from Tori therefore thinking that Tori was resposnsible for all these lies that were destroying us and causing the death threats, and then I bought the packet from the courthouse and read what the victim acually stated : ( I didn’t think a Sheriff could be capable of such bunk!

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November 11, 2008

Christina Garcia

Well, we went and got all the police reports from her ex ( Jake the Snake) constantly harrassing her sending 5 girls over to beat her up. I wish I had a scanner to share this with some people on here whom I have drawn a little close to. Dates are as follow: 1/17/2008…3/07/2008…3/6/2008…and 10/7/2007 the cops witnessed texts, and on top of all this the report of him sending the girls and 4 dudes to the house was after the injuction! I’m going to try and go to the library to scan these and show them to anyone who might be interested here..

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November 11, 2008

gompertz

Wow, I just got home, I see a lot of stuff posted over on Topix, I’ll get to that in a while. Anything about the Snake would be interesting, I have to confess that the first time I saw him on TV I couldn’t stand this guy, and “snake” sounds about right.

I also wanted to comment on the book. Probably it’s a good idea to have an attorney deal with the publisher. If you key in “book royalties” on google, you find there’s a lot of information you need to know over and beyond the figure they quote, whatever percentage it is, you can’t tell if it’s good or bad for you without the lawyer to sort out the specifics. It’s like if you take out a mortgage on a house, you wouldn’t just accept the lender’s offer without knowing whether it’s fixed or adjustable rate and a lot of other things,right? The same with dealing with publishers, if they say 20% do they specify whether that applies to every book sold, or only if a certain number are sold, or what? So, an attorney can help, and yes, I know, attorneys are expensive. Still, the fee for negotiating with a book publisher must be a lot less than the fee for a trial lawyer. Anyway, that’s my two cents about that.

Now, as for the intention of posting the video, I said something about that a while ago. It just doesn’t look like the kind of video that gets posted on the internet, with all the references to people that nobody would know or care about outside the local area. I think the only one who intended to air it for the world to see was you-know-who)

Also, Christina, I know this whole mess has been rough on you and your family and you are in our prayers. I think that writing these things down and setting the goals you have set for yourself are very positive and will lead to success.

As for the sheriff who is riding the wave of public approval these days, we must remember that popularity is a fickle thing and can disappear overnight. One example is President Bush. It’s been said before but it’s worth repeating. Who would have thought, in the days right after 9/11 when Bush ha d an approval rating over 90% that we would be electing an African-American president with left-wing democratic credentials and a middle name Hussein? The same reversal of fortune could happen to somebody in Polk County.

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November 11, 2008

Scott

Christina, as for the blogs that have posters that smear Tori Polk County Topix is the main one I think. Maybe Gompertz or Garland would know better though. As for smearing Tori they seem to want to take the focus off the case of Tori’s assault and focus on something else. Tori may well have serious issues she needs to deal with. But none of this has to do with her assault or what sentences the 5 girls should get. Violent crimes were committed against Tori and that’s the issue. And if Tori ever seriously said that she wanted to fight April and Brittni that’s very foolish and dangerous. Especially knowing what short fuses those girls have. Tori had no chance in a fight against April or Brittni so why she would want to fight them is perplexing to say the least.

Christina, I don’t know why you would ever think Tori woul be responsible for the hate mail and death threats you and your family received. Tori and her family have not talked negatively about those arrested. Nor have they inflamed this sad situtation at all. It was the media the recklessly published the contact information of the 8 teens arrested in Tori’s assault. That was a big mistake and whoever published the names and addresses of the 8 teens I would thinbk could be sued for endangering the lives of the teens and their families.

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November 12, 2008

Christina Garcia

What I meant was that all the lies the sheriff was talking I thought he recieved from the victim. Later finding out The Sheriff was acually branching out on his own agenda : ( I didn’t realize this, I mean who would’ve thought. I had a dream last night that I was at a table telling Grady Judd how I feel about him, so maybe thats a sign that I will get more then my day in court with him. As far as a lawsuit on behalf of Mercades for him and the media putting her life in danger, I don’t think the public is ready to support any civil suit for her. YET. I say yet, because when and after I release information then I think the public will be better equipped to judge for themselves. I will google the book royalties as you suggest.

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November 12, 2008

Amyv

Scott and Greg – I haven’t been on for a while my father has been very ill. I don’t think I will be posting anymore and this should be a relief for Christina.

Greg – I agree with your post most of all. I must admit I had to skip of reading of the post but I get the jest of where these conversations are going.

It is beyond belief to me some of the things I am reading on this post. The support for some of these girls is growinrriri stronger and for the victim lessening.

I was very impressed with Victoria’s composure and maturity during her interviews. What ho rrible nightmare this girl was put through. Not just by the ones who hit her but everyone that was involved in any way. Every one of these girls were a part of this and non should be excused. They all sat there taping, cheering on the beating or participated in it.

It keeps being repeated that two girls hit her. Every report I can find it was four. We hear all their chanting and egging on in the background and all of that is not coming from Brittini Hardcastle.

Whether they say there like a lump and did not bother to help their friend or actually hit her they all caused her severe emotional and phy.
sical distress period.

Christina – Just as what I say to you will not matter, your response or anyone elses that comes to your defense matter less to me.

How dare you get on here and bash Victoria. You
say you are not but you manage to sneak in comments every chance you get. Who are you kidding with “Victoria wanted to fight these girls but, I don’t think in this way”.

Who knows if she every said she wanted to fight them. That is their words against hers. I choose to believe the victim.

Stop with the blaming the sheriff, media and everyone else. These girls and all of them alone are to blame. Stop saying you support the victim when you say sly little things whenever you get a chance.

My hat is off to you though. You are quite the sly one. And extremely manipulative. If you can get a whole bunch of people to feel sorry for you and view you as a victim you are very good. All the while planning on writing a book, profiting from it and continuing to blame everyone else.id
You have also laid some of the blame on your own mother. Stating she refused to let you discipline Mercades and that caused some of the problem.

I am sure a lot of people will have a lot to say about my comments but, as I have said before I don’t really care. I also believe you have some paranoid delusions about the sheriff. You need a gun? Come on everyone wake up and really read these posts.

I know a lot of this sounds hateful but, your intentions don’t fly with me. But keep making everyone feel sorry for you. And, like I said before save your strength for court. I don’t think your tactics are going to fly their.

God bless Victoria. Give her the strength for what she continues to go through. And, hopefully she has some decent human beings as friends now. And, if she wants these girls to go to prison because she is scared. That is beyond sad. But, I am sure these girls would know way better than to every lay a finger or go near this girl again.

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November 12, 2008

Christina Garcia

Yeah when I’m laying in a dam casket remember your words…jerk. I am manipulating? I don’t think so, I may not word things as you would want them all the time. When I made the statement about her wanting to fight the girls, I never ever said both of them at the same time that is nuts. She has said in the past that they were very scared of her. And them both ganging up on her in a way kind of proves that to be true. Why not face her one on one and not noth in her face. You are just plain retarded, saying that I am just trying to profit off a book, my family has been through hell! And yes it was from the Sheriff giving false information, what are you Grady’s child melosting nephew ” Marcus Judd” ? ( proof on the PCSO cyberstation jail records. I do have some brass ones, to be able to come on here and face my enemies. As far as my mother, I know what went on in our home, you don’t and never will. I have taken many chances opening up in here about the truth of my life, the good the bad and the ugly. How dare you say I am bashing the victim, you sound alot like the troll over there on youtube TheViking aka Webring40 . You are the one on here trying to manipulate people. I don’t see anywhere on here anyone saying “oh hey, Mercades should get off scott free” or ” Tori isn’t a victim” She is a vicitim and because I am part of a very constructive critism blog and we’re all getting along excpet you upsets you for some reason. I don’t know if I’ll be back on here again, for this very reason. Everyone can go back to bashing Mercades as if she were the one who hit Tori, if they like. To be honest I don’t think this will happen because everyone here is equipped with the truth. I don’t care that you don’t believe me, my fears are real, waking up with nightmares about Grady Judd are all real. And what about Kalina ( my little girl that is 7) ? What about her very real fears, in your eyes should she bare the punishment as well? Mercades is well ready for her punishment, you don’t see her trying to hold up court dates. And you say 4 girls hit her? I am sorry but I can’t help but laugh at you, everyone in this world knows who hit her. Do they maybe have internet on Mars? Because that is where you have to be typing from. Jesus Mary and Joseph please help this fool!

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November 12, 2008

gompertz

I wasn’t going to post today since I’m busy with work, but I felt I needed to express myself with a few brief remarks.
Christina, I do understand your anger today. How can someone imply there is a subtle lessening of support for Victoria and yet admit that they do not even read the posts but only skim them to get a general impression? I give all the posts careful attention, and as for the ones posted by Garland on Topix, yes I really did read them several times because I thought they were important. (Sorry if I sounded flippant about it over there, didn’t mean to)

Two things need to be understood about my support for Mercades. First, it is based on LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE OBJECTIVELY AND NOT EMOTIONALLY. I presented my reasons in some of my posts here. Anyone can read it if they want to,or they can ignore what I write. But I wish people wouldn’t reach conclusions without giving my posts the same attention as I have given to theirs.
Second, there is no reason to assume that I cannot be supportive of BOTH Victoria and Mercades, and if anyone thinks there is such a reason, I”d like to hear it.

Anyway, some people post on these blogs to vent their anger, and of course they say what they want. If people want to say things like: “Those horrible evil girls should burn in hell forever and be raped by demons, etc.” they have that right, and it may be therapeutic for them. I only hope no one thinks that by expressing these emotions they are helping the victim. To really HELP the victim requires some kind of commitment from people who are in a position to know what she needs, both in terms of getting over the beating, and whatever personal problems she may have.

Scott, I think you did a very good job of sorting out the issues concerning the attacks on Victoria over on Topix. But now I really have to go!

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November 12, 2008

demand justice

personally i think sheriff judd is TOO SOFT… look at some of his videos on you-tube… his jail is too comfy.. all sheriffs neeed to be like sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona… the aclu has sued him dozens of times so he must be doing something right

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November 12, 2008

GregS

Scott the posting of the contact information is not the work of the media. I think it’s the work of a group of individual hackers who decided to take matters into their own hands.

The media gave faces and names, that alone is all it takes to get any amount of information or “dirt” on anybody. The medias part in this is zooming into Mercades Nichols face and labeling her the ring leader. The combination of the name and face made it easy for hackers to do their work. Because I happen to have expertise in information security I can tell you that just about every database is unencrypted.

A. Medical records are still stored in file cabinets in offices and it’s not hard for someone to access the information stored in that.

B. Schools store parents names, and all sorts of useful information, and may even include social security numbers.

C. The police dept has databases too, everything from arrest records, to sex offenders, to terrorists, they have information as well and it’s accessable also.

The methods of accessing databases is so easy that a teenager could probably do it. A skilled group of hackers could easily get someones home address just from a name using old fashioned tools like the phone book, and if its an unlisted number then they can use Myspace to find out what school the individual went to and get the information directly from school records, and on top of that, Myspace just makes life easier for hackers by putting all the information needed in one convienent place.

I came to the conclusion that it was hackers when Christina told me about identity theft. If that really did happen it’s not something the media would do. Also its not really easy to sue because the hackers might not even be from the USA. And to top it all off, any individual could have simply paid them to illegally track these girls down, simply by offering a reward for information about the girls in the video.

I don’t think Victoria is behind it either, I think it was probably just some people who saw the video and who felt like it was necessary for them to take the law into their own hands, and perhaps the corrupt police dept encouraged this behavior, I don’t actually know, but identity theft is a crime committed by hackers, and it’s very likely that private investigators and hacker groups are involved in tracking the activities of the girls involved. The death threats on the other hand was probably the result of this information getting into the wrong hands, and the problem with information is, ALL of us are vulnerable to the same sorta attack because almost all information in all databases are unencrypted and so any crazy groups can access it.

Yes that means the KKK/Nazi Skinheads/Aryan Brotherhood can access peoples medical history and get peoples home addresses and the addresses of their loved ones. On this issue of hacking and stalking people, we should all stick together on this, regardless of where we stand on the trial.

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November 12, 2008

LawAndOrder

Actually the press release PDF released by the Polk County Sheriff had their addresses and phone numbers. Not sure if it’s still up there, but it was on their website at one time.

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November 12, 2008

Christina Garcia

Law and Order is correct..the hackers as you stated nor the media could’ve known whom to screw with had The Sheriff not released these items. Period.

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November 12, 2008

Garland

As I suspected on topix.com earlier. According to Victoria’s former boyfriend on Topix.com (see this here:
http://www.topix.com/city/lakeland-fl/2008/04/8-t…

Victoria does indeed have a Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), &amp Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). I think that it’s very sad for the way that most of it comes from not having her biological mother in her life &amp that she gets angry very easily over little things. Disorders like those DOES happen to children &amp Adults that don’t act out normally. There is also Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Conduct Disorder (CD), &amp Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FAS). I feel very sorry for Victoria, &amp I still believe that she is a good person inside, she just made bad decisions in her life, that’s all. Perhaps that ought to be explained at the trial. Would any of you think so?

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November 12, 2008

Scott

Amy, I’m sorry to hear that your father is not well. I hope he gets better. I also hope you keep posting. If not here then at Topix.

Yes Tori has been through alot and will probably be dragged through the mud at the trial. Tori came accross very well on her 2 television interviews. It’s my hope she understands how well she came accross to the viewers and that that’s how she needs to relate to people all the time and not just when the TV cameras are rolling.

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November 12, 2008

GregS

Garland, STOP ATTACKING VICTORIA.

Usually I stay neutral without getting emotionally involved, but since you are obviously an individual who is emotionally involved I’m using you to make a point. Digging up Victoria’s possible medical history, or scanning the internet to find her disorders is just plain evil. Stop trying to paint her as being “crazy” or “mentally” ill, she’s a troubled teen, most teenagers at her age have those disorders or worse, so how does this help?

Every one of these girls seems to have disorders, and just about every human on earth has a disorder because thats just how psychiatry works, it basically only tells people how sick they are, and I think thats the last thing any of these girls need.

If any of the girls at all need help, it would be the Hardcastle and Cooper, both who seem to be sociopaths/psychopaths and violent. I’m not making a diagnosis, but it’s just an observation.
If you want to talk about mental illness, focus on the two girls who are on tape with their behavior for the world to see and leave the victim alone.

My advice however is just to leave psychiatry and medical records out of this entirely. Let all of the girls have their privacy, including the two girls who beat Victoria up. And if you are a part of the media, you should at least respect some of the social norms and boundaries of privacy and not dig into peoples medical history, it’s bad enough these girls have their names, addresses and video tape all over the internet.

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November 12, 2008

Scott

Garland, if the prosecution at the trial says Tori has a history of making bad decisions I think that would open the door to character assasination of Tori by the defense and I do not want that. Now the defense may take this tact anyway but why open the door for that?

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November 12, 2008

Garland

Greg, I’m NOT attacking Victoria. I’m telling everyone what is happening before people jump to conclusions about her saying that she is a bad, mean spirited person, which she really isn’t. I never dug up her medical history, never tried to paint her as crazy, etc., or anything like that, I just had a feeling of what was happening with her, &amp other people that may be having those things. Her former boyfriend was the one who explained things of my suspicion, that’s all. I’ve been on Victoria’s side the entire time, &amp will always be. Don’t take things the wrong way.

Scott, I do agree with you that the defense shouldn’t use her lifestyle to assasinate her character. Wouldn’t they need to counter something by that?

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November 12, 2008

Garland

Perhaps that I shouldn’t have brought that up. I’m not an evil person, etc., as I’m not the type of person to do that to someone (&amp I NEVER have), &amp I’m certainly not part of the media. Just thought that I want to clear things up with you, Greg. Plus if you notice on topix.com as well as some other sites, I’ve been on Victoria’s side since day one of the incident. I never condoned what the girls did. If you say that I’ve been attacking her, then I apologize.

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November 12, 2008

Scott

Greg, I think you misunderstood Garland. He has been supportive of Victoria since the beginning and has gone out of his way to be kind to her. I think you took Garland posting Tori’s ex boyfriends alleged information about Tori like Garland was attacking her. He certainly wouldn’t do that. And I find it peculiar and sad that some people like an alleged ex boyfriend or alleged girlfriend of Tori’s are posting alleged personal information about her online. It’s no wonder Tori has major trust issues.

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November 12, 2008

gompertz

Greg, you are right to defend Victoria from attack. Still, I think, like Scott does, that there was nothing sinister in Garland’s posting the information. As someone who has himself made well-intentioned statements which did not have the desired effect, I feel I might try for an explanation of the matter, as I see it. All along, some of us, including Garland and me, have agreed to desist from probing into Victoria’s private affairs. That seems only proper, and so things have remained, until the recent attacks started to appear. These attacks seem to have been a reaction to the renewed interest in the case fueled by the news of the deposition and the TV interviews.

Why did that make a difference? Well, there were many accusations directed against Victoria’s character which might lead people to see her as depraved and morally corrupt. Redirecting the focus to a medical or psychiatric perspective could be seen as an attempt to defend her from the charge of moral depravity. If so, I agree the attempt was ill-advised.

Still, the information has been made public, and not by Garland, but by people who have grudges against Victoria for whatever reason. More important, it’s clear that those evil lawyers have gotten their filthy paws on all her private information by now, including medical records. All of it is going to be out there if they get their way, and they probably will. All of us who want justice have to brace ourselves from the onslaught, and be ready to defend the truth.

It is good to have these discussions and exchange views, and if they get heated, that’s not a bad thing. You were angry at what you perceived to be wrong, and that is good. I expressed anger in a previous post, and that, too, I think was good. However, anger is not the same as condemnation. As for my own exasperation which I voiced before, my intention is to renew communication rather than close it down.

Also, I join Scott in offering my condolences to those who experience illness and other misfortunes in their family. May everyone get past these troubles and find peace.

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November 12, 2008

Amyv

Christina – Even though I was quite blunt with my opinion, I refrained from calling you any names. However, once again your true colors are coming through. Although, I am not surprised you did that to me. A jerk, think what you want. Retarded, please refrain from using that word with anyone as it is associated with down syndrome and should not be accepted within our society.

O.K. so now I am the nephew of the sheriff who is a child molester. Or the troll, etc. No. I know none of these girls. No I do not know the sheriff. No I am not his nephew (ridiculous).

Gompertz – I have never once condoned death threats towards any of these girls. Never have I said they should burn in hell. I have had many good discussions with you in the past and we have agreed on some of the issues.

Also, my mistake saying I skimmed through the blogs. I tryed very hard to read over them all but am having problems with my eye sight. I should have been more clear. I also have paid close attention to the facts of this case. I have never accused any of these girls for doing something they did not do.

I believe Mercades did not hit Victoria. I believe Cara Murphy did not hit Victoria. Victoria stated this from the beginning. However, If the other two girl did not hit her why, have their been no reports to the contrary. The victim plainly states that they did. Also, We are being told this is the whole tape. Do you have the proof to support this? Or is their truely portions of the tape we have not seen. Because every article I have read and researched states the tape is approx. 30 minutes long.

Christinia – No I am not typing from Mars. But, I am sure if i was you would say there was a conspiracy against you their as well.

Of course I would never wish distress on your young daughter. Hopefully she is being shielded from seeing this appallling and extremelly violent tape. Also, death threats against her should be punished severely. Or anyone else in your family.

I say these things about punishment for these girls and justice for the victim because I want a safer environment for all teenagers. And, this was as someone previously posted violence beyond 101.

Christinia have you every had a friend, someone you considered one of your best friends betray you. I have and it is more psycholoical pain than I have ever felt physically. It is heart wrenching. And, this is what your daughter is guilty of.

But, enough is enough. I do not wish to argue with anyone on this blog. I just disagree with some of the things being said. And, no since I was quite sure I would be jumped on by people on this blog after I spoke my piece, I do require acceptance by all.

Last comment to you. Please refrain from invoking the name of jesus, mary and joseph followed by the comment of helping this fool.
Call me a fool if you wish. However, the lord knows me. You don’t.

Scott and Greg – I will miss blogging with you.
After the trial, we willl know all of the details. Especially if their is more on the tape. So perhaps once, as Gompertz says we have ALL OF THE ACCURATE FACTS WHICH NO ONE HAS SINCE
THE ENTIRE TAPE HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED, I will come back on and more light will be shed on the participation of each individual in this case.

Once again God bless Victoria. I will continue despite criticism, I will be an advocate for victims only. As, I feel our society has forgotten that they indeed come first. No Gompertz this is not a personal assault on anyone on this blog.

Christina – I do not, nor have I ever said your daughter deserves any of the horrible things others have said. But, I think you minimize her and Kayla’s role. Kayla was especially brutal towards Victoria. Awful how she degraded her during the beating. But, if their is truely more tape, the truth will come out. And, it will be much clearer to everyone.

Gompertz – You say you base your opinions on facts not emotions. Out of anger I have been called a fool, jerk, retard. Open your eyes. Goodbye

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November 12, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I also want to refer back to some points you made a while ago. You drew a distinction between civilized people and savages, and that is surely valid. You say the savage relies on “brute force, physical violence and fear” to get what he (or she) wants. True. I have known many of these savages, and they rule mainly through intimidation. I don’t work in banking, but many of my friends do, and they have the same story to tell, of people whom they characterize as savages in business suits. These savages are capable of observing the rules of civilized behavior if that is what it takes to get what they want,but they are quite ready to revert to more primitive methods if need be. These people are ruthless and tend to rise to the higher levels of management through intimidation. And here is my point, and I wonder if you agree or not. It seems these people are rightly called savages even if they never actually resort to physical coercion, because they could always resort to physical violence if necessary, and everyone knows it. And so, it is no longer necessary for the savage to exert himself physically, since the laws and customs of society are made to reward him just for succeeding in making others fear him.

then there are those like Joran van der Sloot, who is back in the news, luring young girls into slavery through deception, apparently without actually coercing anyone. He is certainly inflicting harm on unsuspecting victims. Wouldn’t he also qualify as a savage?

In my discussions with people who call themselves libertarians there seems to be a reluctance to disapprove of any behavior other than actual physical coercion, and I wonder what you think of that. Some have told me that no one need be intimidated by a “mere threat” and that no one should be deceived by anyone, since everyone of sound mind should be able to acquire the information to make correct decisions about any subject. Do you think these views correctly characterize the libertarian position, and if not, how do they need to be modified?

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November 12, 2008

gompertz

Amy, thank you for clarifying some things. I am sorry about your eyesight. Please remember that my reference to people who wish for horrible punishment was not meant to characterize your view, since we have already discussed that many times.

I did not direct any insults at you, at least I am not aware of any. Of course I have no reason to be angry, and yes it is easy for me to speak of reconciliation, as I sit here snug in my NY apartment with time to reflect calmly. Not that I don’t have problems, everyone has problems, they are serious enough but not spectacular or immediately threatening. So I can read my spiritual books and feel very peaceful, and that can be a trap too. Yes, I question my own commitments, and that is as it should be. I try not to be smug and complacent and I sure don’t think I have arrived at some kind of spiritual goal.

I just try to improve and keep going over these questions. I don’t think I have lessened my support for Victoria. And I think about this, how can “support” translate into anything that is truly useful? I come to these blogs with the rather extravagant hope that we-all of us-are really creating something of value here. Ideas are powerful and the Internet is so new, and its influence still expanding in unforeseeable ways. And when you have the application of this powerful new technology to the primitive savagery of cruel bullies doing what they have been doing since time immemorial, you have to step in and show that technology can serve the purpose of good also. I don’t know if I am making sense here.

My point about Victoria, I don’t speak about her much, not only because I don’t really know her, but because it is not right. What if I did know her, would I take advantage of that knowledge as people on Topix have been doing? Of course not, neither would you. I have characterized her as being peaceful, gentle, and good. What more can I say? What more can I do except try to be useful in alleviating the suffering of all the Victorias out there, you can find them everywhere. And, yes, I’m willing to bet that Mercades is also suffering, in a different way. As for the others, we don’t know.

I don’t get involved in discussions about the length of the tape, whether Kayla hit Victoria, I’m willing to wait, and we might get answers soon.

As for Christina, I am not naive. I don’t think about her motives, I don’t think anyone is pure, we are human. I am convinced that she is truly concerned for her daughters. Also, I’m sure she is under a lot of pressure, and I believe that these small-town sheriffs are not the pure John Wayne type heroes they are supposed to be. I think she does have reason to be truly afraid of this sheriff. I base it on my personal knowledge of how things operate in small towns. In the large cities, the corruption is real, but it is concentrated at higher levels of government,and doesn’t affect the regular citizens directly. But in smaller towns, well, the corruption is right there, at the local level. Anyway, I sit in my nice warm apartment and have time to reflect on everything peacefully, a lot of storms have blown away and left their marks on me, and new storms will come. I won’t presume to tell you what to do, you are always welcome to be here. I like to think that we are in the process of creating a new higher consciousness here, and it is not easy. Would you believe I have agonized over these blogs, I have regretted things I wrote and felt bad about what some have said to me? So I’m too sensitive, I guess, but that’s alright. But there are a lot of things about me I will not talk about, because they are not relevant here, and it is about Victoria and all the victims out there.

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November 13, 2008

gompertz

Now if Amy is reading this, and I hope she is, I mde some personal reflections about my ow condition in a spirit of reconciliation. But I think everyone needs to reflect, including Amy, about what they write and how it may be received by the one it is intended for. Brief and to the point, I would rather be called “fool” and “jerk” than to be characterized as “sly”, “manipulative” and “paranoid”. And that’s not an attack on anyone, and I am not defending Christina, who defends herself well by herself.

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November 13, 2008

christina Garcia

Thank you…I don’t have anything to say to that other person, I personally feel if i feed into his or her negativity any more it just pulls the focus off of the real vicitim here, my skin is thick, I do think its funny that only person that turned the tape over and the only person who is ready for thier sentence is the only one being picked on and attacked ( not by everyone on here) Lets put our focus back on where it should be..how Tori is doing and real justice being served. Enough already about me, yes I know I am the most hated person in the world, maybe even worse hated than my daughter. But as a person pointed out when the truth comes out in trial we shall see. As far as the 30 minute video just prooves my point even more about the Sheriff, it wasn’t that long and that’s why there never more released. The Sheriff is the one who released the videos both of them, and then media put it on the net.

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November 13, 2008

GregS

Gomphertz I don’t believe that con-artists, hackers, and intellectual manipulators are savages. These individuals are exploiiting the ignorance and stupidity of others for their own gain, and while this could be considered mean I don’t consider it savage and see it as fair game. The intellectually gifted should be able to get what they want using the power and force of their intellect, and as long as there is no threat of physical force, I’ve got no problem with it. Basically I’m a libertarian and I agree with the standard libertarian definition of force as “physical”. I don’t think we ought to sue each other over hurt feelings. And I do think that on some level, there will always be stronger and weaker individuals in any society as we cant all be equal.

I consider savages to be the people who rely on physical violence and fear to get what they want rather than deception, and I’m not endorsing deception but at least the individual who gets to the top using deception is highly intelligent. In the context of war deception is key, I’m sure you’ve read the art of war. Joran van der Sloot wouldn’t have been a problem if the girls he seduced through deception didn’t end up missing. I think all of us have to compete for the best women, and some men knowing they have nothing to offer, perhaps they don’t come from rich families, perhaps they aren’t as good looking as we are, and perhaps they don’t have good character, these sorts of guys have to rely on their deception ability just to reproduce at all, and I don’t view it as immoral to outsmart, persuade, or seduce someone into doing what you want them to do.

Physical violence is the only form of violence I wish to see ended because physical violence does not promote evolution, or progress, it simply brings us back into caveman status. I recognize that there will always be competition for resources and deception is necessary to win that competition. Intellect is a form of might that I can respect, violence is what weaker people resort to when they cannot win the war of ideas or win the duel of minds.

Just as some people who lose an argument just decide to take it to the physical level and beat the person up who won the argument. That is savage behavior.

Amyv, I’ll still be checking back here and posting here, so we shall see each other again.

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November 14, 2008

amyv

For my daughters sake and every other teenager out there, I would like to apologize to any one I made personal comments about.

Since, I am a big advocate for nonviolence both physical and mental, I went against my own rules. These are strictly adhered to in my home. My daugher and her friends know that I do not tolerate bullying, fighting or emotionally picking on another human being. If I see anyone exhibit this type of behavior they are no longer welcome.

And, I did the exact thing I am so against. You can have an opinion and not have to resort to expressing at all or in an ugly way.

I can be accused of thinking with emotion. We have discussed this before. I just expect everyone to be born with kindness and love for people. And, I agree this is not the case.

Kids learn by examples set my the adults around them. Since, I have zero tolerance for bullying, I need to practice what I preach.

Their is however things that have been said on this blog that I find confusing. Why is it that Victoria’s exboyfriend blogged about her alleged psychiatric problems and a few people took it as true and even stated they had suspected emotional problems with Victoria? Yet, Mercades boyfriend is being bashed and called a snake for allegations that he made.

Of course Mercades mother would know more about this by than anyone here. For those of us who don’t know him their has been a little bit of rush to judgement to say they didn’t like him from the minute they saw him on t.v. Is this not what we have been accused of with Mercades?

If the rumors spread about Victoria are true, which no one hear knows if they are, what a private issue to discuss that is no ones business and bears no relevance to this case.

We also have he said she said about whether Victoria every threatened these girls. So, I will reserve judgement on that as well. I do not believe their is factual proof of that one.

Also, the fact that these girls did not hit Victoria at the same time makes it no less brutal. And, I believe that it was April Cooper who hit Victoria when she tryed to get up off the couch. This was immediately following the brutal beating Brittini Hardcastle had just given her on the couch. This is on plain to see on the tape.

I agree that more than one girl took a turn filming. Victoria said Cara Murphy and Kayla Hassel both taped. I do not know why Cara Murphy was let off but, perhaps lack of evidence and for the fact that the victim specifically stated she and Mercades where the only two who did not hit her. But, we have already heard she will testify against the other girls.

Also, she was not in the car with the other girls who drove Victoria away from the house. But, as I have stated before I believe everyone their is guilty of a crime. So I do agree dismissal of all her charges was not appropriate.

I know a lot of this we have hashed over many times. But, the issues with some of the things coming out about Victoria are new. And since medical records are private, her exboyfriend has no prove to back up his words. So if we are going to be far to everyone, we must also disregard this as it is not a proven fact.

I have said many times Mercades was not the ring leader. That to me would be Brittini Hardcastle. But, they all broke laws to different degrees so the punishments must be fair.

I also wonder how the conclussion can be drawn from seeing the video what these girls planned on doing with this tape. To me personally it does not matter whether it was meant to be posted on youtube or used to further humiliate he victim by showing it to people. Both of these actions are equally disturbing to me.

I have not bashed any of these girls on this blog. I am just trying to be less emotional and asking questions to gather hard facts and not just heresay.

Hello Scott and Greg. Hello to everyone.

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November 15, 2008

gompertz

Amy, good to hear from you. I am sorry about my angry outbursts, it accomplishes nothing and leads me in the same direction as those who beat Victoria. Yes, it is easy to get emotional about what we saw on the video, and about the subsequent behavior of those who committed this act, their lack of remorse. I myself went through several stages, first a thirst for terrible forms of retribution, then swinging over to the other extreme of being very lenient, seeing them all as victims. As with everything one needs balance, finding the middle way. So balance means just punishments, and we have gone over that enough times, what a just sentence would be. It is easy to get deeply emotional about this case. So, that is precisely why it is so important to reflect on it, what it all means and what we can learn from it. Calm reflection doesn’t destroy emotion, but regulates it.

There are many aspects of this case that I don’t like to think about too much, simply because the evidence seems to point to different conclusions, like how long the tape is. What if it turns out that there is more tape, but less than thirty-five minutes? That kind of question will have to wait until the trial.

When I said about Jake the BF that I didn’t like him when I saw him, of course I wasn’t looking at his appearance, I can’t judge appearances. I’ve mentioned it before, and let me just reiterate that I generally take the side of the woman in thesematters, because it is usually(but not always) the woman that suffers the most abuse.Call it a personal bias, it’s based on my own life experiences. Seeing how young guys I knew treated their girlfriends, like getting them pregnant and running away, I found despicable. What could a girl do in the 60’s, without even the right to legal abortion? And society was not kind to unwed mothers in those days. And I don’t see Mercades as a threat, I think she was hurt and confused and that led to her weakness, her turning her back on her friend. You asked if people know what it’s like to be betrayed by a friend, yes I do know, it is terrible. But I think back at my own behavior sometimes, and I wasn’t always the best and most loyal friends, I too had my moments of weakness, so I can’t judge too harshly. Again, more will come out at the trial, hopefully.

As for the new allegations about Victoria it is despicable that people reveal these things publicly. I looked at the charges that are made, and of course I don’t know whether any of it is true, what are the motives of those making these charges, whether they are working for the defense or are they genuine. However, to me none of it makes any difference. There simply is no excuse, no mitigating factor, that lessens the evil of what was done to her, as you say. So there is no point in speculating any more about that.

I do hold out hope that all can be rehabilitated and get on with their lives. Even Brittany Hardcastle, who aroused so much revulsion, in me and most others, what if I say I hope for her recovery from the violent madness that possesses her? She looks so angry, and we don’t know if that anger comes from pain she suffered, maybe childhood abuse. So maybe there is hope that she can deal with the pain and turn it around. Of course that does not mean getting off from having to pay, and the sentence should be severe, but not excessively so. Putting a number on it, I don’t want to repeat it, we have given opinions before what a just punishment should be, I see no reason to change it.

Now at this point I need to stop and say good night, I just want say again that I apologize for my anger.

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November 15, 2008

amyv

Gompertz – Thank you for your apology and for accepting mine. We have always managed to have differing opionions on issues but maintained a civil attitude toward each others opinions.

I think if you blog immediately after watching the Good Morning America interview anger seems to take over our remarks. And, if their are anymore interviews I will blog after some reflection.

I watched the interview again this morning only for the purpose of making sure I was getting facts straight. I try to avoid watching the tape at all but, it was part of the interview. I was looking to see if they were singling Mercades out. What I saw was they showed her picture at the beginning and said it had occured at her house. We all know this to be a fact. However, they never called her the ring leader and when showing the video did not focus on her but the part where the beatings were taking place.

I did not feel that they focused on her anymore than any other teenager involved in this crime. Certainly Victoria and her parents did not mention her by name at all.

Also, much has been made of the fact that this beating was a result of trash talking on the internet. However, very little is mentioned on the tape it self about that fact. Much more is said about boys. Their were many, many remarks to the victim about boys and a key word used to initiate the beating was the name of a boy.

So, when Victoria stated in her interview that she thought it was over boys I believe she is 100 percent correct. The video it self supports this theory heavily. I also do believe their was a lot of jealousy going on with these girls that beat her up.

I think we do go by past experiences a lot when making conclusions about others. But, in recent experiences in my life I have a guy friend that is beaten up by his girlfriend. And they are all adults. So I don’t believe the man or boy is always the one to blame. I am not sure in this case as we do not have enough evidence.

Once again god bless Victoria and her family they are truely remarkable. After what she was put through, they have all maintained dignity and have displayed courage in what must be one of the most heart breaking times in their lives. I will continue to keep them in my prays.

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November 15, 2008

christina Garcia

Have we ever thought that maybe the media might not be singling her out anymore, because they don’t want to find thier names under the Sheriff’s in Federal Court? They seen what happened to him after he lied and singled Mercades out. But up until now, they have singled her out terribly, airing Mercades’ mugshot on one side on the screen while airing the beating in the other, as to say mercades was Brittany. I don’t need to explain this, everyone saw these videos.

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November 15, 2008

Garland

I wholeheartly agree with you, Gompertz &amp Amy. Victoria’s lifestyle has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her whatsoever. I can’t understand why the defendant’s lawyers would go &amp do such a thing like that. Heartless, &amp cruel.

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November 15, 2008

Garland

Plus it’s ridiculous of some posters such as Mocral68 &amp Riverwater1 of what they’re posting about Victoria here:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story…

I’m sorry, but people need to STOP bashing her. I don’t care what is going on in her lifestyle or what happened, but people need to STOP trying to justify what happened to her because of her alleged lifestyle. She certainly DID NOT deserve what happened to her. They need to grow up &amp get lives already. If they don’t have anything to say nice about her, don’t say anything at all.

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November 15, 2008

gompertz

As for the GMA video. I only saw it once, and I couldn’t find the second one at all. I wanted to see the first one again, I may be wrong, but did they mention Mercades” name when they showed her picture? I don’t think they mentioned the names of the others. It doesn’t seem like much, but since the whole segment was supposed to be about Victoria and how she feels, that’s where the focus was, as it should be. They just showed enough of the video to refresh people’s minds. And the way they showed the picture of Mercades was to show her face clearly, even if just for a moment. These things can be subtle, but the media know what they are doing, they know how to use psychology to influence people. We all know about subliminal advertising, right? I wish I could have seen the GMA story again, but I didnt get the chance. Still, I am left with the impression that, if I had nothing else to go on except that GMA segment, Mercades is the only one of the five thatI could pick out of a lineup)

And of course Victoria did not say things that should be left to the trial.

The allegations that flared up about her might tempt me to start a whole new line of speculations, like what if they are true, or what if they are not true, etc. But I’d rather leave it alone. Speculations like that would only serve to allow me to demonstrate my cleverness in constructing hypotheses, and that wouldn’t help anyone.

As for the BF issue, as I said I go by my experiences, including my own adventures, and I have encountered really vicious violent women. Still, there are many more men who fit that description, and while abuse goes both ways, the aggressor is far more likely to be the man. I guess we have to blame biology for that. So, for the present let’s just say I have a gut feeling that Mercades is not a violent person. I look at those mug shots taken back at the time it happened, and I try to figure out what I see in the eyes of the people there. In BH, I see someone who is not just momentarily angry, but whose anger is perpetual. Maybe behind the anger is some deep pain, we don’t know. With BM it’s as if she is working on her image, perhaps trying to look pleasant for the camera. Again, just an impression. AC, from the picture, seems defiant and comfortable with the tough-girl image. What about Mercades? Well, that first impression was, it is as if she is asking herself, “How the heck did I get here?” I”m not a psychic, but that is what I felt. And BTW don’t juries make decisions on the basis of gut feelings? Sure, the trial will reveal a lot more information to aid the jury in making a fair and balanced decision, but intuition still has its place, and judges encourage juries to use every means at their disposal, including feelings and past experiences. Anyway, there’s my opinion, and anyone is free to disagree.

Opinionsaside, I think it is beyond dispute that the media have been unfair to Mercades. They have gone way beyond the available evidence to convict her in the court of public opinion. Where the documents showed that she had acted inappropriately, the reports exaggerated the degree of danger she posed to her “targets.” And the evidence shows that Mercades had her reasons to be angry. That’s how it is with people who have been in relationships, and some people are adversely affected when the relationship goes bad while others move on without apparent bad feelings. In some cases, it is just that people are different, but in this case, there is evidence that the BF was not blameless. I may be wrong, but I think that evidence is also available to the public?

So anyway, looking forward to the trial, and there should be a pre-trial hearing again this week. What happens with that, might tell us if we can finally expect to get the trial done any time soon. If the judge keeps granting more and more delays, we might not get any resolution until after the end of President Sarah Palin’s second term. LOL

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November 15, 2008

gompertz

Garland, the attacks on Victoria we have seen the last few days are really terrible. We just don’t know if the allegations have any basis in truth, but even if they do, it shouldn’t matter. Unfortunately this type of thing might actually work with some jurors, and that’s what the defense attorneys are hoping for. The video is simply too clear to allow of alternate interpretations, so all they are left with is attacking the victim’s character. They might try for a plea deal, but SAO isn’t offering any. And I really don’t think either the defense or the prosecution cares about the victim, and that is tragic.

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November 15, 2008

christina Garcia

I can only hope Mercades’ attorney is not one of them…and hey I thougt her ex was the one who brought this jumk, is it really the defense?

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November 15, 2008

Scott

Amy, you use the key word alleged in one of your posts about Tori’s alleged psychological condition according to her alleged ex boyfriend. If it’s true that this guy was her boyfriend and revealed such personal and private information about her on the internet then he really wanted to embarrass her. Tori needs to choose her boyfriends, girlfriends and friends more carefully in the future.

And Amy, it was Hardcastle who pummeled Tori on the couch and then punched her in the left eye as she got up from the couch.

P.S. – On a side note I woudln’t expect the trial to begin until sometime in 2009. And that’s dissapointing.

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November 15, 2008

amyv

Gompertz – It is strange how peoples perceptions are different. I saw Mercades picture only briefly on GMA and it was only to state that the incident happened at her house.
I like to think that every thing is so corrupt that we are now being shown subliminal messages. I could not have picked her or any of the other girls out in a line up after this interview. Perhaps your able to remember details better than I.

Since their really has not been much in the media about this subject lately it is hard to say if they have any hidden agendas. But, I really don’t know what could be gained by this.

Surely good morning america could not know this sheriff. Or his power in this country would be terribly concerning. As for them learning a lesson from what the sheriff said, has that case gone to court? I have seen nothing new on that either. As far as my limited information nothing has been done to him to scare off any attempt to make Mercades out to look bad. Please let me know if he has been convicted of anything or reprimanded as I do not go to a lot of the other blogs. So just as we do not know the out come of these girls trial, we can not perdict how the law suit will go either.

Off subject but I just read that Casey Anthony is sueing Gonzalez the woman she claimed kidnapped her child. She says it is causing her embarassment and the woman is harrassing her. I don’t know why my jaw dropped over that one. You can sue anyone for anything these days. Even if you are the one who potentialy commited a crime. This woman can not even get a job because of this girl. If it wasn’t so ridiculous it would be laughable. Maybe this is why the courts are so backed up because of frivilous law suits and they can not give a speedy trial to a victim who deserves one.

Gompertz – It is odd how different peoples perceptions can be. When I first saw these girls pictures something struck me about Britney Mayes. Sorry if the spelling of her first name is incorrect. I am tired and did not look it up.
Her face looks so sweet and innocent and I thought I saw something in her eyes that I did not see in the others. Then I found out she was the one making those disgusting noises on the tape, the Oh yes baby. Also, the victim stated she was one of the girls who hit her.

It is funny how different faces effect different peoples perceptions. I do agree Hardcastle and Cooper both have a hardness to their faces. But, Kayle who does not was one of the most hateful, at least verbally on the tape. So looks can definitely be deceiving.

Garland – I totally agree wth you. I will not even go on these web sites you have mentioned because I do not want to hear any shape or form of bashing the victim. period. So perhaps when they start that we should stick to sites that refrain from negative talk in any way of these girl because she is one true victim in this case without any disputing.

It would be very disturbing if the defense attornies were behind these comments. Their seems to be a new conspiracy popping up to shed the victim in a horrile iight. So, perhaps I have been blind to the conspiracies in this case are beyond any I have seen.

But, I truely doubt that this tactic will be tolerated by any jury. This would be the worst defense for these girls and could cost them dearly. So for everyone involved in this case any mention of any problems the victim was having before this incident, bears no weight on the horror she was put through. If any of these girls were my daughter I would refuse to let them use this as a defense. It shows a further lack of any remorse from the defendants. It would also indicate no lessons have been learned by them that this was horrific behavior and is criminal. So this is a very bad stradegy on anyone involved in it.

I am certain with anyone who makes such remarks, their are personal and hidden agendas. I do not know if the victim still lives in this town but, if I were her family I would try to get out. It sounds like a very dangerous place for adults and teenagers to be living with the level of corruption. I have heard more conspiracy theories on this case then in the O.J. simpson trial.

Also, if jurors do make decisions based on innocence and looks that would be a shame. But, Victoria Lindsay is a very attractive young lady and very innocent looking as well. So, again this may not be to their favor as the jealousy issue would be much more easily believed. Good night all.

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November 15, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I can’t remember for sure the details about the GMA video, I wonder if anyone else had the same impression I had about what I saw, or think I saw. Maybe the video is shown more often in Florida than NY, that would make sense. But as I recall, Mercades was the only one whose picture was shown like a “mug shot” if only for a second, and the others more indistinctly, but I’m not sure. That doesn’t mean that GMA or any part of the media is part of a conspiracy. I think the trouble for Mercades started with the way the matter was originally reported by the sheriff, and that original impression was never corrected.

The first question is, how did the original reports distort the facts? And what facts were distorted? Well, that’s easy to answer. Right now I’m looking at the results of keying in “mercades nichols” on a google search. Here is one entry: “Myspace of Mercades Nichols {the girl who kidnapped and beat Victoria Lindsay}” … another starts like this: “Mercades Nichols is one of the six teenage girls who beat up Victoria Lindsay”(Zimbio)…One more example by Jonathan Turley from Aug. 9:”Mercades Nichols, 17, gained international infamy when a video showed her participating in the ambushing and beating of cheerleader Victoria Lindsay…” Then there are a number of “ringleader” references.I realize you could look these up yourself, but I like to practice my typing, I need improvement. By now we know that, whatever Mercades’ level of participation was, she did not hit Victoria, and she was no ringleader. So these reports are untruthful or at best deceptive.

So the second question is why the media keep reporting these untruths. I think it’s just laziness, or inertia. The reporters who write the reports don’t do any fact checking, they simply copy what someone else has written. And the person they copy from didn’t verify anything either, and so on back to the original statement, and since the original statement has the aura of authority coming from an official report, it becomes the “gospel truth.” So, let me be clear about this, I don’t think the media have it in for anyone, but they are very irresponsible and don’t bother to check their sources. That’s why those in authority have such a tremendous power to decide what the public is told. It should be apparent that I have become very cynical about people in authority. I’ve experienced too much of the dishonesty of higher-ups to ever trust any of them.

As for Casey Anthony. I lost interest in that long ago. Like the Styacey Petersen case and Natalie Holloway and countless similar cases that lead nowhere, I long for the old days when you held the criminals feet to the fire until they confessed, and saved everyone time and money.

As for the accusations against Victoria there are several that have surfaced the last few days. One was from someone who claimed to be an old boyfriend, and he brought up an awful lot of filth. If he’s lying, that is despicable. And if he’s telling the truth that’s despicable too. The things he brings up are nasty, and if she really was his girlfriend it only proves that he is a pathetic,vindictive little man who can’t handle rejection, and some people on the other blog told him to just go away and grow up. Unfortunately that is all too common these days, people who are feeling the pain of a love affair that ended badly and exposing things that should remain private.

There were other accusations, the ones for which Garland provided the links, and these involved claims that Victoria was violent toward someone’s daughter. What astonished me is that the claim here was that Victoria’s alleged violence occured after she was beaten. Well, Greg said it several times, those like Victoria who are victimized by bullies might become bullies themselves. If true it only compounds the horror of what was done to her, and if it’s not true, let’s hope the courts deal with these allegations properly. But these people are lining up to testify for the defense.

All indications are that this will be a messy trial, and I fear the outcome will not be satisfactory. I hope I’m wrong. gn

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November 15, 2008

amyv

Scott – Hello. Yes this girl does need to find some new friends. If this is truely an ex-boyfriend that said this she is truely hanging around some people she desperately needs to stay away from. Bad bunch.

Although, I do not like watchng the video I will watch it again later. I do know Brittini Was beating her bad on the couch maybe I missed punch when she go up. But, then April must have started up immediately after that because she beat her bad right after the couch.

Gompertz – They have not been playing the video down here in Florida. Of course at first they did. You can google GMA interview with Victoria Lindsay and rewatch the interview.

I wanted to make sure I got my fact straight. The picture of Mercedes was very brief. They did show all the girls as a group. As I stated before she was not refered as the ringleader. Just stated it happened at her house and that was it.
Which is undisputed.

The media did wrongly accuse Mercades as the ringleader but anyone that has the facts knows this is not true. That has not been reported lately. They have just not taken the originals
off the internet.

I do not even bother to respond to anyone that refers to the victims character. They are not worth reasoning with. And frankly it makes no difference to the crime. The trial should have already been over. Bashing the victim will definitely not benefit these girls. And witness to her behavior that will bash her will not go over with a jury well. It just is not important because it justifies nothing that happened to her.

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November 16, 2008

Scott

Yes Amy, Brittini beat Tori on the couch. Tori was pinned down on the couch and was covering her face with her hands and Brittini pulled a defensles Tori’s hands off her face and puched her. Tori rolled off the couch partley due to the momentum of the left hook Britttini hit her with and when she was getting up Brittini socked Tori in her left eye socket. Then as Tori made her way to the front door April greeted her with a beating that oddly enough focused on Tori’s back and shoulders. It was as if April was trying to avoid hitting Tori in her face or head at that time. If you watch the video I think you’ll notice that too.

And Amy, Casey Anthony? Enough said. ) What a terrible human being.

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November 16, 2008

Garland

Amy wrote:

(If any of these girls were my daughter I would refuse to let them use this as a defense. It shows a further lack of any remorse from the defendants. It would also indicate no lessons have been learned by them that this was horrific behavior and is criminal. So this is a very bad strategy on anyone involved in it.

I am certain with anyone who makes such remarks, their are personal and hidden agendas. I do not know if the victim still lives in this town but, if I were her family I would try to get out. It sounds like a very dangerous place for adults and teenagers to be living with the level of corruption.)

So true, Amy. Instead of holding the defendants accountable &amp to take responsibility for what these girls have done, what do they do? They want to defame Victoria’s character by using her alleged lifestyle. That’s just being selfish &amp cowardly. I honestly believe that Victoria needs to start fresh &amp new again, in another town just so that she won’t have to deal with this mess anymore.

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November 16, 2008

christina Garcia

Amyv….nice touch (off topic) how dare you even bring the Casey Anthony case in here and follow up by saying you can sue for anything…under the headlines that I am sueing Grady Judd, you may have others tricked into listening to your trickery, but not me. I now know you are part of the conspiracy. But you nor The Sheriff will stop me for fighting for whats right.

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November 16, 2008

christina Garcia

Look, if anyone has experienced Tori’s behavior its my family, while I already knew alot about what people are saying about her, this is not the time to bring such horrific attention to her character flaws. The ex is probably like Jake the Snake whom saw a way to ambarres (ms) someone who rejected him. I don’t see why you guys as a group here don’t just totally refraim from even speaking about the other site. Even if its for arguement sake, you’re still speaking about the negativity right? If you can’t stop those people from talking, just stay over here talking only positive about the victim. Look, I’ve known since before the incident how Tori was but I have been very observed and careful with my knowledge, Mercades attorney had told me some questions the others asked Tori, which were so awful I just wont repeat them PERIOD! Way off track and would have nothing to do with the beating, I mean not even about her being a bully, nothing to do with violence : ( I made sure her ATT didn’t follow those types of questions and she didn’t. But like I said I think you guys should just ignore them as if they were’nt there. Have you ever heard the saying ” If you ignore something long enough it will go away” ? Obviously you guys know that the defense team can’t just go in and say ” isn’t it true you have always been a perfect angel”…I mean its thier job to defend but dam…some of those questions were just stupid.and way out of line.

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November 16, 2008

gompertz

Hi everyone. Of course you are right Christina, about ignoring the allegations. We need to remember also that similar allegations appeared on this blog about six months ago, and those allegations were demonstrated to be false.

As for the tactics of the lawyers, I think that April Cooper’s lawyer is taking the lead and the others are following him. I am happy to hear that Mercades’ attorney is taking a different approach. Mercades can get a fair verdict without resorting to dirty tricks. And, yes, I think she is a good person and the judge and jury will take that into account.

Now as for bringing in the Casey Anthony case. Christina, you and Amy are both under a great deal of pressure, though maybe for different reasons. I have no inclination to defend or accuse anyone of anything here, I’ll just add a few remarks about why there is no comparison at all between that tragedy and the case here. First of all, Casey Anthony is a proven liar who has misled investigators from the beginning and wasted a lot of public time and money. Second, the law suit against someone named Zenaida Gonzales(not sure of the spelling) is frivolous, since that person never even met C.A. Anyway, it’s all there on the Orlando Sentinel web site. People has brought it up here several times, and yes it is off topic but the case has attracted so much attention it gets mentioned here sometimes. Could the reference that was made here to “anyone can sue for anything” be just a reference to that Casey Anthony case? I don’t think anyone here thinks the lawsuit against the sheriff is comparable to that, at least that’s my impression.

Can everyone here agree that there is reason to be suspicious of the sheriff’s intentions? Most of us don’t know all the facts about that case, but I know enough about the corruption that is prevalent in law enforcement. The best policy would be to admit that there is a lot we don’t know about that case, just like the case involving the beating, and that there are more things to be revealed. I do think the case against the sheriff has merit and won’t be dismissed but will lead to a conclusion.

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November 16, 2008

amyv

Gompertz – Thank you for your fair assessment of my comment. Of course their is no comparision between the Casey Anthony case and this one. I truely would never compare that case to this one. It is very true they have solid proof that mother has lied.

Since we have blogged on the topic about the slowness of our court system, I only used that to show that this is why they get bogged down. I know some will not believe me, but I am not a liar. We all have jumped to this blog because of the distasteful things that were said on others. We managed to keep it civil when others did not.

There are many times when I do not consider the fact that this is under one particular portion of the case since, we discuss the case as a whole. So my reference to the frivilous law suit this girl has filed was not meant to imply Mercades mothers is. It may very well have merit.

This is my frustration. I am not part of any conspiracy theory. I am just an advocate for victims. And, when more and more accuastions are made about how far the conspiracy theory reaches it becomes more unbelieveable to me personaly. Especialy, since I myself have now been accused of being part of it.

I have said on many occasions I do not know the sheriff. I do not know the teenagers involved. I am just a mother of a teenage daughter who would like to prevent future violence. Or lessen as it is becoming increasinly worse. I just want them to grow up in a safer environment and that is my only agenda. And if reasonble punishment is given out that would show these actions are unacceptable. And please note I said reasonable. Just as I do not believe in life in prison, which is ridiculous, I believe that punishment must be dealt out to all girls involved. And, yes that inclues Cara Murphy. I do believe her charges should not have been dropped. She was present. She did participate even though she did not physicaly hurt the victim. Their is such a thing as conspiracy to commit a crime even though you are not the one who was involved in the actual beating.

I to respect the Mercades lawyer for not using slandering tactics against the victim. Of course the lawyers job is to defend their client. But, the reference to whether Victoria is an angel or not is irrelevant. Since we all know no one is an angel, this would be a ridiculous statement for an attorney to make.

The questions that should be asked of Victoria should be based solely on the attack itself. Not on any aspect of her character since we all agree does not matter in this case. And, does not bear weight on what was done to her since their is not excuse.

Garland – Hello. I agree with you whole heartedly. Even more so now that I have been accused of trickery in this case.

I am sure their are good and bad in this town as their are everywhere. However, much has been made of the fact that the sheriff is corrupt. Teenagers are treated unfairly. And, bullying seems to run rampid their. But, I will not condemn everyone their since that would be totally unfair on my part.

Gompertz – Once again thank you for not jumping to conclusions about my intentions. I may have a different perspective of law enforcement, as I have not been exposed to some of the situations you may have been.

Therefore, it is hard to come to hasty conclusions as their are still a lot of personal experiences and emotions involved in forming opinions on the sheriff. Yes, I do not dispute the fact that the sheriff should have gotten his facts straight about the case before going public. Although, I agree with some of his assessments, he did get the fact wrong that all of the girls hit the victim and we know now two of them did not. As for any further conspiracy, we will let the courts decide that as we do not have enough of the details.

Just as we have been asked to be fair to the accused, I will refrain from using remarks about the boy Jake since I do not have all the facts on that one either. Perhaps if some documents can be scanned we will have factual evidence he is part of the corruption. I refuse to call him by the nick name adopted for him because I simply am trying to be fair. And, am trying to stick more to facts, than emotions. I have come a long way. lol. Not quit all the way their yet.

Gompertz – please do not take but, we hav all agreed name calling is not constructive in this case, Why is it acceptable to call this boy a name. Should we not also give him the benefit of the doubt. As, we have been asked to give some of these teenage girls?

Good night all.

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November 16, 2008

gompertz

Amy, you bring up an important point that everyone has jumped over to this one blog and all kinds of things get discussed here on all kinds of subjects. Look at my last discussion with Greg about libertarianism, that has no direct connection with this case. As for bringing up Casey Anthony it has been brought up here and on Topix a few times. And you live not far away from where that is happening, right?

Although I have no children of my own, I have had many friends who went through the agony of raising kids only to see them get in trouble, in spite of their best efforts. I have seen good people go to pieces because their kids wound up in prison for drugs or violence. For Victoria’s parents as well as the parents of all the accused, it must be horrible. I’ve discussed this case with friends and coworkers and the consensus is that no one would like their kids to be either the victim or the victimizer. And although Mercades’ mother is strong and courageous this case must be taking a terrible toll on her.

Tonight MSNBC rebroadcast the “Teens Gone Wild” program which dealt with the Lakeland case, among others. I also found the GMA interview on google and even saw part of the Insider interview. So, the media are reviving interest in this in time for the trial, and I think the pretrial is still on for Tuesday. Those involved in the case must be feeling the tension mounting and I think we need to consider that.

Now, I wanted to say something about the nickname of the BF. It is not for me to use names, but those directly involved have that right I think. As for my negative opinion of him, it is just an opinion and not an indictment, though I hope a jury gets the chance to clear matters up. I consider the statements by Mercades’ grandmother, that it was a mutually abusive relationship to be significant, and shows that he was not blameless. I do have the old-fashioned belief that a man must be strong enough, physically and mentally, to resist the urge to hit back at his girlfriend, even if she hits him. Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t he a marine? I could go on and on about this subject, and I admit a lot of it is a kind of bias in favor of women, but there is also the statistical evidence that men are much more likely to be the aggressor(though not always). Also while I find no confirmtion of the assertion that Mercades was pregnant I think it is still true (in spite of some recent claims to the contrary) that only women bear that particular burden. And while it is not at all relevant, I want to say I loved the movie Juno. 🙂

As for the evils I have seen in the court system, I have been on juries and I have been a plaintiff in civil trials, and I can attest to the fact that lawyers are unscrupulous and look out only for themselves. I have been ripped off by lawyers that were supposed to be working for me, but I would not dream of giving any details on a public forum. There is a very real chance that some of these people would retaliate if I named names and I know I am not being paranoid or melodramatic about this, because that is how they operate. I suppose that is true everywhere when it comes to people in the courts and law enforcement,but in NY the corruption also extends to doctors and hospital workers, at least when it comes to falsifying documents, but again I am not giving any details. And forget about reporting it to anyone, it won’t help and it could hurt. I suppose in Florida at least the medical personnel are trustworthy, I’m just guessing. Anyway that’s been my experience and soon we may all have more reliable evidence to decide.

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November 17, 2008

GregS

Gomp the corruption you speak of is real but it’s not always as simple as being a bunch of random individuals and cliques. We are talking about gangs, clans, mafias and brotherhoods. Thousands of individuals in strategic positions of influence, and if you attack one you attack all. The lawyers you speak of if you make an enemy out of one of them, they can go back to their country club, or fraternity and do something about it, and in the internet age they probably just have a big mailing list with all the most influential people on it.

Yes doctors are corrupt to so you have to worry about doctors giving you deliberate misdiagnoses, and you also have to worry about the judges, if you piss off the wrong person and get the wrong judge that happens to be in the fraternity or country club then you are screwed twice, and of course the jury could also have members of the fraternity on it and if you live in a small town its much worse, and if you go to prison some of the people in there could be in the fraternity and then you are screwed triple.

If you piss off a powerful individual it’s like dealing with the mafia, you aren’t safe anywhere really and can’t trust any profession because they’ll have people in every profession out to get you. This is a problem mainly with small towns like Polk County, but it’s also like that in Hollywood, and in New York, where all the powerful families are interconnected and if you aren’t connected you don’t want to make enemies of someone who is.

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November 17, 2008

GregS

If you want to know how corrupt things can get in small towns look up D.C. Stephenson, the most powerful man in Indiana in the 1920s. He was also the Klan grand dragon. (250,000 members, 1 in 3 of all males in Indiana at the time)

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November 17, 2008

christina Garcia

Amyv:

My comment about ” Isn’t it true you’re an angel” was to prove that very point that they wouldn’t be asking that. I don’t wish to argue with you or anyone else about the point I made. Because that is only drawing in more negativity, and I simply don’t want anymore. Look, I don’t know who you are, but I appreciate you deciding to refraim from judging until carefully thinking as you had posted earlier. I can see that you are trying to look at both sides, and you know you may never reach the entirety of understanding our side as well, but at least you’re trying. I admire that in you, you are very opionated like yours truely. That may be why we butt heads more.In your last post I seen a person that is trying to see both sides, and respecting that in fact maybe I do have a case, and maybe we were mistreated. Thank you. Your post touched me this morning. I read it this morning and it took this long to respond because I was thinking, wow this person really turned around. I wish I had a scaneer to show you and the others what you were talking about, I have the reports right here on my desk : ( I also sent someone on here a link to see that ” Jake the Snake” was posting comments on her myspace well after the injuction. With all due respect I feel I have earned the right to call him that. That is what I called him when they were together, and I’ll continue. I never supported thier relationship because I am a very good judge of character and I knew that’s what he was. And for the record this kid is only 17 and he is posing as a Marine man, which he is not. I don’t think he’s make it there for 2 hours much less come out a Marine. My father was a Coperal ( ms I’m sure) in the Marines, now that is something to be proud of. Let me share with you someone who had dignity and respect, when I use to brag about my dad having that, he said oh please don’t say that sweetie, because the levels are different now, and when I was in the Marines a Corperal wasn’t as high in ranking as now. When I bragged about him owning his own construction company he’d say ” don’t say that, say I am President of the company. haha he was something else, and Mercades was raised around people of this nature. Not a bunch of dope heads that didn’t care about her, I took good care of her. And Mayv I’m sorry if you don’t want to be compared to my problems, but I feel from my heart I need to say this..My father died in 2001 of stomach cancer, he always took good care of himself, no smoking, drinking, or drugs. He took like 30 vitamins a day, it was crazy, you could smell them when you walked in his house. And the lord still took him from us, I was a mess. I was pregnant so I had to put my feelings aside for 9 months, for no stress on the baby ( Kalina) but it all caught up with me after, the doctors put me on a list of meds. like at least 7, other dotors would ask me how I walked into thier office when I told them what all I was taking. I was like a zomby! I don’t know how sick your dad is, but if you need any support in this matter I am here. ok? I know you probably don’t want it, but seriously the case aside…its very hard taking care of a sick parent much more losing one : *( my heart goes out to you. I hope all his business affairs didn’t get dropped in your lap like mine. I had no siblings to share the burden. You’re not alone hon.

Peace.

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November 17, 2008

Amyv

Christinia – I do very much appreciate your offer of support with my father. I have always been daddys little girl. I believe me and you are around the same age. But, you never out grow that feeling of wanting to have your parents live forever. So from one daughter of a cancer victim to another thank your kindness. This truely has been one of the most difficult times in my life.
Fortunately, I do have the support of my brothers and sisters but I so cling to my father I want to be the only one to take care of him.
It is tough with the role reversal.

You did make me laugh when you said we were both stubborn woman as I could not agree more.
It is a hard traiit to keep under control isn’t it?
But, it shows we have courage to over come obstacles and are not easily beaten down.

I absolutely would not want to be in the shoes of any parent in this situation. Whether it would be the victim or the girls charged. It must be like being on a roller coaster. That is why believe I think for all of your sakes, especialy the girls they need to stop postponing the trials. It unnecessarilly causes added stress to an already incredibly tense situation for everyone involved. Their needs to be some closure.

Gompertz – Yes I do live close of the Caylee Anthony case. It is on the news continuously.
It is so heartbreaking. I can not imagine what her parents are going through. That has got to be the most awful situation possible. You see fully how they grief over their granddaughter but, as any parent would stick by their daughter. My heart breaks for them.

Christinia – We are both mothers of teenage daughters and I am sure you have seen how the bullying and trash talking is beyond control. I so wish we could have children that would understand that this can make their lives so miserable, it is negative energy and it can have some horrible consequences.

I hate to say what if but, what if one of those blows did kill the victim. Whether intentional or not these girls would have been charged with murder. And I truelly do not think anyone of these girls every had that in mind. Although, I think Brittini Hardcastle reallly did not care how much damage she inflicted.

So even though we may not agree on everything I believe the real issue in this case is what do we do to prevent violence among teens. I wish their was an easy answer. Their just isn’t one.

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November 17, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv…We couldn’t agree more about the trial. Mercades is ready, we call her attorney everyday. It has gotten so bad that her attorney has now advised me that she does not have to speak to me..??wth?? I was so mad, but I have already paid her cash money : ( what can I do? She has given us a little clue that no prison time will be involved for Mercades. The pre trial is tomorrow and hopefully they negotiate tomorrow too. I think we all know why the other are pro longing the case, but my family wants this crap over with. : ( Mercades wants to be sentenced, do her sentence, and go on with her life. Good Luck Amy and I’ll pray for your daddy. ( I was daddy’s lil girl too) I understand completely. I don’t know how sick he is, but I sent my dad to Mexico for Leatril treatments it prolonged his life 6 months, and if we had caught it earlier it could’ve saved his life. The hospital is in Tiajuana

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November 18, 2008

LawAndOrder

An article was posted in the Lakeland Ledger last night. The portion pertinent to Mercades:

“Lindsay spoke about how her close friendship with Mercades Nichols, 17, who is also charged in the case, began to deteriorate. She said she refused to help Nichols break up a relationship between Nichols’ ex-boyfriend and a girl he was dating.

“It kind of went downhill from there,” Lindsay said.

Nichols was jealous, she said, because Lindsay had more friends than Nichols did. Before the beating, Lindsay also recalled how the girls were yelling at her about how many “guy friends” she has.

Lindsay said there was more of the March 30 beating that was filmed but must have been destroyed later.”

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November 18, 2008

LawAndOrder

“Sources” tell Orlando’s Fox 35 that plea deals “may” happen.

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November 18, 2008

Amyv

I have had my doubts from the beginning that this case was about trash talking. Since, it was mentioned on the video, the talk about boys was much more prevelant. I think from what we see on the tape, there is more than enough evidence than this was definately the motive behind this beating. A whole lot of jealousy going on. That is quite clear between April, Brittini and Kayla. Of could course the other Brittany find it was satisfying to make disgusting noises, Cara Murphy and Mercades were silent so motive there not a clear. Although, since the victim has stated I believe it to be true.

Christinia – Thank you once again for concern for my father. We do not get the final results until Monday and optionions will be made to us then. Although, I am dreading this, The waiting is much worse.

I am not law savy but, why did they wait so long to offer plea deals? I just don’t understand the whole court system in general. We make much about corruption in police departments but, boy these lawyers, once again not all, really do not look out sometime for the benefits of their client.
Since, this is a high profile case, their is free media attention for some of them.

I hope if plea deals are offered, the punishment fits the crime. Good luck to Victoria if she has to be precent today. Dont know about all of these pretrials. She has truely been put through enough.

All of us agree despite our differences that closer for this case is long over due. And, for the families on both sides the waiting is worse. If you face things head on and know what you are dealing with, it is much better than being left in limbo Even the out come may not be satisfactory for everyone involved it needs to be over.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Plea deals might mean that we will see a fair resolution of this case with appropriate sentences, and would eliminate the possibility of excessively harsh punishment like life imprisonment. I wonder, though, whether the offer of a plea deal has anything to do with the defendants showing any remorse? Have they really learned anything or do they still think it’s about not getting caught?

Amy and Christina, it is difficult to deal with the illness and death of one’s parents. Having lost both my parents long ago, I know how hard it is. You never really get over it, but I know both of you have the strength to continue doing your best. And you do have something important to live for, and that is to provide love and guidance for your children.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

It isn’t surprising that the trouble was mostly about boys and popularity. Girls are driven by the urge to emulate the artificial images of feminine beauty created by the advertising industry. How much needless anxiety do girls feel because they compare themselves to someone else’s ideal of beauty. This anxiety can be so great that it leads to violence as we see in this case and many others.

I think parents, especially mothers, can help a great deal by showing that there are alternatives to accepting the synthetic images of advertising. But a lot more is needed, like radically reforming the education system and restoring a sense of community in which everyone can feel valued for their own merits. Maybe this well-publicized case can wake people up to the need for social change.

Specifically, there is no reason why any of these girls,victim and defendants, can’t find husbands who love and appreciate them, or fulfillment through a career. Why is it that they seem to place so little value on these things that they prefer to dissipate their lives in casual sex, drinking and violence? Of course the individuals are responsible for their bad choices, but that does not absolve the education system, the advertising industry and the entertainment industry, and these are social issues that must be dealt with.

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November 18, 2008

christina garcia

I hope that post was untrue about the ledger, I’m going to look it up now, sorry guys I can’t allow my kid to be trashed even more, all I’m going to say is that this comment wasn’t brought up about Mercades before….hmm..only after Jake shared his tragic story =-rolling eyes- If she is lieing on Mercades I will have to excuse myself from this blog as it would be hypocritical for me to defend my daughter’s name from these lies but yet be on here supporting Tori. I would not be being honest, and I have formed a respect for every llast person on here.. Please just understand the position I am in.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Hey Christina, I’m not sure you’ve spoken about this but how do you feel with serious charges still pending for Mercades who did not hit Tori but all charges were dropped for Cara Murphy who also did not hit Tori? It doesn’t seem fair.

I want there to be a trial after all the absurd waiting. I don’t want plea deals offered at this point. But if there are plea deal offered it will make the prosecution look bad because they could have offered pea deal several months ago.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

I read an article this morning from The Ledger about Tori’s recent deposition. The Ledger disclosed the arrest records of a juvenile. That’s supposed to be private information. I’m not surprised at anything The Ledger does. That information about Tori was meant to be private not public. It’s very strange how juvenile’s are treated in Florida. Tori needs to get help for her anger and other issues and I hope she has and that’s part of the reason she did not want to fight. But Tori has been torpedoed by the media, lawyers and girls she’s known for years. How can she ever trust anyone again?

Why would Tori’s attorney allow her to give deposition about her arrests when that information about a juvenile is confidential? Whose side are they on? It’s like Tori is trying to give the defense ammunition to help the defendants and that doesn’t make sense. Maybe Tori really doesn’t want the girls to go to jail and this is her way of helping them.

As for Tori according to The Ledger having to lock herself in someone’s car to avoid getting mauled by a group of softball girls at a bonfire is scary and unnerving.:( And over what? A girl being upset that her boyfriend wanted to date Tori? OMG you cannot be serious! How is that Tori’s fault? It’s not. But you can bet girls that didn’t like blamed her for that. And 2 of those girls were April Cooper and Brittany Mayes. I think we now know why they were there to see and help Tori “get it” on March 30, 2008. It wasn’t a coincidence afterall. That was a plot for them to finally get Tori and they did. And the excitement from the girls on the video from cheering on her beating to making orgasmic sounds at the sight of her being injured explains how badly they wanted her hurt. That cannot be denied. Tori has paid for her sins in the legal system for striking her stepmother and sister and has hopefully gotten help for her anger problem. I hope Tori can move on and live a productive life. Now the girls who played various roles in her planned assault and battery need to pay legally for their sins and for their imprisoning Tori as well.

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November 18, 2008

christina garcia

Scott: Why would you only put this on here? I do not support talking badly about the victim, but when you just cut and paste from an article it isn’t fair, there is much more in it. I only ask you to be respectful and fair when you cut and paste something. Thanks

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

From what the Ledger article said, many girls were jealous of Victoria’s popularity, just as she herself stated on the GMA interview. That’s not surprising and nothing new. The thing that is new is that we now know that April Cooper and Brittany Mayes had a serious grudge against Victoria as a result of a previous dispute that almost got violent. That does not reflect well on AC and BM, it is not Victoria’s fault that she is popular.

It may be that Victoria and Mercades were going through problems of their own, but why is that an issue? It is not unusual for close friends to go through rough times in their friendship, and they usually work things out if there is no outside influence. What if it involved boys, it usually does, and that is sad but true. It does not connect Mercades to the incident on the beach.

As for Victoria’s statement about her friendship with Mercades deteriorating, remember this was said under the pressure of intensive cross-examination by aggressive attorneys. They can twist a person’s words to suit their needs. Let’s wait and see what we can learn about the defense attorneys’ strategy.

We already know that they intend to attack Victoria’s character. It’s possible that Victoria has outbursts of anger (maybe there’s a medical reason) without meaning she is habitually violent. By exaggerating the seriousness of the disagreement between Mercades and Victoria the defense could be playing the game of guilt by association. Mercades is so angry that she allies herself with a group that is out to physically hurt Victoria, so she must be inclined to violence. And since Mercades and Victoria are close friends, and Mercades is violent then so is her friend. Yes, that kind of thing has worked with juries. You just drag everyone down and the jury thinks all these girls are indistinguishable in their propensity for violence. That way the most violent ones are no worse than the others, and nothing gets sorted out.

Is it possible this scenario is true? I don’t know but it makes sense and so do some other stories. But they are just stories until we learn more facts. Anyway it isn’t necessary to conclude that Victoria is simply lying. She is under pressure just like everyone else. Anyway, the news about AC and BM may increase their culpability in the sequence of events that led up to the tragedy, and their lawyers would like Victoria and Mercades to share the guilt. But let’s wait for more information.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Christina,it’s really admirable to see how you stand up for your daughter.
I wish more information about Jake were out there, because if only half of what has been said on the blogs is true, Mercades must have gone through a lot of hardship because of him.

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November 18, 2008

Garland

I agree with what you’re saying, Scott, &amp it’s very ridiculous it’s ridiculous for juvenile records to be displayed out in the public. I wonder why Victoria’s lawyer would let them display private information about herself? Doesn’t make sense at all. Poor, poor Victoria. I hope the defendant’s lawyers are VERY happy. Karma will come back to bite them in the behind.

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November 18, 2008

Garland

This just in an hour ago. There are plea deals going on about the case.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20081118/NEWS/81…

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Garland, this endless torture of Tori might not have happened if Gloria Allred was still her lawyer. Isn’t Allred supposed to help females who are victims of violent acts? It doesn’t matter that Tori has anger issues to deal with. Allred left her high and dry and if it was over money then it proves she doesn’t have a teenage girl’s best interests at heart. There is no way Victoria’s lawyer should have allowed her to answer certain personal questions she didn’t even have to answer. That was absurd.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Garland, as for plea offers from the prosecution, this could have been done 4 or 5 months ago. Why wait so long? To drag Tori through the mud for a few more months? Was anybody in the legal system in Polk County really on Tori’s side in all of this? It sure doesn’t look like they were with the way she was treated.

Now that the possiblty of a trial date being set is on the horizon the defendants want to plea deal? I say bullsh!t to that as Brittini Hardcastle would say. )

Tori most likley still needs many thousands of dollars to cover her medical bills. Who is going to pay for those bills? As forgiving as Tori seems to be toward the defendants I don’t think she will file civil suits against them. But she should for various reasons including the permanent physical and emotional damage they caused her.

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November 18, 2008

Navigator

gompertz… and all the rest of you… Wow… how soon we forget that there is a VICTIM here. You are LISTENING to the mother of the ACCUSED and believing her? She is as munipulative as her daughter … course it is a family trait. PLEASE…. remember who you are dealing with here. This is the women who said that Tori should have been able to “back it up”. and the only FACTS known about Mercedes exboyfriend are that SHE STABBED him and threatened him… stated in his statement to the police…he is also a victim here! This women, Mercedes mother, will do ANYTHING to discredit the victim and make her daughter look like an angel… and to make money off of this situation and do not forget that. The facts are coming out now… and they are not going to be pretty… for either side… I am sure. But ALWAYS remember – The victim is TORI….and the FACTS are on video and that is that.

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November 18, 2008

Garland

Scott, most likely. I certainly bet that they were delaying this trial all along just to get information &amp to try to defame Victoria by using her personal lifestyle, &amp then going for the plea bargain. It’s crazy why they would do such a thing like this. I do agree with you that this should’ve been done many, Many months ago. Makes me so sick.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Navigator, alot has been done to hurt Tori and make her not seem like the victim she was in the assault and battery against her. But she is the victim and that won’t change.

Garland, it’s true the delays occured to dig up more dirt on Tori so the prosecution would have to come to the defendants with plea offers. It’s very frustrating. Waiting all this time I had hoped the defendants especially the most violent ones had the guts to go on trial. But that doesn’t see to be the case. And it doesn’t matter that Tori had problems at home or had a misdemeanor record. That doesn’t excuse in the least what happened to her even though some people think it is an excuse.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Navigator, did anyone here deny that Victoria is the victim??? I hate to repeat myself again and again, but I have said that my support for the victim Victoria is unconditional. I have said that based on all I have seen she is a peaceful and good person. Over and above words, one can choose to show support in various ways. Some people may think supporting Victoria is something like rooting for a ball team (and I am not accusing anyone of that). I root for the NY Mets, I attend Met games, and cheer and wave a banner. And those nine men on the field that I don’t know couldn’t care less about my support. They are overpaid athletes who live the good life, Victoria is a young girl who suffered a brutal beating for no good reason. So I would think I would show my support in a way different from the way I would support a ball team. Some people have shown support by trying to contact the family personally and perhaps I am one of those people, that is not something anyone else needs to know. For someone like Victoria whom I don’t know personally my ability to help is limited.

What people like me can do is to try to help the victims that we do know. There are crime victims and people who suffer all sorts of misfortune whose needs we know personally and can address.

Also this particular thread is about Mercades and the law suit filed by her mother. So it seems appropriate to talk about it here (even though many other things get talked about, not directly related to this case at all). One of the things I do in these blogs is to explore all the possibilities based on the limited evidence. Then I use a little logic and a lot of gut feelings and intuition based on my many years of dealing with all kinds of people in all kinds of situations.

Since I have had some experience with law enforcement and with lawyers (and I can’t be more specific or provide examples) I know that the people in those professions are corrupt more often than not. So I do see a very real possibility (and it is only a possibility, of course) that the sheriff is really not the pillar of civilization people believe him to be. Remember being popular is no guarantee of anything. Also, look at the statement “she stabbed him”. Did she really? If you read the affidavit, it says she stabbed him with a pen which did no harm except to leave ink marks. The dictionary defined stabbing as a piercing that causes injury, or at least breaks the skin. Since the pen did no harm, it is just playing with words whether to call it a stabbing. But it sounds much worse than it does if the reports leave out the qualification that it did no harm except to leave ink marks, and I suppose a little soap and water took care of that. The other charges in that affidavit may be more serious, but there are degrees of seriousness. Certainly Mercades has problems that deserve attention, such as counseling, anger management perhaps, but not arrest.

I am not trying to discredit your commitment to the truth, but I wish you would explain how it is that you seem much more concerned about expressing anger toward the one who did not hit Victoria and you are silent about the ones that did. As I said a short while ago, the new information about the attack on Victoria at the bonfire point to an even greater degree of guilt for April Cooper and Brittany Mayes. It would be a miscarriage of justice if they got away with their crime, and yes it was a crime, no one here has ever denied that. I admit that I have changed my opinions on certain aspects of the case with regard to Mercades and her mother. All I ask you to do is ask if it is possible for people to be wrong about some things and maybe change their minds without being suspected of having ulterior motives?

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Scott and Garland, i was afraid this might happen,the corrupt system chews up and spits out victims and it should be obvious by now that the prosecution never cared about Victoria. It makes me sick too, but I know how the courts operate and in the end prosecutors and defense lawyers are on the same side and the side is not the side of justice. It remains to be seen how many outrages like this the people will stand before someone takes matters into their own hands. I would really like to see Mercades get a plea deal but the others need to do some serious time.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Why would I only put what on here? How wasn’t I fair? I pride myself on being fair to all involved.

Anyway good luck today Christina.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Let’s keep in mind what the real danger is. If they get away with doing what they did, including the taping, we are sending the message that this is acceptable behavior. You can become an internet star by beating up a victim on tape, and if the victim brings charges, you simply get a sleazebag lawyer to reveal that the victim is imperfect, and you will be free to enjoy your fame and possibly appear on the Dr. Phil show. I wonder if all those decent people out there will ever reach a breaking point and fight back.

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November 18, 2008

christina garcia

Ok, I have to reply to a couple of things here…first of all Navigator, if you’re going to quote me, can you please do it completely? What was said in exact words was ” I don’t understand why she would say these things if she couldn’t back it up” 2 things you should know…I was asked what I thought was going through BH’s mind at the time, and of course they cut my words up to suit them, but even so, maybe my words were not as proper as you want them to be, but I only meant that I didn’t understand why she would put herself in the situation. And let me tell you why the State is in a very bad spot right now, Grady Judd put them in this mess, exploding the case on national TV saying things that were not true and because they weren’t true the state can’t follow through on things as if they were true…I hope I said that right, I feel like I’m talking in circles here sometimes. My opinion and its only mine, I feel had the sheriff kept his trap shut during the investigation and let the State get thier facts straight, they would’ve had a better chance of real justice and then after all the facts were in ( the true facts) then talk about it, but as a sheriff you don’t speak about a case during an investigation, and you sure don’t put my kid’s 411 out there before she was even charged as an adult! The Sheriff messed this one up not the State. And just for the record Gomp has seen with his own eyes some evidence not much but enough and that’s why he stands strong with his opinion, he is one of the only people I have shared this with.

Hey Gomp…Mercades’ attorney said there wasn’t a ple deal yet for her and thaT THEY WERE working on it,and then that link gets put up?? WTH is going on here? Would her attorney lie to her like that? She refuses to speak to me now.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Christina, I hate to say it but with lawyers you never know, and yes, the part about refusing to speak to you…I had a lawyer tell me that every future consultation I requested with him I would be charged an extra fee. We can only wait and hope for the best. Also the media will take what you say and only play the part they want, that is why I never speak to reporters when they shove a microphone in my face as sometimes happens on the streets of NY.

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November 18, 2008

Navigator

First of all… GOM… I am concerned that ALL involved get what they deserve and you have obviously been brainwashed by the now “perfect mother” of Mercedes…lol. You need to go back and watch the videos again sir. This girl is NO ANGEL!

Christina… I guess you (again) have to blame someone else for your shortcomings as a parent. It is always someone elses fault isn’t it! I really hope they ALL get what they deserve or you will see alot worse from other teens (or younger) in the future. This needs to set an example NOW!

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November 18, 2008

christina garcia

But what she’s saying is she only has to speak to Mercades…you know maybe this should move over to an email… you think?

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November 18, 2008

christina garcia

Shortcoming as a parent?? Excuse me, but this case has nothing to do with my parenting. I never said she was an angel, you are the one trying to manipulate here. You are trying to put me on the defensive side so that i say something negative about Tori and it just won’t work : ) I have nothing else to say.

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Yes Gompertz the scenario of the defense lawyers sullying all the girls to drag them down to make them indisinguishable in their propensity for violence is taking place.

Tori has her anger issues to deal with. But she showed great self control in not trying to fight back in both of those serious situations where rage filled girls trapped her. Can you imagine Tori had to lock herself in a car at the bonfire to avoid getting beaten by a mob of angry girls? It’s incredible.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Brainwashed? Really? It’s sad that after so much civilized exchange of views, we are back to this level of judging purely by emotion. Yes I have watched the videos again and again, and read the affidavits and seen all the available evidence and I assume you have too and you are entitled to your opinion. But you have no new evidence and we wind up making the exact same kinds of comments that were made months ago. Fine, it helps to lash out and to vent sometimes but it also helps to try to look at things anew.

Consider the fact that the early reports (which are still up) called Mercades the ringleader and say that she “beat up” Victoria. We now know that is inaccurate. What her involvement was, and what her motivation ws for her behavior, remains to be seen, and since we don’t know yet I think we should wait and not judge . The others have no excuse, the video speaks for itself because two of them clearly were seen beating the victim

Sometimes anger is good, and sometimes it is better to let go of anger and do some peaceful reflection. And I know that when I speak of compassion as I sometimes do it makes some people angry, and that is alright too. It doesn’t make me better or worse than others that I try to find peace. It just means that I find it helpful to sometimes let go of anger because my anger hurts only me. And the reason I concluded that Mercades is not the thug they said she is, and her mother not the terrible person they say, is that I looked at things from a fresh calm point of view. So that is my view and it is your right to disagree, but unless you have new evidence that we haven’t seen, I have to stick with my judgment.

Let us hope the judge is calm and objective and comes to a conclusion that is fair and just for all.

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November 18, 2008

Navigator

No, you are wrong again – this case has EVERYTHING to do with your lack of parenting skills. If you would have taught your daugter how to be a REAL friend… she… number one – would never have put Victoria in the situation in the FIRST place and number two… SHE would know how to treat others (like her boyfriend) as though she wanted to be treated… or maybe she just likes being beat and stabbed herself.

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November 18, 2008

GregS

Navigator, because Mercades is not here to defend herself, we just cannot assume one way or the other what her intentions were (not that intent matters), and we cannot know anything about her perspective or level of involvement. So I’m not going to attack Mercades until we know more.

But I do know Mercades has to learn to judge character and I hope she learns this because it could save her life. I don’t know about Mercades, but Hardcastle and April Cooper don’t appear to have any empathy or remorse at all. I’m sure most people have had friends like this and at some point we learned that not all people are without remorse and without empathy, and Mercades if she continues to surround herself with violent people who don’t have remorse and empathy, will keep going down this path to no where.

I think Mercades has a chance to start over, surround herself with some good people and someday she could become a good person herself and learn to be a loyal friend. I don’t think Hardcastle and April Cooper can change, in my experiences growing up I’ve known people who had that mentality, and they all ended up either dead or in prison. The specific behavior I’m talking about is the senseless violence without remorse, and that behavior only leads to two places, the graveyard or the jail cell. A lot o the time just by hanging around with or having friends like this you can end up in the grave or jail with them.

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November 18, 2008

GregS

Christina, about the lawyer, is Mercades over 18? If she is then she might have a privilege.

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November 18, 2008

Navigator

Mercedes had the opportunity to help her friend and she chose not to. She was, however, very concerned about that shelf… and that makes her a great person… lol

See, the difference between you and I is that I look at the whole picture. I see a group of thugs beating up a girl inside a home of a person who had an opportunity to call the police, or stand up for her friend and make the other girls leave. But instead she chose to sit back and watch and say things like – it’s all your fault… you brought it upon yourself.”

And, by the way, I have watched the videos many times and read all the affidavites, so do not think I do not know what I AM talking about. The munipulation of facts and statements is coming from you source… not mine. I have been sitting back for a while now , just reading along… I just have been getting tired of hearing about “poor ol’ Mercedes” and how everyone is against her and her mother. It really is a joke!

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November 18, 2008

Scott

Ask yourself this question: Is anyone involed in the sad assault on Victoria Lindsay better off with the 2 videos having been released? No. Certainly not Tori. And I can’t think of anyone who has benefitted from the videos being released. At first I thought Sheriff Judd benefitted from the publicity but it has backfired on him with so much negative publicity directed his way the last few months.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Just got back home. Is there any news about the hearing, and plea bargains?
Scott, you are so right that the release of the video only hurt the victim. Especially if the whole thing comes down to a plea bargain which could have been offered months ago and saved so much grief. Surely the sheriff is no fool, and knew what he was doing, but you are right in thinking it may backfire. When people reach the heights of popularity they tend to think they are invincible and overreach. It happened to Napoleon and Bush, so why not to a small-town sheriff?

Greg, thanks for the observations, which I think are quite right. It is a fact that parents today simply do not have control of their children. I have seen too many instances of good parents, people I have known all my life, whose children wound up in trouble with the law for various offenses. You cannot always blame parents, because children are free to make their own choices for good or evil, and this society gives them so many chances to go wrong.

Navigator, we disagree greatly, but I wonder if you have seen some of the comments in Tampa Bay Observer for July and August concerning Mercades, over forty pages. Most of these comments are vulgar and cruel. I wonder if you think the people who make these hurtful comments about Mercades are “supporting” Victoria in some way? What do you think is the proper way to help victims of violent crime? And what kind of sentence is appropriate for Mercades in your opinion?

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November 18, 2008

GregS

Navigator, why must everything be so extreme? Nobody is claiming that Mercades is a great person.

What I’m saying is we should measure how bad the behavior of each person is, and through precise measurement we can determine our verdict. It’s not a matter of whether or not Mercades is guilty, it’s about measuring her level of involvement, her level of guilt. All involved must face punishment but the punishment must be equal to the crime.

All of these girls were immoral, but we cannot punish all of them equally. Not all bad behavior is equal just like not all good behavior is equal, you have to measure the impact and the damages and if you look at the video you can see whos behavior was the most damaging. Mercades hurt Victoria emotionally by being a bad friend, but the physical damage was done by the girls we see in the video beating on Victoria.

Sometimes when you are dealing with big cases you cannot go after all of them equally, you go after top dogs and make an example of the ring leader and you give the others with less involvement a chance to cut deals and plea in exchange for their testimony. The goal is to get Hardcastle and April Cooper off the street right? They are the most violent.

The difference between you and I is in our approach and our methodology. My approach and methods are results oriented (reasonable). The goal is to take Hardcastle and April Cooper off the streets to send a message to others who have their mentality that there is no place in our society for that behavior. The result will be to deter the behavior we see taking place in the video through fear of the punishment associated with it.

Mercades was a bad friend, her reputation is damaged, she has bad social credit. If you advocate we put Mercades in prison, you have to justify your advocacy. Should we put her in prison for being disloyal and a bad friend? What laws did she break? I’d say Mercades committed civil offenses, if Victoria wants to she can sue Mercades for emotional damages, but this isn’t the same as kidnapping and assault.

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November 18, 2008

GregS

Navigator, I suggest you watch the video again. Victoria says on the video that she cares about Mercades. Mercades was disloyal and that damages her reputation, but she didn’t beat up her friend, the worst thing she did on video was saying “don’t hit the shelf!”, and whether she had good or bad intentions it does not change the behavior we see on tape or the scene. She’s simply not one of the physical attackers who beat Victoria, and she’s definitely not the ringleader or mastermind. Her behavior indicates that she was disloyal and that she probably feared Hardcastle and April Cooper. Her overall long term behavior indicates she has an inability to judge character, and this is not something everyone learns as a lot of adults keep friends around them who are criminals of the worst kind.

Christina is not the worst mother in the world either, based on what she told me about Polk County, if she had to raise Mercades in that backward town it should explain at least some of the complications. Christina also had Mercades when she was young herself, and in conclusion, parents are a lot more limited today in their methods than they were yesterday, which is why if you have kids who are hard headed it’s very difficult to correct them. Parents don’t have enough control to select their childrens friends, and often children don’t listen to the advice of their parents. I look at Mercades overall pattern of behavior and she is consistently a poor judge of character, this includes her ex bf, this includes her group of criminal friends she was getting into trouble with, and Victoria isn’t any better at judging character if we look at the situations she was in, but this is not something everyone learns. I think if Mercades learns to judge character and be a loyal friend, she will survive through this. I cannot say I’m all that optimistic about April Cooper and Hardcastle, as those two don’t seem to have any remorse at all and Hardcastle in specific seems like the ring leader to me and in general the most violent and least remorseful of the group. I think the harshest punishment should go to Hardcastle, I wont say how harsh but she needs years of prison time because she’s on tape beating someone up and she’s not 14. April Cooper needs to do some time too, and Mercades has room for negotiation, she will probably get some months in jail or cut a deal of some sort, but because she’s not on tape beating anyone up I don’t think she can be charged with anything beyond luring Victoria to the house, and thats only if we find she’s the one who called. I judge Mercades by her behavior alone, yes her reputation is damaged but not beyond repair.

On the tape Victoria says she cares about Mercades, thats all I needed to hear really.

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November 18, 2008

Electronica

well i didnt read this page cause i dont care about lawsuits but i see everyone talks about everything here.

amyv i hope your dad will be ok.

i dont have much to say but what i said long timr before i dont think merc is so evil she just didnt act right thats bad but doesnt make her a criminal. merc didnt lure tori thats not what happened tori says she was going back already.

and nav you dont know much you just say stuff you like. i dont think it was merc who called tori honey i think it was april. and i didnt mercs mom say there were her grandpas ashes on that shelf? and didnt merc yell at britti tolet tor run away like soon after? sounds like her.

i know merc didnt do right but why say she did stuff she didnt? ppl say that sll the time. grownups should be more fair.

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November 18, 2008

Electronica

oh and i dont know if merc broke the law but like i said before i think it be ok if she gets like 2-3 months jail cause she didnt stop it and it was her place and her place. but she shouldnt get beat up in jail ppl say it was wrong to beat up tori and then they say they hope merc gets beat up thats not right. if she went to family court they coulda sent her to sme nice juvie like not for violent girls and she could get away from it all for like 6 months and maybe make new friends and study too i dont know if theyll let her study in real jail. but maybe in jail she will not eat so much and exercise more cause theres not much else to do and not be so fat so boys will like her more and shell be more happy.

but anyway shes not a criminal all kids break the law and make mistakes merc didnt want tori get real hurt im sure so she shouldnt go to prison shes not that bad ppl just hate her cause they wanne hate and tv told them its ok to hate her and they dont think for themselves.

anyway thats what i think. gn.

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November 18, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, welcome back. I remember how you used to say people misinterpreted what you meant and now I understand because some people do the same to me. Some people really do jump to conclusions and once they make up their minds they don’t like to listen to other points of view.

There is just one thing I have to ask you about. Do you really think Mercades is too fat? Actually I think if she wants to diet and exercise it’s something she could do if she wants to, but I don’t think she has to. If a person is really overweight to the extent that it leads to health problems, sure, they need to lose weight. But Mercades doesn’t seem overweioght to me, and isn’t it possible some young man will like her just the way she is?

Anyway I hope you are doing all right in school, and don’t let the blogs get in the way of studying for your classes.

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November 18, 2008

Electronica

gomp idk i think shes a bit fat but im too thin ppl make fun of me about it say i should eat more but i move all the time even when i sit and dont like to eat too much. and idk im not saying no boy will like her just saying more boys will like her its better i think.

and its not easy to diet and exercise i know many girls they try but dont do much at all. and i sort of see why like i dont do hw i just say later and then its to late. but i dont read blogs almost at all now it doesnt matter what i do or dont do i just get bored doing hw and if i had to exercise id get bored but i dont have to exercise i do sports a lot and thats enough for me.

so anyway maybe it would be more easy to drop some pounds in jail i think some girls would go to jail for 3 months if they could get thin but im not saying merc would maybe she likes the way she is i was just thinkin shed be more happy is all.

but nnow really gn.

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November 18, 2008

amyv

Navigator – Welcome back. I do not know where to start. The fact that their was a confrontation prior to this beating does confirm what I have believed all along.

How can we sit here and claim to go by things based on facts and then come up with conlusions that are based on a big corruption theory.

All along we have been saying that this was not just a coincidence that all of these girls were at that house the day of the beating. now knowing that April and Brittany already had warned her and were out to get her the evidence we have waited for seems to be mounting.

Their was a reason these girls were all at that house. Everyone of them knew what was going to happen. I know have no doubt. Especially, since the additional information we have received comes directly from the victim. And, one thing I have stuck to on this blog is that I will always believe the victim over the ones that commited the crime.

Much has been made of the ex boyfriend Jake. Much has been said of basing this case on facts and not instincts. Yet, with going on emotion some people have jumped to some of the most outrageous conclucsions in this case.

Sorry Gompertz but here I go. When this boy said he was stabbed by her with a pen, does it really matter what the definition of stabbing is in the dictionary. Would it have been better to say she poked him with the pen. Bottom line is he stated she, whether you use the word stabbed or poked, is not really relevant. You picked up a pen and used it against someone whether you broke the skin or not, your certainly intended to cause pain.

Also, I do remember at the beginning of this case, the boys grandmother stated that Mercades was violent and she did not like her at her house. So, even though it is more he said she said, why is it automatically the boy being bashed without taking time to consider that his story makes much more sense then hers. And, once again this is a victim that Mercades has been charged with violent behavior towards.
But, their is no problem with saying ugly, nasty things about him before we even have half of the evidence. Please respect him as a victim as well until proven other wise. Boys do not like to look like cowards. So just by common sense, why would this go to school officials and police knowing that he was risking looking like a whimp in some peoples eyes. Sorry it just does not add up.

It continues to boggle my mind that people can watch this tape and still not see what is right in front of their noise.
Navigator – Meant to address this to you. Repeatedly, when to certain advantages these teenagers have been called children. But the youngest 14 and Brittini Hardcastle 17 should go to jail according to almost everyone. Yes, they definitely were the most violent, but two other girls did hit her period. per the victim.

None of these girls on this tape acted like children. You can not use that phrase for some, and then say harsh sentences are appropriate for just two because, come arent’t they all children. No not a one.

I am pretty sure it was April Cooper who said you brought it on yourself honey. Go ahead and run away, Just let her go like she always does. So,surprise one of the most violent actualy did say run away. And, we can’t have it both ways so if this was the entire tape at no time did Mercades say let her go.

They are all guilty, yes to different degrees and they all deserve jail time. Although, Mercades did not hit her she drove the car that took Victoria away even though Victoria says she told them she didn’t want to go. That goes beyond being a “bad friend”. It is indeed a crime.

The sheriff has been blamed and so has every other person this can be pinned on under the sun. Put the blame flat where it lies with the people who commited the crime. period

Navigator- I tryed to give my opinion of the manipulation I saw going on on this post.
And, people jumped all over me. So I pulled back. So I am glad you are here.

Gompertz – Believe this I was sincere when I said I would not what to be a mother on either side of this case. I was sincere when I talked about the loss of a father being horrible for anyone. I am not such a horrible person that I would ever be insincere about that.

Christinia – I have no doubt this will be our lost blog together. Do not even try to pretend this time that your statement about the timing being suspicious from when the boyfriend made statements and Vicoria making her statement. But, I am sure you do not mean to call her a liar. Who do you think you are fooling. Certainly not me and certainly not Navigator. You have subltly just falling sort of saying it out right been trying to discredit Victoria since you got on her.

Navigator – You are absolutely right. But, be ready to get jumped. Because, by God don’t say anything bad about the mother or her daughter. Because she has got a lot of people snowed.

It looks like these girls will get off with a slap on the wrist and then lets see how sincere they feel about putting this girl throught this Horrific ordeal. And, I will make a beat after getting their way a lot of this deep concern for Victoria will show up as B.S.

Go ahead. Bash away. Could care less. But, leave Florida alone since, if they do get off with light plea bargains, your conspiracy theories of how horrible teenagers are treated in florida and what a horrible conspiracy theory has been going have been proven to do just what I thought a ploy on some peoples, not you gomperts, part to let these girls get away with this by pushing the focus away from the real crime and the real criminals. Bravo if it worked. You just got away with a violent crime and, the victim once again did not get served justice period.

But, beware, I believe if BrIttnni Hardcastlle and April Cooper benefit from this tactic. Do you think they are going to forget that these girls pushed all of the blame towards them. Now, some of the very girls who where there, should probably fear retalation from these girls. I am not saying it is right but, I do believe this will not go over well. good night all. And have at me if you wish. But, wise up and read between some of the lines that are so subliminaly obvious on this blog.

I am not the sheriff, I do not know these girls, I am not a lawyer, etc. But, go ahead keep it up and I am sure plenty of people will continue to believe you.

Good night Navigator.

Electronica – Good of hear from you again. I know you don’t believe in the things I do but, stay a good person. Try very hard to stay away from anyone that can hurt your or that you mght want to hurt. It is a much braver person that will walk away then a person that will fight just to save face. All of this violence is just nor worth it.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Amyv, the boy Jake has a confederate flag on his Myspace, he dresses up like he’s one of them cowboy types. He does seem like the type to beat up his girlfriend. I read his Myspace comments and he doesn’t seem to be very smart or very mature, he seems like exactly the kinda guy to go get drunk then take it out on his girlfriend so while he might have been stabbed, it’s not the stabbing with the pen part that had me concerned.

What had me concerned about that case is the threat to have her boys beat him up.

We cannot yet determine the level of involvement Mercades had in this. She’s not completely innocent but she’s not a violent criminal so we have to wait and see. And of course we can expect Christina to protect her daughter, it’s her daughter, thats what mothers do. But as of right now we just don’t have enough information to say Mercades was the ringleader and all the evidence says she isnt.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Electronica weight has nothing to do with health. People who are skinny with eating disorder are not healthy and probably wont live any longer.

Don’t expect all women to have to look the same just because you have a fetish for skinny chicks. It’s just like how some women like buff muscular men and some women like skinny men.

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November 19, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I am not a big supporter of the confederate flag as it is perceived by some people as a part of history that we all know was horrific for Africian Americas. As for the comment, looks like one of those cowboy types, I am not sure where you are going there. That seems like a stereotyping issue and I am not into that. What you were, your social status. etc. makes you no more inclined to beat a woman. We all know that even people who dress in suits by day and are very successful come home and beat their wives or girlfriends. So I feel once again this boy is being charged harshly and unfairly on this blog?

Why is that people are so quick to pass judgement and make bash a teenage boy and yes, even sometimes that victim of this case. Once again, not directing this comment to you. But, will jump on any little comment that is made against the teenage girl and her mother.

We saw the tape. Mercades was involved. Out of all of them it seems she hurt Victoria the most mentally since she made the mistake of thinking this girl was her friend. Also, the mother if you reread her post makes a comment about aspects of victorias character before the steady increase of bashing the victim and her character.Just enough said to insinuate things about her but to keep her own sympathy going expresses her restraint.

Honestly, for the life of me I do not see why people can not see this mothers agenda. We saw hiner response to this beating life and in color on tape. And, yes it was aimed straght at the victim. Then states her angry was displaced
and snnhould have been towards the sheriff. i way the guilt lies straight on these girls. period.

This woman has played people and they have fallen for it. Even though it seems like I did I never changed my opinion of her motives.

Gregs – Please refrain from comment like that to Electronica she seems like a sweet young GIRL.

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

Amy… good to be back and I DO NOT CARE if people want to jump me on here … they can go for it. Sorry I have not been here for you, You have made really good points for the last few months and need someone to back you up.

The stabbing of the pen with ex boyfriend really gets me. It was just a pen today, but what if it is a knife the next time Mercedes does not get her way or someone wants to break up with her. She is a time bomb ready to go off and many of you do not see it. This girl has serious anger issues and she DID provoke the beating on Victoria. She was smart and munipulative in her actions though… kind of a sick smart. She knew what she was doing… do NOT forget that. She wanted Victoria gone… she couldn’t do it herself, because she was already in alot of trouble, so she just made a situation that would solve the issue for her. DO NOT underestimate the fact that she is her mothers daughter… people. She will munipulate a situation to go her way – without any guilt or second thought… and that is very scary. Wait and see. If she gets out of this… you will hear her name again… and the next time… it won’t be pretty.

I believe that all involved need to be punished for thier actions. They chose to be involved and they need to pay the piper. Today we reward bad behavior and scold the good behavior. Look at the housing market as an example… you pay your bills on time and do everything you can to stay afloat… and you will loose your house… but stop paying for at least 3 months and they will refinance your home back to the new appaised value and lower your bills. This is our society people and it teaches our young people that they can get away with what ever they want … because someone will always bail them out. Look at Dr. Phil… bailed Mercedes out. Look at the recent plea bargains – another bailout… it really makes me sick. They need to be punished – humiliated in court … serve AT THE LEAST one year and be on probation for 10 years …going school to school telling their story to other “would be” bullies and munipulators and how they DID NOT GET AWAY WITH IT. That, my friends, is a sentence I could live with. It will not only teach THEM a lesson – But a whole new generation will be able to learn from it as well!

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

Also, to all the violent lovers in here…stop bashing the victims in these cases – so the boy has a flag on his site… HAVE YOU SEEN MERCEDES MOTHERS SITE?! OR MERCEDES SITE? If this was my daughters site I would have jerk her a new one… She obviously promotes a loose lifestyle for herself that can be seen by all her friends and boyfriends. If I was her boyfriend I would be embarresed to let anyone know. She should have more respect for herself and her “mother” needs to teach her that respect… (but it is obvious that she herself has no respect for herself.)

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November 19, 2008

gompertz

Sheesh…I can’t leave the room fora minute and all heck breaks loose…..
Amy, I do need to point out that the statement about Jake’s confederate flag was not made by me, but by Greg, no harm done I suppose. I do go back to the stabbing and I wonder if I am making my point (that could be a pun). It is not a question of what her intent was, because we don’t know. All the circumstances surrounding that relationship are rather unclear, so I don’t jump to conclusions, though people who jump to conclusions usually don’t know that they are jumping to conclusions, they all think they are being fair and objective. My whole focus is on the way the “stabbing” was reported and how people could be mislead. The people here certainly have researched everything, the affidavits, etc. But surely the millions of people who only know what they see on TV and read in the papers will rely only on the information they are given. So there is a perception on the part of the general public that a stabbing took place and they proceed to embellish that statement. When Mercades goes out into the world she will meet people who know her as “the thug who stabbed her boyfriend”. Yes, I do make a lot about it because it is there in black and white that the pen did no harm and it does make a difference that many people don’t get to hear that part because the reporter got lazy and didn’t complete the statement. Now, I have known violent people all my life, even before I ever set foot in a kindergarten I knew violent little children and I do believe there are “bad seeds”. They may start by torturing ants and flies and eventually graduate to people. I know that when a violent person intends to do you harm, for instance by lunging at you with a weapon, even a pen, that person will inflict harm because that is what they are good at. If I were attacked violently by someone, I would much rather it were by someone who did me no harm with a little pushing and thrusting than by someone who is really good at inflicting pain. And of course this is just my opinion, and I am not angry at you or anyone else for going over the same evidence and having a different opinion.
I must say however that I am suspicious of all strong passions, including my own. When I first saw that video I was beside myself with fury. If anyone had offered me transportation down to Polk County at that time I would have gone down there armed with sharp cutting tools with the intention to maim and mutilate. Gradually I calmed down and felt better. Of course I want justice, but let it be dispensed by a court in a civilized setting with all due consideration given to the facts, and we still don’t have all the facts. And if there is a plea bargain, we will not hear the facts and I do think it would be disastrous at this stage to allow people whose violence has been captured on tape to walk away with no real punishment.
Even if the plea bargain does involve some time in confinement, it is a miscarriage of justice to not have a trial, after all that has happened. Especially after the brutality shown by the attorneys toward the victim at the deposition. A plea bargain at this stage sends the message that these despicable tactics have succeeded. And be assured that there will be many, many more violent thugs inflicting pain on helpless victims and taping it. Yes, this case is a turning point. To let the violent ones escape without consequences is a disaster for society, and it is not to appease my anger that I say there needs to be punishment. It is for all the victims yet to come and who have already suffered. If this kind of violent behavior becomes the accepted norm, the only remedy will be for all the good people, the non-violent people to learn to defend themselves with martial arts and that would include weapons training. And that also is my opinion, and it does not contradict my previously expressed opinion that we need to wait to get all the facts. Alot more I could say but I really have work to do.
Amy yes I too was going to point out that Electronica seems like a sweet young girl.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Hi Amy. You make many good points. Everyone should remember that Tori is the victim here and has been dragged through the mud for 7 months. What a shame.

On a side note Amy it was Kayla and not April who told Tori in the video that “You brought it all on yourself honey”. Kayla had an ax to grind with Tori too. She let Tori have it verbally in the video which I think incited Hardcastle to keep unloading left hands on Tori’s face.

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November 19, 2008

Garland

Fully agree with you, scott &amp Amy. It is just a despicable, selfish, &amp cowardly act committed by the defendant’s attorneys. They know they don’t have a case of Victoria due to the videotape, &amp instead of having the girls take responsibility for their actions of what they done, what do they do? They want to defame her character by using her personal lifestyle against her, &amp to make people turn against her. It’s ridiculous. Her lifestyle has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her whatsoever, &amp I feel very sorry for Victoria having to face that. The only person who I have empathy for is Mercades’ attorney, &amp he (or she) decided not to do a thing like that against her. Plus from what I heard (&amp this didn’t come from me, it came from her former boyfriend), Victoria has has ODD (which stands for Oppositional Defiant Disorder) and RAD (which stands for Reactive Attachment Disorder) &amp that most of it comes from not having her real mom in her life. What I’m trying to say is, she’s not really a bad person. She just needs help. Regardless of what her past or present is, nothing changes the kind of empathy that I have for Victoria, &amp that’s sweet, gentle, &amp very troubled.

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November 19, 2008

christina garcia

Yes, her papa’s ashes were in the shelf, and thank you for bringing that up. I have nothing else to say to Amyv which has to wait for someone else to come in here to side with her, and then changes her attitude. When I came in here at first, as a grown woman I stood alone in what I believe and said. And by the way, Jake the Snake’s page also has KKK things on it too. Nobody has turned this site into a ” Mercades is an angel” page, Mercades herself has been ready to get this over with. And Mercades was not offered anything yet, the correction will be in tomorrow’s paper. For everyone that has given me constructive critism and support thank you. And for the record Mercades is a size 7, she is not fat at all…I think that comment is just funny.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Amyv when I said cowboy type, I’m talking about a culture where being macho is the norm and a lot of these macho types like to keep women in their place because thats what they were taught by their fathers. This passed down from generation to generation just as racism passes down in the same way, so yes I subconsciously link the two, but it’s worth conducting a study to see if the link is as legit as I suspect. Another and perhaps the main reason I think he’s the type is because looking at his Myspace profile he’s obviously insecure, he wants to pretend like he’s a marine to make up for something. It’s precisely these types of guys who get drunk and beat on their women, and I have women tell me on a regularly that these sorts of guys are the type, I didn’t just pull that out of my ass.

About Mercades, she’s not involved in any physical violence Amyv. Shes a bad friend but shes not involved in physical violence so lets judge her by what she did. Mercades will be punished for being a bad friend to Victoria, but Mercades should be punished seperate from April Cooper and Hardcastle. These are different types of crimes and they shouldn’t be treated all the same way.

Amyv you sound a LOT like Navigator. I’m fairly good at reading people, and we all can see that Christina has the motive to protect her child, but so far she has been more honest with us than the media and the Sheriff, so unless Victoria decides to contact me, there aren’t many people who would make a better source, I’d say Christina is the best source of information besides Victoria.

And I don’t know who Electronica is, why are you defending this person? Is she your daughter?
It’s not personal.

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

I believe Amy can stand on her own two feet here, just fine. And I am sure that she will not agree with all that I have to say… and that is fine as well.

I believe that many here had forgotten who the real victim is in this situation and needed to be reminded. You, Garcia, have been trying to make this look like the fault of everyone BUT your daughter and trying to make her look more like a victim. People began to fall for it because you are a munipulator. You know how to sweeten the pot to make things look better for you, so you can gain support from others. You are good at it, I will give you that. But some of us can see right through the bull.

People, I am from Florida and the ONLY reason this women does not like this sheriff here is because he GETS IT DONE! We need more LIKE him… So what if he released the video – he made a nation aware of a situation that was going on right under our noses. Before this video, I never even ventured to youtube or myspace… NOW… I see the real deal. My daughter will NEVER have a myspace or youtube account… EVER. I would not subject her to the filth that presideds there. I want her to have some form of childhood BEFORE it gets slammed in her face as an adult. I know that it hurts Tori to see the video, but in another since, I am sure she in glad it WAS on video, so that these punks can get the puinishment they deserve. I had a simular situation happen to me when I was younger, by my own cousins. I was beat very badly but had no evidence to the fact and they got off. They threatened to kill me for many years into the future for tearing our family apart. I WISH IT WAS ON VIDEO for all to see.. I would have posted it myself! Then they would not have been able to get away with it and I would not have had to move away from my home state to escape their rath. Tori would be feeling the same way today if this video did not exsist. Mercedes and Kayla tried in their statemnt to the police to say that the girls were not their, they lied and if the tape did not exsist… they would have taken their word! These girls would be haunting her and threating her still today and she could do nothing about it and the family would have to move. NOT FAIR! The criminal always gets the better end of that deal.

Sorry to rant on.. not like me… just tired of people giving a d#mn about some punks who deserve what ever they get, if not more.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

My conclusion just based on the tones of the posts, Amyv and Navigator are being emotional.

The law isn’t about feelings, it’s about justice and making people pay the consequences. This emotionalism is not helping.

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

Greg… Bad friend? Mercedes drove the car … threatened to do worse harm the next time along with the others and you do not think, because she didn’t “hit” tori, that she should not pay as bad as the others? If it was not for Mercedes.. none of these girls would be in this situation… so just because Charles Manson did not kill anyone… he should be free.. ? Hummm … what a screwed up thought that is. Not that Mercedes even comes close to Manson, but same principle. SHE IS NOT LITTLE MISS INNOCENT HERE! She knew that ifif all these girls got together, there would be a problem… she could have made those girls leave before Tori returned (like a good friend would do) to stop the fight from happening … she knew Tori was coming home and she knew knew what would happen.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Navigator if you and Amyv have read all my posts from start to finish I’ve always said that the violent must be punished. It’s natural law. I’m the same individual who endorses behavior modification on the global scale. So I do think all involved should be punished, but I don’t think all should be given the same punishment.

And no I don’t think Hardcastle or April Cooper should be allowed to get any kinda deal or sympathy, the jury and judge should show them as much empathy as they showed the victim.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Interesting point Navigator about how if the video was not turned over these girls would have likely gotten away with assaulting and imprisoning Tori and threating her in the future. That’s true. But I think it might have been best if the videos had been seen by the sheriff’s office, prosecution, defense, jury and judge. Making the video public only inflamed this sad situation to the point of threats of violence and that’s not good.

Christina, why hasn’t Mercedes been offered a plea deal? Doe she even want one? I would think so if only to just review and consider.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Navigator show me the evidence where Mercades made threats and maybe I’ll change my mind on her.

I didn’t see that she threatened Victoria after the fact.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Scott the video being public is part of the reason why plea deals should not have been offered to ALL SUSPECTS. The girls on the video being offered a plea deal sets a standard.

And honesty if they accept the plea deal I think it’s actually going to be worse for them, because while doing time might have let people think they received punishment from the court, now people are going to just blacklist them.

I think the plea deal for all suspects was a dumb move. It’s on tape, it would have been a slam dunk case against Hardcastle and Cooper.

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November 19, 2008

Electronica

amyv i dont follow what you mean i dont think april should go to adult jail i think thats wrong. why should she when we have jails for kids?

and why your not a kid anymore when you do something bad? how does doing something bad make you a grownup? i dont get it.

and april wouldnt even relly get to be a grownup only punished like a grownup right? they dont give her any grownup rights only grownup punishment. so what is she if shes not a kid anymore and not a grownup yet?

i think some ppl just hate kids but they cant say it aloud so they make everyone at least hate some kids they say are all bad. but i dont think those girls are all bad most kids are part bad part good. thats what ive been saying all this time.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Electronica, I think April Cooper should be charged as an adult. Children have more rights than ever, and more rights should mean more responsibility. Parents are not allowed to spank their kids. Parents have been giving up control to police their kids to the state. I’d be fine with having the state treat them as kids and letting Aprils parents take her into a dark room and use corporal punishment, but thats illegal now, so the state now has complete control to police children.

Our option is to either give more control to the parents to police kids, or give more control to the state. If this April Cooper had been male, had been charged with selling and making meth, a non violent offense, she’d be charged as an adult. Not only would she be charged as an adult but the drug charge would keep her from being able to go to college or get a job. So we have people in prison today who are kids who have been charged as adults for non violent offenses, why should we make an exception for April Cooper? If you don’t want her to go to prison will you agree with giving her corporal punishment as they do in Singapore? Because I’d rather she get corporal punishment but I’ll settle for prison. Hardcastle on the other hand deserves prison, she’s over 18, she has to go to prison for this otherwise it’s just injustice.

I’m in favor of corporal punishment, I’m in favor of parental control, but lots of people have banned that so prison is the only solution we have left to modify the behavior of bad kids. What are your solutions Electronica?

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November 19, 2008

christina garcia

The stress is really getting to me so I am going to just make this as short as possible, Mercades was not made an offer yet, when its made I will review it, even though her attorney isn’t speaking to me. And Amyv and Nav do sound alot alike don’t they…wasn’t it Amyv that accused me of being malipulating? Just look back at that post and than Nav’s post they could both have the same opinion but just look at thier wording, also Amyv had stated that she too was a victim of a beating and now Nav said the same thing, she is letting her emotions get the best of her and she’s slipping. Mercades we not be 18 until the first of the year. I would like the link to this site where they said I am an active member or participant too,and Amyv said the kids were not acting like children…?? Wow, so do the adults in your life act like that then? If so I wouldn’t want to be in your house.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

And for the record, I don’t hate kids. I think the state hates kids. I think the majority of parents love their kids and would want to have more legal authority to police their kids.

I think most parents would prefer to spy on and spank their kids rather than have the state spy on and arrest their kids. I’d personally rather see parents have the legal authority to administer corporal punishment, and it should be video taped and uploaded to Youtube for all the kids to see what happens.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Christina well it seems like Mercades was given a plea deal according to the news reports. And it says the plea deal was given to all suspects.

I’m definitely against the plea deal because it’s a no win situation. If they plea guilty it will simply confirm all that the Sheriff and everyone else said about them, I think this is almost like a trap.

On the other hand if Mercades gets a plea deal and doesn’t take it then it could go to trial. I think it’s looking like a no win situation for Mercades. It’s either deal with the bad press of the plea deal, or deal with the courts and the trial.

In her case because shes not on tape beating people up she might actually benefit from the trial, but I don’t think Hardcastle and April Cooper benefit from the trial and those are the two who are most guilty. I think if they were given plea deals it’s going to be perceived in such a bad way by the general public that it could just make things worse long term if the public perceives that the girls got a slap on the wrist. Not so much Mercades being the focus of this, but Hardcastle and April Cooper getting a slap on the wrist is what will cause the problems, because those two are on tape and are obviously guilty.

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November 19, 2008

Electronica

and amyv i dont think it was april who was yelling at britti to let tori run it doesnt sound like april more like merc i think not certain.

and kayla and merc turned over the vid but no one said they did the right thing doing cops didnt even tell anyone that it was the girls who gave it to them. so you do the right thing and you get no credit at all just trouble thats why many kids say its stupid to trust cops.

and we dont know what really happened when its not on video. its just what the cops say or what tori says but it doesnt have to be right. the cops lie and you get two girls tell the same story and it comes out totally different and thats when theres no beating just some drama. i think the truth is somewhere in between you know but i dont judge if i dont know for sure.

oh and nav your daughter will have myspace and youll not know it is all. i know girls with dads like you they lie a lot and cant tell their parents anything so they get in lots of trouble like drinking too much.

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November 19, 2008

gompertz

Hi, everyone, I am on another computer not home, so only a short comment now.
Greg, while Amy is emotional , I am also, the point though is I have had a productive and pleasant exchange of views with Amy for a long time. Like me she uses facts and logic as well as intuition to look ffor the truth. As for Nav I have yet to see any dign that this person is willing to exchange views in a reasonable way. I invited her
to participate in the discussion by posing some questions, not as a challenge, but to get beyond the anger which helps no one.
Navigator you suggested that I forgot about the victim, and I responded that I have always supported Victoria unconditionally. I asked you what you think should be done to support people like Victoria who are victims of violence, because I think it is important to do things to actually help victims. Outside of repeating the same calls for punishment, which i agree with, any other ideas?
Sorry have to go now.

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November 19, 2008

Electronica

and greg idont have any fetish thats gross. and i didnt say skinny is good i said ppl make fun of me for it. and cause i look young. its gilrs who lok older and not too skinny and not too fat that get popular with boys you know. i dont care now but when im 17 i dont wanne be too skinny or fat or look too young.

and i wasnt being mean i was just thinking if merc goes to jail she could like make the best out of it and maybe get thinner she did look a bit fat on the vid and everyones calling her fat on vlogs. so if she comes out of jail looking god she can laugh at all those who were laughing at her and calling her names.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Greg, I agree withat plea deals should not be offered to all 5 girls. But maybe the prosecution doesn’t really want to deal with a trail and will be happy with any convicitons even on a plea.

Feel better Christina. I’m sure there are better days ahead for you and Mercedes. But the endless waiting must be hard to take.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Does Trench or anyone else on this blog know of a way I can visit here and get to read the last post first like at Topix without having to take 5 minutes and scroll down the entire page from post one on down? Any help would be appareciated because it’s frustrating to have to scroll down so far every time I visit here and haven’t minimized the screen.

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November 19, 2008

Trench Reynolds

Sorry Scott. This blog doesn’t work that way.

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November 19, 2008

Electronica

and greg children get spanked all the time and slapped too idk what your talking about.

to get beat but not hurt is much better for kids than prison. prison is real stupid waste of time and april would get wrose there shed fight all the time and meaybe get injured real bad or maybe injure someone real bad and wouldnt have to study at all and come out real ignorant and be a felon and have no future and like probly get in a real bad fight soon after and kill someone or die.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Thanks Trench.

Does anyone know why sheriff Grady Judd hasn’t said anything about the Victoria Lindsay assault case since mid April 2008? He’s been suspiciously quiet the past 6 months or so.

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

Gom…

Sorry if I did not respond correctly to your post. I believe that I may have misunderstood. I gave you what I believe to be the punishment for the accused. Yes, I believe that we need to have help for victims of violent crime. It will take along time for Tori to recover from this, She will have trouble meeting new friends and have serious trust issues. She has some vioent issues of her own as well that need resolution. I am not a doctor or theropist.. I can not suggest any help for that… if you are, maybe you can suggest.

And for all to know… I am not AMY. Maybe we both just have the same opinion about this situation.

Also, I believe greg asked about threats from Mercedes since the attack – I do not know. I will tell you this though… if this video did not exsist… there would have been many. Not just from Mercedes – but all of them. They would OWN her… trust me.. I know.

Amy, Did something like this happen to you as well? How interesting. Now I know why you feel the same way as I do on many points. Once you have been there – you know the helplessness you have over the control of your own life sometimes. It took a longtime for me to feel safe. Withoout having to look behind me to see if someone was there, it is not a great feeeling and I HOPE Tori does not have to feel like that… it robs your childhood. This is why I STAND UP FOR HER. Because others, will not.

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November 19, 2008

Scott

Navigator, Tori said recently that’s she’s afraid when she’s around strangers. That’s sad and it will take her a long time to get over. If ever. I hope she can. But when a strange girl is eyeing Tori I bet Tori is thinking this girl knows who I am and probably thinks I’m the girl who ran my mouth and got my butt kicked on the internet. This emtional fear will be hard for Tori to overcome.

But there are also physical issues for Tori to deal with because of the assault such as a loss if eyesight in her left eye. And someone recently posted a link on Topix to Tori’s little sister Kelsie’s Myspace page. There are photos of Tori smiling before the assault and you can see that her upper front teeth were aligned together. But on her recent television interviews it’s apparent that Tori’s upper front teeth got spread out from getting punched in the mouth so much during the assault because there is now a significant amount of space between her upper front teeth. That sad and another problem Tori has to deal with. Who is going to buy this girl braces so her teeth can be once again properly realigned? Tori or her parents shouldn’t have to pay for any dental or medical bills she has incurred since the assault.

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November 19, 2008

Navigator

Scott, that is why this has to be prosecuted and the accused need to pay. They need to pay in more ways then one. The families that have decided not to raise their children to respect others, and to treat others as though you would want to be treated, need to pay. They will have lawsuits against them shortly after this case and I believe that is the biggest fear of the parents, including Garcia. She will loose everything (which I am sure is not much) and so that is why she is grasping at every straw of who to sue herself (Grady Judd) or who’s talkshow she can get her daughter on to make some money. I am sure there will be attempts at writing a book or a movie somewhere down the line as well… and the hopes that she will make money from it somehow.
I am not saying that people deserve to live on the street because of what actions their kids take, but after such a horrible thing, I will say that they deserve to pay for what has happened to this girl and any past or future medical and mental anguish she has. They need to suffer the consequences of the actions that they have taught their children.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

&ldquoif this video did not exsist&hellip there would have been many. Not just from Mercedes – but all of them. They would OWN her&hellip trust me.. I know. &ldquo

Navigator, I’m not against the video existing. I’m glad it exists, because this gave us the opportunity to end this behavior once and for all, not just for Victoria but for all victims. Sadly I’m seeing that opportunity get squandered. The prosecution blew it by offering a plea and by handling the trial like this. First the tape probably shouldn’t have been released like it was. Sure the police should have had the tape, and yes eventually it should have came to light in the media, but only after we could be sure the people on that tape are going to be punished.

Now that the tape is out there and the people on tape aren’t going to be punished, the nightmare situation is happening. You are right they probably would have owned Victoria because Victoria does not show a willingness to fight back and seems to be responding on fear. But this sorta bullying is exactly what leads to shootings, had it been another person, the victim might have simply begun carrying a gun around and probably would have started using it. It’s not like threats work on everyone, and this bully behavior gets people killed when they bully one person too many.

I had wanted to sacrifice April Cooper and Hardcastle to the justice system as a way to PREVENT the trend and the violence which will be associated with it. The only way to put an end to it would have been to give them prison time. If they don’t get prison time it’s enough to empower bullies to feel like they are invincible, and this is going to back victims and good people into a corner and if one person cannot take on 4 people in hand to hand combat they’ll just resort to guns. I’ve seen it happen before.
Suddenly the former victim becomes the bully and has the power of the gun.

I had hoped this publicity would be used to reduce violence rather than promote it. If these girls get a slap on the wrist, a lot of kids are going to respond to being beat up and put on Youtube by getting a gun and killing people. This is what happens in school shootings, can’t you all see the trends? It started when we were kids.

Now the bullying that was making people shoot up their schools will be uploaded to the internet? We think there will be less violence now?

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November 19, 2008

gompertz

Scott and Navigator, you both make important points about the aftermath of a violent attack. Whatever the physical damage may be, there is the psychological effect which may last a lifetime. Without going into details I can say I know what it is like to be bullied, though it was fifty years ago, something stays with you and it changes you. In Victoria’s case there is this added danger: those who did this to her are still there. I had hoped that a trial would clear up the question of whether any of her attackers have any regrets. Now with a plea deal they could be on the streets in a short time with no guarantee that they will not make good their threat to beat her again. I am sure Victoria understands the threat and hope take defensive measures, like surrounding herself with friends who can protect her.

Since I don’t know Victoria personally I can do nothing specific for her. if I were wealthy it would be different. LIke many others I have sent a few letters and offered advice and encouragement, and I don’t delude myself into thinking it did any good.

The amount of interest this case has generated may have at least one beneficial result, in that it raised awareness of the problem of violence. I think we all know people like Victoria, and it is not always easy to know how to help. Clearly, the first thing is to get justice in the courts and see some convictions. Personally I have never placed any faith in the justice system because it is corrupt, and we all know that vicious criminals are rarely punished enough. Part of the problem is that groups like the ACLU believe there should be no punishment at all for criminals, and apparently they are okay with the idea that only victims should be punished.

Next, there is need for medical and therapeutic intervention. I am not in any of those fields so all I can say is that also is part of the solution. But I think we must look beyond that. I agree with Carl Jung’s observation that no one is ever cured of their troubles until they find a spiritual solution. I have been making that point on this blog for several months and a lot of people probably think I’m nuts and maybe I am. But maybe a loss of spiritual values is just what got us into this mess, with children beating each other up and putting it on the internet (yes, putting it on the internet makes it worse, because it glorifies and validates it for too many people, especially the young).

The word “spiritual” means different things for different people. For me it means adherence to certain principles of eastern philosophy, and that includes an attentiveness to the here and now business of physical survival through the cultivation of some martial arts. There have been a few times when knowing a little about self-defense has saved my life, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether you are riding the NYC subways after midnight or walking around central Florida in daytime, it is good to know. And for Victoria it would be beneficial for obvious reasons. I would even recommend it for the ones who attacked her and it really should be offered in correctional facilities. It teaches self-discipline and control of emotions, and provides a sense of purposeto people whose lives appear meaningless. Okay, all I’m saying here is that it might help in some cases. Whether Brittany or April can be rehabilitated in any way, through therapy or tai chi, we don’t know, and if they walk away with no punishment they will not have any incentive to try to turn their lives around.

Anyway that is one suggestion. As for other issues that I want to discuss, such as why I have a more favorable attitude to Mercades and her mother than others here, I have to leave that to another time, because I am rather exhausted from work and if I don’t stop now I will be keying in my sleep. gn

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November 19, 2008

GregS

And despite what most people probably think, most victims would not handle this as well as Victoria did. I think Victoria is either uniquely non violent or extremely fearful. There are generally only two responses to fear however, some become more aggressive and seek to carry weapons, and some become more fearful and hide in their house from the bullies on the outside.

I’m hoping Victoria doesn’t end up collapsing into her shell. Lets assume all girls get just a slap on the wrist and are set free, how will this influence the bullies in the audience?

They will have seen the entire sequence of a girl being locked in the room, beat up on tape over something she said on Myspace, having the tape uploaded to Youtube to remind her and the world of her abuse for all eternity, and the worst punishment we can get for this is community service?

A lot of people will gladly do a bit of community service in exchange for beating up someone they hate and uploading it to Youtube, because who’s really being punished the most in that situation? The bully gets to kick ass and brag about it for the rest of their life in exchange for some community service.

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November 19, 2008

GregS

Gomp the bullies need to see psychiatrists even more than the victims. Something is clearly wrong with the brains of Hardcastle and April Cooper.

The problem is even if we did get all of these girls help, by not punishing anyone for it, it sends the message that this behavior is okay and that EVERYONE is a victim of bullying, including the bullies.

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November 20, 2008

Scott

Nav, I agree this case should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But it won’t be if plea deals are taken. I am interested to find out why kind of plea deals have been offered to these girls especially Hardcastle and Cooper.

And Nav I’n not sure Tori and her parents who seem to be forgiving people have it in them to file civil suits against any or all of the Infamous 8 teens that played roles in her assault and improsonment. I doubt they would want to put any of those families on the street in thimes like these even though those family have been unkind to the Lindsay’s since the assault.

Gomp, Tori will probably have physical and emotional scars to last a lifetime. But I hope time can heal her wounds and broken heart. It might be easier for Tori to deal with this if she made some good money off TV interviews and articles. But that hasn’t happened. She has medical bills to manage and she and her parents seem liike good middle class people without alot of money. Not only do they have legal issues to deal with they have financial issues to deal with as well. It’s a shame Tori didn’t strike when the media iron was hot about this case back in April. She would have made alot more money then. Now this case is under the media radar and only interviews by Tori, plea deals or a trial will bring it back into the mainstream media.

Greg, I think Tori is fearful of people in Lakeland because she went to the police and some people resent her for that. Can you imagine that? Tori was told by the girls in the car that if she went to the police they would beat her worse the next time. Now that’s frightening. From what I know Tori isn’t even living in Lakeland anymore and that’s sad. She shouldn’t have to leave town for what happened to her.

And Greg I think now that plea deals have been offered that slaps on the wrist are coming and not serious jail time. Kids will look at that and think damn they did this to that girl and basically got away with it. And that’s the wrong message to send. I don’t want the girls spending alot of time in jail. But some time in the slammer is required in my opinion because of the physical and mental crimes they committed against Tori and for the serious physical and mental damage they did to her.

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November 20, 2008

christina garcia

“Gomp, Tori will probably have physical and emotional scars to last a lifetime. But I hope time can heal her wounds and broken heart. It might be easier for Tori to deal with this if she made some good money off TV interviews and articles. But that hasn&rsquot happened. ”

I am only going to say this …she recieved money, but I will not disclose how much, because frankly it doesn’t matter, she deserves it and thats the end of that right? Just know she was paid. Gomp email me and I’ll give you more detail.

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November 20, 2008

Garland

“Greg, I think Tori is fearful of people in Lakeland because she went to the police and some people resent her for that. Can you imagine that? Tori was told by the girls in the car that if she went to the police they would beat her worse the next time. Now that&rsquos frightening. From what I know Tori isn&rsquot even living in Lakeland anymore and that&rsquos sad. She shouldn&rsquot have to leave town for what happened to her.”

Personally, I think that she should definitely leave town &amp start all over, to get away from all that drama, including rumors &amp lies being spread about her. I don’t blame her for doing that.

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November 20, 2008

Scott

Christina, the money Tori made on her 2 TV interviews probably doesn’t even cover her medical bills. But you might know better than I do about that. Maybe if there’s still interest in the television media for Tori then she might be able to make enough money above and beyond her medical and legal bills. But I have my doubts about that.

Anyway with all this plea news the other day nothing has happened with any of the 5 girls accepting a plea bargain. I wonder what’s going on.

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November 20, 2008

christina garcia

This is why I kept my mouth shut all this time, I’ve known about the money since the day before the interview. I never said anything negative about it not being right or that it would pay for all of her bills. I am here to defend my kid in some ways and if I can offer additional information then I’ll offer it, but please becareful where you put my name, some people on here take something misinterpret it and run with it, and I just can’t take anymore of that. Thank you

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November 20, 2008

amyv

Christinia – Last blog to you your not worth it. Just have to say if you think I can not defend myself and need help you must be mistaking me for your daughter. I do not need a posey to take care of my business. I am not that much of a coward nor am I that cruel. But, I can defend myself without resorting to violence, I can stand my ground against anything anyone has to say against me.

Navigator – Do you not find it almost to the point of amazement that people can make any comment about the victim they choose. But, if you say anything against Mercades you are doing so based on emotions. What part of the whole thing being caught on tape do people not find evidence enough. Your eyes don’t lie.

I base my facts on this case just as you do. The video and the victims testimony. Pretty much don’t pay any attention to what excuses these teenage girls or their parents come up with.

But, as you can see on this particular blog this tactic has worked for Mercades. Not with everyone but some.

If Victoria does have psychological problems that surely is no ones business here. However, it is much more acceptable here to bring these issues up lately than the fact that ALL of the girls have severe psychological problems.

And, I do not thnk Victoria stating on the tape that “Mercades your supposed to be my friend” should in any way reflect favorably on Mercades. Quite the opposite. This was a plea for help. Which was cruely ignored.

Her only crime was not being a bad friend. Not hitting her could get her off on assault and battery. But, kidnapping, she was driving that car and tampering with the witness are very real charges.

Their are some who will readily agree with anything that is feed to them by the person who has the most to gain on this blog. But, will question the motives of others who have absolutely nothing to gain but being a victims advocate.

I do not think that plea deals should be an optition in this case. This should go to trail. This would suggest to me that these girls will get exactly what people have thought since the beginning. Nothing more than a slap on the wrist. No wonder Victoria would want to get out of town. So, this seems to point towards the theory that some of us have had all along. Florida is not to hard on teenagers. They just continue to role repeat offenders through the courts.

How can this woman blatantly say she merely stated , “I don’t know why she said things she couldn’t back up.” and I don’t know why SHE (AS IN THE ONE AND ONLY VICTIM IN THIS CASE) put her self in this situation. And then in the next break has people believing but oops, I am not bashing the victim. She must certainly is and every chance she gets. She just twist it around to look like (Oh, but I am not trying to say anything against the victim). ie. mental problem mention. i.e. her family knows better than anyone the victims situation and problems, i.e. her last blog “well I refrained from saying anything about her getting money or anything about it not being right, etc. enough to pay all her bills.” B.S. that refraining from saying anything. These kinds of comments have been made repeatedly and I for one am absolutely sick of it. And then “come to this site and I will give you more info. as if their is more back up towards her corruption claims. Not falling for that one either.

Yes I am angry and if emotion is not acceptable when such a horrible thing was done to a teenager girl I don’t belong here. Navigator you see through her and Yes, I have seen through her the whole time.

Wake up people who has the most to gain on this post. But, some without any evidence what so ever, believe everything that this mother says.

I know 99% of the people on this post are good people. They do believe that the victim did not deserve this for any reason. But, more and more is being made of the mistreatment of these girls.
If they did not make the tape it could not have been put on t.v. And obviously it was made to get them 15 minutes of fame so be careful what you wish for. You can’t blame the sheriff for showing something they were obviously quit proud of making.

And don’t get to cocky about a suit against the sheriff before you win anything. And stop with out any doubt bashing the boy when we do not have any evidence except for preconceived ideas and a mother who gains greatly by making accusations against him. If no one else will stick up for another one of this girls victims I will. As I recall the myspace provided for Mercades also displayed a rebel flag.

GET BACK TO THESE VICTIMS RIGHTS. PERIOD. SOMEDAY IT MIGHT BE ONE OF YOU. A VICTIM IS A VICTIM PERIOD.

Electronica – you and I both know I am not your mother. Not quite sure what that comment is all about but whatever. I will stick up for you on this blog as you can be blamed for all sorts of things. Be careful.

I hate to bring up this fact but, I am only trying to make a point. If Mercades is a size 7, she had to have lost quit a bit of weight since this tape. Because their is no way she was at the time of this tape. I am a size 6 so I only compare this by one size bigger. No way. The only reason I bring this up is not because of the size of Mercades but, the amount of lies her mother is willing to dish out.

May justify before served for the TRUE victims of these girls.

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November 20, 2008

Sarto

I have followed this long and interesting discussion from beginning to end and admire everyone who has taken part. I can sympathize with Christina as the parent who wants to defend her kid, but I think she is playing a bit of a double game by claiming to be on Tori’s side as well.

I can see why the prosecution is offering plea deals because nobody knows how a trial is going to turn out. At least this way, they can nail down something positive. Will they just slap the girls’ hands? In a high profile case like this, with many people following the details, they have their own butts to cover, and so I don’t think they dare. The fact that they have offered plea deals doesn’t mean that the girls and their lawyers will accept those deals. I suspect that Christina already has an idea what those ideas are, especially for her daughter. There might be a trial, after all.

As far as punishment is concerned? Justice will not be served if BH does not do some serious jail time. I think she is clearly a psychopath and needs to be in jail for the sake of society. I can imagine her sad future. She will either be in the pen or dead, ten years from now.

April also acted like a psychopath. To hit somebody forty times in twelve seconds and then to hit her again and again is terrible. But, because of her age, I hope she doesn’t get serious time. But she needs to sit things out somewhere for a long time and think about what she has done.

The same is true for B. Mayes. Her work with the camera made things worse and her own expressed delight at Tori’s anguish was sickening. I hope she also gets time as a vicious and sadistic accomplice. She was seventeen while April was fourteen. What is an seventeen year-old doing hanging out with a fourteen year-old? Her photo bucket showed the two were real buddies. Doesn’t say a lot for B. Mayes.

As far as Mercades is concerned, I think she was a manipulator. She does not do her own dirty work. For instance, she hired a boy to beat up her ex-boyfriend. In the film, which I watched several times with great sadness, she sits on the couch to watch the drama play out. It was Mercades who said, “You brought it on yourself” to Tori, after April hit her forty times, and refused to give her a phone. She just sat there and watched BH bait Tori, building up to the beating. She didn’t say anything. The “don’t hit the shelf remark–Papa’s ashes or not–sound like the choreographer speaking. When it came time to pick up Gramma, she had no trouble bringing things to an end. And she did drive the car, and she was the one who threatened Tori that things would be really bad if she went to the cops.

Mercades’ only positive point is that she did not strike Tori. But I think she manipulated things and got what she wanted. I hope she gets some jail time, especially because this violence was part of a pattern of violence.

Ditto for TH. She said she wished things would stop but was afraid, but there she was, shrieking insults in between beatings. A miniature bully. And Tori said she did get hit by TH. I think the victim gets the last word on this one. Tori said B. Mayes also hit her. Take the victim’s word for it…she is the one who knows.

However this turns out, everyone has to live with what happened. People will try to put it out of their minds, but the tape is there and it will be resurrected over and over again. If the five bullies ever do grow up, somebody will have saved the tape and it will surface and they will have to face it, again and again. If they are not ashamed now, they will be when their spouses or kids and grandkids see what they did. I can’t see any of them living happily ever after in a successful marriage.

Tori clearly has problems of her own. But this has been a wakeup call and she seems to have behaved wonderfully in the interviews. She is very smart and I hope she will go to college, get a good education, and have a good life.

To tell you the truth, I am praying for everybody involved because we all have within us this ability to be cruel, especially when we are in the company of others with a similar frame of mind. Christina, I pray especially for you. You are 34 and Mercades will be leaving home. She will have to take control of her own life and you cannot live it for her. You have your other daughter to watch after. Unless somebody has offered to buy your book, you will have a hard time selling it. Forget about your lawsuit with the sheriff. When push comes to shove, juries side will law enforcement, especially in conservative states like Florida. Just work on your own good life. I am impressed with everyone who has written on this thread.

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

Sarto, thank you for providing a fresh perspective by your thoughtful insights. Now, since you say you have been following these posts from the beginning, you know that I will disagree to some extent with your appraisal of Christina and her daughter, but I’d rather not get into that with you. You must have read my posts here I don’t have to repeat myself, you have simply come to a different conclusion and I respect everyone’s right to have their own views, but I may want to add a few comments about it at the end.

I agree with your assessment of BH and AC, they are violent and disturbed and to let them off with a wrist-slap would be a travesty. The same for Mayes, who did a good job of feigning remorse at the original arraignment. Perhaps she was hiding onions under her long flowing tresses. LOL One thing I go by, I look into their eyes and I see a toughness and brutality that has hardened into a character trait that would be difficult top eradicate. And if they do get away with it, as now seems possible, well, I think you will be hearing about those three again and not in a pleasant way. True, Kayla Hassel seems less vile, but that might be because she has to consider “how little she is” and cultivate a more gentle image. “Miniature bully”, yes. With Mercades I don’t see that in her eyes, she looks more clueless and maybe a little shocked. Anyway that is my opinion and I find it sad that people get angry that I don’t join the feeding frenzy but prefer to make up my own mind and of course I may be wrong.

It is true that the perpetrators will have to live with what they did forever, because the evidence is out there and can’t be undone. It is out there in cyberspace and also it has been downloaded by many disturbed people who, sadly, enjoy watching it. The problem is that not only the perpetrators but the victim has to live with that situation. Wherever she goes Victoria will have to live with the aftermath of this event, and be known as “the girl who got beat up.” You express the hope that she will get on with her life and finish her education, and that is a noble wish, but can she do it after this? Time will tell and I hope we can see future reports on her progress, and I will rejoice with all good people if she really gets beyond this and realizes her potential. Incidentally, note that I refer to her as “Victoria” and not “Tori.” That is just my small way of saying that I respect her privacy and do not presume to be on familiar terms, but that’s just my choice.

If you have read all the posts you also know that much has been made here of the larger issues involving this case. People all over the world are aware of what is being decided right now in the court at Bartow, and violent types are watching closely to see what kind of message is sent. I fear for the worst, because I doubt that the sheriff or his buddies at SAO have any intention of following through with a trial. I think the sheriff got the media exposure he wanted and enhanced his reputation with the public. And while many are quick to use the word “manipulator” I see the sheriff as a manipulator, and all those who worship him as a living legend are being fooled. And of course they want to be fooled because people want heroes to look up to.
But really, if the plea deal leads to a wrist-slap, how can we still believe that Judd’s toughness was anything but empty posturing? Like the hype about Schwarzenegger, the “terminator” who was going to solve all the problems of California with his macho image, it all amounts to nothing but business as usual. We will see, but I have no hope that the government or the justice system will provide real relief for the problems that beset our society. And in case you are wondering, yes, I am serious when I say society needs to be reorganized on different principles, and that eastern philosophy can help to create new forms of social order beginning with grass-roots movements. The violent people have control of the instruments of power and there is no hope that the good and peaceful people can fight them on their own terms. Good people must open their eyes and understand that salvation does not lie with sheriffs and terminators. It is not easy but we must take control of our lives, for our own sakes and for Victoria and all victims everywhere.
Amy , I am disappointed. How easily you fall back into the pattern of anger. Remember that anger is a destructive emotion and you will only harm yourself. That is all I have to say now, I fear you will be offended if I seem to be preaching, and I really don’t want to offend you. Further, I assure you that I have no special favorites here, like you I only want truth and justice.

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November 21, 2008

Navigator

I think that Tori should go on EVERY talkshow she can find and get mega rich off this if she wants. It is funny how Garcia does not condone that Tori has done this, but wants to do it herself. The victim deserves any moeny made off this violent crime.

I believe it would be the best for Tori to move away as well. Start over, make REAL friends. But, she should not have to RUN away and be in fear of her life. YOU know if these girls get away with this they will be after her for the rest of her life… and that is my fear of these plea deals. What? a few weeks of community servce for beating someone over and over again or manipulating the entire event. NO!! Like I have said many times before – if this happens you WILL see worse in the future. All these so called lawyers on here should know that. Once you set a president by prosecuting a case with little punishment, other lawyers will use those verdicts in other violent cases and others will get off with even lessor degrees of punishment. So, little Johnny gets beat up, just not as bad – his hearing was only lost for a week., and was only hit by one person… so he only gets 1 day of comunity service. DO YOU GET IT YET.
Other bullies will realize they can get away with it and they will OWN everyone.

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November 21, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv:

You bashing on my daughter with your very inmature remarks just proves what kind of person you are. If a gave one shit about you, maybe those comments would’ve hurt me, but I don’t.

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November 21, 2008

christina garcia

Gomp: You won’t be proven wrong, and to be honest after reading all this anger and making fun of my daughter ( Note not critisizing her) but making fun of her and then all these false posts like ‘ Mercades said you brought it on yourself” ? wth?? Everyone who knows anything about this case knows who said that! And it wasn’t Mercades. I probably won’t take the plea deal for my daughter because I want tthe truth out! As far as me making money off this case….I have said before and I will say again I am not writing a book about the violent attack on Tori, I am writing my story that starts from the day she was arrested, so how am I discussing the beating? My book is going to be how a mother gets through all this crap, and who knows I may suffer from a heart attack and everyone will then know how she gets through huh? I can feel bad for the victim and still defend my kid. What you want to do is to say all these things about Mercades in hopes that I am going to lash out on the victim, but guess what? Not a chance! You are the one who needs to back up and regroup. I have all the evidence I need in Jake the Snake’s case. Oh, and by the way, Tori made a call to her friend to meet them at CVS so how the hell is that kidnapping? What is wrong with you, READ the statements before you go preaching on a subject which you know nothing about.

I have always said Mercades made a way for Tori to get her things without problems, she went in the house brought her things out to the friend’s car, with her friend which also had a phone, and chose to go back in the dam house after Mercades told her to leave. That’s I should expect from a kid, but I am open minded and learned to see that she should’ve still tried to stop the fight, but anything else you try to say about her well, we just butt heads.

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

Only have a few moments today, but I cannot help but ask: Navigator, who are you talking to? When you say that plea deals would be bad for the reasons you mention, who exactly on this post has disagreed with that? Why do you always sound like you are looking for a fight? No one is challenging you on the points you make, and our differences involve only one of the defendants.
When you say there needs to be punishment, who is disagreeing with you? Who has said that any of them, including Mercades, should go free with no punishment. No one has said that. I share the frustration at seeing the inevitable fizzling out of this case, and outside of vigilante justice I see no solution. The remedies I have proposed involve a total commitment to an alternate way of life, and few are willing to undertake that. I get the impression you take solace in setting up imaginary opponents to knock down, but that will not solve anything. If you are a personal acquaintance of Victoria, that is good. You fierce devotion to her cause is the kind of thing that could help her if you are a personal friend of hers. If you don’t know her, then you are in the same position as the rest of us, and I do not see how your observations about the victim are different from mine.

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November 21, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I refer to Vicvtoria as Tori because it’s easier to write than Victoria is. )

Sarto, thank you for such a well thought out post. But it was Kayla and not Mercedes who said to Tori that she brought it all on herself. And it was Kayla who kept inciting Hardcastle to keep pummeling Tori by screaming at Tori. Brittini was tired and her left hand knuckles were bleeding but she kept punching Tori partly because Kayla was yelling at Tori getting Brittini fired up to do more damage to Tori.

No matter what happens in a criminal trial or with plea deals I sure hope Tori files civil suits against everyone she can who damaged her and changed her life forever but I doubt she will.

Nav, I agree with you that Tori should do all the interviews she wants and make as much money as she can off this tragic event in her life. But I think that ship has sailed for Tori because this case isn’t in the media spotlight like it was back in April. Tori should have struck while the iron was hot back then but didn’t probably because she was scared and broken spiritually. And who could blame her? Unless there is a well publicized criminal trial with alot of media attention I don’t see Tori being in demand for alot of interviews with significant dollars paid to Tori for those interviews. Only time will tell what happens with Tori and interviews. And even more importantly than being paid good money for interviews I hope it’s threaputic and a cathardic experience for her to do interviews.

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November 21, 2008

Scott

Christina, how is you mom holding up? Does she see a light at the end of the tunnel with this whole mess? I hope so.

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November 21, 2008

navigator

Gomp, I think that ALL involved should be punished, including Mercedes, and you do not. I am talking to those who believe that she is somehow not as guilty in this. You watch the video again and you will see a girl watching everything play out just like she wanted. If she had popcorn it would have made it even more obvious. It is such a joke that you are so brainwashed by this women, that you can not see the truth, right in front of your face. I will not tell you my relationship with Tori, because it is none of your business wheether I know her or not. I am standing beside her because I have been there and I don’t want my daughter to run across some group of idiots like this, when she grows up, and not have a leg to stand on in court. This is not just about 1 group of kids and you seem to not understand that. You make statements that you are backing up Mercedes and her mother because of some secret association you have with them, but they are the prime example of the people I would never want around my children. April and Hardcastle will be put away – that I am certain – but Mercedes needs to go down right along with them.

Garcia, so you really are writing a book. You are a sick person. ALL you care about is making money off of someone elses hardship. I bet you saw dollar signs the moment your daughter did this. This is why you decided to come back into her life. Before, you could give a dam about what she did or who she was with. You didn’t even know these girls and they were supposed to be her freinds! What a great mother you have been. lol. I bet after all settles down and you realize you can’t make a dime off of this – you will disappear again out of her life. If you do make money off of the 1 page book about what you know about how hard it was on poor ol’ you.. I hope it ALL goes to Tori.

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November 21, 2008

christina garcia

“This is why you decided to come back into her life. Before, you could give a dam about what she did or who she was with. You didn&rsquot even know these girls and they were supposed to be her freinds! What a great mother you have been. lol.”

LOL you obvoiulsy don’t know our family, I have never left her life, just another example for my law suit and I have printed your post out to show cause for my suit along with many others. When Grady Judd decided to tell that lie, everyone who knew our family said ” Oh Shit!” What a liar and Christina isn’t going to let that lie. And you know what? They’re right!!!! I am her mother I have custody of my child, and she has always been in my life. Why in the holy hellwould I chose now to come back if I was gone? And mine and Gomp’s association are strictly from here, why would you make such a stupid comment like that? Anyway, I don’t have anything else to say exceot thanks for your help with the civil suit, I appreciate it, we have to bring the corruption down, and it I will be the one to do it : ) He met his match the day he lied on Christina Garcia!

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November 21, 2008

christina garcia

And Scott:

We are doing as best can be expected, and yes I see the light but she is very depressed, she can’t believe how “the police” the people that are suppose to be here to protect everyone could be the ringleader of a mafia that tells tall stories just for a political agenda. Using a child for this?…He should be ashamed of himself.

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November 21, 2008

Sarto

I have dealt with high school students for most of my life. When I was a young teacher, I was appalled to discover that girls could be such bullies. I used to call it the victim of the week. But recently, we have come to see more violence and girls ganging up on other girls in larger groups.

When a person joins a mob he/she adopts the perspective of the mob. It’s almost as if the victim becomes a human sacrifice. Sociologists write about this phenomenon. The anguish of the victim is supposed to be the right order of things and nobody empathizes with the victim. And so when Victoria called the cops on the soft ball girls, B Mayes and April were outraged. She should have allowed herself to be beaten into the ground, and they were going to right that wrong if they possibly could. And they did.

In dealing with high school bullies now become college students, I was amazed to see that they still did not have any insight into the evil they had done. Somehow, the victim was the real villain. And those who were hangers on in the crowd also continue to see life through the eyes of the main bully. They could not understand why the victims were not interested in attending the class reunion.

So, in that group in Mercades’ house, nobody was feeling sorry for Victoria. Even Cara admitted she did not see how bad the thing was until she saw the video later. You notice that Kayla and Mercades still had the video and were still savoring what they had done? If I remember correctly, they all got together after the beating (including the boys) to gloat and laugh about Victoria’s plight and rejoice over the blows they had struck. Kayla did one thing right at least, when she refused to make a copy for BH to put in her treasure chest.

I give all the credit to Mercades’ grandmother. She was the hero who got the two girls to turn the video over and she is the one who gave it to the police. Christina, I am sorry if I am judging you, but I cannot imagine you doing such a thing.

The sheriff did a good thing by releasing the video. Suddenly (maybe) the girls saw themselves through the eyes of others. If there had been a trial with the video not publicly revealed, the defense would have made certain it was suppressed because it is so terrible to watch.

When she was shedding tears, B. Mayes was probably thinking about that, and not about the grief Victoria had suffered. And then there is that shot of BH, looking ugly as sin awaiting her time before the judge. She seems to be looking inward and even cringing. Is she going over the whole thing in her own mind, thinking about how her brutality was looking to others, especially her family? A conscience? No. Just the realization that she had been found out.

I think you are right about Mercades. She does these outrageous things and then is clueless. Start a reign of terror: Stab her boyfriend, hire somebody to beat him up, try to get Victoria to join the cause, try to run him off the road, let the place she was living in become Victoria’s torture chamber (what else can you call it?) and she stands there before the world, eyes vacant, biting her lip, clueless.

If she authored the Myface site which shows regret, maybe she was finally starting to get it. But it was way, way too late. She said she is ready to be sentenced now. Just to get it over with? Or does she understand the harm she has done to somebody she called one of her best friends on her Facebook page?

One of the things I hope Mercades broods on is her betrayal. Can you imagine what a half hour of torture looks like? Sounds like? Feels like? Victoria’s fear and despair? A half hour. How many blows were landed in five separate beatings? In the first beating, I counted forty iln a space of twelve seconds. How many insults over the half hour? What goes through your head when you realize these former friends might be about to murder you? Victoria talked about feeling utterly alone and helpless Mercades was the only hope the poor girl had, and Mercades sat on the couch and left her with the hyenas, speaking up only once:to save the shelf and Poppa’s ashes.

And then there is that final picture, BH forcing Victoria to pose for a shot so she could gloat over the aftermath. Who is holding that cell phone camera in the corner? The hand seems plump. Only one plump girl in that room. And then there is the conversation in the car afterward, the three girls being phony sweet with the victim, telling her she did not look so bad, after all the pounding. It was the “friend” who had the final word: “Tell the cops and we will make it worse.”

No doubt, Mercades deserves her jail time and guilty memories for the rest of her life. I will be interested in the apology each girl finally makes, just before their sentencing. I hope the judge takes into consideration the fact that Victoria has suffered permanent eye damage and forces the families of the girls to pay her medical bills. The girls do not deserve life in prison, but they do deserve sentences that align with the role each one played and the malice of their outrageous deeds. For an endless half hour they kept it up, stopping only when Mercades looked at her watch and realized it was time to pick up her grandmother.

I am re-hashing all of this because we have to remember what we are finally talking about really happened to a real person. There was pain and horror and mob behavior caused it.

Christina, I hope you write your book because you do have a story to tell. I think it would make an interesting read. But the simple fact is, any book is hard to sell. I hope you contact someone now and get some advance money down. Writing a book takes huge time and discipline. After the legal stuff is over, stay focused on that.

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November 21, 2008

Scott

Christina, I commend your mother for turning over the tape to the police. But I bet she never would have imagined what would have ensued after she did the right thing and turned over the video of Tori’s assault.

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

Sarto, times seem to have changed a lot since I was in high school in the early 60’s. Guys would get into vicious fights, girls hardly ever. But what was different then was that there was an unwritten code of honor. Fights were strictly one on one, and the fight ended abruptly whenever one participant gave up by some signal of surrender. Never did I see a single punch thrown against an opponent who had stopped fighting back. Today the jumpings and mass beatings seem to be the norm. Why have things deteriorated so much?
My family did not even have a TV until I was eight years old, VCR’s did not exist and the “edgy” movies were off-limits to anyone below the age of 18. Today any child can access videos with the most sick and brutal content. I would think that anyone exposed to such images, which some consider “entertainment”, would be influenced in a negative way, and perhaps come to see violence as normal. Then it is a short step to acting on this notion in the company of others who share the same impression. Of course this is an easy argument to make, but to what extent it is true, you may be better able to judge based on your first-hand experience. Anyway, it is easy to get the impression that the high schools more resemble a war zone than a learning institution, with all the negative consequences that we see in children growing up in places like Iraq or Bosnia. I don’t think that’s too much of an exaggeration.
It is also why I don’t have as great a sense of outrage as some over the acts perpetrated by young people under these circumstances. I certainly favor punishment, yes, even harsh punishment, but not out of vindictiveness. We need to punish these acts to send as strong a signal as possible that violence is not the accepted norm for resolving problems, and to offer the chance for correction and rehabilitation, if possible. And no, I don’t think it is always possible. It seems that some children are just “born evil” and for all we know some of the Lakeland miscreants may be like that.
You speak of the apology each one would make at sentencing. Well, indications are there will be no apology and no real sentence if they get probation or house arrest. We have all seen how violent criminals are simply not punished and victims are treated as if they were the guilty ones. I truly believe the system is broken beyond repair and we need to look in other directions to save the human race from destroying itself.

Your comments about Mercades are interesting, and I have been down the same road, and I really hope that she feels remorse, and feels it deeply. Let no one think that I don’t take these things into account. My point is, whatever I may feel about Mercades and her involvement, I don’t see how that affects my support for Victoria. Since you present your point of view in a well-reasoned way, I think everyone can welcome it as a form of constructive criticism.
Just to reiterate a point I have made before, I think that there is great difference between people who are violent and those who are peaceful. Peaceful people can be transformed into violent people by undergoing some bad experiences, but the transition is not easy. So I don’t see Mercades as a person for whom violence comes naturally. I have known people who are violent, and when one of these people wants to hurt you, they do so quickly, easily, and efficiently. The acts she is charged with, stabbing, pushing, “bumper cars” look more like the results of emotional problems which can be dealt with by counseling, rather than the acts of a thug. We can discuss this and disagree. and perhaps reach a consensus.
But whatever verdict we reach on the guilt of Mercades or the others, you are right that we must remember that these things happened to a real person and that person suffered real and perhaps irreparable harm. If we learn anything from this, it is that we must be more serious in seeking solutions to the problems that cause these horrors to take place, and to find ways to help all the victims of such crimes.

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

Navigator, I have given way to anger at times on these posts, but I try to avoid that because it is a weakness that only harms myself. You, on the other hand, seem very comfortable with being perpetually angry. It must require a lot of energy to maintain that level of intensity. If the cause is just that is not a bad thing. Still, it is dangerous if anger becomes a habit, a mere reflex, and sometimes I fear you have let that happen. Here, you tell me it is none of my business whether you know Victoria personally, and of course it is none of my business. The point is, I did not ask you to reveal that information because I respect everyone’s privacy. If you look at what I said I was making the point that I have made before, that the way we show support for a victim we know is necessarily different from the way we support a victim we do not know. Yet as usual you prefer insults to reasonable discussion.
Then you compound the offense by alluding to a “secret association” I have with Mercades and her mother. There is no secret association.
My reasons for having the views I hold have been expressed here by examination of the same facts available to everyone, and where I go beyond the facts to allow feelings to influence my judgment, I have freely indicated my reasons.

Your attacks on Christina Garcia must bring you great gratification. The timing of your renewed appearance here is interesting. Surely you knew that the day of the hearing was the perfect time to find the parents of the defendants in a state of agitation and increased vulnerability. Yes, I would say it was equally wrong to do that to the parents of Ms. Hardcastle or Ms. Cooper, and if they were to decide to post here, I would invite them to participate too. And I would be honest and tell them that I think their children should spend a considerable time in a correctional facility. But I would not attack them with vile insults because it serves no other purpose than to provide the attacker with personal satisfaction. Most important, it is not the way to help the victims of violence. Can you understand that?

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November 21, 2008

GregS

Gomp it wasnt the violence on TV that affected my generation. And Tori’s generation isn’t affected by the media either. The reason kids are getting more violent is because we don’t discipline them anymore, so they have less self control.

I was jumped as a kid similar to how Tori was jumped, but it wasn’t in a locked room and I was allowed to run away. Whats new about these forms of beatings is that it’s happening with girls now, and these people aren’t allowed to run away, its starting to approach the level of victimization of rape or torture, and it’s being taped, I think thats new also because when that stuff happened to previous generations it was never on tape.

Its one thing to get jumped and you either run away or fight them off, or you get beat up but eventually it ends. This is not the same as being jumped in a locked room while someone tapes it and all the people in the backround are verbally attacking you. It’s more severe now because we let it reach this point. It reached this point because theres no punishment for bullying.

As long as the crime isn’t sexual, and doesn’t involve a man beating on a woman for example, you can be as abusive and cruel as you want to be. What this means is that women can be as cruel as they want to be to other women, and men can be as cruel as they want to be to other men, and there will be no punishment for it besides a slap on the wrist so why not?

And whats worse about this is not just the bullying part, but that these bullies now will see this as an opportunity to make tapes and sell them to their friends or upload them to the internet. Thats what I worry about most, because it’s a horrible trend, and unlike video games and movies these tape star real victims.

If we don’t do anything to stop it, your son or daughter could be the next star on one of these tapes.

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November 21, 2008

GregS

A perfect example is this situation here a rapist was given probation
http://archive.seacoastonline.com/2002news/2_19_s…

And there are many other cases where violent criminals were given probation for life altering crime, and in some cases when they are sentenced it’s for less time than for drug convictions, even murderers sometimes only get a few years in prison.

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November 21, 2008

Electronica

well i had more time to read this page and its sad how ppl here make up stuff and care its not true or doesnt have to be true.

scott/sarto you say kayla/merc told tori you brought it all on yourself honey. not true! it was april!! april says it on camera!!!

and scott britti wasnt hitting tori while she was arguing with kayla. and you dont see brittis knuckles bleeding on the vid.

sarto tori said cara looked like shes feeling bad and later cara said she felt bad. saying she didnt know just how bad it was until she saw the vid doesnt mean she didnt feel bad when it was going on all it means she feels even more bad now.

and sarto merc didnt hire a boy to beat up her ex.

nav you dont know if merc knew theyd beat up tori all you know is tori says merc tried real hard to get her to leave.

gomp and sarto you dont know if britta was real sorry or just faking remorse its ppl like you who make kids think theres no point trying to be good cause everyone hates them and thinks their all bad and nothing but bad and never gives them a chance to be good.

greg spanking is legal in al 50 states i looked it up you cant bamboozle kids so easy when they can google.

amyv you too. you dont know if cara did anything wrong and you dont kow she knew there was going to be any beating at all. and you pretend all that tori says must be true but you know its not she was wrong about april knocking her put its right on the vid.

mercs mom too. she says merc didnt ask tori to help her against the new gf of her ex bf. but she doesnt know the truth she wasnt there. but i learned theres no point arguing with moms about their kids its hopeless.

i dont think any of you really wane know the truth you just wanne hear what you like and nothing else.

and what you do is when something you like may be true you say it is true. and when something you dont like may be untrue you say its untrue. you can prove pretty much anything you like that way.

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November 21, 2008

Electronica

oh and when kaylafirst speaks to tori she defends kelsie her younger sister. kelsie was friend of april and i guess of kayla too. its real stupid to say they were like trying to murder tori. april even said someone get her a phone so tori can leave.

and kayla got mad only cause tori said she has nothing against her and kayla said not true you promised to beat my ass kayla said that twice on the vid and thats why shes angry and also cause she thinks toris lying again. but kayla didnt hit tori even though she says britti tried to make her hit tori. this should make britti feel less sure its ok to hit tori but scott your not going t admit that could be so are you.

anwaya gn all.

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

“…these tapes star real victims.” Yes, it has come to this, and the prospect of the attackers of Victoria getting off with no punishment causes me grief. But what, outside of vigilante justice, is the answer? Outside of unorthodox methods for expressing our outrage, I do not have an answer, and I don’t think the justice system has an answer.

I have been thinking about the concept of the victim as “human sacrifice” raised by Sarto. All the implications of the sacrificial victim as pure and unblemished, of being set aside for this special occasion, of being in some crucial way different are hinted at here. And it leads me to a thought that is sinister and that I arrive at by rather roundabout paths, and it is this: could the attack on Victoria have been triggered by something more primordial than rivalry over boys or trash-talking?

Some of the ugliest examples of violence I know have been those attacks provoked by the perception that the victim was in some sense “different.” That could mean racial or ethnic difference, but there are also less obvious kinds of difference, especially based on diversity of behavior. I don’t know if the disorders attributed to the victim here are true and if they have any bearing here, but for all I know they could. Is it possible that the attackers perceived Victoria as being different in some way, perhaps on a subliminal level?

I know of more than a few cases like this: Someone is the victim of aggression, and when the attacker is asked, what did the victim do to provoke the attack, the response is :”I don’t know, there was just something about that guy I didn’t like, I can’t quite identify it.” This is a murky area, and I wonder if psychology offers any clarification here. For example, do humans have a kind of instinctual mechanism to “weed out the unfit” as we see in many animal species? And if so what are the implications? And, jumping across many steps of logic to get to this conclusion, could the attack on Victoria be classified as a hate crime?

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November 21, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, I like the way you try to look at all points of view and keep an open mind. I try to do that too and I think many of the people here try also. What I said about B.Mayes “faking” remorse, you are right, I don’t really know. Much of what I say is just an attempt to look at some possibility that I haven’t considered before, and try it out and see how it fits with the rest of the picture. So sometimes I seem to contradict myself and take different points of view at different times, but it doesn’t mean I’m making an accusation. It’s just my way of trying to give equal time to every point of view, and see how it matches the facts.
I think it’s sad that some people never admit the possibility that they may be wrong about some things, but some of us try to understand and not judge. Anyway, good night.

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November 22, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I just looked up the link about the rapist, and I remember this story was reported on by Bill O’reilly. O’reilly condemned the judge, Ernest B. Murphy who routinely releases rapists and other violent criminals and tells rape victims to “get over it.” That’s not the end of it. The sickening leftist commentator, Keith Obermann took the side of the judge and criticized O’reilly’s interference in the judicial process.

This is an example of what is wrong. It is not just a handful of perverts like Bill Maher who pollute the airwaves with calls for unrestrained permissiveness. Maher’s views are shared by so-called “respectable” liberals like Obermann, the only difference being that Maher does not bother to conceal his disdain for morality.

Those of us who wish to uphold the values of civilized society must realize that we are fighting a battle of ideology. The permissiveness of the courts toward criminals is rooted in the ideas of “liberals” who see criminals as victims of the arbitrary opposition of an oppressive society. Those influenced by Foucault seem to believe that the concept of “crime” is nothing but a matter of definition, and is artificially constructed by “the system” as a means of social control. Hence, the murderer and rapist becomes transformed into a heroic rebel against the evils of a hegemonic social order. Such ideas are reflected in the thinking of the courts, the media and the educators who teach the next generation. The challenge is, how to combat these tendencies.

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November 22, 2008

GregS

Gomp I don’t think it’s a matter of liberal vs conservative. I personally think the conservatives are just as emotionally motivated as the liberals.

Conservatives have teamed up with liberals to create the environment which helped to produce and encourage the bad behavior. A perfect example is how conservatives always support the drug war, this typical conservative support for the drug war leads to our prisons being filled with non violent criminals who we’d be better off taxing and giving fines to. It was a conservative who put Tommy Chong in prison, this man had no criminal record for his entire life and he was put in prison, wasting the tax payers money and wasting precious prison space.

This war on drugs has fueled the growth of the prison industrial complex, just as the war on terror is being used to fuel the growth of the police state, and none of this helps make us any safer. In fact it’s this paranoia and harassment with dumb laws on non violent individuals that makes our problem worse. So while the liberals are too permissive and I agree on that, I think conservatives tend to waste money on policing strategies that never work and that target non violent offenders.

I think the law and order faction is non partisan, or at least I’m non partisan. I’m for tough penalties for violent crime. I’m for getting rid of the vast majority of non violent victimless crimes.

For people who don’t know what these crimes are, you can find a list of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime_(po…

Some examples of victimless crimes which fill up our prisons and waste space, tax payer dollars,and policing resources, are

1. Prostitution.
2. Drugs (at least pot and non addictive drugs).
3. Laws against pornography.
4. Laws against suicide and Euthanasia.
5. Laws banning certain kinds of sex like sodomy and homosexuality.

These are just 5 examples off the top of my head but theres lots and lots of dumb laws and you can see the rest of them on this site: http://www.dumblaws.com/

A lot of our dumbest laws were generated by conservatives, and these dumb laws act to protect violent criminals to focus on dumb yet non violent criminals. Lets also not forget the whole death penalty thing, while I don’t necessarily like the people who are on death row, conservatives give too much power to the state to the point that the state gets to decide who lives and who dies.

So I don’t think it’s something we can fix just by kicking out all the liberals. I think the only way to fix this country is by kicking out all the irrational emotionalists who don’t follow reason when making their laws. And I’m still seeing this happening today with the Megan Meier case, and while I want justice in cases like these, we need REASONABLE laws which make sense, not laws which are only going to apply to that one situation and then be abused to arrest thousands of people out of context.

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November 22, 2008

GregS

Gomp about the victim being the sacrifice, I think thats the

opposite of how it would work in natural law. In our society, we

have these ideas that pacifism is a good thing, and I think a

lot of our dislike for liberalism comes from the fact that a lot

of liberals are pacifists.

Pacifism comes from Christianity, and there are two types of

Christians. Type 1 is the eye for an eye Christian. Type 2 is

the turn the other cheek Christian. Turn the other cheeks basis

is the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament, which states:

” You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a

tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil

person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him

the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your

tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to

go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks

you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from

you.
&mdashMatthew 5:38-42, NIV”

This is what a lot of Christians believe, and it’s completely

irrational, as it goes against the laws of nature. Evil must be

resisted. To say that evil should not be resisted is like saying

“Don’t resist the devil.”, and this is not something I

personally agree with but this is what I think many people who

set violent criminals free believe in. If someone were to take

turn the other cheek and follow it literally, the best end

result would be slavery, the worst end result would be being

tortured to death.

Continued it says:

” But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to

those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those

who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to

him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him

from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if

anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to

others as you would have them do to you.
&mdashLuke 6:27-31. NIV”

By telling people to love their enemies, this one phrase in the

bible could explain why the judge and others are quick to

forgive violent criminals.The do good to those who hate

you is the perfect excuse to do good deeds for evil people,

and I think this is completely irrational scientifically, it’s a

waste of energy. I also think it’s completely unnatural as it

goes against the laws of nature, but it also explains the human

condition.A lot of humans are taught to appreciate being hurt by

others and to turn the other cheek.

Now, I do think this pacifism has it’s place in a society, but

when it starts to take the dominant role as it does in liberal

society, then they start banning guns because you are supposed

to turn the other cheek when someone is trying to rape you, or

break into your home, or rob you. Often these same liberals

claim we shouldn’t declaw a cat in case it has to fight a dog,

or climb a tree, but gun control and pasifism is okay?

There are other opinion on the bible which advocate spanking

children, which pacifists object to and believe is wrong. Now

these pacifists have turned their attention to video games but

the source of the problem is not the video games, the reason

there are victims in society is because we have become too

tolerant of predators. It’s that simple, we tolerate predators

in our society. I personally do not want to live in a community

that tolerates predators.

Now if we look at what Christ did, Christ died following pacifism. In fact the main theme throughout history is that the pacifists must die for the sins of everyone else. If there is anything at all about sacrifice here it’s that the pacifists tend to be the first humans offered for sacrifice because they put up the least resistence. I don’t think it’s based on any primal instinct, I think people are taught to go against their instincts and nature in order to be pacifists. I do not believe pacifism is natural.And in a state of natural law, for example if we get rid of police and all the liberals have banned guns, all that will happen is that the liberals will be the easiest prey for predators. You’ll have millions of defenseless liberals expecting some aliens, or Christ, or some entity to come and save them and nobody will. Why? Because God helps those who help themselves.

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November 22, 2008

christina garcia

Anyone on here that has a daughter and read the awful things you wrote about her would understand and maybe even say I was easy on you, so once again you fail at your attempt to get to me.

I think Electonica is from MHS, she seems to know alot. And would this be so bad? To have a teen that knows like the teen’s side of things? She could teach all of the adults here a thing or two. She has said some things I don’t agree with, but when you want the truth, you should realize its not perfect and not always on your side. I have never said my kid is perfect, and if airing out all of our dirty laundry will help bring out the complete truth about all these girls and thier associations, and that Mercades did tell her to leave, she made sure she was able to get into the house get her things and exit the house in one piece and no hitting. All I want is the truth! And not the truth that strangers simply put together by the Biblical words of Grady Judd. He is not a God people, he is very bad.

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November 22, 2008

GregS

If anyone here is a Christian and a pacifist, please dont be upset or insulted by what I just said. It’s not an attack on Christianity or pacifism. It’s a moral disagreement on the validity of “turn the other cheek.” Put simply, turn the other cheek does not pass the reason test. It might sound good, feel good, but it doesnt make sense and wont work in practice, and anyone who has ever been bullied knows that turning the other cheek works about as well as “just walk away.”, in my experience walking away just got me hit in the back of the head and bullied harder than not walking away.

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November 22, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I don’t have much time and so many issues to respond to you with this. Since, You yourself are young, I want to try to give you reasons for my opinions. Only Have time to address one. My point about April copper was actually not condemning her. Yes, I still believe she is extremely violent. But, I was tryig to point out that in some cases on this post youth is used to to try to get sympathy for a few ‘elite’
but, 14 years old, the youngest not brought up so much.

Do not mistake this for me thinking that April Cooper absolutely does deserve more punishment than some of the others. Just trying to state what is fair to use for an excuse for ‘some’ just
doesn’t cut it when no problem here hangest the youngest one with severe punishment, youth is hardly mentioned. I am still not sure I am truely making myself clear. But, when I have more time later I would like to discuss more with you. You are the generation that I truely want to advocate for and if anger gets the best of me sometimes that surely is not setting a good example for you.

Gompertz – I thi nk you being associated with Christina comes from her references to her telling you she has additional information for you alone. Implying it is some kind of bomb shell evidence that would clear her daughter. But, I think this association is unfair to you. Just the ridiculous statement ‘subtly implying’ Myself and Navigator are one i the same. I really had to laugh at that one.

You and I will never agree on Christina Garcias motives. Got to go more later.

Garcia – Oops, who is slipping now what the use of filthy language ie. some of your cuss words on a blog free now of these. I believe your true color are starting to show as this is unneccsary to use. It shows a certain lack of class and more mentality of well never mind.

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November 22, 2008

Garland

Greg, I love the bible just as much as everyone else, but just to let you &amp others know, there are so many contradictions about it. For example, what you just put down, telling us to love our enemies, was in the New Testament. The Old Testament, however, tells us to hate them. I can go on &amp on. Check out this full list here, if you want.
http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradiction…

I’m certainly not attacking Christianity either, but I’m just passing it out of the way it is. I’m trying to be an acting christian, but it is indeed hard. I believe that what we should go through is to follow what the ten commandments tells us, &amp to follow Jesus’ greatest commandments, that “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, &amp to love your neighbor as yourself.” That’s in the New Testament as well in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

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November 22, 2008

gompertz

Let me see, where will I start…

Greg, the Bible references are of course relevant because people do guide their lives by the Bible. I am familiar with those quotes, having spent 16 years in Catholic schools, including college, and I don’t want to expand on my personal journey from Christianity to Buddhism, it’s not relevant. However, I would like to say something about the Buddhist concept of compassion. When dictionaries define “compassion” they explain it as “distress caused by another’s suffering” or “sorrow for another’s troubles.” Now, these feelings of sympathy are admirable, but they are not like Buddhist compassion, which only arises at the end of a long process of meditation, leading to detachment and finally a realization of one’s true nature as being identical with that of everyone and everything. That description can of course be improved upon, but I think it needs to be pointed out that Buddhist compassion does not arise out of softness or sentimentality, but from a renunciation of one’s natural emotional responses. So, I just threw that in to show that a spiritual commitment does not imply being “soft on crime.”
Now, I want to refer back to Sarto’s excellent observations on the bullies who have no regard for the feelings of the victim. He states “In dealing with HS bullies now become college students, I was amazed to see that they still did not have any insight into the evil they had done.” It is probably safe to assume that these bullies who went on to college were the ones who never paid a price for their actions. After college, they go on to have careers, and become the “bullies in business suits” I once alluded to. I wonder if the bullies who paid the price by being sentenced for their acts are more susceptible to remorse. For the college bullies, “Somehow, the victim was the real villain.” If they were put in a situation where they were the victims themselves, perhaps they would understand.

Sarto also points out that the girls were sorry only because they were caught. True, we can’t see into their hearts, but it’s a fair assumption. That is probably true. But I don’t think their feelings of regret are any less real, and valid. Some may see their distress as a mark of insincerity, an attempt to gain sympathy. No doubt that enters in, but the discomfiture and pain is not for that reason without value in being a corrective.
I think it is wrong to set up an absolute standard of morality to which all must conform. Such an absolute standard will make us fail to see the value of forms of repentance that are, at best, imperfect. We do need to take a charitable view of human nature and accept the fact that no one is perfect and most are very imperfect indeed. With these violent girls, perhaps all we can hope for is a very imperfect kind of remorse, even if we admit that it is based on nothing more than feeling sorry about being caught. That feeling is something that could be developed into something more genuine under the proper conditions, such as might be provided in a correctional facility. It would mean they would need to undergo many experience that they would rather not undergo, forms of discipline and instruction that they would find most unpleasant. Unfortunately, it seems highly unlikely that this will happen and the chance for true rehabilitation will be lost.
At any rate, I want to stress that I do not expect human beings to be perfect or highly morally correct. People accuse Mercades’mother of ulterior motives, etc. because they set up a standard of perfection that no one could live up to. For instance, if someone wants to write a book, it’s possible they are motivated by the desire to make money. Is that bad? Don’t you think Christina Garcia has the right to make money? Why do people insist on making that sound like a bad thing? I think Christina has the desire to make money because we all have that desire. I am convinced that she also intends to do good things by writing that book, and only the most cynical would deny it. All of us are a mixture of better and worse, and our motives don’t always need to be pure.
Christina, you are right that Electronica adds a welcome perspective here. She is a very intelligent and decent young girl who is trying to get the truth and I think she keeps us all honest. And furthermore, I hope Electronica will also write a book someday.
Amy, always good to hear from you. And I surely don’t confuse you with another person. I know people will get the impression of some “bombshell secret” but they will be disappointed to find there is none. All there is, is a lot of waiting for a decision on the plea bargain which may be a long time in being decided, because lawyers have the uncanny ability to make simple things complicated and prolong the agony. I just want to add that we all have the right to express diverse views and I welcome constructive disagreements and I think Christina does also. It does seem that a few people just like to post comments just to inflict pain, and I hope that changes. We all need to practice toleration and realize that we are all human, not angels.

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November 22, 2008

christina garcia

Yes, I do welcome constructive critism. Have you ever heard the saying ” you get alot further with sugar” ?Really guys, I am here and I listen to people that have common sense and speak to me and about my daughter as if we’re humans and not “animals”.

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November 22, 2008

gompertz

Garland, the Bible is certainly a great source of inspiration. Buddhists consider the Bible a Holy Book, but they don’t think it is the only one. So I think a Buddhist can also be a Christian, but unfortunately most Christians would disagree, because monotheism demands exclusive allegiance. It’s that thing about “I am a jealous God” that gets in the way.
One can find contradictions within the Bible, or one can get hung up on the conflicts between faith and science, like Darwinian evolution. I think whether you call yourself Christian or Buddhist or something else, it is best not to be too worried about these things and go about cultivating a simple adherence to the Good. I personally have no problem with accepting Darwin’s picture of a harsh cruel world ruled by chance and natural selection, because I don’t fee l a need to reconcile spiritual practice with science. They are just two separate things for me. Just because nature is cruel and blind to human and animal suffering, doesn’t mean that we have to be. Becoming spiritual,, living by the Golden Rule means first of all rejecting the way of Nature, and accepting the way of humanity and civilization, and Scriptures can help us do that.

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November 22, 2008

GregS

Gompertz the problem I have with Christianity is not the belief in God, or the belief in Christ, it’s the fact that the bible itself is manipulated by people to hurt or enslave others. In this country the first thing that slaves were allowed to read was the bible. Before there was an America, the first thing peasants and slaves in Europe were allowed to read was the bible. And not the same Bible Christ himself read, because Christ was a Jew and followed the old testament of Jewish scripture.

Romans 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGD14tDxa4

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November 22, 2008

Electronica

amyv ok. i was thinkin you agree with others april should go to adult prison. i dont like that i think she can go to prison for kids. and like not forever just enough to show her how bad it is there and make her think twice next time.

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November 22, 2008

Electronica

and everyone im not from florida ive never been down there at all.

i know a lot cause i googled a lot and read a lot and i watched the vids and listened. like i got the first vid no beeps and no tv ppl talkiong from technocrati and then i knew its not right what cops and tv say. and i read stuff at the local paper and i knew even more is wrong.

and like if you google a lot you can find a lot. i found kelsies myspace and she had pics of her with april ad they were friends. and later kelsie said on topix two of the girls were her friends. so i know its april and i guess its kayla too cause shes her age and she defended her on the second vid. its a bit like being a detective i like it.

gn.

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November 22, 2008

Scott

Gomp, you make an interesting point about how liberal pacifists want people who are pedophiles, rapists and drug dealers to be given numerous chances to make it in society. I say no. States like Vermont are known for catering to serious felons especially pedophiles. And as liberal a direction as America is now moving in the coming years could be very good for pedophiles, rapists and drug dealers to get second, third and fourth chances and have laws loosened for them. And that is very sad. By the way Gomp you hit the nail on the head with criminal sympathizers Bill Maher and Keith Olberman. Why anyone would want violent predators to be protected by the law and given second chances and more is beyond me. And someone’s political beliefs should have nothing to do with it. No one should want pedophiles or rapists on the street doing their life ruining damage. Especially if they are repeat offenders which most of them are.

Amy, I am sure April Cooper will take a plea deal if it’s decent instead of going to trial. A plea for Cooper might even mean no jail time at all. And April is not charged with felony kidnapping like Mercades, Brittini and Brittany are so April accepting a plea deal is likely.

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November 22, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I think liberals are people who believe that human beings are fundamentally good by nature, and that they become corrupted because of society. Therefore, the criminal is just a good person who became an offender because he was victimized by the evils of society. The greater criminal is more to be pitied because he is the greater victim of “the system.” This kind of reasoning is prevalent in our court system and in our schools, and criminals use these ideas to justify blaming everyone but themselves for their wrongdoing.

My own belief is that people are weak and corrupt because they are part of nature, and nature is amoral. We become moral through education and discipline. By accepting civilized values we move away from the state of nature. I’ve said this before, if you want to see what the “state of Nature” looks like, just take another look at the video of Victoria being beaten. That is what human beings act like in a state of nature, with no discipline and guided by violent passions. I think all good people will agree that civilization is better than the state of nature.

Greg, it is not only Christianity that has been used as an instrument of control. Buddhism has also had dark periods in its history. For instance, the office of Dalai Lama was started by the Mongols, and the Dalai Lama’s sect, the Gelugpa or Yellowhats, achived victory over rival sects with the help of Mongol armies.Chinese and Southeast Asian history also have episodes of religious persecution. In Wikipedia articles I find only the most oblique references to these things, and American Buddhists generally don’t want to hear about it. But they happened and one must come to terms with the reality that even peaceful Buddhists have been guilty of violence. By acknowledging that Buddhists have also been imperfect I am better able to see the human side of all spiritual systems and be more tolerant of them all.

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November 23, 2008

Sarto

Gom…your little essay was thought provoking. Well done. Amy, we have this dread of condemning people. You hurry to assure us you don’t condemn April. I do. Maybe not to jail, or hell, but I condemn what she did and I condemn her rotten attitude and I hope that she finally steps back from what she did far enough to get some perspective and realize that, for a long terrible time, she was nothing short of a monster. Then I hope she feels shame and guilt. Without those two emotions, she is going to do a lot more that she should be condemned for.

I think that BH is a psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain and would do it again next time she thinks she can get away with it. She deserves condemnation to a prison cell, where society can be protected for a little while from her aberrant personality.

Does Mercades deserve condemnation? She seems to lack the ability to step back and take a look at herself. There are some things about Mercades that I admire. For instance, her Myspace page shows real talent…if poor taste. I hope she saved that page so she can look at it one day in the future and imagine what people already appalled by the beating thought when they saw it. There were comments about it all over the Internet: Real computer skills…and the taste of a hillbilly in his outhouse. This is something Mercades is not going to show to her children. And if she really did author that skillful “I’m sorry” page, I hope she comes to realize how futile it was in the face of all she had been involved in. She needs some life skills and a one hundred eighty degree attitude turn around. But hang onto those computer skills. You have a gift.

Electronica’s observations caused me to go back and look at the sickening video that marked the beginning of all the beatings. Electronic was right…it was April who told Victoria “you brought this on yourself.” But she was also wrong. In the documentation found in the Ledger, it says that Mercades did hire a boy, a relative of the girl the boy was dating, offering him fifty dollars, forty dollars down, then more when he finished the job. He took the money but said he didn’t really plan to do anything.

I suggest you study that miserable tape because it gives you a long sad look at the bullying pattern which happens in high schools every day. Both April and BH seem skilled at it. When the tape starts rolling, April is in the middle of her act, challenging Victoria to say to her face things she apparently said online and in text messages. Victoria replies in an apologetic way, saying she was drunk and stupid then, but she had grown up since then. Sounds like an apology to me. But April doesn’t want apologies. She wants to beat Victoria silly. Victoria suddenly sees the girl with the camera and the beating starts a second later. Long endless seconds, forty blows, Victoria pleads for the beating to stop. B Mayes, operating the camera, says “Oh, yea, baby…oh yeah!” I wonder who is the worst monster: April, who does the beating, or B Mayes, who runs the camera and has the orgasm.

Victoria, totally stunned, gets up from the bed where April had pinned her and beaten her, and immediately asks Mercades for a phone, while April shouts, “Go!”. Victoria reminds Mercades that she is her friend. Mercades says something like, “Didn’t I tell you not to come…didn’t I? Didn’t I? She seems to be standing by the door, but because the picture is so dark, it is hard to tell. Victoria asks for a phone again. April enters and says “You brought this on yourself, honey….” and again tells her to leave. Victoria asks again for a telephone, says she is sorry she came, says she wants to leave.

The picture is dark. But in the background you get glimpses of the shiny lock on the door.

At this point, BH enters the scene and the bullying pattern begins again, this time by a real expert. Victoria is pleading with Mercades, and from the direction V is facing, M seems to be by the door. BH gets between Victoria and Mercades, “defending” her good friend. She tells Victoria to quit yelling at Mercedes. There are a flurry of other remarks about who doesn’t like who. Victoria still confused by the forty blows she has received, argues in her defense. There are people around that lock, and it is hard to see who is there. But BH is confronting Victoriaj. Does she get close enough to the door to lock it? Kayla, in her blue shirt, enters the scene and leaves. B. Mayes is on the camera. That leaves Mercades and April. Who locked the door?

When the light comes on, everybody is facing in a different direction. BH continues the bullying pattern, now claiming that Victoria is dissing her. Victoria pleads again for the chance to leave. Now there are accusations about her sex life. This is the way bullies do it: Claim to be defending someone supposedly attacked by the victim, claim to be attacked yourself, throw accusations and insults, build up a case that the victim deserves whatever is about to happen, build up your rage to that wonderful moment when you can start hurting someone without remorse or second thoughts. Kayla chips in…April disappears from the picture, and B. Mayes keeps filming.

In the meantime, it is interesting to watch Mercades. Her friend has just been severely beaten…you know, the one whose photo was still up on Mercades’ Myspace, listed as one of her very best friends. Surely she has heard blow after blow, and Victoria’s cries. But she won’t hand over a phone. All she does it shout, “Didn’t I tell you to leave?” Even though Victoria pleads again and again, she won’t give a phone or ask anybody else to give a phone.

Instead, she sits on the couch to watch developments. At first she seems interested. Then, she yawns. She continues to watch BH play the bully’s game, building up for the beating. She watches as Victoria defends herself against one accusation and insult after another. Mercades shifts weight with a half smile on her face and grabs a pillow so she can be more comfortable. Props her bare feet up on a footstool. Watches the shouting match some interest. Props up her head with her hand, taking it all in. Scratches her chin…picks her nose…. strokes at her chin. Doesn’t offer a phone or ask anyone else for to hand over a phone. What is she waiting for?

Suddenly, in the next video, we know. What we see is Victoria lying on a couch (with no later memory of how she got there), being beaten around the face by BH. As she gets up BH throws a sucker punch, hurries to block the door, crowds Victoria into a corner so she can beat her some more. From her comfortable spot on the couch, Mercades finally says something: “Don’t hit the shelf!”

Christina, no matter how hard you make your argument about Mercades good intentions, I cannot interpret her words in any other way: She is saying to the girl who was with her when she tried to run her former boyfriend off the road…the girlfriend who had just been “defending” her from Victoria’s shouts, “Be careful, but you have my permission to keep on pounding.” With Poppa’s ashes suddenly in danger to change Mercades whole perspective on what was happening and offer a reality check, she could have said, “OK! OK! enough is enough.” But the beating and the mocking go on and on until one thousand eight hundred seconds from the time the whole nightmare began, suddenly it is time to go get Grandma.

A mob. Everybody but Cara a remorseless bully. A half hour of pain and horror. Victoria was correct when she thought they were going to kill her. She had a concussion and all that goes with it, but the beating didn’t stop. If the concussion had led to a blood clot, she would have died. Mercades saw how terrible the beating had been and, when she threatened even worse if Victoria went to the cops, it was surely a threat on her very life.

Again, I go through all of this because I want to remember that, in the middle of Christina’s rage at the sheriff, in the middle of all the so-called support and all the philosophizing and theologizing, something terrible happened between girls who had been lovable little children and loving friends. Their Facebook pictures are full of smiles and full of hope. B. Mayes photo-bucket shows her surrounded by pleasant, attractive young women. (Although, when we see April’s pictures, there is something there behind her eyes, in comparison to B. Mayes’ pleasant looks.) But April does smile in her dark way. BH looks like that tough girl in every school. But still, basically the girls’ Facebook pages are a celebration of youth and life and would lead you to believe they are all good kids. Kids I have taught, kids I would love if I was their dad or uncle.

But as this story emerges, they turn out to be troubled kids, all of them–including Victoria–who know how to inflict pain and violence. Kids who got all caught up in torture and atrocity. So how did it come to this? What in the world has happened to bring us this glimpse of teenage hell?

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Scott, while I agree with you that pedophiles and rapists are bad people, I disagree with you on drug dealers. Pedophiles abuse children and are violent. Rapists torture people and are violent. If it’s a violent crime I agree we should absolutely be tough on it.

Drug dealers aren’t violent so I dont consider them to be bad people. I consider them desperate, poor, and a lot of drug dealers are good people who simply have no other way to make quick money. I don’t see drug dealers as being morally any worse than stock brokers, or pharmacists.

I agree with you that we should target violent predators, but I we should focus primarily on violent predators and drug dealers are nothing more than business men to me. If you don’t want drugs, you don’t have to buy them, they aren’t going to rape you, they aren’t molesting little boys or girls, and they aren’t murdering anyone. They are no worse than the person who works for duncan donuts or McDonalds.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Sarto you have a gift for psycho analysis, I think your take on what was going on is more accurate than mine. Perhaps you are right, maybe these bullies are just looking for excuses to be violent and creating situations out of nothing. It’s kinda like if you just want to see what it feels like to lock someone in a room and beat them up, you still need an excuse to justify it. In this context the girl who was going “oh yeah baby” is actually the most scary of the bunch, if its true that she was orgasming while it was happening. Thank God/Allah that BH doesn’t seem like a sadist, otherwise she might have taken things further due to encouragement of the mob.

I think this situation is something which can be studied for years, I think people could write their thesis on it. I probably would have if I were a psychologist by I’m not.

And one thing I see in your analysis is that Mercades was either scared of these girls, or she didn’t give a damn about Victoria, and I cannot determine which it is. But by her behavior I don’t reach the conclusion that she’s as bad as the others and probably was either intimidated by what she was in April and Hardcastle thinking they could do they could do that to her, or she just didn’t care about Victoria at all, which would be extremely bad on her rep because it would diminish he worth as a friend.

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November 23, 2008

Amyv

Greg S – Wow. So many posts are flying here I can hardly keep up here. In order to make in informed reply I am finding myself having to reread post from a couple week here.

You stated so well what I have felt all along. It was so much more acceptable for same sexes to fight in future generation. Now, with the girls of this generation becomiing even more violen than the males people had to finally take notice.

Without trying to say this is comparable to rape, it does have some of the elements. Both of these crimes involve physical abuse ,both leave the victim no chance to escape, and both are meant to leave the victims humiiliated.

Victorias statement “what did I do to deserve” is so telling. It shows how a victim, who did absolutely nothing to deserve this questions themselves. This show the psycological damage inflicted on someone in a crime such as this. Their self esteem has been taken away from them. However, that does not meant I think she can not gain in back. As we have seen many peoples stories of crimes with these certain aspects rise above them and become stronger.

But, I do appreciate you putting into words some of these points that I have felt.

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November 23, 2008

gompertz

Sarto, once again you give me the benefit of learning from your analysis. Again I look at the evidence, this time aided by your powerful description of events, and I am reminded of what a truly horrible thing transpired. It has been a while since I looked at the video, and I haven’t read the transcript of the verbal exchange in months. Nor have I bothered to check the slow-motion play-by-play of April’s flurry of punches, which someone thoughtfully provided with a commentary. This does not mean that I am unaware of the horror that took place, or of the horrors that happen all around us. My family lived through WWII and I had relatives who fought on both sides. I remember my mother telling me as a boy how she saw the flames rising in the night sky over the city of Dresden as it was being firebombed, 200 miles away. I try to imagine what kind of scenes you would see if you were there, on the ground, where people were being burned alive. And sometimes I ask this unspeakable question:what if, when Shanda Sharer was being tortured to death in a field in rural Indiana in 1992, those monsters had recorded her agony on videotape?
I feel that your commitment to remind us of the hellish nature of these things is real, and I get the easy sarcasm of your description of Mercades. Still, I am a rather obtuse fellow, and the nature of this form of communication does not allow me the non-verbal cues like facial expression or tone of voice to do full justice to your meaning. So I really don’t know how to take your reference to “philosophizing and theologizing”. You ask how this hellish situation has come about. My own perspective is that the philosophizing may provide a clue.
You say their pictures are a “celebration of youth” and they seem like the kind of good kids you might have known and loved. And then you find that they are troubled. I wonder if the distinction between good and troubled is really there. I think all are troubled and it only requires the proper inducement to turn good kids into monsters. In my idyllic 1950’s world, where kids never talked back to their elders, it was rather routine for these good kids to torture small animals. I was always horrified by this and wondered what it was like to be tortured. My own European perspective reminds me of the evil that lurks behind the mask of civilization and I see that America is beginning to see it now. Not that stormtroopers parade about, rounding up victims for the camps. But as you remind us, the violence of the young, and their capacity for cruelty are reminiscent of those times, and the mentality of the “good” people who did not oppose that descent into darkness is not confined to Europeans of another generation.
You say you condemn April and Brittany, and you sneer at the attempt to exonerate Mercades. Fair enough. Perhaps that attempt is worthy of a sneer. My own perspective, as one who has studied the holocaust that was brought about by good people, some of whom were close to me, is that it is worth a try to get beyond the condemnation. I do not make excuses for anyone, including Mercades, but really, what is the point of saying we condemn them? You may dismiss the philosophizing useless, but you do leave us with the question, how did it come to this? Do you have any answers? In his novel, “The Elementary Particles” Michel Houellebecq suggests that the problem resides in the molecular structure of the animal organism, and we must wait for some genius to find a way to radically transform that structure and create a new life form to succeed us. If that is so, I suppose those of us who are not so gifted have no recourse but to keep replaying that video and reminding ourselves that, yes, things are very bad indeed and the little ladies are really horrible monsters who need to be condemned. If Houellebecq is right, then surely I am wasting my time studying the holocaust and triyng to find solutions to the problem of human depravity in spirituality and philosophy. But I have yet to hear a better answer.
Of course you know there are people who watch nature programs featuring lions eating their prey alive and find it “cool.” I find it horrifying, and I do not have to watch nature programs again and again to add my sense of indignation at nature’s cruelty. I also know that the beating suffered by Victoria was horrible and to sit there and watch it taking place was very wrong. We all know it, and we now know that the perpetrators will probably never be brought to the kind of justice that might induce them to see that it was horrible. And if they do not see it, there will be more victims. Perhaps we could all write letters to the prosecutors expressing our disapproval of offering plea deals, especially after all the bluster about serious charges with severe penalties. Surely that would be useful, rather than just philosophizing. And of course we all know that attacking the sheriff is just a ploy, right? And the talk about corruption, and collusion between defense teams and prosecutors, just a myth of course, created by people with hidden agendas. Yes, let us rather hang our heads in shame and stand paralyzed before the hopelessness of it all, and maybe some deity or Houellebecq’s brilliant hero will redeem us. Meanwhile I will continue to exercise my feeble intellectual powers to the best of my ability and look for solutions that go beyond mere condemnation.

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November 23, 2008

gompertz

Greg, in your reply to Scott, you said you don’t consider drug dealers as bad people. I agree that the low-level dealers are usually pleasant enough, and just trying to make a living without offending anyone. Also, sending people to prison for dealing or smoking marijuana is insane. I do wonder, though, whether you think the drug kingpins are so harmless. It is hard to imagine a high-level drug lord who is not involved in an assortment of other activities, some of which are violent, because every drug lord is involved in competition with others who are in fact violent. Now, where those other activities involve the exploitation of women and children for sex, I think the line between “violent” and “non-violent” gets hazy. For example, a drug dealer may tell himself that he only wants to provide a service, but if he extends his activities into the areas of other more powerful dealers, he must know that he will be forced to resort to various forms of coercion to compete, whether through entering into turf wars or through “diversifying” into things like prostitution. And really, the business of prostitution does involve the coercion of women, not in theory, but as a practical matter. I think that any drug dealer is smart enough to understand the interconnectedness of these activities and knows what is at stake when he enters into this kind of business. It’s a little like getting drunk and driving. You may not intend to run someone over when you blacked out behind the wheel, but the court may still hold you liable because you should have known better.

A more general concern is this. I have heard libertarians say they want to legalize all drugs. But there are many kinds of drugs, and their effects are varied. Surely the difference in the effects of wine and tequila are less than the difference between marijuana and crack cocaine. Is this something that society should take into account, or should all restrictions be dropped on drug use?

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Gomp the reason situations like the holocaust and other bad situatios happen is precisely because of the pacifist turn the other cheek attitude.

When you have a binary society with polar extremes, where good people refuse to confront evil because they want to die with a clean soul, then it’s really not going to be hard for a charismatic Hitler type person to arise and simply take over. If everyone is taught to turn the other cheek, then the one group of people who’s religion is not about turning the other cheek will usually take control.

If we look at the behavior of the jews and others of that time, they trusted their government, they had faith in their fellow human beings, they seemed to have no concept of psychopaths or of evil, and what scares me is it’s remarkably similar to the attitudes I see in liberals in this country. They think it can’t happen here, they don’t think anyone could be capable of such cruelty, they think everyone has remorse, empathy and compassion and that everyone is as good of a person as them. They believe all human lives are equal.

Of course you and I might know otherwise but this is how people still think to this day, and if their priest and pastor, or their boss told them to vote their rights away, or disempower themselves, they’ll do it. Look at the trend, liberals and conservatives for the most part are working as a team to reduce freedom and put power in fewer and fewer hands, it’s not even rational and the consequence of this is an eventual Hitler style government. How long will it take before a violent psychopath takes control of this country? It happens in every other country so why not here? We are among the most docile and permissive countries on earth.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Gomp about the drug dealing and sex crimes, a sex crime such as rape is violent by nature and requires an exceptionally violent person who also lacks empathy. I’m not including date rape because while that is a form of rape is just as bad, it’s harder to prove that.

Gomp about the drug kingpins, most of them aren’t in America to begin with. I think we should use our federal government to go after foreign drug dealers, as in dealers who are connected to foreign governments. We should use our CIA and FBI to focus on drug dealers connected to terrorism and places like Afgnastan and Cuba, not focus on inner city street dealers who for the most part are loyal Americans who just happen to sell drugs. During world war II the US gov worked with the Italian Mafia to fight the Nazi’s. The Mafia at the time had become powerful because alcohol was made illegal so they were bootlegging. I honestly don’t see how todays urban street dealers are any different from yesterdays, the only difference is the war on drugs and focus on our own drug dealers instead of on terrorists or foreign dealers. It used to not be this way, and it probably shouldn’t be this way because we are destroying our own country doing this. I’m convinced the war on drugs is bad for America and is not serving Americans interests.

I think the violence you see from the higher level dealers has more to do with the involvement of foreign governments supplying them the weapons and the man power through their armies. I don’t think this sorta violence is exclusive to drug dealing, try selling oil and you’ll have the same sorta violent competition from foreign competitors and their governments. You have some people who are bankers and you have oil tycoons who hire mercenaries and private armies and intelligence agencies and somehow thats acceptable? I see no difference morally between an oil salesman and a drug dealer.

I don’t think any drugs should be restricted for the same reason don’t ban the sale of junk food to children. I think giving children junk food in school is equally as evil and damaging as selling drugs to children. We allow corporations to exploit children yet the drug dealer cannot? Why?

I do think drug sales should be regulated, children shouldn’t be able to buy drugs, but adults should be able to buy anything they want. If you can give yourself a heart attack you should be able die of an overdose,and a lot of us would prefer death by overdose than death by heart disease or cancer.

The end result will probably be the same, we will all be on drugs eventually because we will all be labeled sick by our doctors and put on drugs. Why not just give our doctor the power to prescribe Marijuana?

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November 23, 2008

christina garcia

wow, this post really is off topic lol…its like this has become a place for people opening up about thier experiences, history, and ideas. How beautiful : )

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November 23, 2008

gompertz

Christina, we’re trying to let people know that there is more going on than anger and negative criticism. Honey is better than the other stuff and sometimes it helps to step back and look at different perspectives. But it all relates back to the real topic, right, guys?

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November 23, 2008

Garland

Right you are, gompertz. I agree with what you’re saying.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

The reason we communicate in this way is because, at least myself and probably some of the others here are exclusively focused on the #1 problem –&gt “Violence”, and in this trial its violence against a teenage girl. It has reached a point where ordinary gentlemen who usually protect women and children from behind the scenes have decided to comment on this case.

The history of the individuals involved probably has a lot to do with where these ideas are generated. A common theme we see on this site among the people who demand harsh punishment for the bullies is that most of them have been bullied before. And a common theme among the people who say we shouldn’t throw the book at Mercades has to do with the fact that a lot of us have been in Mercades situation before, where we had a bunch of friends who were increasing growing more cruel and more violent. Very few people who respect, or care about defending women and children, are going to be taking the side of Ms. Hardcastle.

The angle of the supporters of Hardcastle is that while Hardcastle is bad, Tori is just as bad. Like we are supposed to judge the individuals and not the behavior. And of course you have people who are pro bully because they are bullies themselves. I’ve seen postings where people said Victoria deserved it. Bill Maher fits into this category, and they’ll follow that up with “let kids be kids”, as if being a kid is about being a wild bully. Hardcastle wasn’t even a kid. Victoria was 16-17 when this happen, thats not a kid. None of these people are kids, sure they are young adults but thats as far as I can go.

Amy the reason I compared the assault to rape is because the damage is similar. It’s permanent and life changing. Tori may go on to heal from this, but what I don’t want to see is this become a trend, because if we slap people on the wrist, human nature dictates that if humans can be cruel and get away with it, they will.

Christina, I’ve been extremely focused since before this trial. I’ve isolated the source of the behavior down to a certain mentality combined with the lack of deterrent. I’ve also determined that if we allow bullying to go on in child hood, these people become adults. Some of these boys who might have been bullied, will learn to become violent and might be conditioned into becoming bullies themselves. How does this affect the domestic violence rate against women? It’s very similar to how a lot of pedophiles who go on to molest children claim they were molested themselves and the person who did that to them was allowed to get away with it. When people are allowed to get away with violence against defenseless or smaller/physically weaker individuals, it changes both individuals involved, the bully who gets away with it learns to be more skillful at doing it the next time, and the victims brain is literally changed, often in a way which makes them more likely to be violent themselves toward people smaller than them.

This problem affects all humans, of all nationalities and religions. It can manifest in the form of domestic violence, it can manifest in a boss who is a total jerk, it’s little stuff in peoples childhood which influences their behavior for their whole life, and I don’t think people are considering that the consequences of allowing violence in childhood results in the violence we see later.

It doesn’t make sense how a Bill Maher liberal can want to ban video games and movies showing blood and violence, but when kids are actually violent its just kids being kids. I think it’s one thing if two kids agree to spar or play fight, or even fight 1 on 1, I think reasonable people know the difference.

I don’t have a kid, I don’t have a daughter, but some of you people do. This is actually your issue because the purpose behind being tough on violent criminals is to protect your daughters, whether it be Mercades or Victoria.

And yeah not to be gender biased, young boys shouldn’t be trained to kill each other, because then later on of course the women complain about how these guys aren’t emotionally available, or how these guys are jerks, so in conclusion actions have consequences and our actions have to act to control the outcome rather than just reacting.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

And Christina I’m surprised you actually were brave enough to post here considering some of the comments and types of discussion we were having.

Was that your daughter who posted here that one time under the name Mercades?

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November 23, 2008

Scott

Well said Gomp about liberal’s dangerous views on criminals.

Sarto, it was Kayla who said to Tori “you brought in on yourself honey”. But you are right that Brittany Mayes getting off on Tori being injured was almost disturbing as April punching Tori an Olympic and world record setting 40 times in 12 seconds. But these girls were looking forward to hurting Tori and seeing her get hurt and that cannot be denied. Especially since Tori’s latest deposition which included emails from Mayes and Cooper saying they were going to get Tori for her calling the cops while being threatened while locked in a car to protect herslf. Tori rightfully felt threatened by a mob of softball girls meant on getting Tori and she called the police which in turn got some of April and Brittany’s friends arrested for underage drinking. That’s part of the reason these girls were mad at Tori.

Greg, you make a good point about drug dealers. But we still disagree about them in terms of them being decent people or not. I don’t.

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November 23, 2008

Electronica

scott they did charge april with kidnaping! and it was april not kayla who called tori honey you can see her say it on the vid!!

theres been more wrong stuff scott your like a walking talking breathing encyclopeedia of misinformation ive seen other posts from you half the time you dnt know what yur talking about but it never stops you at all does it.

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November 23, 2008

Electronica

oh and greg prohibition was over long before wwii i didnt even have to wiki that we learn somthing in school you know.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Scott Mayes and Cooper said that they were going to get her for calling the cops? We need more details on that, where did you see that?

And I dont think drug dealers are morally any worse than people who sell coffee at Starbucks or fast food to children and the elderly at Mc Donalds. Only drug dealing pays a lot more money of course.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

Electronica Prohibtion was in the 1920s, it is the reason why the Italian Mafia came to power, it’s also the source of powerful for a lot of elite families at the time. These families kept the money, and years later in the 1930s and 1940s the US gov started working with these families that built themselves up on bootlegging.

I used the mafia example to prove that drug dealers aren’t always bad people, in fact it was just how people made money and came into power back then and not much has changed today. There aren’t many ways for good people to make a lot of money and become powerful without selling drugs, it doesn’t matter if you are in the mafia back then or today.

So I think people sold drugs because they were desperate, immigrants were into bootlegging because that was the only way they could survive. Maybe they got tired of living in ghettos and wanted to move up in life. I can’t blame them for this.

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November 23, 2008

GregS

The Kennedy family is a perfect example. Widely considered to be a good family, they made their fortune bootlegging. Had the Kennedy family tried to get ahead in today’s America they’d have be put in prison and possibly wiped out due to the war on drugs.

The reason why people sell drugs has more to do with environment. I don’t think drug dealers would choose to make their money selling drugs if they could make the same money selling something else, but what else is there?

While some people might embrace a return to the gilded age, the majority of people who are living bad are desperate to get out of that life and will drug deal to get rich. And it’s reasonable, rational and ethical for them to do it.

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November 23, 2008

Electronica

amyv girls dont fight more than boys!

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November 23, 2008

Electronica

sarto merc didnt hire the boy to beat up hex ex she hired him to break up her ex with his new gf the boys cousin. merc was still in love with her ex thats so plain obvious.

and sarto yu pick and chose what you like and ignore what doesnt fit. whys someone yelling at britti to let tori ran away? and sounds like merc. and merc said dont ht the glass maybe it wasnt the ashes maybe she was just worried someone can get real hurt. and why did she and kayla try so hard to make tori leave in the first place if they were so eager to see her beat up? and why did they refuse to lie when april told them top lie? ans why did they turn over the vid?

its always back to what i say most ppl are part good part bad and you dont know those girls are all bad but you just make it look that way and pretend you know what they were thinkin but its not as simple as you try to make it look.

oh and it was britti who closed the door.

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November 23, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, I don’t think Mercades is a bad person, and she certainly is not a thug. I think she was afraid of the others and that’s why she didn’t help. Sometimes good people do bad things and sometimes good people don’t stop bad people from doing bad things. And then the good people get blamed more for not stopping the bad people than the bad people get blamed for perpetrating their bad deeds. It happens all the time and it is happening here too. I have a feeling that Mercades is very sorry that her friend suffered and she didn’t stop it.
Anyway the lesson we can learn is to always choose who we associate with and if we keep company with violent people sooner or later they will try to drag us into their violent activities. I also think Mercades can turn things around and learn from her mistake and become a better person after this.

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November 23, 2008

Electronica

gomp you dnt understand im saying none of the girls is all bad at least you dont know shes all bad. not just merc or kayla or cara but april and even britti too.

and i dont think its that she was so afraid of the otrher girls i mean why would she and kayla later refuse to lie with them and why did she let kayla give the vid to her nana?

its not so simple at all its like you judge ppl after you see what happened but they didnt know what will happen merc didnt know the beating will be so bad. it gets real bad only at the end of the vid and thats when i think mec yells at britti but britti ignores her you know.

you want things black and white but its not so simple. like most of the time it was argue argue argue argue hit hit argue argue argue bam bam argue argue argue hit hit argue argue argue. you know what i mean? the beatings over before you can think much how to stop it and dont make enmies of your freinds just to defend a girl who was a bad friend and didnt take you with her to parties or whatever. so you dont wanne take her side and you hear all this bad stuff about her too from your other friends and other ppl too. and before you can think its back to arguing and tori argues a lot too and desnt look hurt. girls are more into drama than fighting so you dont underastand when your there and your a girl its mostly drama not violence to you. so all im saying its not that simple and they all did wrong and didnt do right but it doesnt mean their all all bad.

gn.

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November 23, 2008

AmyV

Garcia –

You are already bashing the victim. So, making the mute point that some people are trying to trick you into doing this is a little too late. You are the one that has slipped up on many occasions. And, what a curious choice of words. If you were truly concerned about the victim you would not even mention the possibility of slipping up as that should not be a problem for you.

No wonder you are exhausted. You have not even gotten the first case out of the way. And, are already attacking the victim for the next trial. Wow, now he’s in the KKK. Where does it end? Save your time and energy from making book deals and blogging and concentrate on getting your daughter through the tough times ahead.

As always my prayers are with the only victim in this case Victoria and her family.

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November 24, 2008

GregS

I’m not sure whether or not Mercades is a good person, but on the spectrum of good and evil I’m sure shes not evil. She actually has a chance to be a productive member of society, but I’ll not go so far as to call her a good person. That title has to be earned.

Electronica I understand that you can empathize and put yourself in the place of these girls. And this might work for some of these girls but what about Hardcastle? Can you explain her complete remorselessness? Her complete lack of empathy?

She knew she was damaging the victim, causing the victim a lot of pain, and she just didn’t are. If you look at her eyes when she attacking the Victim she has the look of a predator. I’m not even sure she would have stopped if those other girls weren’t there. Can we agree that shes a bad person?

And after the beating she has shown no regret, no remorse, no empaty, even now it seems like her lawyers are still attacking Victoria.

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November 24, 2008

Scott

Greg, there was a recent article that disclosed Tori’s latest deposition stated that April Cooper and Brittany Mayes emailed her saying they were going to get her. If Tori has these emails and the authorites have seen them then that’s powerful proof and evidence that they were out to get Tori no matter what. And they did.

Electronica, you are the ultimate exscuxe maker for these girls. I think they deseve fair punishments but nothing to severe. I actually think April should only be charged with assault and battery on Tori and false imprisonment of Tori and not felony kidnapping. I’ve been consistent about this all along. April clearly assaulted Tori on video on 2 different occasions and the second time she stopped Tori from making it to and out the front door with another rapid fire beating of punches and slaps to Tori’s back, neck, shoulders and chest. But atleast April was nice enough to not hit Tori in the face that time. 🙂 ) Maybe she thought Tori was already hit enough in the face and didn’t want to hit her there again.

Everything I posted in this post is fact not fiction. There is no misinformation here Electronica dear. It’s all scene on video.

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November 24, 2008

Sarto

I have been doing a lot of thinking about what I want to say.

First, to Christina. You have the passion and anger to write a book, but do you have the discipline? Most people don’t. As I read your blog comments itl is obvious to this lifelong writer that you also do not have the skills. So, some suggestions. The best thing you could do is sign up for a writing class at your local community college and make the book your main project. You will then have the help of a professor. If he/she knows what you want to do, he could help you hone your writing and disciplinary skills, so that you can get your point across in a compelling and interesting way. He would help you do a publishable job.

Second, you might reconsider the idea of writing a book at all. A book is a huge project that has to be organized and structured in a massive way. Books take months, even years, and the interest in this whole thing will recede when it is all worked out by the courts and everybody is in jail or on community service or whatever.

It might be better to write a magazine article, which would probably get more readers, anyway. Again, you need to develop writer’s skills, or have someone help you write the article. Again, a class in a community college could help direct your efforts.

Whatever you do, start by reading magazines by writers and for writers, which would help you get off in the best direction. The Writers Market, a huge volume published every year, is full of suggestions. You could find it at your local library. There are also other books which you need to read about how to write for publication.

Will publishers come to you desperate to buy your effort? Maybe. Most writers’ best efforts are never published unless they have managed to make a name for themselves. The whole drama unfolding is ineresting, but how long will that interest last? Publishers are only interested in making money, not in the justice of your cause. The further we are from this story, the less publishers will be interested.

If you were writing fiction, you would have to finish the whole thing and then shop around for someone to publish it. Non-fiction is different. You write a chapter and explain your plan and look for someone to support your effort. But you still have to look around. Simply writing a book fueled by your outrage but expressed through your limited literary abilities might help you deal with some of your feelings, but I doubt if anybody else will have the chance to read it. This project involves education and planning, and the best thing you could do is start with your local community college.

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November 24, 2008

Sarto

I decided to do this thing in two parts. I ask myself, what If I were going to write a book on this whole sad affair? Then I would be trying to get a handle on the story and all its parts, on the people involved, their stories and their motives. I would need to have a clear idea what happened, what people thought happened, and what all the major players did. How did they get there? How did they react to what happened? How did it all turn out? The bloggers with their different agendas and points of view would also be part of the tale. Much of that still remains to be told.

I have followed this blog, which is heavy into philsophy and theology, and another blog called Topix, which has a larger participation and seems more interested in how all of this is unfolding. Strangers have chipped in, along with enemies of Tori, family, and friends. Some of bloggers seem to be writing in both blogs.

The first person I look at is Tori. How in the world did she get in this mess? I don’t believe there are very many accidents. The whole drama of life often consists in this: We create our own moment with destiny, even when we don’t realize we are setting ourselves up.

Tori is clearly deeply troubled. Some people who know her even name the mental illness with which she has been diagnosed. A lot of it seems to go back to her absent mother. But she clearly has huge problems with the adults in her life. As one blogger put it, she has actually lived as an adult for much of her recent life, but without the judgment and perspective only a real adult can have.

Unable to accept the discipline demanded by what seem to be reasonable parents, she has lived the life of a runaway. I have seen this in some of the teens with whom I work. They leave home, not to stay on the streets, but to stay with friends who take them and get their parents to collaborate. And the parents are collaborators. Mercades was a collaborator and so was her grandmother. They did not contact Tori’s parents to learn if the sad story Tori was telling was true. Tori is brought home by the police, only to run away again. This lack of grounding in her own home is one of the main things that set Tori up as the perfect victim: troubled, rootless, borderline mentally ill.

When the roof began to fall in, she had no place to go. For whatever reason, she had decided she could not just run through the door and go home. She needed a phone so she could try to find somewhere else to land. Even when she was finally released by her torturers, she did not call her family, but a friend, who brought her home, but not to Tori’s mother. To her mother.

Apparently this pattern is continuing. Even though Tori said that the only ones you can really trust is your family, she is not staying with a family. She is depending on people to take her in. Some of the peoplel who have taken her in have seen a wonderful cooperative side to Tori. But others have seen another side. She recently spent a month with a young woman and her mother and the mother is so upset she says she will testtify for the defense if there is a trial.

I am not a trained mental health professional but I deal with troubled people all the time. Tori needs to spend several months in a safe mental health facility and she needs to be on medication. Then she needs long term work with a psychotherapist. If she does not do these things, her tragedy will continue to unfold.

All this in no way justifies what was done to her. But it does show that she managed to help create the disaster.

The SAO has offered a plea deal to three of the girls, but not to Mercades. Is It because they want to get even with Christina for the lawsuit, or is it because Christina has refused to allow her daughter to accept a plea deal?

But in this story, the second interesting person to me is Christina. I am sure she knows much more about this story than she is willing to admit, maybe even to herself. If it were my daughter, I would not have greeted the investigating detective with profanity, thus getting things off to a wonderful start. Nor would I have filed a lawsuit. Christina, you followed some bad, bad advice. Your daughter is in the hands of people who really have the power to hurt her. And maybe they are doing such a thing right now. Or maybe you refused a plea deal. Or maybe Tori and her family refused to sign on to such a thing, which would have been necessary.

Mercades is the next interesting person. The girl without a clue. But really? Somebody had to somehow get that select crew of villains into the same house at the same time. They didn’t migrate there out of instinct. We know now that April and Brittany Mayes had threatened Tori, promising to exact justice when Tori managed to escape the soft ball girls. And how in the world did Brittini, the master bully, manage to get there? And Kayla, who manifested an almost hysterical hatred for Tori, urging Brittini to keep on beating her victim? And who in the world had the idea to bring the video camera?

I would say that Mercades set it up, but she was conflicted, somewhat uneasy about the confrontation she had put together. Thus, the profane confrontation when Tori showed up at the house, the shouts to leave. Kayla was possibly also conflicted, so she joins in. But Tori the vagabond, who had arranged her life so that she thought she had nowhere else to go, did not get it. Nor did Mercades tell her that April the other monster was there, along with Brittany Mayes, the camera expert and cheer leader to violence. When Tori insisted on walking into the trap, Mercades probably felt vindicated, because “didn’t I warn you?” But maybe she also was a bit glad to see that it was all going to happen.

Maybe that is what the SAO sees by not offering Mercades a plea deal. Somehow everybody arrived at her house. Somehow she sat there on the couch to take it all in, even when Tori was begging for a phone, begging to leave. Afraid of Brittini? Or simply now trying to lay all the blame on this monster of a friend.

People say Brittini can be seen locking the door, but the picture is very dark. When Tori is pleading for the phone, Mercades seems to be by the door. When Brittini appears to begin the bully pattern by “standing up” for Mercades, she appears from the left. She is not near the door. April also appears from the left and the camera is taking its shots from the left. The door is to the right. All of the time, she is confronting Tori and Tori would have seen her lock the door. April, dressed in red, comes into the scene from the right and gloats. Kayla, dressed in blue, enters the scene briefly but does not approach the door. April leaves. But in the dark picture there is that one other dark figure by the door. Mercades. Tori said she locked the door and I believe she did, setting the trap for someone she had called a friend.

April is a scary young thug. Her pictures with Brittany Mayes show that dark look I have often seen in troubled girls. People with that look are capable of hurting others. Again, I am puzzled by what 17 year-old Brittany Mayes is doing with a 14 year-old. Most high school friendships do not have such a large gap. The older person is usually quite immature. If he or she was not immature, he would be with someone of the same age.

The really scary person is Brittini. Did you have a good look at the pictures her aunt posted that were taken after the beating? The girl’s Myspace page announces that she feels happy and loved. She has built a box around the brutal violence she committed only days before. Take a long look at her pictures…scary scary eyes, a hard and brutal face. My favorite is when this monster is posing with her infant godchild. BH seems so pleased and so proud. Godparents are chosen because they will give good example to their godchild. Something tells me that Godmother Brittini is not going to be telling her godchiild about this chapter in her life. But the record is out there, and that girl will get to see it for herself.

There you have it. Something that could make a fascinating stage play about doomed destiny, about troubled young people coming together to create a mutual disaster they will have to live with forever. Maybe I should write that book.

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November 24, 2008

Sarto

A final thought for Christina. I know you want to believe in your daughter’s innocence, although, as I said, you might know more than you are willing to admit and maybe you began to have a very sick feeling when the SAO raised the other things Mercades had done to the level of felonies and posted an unbelievable bail. The sick feeling: What did I do to cause this to rise to a new level? You were dealing with very powerful people and you should have known better.

But anyway, here is an experiment you can try to discern, as Mercades said, the truth or the lie. It is very simple. Just remind Mercades that the state has the technology to lighten that dark part of the video and show clearly who was where, doing what. Ask her, “When they lightened that video so that they could see everyone clearly, who was the person who locked the door?” You know your daughter. You know when she has lied to you and you know when she is telling the truth. So, measure her answer. She will probably say, Brittini. Remind her that, if there is a trial, everyone will get to see that part of the video clearly for themselves. Brittini. The truth? Or a lie?

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November 24, 2008

christina garcia

Sarto: All I can say is hahahahahaha! You are to funny, me not have the writing skills? Wow…I guess all my A’s in highschool and in college were somehow pay offs huh? And when I was awarded in my Language Arts class for finding an error in a very publicized book that was handed out as a learning instrument? Its ok, you have a right to your opinions, and who knows maybe I’ll recognize you on the inside cover of my book as my inspiration. : ) So many people on here are far from good spellers, but I won’t sit on here and correct everyone, I had to learn this early on when I was correcting people more than conversating. Maybe I do let my anger get the best of me on here and spell something incorrectly, but rest assure my love I am taking my time with my book. Again, thank you for your concern

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November 24, 2008

christina garcia

Sarto:
Have you seen the runaway reports? You couldn’t have, because the parents never reported her missing. The Detective on the case, told me himself ” Oh, this is a sad story, the parents didn’t even report her missing.” And its because she didn’t run away she was kicked out. Which only makes her story even sadder. I have no motive for telling this, as it does nothing for my daughter. But it is true!

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November 24, 2008

christina garcia

Another point Mr. Sarto:

You have wasted 3 boxes with your words my friend, if you had only researched before you wrote. I have stated on here many times that I am not writing about the beating. And I am surprised that you don’t know more about the case seeing how you are so interested in it. You should go ahead and purchase the package that is offered from the courthouse, making the State even more money. You have too many inconstincies for me to correct all of them, I’m sure someone on here with more time can and will do it for me. : ) tata

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November 24, 2008

gompertz

One of my earliest concerns about this case was that some Hollywood types would exploit the situation and turn it into a sordid kind of entertainment. Now we are in the presence of a trained writer who hints that some of those who blog here may have the honor of being included in his upcoming literary composition. I suppose it was inevitable.
While I welcome all sorts of input from diverse sources, I am sensitive to the fact that different people have different reasons for posting here. I wonder whether those who make writing a vocation might see a danger of becoming overly identified with their professional point of view. What struck me was the fact that the person who admonished us to remember that there is a real victim here is the same one who suggests turning this whole thing into a stage play. Perhaps such an exercise would be remunerative for the writer, and maybe even be therapeutic. However it has limited positive value and could do a great deal of harm. What a disaster if the miscreants were given starring roles in a reenactment of their misdeed.
Yes, there is a lot of material here for dramatization. How about a remake of Golding’s Lord of the Flies with an all-female cast? It may already have been done by some ambitious wordsmith, but I wouldn’t know, I don’t follow the latest literary fashions.
While I am usually careful about offending anyone, I have no such concern here. From reading his posts, I can see that our helpful friend has insulated himself from criticism by transforming all opposition into a role in his play. Or by ignoring it. For the sake of his own sanity I hope that reality hits him in the head and penetrates the artificial environment he has constructed for himself.

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November 24, 2008

Sarto

Oh, please. I approached this as an author interested in the plot of the thing because I think that is where the truth really lies. Not in the philosophy or the theology or the claims of support hashed over and over ad nauseam. I stuck with this site long enough to have some of my curiosity satisfied. I made the remark about the book as a kind of exclamation. This is wonderful melodrama. I have no intention to write anything about this redneck saga because I have much better things to do. But in the future, somebody is going to have a good time modeling some kind of writing project after the craziness of it all. It really would make a good novel about the modern redneck south. Or it could be polished up to have more universal significance as a stage play.

Christina proves once again how volatile she is. All her talk about “support” is crap. She has grist to grind. Christina, unless you have a backer who imagines a fortune coming off your effort, you will have trouble getting this book published. You have no idea how hard it really is. And, despite your exalted grades no, you do not have the skills to do what you propose to do. The first thing that is obviously lacking is the self discipline. So…prove me wrong and I will applaud your success. First time authors usually need a course in writing or somebody by their side to help. Believe me, I am not volunteering. Profane but somehow college educated women who imagined they have been wronged by the local sheriff do not ring my bell. But I do find law enforcement in Florida, along with the SAO office and crime and punishment, to be a scandal. The writers on Topix bring this whole scary story out into the open, and it is really more interesting and compelling than philosophy and theology 101.

Let me summarize what usually happens to people who decide to write a book. Unless you can finish it early and well, while the interest is still on about the beating story, that book of yours will look good on your shelf in manuscript form or stashed in a drawer on a flash drive, because that is the way most books end up, especially first time authors. Maybe after you pay off the lawyers and Tori’s medical bills, you will have enough money to do hire some vanity press to do the book electronically. They could run off a few copies to hand out to your friends.

Have you challenged Mercades to answer yes or no about locking the door? I don’t think you really want to know. Because if she locked the door, she was the mastermind and deserves the worst punishment of all.

In the meantime, I wait with curiosity to see how the plea bargains are going to turn out. Will Tori get justice or will the kids get a slap on the hand? Will Mercades go to trial so her lawyer can brutalize Tori where she left off? If there is a trial, I will nod with satisfaction when the dark part of the video, now enhanced so that we can see what is really going on, shows that Mercades the stage manager has just locked the door.

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November 24, 2008

GregS

Sarto do you hate Mercades? why are you so sure she is the mastermind? Do you know something we don’t?

And did you have to call these people Rednecks? I don’t see how that attitude helps the situation.

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November 24, 2008

gompertz

Well, well, my suspicions are confirmed. There is a lot of hostility lurking behind the veneer of urbane irony, and it didn’t take much to touch a nerve. The attitude expressed by the term Redneck was always there, together with the whole condescending manner, and it seems all it took was a little application of psych 101 to expose it for what it is.
I myself prefer not to go back over the details of the video, it is hard to look at, and I leave the more detailed investigation to others. Please understand that I do not accuse anyone here of having a “Bill Maher” kind of fascination with this, I don’t know and I don’t want to know. Yes, everyone is welcome to post what they want and take any point of view they want, and any restrictions on that liberty are up to the blog operator to decide.
At the same time, we are also free to take a more philosophical approach, and some may find that interesting. Those who do not can introduce different approaches, and they do so. As for myself I welcome vigorous disagreement, and I would rather engage in angry but honest exchanges than have to deal with someone’s patronizing attitude.
Furthermore, if anyone thinks that such condescension is helpful to the troubled youths they deal with in their professional capacity, they are deluding themselves. The ability to show genuine concern is sadly absent in most of these professionals, and their intervention does no good, and often makes the problem worse. The young people exposed to this kind of professional “intervention” are shrewd enough to know what they are dealing with. Where there is no empathy on the part of the therapists, there can be no healing and the encounter can only lead to cynicism on the part of the subject. How can a therapist or counselor help troubled young people if he thinks of them as Rednecks?

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November 24, 2008

Sarto

Of course I don’t hate Mercades. But I do loathe what she and the others were involved in. As the smallest person in my class until the eleventh grade, I experienced bullying in spades, with the feelings of terror and helpless rage that go with it. As a teacher, I am sickened to see bullying grow more and more sophisticated and more and more violent, with groups ganging up without remorse on a single victim.

I think it is the parents’ job to teach their kids not to be bullies. I sympathize with Mercades because she has apparently received violence within her own family (Father hitting her in the face, mother spanking her at age 15). But now that she is bullying in her own right, her mother does not seem to be forcing her to face up to what she has done.

When Brittini Hardcastle found herself in jail, she called a female, probably her mother, who said, “How could you be so mean?” Brittini tried to explain her monstrous deeds away, but the woman kept at it, until Brittini admitted, at least over the telephone, what she had done was terribly wrong. Still, she admitted no shame.

When Brittany Mayes showed up at her court hearing, a reported shouted: Are you going to apologize to Tori? B’s mother responded, “She hasn’t done anything!” Hasn’t done anything? Her use of the camera probably helped drive the thing into the horrible thing it became. She encouraged the violence and gloated over it. But her mother is helping her daughter imagine that she, somehow, is another victim. Immense parental failure there. Its going to take a lot more time than it should for B. Mayes to face the truth.

And now, Mercades. No matter how you try to explain it away, somebody made the phone calls or text messages that recruited those gangsters to Mercades’ house. They had one thing in common: They all wanted to get Tori and hurt her as badly as possible. Kelsy came along with her video camera. Who suggested that it might come in handy?

I cannot believe that Mercades did not know what April planned to do when Tori went into the bedroom to start putting her things together, so that she could leave. Did Mercades go with her to make sure she was safe from April? When she heard someone shout, “April, hurt her!” along with the sound of beating fists, Tori’s screams, and BM’s squeals of ecstasy, did she rush in to stop it? Did she immediately give Tori the phone and let her follow April’s command and go? After BH starts the bully routine, she retires to the couch to watch things unfold. As I said, at one point she reaches for a pillow to make herself more comfortable, and seems to smile.

In her sworn testimony, Tori says Kelsy finally went to give her a phone but Mercades grabbed it out of her hand. The only time she said anything was to protect Poppa’s ashes and tell the mob to keep it down.

I do not hate Mercades but I am furious at her betrayal of someone still listed days later as one of her best friends. Where was her shame? I think the feeling of shame, guilt, and remorse are an essential part of the healing process. I don’t think Tori will be able to move forward if her former “friends” do not feel these emotions.

I am speaking out of emotion? You bet. Mercades needs to know that what she did was beyond simple cruelty. Betrayal hurts more than cruelty and the wounds last longer. She has to understand this.

Then there is the fact that the kids could get together later and gloat over the video, perhaps watching it again and again to cheers and laughter. This was, pure and simple, a monstrosity.

If Christina really wanted to support Tori, the first thing she should have done is cooperate as completely as possible with the detectives. Instead, it was curses and the refusal to hand over the cell phone (Until everything was conveniently erased?) Read the detective’s report. It was only the video that exposed what Mercades had really done. How can Mercades come to terms with the true horror of her actions unless her mother stops that enabling behavior. I know Christina will reject everything I have just said, but so what? When she went on television she could not accept that hers was a troubled daughter who was screwing up her life. She tried to turn the TV interviewer into the villain and implied that Tori had somehow deserved what happened.

That is why a narrative approach works best without all the philosophizing and Theologizing. I have a Masters in Theology, but I think human behavior, especially violent behavior, needs to be exposed and faced for what it is.

And so, I tried to put the story into a narrative, I watched the sickening videos and read the police reports and the interviews and tried to put it all together in a single coherent story. It is a story full of lies and omissions (Mercedes and Kelsy’s police report) and contradictions (Mercades, the only “friend” of Tori in the room doing nothing while she is beaten…and beaten…and beaten…and beaten….

And then the aftermath, which includes the reactions of the parents: Christina, with her swear words and defiance dutifully recorded by the investigating detective…Christina outraged because Sheriff put part of the video out there for everyone to see…Christina and her stupid lawsuit which seemed to make things much worse for her daughter…Other parents trying to play down what had happened…millions of people all over the world stunned and angered that girls could be such savages. Then the blogosphere, with the long repetitive conversations going on for month after month.

What a deal. As I said, I came to this site out of curiosity. I am satisfied that logic demands that Mercades put it all together, had second thoughts, and then let it roll on and on. I am satisfied that she revealed her control and ownership of the thing when, at the very end at the wheel of the car carrying Tori to her dump-off site, she threatens her former friend with worse if she tells the cops. Why did she make herself the spokesman and prophet, if she was not the head honcho who had used others to accomplish what she wanted and wanted to make sure there were no consequences? I think much more happened than she envisioned, but in the end, she was the spokesperson for the others, making the threat.

Christine, quit all the “support” for Tori, confront your kid to really find the truth, and make sure she gets the long-term help she so clearly needs. Hasn’t she harmed herself and others enough as it is?

I apologize for the red neck remark. I guess it was a reaction to Mercades Myspace page, which offered me my first impression of the young woman. Red neck stuff. F-this and F-that. And…”Let me suck your….?” Holy Smokes. And then there were the illiterate postings over on Topix from people in the Lakeland area. Lakeland is not exactly a high point of culture. I apologize for the red neck bit, but our psychodrama is an interesting glimpse into blue collar communities in the modern South, and the amazing realities of Florida justice and juvenile protection system, which would not last for a minute where I come from. I’m out of here.

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November 24, 2008

gompertz

There is nothing wrong with taking different approaches if we are respectful of each other’s views. And the apology for the Redneck remark is appreciated.
As for what we see, it is always open to interpretation. Oh, I don’t mean that the act of beating someone is ambivalent. As has been said many times, the video speaks for itself, and the deed cries out for punishment. As for Mercades, I think there is room for disagreement about her failure of nerve, but rather than repeat myself, I’ll just say that there are facts yet to be revealed that may shed more light on that subject. What facts might those be? For example, the role of Jake. There may be evidence forthcoming to demonstrate that Mercades was seriously mistreated by this person to the extent that we might judge her less harshly. Notice I said it may be forthcoming.
Now, with the brutal ones being offered plea deals and not Mercades, might we not be more amenable to the notion that the sheriff is being vindictive? Maybe. But what seems certain is that the prosecution comes off looking silly, after all the tough talk about possibility of life imprisonment.
We don’t know for sure, but it’s possible that the prosecution backed down because Victoria did not want to go through the ordeal of being attacked again by those brutal lawyers. And while we have no video of the deposition, it’s not hard to imagine Spoto, sitting there like a phlegmatic slug, allowing the atrocity to unfold. So there is plenty of blame to go around beyond the perpetrators themselves.

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November 24, 2008

Amyv

Wow this whole thing has gotten totally out of control. People bragging about their degrees and all of this non-sense about writing books. Wow.

How has this whole mess started. I know we have all gotten way off topic here but, this has gone to new extremes.

I can’t tell from some of these blogs what these people are talking about. And, where is all of this additional information from. Has nothing been learned.

Many references have been made about myspace pages. I would think that not one person involved in this violent crime would want a myspace available to the public. I know you can make them private only. So, unless you are a hacker, some parents need to step up and instruct their kids to refrain from having a myspace period.

I hope any teenager reading these blogs, does not learn from us as an example. I include myself in this comment. This has become beyond ridiculous.

What should be learned is never, ever for any reason should this behavior be tolerated. Do not lay your hand on another human being. Do not partcipate in holding a victim against their will for any reason, no matter who locked the door. Do not for any reason inflict such severe and sickening emotional distress on someone. Do not take any form of sickening pleasure out of inflicting this kind of terror on another human being.

Learn this and maybe we have taught you something. And, do not believe that the police can not be trusted. Someday, you might need then when someone is trying to harm you. Usually people who have a deep distrust for the police department have been on the wrong side of the law. They are their to help you. Some bad apples in their, but as a whole dedicated to serving others.

These girls deserve punishment. They have no one to blame but themselves. So, take responsibility for your own actions. So you will never be scared of sentencing being to harsh. Nothing to fear if you do not commit a crime.

Parents – Do not try to condone what these girls have done. Their is never going to be any excuse for their behavior. All of them commited crimes whether they hit this victim or not. So, since teenagers may be reading these blogs, they should know that punishment will occur.

Also, if adults are willing to get on here and speak of a victims supposed psychological problems what are you teaching them? That the victims life style is to blame? Don’t let them believe this will be a valid defense.

Since this information supposedly came from an ex-boyfriend, how do we know it is reliable. HIPPA laws would prevent these details being disclosed by any professional that may have access to these details.

Also, we are trying to prevent further incidences like this from happening in the future. How, will they learn when adults use comments like Jake the Snake. Why would you even think that would be acceptable to say about another potential victim.

Also, unless you see with your own eyes someones true myspace, do not readily believe that they have a reference to the KKK. As this is a very serious accusation. And since many of these myspaces have been proven to be false, I question anyone of them. Yes, that also includes the false ones for Mercades.

I will also apologize to teenagers as I have personaly attacked Mercades. I should not make it personal, just stick to the facts. My anger my displaced and was meant to be directed at her mother. This does not mean I have changed my opinion as to the level of guilt. And, this does not mean I have changed my mind about the motivation of her mother.

However, showing such anger only condones what I have been against the whole time. You can have an opinion of someone with out bad moughting. Just as the victim is the last person who should be being bad mouhed on this blog.

If anyone denies this, just read prior comments. This is not a way to prove innocence or excuses for any of these girls.

No one except the victim should even consider writing a book on this subject. Since, their is no way this story would not make sense unless told in its entirety. You can not start with emotional distress caused by a sheriff to a mother of an accused criminal. No one would have a clue what was being discussed. That does not make sense. Profit should not be gained from this crime. Since, advise was asked about what kind of cut would be fair with the publisher, someone is looking to make money off of anothers misery.

I have my doubts anyone would buy a book written about this crime from anybody but the victim. Watch out I smell an attempted movie deal here. And, that could not be passed off as therapy for someones emotional distress.

A big thing that does not add up what so ever is if you are so terrified of a sheriff you have to buy a gun, why sue? And, also just in case all of these corrupt people are reading why further insult this person by saying you have messed with the wrong person. Surely does not sound like someone who is scare for their life to me. This just does not add up no matter how you spin it.

Gompertz – Curious why would it be o.k. for one person to write a book and say they are going to dedicate it someone. And then another person turns around and says the exact same thing, but you only condemn one. Just asking for some reasoning her.

Sparto – Find it hard to respond to you. I am not quite sure at all what you are talking about. You are all over the place. Do not lump all southerns in the same category. Redneck has already been used against a boy on here and I stated that was inappropriate also. Brings up another point though, why is it o.k. to refer to a potential victim as a redneck with no back lash. But, jumped real quick for using it against anyone else.

A lot of one sidedness going on here. If it is unacceptable for some, it should be unacceptable for all. No matter what your gut feeling makes you feel about someone you do not even know.

Just curious.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Amy, some very good thoughts expressed in your post, I can’t comment on all of them, ready to go to sleep. Still, your question about the book you bring up, let me see if I answer it the way you meant it, I’m not sure. As for Christina writing a book, I like the idea. She has a unique perspective and it might be something people wil want to read. Now, anyone has a right to write a book, and if it sells, so be it. For convicted criminals, I’d say they shouldn’t profit from their crime. In NY they have something called the Son Of Sam law, I don’t know if they have that in Florida.

I’m not sure if this is what you meant, but why I was critical toward Sarto was, I felt a certain flippancy, or frivolity in his whole approach. He mase it seem, to me at least, that this was all a game, saying he was going to include some of the bloggers in some literary project. Im sorry, I just felt some hostility there, and if people want to be hostile, let them be open about, instead of concealing it behind some elaborate pretext, like writing a grand narrative.

If people want to xamine the video from a fresh point of view, why nit? My problem is, we already knw what happened, even though I haven’t watched it for months. And I don’t want to watch it any more, because it will only get me angry and make me want to go to Polk County with sharp pointy weapons and inflict serious pain, which is the same feeling I had when I first saw it. And what good is that? And sayiong we are going to approach it as if it were a stage play, I thought that was irreverent. Turn it into a play if you want, or an opera, or whatever, but don’t turn it into a game.

Amy you are right,things have gotten out of control. But remember the whole thing started with that video and a horrible beating that was way out of control and inflamed a lot of passion. So I guess it’s just inevitable that people all reacting to it from their various points of view with the various feelings are going to get out of control sometimes.
Now I have to sleep, so good night.

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November 25, 2008

Sarto

Well, I just got back from a morning of deer hunting. Something about spending hours in my favorite canyon helps clear my mind. Lots of looking but no shooting and that is a successful day for me.

Let’s see…what thoughts came up. First, I remembered my “red neck” remark and reminded myself of my own red neck roots. This is surely the reddest of all the red states–we went for McCain by 68%. My ancestors were all ranchers and farmers and when I get back with members of my family I slip back to the country twang that characterizes my part of the world. That’s one of the reasons I was hunting. I can go off to college and years and years of graduate school, but I can’t get the back country out of my blood.

Second, when this whole sad story first appeared on television, my daughters were deeply upset because they have daughters of their own. But when I told them what I had been up to recently, they both gave me that “why is Dad embarrassing me again?” look that they have been giving me since they were about ten years old. Christina, they told me to cut you a lot of slack. They referred obliquely to their own growing up and some of their escapades and near misses, but when I tried to get some more information they simply looked at each other and laughed. But they said that it is hard, hard to be parents of girls these days. They each have a teenage daughter. So, their sympathies are with you.

So, my sincerest apologies. Christina, I did not mean to be demeaning when I gave you that information about writing a book. I meant well. But as a counselor, I know that nothing is less welcome than unasked for advice, and so I should have asked you if you wanted my opinion.

I think the reason I wrote what I did about writing is because I also had a book to write that would reform the world. With a college degree and two masters beneath my belt, I figured I had nothing to learn about writing. Was I wrong. I went to a community college to learn some of the fine points of writing for publication. Sure enough, my first book was a bust. Time had gone by and history had moved on. My crucial subject was no longer on the radar screen. The publishers were looking for something on the new issues afflicting the world. But since then, I have written four more books, two of them non-fiction, which sold lmore than forty thousand copies, and two of them novels, which didn’t sell at all. I am currently working on a third novel which will surely be one of the great novels of all time. Anyway, I learned that this is a tough, tough game, a lot harder than I was prepared for.

I stumbled onto this blogsite by accident. I was wondering what the fate of the five girls finally was, so I went on Tracing the Motive, which gave an update and said that Christina was blogging here. I went to this blog wondering what Christina had to say. Christina, you are as feisty as ever and that can get you into trouble, but (more unasked for advice) don’t change. It also gives you energy.

This was my first real adventure in blogsville. I found some really thoughtful writers, especially Gompertz. This has been an interesting experience, but I have to get back to writing my novel which, as I said, takes huge energy and leaves me without the energy to do a lot of other things, including blogging.

Christina, Yave te bendiga y te guarde. Yave haga resplandecer su rostro sobre ti y te conceda lo que pidas, vuelva hacia ti su rostro y te de la paz.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Sarto, your comments brought a smile to my face. I felt bad about the approach I took to your posts, and as usual, I found they looked a lot worse when I read the over than when I thought them out, they just sounded so clever. Now I just want to say I’m sorry. And it’s not the first time and probably won’t be the last that I have to apologize for rash statements.

I’d like to add a few remarks of my own about how I got to this blog. I went to college, back in the 60’s, but because I drank my way through it and dissipated my energies in various unseemly ways, I never profited from my education. I wound up working at jobs that were not particularly demanding intellectually, but left me lots of time to think and study on my own. So my own perspective on life comes from being on the outside, and taking a critical look at how “the system” works. I have many friends who went on after college to respectable careers in various professions, and the insights I got from them only confirmed my suspicions about how imperfect things were. Still, I felt that I was becoming more and more alienated from social contact and using philosophy as an escape.

When I got my computer 6 months ago, I discovered that it was a great way to get back into the midst of things, and blogging felt good, and still does. I do look forward to getting on with other projects and I imagine that I can still be of benefit to humanity. You can’t imagine the looks I get when I tell people I want to “benefit humanity” so I don’t talk that way in public anymore. Yes, I do hope this whole messy case will end soon and I can move on, but I fear it will still be with us, in one form or other. Maybe we can derive useful lessons from the outcome, as unsatisfactory as it will probably be.

Still, the doubts I expressed about the value of professional therapists and counsellors have been with me since childhood, and I have known people who seem to have been harmed rather than helped by treatment they received. And worst of all,, the people I have known who did hard time in prison and received counseling there, came out more angry and bitter and just as violent as before. I asked one of them what he thought counseling had done for him, and he answered soemthing like “It taught me to be more assertive in taking what I want.” I don’t think that’s good advice to give someone who has several convictions for armed robbery. I wonder if you see a real problem here, or has my personal experience made me see the profession unfairly.

At this point, I want to say again I am sorry for the stupid remarks I made. Best wishes to you and your family.

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November 25, 2008

Scott

Amy, Gompertz keeps saying he hears the girls will get off with lenient plea bargains. I find that hard to believe. Can you imagine the outcry if that’s the case especially after Sheriff Judd brought this violent case into the spotlight to begin with. Or maybe there won’t be much of an outcry since this case has been largely fogotten by the national media. No matter whatever happens Tori needs to protect victims rights and file civil suits agains the girls. But I’m not sure she will do this. She might just want to ge tthis whole terrible ordeal over with. Who could blame her?

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November 25, 2008

Electronica

greg how do you know britti didnt feel bad about what she did you dont know you just make it up. tori said britti said sorry. and i read on topix britti said she cant beleve she was so mean. but you just make up stuff about her and pretend you know what she feels but you dont.

and greg idk how bad britti is maybe shes done this many times and maybe shes done this just once and shes really sorry and realy cant beleve she was so mean and shed never do it again. idk and i dont pretend t know!

and greg maybe if some kid fell into a lake full of aligators and twenty girls were there maybe only britti would jump in and save the kid. you dont know! i know some mean boys who done right when it really counted.

scott i dont make excuses for the girls i said theyve done wrong and didnt do right and should be punished. and i didnt say your unfair i just said you keep on getting the facts wrong all the time. and you sure do.

sarto its myspace not facebook and its kayla and kelsy. your as bad as tv and almost as bad as scott.

and sarto what you say aout merc doesnt make sense. i mean first its obviously britti not merc who closed the door go get a better monitor or buy yourself better glasses. anyway it doesnt matter who closed the door it was ajar and dark outside it made sense to close that door. and it locks from inside theres a bolt so you dont lock anyone inside. so its silly to say there anything wrong with that and its sad how gronwups turn silly just to make some girl look worse than she really is yur not the only one who tried and tried.

and sarto you invite two girls over and five come thats normal too you dont know much about that do you. you dont know who got invited by merc and who by someone else. and you dont read her mind you dont know what mecr was planning all you know she had britti help her kick out tori. and tori had all her stuff it says so in the paper her ride said so. and tori says she went to the bedroom to get phone numbers not to get her stuff. so again you dont know what you talking about.

so sarto maybe your novels dont sell cause their fake and dont feel true.

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Scott, the reports that the plea deals are lenient are of course unconfirmed. I’m starting to wonder, too, if the offers are so lenient. You would think that if it were just community service or house arrest, the girls would go for it immediately. Of course, whenever lawyers are involved, you never know. They work in mysterious ways and can create complications out of nothing.

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November 25, 2008

Scott

Electronica, the facts are in the 2 videos and we all know what happened there. It’s factual.

Gomp, maybe the girls won’t plea out and will go to trial. But probably not. Wouldn’t that be ballsy?

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November 25, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I think they would be crazy not to take a plea deal, even if it involves a little jail time. The alternative could be hard time and permanent felon status. Who knows, maybe they’re feeling lucky and want to gamble. We’ll see.

Electronic, isn’t it possible that Sarto’s novels don’t sell because people just aren’t buying them. Maybe he is a very good writer and his stuff just isn’t fashionable at this time, but it might be at some later time.

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November 25, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I had to wait a while before I responded to your post. This post has also offered me some kind of comfort during a year of difficulty as you know from my post before. When you withdraw from social contact it can become a very lonely thing. although we are getting quite off topic here, blogging to others does give you a sense of belonging whether you are agreed with or not. May sound strange to some people. But, I think you will understand this the most.

I am now back on my feet and happily back to doing a job I love and interacting with people on the outside. I wish the same for you as well.

Certainly our society today has definitely become greedier and violent crimes are at their highest peak. It sometimes feels easier to with draw from this but, you benefit more from continuing to live your life in a way that you feel benefits society.

Whether it be a religious belief or other methods, these I believe are what get us through difficult times.

Electronica – I do not wish to watch the video anymore. I made that choice a while ago. It does invoke anger and has no benefit at this point. Their will be a higher quality in the court room therefore things should be much clearer when brought before a jury. If no plea deals are taken.

We can all watch the videos on the internet and argue who said what and who did or did not perform a certain act. But, unless you are privy to a better copy than what I have been able to find, somethings are difficult to make out.

However, I do find your comment about the locking of the front door disturbing. From what I could make out it did appear to be Brittini Hardcastle. But, that really is not my point. You say it was not big deal. It was significant as it was not a necessary action at that point. The most logical reason for this would be obvious. To prevent the victim from leaving and to block anyone from coming in. The timing of that action is just to clear to read any other way.

Scott – I have always thought plea deals came with lighter sentences. But, I am not a lawyer so not so sure. And since no one that we know of has accepted on yet perhaps, they are harsher than the attornies are willing to accept.

I also agree that of course Christinia Garcia would know more about this. That will come out when it is deemed necessary. But, since as she stated herself she is unable to speak to Mercades lawyer, the information must be harder to come by.

As far as whether or not Victoria ran away from home or was kicked out, is again irrelevant to what these girls did. Are we to believe from a woman who has through out blamed the sheriff and corruption for tainting the publics opinion.
I should have referred to her statement before this last comment. The one where she says an officer told her how sad it was that the victims parents did not even report her as a run away.

I have asked this question several times of some of you and have still not gotten a response. Why iis it so easily accepted from this woman that her daughter has been made a victim in this case. The remarks made about the victim growing up without a mother, we all know she does have a stepmother and father. And from what I have seen from them, they are truely kind and compassionate people and have refrained from making remarks about these girls to a level of extreme pacifism that I can only admire.

However, when it is stated that Mercades does not live with her mother (not quite sure where the father figure is in this one) everyone jumps to her defense. Take it as bashing her if you will but, I am just trying to get to some kind of logic hear.

Yes, I did say something about her daughter I should not have. I should stick to the facts. Her daughter is a horrible friend, has violent tendancies and was present during this whole ordeal and facing additional charges. Her appearance should not be commented on as that is low class.

I would just like someone to explain it to me. Why just by gut feelings she and her daughter are good people but, even Cara Murphy is worse than Mercades (as stated by Garcia). Also, stereotyping and gut feelings are used to defend her daughter against the ex boyfriend. It is acceptable to accuse him of horrible things and refer to him by a crude nick name. Why is this condoned without any questioning of this mother. She is doing to Victoria and Jake the same thing she attacks people for saying about her daughter and is defended vigoriously for it.

Maybe, his mother should blog here and be awarded the same respect that is shown to Garcia. Although, I am sure she will take these comments personal.

I have made no bones about the way I feel about her tactics. Also, I am very suspicious of her motives. But, these questions on ask to get responses from some of the people who tolerate certain behavior and condone others.

Christinia – As far as people would agree you have been to easy on me well, that would be their opinion. Personaly, I also do not care what you feel about me. But, once again I can refrain from using nasty words when getting my point across. As seen on this post you do not seem to have that ability. Or maybe it is because this type of language is not in my vocabulary and slips out easily in yours. Although, I am sure you will argue effectlly on that point as well.

Just basing all of this from facts on this blog. GN all. Gompertz – have a little more faith in society.
Although, not as many as I woud like, their are still compassionate and trust worthy people on the outside. Sounds kind of funny.lol

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November 26, 2008

GregS

Electronica, Britini Hardcastle is a psychopath. April Cooper is a psychopath. Michael Vick said he was sorry too, sorry to have been caught. And I believe Ms.Hardcastle and Ms. Cooper are only sorry they got caught. I have not seen any empathy from either of them during the beatings, or after.

I personally wouldn’t trust Hardcastle or Cooper to save my life. I wouldn’t trust either one of them to carry a gun, even if we were having a civil war, I wouldn’t trust them. Violent psychopaths do not make good soldiers, they tend to not respect authority. They also tend to not be able to control their emotions.

The only way I’d trust someone like Britni Hardcastle and April Cooper is if they were directly related to me, because then at least we’d have a blood bond, but these girls are not my blood, and they aren’t capable of empathy or compassion so I don’t see how they’ll be useful to me, my relatives, or even my friends.

Just because someone apologizes to you, it doesn’t mean they are really sorry. Anyone can say anything. Her behavior has not proven that she’s sorry. She has not changed, she’s still got the thug mentality and bad attitude. After she beat the victim up, April Cooper blamed the victim saying she brought it on herself.

I have no sympathy, compassion or empathy for these two girls. If you keep trying to feel for these girls they’ll just manipulate your feelings like they are doing to many others.

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November 26, 2008

GregS

I know I’m the first one here to put their business out there, but it’s obvious to anyone who watched the video that Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper need help. You can witness the lack of empathy, remorse or compassion with your own eyes just by watching the video. These girls were not on drugs, these girls weren’t fighting for their lives. They did it for the thrill, and you can hear it in their voices “oooh yeah baby” and see it in their eyes. They thoroughly enjoyed it.

Britni Hardcastle is 18 years old, she’s an adult, to have this behavior at 18 is not a good sign because while the brain of April Coopers might be psychopathic based on the fact that most teenage brains have not finished growing (the frontal lobes don’t finish development until the early 20s), Britini Hardcastle doesn’t have that excuse. I think even if April Cooper were this way today, there is still a slim chance that in the next 6 years her brain might just develop a conscience and abstract reasoning.

Hardcastle has an 18 year old brain, and while an 18 year old brain is not as smart as it’s ever going to be, by 18 the brain is in it’s final stage of development where the individuals are what they are. I think it’s too late to help Ms. Hardcastle, but I think April Cooper might respond to therapy.

I’m not a neuroscientist, I have no access to their medical records. But I hope the judge forces them to get their brains scanned and go have treatment as part of their punishment, because obviously they have some screws loose.

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I can’t imagine that the girls or their lawyers would want to gamble on a trial and possible lengthy jail time. It doesn’t make sense because their assailt and false imprisonment of Victoria is on video for all too see.

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Amy, it’s true that it should be irrelevent to the case and the brutal crimes committed against Tori wheterh she was a runaway or was kicked out of her family home. But sadly Torei being alone and vulnerable made her easy prey for some angry teenage girls who wnated to put on a show with her beating.

Greg, the first paragraph of your last post would be hard for anyone to dispute.

Sarto, I believe you posted yesterday that Hardcastle’s mother asked Britini when she was in jail why she did what she did and was in disbelief about it. But it wasn’t Hardcastle’s mother it was one of her friends who told Brittini she couldn’t believe what she did and was so mean to Tori.

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November 26, 2008

Amyv

Scott – havent had a chance to chat with you much lately. But thank God i finally got my computer back. I wish we could either get more info on the plea deals or find out when the trial is. That is the only way we will truely know. Can you lead me to more sites where I can get more info. True facts. I will blog you later on tonight.

On a lighter note and sometimes we need those Go Gators.

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November 26, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv: Can you please cut and paste where I stated Mercades was better than Cara or vice versa? I am not being sarcastic, I just don’t remember a statement like this. And if ” Peggy” Jake’s mom can stumble to a computer and put the bottle down, I would encourage her to come in here ok? She is the one who will not work with the State on a plea for that case, and do you know what a Judge does when he sees this? He realizes that there is a vendeta and not someone who just wants justoce, and I don’t have to tell you what the result for that is. She has hated Mercades from day 1 for suppodely taking away her little boy. I have posted a comment made by Jake the Snake on Mercades old myspace page, can’t you see he was sneaking around after the injuction his mother forced him into? We have sworn statements from ” Skeen Auto” where he went and helped Mercades look at the truck she was going to buy, all of this after the injuction. The more you speak the more I just want to spill all our eveidence out there, but I have to maintain composure, I don’t want the state to know everything we have for our case, although I have a funny feeling inside that they are unfolding these very facts right now : ) As far as Jake being on the news, and running his mouth..well, duh? He is a teen boy that saw a chance for fame, yes fame. I am just disappointed that more people didn’t see through his sly talk. He is a liar, and would cut your throat without blinking an eye, he told my 7 year old 6 at the time that she was a half bred spic and should be hung by a tree..at 6 years old dam it…yes, dam it! Maybe had you experienced things as I have in your life you wouldn’t be so quick to judge me, my words never slip, I am well aware of what I say.Perhaps had he said something like this to your kid(s) you would think differently, or maybe you are just as racist as he is, I don’t know so I can’t tell you. ( how does that feel?)

Sarto:
Gracias por el credo pero te digo algo, tu palabras lastimarme mucho..no puedas sebir q tantos cosas esta pasando aqui…pero vas a ver. nunca dije q mi nena es una angel. Solo q ella es una muchacha y piensa muy bien..Y tambien q el Sheriff esta un pendejo, esta bien si no me crees pero hay mucho corruption, peor q mexico y otro lados mas. Entonces, por fabor solo hablas de los factos y no las mentiras. Si, yo te perdon era muy dificil y tu sabes por q.

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November 26, 2008

christina garcia

Sarto:
mequicovo ella no piensa bien…y tus palabras

And don’t bother cutting and pasting this to altavista if you really don’t understand spanish, because this is real Vato talk and can’t be translated through a computer, but if you did this for me, it was very special and thank you.

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Amy there is no way to know when the trial will be or what the plea deals will be. And I don’t know of any sites that have more information about the Victoria Lindsay case than you do.

And isn’t it puzzling that the Casey Anthony trial will be set before the trial for those who assaulted and imprisoned Tori? And the Caylee Anthony tragedy took place 3 months after Tori’s assault and Tori’s assault is on video and there is no video evidence to nail Casey Anthony for the death of her daughter. But Casey will be convicted murdering her daughter I guarantee it. Yet Polk County can’t bring themselves to set up a trail date for crimes that are on video. It kind of makes you wonder doesn’t it?

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November 26, 2008

gompertz

Scott, while it may sound crazy, there may be a reason these people would rather risk a trial than accept a plea deal, and it’s just speculation. I’ve asked myself many times how deep their hatred for Victoria goes. Is it possible they hate her with such a deep enduring hatred that they want a trial just so they can see her destroyed on the witness stand, even if they risk prison for themselves? Insane, yes, but judging from their previous behavior, not impossible.

I have known people who did hard time for armed robbery or extortion who I think have a spark of humanity, and they have limits beyond which they will not go. Then I have come across characters who are like soulless vampires who live just for the joy of inflicting pain, and they don’t seem to mind going to prison. We don’t know where on the spectrum of evil these girls are, and some may be worse than others. But I agree with Greg that it doesn’t look promising, at least for BH.

Amy, I’m happy to hear you’re doing well. I think usually withdrawal from social contact is a bad thing. For me, isolation was something I chose because it gave me a chance to reflect on a lot of things. I felt comfortable doing it because I was free of family obligations and I knew it would be a time of adjustment that I needed. Anyway, I was no Robinson Crusoe, and I always had contact with good people who knew the value of taking time to think and analyze your life. And, most important, I have no regrets about the way my life has progressed to this point, and there’s still a lot of things I intend to do.

As for the things we disagree about, when I defend Mercades it is partially because she wasn’t violent. And I look at the video, and we can argue forever about the meaning of her inaction and conclude nothing definite. With those who did the hitting, what is the interpretation? Well, the interpretation is that certain stimuli started a series of nervous impulses to travel to to the brain, etc. and triggered a sensation of pain. Neurologists can fill in the details but for the rest I see no need for interpretation.
As for Cara, if she did some of the camera work, then she would be an active participant, and it is a scandal that she got away with no punishment.
Yes, gut feelings and intuition need to be given their due. Don’t juries rely on such things when deciding guilt or innocence? I saw a jury instructed to rely on “intuition and your own life experiences”, I think those were the judge’s words. I have to rely on my own experiences, I think they are a good guide to judge people, and I try to be fair and reasonable, and I don’t think “use intuition” means using Tarot cards. lol
But isn’t it strange that all were offered deals except Mercades? Can we dismiss the possibility that the sheriff is being vindictive? Why, except for ulterior motives, would the violent ones whose act is right there on tape, be given the easy way out, and not the one whose mother happens to be suing the sheriff? Just something to consider.

And you are right, Amy, there are a lot of good and compassionate people. But as for society as a whole, I have just as much faith in it as I need to have. If I had had less faith in society in years past, I would have a lot more money than I have today. I trusted doctors and lawyers when I shouldn’t have, and I am poorer for it financially. And I am very very careful about naming names, because you never know who is reading this, and if that’s not being paranoid.
Now here is something else where I have to refer to my own experience. I was sensitive as a kid, loved animals and went hiding in the woods at the approach of bullies (Staten Island had a lot of woods in those days). But you can’t stay in the woods all the time, and I allied myself with some guys who knew how to fight. I’ll never forget how I was terrified of fights, even when the others got into violent fights right in front of me. I always got a free pass, because even in those days, they called me “the philosopher” and I was exempt from having to fight. Yes, they had a different code of conduct back then. Finally, I had to realize that even the most peaceful person has to defend himself sometimes, and it wasn’t easy to make the transition. Bt I guess that kind of experience gives me some insight into a situation where a peaceful person may just be too scared to oppose the will of the group, when the group is determined to fight. Not only that, but you might be scared yet manage to act very casual and amused. please understand I’m not defending anyone or attacking anyone, I’m just saying there is room for withholding judgment. And of course we can disagree.

I just don’t see that I am excusing some and condoning others. I don’t accuse at all, the only accusation or condemnation here is for the ones who accuse and condemn themselves by physically beating a helpless victim. As for Jake and the rest of it, of course Christina knows more about that than we do, so why not just leave it at that for now?

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November 26, 2008

gompertz

Christina, I know very little Spanish, but “el Sheriff esta un pendejo” sounds like something I agree with and a lot more people will agree when they learn more facts. It must be hard to know that there are things you just can’t say until the legal process has got around to it. And the pressure must be hard on your family too. Justice will be done and it’s by going through hard times like this that we get stronger, and in the end you will rejoice.

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November 26, 2008

christina garcia

Yesm the pressure is killing me : *( and that’s a fact. Maybe I should have said el es un pendejo but I tend to have hope that people can come out of thier negativity. The sad part is if he had only apoligized and offered to pay off my 30k mortgage that I had to take out due only to his Publicity stunt, the lawsuit probably wouldn’t exist at all. I am a reasonable person until you mess with my kids or my money those 2 things I take VERY personal!

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Yes Gomp it is possible that the girls hate Tori so much and so deeply that they want a trial just so she can be hurt some more. It’s possible but not likely. But maybe their lawyers want a trial so they can drag Tori through the mud and get some publicity in the process. That’s possible and likely.

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November 26, 2008

Electronica

amyv when a doors ajar and its dark outside its normal to close it. id do it and woudnt even think about it. and if theres like arguing going on id close the door cause its embarrasing too. and i dont think it was locked ppl just make up stuff but anyway its normal to lock the door at night and it wouldnt keep tori out now would it otherwise why did britti hurry to the door to block it and stop tori from leaving?

why isnt it enough to say those girls did wrong that we know wy do ppl have to make up stuff against them thats not true?

ppl are like britti and april they didnt really care what tori says or realy did they already made up their minds that theyll punish her. same here ppl made up their minds their just all bad and must be punished real hard and so they make up silly stuff against them to justify making them suffer a lot. ppl dont care about being fair they just care about real harsh punishments. just like brtiiti and april with tori.

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November 26, 2008

Electronica

and amyv yu say everyone this and everyone that but i didnt say what you say eeryone was saying i didint even reat it all here but from what ive seen its just greg and gomp your arguing with others either dnt care or they side with you. so i dont know whats it got to do with me and what to say.

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November 26, 2008

Scott

Electronica, what kind of sentences do you think Hardcastle, Cooper, Nichols, Mayes and Hassall should receive in terms of counseling, probation and adult or juvenile prison and how long? Thanks.

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November 26, 2008

Electronica

and greg maybe its not britti and april its you whose a psycho. you say you dont have any compassion or empathy for them so it means you wouldnt feel sorry if they got killed or something real bad. like i think you dont even know whats sompassion and empathy you just fake it. like i read what you wrote you think kids are like lab rats and you treat them that way to its stupid.

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November 27, 2008

GregS

Electronica, right and wrong isn’t based on feelings, but you are young and don’t understand what I mean yet. In fact some people older than myself never understand it. Order operates on reason not emotion, and without order you cannot have laws and governments.

I don’t have compassion or empathy for them because they didn’t have it when they committed their crime, and because you cannot truly study a situation if you are emotionally biased or influenced. It’s like trying to make decisions while being high on drugs or drunk.

Because I don’t feel any emotions towards them, I don’t feel hate, I don’t feel love, I don’t feel compassion or empathy towards them, I just see their behavior and I recognize their behavior must not be tolerated. I’m not emotionally involved, but it doesn’t mean I’m not capable of feeling empathy and compassion for you for example, or for Christina (Mercades mom), and other people I’ve personally communicated with.

I haven’t communicated with those girls, I just have what we see on the video, and based on whats on the video, I feel nothing for them at all personally, and I despise the behavior on display, so I see it as an opportunity to correct the behavior on display, rather than about emotional involvement or feelings.

Just as the police officer who protects your life isn’t going to feel for the criminal. I know you might feel for the criminals or the bullies but just recognize that this emotion is not in your best interest and therefore is not rational. Unless you can make the case to me that feeling these emotions makes us all safer, I don’t understand why you care so much. These girls are violent and dangerous and until they do something to make up for what they did to Victoria, I’m not going to feel anything for them.

Maybe if they save someones life, or rescue a drowning person then I’ll feel something, but they haven’t done anything at all, and even their parents aren’t doing anything for the Victim.
Nothing currently indicates that these girls are good people.

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November 27, 2008

GregS

Electronica, I know you are a young mind, but you are also very smart and compassionate, I respect that and I’m going to try to explain my thinking to you a bit better.

I believe ethics, as in right and wrong are determined by the outcomes/consequences, not by how it feels. This means yes I can have feelings of compassion, empathy, anger, fear and love, but I don’t make my decisions based on these feelings. Many people who saw this video or other videos were angry, I felt angry at some point seeing one of the videos. While some of the people followed their feelings and made threats to the girls, threatening to kill them, hacking them, threatening innocent people like Christina Garcia, and her family, I did not resort to this behavior because I perceived it as irrational. I saw it as irrational because I looked forward into the future and I saw that the consequences of these kinds of actions would damage innocent people. Because I was rational, I didn’t do the emotional thing, I did the right thing.

What you have to understand is that many other people might feel the same way that you feel, but decide that their feelings aren’t genuine, or aren’t reasonable, and shut that side of them down to keep a clear mind for the decision making process. Gomp has done this, if you look at his early posts he was emotional. Amyv has been trying to do this and struggling to keep her emotions in check.

The purpose is not to treat these girls as “lab rats”, the purpose is to train these girls and modify their behavior. Thats supposed to be the point of prison. I never claimed I want these girls to be physically abused or hurt, I’ve always stated that my only interest and concern is the modification of their behavior, through any means, thats it. I don’t factor in their emotional states because thats not how it works, sometimes pain, fear, pleasure and any emotion can be used to modify human behavior and so I don’t really consider emotions to be something “concrete”, but something “flexible” which we use to set the limits of right and wrong and create a conscience. I want to give these girls a conscience so they never do this again, and the only way to train a conscience into a human or animal, is through the scientific methods discussed. These methods were tested on rats, BF Skinner tested them using the Skinner Box, Pavlov tested them on dogs, I only use these peer reviewed studies as examples to prove beyond all doubt that these methods WILL work.

It does not imply that I think humans are the same species as rats. Just as we test drug treatments on rats to see if we can cure humans, it’s the same thing. Punishment is necessary in the treatment of bad behavior.

So while you may disagree with my punishment, what punishment would you have us give these girls? Do you at least recognize that punishment is a necessary treatment?

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November 27, 2008

Scott

Happy Thanksgiving to all! 🙂 I hope Tori is back with her family today and is happy and thankful for all the good things in her life. And I hope the defendants can find some happiness today as well.

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November 27, 2008

christina garcia

Yes, we are having Thanksgiving here at home, I’m cooking turkey, stuffing, mashed papas, gravy oh yea Mercades’ favorite cauliflower w cheese like gravy. and of course rolls..pumkin pie w cool whip yummo!

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November 27, 2008

christina garcia

I haven&rsquot communicated with those girls, I just have what we see on the video, and based on whats on the video, I feel nothing for them at all personally, and I despise the behavior on display, so I see it as an opportunity to correct the behavior on display, rather than about emotional involvement or feelings.

This is the way the Sheriff wants it! Even if nobody had the gag order, it would not hurt Tori anymore than the media, Judd and everyone else may speak, voicing his ” opinion” not much based on facts from the case. So, while they are allowed to lie, my kid has a gag order?Thats alright guys, just hang tight, some things are getting ready to change BIG time believe that! )

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November 27, 2008

christina garcia

And really even the people that are against my daughter and I right now, when the real facts come out and they will, I don’t want anyone to feel bad, because i understand your reaction is simply from what you have been fed. The public can only go off of what they see and hear, and when all defedants are gagged well, you don’t get both sides which is really unfair to you guys. They have taken away you option to be able to chose, to hear everything and then decide for yourself

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November 27, 2008

Scott

Happy Thanksgiving Christina. And you sound like President Elect Obama with your change edict. )

I bet back in April you never thought that this case would go past Thanksgiving with no resolution of any kind.

And yes Mercedes gag order should be removed.

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November 27, 2008

Phil

I have been reading this blog since the beginning .I have so much that I want to respond to that I ‘m not sure to begin . I think everytime you guys try to say that Electronica disagrees with your points because she is young is a bit condescending. Her views have been backed up with thought ,observation of the assult and research of the documents.I personally do not agree with her at a all but it’s not because she is a teenager . Other adults have posted the same opions with alot less thought . I do have a quesion for Electronica. Why do you believe Kayla when she says she didn’t hit Victoria instead of Victoria when she says in her statements that Kayla hit her a few tims . thanks Phil

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November 27, 2008

Phil

To Amy . I think most people including myself agree with you on pretty much everything you have had to say .Mercades was a participant and not a follower she was the one person who could of stopped this and she made a choice not to . If she was warning Victoria not to come in then she knew what was in store (even if everybody gotcarried away )she should have told every one else to leave but she allowed it to happen.

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November 27, 2008

christina garcia

Phil:
So, because Mercades warned her not to go in because the girls that she didn’t get along with were there visiting, she knew it was planned?

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November 27, 2008

christina garcia

Well, its all on video like everyone says no? Kayla may have done some yelling but she never touched her…

peace

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November 27, 2008

Phil

To Amy . I think most people including myself agree with you on pretty much everything you have had to say .Mercades was a participant and not a follower she was the one person who could of stopped this and she made a choice not to . If she was warning Victoria not to come in then she knew what was in store (even if everybody gotcarried away )she should have told every one else to leave but she allowed it to happen.Mercades had both a leagal and certainly a moral respnsibility to make sure this did not happen

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November 27, 2008

Menace

have any of you heard of criminals gone wild? its all over youtube. Its much worse than this.

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November 27, 2008

Phil

Camera , hitting and humiliation and nothing from your daughter . how could she warn Victoria not to go in house because something might happen and not tell her fellow abusers not to do anything in my house to someone whom she invited to live there .

Reply
November 27, 2008

Amyv

Phil – I do not expect anything will come out that will change my mind about this case. I myself am not basing my opinions of this case on the sheriff. He has not spoon fed me anything.

All I have to do is look at the tape. And, yes I did rewatch it today although I have not done so in a while. I just find it to disgusting. However, in order to refresh my memory I felt I needed to see it again. I did find a much clearer picture on the internet than the one I had watched before.
Someone, and excuse me for not being able to look through all the blogs at this time, stated that the prosecution would be able to clean up this tape and make it much clearer.

This thought had not occured to me before. But, this does make it easier for them to prove who did what. So, this tape is an even more compelling piece of evidence. No, discrepancy over who said what or who was where. It is amazing what benefits technology can play in criminal cases.

Also, instead of finger pointing, they have the ability to analyze these girls voices and compare them to voices on the tape. This way it will be backed by scientific evidence.

Since actual facts have been the main topic of conversation here. The jury in this case will have
and not have to try to cut through all of this she said it or no she didn’t. They will know who said it. This should make their jobs a whole lot easier.

Electronica – I would also be interested in your reasoning for believing certain girls words over the victims. Since, I believe you are the youngest on on this blog, it sheds a different light on a teenagers point of view.

I do not feel I argue with Gompertz or GregS we just have very different points of view. But, their are issues we do agree on. If this was a one size fits all post I doubt any of use would be here anymore.

Maybe, you get upset with me because I ask the same questions of the adults on this post that I am asking of you. Why are some things that are not on the tape, disputed by the victim and have not factful basis allowed to be said without being addressed. I have not yet got a response to this and I have asked several times.

Electronica – I do have a big problem with someone who is allowed to continuously bash a teenager who is involved in another case of violence against Mercades.

Just as it has been stated that Mercades is not here to defend herself, why is the same protection not extended to this teenager that is so readily given by others to Mercades.

Phil – I do find it extremely immature of a mother to call someone by the name Jake the Snake and not be asked to refrain from this sort of behavior. Just as she has accused so many, who have not used nick names like this about her daughter of being unfair.

Also, if the sheriff made false statements about someone and ruined their reputation, then maybe the case should be won. The same can be said of accusing someone of needing to put their bottle down and stumble to the computer to defend theirselfs. I do not know this mother but, if this proves to be a false statement by Mercades mother, I feel a lawsuit would also be allowable in that case. As, her name has been stated, accusations have been made against her publically that could also be harmful to her reputation and no evidence has been provided what so ever.

If you read back on my post I had stated that I felt their were several myspace pages floating around that were fakes. Especially, involving Mercades right after the crime was commited. I believe their was a rebel flag, guns and some other off color comment that shed her in a bad light. Some people choose to believe this my space was true. so why now, when comments have been made about the boys myspace does no one come to his defense? Especially the comment regarding the KKK. That can also get someone killed if the wrong person believed it.

Christinia – I will speak to you directlly on this one. If my boyfriends daughter ever spoke to a younger daughter the way you claim this boy spoke to yours, I would have no problem picking him up by the seat of his pants and throwing him right out in the road. He would NEVER, EVER be allowed to step a foot in my house again. Nor, would be allowed to continue to date my daughter. PERIOD. I also would have called the police since a physical threat was obviously made to a very young child.

Since, you have repeatedly stated that He and Mercades continued to have contact and see each other after the injunction that means he saw her after treating your younger daughter in such a horrible manner with your knowledge. You will defend your children to the end but you fail to protect your youngest daughter from someone you say made threats. That does not sound like protection to me. Where are you when all of these things are happening to your children?

And, your statement about the police officer saying how sad it was their was no police report on Victoria running away, hmm. Maybe their was but they never filed it.

After all this police force is extremelly corrupt. Especially, towards teenagers. Maybe this extends to Victoria to. Just a thought. Oh, and you really think that a judge is going to think that not only the sheriff, police department, media, etc. is going to also believe that this boy and his mother also have a vendeta against you.
Why do all of these people have it out for you?

As for the comment about I might be racist and how does that feel. Actually, was I meant to feel something about that. Because, I truely dont. No you do not know me. If you did you would know that I treat all people the same. Regardless of religion, race or gender. That is one of the reasons I can not not understand why people in this world are so cruel. We all live here together. These attitudes are wasted cruelty and just further my believe in non violence which is the true issue of this case.

For anyone who feels these comments are coming out of emotions, you are correct. But, since I have not misquoted this mother and have based my comments on things that were directly stated, I feel they are backed up with facts as well.

I have stated from day one on here I am a victims advocate and now I feel another person is being attacked. So, my activism will continue for this boy as well.

The comment about this boy blabbing on t.v. and wanting his 15 minutes of fame coming from Christina I find amusing. Especially, since she has been accused of the very same thing, and has apologized and said she misspoke. Once again, just stating the obvious.

Scott – I think this trial is long over due. And, since we believe no one has accepted a peal deal, perhaps they are not getting what they want. However, you just don’t know until everything comes out.

I truely do hope this goes to trial. If I were the prosecutor I would show the tape, give info. on voice analysis and testimony from the victim. I would also present the girls motives and excuses along with a request for lie detector tests. Although, I know these defense attornies would not allow one of these girls to be submitted to one. But, if the whole truth really needs to come out, I do not know why some of these girls would not volunteer to take one.

Also, is it true Victoria said part of the tape must have been ‘accidentaly erased’ as we know this is not the entire tape. That is if the girl or girls involved in taping this found the camera to heavy to hold for a half an hour required a rest.

Reply
November 27, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I just got back and saw your post and some other ones. It is funny how this blog has picked up while Topix has died down. It’s about time they went to work with some voice analysis and also with enhancement of the unclear areas of the tape, because that technology has been around for a long time, hasn’t it? That should clear up a lot of those disputes about who said or did what. As you know I was never that involved in that aspect of this thing and while I read what others wrote about it with interest, I am more into the questions of what this case tells us about ourselves and our society. As far as the factual evidence of the tape, I don’t think our views are that different. We agree, and most people do, that the tape speaks for itself when it shows an act of violence being committed. There is no excuse for the violence we see on the tape, and while I would be interested to know more about the personal stories of BH and AC and whether there is anything in their early histories that would help us to understand why they behaved that way, there is still no excuse for what they did. One must be clear about this: there is a difference between explaining something and excusing it, and when you beat someone like that there is no room for interpretation.

I think the questions you ask are valid and you want the truth just like I do. The questions you address to Christina I will leave for her to take up if she wants to because you ask these things fairly and honestly. But sometimes I am no sure how certain statements are to be taken, like in the matter of Jake. It was back on Nov. 19 you said I had made accusations about Jake based on his Myspace, but I never even saw his Myspace and I don’t know anything about a Confederate flag. So that criticism should have been directed to whoever made that reference to the Myspace in question and not to poor little me. : (
It may not seem like much but that is how misunderstandings start. Now as for Mercades you know what I have said before, that I don’t believe she is a violent person. Also I mentioned that a person can appear very calm and comfortable in the midst of violence and still be frightened to death. Or they can be confused and disoriented because of emotional problems and disappointments. It has been stated that she had a miscarriage and things like that can be traumatic I suppose. Unlike a punch in the head, her behavior is open to interpretation.

I do agree with you that the act of betrayal can hurt worse than the beating, I’ve said it before. The other side of the coin is that the one who betrays a friend through weakness will most likely regret it and that hurts too. Because there is all the difference in the world between the cold calculating betrayal of Judas and the impulsive act of Peter. Judging from what we know about her behavior, Mercades doesn’t seem cold and calculating. We will find out soon enough what evidence exists on Jake and others. But I think Christina has more right than we do to use expressive language about Jake and his grandmother because she is the one directly involved. I don’t know if you ever watched pro wrestling but there was that wrestler called Jake the Snake Roberts who did alright with that name, and the nickname doesn’t sound as bad as some I’ve heard. Anyway I think it’s a bit far-fetched to call Jake a victim. He wasn’t hurt and he wasn’t arrested, and Mercades is the one who got called all kinds of nasty names in the blogs and the papers, not Jake.

Well, we do seem to argue in circles sometimes and who knows, if there is a plea deal there may never be any final answers to the questions we all want answers. So maybe I will have to wait until I get to Florida myself, hopefully in a year or two, and find out myself. Completely off topic, one of the two places I am thinking of relocating (the other is Pittsburgh) is the Tampa area, when I straighten out all my business in NY. And like you, Amy, I will continue to fight for justice. gn

Reply
November 27, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I have owed you an apology for some time now. I typed your name mistakingly in referene to the myspace. It was not you who made that comment and I knew that at the time. It was a typo not a misinterpretation.

As for the betrayal of a friend yes, that is a truely painful experience. It is harder to measure than a punch. However, it can certainly be more painful. Your reference to Judas and Peter is very interesting. Excellent point. And, we do differ on which kind of betrayal was prepetuated by Mercades. As much as I hate to liken this situation to Christ in any way.

We also do not agree on Jake. I feel he has the right to be defended by others because that right has been extended in regards to Mercades on this blog. You yourself have expressed views about Mercades. Although, neither one of us knows either one of these teenages. He did file charges and got a restraining order. So my reasoning for him being a victim is he must have felt in someway threatened.

If we go by comments made on this post about the differences between girls and boys, here is my take on this issue. Teenage boys never want to make themselves look weak. It is big part of our society for men to look strong. So for this teenager to go to school officials and police, he must have been scared of something. I also think the school system failed him by not intervening sooner before it escalated to this point.

According to this boy, he was threatened by Mercades that she would have a pack of boys beat him up. Does it make him less of a victim because this actually did not happen. Since we have seen that these teenagers are not above having more than one person beat up each other this is by no means a threat to be taken lightly.

Just as their has been much concern about people threatening to, excuse me, kick these girls a**. I you read why the law suit was filed, part of it was because it put this girl in danger. But, nothing has happened to her. So, the suit has no merit if we go by this philosophy. I hope I am making sense here I am very tired.

I am also worried about what teenagers will come away with if they are reading these posts. How will they ever learn to trust police or people in authority if they are to believe this was all a big conspiracy. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on many of these issues especially where Garcia is concerned.

Just by the tape alone it is very difficult to conclude that this was not planned. It was just to well choregraphed. For that many girls to just happen to be at a house, camera ready, is to coincidental to me to not be a planned attack.

Just as you feel it is wrong for Mercades to be called names, I extend the same courtesy to this boy Jake and his mother. To many people would have to be lying, corrupt and out to get this family for this story to make sense to me.

I would look into Tampa a little more before moving down here. I believe they have a high crime rate. Check statistics as I am not positive. However, we do have many other lovely places to choose from. Although, it seems like a lot of bad cases all around have occured in Florida lately. Wow, it scares me to turn on the t.v. lately. When I see Nancy Grace talking about a new case I find myself saying please don’t let it be Florida. lol, sort of.
gn and I hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving.

Reply
November 28, 2008

GregS

I am also worried about what teenagers will come away with if they are reading these posts. How will they ever learn to trust police or people in authority if they are to believe this was all a big conspiracy.

Amyv I assume that your post on Jake was addressed to me. I’ll start by responding to the paragraph above, teens already don’t trust authority. They learn this in school. I was a teen who had a hatred for authority, I never was able to trust authority as a teenager and I still don’t trust authority today.

The only way teens will trust the police is if they see justice which is swift and consistent. When a teen has one of their friends go to adult prison for selling drugs, but then they see this brutal beating which might result in a slap on the wrist, it’s precisely the lack of consistent punishment for violent crimes that young people don’t trust authority and their elders.

It doesn’t help when elders send mixed messages. They tell teens like Victoria to turn the other cheek, to go to the cops for help, to “snitch”, to trust authority to protect them. So these kids try the non-violent road up until the point where they go to authority and authority tells them “handle it yourself.”, then they learn to distrust authority.

The truth is you are your own best authority, and while I’d want to live in a world where we could go to others and be guaranteed justice and have it be consistent, we see a pattern in the justice system which is completely unfair. We see lots of black and brown boys spending decades in prison for many non violent offenses. I don’t think just black and brown boys fear authority, ALL boys tend to fear authority on some level because when boys get beat up as a kid there is nobody to go to for help, nobody to turn to, nobody to save them, they are to handle their business and do whatever is necessary to provide for their own security, and this attitude extends into adulthood where the typical man is going to prefer to either buy a gun to protect his family and himself, or become the cop and protect and serve, it’s difficult to trust the cops when the cops can’t keep you safe.

And about Jake, I made the comment that he looks like a cowboy type, he had a cowboy hat on and his Myspace seemed obsessed with his image of being this tough guy, but then he goes and files a restraining order on a girl because he’s afraid of being jumped? I can understand that he could fear Mercades, perhaps the threat were real, but he didn’t actually get jumped so I don’t feel like he’s a victim. What damage has Mercades actually done to him besides scare him?

I don’t have enough information on that case to know for sure he’s a victim. Has Mercades been convicted of stalking or is this just a he said she said case? I’m not taking this case for granted, it’s a stain on the reputation of Mercades, but it’s theres not enough information available for me to take either side in that.

Reply
November 28, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv: Apparently you are unaware of the law. First off I am not a law official that everyone and thier brother believes, also I never went on TV and said this mother neeeded to put down the bottle. Sorry, but I am not held up to the same standars of law as an official. But yea, thanks for your imput as usual. )

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November 28, 2008

christina garcia

One more thing Smarty Pants…if you had took the time to research the background on all of this, Jake the Snake wasn’t allowed back in my house, the jerk isn’t 18 yet, maybe you would chance going to jail and leave your at the time 6 year old but not me, not when my daughter chose to stay with the guy. I had to make a decision when she begged me not to call the cops, she did say she would stop seeing him, but the devil moved his way back into her life.He really never came here anyway, even from the beginning because I knew how he was from the first time I saw him ( mother’s intution or just God’s judgement) I take everything you say with a grain of salt and you know? Because people who are so quick to say ” Ooh, I would’ve done this or I would’ve done that” usually are just the ones that end up not doing anything. I’m not a talker, nobody knows how they would respond unless they’ve been where I am.

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November 28, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv:
ou said, Just as their has been much concern about people threatening to, excuse me, kick these girls a**. I you read why the law suit was filed, part of it was because it put this girl in danger. But, nothing has happened to her. So, the suit has no merit if we go by this philosophy. I hope I am making sense here I am very tired.

So, one of these sickos that placed threat deaths on my family had to have followed through on them before I file for lawsuit? Wow…you have alot to learn. First of all, my starting the lawsuit put a RED FLAG..” THIS MAMMA ISN’T PLAYING”

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November 28, 2008

christina garcia

you within a lawsuit like this the plaintiff is asking basicly a nice way to Shut the hell up. And of course he continued provoking a notice of default. It wasn’t just as simple as throwing a piece of paper at him saying hey I’m just going to get some money. My family has been through hell, and no I don’t blame my daughter for what has happened because if it wasn’t for the sheriff my kid would’ve been dealt with according to her action and involvment or lack thereof.

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November 28, 2008

Anonymous

I unfortunately live in Polk County FL. I think this B**** needs to get beat down like Victoria did. She’s just a poor loser looking to make this all about her. (and maybe her daughter) Why not try to rake in some cash using this whole thing, then maybe, just maybe, they won’t be considered “White Trash” anymore…. (Like that would help)

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Anonymous only a bad person condones and justifies violence against a non violent person.

It doesn’t matter if she wants to make money, if shes not violent she has a right to. If her daughter is not violent she ought to be left alone.

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November 28, 2008

christina garcia

HaHa the only bad names I have ever been called here in my home town is Snob and Yuppy….white trash? Obviously this person doesn’t know my family )

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November 28, 2008

Phil

Amy agreeing with you again i have read all the arrest reports ,victim”s statements watched the 2 tapes too many times .I still get sick and angry when I watch them . The amount of violence and humiliation intended and directed at victoria was horific ..All these thugs had a role in this Brit h and April the goons , Brit {spielberg } Mayes the camera work . Who can forget “just 17 seconds make it good” or making sure the lighting was just right ,Mercades letting them use her house and suppling transportation also just as important making sure nothing on the movie set got damaged “Watch the shelf “.Then of course we hear that the excuse that this was said becuse she was concerned about her Papa’s ashes .This concern miracously helped her overcome her “fear” of Brit H to voice her concern about the shelf or the ashes getting damaged .If she could raise her voice to say this then if she was truley concerned about Victoria then she should of tried to put a stop to it .Because at this time Victoria was getting pretty damaged . Glad the shelf survived because then her Mom would have been really upset at her . . Gompertz I like the way you can use logic to argue a point but when you thought the ashes thing somehow made that statement reasonable I thought it troublesome when you usally work these things out on your own. watch that part of the tape again . There is no fear in Mercades ‘s voice she could have as easily been saying “hit her by the door” . “hit her by the door “.
And of course if Victoria came up with any reason what so ever as to why this brutality should end then then Kayla and Mecades and the rest of this gang of thugs made sure that
thier voices of encouragement were heard .They were all totally disgusting.

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November 28, 2008

Electronica

ppl i answered some stuff like how to punish april on the other blog about the plea offers. ill answer more tomorrow but i cant now i really have to go to bed. gn.

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November 28, 2008

Amyv

Oh Christinia -smarty pants lol. What grade are you in? The bottom line is sweet heart your daughter was invovled. She knew what was going to happen. All of these girls did.

I can see by your post that you think you are quite a toughie. This Mama isn’t playing and your comment about regretting the day he messed with Christina Garcia. Good God get over yourself.

Yes, I most certainly can say what I would do and what I would not. I would concentrate on my daughter. Stop bragging on myself. Stop trying to look like a bad a**. (bad example for children you know). Oh, thats right you really don’t have a clue.

I don’t think anyone can accuse you of being held up to any standard at this point as you have sunk about as low as you can go.

I am 100% certain I would not allow threats against a 7 or 8 year old daughter. So don’t blame your older daughter for talking you out of calling the police on that one. Who is the mother here? Death threat by a teenage boy to a small child absolutely call the police. 911 would be the number I would have used. Where was your mothers intuition on this one. Out to lunch. You didn’t do a thing to protect your younger daughter. But, condemn the sheriffs department for dismissing death threats against your older one. Pot calling the kettle black.

I don’t think death threats should be acceptable in any situation. period. Not for adults and not for children. If this boy truely did this than you failed as a mother to protect her by not having him arrested.

You are all about the money and your fifteen minutes of fame which you are soaking up every chance you get. Oh, and I am sure that the sheriff and others involved are just shaking in their boots because big, bad Christina is sueing.

Once again get over yourself. Your daughter does hold responsibility in what happened to Victoria. So stop being so sure of yourself. I doubt your lawsuit with the sheriff will gain you any money, it will only continue to make you look like a money hungry person.

You play on peoples sympathy for you to the point of nausea. Some of these people on here are kind hearted enough to fall for this. The melodrama of your comments about being in a casket, being so sick you are coughing and refusing medication from the doctor who is sure this will put you in an early grave. Drama Queen.

When you don’t gain anything from this, no book profits, no monetary rewards you will have these people feeling sorry. Sorry they were ever conned into believing you are in any way shape or form a victim. Because you are not.

You feel more sorry for yourself than your daughter. We here a little from you about her but, much more about yourself. Now go lay down before you get the vapors.

With your college degrees, you should be able to pay off the attorney your daughter needs to defend her against the crimes she has commited. Oh and the loan shark (once again poor christinia) your borrowed money from.

Just curious, what was your job again. Selling sex toys? What kiind of degree does that require. I did not see that court being offered at my college. Yuppy, oh my goodness please.

Once again God bless Victoria and her familly especially during the holidays. May a speed trial bring closure to this family who truely deserves it.

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November 28, 2008

Amyv

Hello Phil – Welcome to the lets feel sorry for Christina club. lol

Reply
November 28, 2008

gompertz

Phil, hard to know where to begin, so I’ll just start somewhere…

I do think the case of Mercades is different from the others. There is no excuse for the violence, no interpretation is necessary. Even without the evidence of the video, if you have the evidence of a victim who is beaten like that, you have a crime and those responsible need to be punished, and correction can come later, if correction is possible.
As for what the video shows about Mercades, what she says and how she says it. First I don’t remember referring to the thing about the father’s ashes, I remember reading that and I let it pass with no comment, because to discuss that would take us in other directions. Now, I do recall using expressions like “she had a moment of weakness”, and that might be misleading. I think she showed weakness and bad judgment, but “moment” is not accurate, is it? I don’t think her behavior on the video says, “Geee, I would love to help my friend but here these big brutal girls…” I think that she was undergoing some very difficult times for a while, weeks or months, and that took her further and further from what she knew was right. She had problems relating to the BF, and I’m willing to wait for more evidence, like the kind that would stand up in court, to show that it was severe trouble. And when Christina says that evidence is there and it will be presented at the proper time, I believe her.

You are right that the evidence you see in the video does not make Mercades look good, and nobody has said that her behavior there was right, and nobody has said that it was a slight matter. There is also the news that she had some sort of falling out with Victoria, and that appears to have been a continuing disagreement. So again, things had been deteriorating for Mercades for a while. Losing her BF, whom she seems to have been very attached to, having troubles with her friend Victoria, and having a miscarriage, these are things that can cause a young girl to become disoriented. Enough, I think, to attract her to this gang of bullies. so we do have a lot of “maybes” and that’s not enough to convict anyone. We don’t know why some people take this kind of thing harder than others. I was impressed with the grandmother’s description of Mercades’ love of animals, how she took care of sick rabbits and dogs. That to me is the sign of a sensitive person, and sometimes the more sensitive you are the worse you handle adversity,

Yes, I think that Mercades showed weakness, and to be accurate it was more then just a brief moment. She had been going down that road for a while, and by the time this thing happened she was no longer resisting it. That is how I interpret her sitting there and looking comfortable. Maybe by that time she had become too comfortable in the company of her tough new friends. But it still doesn’t make her a thug or a bad person. I see her as a good person who made a bad decision, not just someone paralyzed with fear at that moment. I also believe that this terrible thing was enough to make her realize that the path she was on was wrong and that she feels the bitter pain of having let her friend down. And that is something she is working to correct. How do I know this? Let’s just say I have faith in a person’s ability to learn from their mistakes.

Now here is the part I have the most trouble getting across. I know of course that Victoria is the real victim. I wish I could make everyone understand that by supporting Mercades I am also supporting Victoria. I see them both as good people, peaceful and kind, and it makes sense that they would be friends. But things went wrong, as they often do, and these days life is much more complicated than in the 50’s and early 60’s when I was their age, and young people have a lot of pressures I didn’t have back then. So for all of them I hope they can get past this, and also those who did this brutal beating, I wish them well. What would be my dream? That they all became reconciled and took up yoga and meditation and eastern philosophy. Yes, I can dream, but I still think it is alright todream if you also stay firmly rooted in reality.

It seems to me that you are honestly looking for truth and justice like Amy and Electronica, and the others who blog here. I have tried to answer some of the concerns you expressed, and I suppose you have other concerns which I misunderstood and didn’t address. But, that’s okay. You know I always argue with Amy, but I agree with her more than you might think. It’s just that the things we disagree about take up most of the discussion. Well now I have to disappear for awhile.gn

Reply
November 28, 2008

GregS

Phil so what is an appropriate punishment?
Especially for April Cooper?

I think everyone agrees that BH should go to adult prison as she’s an adult.

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Amyv why blame Christina for the sins of her daughter?

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November 28, 2008

GregS

Gomp Mercades can’t be all bad. She begged her family to take Victoria in when Victoria was homeless, so we at least know she is capable of doing as much good as she is bad.

Of the girls involved, Mercades and Kayla seem to be the most capable of changing for the better. I don’t really feel very confident that BH can change, and April Cooper is questionable as well because if she has a good side we haven’t seen even glimpses of it.That’s the reason why people decided not to go so hard on Mercades.

Mercades still must be punished, those are the rules, but is she the mastermind? I really doubt that.

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November 28, 2008

GregS

So once again Amyv, Gomp, everyone, what punishment would be appropriate for Mercades?

How much jailtime? How much probation?

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November 28, 2008

gompertz

I had a feeling I had to check in one more time. Greg, I have said all the time I think Mercades is a good person who made a mistake. What do I think is an appropriate punishment for Mercades? Probably something like house arrest for a month or two, probation, a bit of community service, but that’s it. No jail for sure. i think Mercades is a good person and the pain she feels for her wrong choice and how it hurt her friend is the real punishment. I have the feeling she will put her emotional troubles and bad choices behind her and do a lot of good things. A lot more to say but now I really really have to sleeeeep. gn

Reply
November 29, 2008

Phil

It’s hard for me to come up with approiate punishment in this case . They are or were teenager’s at the time of the assult . I also do not have the experience to see how this assult stacks up against others .However I will certanly give my unqualified opinion Brit H
6 to 8 years. April 4to 5 yers because she was 14 others that were older should take more responsibility . Brit to me is the hardest although she does not do as much phyisical damage by being the main camera person she is just as guilty as Brit H and and April and the fact of her age at the time and her absolute enjoyment in the proceedings also 6 to 8 years .Kayla 1 to 2 years she had no power to stop this .I think Victoria would have received the same punishment wihout or without her screaming however she still has a price to society pay. . I do not at all believe “the I was afraid of Brit H excuse of Mercades and Kayla. Mercades was the one with the real power to stop this so when she did not exercise this power she became legally responsible .This makes her guilty of ll the accessorie complaints . She texted Victoria ‘ If you don’t change your attitude then Brit H is going to beat you and I Am NOT GOING TO STOP IT, . She shows she understands she has the power to stop this . You notice that Brit H and April are not at all worried that Mecades might have a problem with carrying out these crimes in her house.Proven again when She says okay guys enough I have to pick up Nana, and thats when the assult ended again no fear just deciding to exercise her power to end this .This is why Iwould sentence her to 4 to 5 years .Scince the defence has dragged this out and has gone after the only true victim sentences to start after convictions.

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November 29, 2008

Navigator

Sorry, was out of town for the holiday!

I agree with Phil, but add many years of community service after release and I will be happy.

Gomp: you are so snowed by Garcia you can’t even see the light… you are a lost cause.

Garcia: NO ONE considers you a yuppie or a snob – you misunderstood… they where saying frumpy and a slob… Get real… you have no respect in this entire state, nor the surrounding Lakeland area!! That is just laughable!

Amy, Again, I agree with you…

Greg… You need to read the statements from the police reports on Mercedes and Kayla… they are not the “most capable of changing for the better” THAT is laughable as well. These two conspired together to get their story straight… you can tell because both statements are almost exactly alike… to perfect. THESE PEOPLE ARE MUNIPULATORS! Do not forget that.

Like I have said before – after what ever jail time these poor excuses get… they all need to be on a community service for 10 years traveling from school to school telling the story and how it screwed up their lives forever… to discourage future generations from commiting such acts… so they know the consequences first hand.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Amyv

GregS – I am not blaming the mother for the sins of the daughter. I am blaming the mother for many of the remarks she has made about the victim. Although subtle, the marks are written in a way she can slightly back off but, the suggestion about Victoria is already there.

I will go back sometime this weekend and cut and paste some of these remarks and see how you and gompertz interpret them. I say gompertz because we do disagree on the intent of this mother.

I would have to believe that their are so many people out to get her and her daughter it is beyond reason. Unless they were some of the most hated people in the U.S. It just does not add up to me. They were not celebrities before this crime. Nor, where they on Americas most wanted list. So, why would all of these people
want to go after them. Once, again it does not add up to me.

As to the comment I made about teenagers and trusting authority, that was not directed soley at you. It was directed at many remarks made by different people on this post about just how corrupt the police and justice department are.
Yes, I believe their are good cops and bad just as in every situation in life. But, if they learn to distrust all people in authority, who will they turn to if they are in trouble?

As to what I feel is an appropriate punishment for Mercades, I feel at this point we have all stated what we think each of these girls should be punished with. At this point I will just say leave it up to the courts. They have more evidence than we do. So, withouth all of the facts, it will be up to them to make this decision.

Althouh Mercades never hit Victoria, assault and battery is not her only charge. Kidnapping and tampering with a witness are also included. Since she was at her house with these girls when Victoria was held against her will she is just as guilty as the rest of them on that one. She did drive Victoria to CVS after she was forced into the car. She is guilty of that. Tampering with a witness, she was present during the further threats to Victoria after the beating.

So, although some may state she is a non-violent person that is not the only issue here. I think anyone who can sit their and watch someone get beaten so severely, watched it get taped and provide the home this crime was commited in, does seem to show some kind of violent tendancies to say the least. Also, watching the tape with all 8 of these teenagers right after the beating. I can not come to the same conclusion of non-violence as others do.

Gompertz – I am an animal lover myself. As a matter of fact I know some people who love animals more than human beings. If Mercades could have just shown 1/10 of the compassion she has for animals to Victoria she would not be in the situation she is in now.

This commented not directed at just one person – All of these girls did make some very unwise decisions to say the least. We all seem to agree that two of the girls showed much more violence towards Victoria than the rest. However, everyone of them played a part in this.

A scenario would be if six teenage boys were in a house an a girl was raped. Two of the boys did not touch the girl but stood by and watched. Does this make them any less guilty of a crime than the ones that did it.

Perhaps the charges for some should have been accomplises to some of these acts. I also believe false imprisonment should have been charged in this case. However, these two charges were not brought against these girls.

As for Kayla. I do believe this girl showed a lot or rage and anger. Absolutely no remorse shown from this one and added further to the severe mentaly cruelty shown towards this girl. It keeps being repeated by Garcia that Kayla never hit the girl. Victoria says she did and so did Mayes (who is also a very other sickening disturbing factor). So, either I choose to believe that Victoria lied or I choose to believe the accused. So if the case is to be made for non-violent, I would say that would be Mercades and Cara. Although, I have already stated I don’t believe that of either one of them.

I blame Mercades and Mercades alone for her behavior. I believe she was old enough to make a choose. I do however after seeing the defense her mother has come up with for her, wander if she has a chance of ever determining right from wrong.

Mercades mother has stated on several occasions her daughter is ready to take her punishment. However, she will then state that Mercades caused no harm to Victoria except being a bad friend and in her words a ‘coward’.

Well lets all agree at this point that anything we say on this blog is based on our own personal opinions as to what the punishment for each and every girl.

I would like to throw this one out to everyone. We all find the sounds Mayes was making on the video disturbing and extremely disgusting. Not much has been said about her punishment for this as she was not caught on the tape beating the victim. Although, just like Kayla Victoria stated she did hit her. So, if you believe their is hope for Kayla what are your thoughts on Mayes?

Reply
November 29, 2008

Navigator

Greg… one more thing… you asked Amy why she should blame Christina for the sins of her daughter…. lol.

The apple does not fall far from the tree. She is the REASON her daughter is so screwed up. If she would have been in her daughters life, and been a good mother, Mercedes would have known better than to treat friends this way or think that she could get away with such a horrible thing. Since the beginning of this Christina has only taught her daughter to try as hard as possible to get out of what ever you do wrong, even if you have to blam the victim. Christina got on national news and stated that Tori should have been able to back it up…WHAT! I thought we were going to here from the parents that were just disgusted with the actions of thier kids and would not be able to apologize enough for their horrible behavior. I WOULD BE SO EMBARESSED as a parent, I wouldn’t even be able to show my face. So, YES this women deserves to take blame for her daughters actions… she has chosen that position and chosen to be a child along with her daughter instead of a parent!

Reply
November 29, 2008

Navigator

Amy… as stated before…. jailtime for all at the least 1 year and 10 years community service for all involved. Mays doesn’t think she was so funny anymore… lol.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Electronica

phil idk if kayla hit tori or didnt i just know she didnt hit her on the vid. she was real angry and britti was like there to protect her and prolly was tempting her but she still didnt hit tori.

amy i dont know where im taking the word of one girl over the word of tori. can you pls tell me?

and amy i dont know what things your talking about. could you just tell me exactly what you mean? what things are disputed by the victim? and you mean tori or mercs bf? im not upset i just dont know what to say when i dont know what you mean.

and amy how am i bashing mercs bf? i dont think i even said anything about him here all i said here was mercs mom doesnt really know if merc asked tori to help her break up her ex bf with his new gf.

and amy i like your lie detectors idea. but i dont think the persecution would like it. they didnt even talk to all the girls! i dont think they wanne know the truth. i mean the cops didnt even talk to any of the girls at all thats not normal. and it took like three months for the persecution to talk to cara and kayla. and no one else so far! i think thats because they dont wanne let them tell their side i mean why they keep the girls and only the girls from talking to anyone thats not normal. if theyd allow them to take a lie detector test maybe it would prove the cops lied even more than we know they lied and it would be real bad for their image. and maybe it would show toris been wrong about even more stuff and it would be bad for her too. but i think truth is important and im all for lie detector tests just have the cops take them too theyd refuse i bet.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Phil

The above opinion takes into account making Victoria get in the car , showing the tape to other perople thus increasing Victoria’s humiliation and Mercades breaking the agreement with the legal system with the charges from her boyfriend but even without this I would probally think the same . Anything less I do think will be a deterent to the next bunch of thugs who might even be considering this something as reprehensible as this.

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

I think a lot of the disagreements I have with the people here arise from the fact that my whole purpose in blogging is different from theirs. So what is my purpose? When I first started blogging four months ago, this case was already almost four months old, and I followed the discussions on this and other blogs to the point where I felt everything that could be said had already been said, with the material available. How many more times do I have to be invited to look at the video to see the same thing I’ve seen before? If the engineers provide better sound and visual enhancement, that is welcome, but somehow they haven’t got around to it yet.

People asked each other who to blame, the parents, society, the internet, but it wasn’t until some started to take a different perspective that I decided to join the discussion. My purpose in blogging was not to put in my two cents about who hit whom and how hard but to ask what we as a society can do about the appalling descent into darkness that the video showed. So I asked myself what would blogging do for me and what could my contribution do to solve those larger problems. I never saw myself as a judge or jury because I have a pretty clear idea of what my role is here and being a substitute for the legal process is not part of my intention.

For my part, I remember how the video shocked me. I was angry, but then I get angry a lot at what I see on the TV news. Most of these stories are things none of us can change. But I felt that here was a case where people could participate and make useful contributions. Personally I saw it as an opportunity to deal with my own extreme anger, not by playing the tape over and over(because that only leads to more anger) but by seeking a different perspective. So that means I base my disagreement with some people here not on a different interpretation of the facts but on our having different motives. If by this time anyone has read my blogs and still doesn’t know where I am coming from, then I suggest it is they, and not I, who are the “lost cause.” It all depends on what cause we are talking about. As for Navigator who unjustly accused me of having ulterior motives and chose to misinterpret my intentions, there is nothing I can say since you will only poison the discussion with more misinterpretations and personal attacks.

Amy, you really think there is a “feel sorry for Christina” club? I think you are trying to start a “let’s gang up on Christina” club. I just don’t see that this is helpful. And since I believe you are a good person who wants to help, I just think need to examine your own motives because you seem to be getting a bit too involved from an emotional point of view. And since I know a little about becoming emotional, and even obsessed with situations, I see you taking a direction that I see as potentially harmful, and the harm will not be to Christina.

Take for example the suggestion of some sort of moral equivalence between attacking Jake and his grandmother and attacking Mercades and her mother. I really don’t think that one off-hand comment made on this forum about Jake’s grandmother compares to all the damaging statements made about Mercades and her mother. Could Jake or his grandmother claim they have been hurt by the references made here? IMHO that’s the case that would be laughed out of court. Anyway, those who find the term “snake” so offensive, maybe a more PC term could be used, like Jake the Herpetologically Challenged or maybe Jake the Differently Evolved. No, I’m not trying to make light of people’s honest concerns.

Also, what you and Electronica have said about the need to be careful what we say here, I do listen and learn from you, because I am never too old to learn. There is a site, I forgot the name where they report on the number of people who visit here, and break down the demographics, and I was surprised to see how many very young people visit this site. So keeping the language clean is one thing. Also I want to say that in my experience most cops and also firemen are decent and honest, at least in the big eastern cities. However, I don’t advise children to trust anyone completely. Just don’t assume all cops are bad and at the same time be careful, because some cops are really bad. And then there is the problem of people who pretend to be cops or other authority figures for nefarious purposes. So everyone must learn to use their own judgment, and that includes children.

A lot more to say but just one more aspect of my attitude here, because I think it clears up confusion to show how I react to things. So take my reaction to April Cooper’s support page. Yes, there were times when I felt such anger and I am still not over it, why should I be over it? But I was not angry about her family showing support like that. I didn’t like the idea of raising money if the purpose was to pay for one of those high-priced defense attorneys, but showing support for a family member in trouble didn’t bother me. I thought it appropriate that some people wrote thoughtful messages and some made poems. I didn’t like it that some used the page to lecture and condemn her, there is plenty of opportunity for that but not on a support page. I also found it inappropriate that someone, apparently a young man, offered support by congratulating her for what she did, and added “keep fighting for the respect.” That is the kind of support that she does not need.

So, what kind of support do we show Victoria? I ask again, how does attacking Christina help Victoria? All of us, myself included, serve our own purposes by giving our opinions. I just want to make it clear that a lot of what I say is not about giving an opinion but about offering ways to improve our lives by getting beyond anger and I have already indicated some of these ways many times. If that is not understood you won’t understand my attitude to Mercades and her mother, and you will feel outraged that I am not joining in with bashing them and marching in lockstep with you. Opinions are one thing, solutions are another. My solution involves creating a space where people can find higher ground, and that the victim and the perpetrators can all get beyond the limitations of a society that offers no hope and find peace and fulfillment on a spiritual level. That is why I do not join in these useless attacks and condemnations.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I am at work so I dont have a lot of time to go back through my post. I dont think my comment about the exboyfriend was directed at you. This computer is a piece of garbage and it is realy hard to scroll on. But, I will look later.

As far as taking one girls word over the other please just look over your last post. You say Kayla didn’t hit Victoria. Victoria says she did.
Althouth, the parts of the video we have been shown do not show this action we know this is not the entire ordeal. Therefore, one girls word is being taken over the other.

In this case I have to go back to reasoning. I am sure Victoria had to have a lot of hatred towards these girls directly after the beating. She could have said they all hit her. But, she specifially said Mercades and Cara did not. That is a truely honest person.

I also, have to look at who has more to gain. Kayla of course. She believes this will lighten her sentence. And, why would Victoria tell the truth about two and lie about one. I just does not add up to me. And, I have stated several times I will take the victims word over the defendants anyday.

As for the lie detector tests, I dont believe it would be the prosecutors not wanting them. Tha t would be the lawyers for these girls. Their is no way they would ever let that happen.

I would like to see lie netectors given to all of these girls. Although I think it would be unfair for the victim. To many different versions. I will get back to you late on my computer this one is driving me crazy.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Navigator

Gomp: you have shown over and over again with all of your blogs that you find some favor with Mercedes and Christina so therefore you are snowed by this munipulative person and are now a lost cause. I have been blogging about this case from day ONE… had to take a break at one point for a personal matter… but always kept up. I began to get disappointed in the comments here when all were feeling sorry for the mother and daughter who caused this situation to begin with. It is SICKENING and I believe that SOMEONE needs to get emothional over this again and get people to understand that this is not about being NICE to the person who raised the girl who was the reason all those girls where in that house and involved in this to begin with. I DO NOT feel sorry for her or her daughter and believe that NO ONE SHOULD. Mercedes put herself in the situation… she deserves to go down with all the rest. Her mother chose to raise her daughter in this manner and she, also , should go down with the rest. Period!

Now if that is to “emotional” for ya… then go blog somewhere else!!

Reply
November 29, 2008

Garland

Gompertz said:

(Take my reaction to April Cooper&rsquos support page. Yes, there were times when I felt such anger and I am still not over it, why should I be over it? But I was not angry about her family showing support like that. I didn&rsquot like the idea of raising money if the purpose was to pay for one of those high-priced defense attorneys, but showing support for a family member in trouble didn&rsquot bother me. I thought it appropriate that some people wrote thoughtful messages and some made poems. I didn&rsquot like it that some used the page to lecture and condemn her, there is plenty of opportunity for that but not on a support page. I also found it inappropriate that someone, apparently a young man, offered support by congratulating her for what she did, and added &ldquokeep fighting for the respect.&rdquo That is the kind of support that she does not need.)

Exactly. While I don’t mind them having a support page for their daughter as well, I find it sickening for them to be bashing Victoria &amp getting all excited that her past &amp personal lifestyle will be played out on that same support page earlier, thanks to April’s attorney. Plus I do agree with you that this young man shouldn’t exactly be congradulating April for what she did. Shameful, &amp cowardly. This family will get theirs one day.

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Navigator, if you (or is it ya) think you are accomplishing your aim, I am sorry to disappoint you. No, you will not succeed in running me off this blog and all you are doing is aggravating yourself for nothing. I chuckle to myself as I imagine you ranting and pounding on the keys angrily while making silly accusations that wildly miss their mark. So go ahead, knock yourself out, I’ll still be here. Peace and Love.

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS

She is the REASON her daughter is so screwed up. If she would

have been in her daughters life, and been a good mother,

Mercedes would have known better than to treat friends this way

or think that she could get away with such a horrible thing.

You don’t know that. You don’t know for a fact that Christina

was not in Mercades life. The Christina I’ve been observing and

communicating with is not that kinda mother at all, you can see

her passion in her posts whether you agree with what shes saying

or not. She’s fighting for her daughter’s reputation, and she

said in public that her daughter was morally wrong. In a

phonecall to fox news,I heard her tone of voice when her

daughter was attacked by the host. I’d say Christina tried her

best.

It really doesnt matter how good your parents are, your parents

cannot protect you from making mistakes. It seems that Mercades

was not being sheltered, but then again neither way I and

neither are a lot of people, it does not mean that because the

daughter or child is naive and can’t judge character that you

can blame the mother. Parents cannot teach children to judge

character and if you are going to blame Mercades parents, you’d

also have to blame Victorias parents for her behavior and I

think thats just wrong. Mercades was 17, there was not much

Christina could have done to protect her at that point.The main

difference between people who go to prison and the people who

don’t are the network of friends they have. I really can’t blame

Mercades mother for this, and sure perhaps Mercades couldn’t

judge character but she’s young, this mistake is very common, so

common that I’d say all but the most sheltered people have made

this sorta mistake.

“Christina got on national news and stated that Tori should have been able to back it up”

Well now she’s here. How about we give her an informal interview and ask her ourselves what she meant by that?

Christina: What did you mean when you said that statement? And are you willing to apologize or take back your words or do you stand by that statement?

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Garland, on the support page they did say that they don’t approve of what she did, and that is a good first step, right? LOL
Also, what if I did want to show my “support” by sending them money . Didn’t it say I would have to be listed as a friend? Me being listed as a friend of a girl that young is kind of creepy, isn’t it?

Oh well, I guess it’s no more creepy than the accusation that I am somehow involved with two other young women from that area. And I will be watching to see just how far someone might decide to go with that sort of truly creepy allegation.

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS

Nav, in specific you cannot blame a parent for what a 17 year old does. Mercades was old enough to get a job and make her own money, she had a car, she would be too old to be spanked even if spanking were still legal. Shes practically an adult.

Mercades was immoral, if you are going to blame someone for the crime, blame the criminal, don’t blame Myspace, don’t blame TV, don’t blame the parents, yes parents take some of the blame but the government has taken all the control away from parents, how about we blame the government too?

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS

Nav about Mercades and Christina, can we all agree that Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper are the most dangerous of the bunch and not Mercades and Christina? I don’t really think Christina is even involved besides being Mercades mother.

I don’t believe the conspiracy theory offered by the Sheriff about the two guys guarding the door and Mercades being the mastermind. If they lied about that it ruins their credibility and this is why many have now started to at least consider Christina’s side of the story. But just for the record I never stated that I believe everything Christina says, I think we should check everything she says thoroughly before we decide.

Some of what she has said has been more accurate than what the media and the police were saying, as a result we now know we cannot trust the police or the media so it only leaves Christina as a source of information, and if we cannot trust Christina then where are we going to get our information from?

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS

All of the parents, and families of the suspects in this case should receive immunity. Christina should be free to post here and be treated with respect.

It’s unprofessional and uncivilized to attack Christina for posting. If you don’t agree with what she has to say, you can disagree, but you don’t have to get personal and declare her a bad parent, or a bad person, or “white trash”.

Let’s try to keep it civil and disagree like adults.
If you disagree with Christina she’s around, ask her questions yourself, you’ll get better answers if you ask her politely than if you attack.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Garland

Gompertz wrote:

(Garland, on the support page they did say that they don&rsquot approve of what she did, and that is a good first step, right? LOL
Also, what if I did want to show my &ldquosupport&rdquo by sending them money? Didn&rsquot it say I would have to be listed as a friend? Me being listed as a friend of a girl that young is kind of creepy, isn&rsquot it?

Oh well, I guess it&rsquos no more creepy than the accusation that I am somehow involved with two other young women from that area. And I will be watching to see just how far someone might decide to go with that sort of truly creepy allegation.)

I agree with you, gomp, that they said that they don’t approve of what her daughter did, &amp that IS a good first step. Plus I also agree that it is kind of creepy to be friends with someone who took part (being involved) of the situation. I’m certainly not accusing you of being involved with them, that’s your business, not mine. There are some people that can be so cold hearted nowadays.

To Greg, I can see where Amy’s coming from. Perhaps that she has a gut feeling within Christina her intuition. Plus I don’t exactly think that Victoria’s parents should be blamed for anything, as they did everything in their power to help out Victoria. Plus Victoria herself isn’t exactly a bad person at all, she just has some issues to deal with personally. I don’t know if you were giving out an examply by that statement, but that’s just me.

To Amy: if you could, do you think you can E-mail me at princeofjoyness@hotmail.com? I have some questions that I want to ask you. Thanks!

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Garland, just letting you know I appreciate the vote of confidence, and for the record I have never been to Florida and I am not “involved” with anyone down there.

Also you mention the value of having a gut feeling, and I am a firm believer in gut feelings. I have tried to use logic in some of my blogs to make certain points, but I think logic has only limited value in deciding anything and we depend on gut feelings and intuition more than we know.

Reply
November 29, 2008

christina garcia

First off I will no longer respond to the posters that just like attacking me, calling me names without even having any experience with me at all besides here. I give information that I have through email to those who respect that I am a person and not just some ” slob” from the streets, I am much more than that. You say I talk more about myself huh? Why would I lay down everything about my kid here to someone who can’t even get past name calling and attacking me? No, I’d much rather just put myself out there so you can try and tear me down, but you know something? I’m made of some pretty strong stuff, and you don’t hurt me. I don’t know what you meant about me refusing medication from a doctor, but it doesn’t matter because honestly from here on out when I see your name I will just scroll right past you.

Christina got on national news and stated that Tori should have been able to back it up&rdquo

Well now she&rsquos here. How about we give her an informal interview and ask her ourselves what she meant by that?

Christina: What did you mean when you said that statement? And are you willing to apologize or take back your words or do you stand by that statement?

That comment has been so twisted it is very sad. I have posted before and after this I won’t respond to this question anymore, especially for someone like that other person.
What happened was first I was asked what do you think was going through Brittany’s mind at the time she was hitting her and all..My interview was recorded but was edited before the 11:00 news. I did say ” I just don’t understand why she would say those things if she didn’t have the nerve to back up what she was saying” I was very angry at the time for all the lies that The Sheriff was airing, them putting Mercades picture, address, and our family’s home number public and all before she was even charged as an adult. To this day I still don’t understand alot about the victim, why she told people she was going to kick thier asses and months of harrassing from Mercades’ computer, and why she chose to go back in the house after seeing the girls were there : ( I don’t get it, and I won’t sit here and pretend like I do. The only thing I can think of is and please don’t misunderstand this statement, sometimes girls and maybe boys after having such a crappy life, they start feeling like they are nothing just a piece of dirt, and they intentionally put thereselves in situations that will cause harm, they feel like they deserve it. I don’t thik she deserved it : ( come one now…The part ” if she didn’t have the nerve to back it up” well, I know I shouldn’t have worded things like that, and I have said I am sorry for that.
For those who respect who I am, you know my email, just keep in touch and I will let you know what I know, well to an extent, because my computer has been hacked, emails with evidence just being deleted and so on.

Reply
November 29, 2008

GregS

gompertz I disagree with you on the value of gut feelings. I think gut feelings result in greed, hatred, and of course the violence you see on the tape is a result of gut feelings. April Cooper attacked Victoria because of a gut feeling. She wasn’t thinking it through.

I think because gut feelings are often irrational and wrong, we should never rely on gut feelings when making serious decisions. Sure if it’s a game and lives aren’t at stake go with your gut, or if you just don’t have enough information to reason through it, but if you have the information and the time to reasonably analyze it, then this is what you must do because it’s the responsible thing to do.

Maybe I think this way because I was trained to be stoic, but I believe stoicism is the way.

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I figured you what disagree, and of course I don’t think gut feelings are the final arbiter. Amy has a gut feeling and I have a gut feeling about the same subject, and our gut feelings probably will lead to entirely different results, as we have seen. That’s because we have had different life experiences and that is where our feelings start. April had a gut feeling, too. Look at how she clenched her fist when Victoria started speaking, that is gut feeling. So she was conditioned to be that way by her own experiences.

Still, I think we can condition ourselves to rise above these feelings gradually. Those who see reason as a goal can train themselves to think rationally by regulating their feelings rather than just renouncing them. So when I said we are guided by gut feelings I think I was saying that this is the condition we find ourselves in, and we need to acknowledge it, or we will delude ourselves into thinking we are reasonable when we are really being emotional.. I think a lot of jurors and voters make bad decisions based on emotion while congratulating themselves on their supposed ability to be objective. How many voters in presidential elections really know the issues as well as they should?

Aristotle observed a long time ago that people are much more easily swayed by emotion than logic in making decisions. I think the same is true today, to our detriment. As for myself, I try to find a balance between feeling and reason in cases like this, where there is so much we cannot be sure of, at least not yet.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Navigator

Garcia wrote: “The only thing I can think of is and please don&rsquot misunderstand this statement, sometimes girls and maybe boys after having such a crappy life, they start feeling like they are nothing just a piece of dirt, and they intentionally put thereselves in situations that will cause harm, they feel like they deserve it.”

LOL… exactly – your daughter must fit into this catagory then too.

Greg: Christina’s influence on her daughter throughout her life – not just this moment – has caused her to be the way she is. Yes, her lack of parenting skills has influenced and is a cause of the current situation. If she was taught at a young age to respect others and treat others as though you would want to be treated, none of this would have happened today. and ….”and if we cannot trust Christina then where are we going to get our information from?” WOW what a joke… You are trusting to get information from the MOTHER OF THE ACUSSED!! HELLO!! You SHOULD NOT be trusting anything she says… all she cares about is getting her daughter off of charges against her – of course she will lie and try to make her daughter out to be some angel… but again… SHE IS THE MOTHER OF THE ACUSSED! I am sure the Charles Mansons mother would have doen the same if computers were available back then… this is laughable… really!

Gomp: you are a waist of my time. You obviously are so brain washed by this women you can not see clearly. She has doen the “poor me and my daughter” thing with you and you have fallen for it. Sad really… 🙁

Reply
November 29, 2008

Mark

Finally Navigator, I was beginning to think that the whole world is messed up. What everyone, except for you nav. is that it was videotaped. It was videotaped in her home. It was videotaped her sitting and watching. It was videotaped her yelling “watch the shelf” x 2. It was videotaped her getting beaten up. Folks…IT WAS VIDEOTAPED”. Now, i have been in lots of school fights, lots of party fights, etc, etc….never, i mean never has someone brought in a camera into the action. You mean to tell me, in all honesty that this was not planned??? Crap, they even requested more lighting because it was too dark for the camera. This was not set up????? Fellow people, fellow bloggers, all those with an IQ above 6, Miss Christina is playing with you. and I must say, you are doing a fantastic job. I would just love a dedicated edition of your book. How much are you going to make?? What did your publisher say? any calls from Hollywood yet. Yes?? well thats great. You are a true blue American…make money any way you can…even off your daughter. Good for you. I know your next blog…it will read something like…”I will not respond to people that bad-mouth me, the sheriff told lies, he is a bad man and I am strong blah, blah, blah….Yes, like every other criminal in this country, you claim the law is against you, everyone attacks you, why me, why me, I am strong.
Ahhhhh, I just love blogging….I feel so much better now.
Thank you all for listening.

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November 29, 2008

Mark

Nav. Funny, we were writting at the same time

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November 29, 2008

Navigator

Mark… appreciate the backup – only a few of us left in here that truly understand this was a crime with a real victim and the accused need to be punished, wether mommy believes they are angels or not. Stick around…

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November 29, 2008

Navigator

Well, hello. Welcome to the (what Amy calls) the ” let’s feel sorry for Christine club” … You will find that you will get called “emotional” because you stand up for the victim. I have no problem with that at all. I feel better standing up for what is right.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

First off this is a blog about Christine’s ridiculos law suit . All these blogs have these types of comments . As the mother of one of the accused she should expect that this is going to be the case if she choses to participate . If you read the Ledger blogs or Topix or any of the others many of the statements are very unflattering about both Christine and Mecades and the rest of the girls charged as well as at Victoria and her family .Her actions and statements are not above scorn this is not a debate club this is where people get called out for thier actions and words .
I think she has been trying to make money off this since the beginning . She has looked at this assult as her own personal cash cow . You all have the right to support her and encourage her to sue wright books or do whatever , But for the rest of us who find her snide remarks ,backhanded compliments and ridiculus excuses appalling then we too should be free to let her have it .

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November 29, 2008

Rainman

Phil said: “But for the rest of us who find her snide remarks ,backhanded compliments and ridiculus excuses appalling then we too should be free to let her have it .”

I read this forum primarily to hear Christina Garcia’s point-of-view and to learn new facts about the case. Much of the rest is just blather.

Few of the posters show even minimal concern for the victim’s privacy, even less concern for the assailant’s families, and zero concern about the possibility of excessive punishments that could be an injustice in and of themselves.

I encourage Ms. Garcia to continue with her informative updates and insights. She is in a unique position to help everyone better understand what is going on.

As far as sympathy goes, I find it difficult to read her posts without imagining being in her shoes someday, getting a phone call that my son or daughter has not made me proud and is now in deep trouble with the law. Hers is certainly an unenviable position.

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November 29, 2008

Scott

Deciding on charges and jail time for Kayla Hassall, Brittany Mayes and Mercades Nichols will not be easy because they did not pummel Tori like April Cooper and Brittni Hardcastle did. Why? Because how do you penalize Kayla for shooting of her mouth so much during the beating of Tori? I think Kayla’s yapping at a helpless Tori amped up Brittini to continue the beating of Tori even though she was tired and her left hand knuckles were bleeding. But how can Kayla’s culpability in this instance be measured? It’s not easy and it is a matter of opinion. As for Mayes how do you penalize her moaning in glee at Tori’s being assaulted? If it can be proven that Mayes sent Tori threatening emails liike Tori said she did then perhaps she can be charged for that. And although Mayes didn’t hit Tori alot she did hit Tori a few times according to Tori. As did Kayla according to Tori. As for Mercades, figuring out her sentece won’t be easy. She didn’t hit Tori but she played a role in allowing the assault to take place in her grandmother’s home. Then Mercades reportedly threatened Tori while taking her to CVS after the beating. Mercades is being charged with kidnapping. I think she should plea out and get on with her life. It sounds like she is open to this but who knows once the lawyers are involved. I’m all for giving these girls second chances but they must pay for their crimes first. All of their lives can head in the right direction after justice is served. They are all young enough to find the right path in life.

On a side note I’m impressed with Tori after seeing her 2 recent television interviews. I hope she’s as thoughtful and softspoken as she came accross during those interviews. And for Tori not wanting these girls to go to jail and make that public knowledge is very generous of her. Tori is extending an olive branch to these girls which is so nice of her. I just wish she got some kind reciprocity in return. But that doesn’t seem like it will happen.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

I agree that she has the right to post ,and this blog is more interesting because of it . I do not know if Mercades is good person or not .I just feel she is very responsibe for what happened and if her mother choses to share her points of views then she should expect these types of comments as well as those that support her but to get totally offended when some one rips her when she has done her share is a little much.I feel sorry for all the parents of all those invoved in this . These girls are not expendable thay have families and friends who love them and who will hopefully support them in thier time of need . I just really think that they have a huge debt to pay for what they did and when they pay this debt then we should help all of them be the best that they can be , Where it gets hard is when they hide behind Lawyers .legal loopholes and flimpsy excuses .

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Mark – Welcome back. Or I should say welcome to this forum. The blogging is going on so furiously now I literally find it almost impossible to keep up.

I seems we are all blogging at the same time. So lets start having a discussion that makes sense that includes emotions mixed with facts. I have asked repeatedly to have questioned answered from or about this mother that have gone unanswered and totally ignored.

Navigator – I completely agree with your comment to Greg and Garcia. However, I feel what you said to Gompertz maybe the wrong way to go about things. Gompertz does have a right to an opinion. Even though 99% of the time we disagree so telling Gompertz to blog somewhere else is not really up to anyone here. And only shows certain people that we are unable to tolerate positions except for pure hatred. However, once again believe me I think you hit the nail right on the head with this mother.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Amy ,Navigator and Mark even though I am new to this blog for whats it i worth I agree with you about the mom

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Phil, actually your statement is welcome as a voice of reason considering what preceded it. As you say, those who post here should expect to be subject to unflattering comments. “this is not a debate club this is where people get called out for their actions and words.”Well I think it can also be a debate of sorts for reasons I have been at pains to explain. Of course you are free to do as you wish, but don’t think I will let anyone else infringe upon my right to speak my own mind in my own way, and for those who lack the inclination or intelligence to follow what I have to say, too bad. I won’t change for you or dumb down my comments for you, whoever you may be. Now, Phil, I could tell from your first post that you are a very combative sort and that is okay, it takes all kinds. You go your way, I’ll go mine.

Navigator, I believe the word you were searching for is spelled w-a-s-t-e. I find it amusing that you congratulate yourself with the fact that you have been doing the same thing for eight months with the exact same fierce anger, and no new idea has ever flicker across your brain. Like your new friend you seem to think it is a mark of intelligence to be able to watch the video and see what is on it. The rest of us have already been there, and gone way past it. Amazingly you quote my own words to the effect that there is a real victim here as if it were something I had to learn. But you are wrong on so many levels that it is not worth the effort to try to untangle your confusions.

Yes, keep on making the same vicious allegations, it won’t help you. And you complain of getting called “emotional?” It was you who referred to yourself as “emotional”, you probably just forgot. And please try to remember this: No one here is “feeling sorry” for anyone. You only think that’s it because you are drowning in your own emotions and don’t know that there is anything beyond emotion.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Christina Garcia
Oct 24, 2008 at 10:44 am

To: Gregs

Yes I have many regrets on my own behalf, will I spill them all on here in public with so many people that hate me. No way! Someone who really is interested in our real lives, and not just getting in on the hype I would talk to them&hellipand I want to leave you with one thought..does anyone wonder why Gloria A left the Lindsay&rsquos case?”

This is just the first of many remarks that this mother makes. She says just enough of what people want to hear and then throws in a statement about why the VICTIMS lawyer left. Please give me an answer to what this remark was supposed to mean.

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Phil, just had to comment on your later post which I didn’t see, yes things are flying fast and furious. I appreciate what you said about the girls and their right to move on after they have paid their debt to society.
CAUTION: I am about to say something not unfavorable to Christina so those who are offended by that, be warned.
I don’t think she gets “totally offended when someone rips her.” If you have been following this discussion, you know she has responded in a civil way to constructive criticism and some that was not so constructive. But I think there is a difference between attacks you can respond to and those you can’t respond to. If someone has honest and vigorous views, fine. But how do you respond to someone who is motivated by nothing but hatred? Free and open exchange of what? Just insults?

Also I do try to respect the fact that this is a difficult time for the families of the accused, and I would be respectful of anyone who posts here, including the parents of the other girls. Respect does not mean agreement though.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Christine it’s hard to hate what and who you don’t know ,I hate what your daughter has done and I strongly disagree with your book and lawsuits and the the mean things that you have said in the past as you can disagree or hate me for my views .When I was 13 years old me and some friends and others teased bullied and intimidated an overweight special needs students . We made her 7th year of school a nightmare .Eventhough others did far worse then me my parents (especially my mother )would not let me escape my responsibility when she found out she marched me down to the principal and made me apoligise in front of her class . This poor girl’s best friend looked at me with such hatred as I cried in front of the class sputing out my apoligy .The young person who we abused gave me a hug . My mother made sure i knew that everytime i laughed at or supported my friends in thier endevour to inflict pain was no different then the deed , Bullies always need an audience and I thank my lucky stars that my mother held me to such a high standard I think if you had that same standard then both you and your daughter will be in a better place . It is never to late .

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I have always stated everyone has a right to their opinion. I will also not back down from mine. As for anger and emotion, I do not think any of us can say that we have not fallen back to these on several occassions. Yes that includes you and me.

Emotions are a big part of this case. Anger is a big part of this case. If not it would not be worth the energy to blog about.

I have always said my main reason for feeling strongly about this is I do have a teenage daughter. I want her and every other teenager to know that these acts will not continue to be unpunished. Mercades should be punished as harshly as the evidence proves.

I can not get past the fact that their is no way this is a coincidence that all of these girls were
gathered at this house at the same time. If Mercades was warning this girl not to go inside, she must have known something was going to happen. According to the mother Mercades told the victim the two girls she was supposedly bad mouthing were inside of the house. She told the victim the wanted they wanted to fight her. An Adult neighbor heard this entire conversation. All of this is according to this mother.

So logic tells me obviously Mercades knew they were in the house, failed to mention the other three, and she knew they were planning a fight. What were all of these other girls their for? As we can plainly see they all had a beef with her.

So without emotion, once again I will state the facts that are being given just don’t add up. Cameras were there, 6 girls were their etc. And, if we believe this mother the victim was further failed by an adult that heard their was going to be a fight and failed to notify anyone. Mercades had plenty of chances to get these other girls out of their. Or, if she was so “terrified” of Brittini Hardcastle go around the bushes outside and call 911.

Yes, I do not think the facts add up to support this girl or Kayla as this mother has repeatedly done. If you are so paralyzed with fear of someone then why are you hanging around them? Talk about being against human nature. Mercades was well within arms reach on that couch of Brittini H. Kayla was right in the THICK of things. Yet, we are to believe this one girl had this much of a terroristic hold on them. I just in no way, shape or for makes any sense.

This really isn’t said out of anger. I hate to keep bringing up the tape but, it is the only true evidence that no one can talk their way out of.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Gomp . she defends her Jake the Snake comments as i defend her right to use them .We all judge others on what they say and do.I do not agree with Electria for example but I sure wish there were more of her around . I have probally read everyone of Amy V post and I think she hits a bulleye almost everytime so with each one of statments my respect for her has increased . .Sometimes I thought she was the only one who,s opinions mirriored mine .my point being is that with this case if you have read all that has been said why be suprised .The comments on this blog concerning Christine and Mercades have been relativly mild compared to what most of the free world think and have said about these 2.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Amy V you are right and as long as this is thier defense then these girs will continue to earn the scorn of the decent part of society. Not to ask anyone to look at the tape again but when Brit h gave Victoria that really bad shot and Brit m Was havving her
private momment you can see Kayla in the backgound with this hude grin on her face .This is the part that most of us fonnd the most disturbing

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November 29, 2008

Phil

P.S sorry for the bad typing . Keyboards are just not my thing,.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Phil – My mother also held all of her children to very high standards. Although, I never bullied anyone she taught me one extremely important lesson.

When I did something wrong, no matter who else was with me, she always placed the blame squarely on my shoulders. I had some friends whos mothers would blame anyone else present as a bad influence on their daughter. I even got blamed by one mother for something her daughter did when I wasn’t even there.

So, I apply these same rules to my daughter. Of course if you know someone is absolutely bad news, you keep your child away from that person.

This goes to my latest blog. If these girls were so bad, what was she being allowed to hang around them for? I made a statement about the exboyfriend of Mercades being allowed to hang around her after he had threatened her little sister (according to Garcia). Something was fired back at me by her about not wanting to go to jail. What? Call the cops. Press charges against the boy. Put your daughter on restriction if you can not keep her away from this boy. If she is not allowed out of the house, you can control this behavior.

Yes, she has a right to defend her daughter against hate mail and death threats. She has the right to defend her daughter against people that make cruel remarks. However, the whole conspiracy theory is just nonsense.

You are blaming everyone under the sun for your daughters actions. What is this teaching her daughter. The sheriff got some facts wrong yes. But, he was dead on with a lot of the things he said. If they hadn’t made the tape and commited the crime, they would not be charged with anything. I don’t understand what does not make sense about this.

Gompertz – Just as you are allowed to have your opinion of this woman, so am I. I do think she is manipulative and that is my right to say so. I do believe she has made comments against the victim on this blog and I will continue to go through each and everyone of her statements to prove or disprove this.

As for asking her a question in a civil manner and her giving a civil response. that only seems to apply when it is in every way favorable to her daughter. Or if it is agreement with her by name calling of Mercades ex boyfriend. Now that is one mother I would truely enjoy joining in on this conversation. As she spews hatred for this boy every chance she gets. And yes it is plan and simple HATRED she is talking about.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Phil – I think you just made my point better than I could. And we were typing the same type of thoughts at the same time. If it is acceptable for her to come on here and say hateful things about this boy and his mother, why should she not expect the same behavior from others.

I don’t go on those other blogs just for that reason. This one is mild compared to them. I don’t even want to know what they are saying.
Kill this one and she deserved it, either way showing no better mentality than these girls.

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November 29, 2008

Electronica

amy i wrote that idk if kayla hit tori. all i said is she didnt hit tori on the vid. idk why its so hard to comunicate. pls read what i wrote again. so i dont take the word of one girl over the other!

and amy we know tori was wrong she said april knocked her out in the bedroom and april didnt you could see that on the second vid.

so amy it could be toris mistaken about kayla too no? like if theres lots of girls and lots of drama and some of them push you it can be hard to remember who pushed you that happened to me and by monday i wasnt so sure. and that was just pushing. tori got beat real bad and got concusion and says she doesnt remember stuff so it really messed with her brain. and amy i also know some girls who like tell a lot of tall tales to please someone or make them feel sorry for them. some girls dont really mean anyhting bad by it they just do it cause their used to it and get away with it. so maybe toris like that. like to make her parents feel more sorry for her. and to tell the cops what they wanne hear. like she says maybe and the cps say we need you to be sure so she says yeah im sure to please them.

i think some girls are like ppl here they cant tell the diff between what may be true and whatas likely to be true and what really is true. but tori had swelling on her brain so that had to be like a huge huge headache so it must have been hard to think too. ppl here dont get beat up right before they post and they still post lots of silly stuff. so maybe tori didnt realize this isnt normal life anymore this is like going to be all over tv she had no clue and no clue theyll be facing life in prison and stuff so she wasnt carefull about the diff between what she thinks is true and what she knows its true. the boys being lookouts was a good example. she said zach was a lookout and that shes sure and when the cops asked how can she be sure tori said zach smiled at her when she got in and she could tell by the way he smiled. so she doesnt understand the diff here between knowing and believing.

and why kayla and not merc is easy merc was a couce potato but kayla got in toris face jst when britti was beating tori so its easy for tori to think kala hit her even if she didnt but with merc it wouldnt be so easy to be mistaken is all.

and really id like to hear from the other girls about this. like kayla really screwed up britti and april she didnt agree t lie for them and she gave up the vid without kayla these girls would already be on probation if that and it wouldnt be on tv at all. so why would britti and april help kayla? i dont think they would. so id say ask them. and i wanne know what cara said but i cant find what she said anywhere except like ten seconds of it. but i think even if all the girls say kayla didnt hit tori and even if all the girls pass the lie detector ppl like you are going to refuse to belive them cause they already made up their minds.

i mean it sso gullible not to see something s wrong here it makes no sense not to like question all these girls cops do that right away in normal cases but theres something real wrong here. and kayla and cara agreed to like testify under oath didnt they if the others girls now say kayla lied shed be in huge trouble and could go to prison for lying under oath no? so its not the girls and their lawyers its the cops and persecution.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Rainman – I do believe a lot of the issues you have about Victorias privacy rights are misplaced. If you are finding insight from this mother than surely you have read her comments about Victoria.

Since I do not know her personally I defend her as a victim. Information has been given, on this post alone, I can not speak for the others by only a select few. And if you continue to read the blather I will quote more of what she has said. Welcome to the blog. If we all agreed we would not be here this long I do not believe as their would be nothing left to say.

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Phil, first I wonder what you mean about Electronica. I myself appreciate her input and respect her ideas and how she expresses herself honestly, even though I disagree sometimes.
And I wonder why Amy says we disagree 99% of the time. I think we agree a lot but it’s more fun to argue about the things you don’t agree on than keep repeating that we mostly agree.
As you say, the things that have been said about Mercades and her mother elsewhere are a lot worse than what has been said here. I know, I’ve seen a lot of those comments and they are pretty nasty. But don’t you think Mercades and her mom have seen some of those comments too? And factor in the phone calls, the threats, and these are people who re under a lot of pressure. So, no, I don’t exactly feel sorry for them, but I don’t believe in kicking people when they’re down. And the same goes for the other families, and I think you appreciate that.

So here is what I don’t understand,and I have asked for an explanation and I get no answer. I am aware that the victim here is Victoria, and I support her as well as you can support someone you don’t know personally. Some people seem to think that if I show any concern whatsoever what the others it must mean I am deficient in concern for the victim. Actually, just the opposite is true. By showing concern for them all I show more concern for the victim. Let me tell you what I mean.

I understand what Victoria went through. The beating, the pain, the humiliation, the betrayal, I had similar things happen to me, except for the camera. Except unlike you, no one ever apologized. For all I know they are still laughing 45 years later. I think a victim does need that apology, and without it there is no healing. In the end you have to feel that those who did this to you really feel remorse and want your forgiveness. Otherwise you just accept it that this is the way the world is and you better get over it, and all your anger and bitterness stay locked inside. So, do you see why I want to reach out to those who attacked Victoria? I wish I could make them understand that what they did really hurt her, and that they really need to ask for forgiveness. And you don’t get there by attacking them because when you attack people they will resist you and go in the opposite direction.

So that is my point of view and I don’t delude myself into thinking I can bring about this grand reconciliation. But like I said I can dream.

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November 29, 2008

Scott

Amy’s iron will! Amy and her views on the Victoria Lindsay assault and improsinment have not wavered from day one and she is to be commended for that. But I doubt the prosecution’s convicitions are as strong as Amy’s and that’s why I think we’ll see the plea deals happening soon perhaps even starting soon. Amy you should be working for the prosecution. )

Isn’t Kayla Hassall having a court hearing on December 5th? I bet Kayla would like to head into the Christmas holidays with a plea deal in place. And the other girls too for that matter.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Phil:
So, because Mercades warned her not to go in because the girls that she didn&rsquot get along with were there visiting, she knew it was planned?
Sorry, blogged by Garcia. Did not get that part in.

In Garcia’s interview on Greta she stated that a reporter had actually told her Victoria was bragging at work that she was coming over to this house to fight these two girls.

If Mercades per Christina’s own words “begged Victoria not to go in the house.” Why would this be necessary for Mercades to beg her not to go in because two of the girls wanted to beat her up, if she didn’t know it was going to happen before hand. that is what we call planned.

These words come from Garcia herself. So if this is a defense for her daughter, it truelly is not a good one. The two statements contradict each other. Not planned but you know they are planning to beat her up. I do not think I will get an answer to this question either.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Gomp I will try to explain better although with abstact emotions some times it is hard .Eltronicia has from what i have read on her post a well rounded sense of right and wrong she ,as it seems to me ,doent excuse thier behavior she just does not think giving long sentences to those who
didn,t strike Victoria or in case of April Cooper being in an adult prison is jutified .I find these good qualities She dosen’t buy the I am scared tatic and seems to be hard to intimidate . She wants to wait for facts.With Christine its her quest to make a buck out of this tradgedy . Its her reducing her daughter’s involement to that of a spectator that was just a bad friend.Can you imagine a legal system where you invite friends into your home let them kick the holy crap out of someome add a heavy dose of humiliatin and then have her and her Mom claim I was just being a bad friend . I am not really responsible . it was those other bad people .This is where they have garnered the condemation of most people . Please feel free to support them but you should understand why this will upset your fellow bloggers .
To Electronica if I have mis-represented you in any way please except my apoligy . To Gomp does this help answer your question

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November 29, 2008

Phil

To Amy V and Gomp
If you take what Amy said earlier if she warned Victoria then she had a legal responsibility to say to people she invited into her house . “You can’t do this in my home ” agaainn she had the power to stop this at any time ,certainly after the fisrt hits ere delivered ..

Reply
November 29, 2008

gompertz

Phil, yup, sure does, thanks : )

Reply
November 29, 2008

Amyv

Christina got on national news and stated that Tori should have been able to back it up&rdquo

Well now she&rsquos here. How about we give her an informal interview and ask her ourselves what she meant by that?

Christina: What did you mean when you said that statement? And are you willing to apologize or take back your words or do you stand by that statement?

That comment has been so twisted it is very sad. I have posted before and after this I won&rsquot respond to this question anymore, especially for someone like that other person.
What happened was first I was asked what do you think was going through Brittany&rsquos mind at the time she was hitting her and all..My interview was recorded but was edited before the 11:00 news. I did say &rdquo I just don&rsquot understand why she would say those things if she didn&rsquot have the nerve to back up what she was saying&rdquo I was very angry at the time for all the lies that The Sheriff was airing, them putting Mercades picture, address, and our family&rsquos home number public and all before she was even charged as an adult. To this day I still don&rsquot understand alot about the victim, why she told people she was going to kick thier asses and months of harrassing from Mercades&rsquo computer, and why she chose to go back in the house after seeing the girls were there : ( I don&rsquot get it, and I won&rsquot sit here and pretend like I do. The only thing I can think of is and please don&rsquot misunderstand this statement, sometimes girls and maybe boys after having such a crappy life, they start feeling like they are nothing just a piece of dirt, and they intentionally put thereselves in situations that will cause harm, they feel like they deserve it. I don&rsquot thik she deserved it : ( come one now&hellipThe part &rdquo if she didn&rsquot have the nerve to back it up&rdquo well, I know I shouldn&rsquot have worded things like that, and I have said I am sorry for that.
For those who respect who I am, you know my email, just keep in touch and I will let you know what I know, well to an extent, because my computer has been hacked, emails with evidence just being deleted and so on.

O.K. my reponse to her reponse to this question. As Gompertz said before get ready. This is exactly what I have been stating this entire time. Their is no way to misunderrstand her statement. Actually, it is just sickening. How DARE you talk about this girl this way.

Anyone that does not consider this bashing the victim must be blind. You don’t understand why she put herself in harms way. Because, she isn’t evil enough to even concieve of the notion that six girls would be lying in wait to totally beat the crap out of her, Not caring if she was scared for her LIFE. NOT ONE ON ONE JUST ONE AT A TIME.

For 30 minutes these animals beat and tortured this girl in every evil way they could think of. And got some kind of sick satisfaction out of it that no NORMAL human being every could. KIDNAP, TORTURE, MENTAL HUMILIATION beyond belief. And, it was through no lack of trying that they did not kill this girl. And if you admit she was using your daughters computer to threaten them. your daughter must have known about that to which adds even more sickness to this whole ordeal.

You are more disturbed than anyone of these girls because you are ‘supposed’ to be an adult.
Now, it is perfectly clear that as long as your daughter is around you, she will behave in exactly the way she has been. Maybe, she does deserve some sympathy. Because, if she has a mother that can make statements likes that about the VICTIM and then fake sympathy, she has not got a chance in hell of knowing what normal is.

I am sure you will read this with great satisfaction and amusement because with out a doubt some people will jump to your defense. For your daughters sake, if you care about her one bit, refrain yourself from making these statements in court. Or, she may get a much harsher punishment than anyone on this blog has every suggested.

Angry yes. Surprised. No. Exactly what I have thought of this woman the entire time. You are not hurting any one on this post Miss big bad Christina. Actually you are a big joke. Come on poor on some of that honey you were talking about. No one every accused you of being smart. lol. Just a manipulative person who is in it for the money and attention. Perhaps you should read the words you wrote about Victoria and apply them to yourself. But, doubtful you will. You have way to big of an ego for that. Although, for the life of me I don’t know why. Get a job, leave your poor kids with your mother to raise as they only stand a chance with her.
TaTa.

Reply
November 29, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Why would I want to start a gang up on Christina club. After all for the life of me I can’t understand why she would put herself in the situation of being on a post that believes in victims rights.

But, you know she can back up what she says. I really think the poor think has had such a terrible life that she feels she may deserve the treatment that the sheriff, FBI, general public, media, hackers, myself, the sheriffs child molesting nephew, Jake the Snake, his drunk mother, etc. Excuse me the list is so long it gets exhausting.

I may have said my words in a heat of anger. I truely do hope this woman gets help with her severe paranoia disorder and delusions of granduer. If for no one else but for her children.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Phil – Once again I could not agree more.

Scott – They may get off on light sentences this time but, I have a strong suspicion they will not. Don’t forget this is not the only trial coming up for one fo these girls. So getting off with a light sentence twice. Unlikely, but probable.

I would much rather be the prosecutor in this case than the defense attornies. I don’t have the stomach for bashing innocent victims. I would not want to be on the jury either. First of all I would be honest and say I have preconceived notions and would find it hard to be impartial. May sound bad. But at least I would be honest enough to give them a fair trial.

I will never back down from advocating for victims. They need a much stronger voice in society.

Even though I may get emotional, I also need one to back down to anyone. If I am wrong I have said so. If I strongly believe in what I say, I do not go with the popular opinion as you can cleary see over the past couple of months. Although, their seem to be a lot more people on now with the same beliefs as mine or close.

I think I am one of the only women on this blog that just can not believe this mother. Something to think about I guess. GregS might be able to give an analysis on that one for me. Way off subject. getting tired.

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November 29, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I have never felt the need to apologize to someone on this post than I do to you right now. A lot of blogging at the same time. So you blog before you read a blog before you.

I will not pretend to feel sympathy for this mother in any way because, I truly believe everything I say about her. I will leave my feelings towards the girls out of this conversation.

I do now understand where you are coming from on certain things I could not before. Yes, when someone truly hurts you that you trusted it can be a very devastating feeling. With out giving out to my detail I have been truly hurt by two friends I have had for a lifetime. Not in this way but in others.

It makes you doubt everyone around you just as Victoria said. That is a terribly lonely feeling. Wow, really getting emotional on this one.

When you are the type of person that gives your friendship and loyalty easily it can be hard to reconcile these type of actions. But, as fiercely loyal as I am in my friendships once, you break my trust to such an extreme extent, as these girls did to her, you have lost it forever.

I know people say you can find some kind of peace or closure in certain situations when someone says they are sorry. But, how do you know when to trust that apology when the disloyalty was as severe as in this case.

So, I am not sure which way is better. No apology and just try to move on. Or an apology that you can never quit be sure is sincere. You do can not imagine how many times I have asked myself this question.

I expect the same fierce loyalty from my friends and the people I love as I extend to them. Hard to see this young girl learn this lesson so early in live. For it truly can be devastating.

On the other hand you can turn it around take it as a cruel lesson learned and become a stronger person than you ever imagined you could be.
I truly hope Victoria can do this. It takes time. Sometimes, quite a long and although this has been almost a year to her it could seem like yesterday.

That is why I so fiercely defend her. Everyone makes mistakes. She did seem to make a view at home but, no one ever deserves to learn a lesson in this manner.

She needs to grab a hold and surround herself by people who truly care about her and can be their for any time she needs them. You need a lot of support to overcome betrayal.

I truly hope she knows, even if she did say things about a couple of these girls, she should never, ever blame herself. Yes, that is also an emotion that comes with betrayal. Perhaps one of the hardest ones to get over.

Wow, way to tired. I wish I could just tell her to hang tough. Things will get better. You will never forget but, it will not rule your life forever. GN all.

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November 29, 2008

Phil

Amy V
please do let Christina get to you .Her actions will not have an outcome on the punishment the girls will receive in fact it may be a detrement against Mercades . Whatever sentences these girls get or do not get re plea bargin. in the court of public opinion they will be guilty . This will follow them for a long time and there will be painful reminders for them throughout thier lives , whether it is a guy who won’t ask them out or a job or promotion that will not be offered or wispers and stares real or imagined . Or wandering if thier new boyfiends family will be accepting .With thier actions they have given up much that we all take for granted and deservidly so … Can you imagine you are at a party and 1 or 2 of these girls came in the room .If I had a few drinks in me I don’t think I could remain quiet . If the courts don,t make them pay a proper place
society will . Before anyone thinks this means violence it does not . It is the ability to walk with your head high realize your potential and be a part of the greater good .I truley feel if they pay the proper price now then they can move on . If they do not then it may be worse . Ihope and pray that Victoria recovers ,conquers her demons and has a life tha dosen’t begins and ends with mess

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November 29, 2008

gompertz

Amy, thank you, you are truly a good person. Now you know where I am coming from. What I do, I do for Victoria, I’ve never forgotten that. it’s the reason I got this my first computer in the first place. When the hurt is this deep, those responsible must feel total remorse, total repentance, and that can’t be faked. Like Peter weeping bitterly when he betrayed his Lord. So I feel I must do more than gratify my own need to express my outrage and hurl insults. I feel I must reach out, not to defend the indefensible, but to find a way for reconciliation to take place, first of all for Victoria’s sake and for all victims. That is the Spiritual path and may everyone find it. gn

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

im gonne blog a bit more today cause im in bed with cold. i didnt sleep much and my head hurts and i cant go out so im in a bad mood and so im sorry if i come across a bit mad i dont wanne insult ppl.

what gets to me is how mean and cruel so many of you are here. like lots of you want the girls to go to prison for years. its unfair!

the girls didnt try to kill tori they didnt try to really injure her it was a misdemeener beating. like it should tell you a lot that tori doesnt want them to go to prison not even britti toris not so mean and cruel like you and she was the one who got beat up so shes got a right to be unfair now.

i cant belive ppl like nav and greg and phil and i guess marc and maybe even amy and gomp demand prison for april and even kayla.

id rather get beat up like tori every month for five years than be in prison for five years. and id rather get beat up five years every week like tori was by april on the vid than be in prison for five years. i mean its just crazy it doesnt add up. like if the punishment is like a hundred times worse than the crime somethings wrong its insane.

if i was april and i was sent to prison for five years like phil and nav demand id probably kill myself cause it would be so unfair. i mean my life would be over anyway id never go to college or even finish hs and id be a felon and couldnt get a job and everyone would look down on me and no one would talk to me except criminals. but id kill myself mainly cause i wouldnt wanne live when ppl are so unfair and so that they know how mean they were. even if i was kayla and got two years not five and maybe could make it back to hs i think id still kill myself cause it would be so unfair.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

and phil i dont think you really learned from your mom you didnt learn to be kind. its sad cause nav and greg dont listen to reason but you do with you i guess its just being cruel not being biased or ignorant or blinded by anger like amy.

you were just a year younger than april and you say you and your friends made some girl miserable for a whole year you say it was like a hell for her. and she was retarded or crippled too. so why didnt you go to jail? or more like prison? i mean had you just beat up the girl the way april beat up tori but after that left her alone or even started to be nice to her shed be much less miserable. you probably did her worse than april did tori but you say april should go to prison for five years.

how can you be so cruel?

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Eltronica . You make good points as always .Just to clarify .There was never any viloence directed at this Girl .nor kidnapping. not to excuse the pain I helped create . I swear from that point on I never again took part in any teasing and believe me it cost me that year to be sure because like all bullies everywhere I became the target as well so I can also understand what its like when friends turn. But when I was part of the problem I was as responsible for the laughing and encouraging as my friends were for the doing . . I am really trying not to be cruel or vindictive in this case but they are being tried as adults and I really think that anything less does not fit the crimes . I do not think theses girls are evil or beyond repair . many people have died with similar types of brutatilty eventhough death was not intended,and prisons are full of people who would take it all back in a moment if they could ..As far as I know when the girls watched the tape at the neighbours not one of them thought it was a big deal .How could they see this and not realize what they have done.Kayla said that it was only after she got home that evening and it on the news that’s when the regret started and they realizeed how much trouble they were in .

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November 30, 2008

Phil

Again to Electronica . The problem I have with your views on sentencing is in my opinion is that not only does it not fit the crime but there is no deterent to the next bunch of who may think of something similar . A couple months in Juv scares no one these days .When you stated if i was april and i was sent to prison for five years like phil and nav demand id probably kill myself cause it would be so unfair. that is the type of deterent that that may make a diference . I do not think that April should serve that time in adult prison . Please also remember that many others have called for life , viloence and other untold horrors to be be inflicted on these girls . I also stated that “It&rsquos hard for me to come up with approiate punishment in this case . They are or were teenager&rsquos at the time of the assult . I also do not have the experience to see how this assult stacks up against others ..Any punishment given to these girls should have profesonial help included so whatever broke down in thier thought process can be addressed . I would like to state again that I don’t thing Brit h is a sycopath or that April and Mercades are evil .I just think they have a price to pay for thier actions . With Brit M its even harder gor me because while the others seemed to be angry she seemed to be enjoying the whole process and being behind the camera made her way more of a participant then Kayla and Mercades.I can’t remember exactly what you have stated before so if you could explain again what you give to these girls. then I would like to hear it That is the problem with joining a blog so late you guys have already discussed and stated your opinions and probally don’t want to go over old statments
hope you feel better soon

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronica I always listen to reason, try making a better case to bring me over to your line of reasoning.

To help you make your case I’ll tell you my goals and motivation.

1. Reducing teen violence (using any means necessary)

2. Ending the trend of victimizing people on film.

Tell me why my current line of thought is not likely to accomplish these goals and then show me a line of thought which you believe is more likely to accomplish these goals.

I chose the tough love line of thought because I think fear is one of the best ways to modify behavior, the bullies taught me that. If you have a way which is more effective at modifying behavior, please tell us. I’m only interested in results.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Phil one of the main differences between bullying in our generation and bullying in Electronica’s generation is this is on tape. It was more than just a physical beating,they were trying to psychologically destroy Victoria.

Many kids have committed suicide over experiences like that, so to think that it’s not so bad isn’t right because you cannot measure the level of psychological destruction of having a tape of you being victimized passed around.

Electronica thinks I’m cruel out of anger and hatred, when I just think a strong deterrent must be found and applied by justice system BEFORE the streets find that deterrent and the laws of nature take over. Electronica is thinking that everyone will react to this like Victoria did, when in reality some kids will commit suicide and some kids will get even.

Look at what happened to Megan Meier, she was bullied to death. Yes she commited suicide, but if we don’t severely punish the bully in this case then there will be no deterrent at all. In this case it’s an adult who is almost 50 years old, but I don’t think our deterrent should only apply to adults who are 50, anyone who bullies someone to death, should face severe consequences where we treat them similar to how they treated their victim. I believe it’s now ethical to make that Drew chicks life miserable, as a deterrent to reduce the popularity of this type of behavior. The deterrent has to be as strong and as scary as we can make it, if the bully would rather commit suicide themselves than be in the Drew position, GOOD.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Greg It is tough today the legal system is not set up to deal with internet bullying. Unlike the Drew case there were few laws in place that could be used ,that is not the case with this assult . There were plenty of laws broken hense the multiple charges .
Eltronica everytime a judge sends someone to prison he or she is being cruel but that is the burden a judge has . .Again I am not a qualified judge and I can’t weigh this against past cases of similar a similar nature . I promise I will not direct any more cooments at ou till you have had a chance to respond if this is you wish.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

P.S God I have to learnhow to proof read better

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Phil – lol. I think we could all use better proof reading skill but, thank God that is not an issue on this blog. Spelling errors or inappropriate grammer usage are just to much to keep up with when you are trying to discuss this topic. We all get tried and some of us are better than others at using the keyboard. So I never take that as lack of intelligence or I would be at the bottom of the think tank. lol l

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Phil it doesn’t have to be set up to deal with internet bullying. The problem with our legal system is that it doesn’t deal with bullying period.

Society tells you that if you get bullied to join a gang and get even if you want justice. Whether it’s on the internet or not is inconsequential.

Phil you are correct that there are some laws to deal with bullying, but you don’t need a seperate set of laws to deal with bullying on the internet because the crime is the same no matter if its over the phone, the internet, the mail, or from a position of authority. Harassment already is a crime, stalking already is a crime, they could have charged Drew with that but they didn’t.

Bullying isn’t a crime anywhere. I can beat someone up with a group of my friends and be sure that even if there is a trial, I’ll just get community service. So what do I have to lose?

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November 30, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv said :
So, because Mercades warned her not to go in because the girls that she didn&rsquot get along with were there visiting, she knew it was planned?
Sorry, blogged by Garcia. Did not get that part in.

In Garcia&rsquos interview on Greta she stated that a reporter had actually told her Victoria was bragging at work that she was coming over to this house to fight these two girls.

If Mercades per Christina&rsquos own words &ldquobegged Victoria not to go in the house.&rdquo Why would this be necessary for Mercades to beg her not to go in because two of the girls wanted to beat her up, if she didn&rsquot know it was going to happen before hand. that is what we call planned.

If we looked at things your way that would mean it was planned and that the victim had known about it too?

So, you say you can’t trust my information on the case? Thats fine with me, you can just wait and hear things on the news. This blog has took a turn for the worst, it is no longer real questions being asked and crustructive comments and opinions. You could’ve taken this moment to teach me and others how things should be dealt with in your eyes. I don’t know anything that after being ripped a new one, would turn around and ask or head any advice you might have.
How can you ask me a question and then when I answer it you attack me for it? Why not just say ok, you think I’m a jerk go on with your bashing me but don’t ask me anything anymore.
BTW..Did Tori acually say she was knocked out in the bedroom? I may be mistaken, but I don’t think she said that. I believe it was The Sheriff who said ” Our victim was knocked out and drug to the living room” So, in Tori’s defense I believe he ( we know who) has put her along with the State in a very bad bad bad situation. The step mother figured this out early on that he was just using them for his benefit. So, as things unfold and everyone sees all the lies please keep in mind He is the one who made up the most lies.
And my name is ChristinA.
Peace

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

phil even if you didnt ht that girl i think she had it worse than tori if you picked on her all year long and she was dff like retarded or crippled. with tori those girls said she herself was a bully like kayla was so angry tori thretened her just cause kayla told her parents where she is. what they did to tori was wrong but it was done cause she did some stuff and she knows it. that girl you picked on i bet couldnt help being diff thats why it was much worse and it went on for like a year. so the diff between tori and that girl is like the diff between a harsh punishment of someone you think is guilty and punishment of someone for doing nothing wrong at all. so id feel worse if i was that girl you picked on than if i was tori.

and phil how can you say your punishment fits the crime when i explained its hundreds time worse than the crime? like i said it doesnt add up.

and saying the punishment should be so harsh that kids kill themselves is just wrong.

and saying punishment must be so harsh no one else will do it is just wrong too. like everyone dl music but it doesnt make it right to put kids in prison for it or maybe to cut off their hand like they used to do in the middle ages!

if the punishment is cruel than its cruel and wrong just like those girls punishing tori was cruel and wrong. its just your punishment is much more cruel and wrong than what those girls did.

and its likely gonne make the girls into criminals not good ppl thats if they dont kill themselves.

and its not gonne help stop bullying its gonne make it worse if anything i explained that before i can do it again later.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

I get so torn up with this case I can’t imagine what those other girls and thier families have gone through and honestly I have not spent alot of time trying to figure it out i have refered to them as Goons , felons, animals and have thought much worse. It is hard to know what they think because of the gag order so much is speculation . If thier lawyer’s actions are representitive of there clients then I haven’t seen much remorse .These people all made horible mistakes I wish when I think back to the video that the anger would go away but it just dosen’t . So it is not only with logic that I say these things and my anger and disgust have to be tempered[ But not eliminated} with in the confines of the legal system for good or bad . As we are not perfect either is the system. There are plenty of laws to deal with most crimes it all boils down to how much punishment these people deserve . I know for some this is easy for me this is not ,To send these girls away in thier formitive years would be devastaing and a cruel hardship to them and thier families I don.t know if I could ever be a judge .I would probally be more like Mercades Mom and want to give them all a hug . They will be alone afraid in an hostle envioment .So yes I can feel some empathy for these “felons”. However felony laws are in place for exactly these types of crimes it is why jails are built in the first place .so we can put away people who show such disrespect for thier fellow citizens. If or when they get sent away I will feel no joy only sadness that these girls mades such bad decisions .When I think of all the pain that eveyone invoved in this case has and will experience I could just cry ,

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

ms. garcia it was tori who said she was knocked out its on the website of your paper i cant elieve you wouldnt know didnt you read all the docs id think youd more than i do. i read all i could and im just curios i dont even know anyone there but you got merc how come you dont know something so important i dont underatnd are you really mercs mom?

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

also ppl how come grownups dont go to prison for misdemener beatings but kids have to go to prison? and how come grownups who like injure others real bad like broken bones and stuff dont get more than what you demand for these girls? even ppl who kill dont get much more if they didnt mean to kill but they were doing something criminal like attacking someone or drinking and driving!

like toris biomom shes killed someone stabbed someone in the heart didnt mean to kill but did and she got ten years. and you say britti should do eight!! and april five!!!

and toris biomom was grownup not even young and should have known much better whats dangerous and how to keep cool than like when your fourteen i mean when your that age you cant drive you cant go to some movies without your mom and its like the first year you get to have your myspace with your real age. so how come your now being judged like you should be as wise and smart like some university proffessor?

and when your fourteen five years in prison is like fifteen years in prison when your thirty and prison is much harder for you. i mean id much rather go to jail for 10 years when im 34 than for five years right now. so realy aprils to be punished more for misdemeener beating than toris biomom for killing someone? and aprils tried as an adult means she must go to adult prison and i read kids down in florida get beat and raped and killed in prison by grownup prisoners its much more likelty to happen to you when your fourteen i mean you know thats true for sure.

so again you ppl want the girls to suffer much more for a misdemeener beating than grownups suffer for doing real grownup crime.

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – First of all I am sorry you are not feeling well and I hope you get better soon. It is flu season and I know alot of people coming down with that now and it is truly miserable. I work in the health field and am trying to dodge it when all of my patients are coming down with it.
I know it is miserable to stay in bed and yes that can make you grouchy. lol.

Many good points have been brought up in response to your blog. I will try again to make you understand where I am coming from on this issue. Which I am sure sometimes can be very difficult for you because I do let emotions get in the way of making my point.

First and foremost I have never stated nor will I ever state that these teenagers deserve to be killed, put in prison for life or receive death threats. That does not fit in anyway the crimes that they have commited.

Do I become very angry with them. Yes I do. I will not deny that. But, a lot of times my anger is more directed at the mother. Because I do believe in Mercades case she is a portion of the problem. I will not blame all of the parents because we have not heard from some of them they have been very quiet.

You yourself have brought up an issue that I think none of us have even thought about and can be a real consequence. Suicide. We all know teenagers are the most vunerable for commiting this act. This is another truly frightening aspect that could result from actions such as we have seen these girls take.

I have no doubt these girls had every intention of inflicting physical harm to Victoria. If they did not they would have hever touched her in the first place. I saw some vicious punches thrown at this girl and if they were not intended to harm I don’t know what is. As for how far they intended to take it or how much they cared what damage they did we really don’t know. I have to disagree with you on misdameanor battery. Not from what I saw and not from the number of these girls that hit her.

Once again as I have stated I will bellieve the victim that four of these girls did hit her. Not just two. As for her being knocked unconscious sometimes you can be so disoriented from blows to the head and a concusion that she may very well have felt that or it could have been for a split second. However, she was very precise on who hit her. Who threw the most punches and pretty precise as to how many she stated the other two girls threw. Granted many less than Brittini H. and April Copper but never the less hitting is an intent to harm. Also, remember we have only seen about 5 minutes of a 30 minute ordeal. Whether the rest of it is still on tape is debateable.

I know you love to be on computer and play dectetive as you have stated before. So I would like you to look into the effects that repeated blows to the head can have. Also, look up what just one blow delivered to just the right spot can do. You will find cases where a person was hit with a fist in just the right area of the brain to cause death or severe brain damage.

I do not believe these girls were trying to kill her. However, it could have very easily happened and then where would they be? They should be praying to God that this was not the case. It truly is a miracle that this girl came out of this beating without more severe injuries. However, I do not take loss of some vision in her eye lightly. That is something that will cause her difficulty for the rest of her life. Also, concussions can have lasting effects some that do not show up until a few years down the road. So if I show anger towards someone who caused another person pain, it is not meant to be out of hate. Hate is a very strong word that I do believe is used to loosely in our society. Not directing that comment at you.

As I stated before you brought up a whole new aspect to bullying. The suicide issue. Victoria was put through alot of emotional torture. Whether the tape was intended to be posted on you tube or not it was taped for someones viewing pleasure. I am sorry if that offends you but that is a fact.

Imagine it was your who went through this. Imagine knowing it was on video. Imagine knowing that the people that caused you all of this pain could watch it over and over again for further satisfaction. We already know for a fact (this was stated and taped by police by Kayla) that right after the beating, right after, they went to the boys house next door and watched it. So, since the boys were not physicaly inside the house at the time they already had their first audience. So knowing this and the possibility that this could have been passed around at school how much more damage to you think that would do to you emotionally. Suicide could easily be another scenario their.

Now let me address the teenagers that did the beating in this case. Yes, jail surely must be a terrible place to be. At any age and especially for ones so young. Juve. not are sure since I have heard conflicting experiences from teenagers who have actually been their. Some say it is just as bad as jail and one girl told me she learned nothing. She thought it was a joke. She hit another person and spent two days in jail. She said that is what woke her up. Believe me when I say this girl is tough. She could have taken on Brittini and April Cooper at the same time with no problem and perhaps that would have been a more fitting punsihment I don’t know. So becoming depressed enough in this situation to become suicidal is another terrible scenario.

I myself can not tell you which one of these situations I would rather be in. Obviously neither. I certainly could not take the kind of abuse Victoria did every day or every week or even ever month for a year without considering a way out. Prison for five years the same. You just don’t know.

That is what I think most of us, although it does not always come out right are trying to prevent. We can not prevent the actions already taken by these girls. We can not prevent the damage that has already been done to the victim. We can not make this case go away.

So all you are left with is what can be done to try to prevent it from happeneing again. maybe next time resulting in death and then we would be talking about the death penalty for teenagers so young. And since their has been much debate on premeditation on these girls part, that would have qualified as an option.

Electonica I truly hope if their is one thing I can accomplish on this blog it would be to make you and other possible teenagers visiting it to understand the severity of this crime and all of the horrible things that have already resulted from it.

These girls do have to be punishes. I know you believe that as you have stated that before. Probably the best thing for all of them and yes I mean all would be to go to boot camp. The length of time I would suggest I am sure you will find unfair but, at least two years for the lessser involved and five years for the ones who did most of the beating. Boot camp is certainly no picnic but, perhaps if we take the possibility of prison (with possible severe harm coming to these girls) off the table we can come to more of a middle ground.

Since a lot of teenagers thiink boot camp is a joke perhaps a documentary should be shown at every possible opportunity to realize the adults don’t play their. The teenagers stick to a very regemented schedule and no disrespect or thinking you are going to be a toughie would be tolerated. They will keep you way to occupied for that nonsense.

I know I have had a lot of run on sentences. This is also a very long blog. I just would like to help you understand where I am coming from. You are one of the very people I am trying to protect. You should not be subjected to this ever. El – it saddens me to think you think this is a misdameanor charge for it is truly not. If you think that I believe, like so many other teenagers, maybe you have been subjected to to much violence. This is the exact reason I will stand my ground no matter what.

If you see my anger come out at Mercades mother I am truly sorry. Maybe you will agree with me on this one without thinking I am a hypocrite. I do not want to drag you until the middle of that debate my any means. I am just trying to stick up for the victim. Perhaps, also Mercades to as I feel a very bad example is being set for her. If this is all she knows than how do we hope to change her behavior in the future. See, I really am not heartless towards these girls:).

Get some rest feel better and I hope I have made some sense here.

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November 30, 2008

christina garcia

I am sorry if I was mistaken : ( please forgive me…My mind is filled up with this case and my normal life as well. I do realize she was not completely honest either, but the Sheriff has made lies up and still have put The Lindsays in a diffucult place. Again I’m sorry for my mistake

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Phil said: “Please feel free to support them but you should understand why this will upset your fellow bloggers.”

Okay, now here’s what I think. I don’t think I get mad when people disagree with me, I get mad when people get mad at me for not getting mad at the same things they get mad in the same way they get mad. It’s like if you are at a party and everybody takes drugs and they give you drugs and you say you don’t want any drugs and they get mad and throw you out because they think you’re a party-pooper because you don’t want drugs. Or it’s like when peasants with pitchforks are marching together and screaming “burn the witches!” and you say let’s think about this maybe burning all the young girls won’t really make the crops grow and they get mad and stick you with their pitchforks and you get mad and then you die. Anyway that’s what I think.

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – Please direct me to some of these sites you are gettig information on. I know you are much better at this than me. I am having trouble pulling up police reports, victims and accused statements. I would appreciate it.

Thank you for correcting Ms. Garcia on her misinformation of who said Victoria was knocked out. I do remember reading that statement on a posted police report. You bring up another good question? Can we really trust that the people on here are really who they say they are. However, I do believe she is the real deal. Who else would gain from comments about book deals. idk.

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November 30, 2008

christina garcia

And Elec…notice how you corrected me and didn’t attack me? And how I responded to this? Yes, I understand your questioning who I am, but just try and understand there are so many lies and rumors that I do make mistakes at times afterall…I am human. : )

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Ok question for Electronica on what methods and tactics should be used to combat bullying and teen violence.

Electronica: to legally combat bullying. Why not turn the tables on the bullies by letting law enforcement set up a decoy &ldquovictim&rdquo, such as a typical gay student in a school suspected to have bullies that are beating up gay students, or a black student who goes to a school which is 90% white and where racial bullying is suspected to occur, and give the &ldquovictims&rdquo the ability to record the events that take place and report the bullying to the law enforcement themselves?

This is the tactic that we use on other kinds of crime, it’s similar to what perverted justice attempts to do, and it’s similar to how the war on drugs is fought. Would you agree to give victims legal tools and tactics to work with the law enforcement to help track and monitor known/suspected bullies?

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Good analysis. I personaly will just start stating my opinion and if you agree (not you personally) you do and if you don’t we will agree to disagree.

I do not hate these girls. If you look at my blog to Electronica i am trying to be as honest an informative about my opinions and why I come to them as I can. I truly believe she is the one I would like to explain myself the most to. I think me and you will agree on that:)

Garcia and I will never agree so Please afford me my right to respond to her with my opinions even though sometimes, the anger comes through.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

oh and like ppl who drink and drive and kill someone they often get just a few years in prison. and if they just drink and drive dont kill anyone they dont even go to jail only if they do it like five times they do. but drunk drivers kill children all the time id be much more afraid of ppl like that than april but they dont get anything and april must go to prison? and kayla maybe never hit someone in her entire life but she must go to prison?

i never heard of some girl beaten to death by another girl i mean if theres no weapons like knives or guns. i never even heard of some girl getting hurt real bad like going to hospital for months. but i heard about girls getting hurt real bad by drunk drivers even killed. but everyone says these girls must go to prison cause they could have killed tori and like no one says you must go to prison if you drink and drive but dont kill anyone.

and eeryone says we must punish the girls very hard so no girl beats up another girl again but no one says that about drinking and driving. but i bet if you just put everyone who drinks and drive in jail for three months it helped save lots of girls from getting killed like hundreds more than ever got killed getting beat up by another girl. and thats just jail im not talking going to prison. but ppl dont like that lots of you drink and drive or you know someone who drinks and drives dont you and like movie stars and politicians drink and drive so no jail.

but when its girls beating up another girl they must go to prison right away. it doesnt make sense it doesnt add up its only cause it was on tv a lot and cause its easy to be mean to kids.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronic just for the record, I do think adults should receive long prison sentences for violent crimes. I do think it’s wrong that murderers receive less time than drug dealers. I do think it’s wrong that people convicted of domestic violence receive less time than people caught with some weed in their car. I’m very consistent here, I’m saying we should focus in exclusively on violent crimes and give our longest most severe sentences to violent criminals.

And I’m not going to try to convince you to agree on the punishment. I want to know if we can agree on the tactics and methods, would you like to see law enforcement put more resources into investigating, and setting up sting operations to arrest known and suspected bullies?

I’m sure that it wouldn’t be difficult for law enforcement to go to any school in America and find some victims of bullying, and pay those victims to report and give information about crimes taking place. A lot of crimes taking place are what we would consider hate crimes which by their very nature mean tougher, harsher sentences, tougher sentences for people who bully gay people, racial minorities, women, and religions. I’m not saying these girls in this case hated Victoria, but the law as it is today decides that if you hate the victim you should receive more time.

Maybe we should try and find out through a lie detector test whether or not Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper hate Victoria. Mainly I’ve moved on from questions of punishments to what tactics you find acceptable when combating this problem.

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Garcia – Continuing to blame the police for all of your daughers problems is not setting a good example for this teenager. Everyone becomes confused about the facts and misspeaks. But, try to refrain from causing this teenager anymore distrust for authority than she already has. Who will she turn to in a time of trouble? She might turn to the wrong crowd and end up in exactly the situation your daughter is in now.

Your lack of attention to details in this case you are now blaming on the sheriff to. Wow. I have seen a recent interview with the parents of Victoria and I do not see them saying anything about their daughter being trapped into lying by this sheriff.

For God sake give this victim some kind of respect. Stop accusing her of lying now, even if you try to sugar coat it with, blaming that on the sheriff to.

If anyone thinks I am to hard on you so be it. Anytime I see you trying to say things negatively towards the victim and then use a cover story I will respond.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronic just for the record, I do think adults should receive long prison sentences for violent crimes. I do think it&rsquos wrong that murderers receive less time than drug dealers. I do think it&rsquos wrong that people convicted of domestic violence receive less time than people caught with some weed in their car. I&rsquom very consistent here, I&rsquom saying we should focus in exclusively on violent crimes and give our longest most severe sentences to violent criminals.

And I&rsquom not going to try to convince you to agree on the punishment. I want to know if we can agree on the tactics and methods, would you like to see law enforcement put more resources into investigating, and setting up sting operations to arrest known and suspected bullies?

I&rsquom sure that it wouldn&rsquot be difficult for law enforcement to go to any school in America and find some victims of bullying, and pay those victims to report and give information about crimes taking place. A lot of crimes taking place are what we would consider hate crimes which by their very nature mean tougher, harsher sentences, tougher sentences for people who bully gay people, racial minorities, women, and religions. I&rsquom not saying these girls in this case hated Victoria, but the law as it is today decides that if you hate the victim you should receive more time.

Maybe we should try and find out through a lie detector test whether or not Britini Hardcastle and April Cooper hate Victoria. Mainly I&rsquove moved on from questions of punishments to what tactics you find acceptable when combating this problem.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Amyv, Christina, perhaps both of you would feel better if you put on boxing gloves and agreed to enter the ring for a sparring session?

I can see that you both dislike each other a lot.

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November 30, 2008

christina garcia

I havAll doubt has been removed in my mind that you are some how related to the other side and in a personal way. But it doesn’t even matter, the truth is the truth here ANy, you nor anyone else can hide it PERIOD! You said I should look at a statment I made about Tori and apply it to myself hmm….maybe I do have some issues with myself, to come here day after day for my daily verbal beating, yes beating! I DO NOT double talk, you and others may not like what I have had to say but its always benn the TRUTH! I chose today to no longer be on here, I am deleting my yahoo account so as not to be tempted to come back, go ahead and gloat if you think you ran me off lol but the laughs on you, because now you’ll have to lash out on someone else, or continue to talk trash about Mercades and I when we’re not even here to defend ourselves..

Gomp…it was nice talking to you, and thank you for everything. and everyone else who has given me just plain respect even if we didn’t agree.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Christina, it would be sad if you did that, but I understand how hard it must be to stand up to all the irrational attacks. There are people here who have honest questions, and that is as it should be, but I see a lot of irrationality creeping in, and there is one individual here who appears to be truly psychotic in their hatred (hatred, not anger), and that has brought out the worst in others. Still when the facts emerge we will see how many people will dare to admit they were wrong about some things.

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

GregS – I agree with every statement you made to Electronica. You have said it in a way that I was not able to put into words. What is the deterent if no punishment is given?

Society is not hard enough on violent criminals. All of the ones you named above. I do agree jails are over crowded with drug related crimes that get much harder punishment than violent crimes. However, a mother of a teenager whos son or daughter was sold drugs to at a middle school by an adult might have a different opinion on that one then use. Please allow me a little humor in a not so humorous situation. I have not heard it called weed in years. lol. They are so many new names for it now I can’t keep up.

I can not try to make myself any clearer to Electronica than I have already. But, I think you have just stated exactly how I would have responded to her last post.

As for your comment about me and Garcia. Yes I do not like this woman. However, putting on boxing gloves is not my style. I will spar with the best of them if I believe in something so strongly. Never in a physical way. I will not stoop to that level or I would not be on here.

Scott – Yes, I do have an iron will. Although, my family would probably describe me more as stubborn as a mule. If I believe in something strongly I do not let go. Sometimes to a fault. Maybe I would make a good prosecutor.lol. However, I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
As you can tell I can not tolerate violence. I also will not tolerate what I feel is being unfair to victims. We see an awful lot of that in the court system and sometimes I feel this is why people get away with crimes. So if I appear to be over zealous sometimes know where I am coming from.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Gomp while I think it would be nice if Christina stay because it gives us an insiders perspective, if you think things are bad now, how bad are things going to get on this site if we get some sorta verdict or conclusion to the trial that gives all the teens community service with no real punishment?

Christina is being treated as the “devil” because she’s the mother of one of the accused. While this site isn’t nearly as harsh as YouTube or some of the other blogs, can we really blame her for not wanting to post here when emotions are heating up? And if the girls do get community service as Scott says, and as Electronica advocates, I think it’s going to make a lot of people extremely angry, and not all people are as rational as we are.

I’m all for including all the parents in the debate and discussion. I think in order to understand the mindset of the girls involved, we have to communicate with their parents. Also from a perspective of trying to figure out how to solve these problems, we should be more supportive of the parents rather than pinning blame on them, because that doesn’t solve anything at all.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Amyv and Christina are both parents, both have teenage daughters. You two are on the same side.
So why can’t you work together to reduce teenage violence? Christina has a unique perspective which might actually be helpful.

But of course you can argue and fight over the trial which in my opinion is probably over because I expect the girls to accept the plea deals. I’m focused on solving the problem of how do we prevent this from happening to your daughters, and how do you protect girls like Electronica from this sort of violence?

I don’t even have kids but I recognize that this is a problem. So why can’t the two of you?

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Amyv, the drug issue is simple, if an adult can sell children cigarettes that are as addictive as crack and cause cancer, if adults can sell soft drinks in school which are addictive and which cause obesity, heart disease and diabetes, and if adults can use the media to trick little girls and boys into hating themselves, by teaching girls to think they need to be thin to be loved, and teaching boys not to love other boys but to shoot them, well then don’t we have bigger problems to worry about than the neighborhood drug dealer?

I agree that it’s wrong for children to be sold drugs, I think only adults over 18 should be sold drugs, but children are already sold products which contain drugs. Coke and Pepsi contain caffeine which is a drug, and as a drug it has qualities similar to meth. So we can sell caffeine to children, but if we sell meth to a child it’s different even if its physiologically the same?

I’m not a doctor, but I know meth and caffeine have very similar physiological effects. And then we have Redbull, which I think is basically just like meth, I don’t know if you’ve ever drank a Redbull or even read whats in it, but it’s marketed to teenagers and sold to anyone with money, including a child, yeah thats right you could tell your 6 year old to go buy a Redbull and they’ll sell it to them.

I’m not saying it’s ethical to sell drugs to children, it’s clearly unethical. But to lock teenagers up for decades for being caught with some crack in their pocket, or to lock an adult up for decades for selling marijuana, but to let a rapist of murderer, or pedophile get 5 years in prison, is injustice, and it’s unethical. That has to be stopped.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Electronica .
I didn’t pick on her all year long not that this was my main point . Also special needs does not mean mentally retarded . I am not disagreeing with you at all as far as my conduct was concerned . I am 47 yeras old back in 1974 there were few laws in place to protect kids from bulling kids if we would have been charged with anything my mother thought I was as guilty as those that did far worse . She made me understand that when I laughed and supported those that bully i became the bully so if you thought that charges should have been brought in this case than i woudn’t have been able to hide from what I had done. This pont was in direct response to Christine”s claim that her daughter was just a bad friend defense . I cannot imangine the type of person i would have become if my mother had played that the others were doing the abusing and i was only doing the laughing and encouraging .If those laws were in place and enough people were outraged then she would have had the protection she had every right to expect. I am listinening to what you said about Aprils sentence . Please tell me what you think is just do you think that punishment should also be strong enough to hep deter other from this same course .

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I agree that violent criminals are not dealt with harshly enough. And people should not do time for minor drug offenses. There are many things that could be done to improve the situation but lawmakers don’t seem to have the nerve or the will to do anything, and the legal profession is firmly committed to helping criminals escape from punishment.
In this case it is hard to decide on what is appropriate punishment. So much should depend on whether there is any feeling of remorse, and on the capacity for rehabilitation. We just don’t know enough do we. But I like my idea of isolation with the opportunity to practice yoga and meditation. Believe me, if you take away TV and video games and leave them with nothing else to do, they might try it. But the ACLU will probably say that idea is cruel and invasive.
At present, do these girls have any incentive to change their attitude? They are told that their freedom depends on allowing their lawyers to attack the victim again. If they don’t agree to that type of defense, they risk harsh sentences. So the system is set up to reward cruelty toward the victim. No incentive to feel remorse.
Electronica, I also have a cold today, drinking lots of juice and watching football and resting. Hope you feel better.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I absolutely agree about Christina and Amy. They should be working together to fix the problem and get past what I see as mainly a personality conflict. Amy might disagree with that of course. I also think that it would be helpful to include more of the families of the accused in the discussion. Of course you see what would happen, though. It would only bring more haters out without more regulation of these blogs it would be a feeding frenzy. So yes I understand Christina’s decision.
The really vicious ones will always find new targets for their hatred and it is up to those who value reason to make sure they don’t do any harm.

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November 30, 2008

navigator

LOL… Greg… If I may answer this also for having a young daughter… NO! Because Garcia has proven to be a bad excuse of a parent and working with her would not solve anything except for her trying to make some money off of it somehow.

Amy, You are right, I should not have said that GOMP should not post here… I was frustrated with him thinking that the only opinion here that matters is his and that everything I say is in anger or over emotional. I am not angry at anyone here. My problem has been reading post after post of lies and people believing in them for the pitty of a person who spawned the one person who could have prevented or stopped the incident from happening. I think that what ever Garcia says should be taken with a grain of salt and what ever she presents to be evidence to be taken lightly – graphic artist can change things you know. So I just want everyone to know that someone is still looking out for the victim and to me that is the most important thing.

Gomp: Yes, you may be my proof reader all you want. Sometimes it is late when I get a chance to post here… so sorry if you have a problem with that.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Gomp Another excelent analogy,My answer is still the same with the emotion that case invokes you are going to be attacked .Electronica has called me cruel . Everybody who knows me would disagree and that was for just stating an opinion on what I thought April should receive .She is passionate about her beliefs . She sees a bunch of adults out for blood .I don’t know how wrong she is .I can either respond or not respond ..I will not respond to those who call for vigel -anti viloence .This case is before the courts and that is where it will be decided If Nav or anyone else attacks your statements or your integrity then you have to be ready to take it,or attack back or ignore it . When we make these statements we reveal a little of who we are and we open ourselves to harsh critisizem.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Strange, I just felt a cold presence emanating from my computer and I knew before I turned it on…of course! She’s back! And with a brand new attack line “I was frustrated with him thinking that the only opinion here that matters is his…” Does anyone here agree with that? I don’t know. To me it sounds like a serious case of projection.

And no, silly, it is not your spelling that is a problem. It is your hostility and apparent inability to accept any other point of view except your own.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Phil, you can get called cruel and a lot of other things without feeling that you are personally attacked. I establish a kind of profile of who is doing the talking and with Electronica you know she has a way of expressing herself that is direct and honest and there is no offense intended in anything she says. You are right that we all open ourselves up to being attacked for what we say here, but what if you are being attacked for someone’s consistent misrepresentation of what you say and who you are? It’s as if I constantly said to you, “Phil, why do you hate puppies?” And there is no way you can prove you don’t hate puppies.

Honest disagreement is good, and if I get angry at someone here sometimes, yes that is a weakness but in general we get along . And you may not have read back to when I started blogging here, Amy was so helpful all along and made me see things I didn’t see, and yes, I acknowledge it when I am clearly wrong. And I’m still learning.

I don’t think we should have to establish ground rules here and believe it or not I don’t hate anyone here. You can attack my reasoning and my integrity (because no one is even close to perfect) but it gets tiresome to be constantly having to defend yourself against false charges.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Oh, and believe it or not I’m having fun here.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
I did not take her statement that way .You are right its not the same
intent as some of the wars between you Amy Nav and Christina
Sorry Electria

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Is their a new way to catch a cold off of the internet because I am also coming down with something. lol. Electronica we all feel the same crumby flu feeling.

I would like to make some things perfectly clear to everyone on this blog. I have stayed consistent with my opinions since the beginning.
I am not physically violent and never have been.

I am not here to be in a popularity contest with anyone. Or to lead other people in a crusade against anyone. My problems with certain people are mine and mine alone. I know you all have minds of your own. So, if my opinion is also shared by others it does not mean I am out on a witch hunt.

I am on here to try to make some sense out of a pretty senseless crime. Bullying has been around for many years, but it has been taken to a whole new level. Their is a difference when you have a wide audience such as the internet to show your bullying to. Hence, the emotional toll it takes on the victim I believe is worse than the beating. Unless of course you go to far and kill or disable someone for life.

If stronger laws were in place to try and deter bullying years ago, we would not be in the mess that has been created for our teenagers today. Bullying should not be acceptable anywhere. Not in schools, on the streets, on the internet, etc.

I do know their are corrupt police officers just as their are corrupt people in every profession. What disturbs me on this site is the level of total distrust for people in authority. What are we teaching Electronica? We are backing up her already strong belief that you can not trust the very people you should be able to go to for protection.

You can not blame the sheriff for this act of violence. You can blame him if you think it was inappropriate to show it on national t.v. I for one am mixed on this opinion. First I am sure it did the victim more psychological harm. Although, she should not be ashamed she did nothing wrong. Second, I wish someone had done this a long time ago. Because, I was truely unaware of just how many attacks and jumpings were being performed and placed on the internet for peoples fewing pleasures.

When Columbine happened I thought this country had taken some dramatic and much needed changes of attitude about bullying. What ever happened to zero tolerance at school? Because from everything I hear and see that is not in place anymore. That is not just available to girls it should also be available to boys as well. But, they can not keep enough control to even protect the teachers from being beaten.

Electronica made a statement that she had just been pushed around by some girls. She also stated it was only pushing. I know I am not quoting you directly word for word and please do not be offended because of this. You should not have been pushed by anyone. period.

Jumping back and forth here but trying to make some points. The sheriff was mistaken saying 8 people beat up the victim. Still the debate on whether it was two or four. We can find that out if their is a trial. Or if more of the attack is showm. Also can it can be debated all day long if this was planned or not. I myself see to much evidence to prove otherwise. His statements about animalistic behavior, once again I agree. Should a public official make these comments I would have to say no. However, they are human and can make mistakes from emotion like all of us. Once again, do not know this man just trying to sort things out.

Stating over and over again that this is all some sort of conspiracy to condemn these girls, I just do not get. They did commit a crime. So you can’t blame that on anyone. Accusing him of manipulating the victim into lying (the use of the word lying was not mine) what would be the point? This comment I do find offensive towards the victim. Because that is accusing her of being a liar and I said before I will not tolerate that without speaking my mind.

As far as the victims family goes on this opinion, Electronica can you you please try to find the site from their interview with Good Morning America and post it here. Because, for the life of me I do not remember them indicating they felt this way in any way shape or form but that can only be proven by hearing it out of their own mouths.

So, if I have seemed hard on Christina I meant to be. I do not apologize. I believe if you read some of my prior post I was reaching the conclusion that I might understand more about why her daughter does not know how to react when faced with difficult decisions.

If I feel, and I do, that the victim of this crime is being attacked in anyway I will defend her. Do I know her no? Should that matter? no? You see I am able to come to someones defense when I see injustice against whether I know them or not. I do not know every victim of every crime I see on t.v. but do I feel compassion and sympathy for them. Absolutely.

What I am trying to get across, and I think poorly, is that actions should have consequences. And blaming other people, inappropriate punishments, or none at all will allow people to think bullying will continue to be tolerated in our society.

What gives me the right to make these statements? I do have a teenage daughter. I deserve and so does every other human being on the face of this earth to be able to let her go out of the house without having to worry about being bullied. Without having to be worried about her being beaten to a pulp. Without having to be worried about the sickos who are out their preying on innocent children. This goes for boys as well. I also have the same right to expect this safety for myself. So am I over zealous with my opinions on these matters. You beat. Once again I will not apologize for this. Because, I can guarantee you that if this girl had been anyones daughter on this blog, we probably would not have cut anyone any slack.

This is our rights not a privledge to be taken away by people who do not know how to control their violent tendancies.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

amy i said your blinded by anger cause you caled the girls animals and said they were trying to kill tori and stuff like that. you always assume the worst about them but it doesnt have to be true.

and amy i dont wanne get between you and ms. garcia i get into enough trouble in real life arguing with grownups. and like i said i dont argue with moms about their kids. if toris mom was here i wouldnt argue with her. and btw you act like you were toris mom and its sort of near impossible to argue with you.

and amy and phil i dont think many girls kill themselves over getting beat up once. they kill themselves when they cant make things any better or when they just wanne let ppl know they are unfair. thats why i think that girl phils friends bullied was worse of than tori. and thats why id think if you stick april and kayla to prison for years theyd be much worse.

like tori didnt have to get beat up again i mean britti told her you learned you lesson and theres no reason to think those girls would beat her up again if she didnt thretened them again and thrash talk about them again. but that girl phils friends bullied she i bet couldnt do anything to stop it could she. and if your in prison for years and your a kid than its like forever and theres nothing you can do and no one cares is why kids kill themselves in prison a lot im sure.

and amy like if you spank your kid that means you meant to do physical harm no? doesnt mean you should go to prison. i agee it was much much worse than spanking but that doesnt mean they meant to inuure her. like with britti im not sure but with april im actually sure she didnt wanne injure tori just beat her up its obvious from how she hit her. like i think the point was to get her to fight ad if she didnt agree at least beat her up a little on camera so everyone knows shes their not afraid of tori. and theres no point injuring her just punishing her. but you cant have them spank her that would be gay.

and i think britti is like having problems she got to like it too much like shes sadistic she should see a shrink a lot but like if she didnt do this before and didnt know shes so bad i dont think she should be dammed forever and be a felon forever like real criminals its not right.

and amy you say tori was precise on who hit her how many times but she changed her mind at first it was kayla hit her ten times and later only three times. like i said i dont think tori knews its important to meke a diff between what you believe and what you know for sure. so im not saying shes a liar im saying she wasnt careful about what shes been saying.

and amy you can find a lot of info on theledger dot com and just go to news and then crime and click on the mug shots of the mulberry eight. also try tracingthemotive dot blogspot dot com for links but dont trust everything the boy says there hes often mistaken but the links are good. theres links on this site too like transcript of what they said on the second vid just like play with the links at the top here youll find it. also on topix if you go to the forum that you posted on just go backwards and youll see lots of good links but go back many months. also go to tbo dot com and search for lakeland video beating on the main page and youll get lots of good info. and go to youtube and seach for that too and youll get videos not just the beating but like tv shows and stuff about the beating.

and amy i dont remembr kayla telling the police about going watching the vids in someones house what excatly did she say? i the persecutor said something but i didnt hear kayla say it.

and amy theres juvies and juvies. like some are for kids who arent violent and these are more like strict bording schools and some are like real prisons for kids i mean walls and barbed wire and guards and stuff. that girl you know couldnt been in a real juvie if she got scared by two days in jail just waiting to see a judge. and i read florida juvies are real real bad just not as bad as prisons.

and amy boot camps are like for months never years it wouldnt make much sense to have it for five years they wouldnt learn anything new there just running around and playing soldiers all this time. and like they dont do school much at all so thats not good if they go there for years. im not against boot camps if they dont kill them but not for so long it could be like boot camp first and then juvie and then home arrest and so on.

i just dont think its far to put them away for so long i think its just unfair and cruel not so cruel like grownup prison but still unfair. and you never explained why its fair.

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November 30, 2008

Scott

Amy, people forget what kind of emotional damage was done to Tori in the assault and imprisonment. No one can change my mind that those girls really wanted to punish Tori emotionally and make her suffer. And they did. I think that was more important to them than physically hurting her. And those girls know that people committ suicide over what happens on the intenet and in being taped on embarrassing and humiliating videotapes. Yet those girls put Tori through the video grinder with no regard for her at all.

And Electria make a good point about how Tori’s biological mother got 10 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter with a pen knife and some people want Hardcastle and Cooper to face similar stretches in the slammer but it doesn’t add up. Brittini and April deserve jail sentences, probabtion and counseling. But they don’t deserve 10 year prison sentences for what they did to Tori. Especially when you compare it to what adults do in violent crimes and the often questionable sentences they get got committing those crimes.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Amyv I never had people I could go to for protection, and thats the point. Bullying teaches people that there is no authority you can go to for protection, you either protect yourself or you get bullied for eternity. I’m pushing for creation of an authority, but as it is today there is nobody to turn to when you are bullied except street gangs.

The reason so many people join gangs is because there is no authority they can trust. Why do you think gangs became so popular in cities? It’s because the cities were so corrupt at the top that all the most vulnerable people had to band together and form gangs to protect themselves from abuse. Thats the natural response and when I speak of natural law, it’s very predictable, if you bully someone, when they get tired of being bullied they’ll join forces with the other victims of that bully and form a “gang” or “mob” and these gangs and mobs eventually become criminal mafias because authority cannot be trusted.

How can we trust an authority that wants to lock non violent people in prison for a decade while letting rapists, murders, and other violent people get light sentences? The non violent people HAVE to join gangs just to survive in this environment. It sucks, I want to fix the justice system but if that cannot be done then the only option left for victims of bullying and crime is to form gangs and protect themselves.

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November 30, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I think I posted this earlier but, I am not sure. Yes people have commited suicide over being bullied. When I was in 10th grade a girl at my high shool did. I did not her very well but, I was good friends with her cousin.

She was constantly bullied by a group of girls at her bus stop and at school. I did not know this until after the fact. To put it very bluntly her mother came home from church to find this poor girl in her room with a shot gun wound to the head. Without getting to graphic it is a horrendous scene.

This girl was very attractive and jealousy was the motive behind all the picking. What I could never understand was so was the main girl who was doing the picking was a very attractive girl herself. As a matter of fact she was the girl I think everyone their would have most wanted to look like.

Right after the suicide I was in the bathroom and this group of girls came in. I did not know all of the details then. However, I could not believe what came out of this girls mouth. She was actually trying to impress me with her comments. She stated “I am glad she killed herself she was a waste of breath”. My mouth dropped to the ground. I can honestly tell you she from then on to me was one of the ugliest people I have ever seen.

This girl continued to try to become my friend. For the life of me I do not know why. I made it quite clear what I thought about her as a human being. So, yes their are several cases where bullying has led to suicide both males and females. Most recent example as stated above where a mother was actually involved in the bullying and egged it on. Someone please tell me what this adult got for her part in this. I have the feeling I am going to be very disappointed with the verdict.

I have so many things I want to address with you but I have to get off right now. Got to eat sometime. lol.

El – Believe me if you needed someone to come to your defense, you might very well want me in your corner.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

ms. garcia ok. i was just frustrated cause everyone seems connfused and now you too. and i dont know if tori was lying or if she like really belived it im not sure id remember things as they happened if i was beat so bad i couldnt even rememebr everything and she said she doesnt.

amy ms. gracia didnt say tori didnt say it she just said she doesnt think she said it so i dont think it counts as misinformation i mean she even said she may be mistaken.

phil im not sure why you said sorry im ok. and yes i didnt mean to insult you i just think your punishment is ery cruel and unfair. i know what you meant regarding merc i agree she should have tried to stop it. and i dont think merc or you are as guilty as those who did the bullying. oh and you said you made her 7th year a nightmare so thats why i was thinking it went on for a long time and that can be very bad.

amy it was misdemener beating it says so in the police docs its on the ledger site see affidavits.

greg i talked to you before on the other page but you ignore what i say and you say i said stuff i didnt say. you said i should apologize cause i called you a killer and sai you wanne kill those girls. i didnt say that. idk what else to say.

and everyone i wrote what i think is the right punishment for april on the plea offers page.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

ppl lots of you like run away from what i write. i say phils punishment for the girls is unfair and cruel and like many of you dont say it is or isnt. so before i go to other stuff like how to stop bullies id like to know what you all think and if you think its not cruel and unfair pls explain exactly why. id like to know cause i dont understand. lke scott said what he thinks but i dont think everyone else just changes the subject and doesnt really say this or that.

like i explained its unfair and cruel for two reasons.

reason one is its so much more cruel than the crime. like i said if i was april id rather get beaten each week like she beat tori and have it go on youtube as well than go to prison for five years. so thats like 260 times worse than aprils crime. ok she was partly to blame for the abuse done by the other girls. but also theres being a felon after prison and not going to college and all that bad stuff her entire life so i think thats a lot too. but anyway say the punihment is only a hundred times more cruel than the crime. thats still too much!!!

reason two its unfair if you look at grownups how they get punished. likei said they dont go to prison for misdemener beatings just jail if that and they often get less than april if they kill someone after they drink and drive and dont get much more when they hurt or even kill out of anger. and i explained its worse for kids in prison like one year for a grownup is like three years to kid id say. so its so much worse for april than for grownups!

so id like to know how can you say its fair and its not cruel.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Amy, first of all I want to be clear that my little example of peasants on witch hunts was not directed at you.
On the subject of teaching children about trusting authority, I have to agree with Greg that children should be very careful about who they trust. I said before most cops I have known are decent and honest, but that isn’t always true. There is another problem. You may remember a case, it was in Florida (sorry, it’s not my fault) where a child molester posed as an authority figure and persuaded a young girl to follow him. From the surveillance camera you could see she didn’t resist, she just obeyed him because he represented an authority figure, with some kind of uniform. It was about four years ago, and though this monster is on death row today, it is too late for the little girl. Not a nice subject and some will be angry that I brought it up. But this is not the 1950s and you need to be careful. As the Russians say, trust, but verify.

Greg is right about how Triads and Mafias start, as movements of the common people against oppression. If governments were not corrupt there would be no Triads and Mafias, and the people wouldn’t support them like they do.

Amy, you may think I am too cynical and sending a wrong message, but this is what my conscience tells me is right. I have no children, but I have a friend who has two young daughters. I was always pestering him to send his kids to martial arts lessons. He would nod and change the subject. One day I showed him a very disturbing video. It was one of those “girl fight” videos that so many people think are good clean fun. It showed a young girl being knocked to the ground and kicked in the head repeatedly as she lay there. My friend watched in silence and a few days later signed up his daughters for tae kwon do lessons. You may think I was meddling, but all I did was show him the evidence and let him make up his own mind. And I would give the same advice to anyone with kids, and if I had kids, you can be sure they would learn self-defense and be aware of the scams and tricks that people get taken in by all the time.

Of course I would also tell the kids that there are many good people out there and life is beautiful if you are surrounded by good friends.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, It’s hard to give a number of years or months that would be an appropriate sentence because I think it should depend on what the girls’ attitudes are, if they feel remorse, or what are their capacities for changing their behavior for the better. Also whether the sentence is cruel or just right depends on where they serve the time. A week in a prison with brutal criminals could be worse than years in a place where you can continue your education and have some freedom and counseling. Also you know how I keep mentioning Yoga and Tai Chi and I think that would be good for them.

So I don’t want to be cruel and vindictive and I don’t think Victoria wants that either. The best thing for Victoria would be if they could all feel remorse and be reconciled and move on. The important thing is to create a society where young people understand that there is more to life than parties and drinking and living from day to day with no future and no hope.

I know we need deterrence and punishment too because there are evil people who can’t be reformed or don’t want to be reformed. But I don’t know if any of these girls are that way. Even Brittani Hardcastle, if she is the way she is because she suffered abuse, then maybe that can be dealt with through counseling and therapy. Of course it is possible she will disappoint us and not change for the better, but since I don’t know I can’t say. All I can do is say what I would like to see and we should provide the opportunity for them to become better, and the rest is up to them.

So I don’t think just handing out a sentence of a number of years like 2 or 3 years means much by itself until we specify what kind of 2 or 3 years we are talking about. Is it 2 or 3 years in prison with criminals and a permanent record as a felon? Or 2 or 3 years in an institution where they care about rehabilitating you and giving you a chance to become a better person? I would go for the latter choice.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

I think you underestimate how cruel humiliation is, and the fact that it’s on tape. A perfect example although I don’t like to use this comparison, is a woman who gets raped. Rape is considered a violent crime, but what makes it particularly cruel is the loss of honor and humiliation that the victim suffers, the stigma of being a rape victim, the loss of trust for humanity, there are a lot of dynamics in play which cause permanent changes in a person, they never truly get over the experience, and they often never feel safe again in their life.

Rapists should receive 10 years to life, not because of the level of physical damage done to the victim, but the level of psychological and emotional damage. So the reason we don’t think it’s too cruel for these girls to get 5 years (which is half the punishment someone convicted of rape or murder would receive), is because while this crime isn’t fatal, and while this crime isn’t a sex crime, the taping of the crime is why they should get the 5 years because if we allow people to start taping their victims, it’s going to reach a point where a bully will be able to do as much psychological damage as rapists do.

It’s one thing to get beat up in a normal situation. It’s another to be locked in a house, beat up by multiple people while someone records it on tape and the person recording it is having some sick “ooh yeah baby” type of moment. What did they plan to do with this tape? Watch it over and over again? Show it to everyone in school? Whatever they had planned for that tape was cruel and evil, and this is the main reason I lean towards giving them the harsh/cruel treatment.

Victoria seems to have been very much emotionally and psychologically damaged by this event,she doesn’t trust anyone anymore, she probably has nightmares, and she probably doesn’t like being in situations which resemble that. The permanent damage is already done, and the best thing that can happen is for Mercades at least, to someday apologize to Victoria. If April and Brittini Hardcastle could apologize to Victoria and her family, it would do a lot to make people not see them as remorseless monsters, but even the parents of Brittni Hardcastle and April Cooper aren’t apologizing. They aren’t displaying remorse and the absolutely have to do this, and what about that girl who was making those animalist noises? I think the reason people see them as animals is because we heard her going “ooh yeah baby” and from the looks of their faces they seemed to be enjoying themselves a little bit too much.

How is the girl who made that sick noise supposed to explain herself? Why would anyone believe she feels any remorse if she can watch someone get beat up and rather than feel empathy, she enjoys it? She’s a sadist, and the proof is right there on tape. She’s not receiving ANY punishment.

These girls should have never have made that tape. But because they did and because they intended to spread it and further damage the victim in a way which cannot be measured, we have to treat this differently from an ordinary situation.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

gomp i think it must be grownup prison if they got charged as adults no? and permanent record too and be felons. and i think thats what ppl like nav and phil mean they didnt say juvie and i said prison and being a felon when i said its unfair.

and im still not sure if you agree 5 years adult prison for april is cruel and unfair.

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November 30, 2008

navigator

In the Orient all children receive defense training and this has helped dramatically with the violence in that region. I am going to have to – for once – agree with GOMP on this ONE. Amy had stated something about the position of the no violence in schools act… unfortunatly, now the bullying is being taken to private areas away from schools, which is much more dangerous. A friend of mines son was lured to a parking lot and beaten by a group of other kids. He was not very smart for going to the parking lot to begin with, but he was unaware that this group of kids wanted to hurt him. The question has been all along on a way to prevent these kind of beatings in the future. Why not have martial arts training for all children in American schools. Number one.. Martial arts teaches you how to NOT fight first and then teaches you how to defend yourself. If every child received this training then when one wants to bully, he will have to wonder to himself how well the other child knows how to defend, and even defeat them. This would deter many from wanting to bully and also give kids the confidence to stand up for themselves to not be bullied and be able to walk away with pride instead of bringing a gun to school to solve the problem.

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November 30, 2008

Scott

Amy, you made an interesting point in an earlier post today about how as soon as the beating of Tori was over Shumaker and Ashley show up and watch the videos with Kayla, April and Cara. Ain’t that a coincidence? No not really. I’ve said all along that those 2 guys knew what was going down. Tori’s friend Christine according to her testimony even saw both of them at the front door when she dropped Tori off and Tori says in her sworn testimony that they were standing guard at the front door and that Ashley even opened the front door during the assault to tell the girls to quiet down. Did Tori lie about that? I doubt it. Why would she? I’m sure one of the girls called or texted Shumaker and Ashley that the beating was over and to come over to watch the video and then drive the girls home. And they drove Kayla home and Kayla not by coincidence had her mothers video camera with her. Hmmm.

Greg I agree with you that rapists deserve a minimum of 10 years in jail and that the emotional damage they do to their victims is incalcuable.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

greg i agree the video made it worse but i disagree its as bad as rape i disagree a lot id rather get beat up every month for a year like tori and on youtube too than get raped. i just dont think its even close but i guess thats just my opinion.

and if you think its so bad than the cops should go to prison too cause they released the vid and told tv people to show it to everyone. i think that was real wrong not as bad as if it was rape but bad and they shouldnt have done it.

and greg you didnt explain why 5 years in prison is fair compared to how grownups get punished. you dont give april any slack for being a kid and not thinking it all through like did forget how you were when you were fourteen? i do lots of stupid stuff sometimes or even say stuff that hurts someone and dont think things through not in real life its much easier when im alone just writing on a blog i can think as long as i want. like do you care if april didnt see things like you do now and really didnt mean for it to be almost as bad as rape? why dont you say maybe she didnt realize how bad things can be for tori like do you really mean she was trying to hurt her forever i dont think so i dont she was thinking morwe than like a week ahead.

and you didnt explain why its ok to send kids to prison for the same time as grownups when its much worse for kids to be in prison and it feels like 3 times longer for them id say so really 5 years for a april is the same as 15 years for a grownup so hows that fair?

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

scott where do you get that info i didnt read that anywhere it doesnt add up.

nav its true ppl fight away from school a lot so they dont get suspended i think its a problem cause theres no grownups around at all but ill talk about that later.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

oh and also april was like with three much older girls and i dont think she should be so responsible for what they did i mean they are much older and kids are like responsible for younger kids ok but not older kids. and you get influenced a lot too if your with older girls and you look up to them and stuff. so again i think it matters that aprils young but no one seems to care. so i still think 5 years in prison is incredibly cruel and unfair for april.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Thanks, Nav, you’re not so bad after all. : )

This is what I’ve been talking about all along, when i first started blogging I said everyone should have the opportunity to take martial arts, including our defendants here. Teaching them martial arts could be a form of therapy and help them to feel remorse as well as self-defense and as you say teaches you not to fight. I have been studying tai chi for many years and I have been in situations where I used tai chi to save myself from a beating or worse. And usually you don’t have to fight because potential predators don’t like to attack if they understand that you will fight back. No,, they would rather pick on the helpless.
Everything I say and all the positions I take, I try to connect them into a coherent philosophy that relates to every aspect of life. I agree with Greg that punishments need to be harsh, and rape is a horrible thing that needs to be punished severely. There are certain categories of crime for which I have no tolerance. Also I do see that this case has aspects of rape about, and Talisa herself said as much.
Luckily I am not the one who decides the sentence. I try to look at the needs of society as a whole but also what is best for the victim. Of course seeing the guilty punished is important for the victim. But ultimately I think Victoria will only be truly over it if those who attacked her feel truly sorry and ask her for forgiveness. of course that may never happen. But I think it would be best for her if it did. And for all victims, including rape victims, that is a component of healing. While it is easy to fake remorse by shedding a few tears, I think that for this kind of crime remorse would have to be deep, because it would have to be proportional to the greatness of the offense, and I don’t think you could fake remorse that great. Do I think it will happen? Probably not, but here I am only saying what I think should happen. If not, we may have to go to Plan B and that means longer harsher sentences.

Where my commitment to eastern philosophy and martial arts comes int o the question of punishment is that I think studying martial arts and meditation can awaken compassion and if these girls received that kind of training for a few years it might lead them to feel the necessary level of remorse and that would be good for them and even better for Victoria. So when I talk about lenient punishment and I side with Mercades it is all connected to my commitment to eastern spirituality. (And I don’t mean to knock western religion here, if that is someone’s choice) Giving people the means to reform themselves is all part of help victims to heal.

Electronic, you know what I am going to say, 5 years in adult prison for April is cruel and it won’t make her better. It will make her worse. What will make her better is maybe a year or two in a facility where you get instruction in martial arts and meditation as well as more western kinds of counseling and therapy. And For Victoria I want her to take up martial arts and meditation too. Who knows, maybe they can all take martial arts together. Again, I don’t know if this is possible, I am only saying what should happen.

For Victoria, healing has many components, and I don’t know what she needs in the way of medical help, maybe therapies of various kinds, but the final healing will only come from being reconciled with those who attacked her.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronica but thats different for everyone. Psychological and emotional damage is subjective. So to you it’s not so bad to get beat up on tape and have it all over the internet,but some people would rather die than have that happen, and some people would rather go to prison, it totally depends on the person. This is why I compare it to rape, the fact that this sorta damage is the sort which some humans would never recover from. If you’d recover from this experience easily, then you are fortunate, but it’s not always that way.

This is what we have to factor into everything, we have to factor into the type of emotional damage not so much the amount. The type of damage is similar to rape, because you cannot measure the amount of damage this will do. Sure some individuals would rather experience being beat up on tape and having it spread over the net than be raped, but not all people, and yes some people would rather be beat up on tape than go to prison but not all people. In fact a lot of people would rather go to prison just to preserve their honor, even if it meant killing the girls.And others would kill themselves rather than have their reputation destroyed by the spread of the tape.

And this is what I mean, the taping of it brings it to another level, the sorta extreme level that people kill and die over.The level that people might actually choose to go to prison over, or maybe if they don’t go to prison, maybe they’ll want to get revenge over and beat these girls up and put that on the internet. Either way this sort of emotional damage is very serious and can lead to fatalities and this is why I recommend we treat it as serious.

It’s not a bar fight, it wasn’t even a fight.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Nav, of course you’re right about counseling being a joke, th e way the system is set up. I know people who have been in and out of prison all their lives, and they laugh at counseling. I know someone who has several convictions for armed robbery, and he has been going to counseling all along. He told me counseling was very useful to him, because it taught him to be more aggressive in taking what he wants. Did I mention that this guy was in for armed robbery?

So I know about the futility of counseling as things are now. One problem is the people who go into this line of work are not dedicated to help. To the counsellor it is just another job, and a lot of it is about paperwork and drawing a paycheck. The system is messed up and it starts with the failure of the education system. In NY we have teachers unions that actively block reform, so that’s one problem.

In martial arts you look for teachers who are dedicated and if you have the motivation you can become a better person, not just a good fighter. The trouble is, for people like April and Britt, they may have personalty disorders that would have to be treated first before they could do anything like martial arts, or that kind of training could make their condition worse. And since there are so few competent therapists and counsellors, it doesn’t look hopeful.

So, maybe, whatever I may hope for, the best practical solution may be punishment that is longer than I would like. I don’t want to be cruel, but the way the system is, there may not be another way. And Victoria would have to settle for never getting that apology and that would be sad.

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November 30, 2008

Electronica

nav i still dont see how its fair and why its not cruel. you dont explain you just say it qwas violent and they taped it. that doesnt explain much. like i explained why the punishment for april is so much worse than her crime but you dont explain anything. and like i know big crime doesnt happen as much as small crime but how does that matter here?

greg one could always say there can be lie one person who thinks that even like a slap in the public is worse than rape but that doesnt mean you should be sending kids who slap you in public to prison for many years. and you didnt explain why its fair when aprils just a kid and wasnt thinking like a grownup i yet gets punished much worse.

gomp thanks for your answer. i think two years is too long but if its a nice juvie not just prison juvie i think itd be unfair a bit but at least not so cruel.

anyway gn.

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November 30, 2008

Navigator

Gomp, in many ways I believe it is to late to teach martial arts to these girls. They seem to believe violence is the answer… teaching them martial arts will only give them a power over others. The only way it would work is if ALL children were taught. A bully will only get out of martial arts the way to beat the weaker down.. they will not learn to respect others if they choose not to. These girls have already proven they have no respect for others. It is like have a work out gyn at a prison… they get stronger while the people on the outside can not afford to go to the gym… and when the prisoner is released… they have additional power over the free public. Yes, I do believe that Tori should take martial arts… to learn to protect herself … because someday these girls will be released and they will want revenge on this and she needs to beable to help herself. I just don’t believe you can rehabilitate sadistic/ munipulative people.. seen it first hand over and over again.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronica no the cops shouldn’t go to prison for releasing the evidence. The cops should be praised for doing that, because now we know what the new trend is. If Victoria had not went to the cops then this tape would have still been spread all around, and still would have done just as much damage. The cops aren’t the ones who made the tape, and I don’t think you should punish people for releasing a tape someone else made. These girls made the abuse tape, these girls should take full and total responsibility for the damages caused by the tape they created. The girls who filmed the beating should pay the consequences of the video being on YouTube,not the cops.

It’s not wise to create a deterrent against the cops. We want to create a deterrent against people who abuse others on tape. So who made the tape? Put her in jail. And lets not forget these girls threatened Victoria after the abuse, knowing they had that tape from which to blackmail her, or continue their abuse at a later date..

Gomp and about the rapists, rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power, control, and torturing the victim.The rapist does not feel any empathy or remorse. Rapists however usually don’t put it on tape and upload it to YouTube, so rape victims at least have a chance at getting over the situation.Now in the case of child pornography, these kinds of rapists do make films of it and these kinds are the absolute worst kind for precisely that reason.

The problem of abuse is bad enough, we cannot measure how much damage is done by the actual acts, but when it’s recorded, then the person who recorded it intended to keep a lasting memory of that act. If they feel remorse or empathy wouldn’t you expect them to destroy the recording?

So if they keep it there are all sorts of evil things they can do with it. They can threaten to show the tape to the world, using blackmail tactics. “Either you do as we say from now on, or we will upload the tape to Youtube and show the world”

Or it could be “Either you do what we want or we will show this tape to your boyfriend.” or maybe they just wanted to keep the tape and watch it over and over again. But if people like us can barely watch the tape, what were these girls thinking in making the tape? Did they intend on watching it for years, bragging about how they got away with beating her up like that?

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronica I can’t believe you compared the beating Victoria went through to a slap in public, are you serious?

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November 30, 2008

GregS

Electronica I do remember how I was at 14, I was never that bad and I was a boy and boys were “supposed” to be violent. When I was 10 I might have jumped a person, but 10 is very different from 14, and even when I was involved in that, I didn’t do it to hurt the individual, only to keep myself from being bullied. So it was a situation more like either join in, or be the one being jumped.

When I was 14, the sorta behavior that April is involved with would have got me killed. People were beginning to carry knives around, and joining gangs, so that jumping people and bullying people had come to an end by the time I was a teenager.

By the time I was Victoria and Mercades age, people were carrying guns, and the bullies wouldn’t even fight fair, if you didn’t have a gun and they did, they could rob you or bully you and you couldn’t do anything besides either carry a gun yourself, or join their gang, or another gang. I guess because these are girls the level of violence isn’t at the level that it would be if this had happened to a guy.

If this situation which happened to Victoria were to happen to the typical guy gang member type, people would have died over it. In general I never was involved with beating anyone up on tape and I only remember joining into a jumping event out of fear of being jumped myself if I didn’t. So no I cannot relate to a 14 year old girl who is less mature than I was at 10 years old.

And Brittini Hardcastle’s behavior feels like the behavior of an alien. She’s 18 years old and still doesn’t know right from wrong? Why should I believe she ever will? So yeah you can put April Cooper in juvie or a special prision, but Brittini Hardcastle is an adult and belongs in adult prison.

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November 30, 2008

Navigator

Ah… we agree again gomp… scary isn’t it. Incompetence is in all aspects of the world today. Peopple used to take pride in their work and want to help people… that is long gone unfortunatly. This whole situation would have been different if it was Mayberry… lol

Electra: I have explained why such a harse sentence. Sorry it is not the answer you are looking for. These girls, whether 14 or older deserve to serve time for the crimes they commited. Adults are put in prison for the same offenses for the same amount of time. Some are put in for longer for even lessor offenses. The courts will need to determine the sentence… my opinion is that they deserve 5 years. It will help deter the onslaught of violence we are seeing in our young people today. Again, it is sad that it has to be this specific group to be the example… but so be it. I am tired of turning on the news daily here in Florida and seeing more and more of this violence. My daughter is not yet a teen but has been bullied at school by children who are being raised by parents who believe that it is ok to do so. That “if it is just a one on one fight, what’s the big deal” well… someday, one of two things is going to happen… either they are going to tape something just like this OR they will bully the wrong kid and that kid will bring a gun into school like columbine (sp). It is a pattern that needs to be stopped now. Parents need to be parents again and not “friends” to their kids. My daughter knows respect for others. She is very pretty and has alot of jeoulous girls who treat her bad… but then… she also has some really good friends as well.

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November 30, 2008

GregS

navigator Martial arts shouldn’t be taught to ALL children. Martial arts should be taught to the children seek spiritually enlightenment and who are selected out. It should be treated as an honor to be selected into a martial arts school just as it’s an honor to go to an ivy league university.

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November 30, 2008

Phil

To Electronica
I just read through your post on the plea deal blog , Before I comment I just want to say how much I appreciate your views re the long sentence I recommended for April . You really gave me pause to think about why i came up with 4 to 5 years .Your points hit home in many ways and I have found myself having some second thoughts . That being said if you found 4 to 5 years exceptionaly cruel I find 3 months exceptionaly low . How can 3 months be a payment for whay she did not only will this not teach April the lessons she needs to learn it just says to anybody else if you do something like this you won’t get much time .I would recomend 2 to 3 years for april and that is because she is 14 because she was with 17 year old girls they have more culpibility .Mayby 6to 8 years is to long for Brit h But anything less then 5 to 6 years to me would not be right . Brit m 4 to 5 and Merc 4 to 5 thier is enough evidence that this was pre aranged even if it got out of hand . I think this was a horendus crime not just the hitting but the planned humiliation if this was just another beat doen there wouldn’t be so many blogs abot the aussult . The internet is full of fights ,teen fighs ,girl fights and you name it but this goes beoynd bad in so many ways . When teenagers get sentenced in adult cout thy are sent to juvenile prisons and if the sentence is beyond thier 18th birthday then usually they are transfered to adult prison when they reach thier 18 th birthday .Hope to hear back with what you think and hope you feel better soon .

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November 30, 2008

Navigator

The five years is because they commited a violent act and video taped it… they did it with intent and deserve to serve an adult sentice in an adult prison. If they do not, you will see many more instances of this, if not worse, that will get this lessor sentence. Bullies will see it as just a small price to pay to get what they want. It needs to be a stong sentence to deter it from happening in the future. As I have said many times, they need to be humiliated to the same point as Tori and be taken from school to school across the country after their sentence and tell their story to help deter even more violence.

El… if you really are young then you may not be able to understand that the larger the consequence, the more unlikely the crime. If these girls need to be the example, then so be it. It has to start somewhere and “boot camp” nor Juvie is doing the trick it seems.

Gomp.. Counsiling is a jole to a munipulative person. I know one and he goes to classes for drug abuse and tells them just what they want to hear till he can get out… then he will be right back at it again. They know how to work the system and if they don’t know it now… they will learn quickly. They are angels today … lol… because they want you to believe that.

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November 30, 2008

gompertz

Greg and Scott I have to add that I think most rapists should be executed, and I don’t mean lethal injection. But even here there are degrees. Isn’t there a difference between a big brute who overpowers his victims and an 18 year old who commits statutory rape against someone a few years younger? In the second case I would be inclined to leniency.

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December 1, 2008

Scott

I’ve been reading that Victoria went to the police after she was assaulted. That’s not true. She called 911 for help not the police. Then the police got involved after that once it was obvious Tori was assaulted.

Electronica, I read reports and statements back in April which is how I know Tori’s Cocoa Beach buddy Christine said she saw the 2 guys at the front door. And the 2 guys watching the videos with the girls is well known.

Gomp wanting dropping the execution hammer on rapists! I like it for repeat offenders for sure. But the new Liberal elite coming into the White House in 2009 won’t toughen up penalities for for violent criminals.

And Gomp it would be crucial for Tori’s emotional healing if she reconcile with the girls who physically and emotionally brutalized her. But I can’t see that happening with any legitimacy because the defendants, their familes and even their pets blame Tori for everything involved with this sad case. So don’t loo for any reconciliation even though Tori and her parents would welcome that.

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December 1, 2008

Navigator

GregS: So you believe that martial arts is only for the eliteist in this country… interesting.

I am not talking about teaching martial arts to the teens of todays society. That could be a true diesaster. We need to start with the youngest. If They can learn respect for themselves and others at an early age, they will be more apt NOT to do harm in the future. The will also learn disciple that will help them with school work and social networking.

It should not be just for the elite. It needs to be for all.

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December 1, 2008

GregS

Navi, to be taught by the best martial arts teachers should be considered an honor reserved only for the people who have earned it.

Anyone should be able to pay and learn to kick and punch, but learning to kick and punch is not the same as learning the esoteric teachings. The esoteric teaching should be reserved for people who have earned the right to learn it.

Some young teens just aren’t ready to be taught any of the esoteric knowledge. Their minds just aren’t ready. In fact most adults don’t have minds ready to accept the most advanced and esoteric teaching. Only the top people should learn the “real” and “secret” teachings.

The rest can learn the basics of kicking and punching.

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December 1, 2008

GregS

Gomp I don’t like rapists either, but I don’t think it’s efficient to give them the death penalty. Some of them have skills and would make good workers/slave labor. I say we put a microchip in them, and then raise taxes on them so that when we do release some of them if we ever do, the victims will get a percentage of whatever profits they make in life.

This would actually have the practical effect of paying back the victim rather than letting the rapist have the easy way out of the death penalty. The rapists need to repay their debt to the victim as well as pay the high taxes so we can fund law enforcement and lower taxes on non violent people.

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December 1, 2008

GregS

Scott it’s not about liberal or conservative, it’s not about ideology or emotion, it’s about outcomes and results. Hating rapists doesn’t really make life better for the victims of rapists or improve the condition of society. If we kill them all we just reduce our cheap labor pool and will end up having to get the cheap labor from illegal immigrants and outsourcing. Rapists even if we don’t like them, have a function in the global economy, and in the US economy which is a net gain/benefit. It benefits us more to make them into a sort of debt slave labor workforce, because then our taxes would be lower and we could hire cheap labor right here in the USA directly from the prisons. Secondly, our technology is reaching a point where we can simply put a chip in them and give them the permanent type of house arrest. They’d be able to go to work each day, and live an ordinary life, but if they ever attempt to do something they shouldn’t be doing then we can track them by satelite.

Ok this idea might seem a bit radical but I think it’s more rational to make them useful and even profitable for victims rather than removing them from the planet and forcing non violent people to do the crappy jobs. Do you want to have to clean toilets, and do all that kinda stuff?

Imagine if the victims of rape could receive a check each month from the government that comes directly out of the pockets of the rapists?
That’s what I propose we do with rapists, rather than let the prison industrial complex profit from prison labor we should let the victims profit.

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December 1, 2008

gompertz

Not much time today, just a short comment. Maybe the fate of the rapist should be left up to the victim. There is no more devastating act of violence than rape, in a way it is worse than murder because the mrder victim’s troubles are, so to speak, over and the rape victim is left with a lifetime of suffering. No second chances, no repeat offenders . Maybe with modern science we can have those more productive solutions that Greg speaks of, but I think the victim’s input should be decisive, unless the science also heals the victim’s pain.
Amy, I am truly shocked to learn that even in the sunny state of Florida people get colds and flu! LOL Feel better

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December 1, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – We sure do get the cold and flu season. Its probably worse in Florida than you think. One days it cold out side and next day its hot. Throws your body way out of whack. Hot weather and a cold are pretty miserable. Got to love your joke though. lol.

So tired I find it hard to sleep. Does that make sense.

I have had alot going on the last couple of days and if I told everyone all of it they would think I was making it up. However, feeling to sick to talk about it right now.

Electronica – Sort message to you and off subject. Please when you are alone do not answer the door to anyone. People posing as teenagers are going door to door selling magazines to ‘pay their way through college.’
So much to tell you. I know it seems like common sense but, I think people are tricked way easier than they think into opening the door. Just FYI for anyone out their with teenage daughers or sons. Let them know about these ‘teens’.

Will blog later. Keep yourself safe. gn.

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

Most of the really bad news stories these days come out of Florida, and I think I have figured out the reason. It’s the absence of snowstorms. No, hurricanes don’t count. In a hurricane all you can do is lay low and hope for the best. In a hurricane you don’t get the opportunity for the kind of character-building interaction with Mother Nature that only a big snowstorm provides. For example, the extra three hours it takes to drive home from work because THE BRIDGE IS CLOSED DUE TO ICING. And next morning you get up four hours early because it takes an hour to clear the white gunk from your car and it takes an extra three hours to get to work because THE BRIDGE IS STILL CLOSED DUE TO ICING.

So here is my suggestion. All Florida teenagers should be required by law to spend a few winters in Alaska. There they would be busy learning the use of snow shovels to dig snow and fend off polar bear attacks. And they certainly wouldn’t have time to play softball or light bonfires or get into any mischief.

So there is one suggestion and I hope it doesn’t offend anyone.

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December 2, 2008

Menace

Lead poisoning causes brain damage, lead pollution causes crime. Check the pollution levels in the water in Florida. We already know the baby formula is polluted. Oh and btw there are drugs in the drinking water according to the FDA.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/200...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/05022314510...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/03/10/pharma.water1.ap/

But it’s all okay, your babies formula and drinking water are completely safe. Keep drinking.

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

To Menace, the dangers you draw attention to are real and people are not sufficiently concerned. I might add that in ancient Rome pipes and even cooking utensils were made of lead. We need look no further to explain the insane behavior of emperors like Nero and Caligula and Eliogabalus. But people don’t like scientific explanations that are right in front of them.
Our whole civilization is saturated with chemicals, even in cosmetics and mouthwash, and in the clothing we wear next to our skin. Those of us who are looking to remedy social problems through science need to be more attentive to this. We might find that it is in fact the fundamental reason for so much of the insanity and violence.

The threats from chemical poisoning are real and the chemical and pharmaceutical industries couldn’t care less. They would rather have us go on agonizing about what went wrong and constructing complicated socioeconomic explanations and deflect our focus from the real danger. It is time for everyone who cares about themselves and their families to confront the evil that is staring them in the face.

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

BTW as for my little suggestion I made this morning, I thought it unnecessary to add the usual lol and rotfl. I was just trying to cheer up Amy, and also Christina and her family. PEACE

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December 2, 2008

Electronica

phil im not giving april just 3 months in prison juvie im giving her almost a year of home arrest too and six more months of home arrest on weekends and three more years of curfew and lots of charity work. and ten years of going to schools to talk about it.

home arrest is pain you cant go out with your friends and stuff. if theyd give us just one month of home arrest on weekends for getting into a fight id never get into a fight again unless id like had to fight for my life or something. it just wouldnt be worth it. and thats just weekends. for april itd be almost a year under home arrest every day and no school i mean just home school.

and phil do you want april to be a felon when she gets out? i dont think thats fair and i dont think thats good for her and it could just make her into a real criminal when shes out.

also phil in florida they put kids in real prisons with grownups. even girls 14 years old like april. and they dont go to school and dont get to be with other kids and stuff they dnt treat them like kids at all its like official policy there. i read about it.

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December 2, 2008

Electronica

nav idk how what you said makes it fair. and adults dont go to prison for misdemener beatings just jail if that like i said. maybe what you mean is they must make an example of the girls so that makes the five years in prison for april ok. but i dont agree and its cruel for sure.

and greg and nav ppl dont let kids do grownup stuff cause they say kids not mature enough so hows it fair to treat them like adults when they do something wrong? and like i said a year for a kid is like three for an adult so five years in prison is like fifteen for a kid. if your kids do something wrong do you want them be treated just like grownups? its not fair.

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December 2, 2008

Rainman

Have grown weary of AmyV’s meaningless, “I support the victim” bumper-sticker mantra.

What kind of support does AmyV offer? Money, guidance, legal support, counseling, medical care, hugs, or a home?

No, the mantra merely serves as an excuse for bashing Christina Garcia, ignoring evidence about the degree of Mercades Nichols’ culpability, and not caring whether charges/punishments are proportionate.

The mantra also kills off meaningful discussion about Victoria Lindsay. Collecting comments from a wide variety of people who knew her, it is self-evident that she is fiercely independent and has personal charm sufficient to readily get herself into new living arrangements and friendships. It is also self-evident that people who take her in often tend to have their lives disrupted to a greater or lesser degree.

AmyV, you support the victim. Would you take her into your home and leave her alone with your daughters? If the answer is yes, then you’re foolish and naive.

Personally, I believe it is possible to be supportive of victims in general but without whitewashing the facts of their lives. without tossing proportionate justice out the window for the assailants, and without blaming the families of any of those involved.

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December 2, 2008

GregS

Electronica because they committed an adult crime. Why should we feel sorrow for these girls but now the thousands of children sent to adult prison for selling drugs? And those kids get 10 years and live next to murderers. And if you commit a drug crime and you get released in your mid to late 20s, you can’t ever go to college because the college financial aid and admissions has a question asking if you’ve ever been convicted of a drug offense. It doesn’t matter if you killed a person or are a sex offender, only the drug question is on there.

Do you think the War on Drugs is fair?

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December 2, 2008

GregS

What I don’t understand is why people feel sorry for these violent girls, but nobody feels sorry for the thousands of non violent people sitting in prison as we speak.

Can someone explain why?

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December 2, 2008

GregS

I guess selling drugs is the worst thing you can do as a teenager. Teenagers who sell drugs and get arrested might be pushed over the edge and commit suicide, looking at a decade to life in prison, looking at losing their chance at ever going to college and ever making a better life for themselves, don’t you think those kids have it far worse than these girls even if these girls receive 5 years?

So why should we make an exception for these girls who committed a violent crime when we have people in prison and with lives ruined for crimes which weren’t even violent?

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December 2, 2008

Phil

To electronica
You would make an excellent defence attorny ..Time served in jail would only make her criminal if she decides to do things that criminals do which has got her in this mess in the first place .If she re ofended it only proove that she is what most people are saying about her. We will have to agree to disagree because as you think my sentence is to harsh I truly believe yours does not meet the standard of the offences she has been charged with or act as a deterent . That being said I will think again on your statements . I do find of all people that have differing opinions than mine on this case your logic has been the most persuisive.
Keep up the good work

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December 2, 2008

Phil

Greg
I feel sorry for the whole mess . These girls have put thier friends and families in a no win situation . If you try to defend them your are attacked.
.I still think it is nessecary for them to pay a harsh price like all people who do such things but it is such a waste that a half hour of brutality has made these girls some of the most hated people on the planet .I do feel sorry for them but not a tenth as sorry as I feel for Victoria and her family .

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I think the motivation behind drug laws has more to do with the concern of the pharmaceutical (i.e. drug) companies to monopolize the business.
Sorry I’m tired today.
In the case of the defendants here, I’ve already said that they deserve a certain some time, but if it were up to me, they would be provided with professional help, therapy, and some kind of martial arts training. The reason is that they committed an offense for which they need to be punished but also they need to be rehabilitated.

And this is my problem with the incarceration of drug offenders, at least the kind who are in for smoking weed. Unlike the violent girls, what kind of “rehabilitation” do you need for smoking grass? I can’t figure it.

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December 2, 2008

Phil

Gomp
It is hard to cross reference different types of crimes and relate a suitable type of punishment . Today crimes of hate and sexual assult are seen (and propery so )in a much worse light than just 10 years ago . The only thing you can do is charge people with the laws they break and use these laws to to justify the punishment . .What someone gets for dealing drugs is as about as consistent the weather . Each set of cicumstances is different . that is why there are minimum and maximum sentences attached to most crimes . its usually
not the laws that get in the way but the will of those charged with insuring that sentences are consitently just . Even with a video tape of this crime look how many opinions there is on this case. Can you imagine how hard it is when there is not such proof . I have a hard time beliving when other people see the same tape read the same reports and see this in a totally different light than me . Some people get outraged at any type of drug use and others see it as no big deal.As societys standards chage it is areal chalenge for the laws to keep up with them such as possenion for pot if outside caligornia or something as serious the Lori drew case .

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December 2, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
in one of my first post i stated that you seemed to except the ashes on the shelf excuse . Ive been reading the old post and it was Scott who made that statement and not you , belated apology

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December 2, 2008

GregS

pharmaceutical companies lose profits because you can’t sell drugs if you have 2 million people in prison. 25% of the worlds prisoners are in the United States.

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

Phil, the problem I have about drugs is that there seems to be such a vast disparity in the types of drugs. For me doing grass(the 60s terminology) was no big deal, and some people did coke with no apparent ill effect, but then there were things like LSD and I saw a kid get a very bad reaction from that. So I draw distinctions among different kinds of drugs, and some should be legal and some I think require stronger regulation, but I believe Greg disagrees, so this is just my opinion. There harmful social effects of drugs goes beyond someone having a “bad trip” as seen in the crack epidemic. In the early 80s I felt no fear about going into any neighborhood in NYC at any time of day or night. Then crack came along in the mid eighties and that changed. These new types of addicts were not like the coke addicts I had seen before, who might atmost get pushy when it came to asking for a handout. The crack addicts on the contrary were aggressive and dangerous and you got the feeling they would murder anyone for a fix. So that’s the kind of experience that leads me to be wary of calls for total legalization. But there are other forms of regulation that need to be tried, instead of putting people away and throwing away the key, and if you legalize drugs like crack with the provision that addicts need to be helped rather than punished, I would be for it.
What complicates the problem even more is this. We are all on drugs if we know it or not. Chemicals are everywhere and we tend to think the government, the FDA oversees these things, but we deceive ourselves. Rather than go on and on about it someone called Menace provided some interesting links this morning about lead poisoning and that kind of thing, and I wish more people would be aware that the real danger comes from the chemicals that industry exposes us to all the time, and that is potentially more dangerous than all the crack in the world. But I get easily carried away with that subject.

What intrigued me was when you said people can look at the video and get different interpretations. Actually I don’t see any room for interpretation, I’ve said all along the video speaks for itself. And based on what is clearly seen in the video, somebody has to be punished, no doubt about it. Yes, even Mercades, though the degree of guilt can be argued about. I have never tried to dispute the facts, and I don’t feel sorry for anyone. I just want a fair sentence with the possibility of rehabilitation. And that is the problem for me, the fact that we don’t really know anything about their ability to be rehabilitated and feel remorse. For me that is more important than how many years each one should get. And as some have pointed out, why think of sentences like, say five or ten years in prison when murderers and rapists get less? If you want proportionate sentencing, and you give April five years in prison, then what would you give the rapists. For most rapists and murderers I would fsvor the death penalty and not something soft like lethal injection.
Recently they executed a man who had raped and murdered a little boy many years ago, after all his appeals finally ran out. The mother of the little boy watched the execution by lethal injection and said that she wished her son’s death had been as peaseful as the murderer’s.
I would make sure the death of that kind of monster was anything but peaceful. So our justice system is sick if it cares so much more about criminals than victims. And that is my problem with the evidence of the tape. We know it was horrible, and BH might be incorrigibly evil. But that is what I dont know so I cant say just what is appropriate. Based on what we know from the tape and the other information we have of her, can you say if she is incorrigibly evil?

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December 2, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I agree with the theory that the amount of chemicals introduced into our bodies does play a role on our bodies ability to maintain its natural balance. Everything we eat has some type of chemical in it and even the overpriced items at health food stores have some harmful chemical components.

I have long ago come to the conclusion that chemicals in our water, food, etc. have contributed to the rise in mental health issues.
Panic/Anxiety Disorder (I belive the number one psych. disorder in Prevelanace) has reached all time highs. I would have to look up the exact statistics on the ratio ex. one out of three people suffer from this disorder.

Although, this particular disorder is not associated with violence, it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. As are many phsy. disorders. So yes I agree that toxins in our body have affected our mental and psychiatric health.

Yes, Florida is not know for its high quality of drinking water and that is surely nothing to be proud of or to be taken lightly. Most people in my area, the ones I know anyway, drink bottled water. Of course would could also debate the amount of chemicals introduced into your body by the bottles alone which has been disgusted a lot on the news. So I am not sure what to do about this. I do see this as a huge problem.

Yes, it is true we have had some really bizzare cases coming out of Florida lately. I don’t think our crime rate is any higher. I don’t believe we rank in the top ten. We just have had crimes commited that have had so many plots, twists, etc. i.e. Casey Anthony. I would still like people to believe that Florida is truely not a state infested with crime, if their is such a thing anymore. I am just not sure. I really am not taking any of this as an assault to my state. It is just the truth and I cringe each time a new crime is shown on t.v. that it will once again say Florida. We all know these problems are nation wide and it is truely sad.

Gomp – I think I remember the case you are talking about. Was it the one where that poor little girl was lured away at the care wash? If it was that man (I say that losely) was not dressed as a police officer. He did have some type of uniform on, I think auto mechanic not sure. However, that case showed how easy it was to lure a child away enough they are given persistenent warning about stranger danger.

I do agree with where you are going to with that. Unfortunately, their are sickos who do pose as police officers and other authority figures that kids should be able to trust. Of course this would bring us back to the fact that it is hard to trust anyone. However, when faced with danger, your best reponse would be to call the police obviously. Not everyone is a skilled fighter. Also, way to many guns in the hands of the wrong kind of people.

Martial arts seems to have been a good experience and a big part of your life. However, I like some others are concerned about who should take martial arts classes. For defense purposes and other benefits it is a good theory. However, what if bullies (not in this case) take these classes and impower themselves even more. I don’t know how you weed out the good from the bad as people can be truly deceptive.

A long blog to you I know. So much has been going on in my life these past two weeks if I told you, you would think I was making it up. So trying to go back to post I haven’t read and respond if I feel I have some type of input or questions. O.k. so now I will raise the percentage. We pretty much agreed 99%. A little bit of humor in some series issues keeps it from getting just to depressing.

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December 2, 2008

GregS

It’s not that Florida is infested with crime, it seems that Florida is filled with sociopaths. Casey Anthony is a guaranteed sociopath. It remains to be seen whether any of the girls in the beating video are sociopaths but with BH and AC it’s a possibility. Now we do know that lead is neurotix and it damages the frontal lobes, this is the decision making portion of the brain, the part of the brain which does reasoning, the part of the brain which allows an individual to have self control and keep their impulses in check.

When the frontal lobes are damaged an individual can adopt sociopathic behavior, aggressive, impulsive, lack of long term planning, and there have been studies where people have been hit on the head in a way which damaged the frontal lobes and this has changed their behavior. This has happened to boxers for example who snap and rape a person after being hit in the head too many times. It’s worth researching to see if the effects of lead poisoning lead to psychopath or sociopath behavior, it could be that the pollution in the environment is causing brain injuries which results in a rising percentage of sociopaths/psychopaths, among the other problems which might also be environmentally caused such as autism, bipolar disorder, etc.

The theory of chemical imbalance is BS in my opinion. When brainscans are conducted we don’t
see differences in chemicals,we see differences in the physical structure of the brain itself complete with differences in how the neurons fire. It may be necessary to focus on mental health as part of this problem, perhaps teen violence is actually an untreated mental disorder which could be discovered by a simple brain scan.

Once we discover what it is, we can treat it while they are young children.

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December 2, 2008

Amyv

Wow. Does everyone have insomnia tonight? Blogging late. I can hear the clicking when I am trying to catch up with other blogs. It gets frustrating. wish their was an easier way.

Gompertz – I believe it was you who posted perhaps the victim should decide the punishment? If not sorry I am tired. Scroll is not working to well.

This is my concern with that. You could have one victim who was filled with so much hatred from the crime they would want the death penalty. Understandable. You could also have another victim who chose to forgive the criminal and they could get a light sentence. Understable for that person as well.

The one that decided to forgive rapist gets 5 years per her punishment decision. Just a scenario obviously. The rapist gets out and reoffends, as they often do. How are we protecting future victims?

O.k. question for the legally knowlegdeable. A male adult gainst access into a home. Teenage girl is present. Male does inappropriate things and makes in approiate comments. No not rape.
The charges end up being battery (misdameanor) and breaking and entering (felony). What is wrong with this scenario. Which one of these offenses is worse? Why is this not considered a pedophile act? However criminal held without bond in prison. My real question is who decides on the charges the police officer making the arrest or a prosecutor? Shouldn’t other type of charges be filed?GN

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December 2, 2008

Amyv

Gomp – Diabetes is a chemical imbalance. Will this show up on a brain scan?

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December 2, 2008

gompertz

Amy, good point about rape victims. My main concern is that the rapist pay for his crime and not get off lightly. I think the victim should have some input with respect to a choice of death penalty or letting hi work for the victim as Greg suggests.
The question about diabetes I think is meant for Greg.
gn

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December 2, 2008

Amyv

Sorry Gomp. Could not remember if it was you or Greg. Scroll working now. Got to love computers sometimes. gn.

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December 3, 2008

GregS

“Male does inappropriate things” it depends on what the inappropriate things are. And it depends on how old the teenager is, is the teenager older than the legal age of consent or younger? If the teen is younger than the age of consent then the Male committed a crime.

There are no chemical imbalances. Diabetes is due to damage to the pancrease, or due to insulin resistence, neither of which are a result of chemical imbalance. Insulin resistence is a result of chemical poisoning, if you eat high fructose corn syrup, or take the wrong drug combination. The other from of diabetes is genetic and viral and cannot be avoided. So diabetes is environmental because of high fructose corn syrup which is not natural, but that wont be found through a brain scan. It requires an insulin sensitivity test.

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December 3, 2008

Kristy

My God, are you people on crack cocaine?

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December 3, 2008

Scott

Kristy
Dec 3, 2008 at 6:31 am

My God, are you people on crack cocaine?

What makes you say that Kristy? ) And what do you think of this whole mess and the impending plea bargains or trail?

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December 3, 2008

Garland

Personally, Kristy, I think that Rainman is, from what I’ve read from his recent posting to Amy (which was yesterday). What in the world does Victoria’s lifestyle have to do with anything of what happened to her? Absolutely nothing.

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December 3, 2008

Garland

Plus has Rainman forgotten that children like hermay have a disorder within themselves? I can’t believe the nerve of what he’s posting to Amy, &amp bashing her opinion for what she feels about the victim in this situation &amp judging her because of her past or present lifestyle. Ridiculous.

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December 3, 2008

Electronica

phil i didnt say jail makes criminals out of criminals. im not that stupid. i was saying prison and being a felon can like help april become real criminal. i dont think thats unrue. i think real criminals are ppl who done something horrible like murder and people who keep on doing doing very bad stuff like robbing banks and jail didnt change them so it must be prison for them. i dont think its fair to say aprils already like that. and shes fourteen. so thats why i asked if you want her to be a felon. she could be in a juvie prison for like two years its long but not too cruel. but even two years in real prison is real cruel and shes a felon when she gets out. so do you really want her to be a felon?

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December 3, 2008

Electronica

greg i never said its fair to put kids in prison for drugs i think its not fair at all. i think its ok to sometime send them to juvie cause if their addicted its hard to help them if they stay home. and it shouldnt be like prison juvie or even jail juvie but more like a school juvie there are places like that and only if they run away put them in jail juvie but never in prison juvie.

and i dont know any kids in like real prison for drugs pls tell me about some 14-year-old in real prison for drugs i never heard of one.

anyways its got nothin to do with my questions. i never said aprils the only kid in the world who gets treated unfair theres lots of kids like that. it doesnt make it fair. like i read the taliban kills girls if they go to school so you gonne say its fair if someone kills me for going to school? thats a stupid argument.

and greg you like keep running away from my quetions you just start other stuff its like you dont wanne answer.

and greg saying its ok to treat them unfair and cruel cause theydid an adult crime is stupid. like the only crime thats not adult is not going to school. so juvies are just for kids who dont go to school? thats stupid. if your fourteen your fourteen if i do something good you still dont let me vote and drive and see some movies on my own but like i do something bad i must be treated like an adult and go to adult prison? and like i said you and nav want april be treated even worse than adults its just misdemener beating it shouldnt be prison at all anyway.

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December 3, 2008

Electronica

greg you jumped some kid thats real bad ive never done that and never would not out of fear or any other reason. im not saying you were a bad person im just saying thats pretty bad when you get jumped its easy to get hurt and its totally unfair and mean.

april didnt jump tori she was mean but she didnt jump her she tried to fight her on her own. its wrong what she did but not as wrong as a jump and the beating was just a misdemener.

its like phil and you did bad stuff when you were kids i wouldnt do but when it comes to april and her misdemener beating you are very cruel to her. thats strange. but phil at least now says 2 to 3 years and if it could be a juvie not adult prison i think it wouldnt be so cruel anymore. unfair but not cruel.

so anyways maybe you were real mean as a kid and your just real mean now too.

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December 3, 2008

Phil

Electronica I think she should be in juv prison for no less then 2 years that being said the courts have decided that thier actions were so bad that thy will be tried as adults . Punishment must fit that distinction . You can look through the legal system and find cases where a person gets 5 years for killing someone and another gets 12 years years for robery or fraud or simple drug possesion. I cannot dispute you when you pull theses cases out .If the courts had decided that they would be tried in juv courts then the punishments would fit these crimes . Its is not that i want anybody to go to jail , I will just state again that I do not believe your sentence recomondation meets the the punishment deserved forwhat she did .one if the biggest reson for this is that your recomondation is to short to have a deterant factor built into the sentence which i believe is so important to let others know when you crossthat line that badly you will pay . How many of your generation would be afraid of , 3 months juv even with your other conditions . My step daughter says nobody. mayby just another opinion.

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December 3, 2008

Phil

To clarify . ‘I would be opposed to April spending her sentence( whatever it is )in an adult prison.I also beleve a heavy dose of counciling is in order . If April is sincere in her regret and determined to put this behind her then this would help . If not then that also would be up to her .

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December 3, 2008

Greg.S

Electronica, I respect your opinion because you are consistent. I wanted to see if your theory of punishment applied to just these girls or all teens and you applied it to all teens, so you came to these conclusions using reason. I might not agree with your reasoning but I can respect it.

Electronica, the parents and the government are at fault for not rewarding the good teenagers. The government has reduced the role of parents but then has decided that the best way to parent children is to put them in prison. I didn’t decide that this strategy was good, I don’t support the war on drugs, lots of people I know went to prison over stupid stuff as teens.

And Electronica, the situation I was in when I jumped the smaller kid, I had the option to either be the kid being jumped, or be one of the kids doing the jumping, there was no in between, there was no debate, there was no real option. So I can understand how kids can be forced into uncomfortable positions they cannot reasonably get out of. I can also understand how good people can be forced to do bad things out of self preservation. Sometimes there is no option to be a good person, only the option to survive or die.

I was never mean as a kid, or a bully. I always fought bullies. But I did learn that the only way to teach a bully right from wrong is through punishment. It means you ultimately have to punish them and it must be severe enough that they fear the punishment more than the crime itself. If the risk of getting caught outweighs the pleasure of committing the crime then there is a reduced chance that a crime will be committed. You have to make the bully fear something, because parents can’t spank their children, the bully cannot fear the belt anymore, this only leaves the juvie and the prison.

April must be disciplined. Thats my stance. I came to this conclusion through reasoning just like you did. But I’m not emotionally involved in this specific trial, I’m looking towards the future, and I think sometimes we have to be cruel to one person today, to save thousands of people from cruelty tomorrow.

Do you see my reasoning? I want to be cruel to April, because it will mean less people will suffer in the future. I don’t want to be cruel to April just to be mean, and I don’t want to be cruel to April because I have any personal feelings towards April, I feel like we have to send a message to the other teens out there that this behavior will no longer be tolerated and if that requires being cruel to April to send that message then I’m willing to do it.

I see it as a situation where we destroy one girls life to prevent thousands of girls lives from being destroyed. If we let this bullying on tape thing become a trend, it could destroy thousands of lives, it could lead to suicides and murders, it’s the social costs that you aren’t considering, and so we have to be proactive about that and do whatever is necessary to prevent this situation from ever happening again. I’ve reasoned that if we don’t give a very scary severe punishment, that kids and teens watching this will think it’s cool to do what these girls did. I even see YouTube postings and postings on blogs where teens side with April Cooper not on the trial but on the actual acts in the tape, some teens think this behavior is okay and we have to send a strong message to them, that it’s not.

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December 3, 2008

Greg.S

That being said, if April spends her sentence in Juvie it’s understandable. She’s 14 and nobody expects her to be sent to adult prison. So if this is a debate about the fate of April Cooper, I’ll agree that she ought to go to Juvie, but I still think he deserves at least 4 years in Juvie. She should get out when she’s 18.

The rest of them should go to adult prison because they are adults.

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December 3, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I wanted to comment on your comment about Brittini H. and Victoria. Just because B.H. told Victoria she would not have to worry about them beating her up again, Would that make her feel safe. If these girls had done this to me I don’t think I would trust them saying “o.k. I won’t do it again”.

Sorry I know you disagree but these girls played judge and jury. If she did trash talk them, they decided to take it upon themselves to beat her up in a cowardly and criminal fashion. So, I would think that the fact they thought they had taught her a lesson kind of blew up in their faces. Also, not wanting to beat her up again as a long as she didn’t trash talk them again, don’t really know how to respond to that one.

If these girls had a problem with Victoria they should have taken it up with her one at a time, not all together, and that might have been what you consider a fair fight. Although, fighting in any way is not the solution.

As far as April Cooper wanting to beat up Victoria but not hurt her could you please explain to me what the difference is? When you beat up someone isn’t the purpose to hurt them? Punching someone is trying to hurt them. Also, this was not your ordinary two girl fight. Just because April punched her (several, several times) by herself at the moment their was plenty of back up their. I am not trying to argue. I just don’t understand the rationale. Why is jumping worse than just taking turns?

As for all of the other statements of which I would rather have jumping, jail, etc. (not that you directed them at me in any way), don’t know which is worse. Of course perferably none of the above.

I stated so many times I can’t even count that these girls don’t deserve life in prison. I still think Boot camp might be the answer. Get up at dawn, rigorous exercise, schooling include, and of course all cleaning of the barricks and kitchen that are required and then early to bed. This would teach discipline. Keep them busy enough to stay out of trouble and provide them with schooling. Fighting is not tolerated their, so them getting hurt would not be an issue. So this should be a fair punishment if your concern is mostly for these girls getting hurt.

Unfortunately, Electronica their is no good answer. Their will not be a good out come no matter what the sentence is. It is very sad that this crime took place at all. Now these girls will have to face some type of punishment for their actions.

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December 3, 2008

gompertz

Amy, what are you doing up so late? lol

I have been thinking about how long this thing is taking and I wonder if you see a diminishing of interest in the area where you are. In NY the kids who all saw the video months ago and talked about it have long since gone on to other interests. How about the people in the local community, though, I wonder if it’s something they still feel strongly about like they did at the beginning. It wouldn’t apply to the people on the blogs, but I don’t know how representative the commenters on the blogs are of public opinion. Anyway, still dealing with my “cold” or whatever it is.

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December 3, 2008

Amyv

Garland – Thank you for your comments. At first I choose not to repond to Rainman because, quite frankly I didn’t think it was worth a response. I have been down this road before and it is tiring.

People can believe my support of the victim or not. However, one question did come to mind?

Rainman – would you be willing to open up your home to Christinia or her daughter? Not going to start the name calling again. It serves no purpose and really isn’t required to get your point across.

The answer to the Victoria question. Whether you believe it or not, yes I would open my home to her if she needed a place to stay. With rules in place and with her parents knowledge. Believe me or not.

If we are truly going to go by facts of the case, it has not been proven to me that Victoria can manipulate herself into any situation. You see I can see the tape. I can not see see who blogs info. about her and if they have something personal against her. No facts to support it. Unless of course she taped it or it was reported to the police.

As to the knowledgeablele information we receive from people on Victorias past I take that with a grain of salt. Although, their has been some documented trouble with her home life. So I do believe that. I just try to reason who would gain from some of this information. Without proof, just as you do not know everything about Mercades actions in the past, I do not about Victorias. And as Garland stated in this case it really does not matter. A crime was commited. That is the one thing we all agree on.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

GregS – I am not a doctor so I do not pretend to have the type of extensive knowledge of the brain that would be required to tell if certain chemicals become imbalanced. Therefore, causing
psychological illness. For instance when anxiety attack occurs an adrenaline up take is increased, even when no real danger present. Of course we all know that is the fight or flight syndrome under unneccsary circumstances.

I am in the medical profession however and find all aspects of how the human body works and responds to all type of stressors. Since, doctors are still arguing the fact of the chemical imbalance theory, I will leave that up to them.
Perhaps though, since a chemical imbalance would not be detected by standard testing such as MRI, CAT scans, etc., more sophisticated testing would have to be performed to prove or disprove this theory. I do not believe we have access to that type of technology now. Perhaps, soon we will.

As for basing a sentence on the level of remorse, since this also can not be determined medically, this can not be measured scientifically. It sure would be nice if it could. It would save jurors and perhaps family members a whole lot of time determining rather than using intuition alone on this matter. As, we all can see from our discussions whether remorse is true or faked is up for a wide range of interpretation.

Phil – I agree with your post. The decision for juve. has been taken off the table, so there
for that kind of making a mute point.

I have also asked a couple of teenage girls I know that have actually been in juve. the same questions. They said their experiences in their taught them nothing. Of course that would differ, as with many things, on the facility itself.

I have already stated to Electronica one of the girls told me one night in prison scared her into straightening up. Three months in juve. did nothing to deter her crime and obviously she repeated the offense. So, it really does seem to be something to take into consideration.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Gomp – Wow. It really is late. Off tommorow though so that is o.k. Still have insomnia.

Although I do live in Florida, I am not from Polk county so I can only speak for what I have seen around here. Yes, unfortunately interest does seem to be fading. Although, I believe one showing of the tape would revive that. We really do have short attention spans don’t we?lol.

This is where I see an injustice. As with many other criminal cases the court systems and attornies drag their feet. What ever happened to the victims right to a speedy trial. I would understand this more in the Casey Anthony trial as they are still sorting through mounds of evidence. However, this trial to me is cut and dry. The offenders have taped their crime.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – I think you can seem from everyone hear you have come up with something we can all agree on. The justice system does not seem to have any reasoning or pattern to its sentencing. The same case before two different jurys or two different judges can have remarkably different out comes.

I agree with you that rapists, pedophiles, murders, etc. in a lot of cases are punished to lightly. Since these are crimes involving violence, the penalties should be more consistent and severe. So yes our justice system needs a major over haul.

I also agree that cases involving violence should take priority over certain types of drug crimes that get outrageously hard sentences. That surely is something our government should address and soon. Over crowding leads to the wrong people being released over and over again back on to the streets. And future victims pay the consequences. So you will get no good explainations for that from the adults here.

Eletronica – I really haved tryed to explain to you how I feel about the punishment these girls deserve. Yes, sometimes I can become emotional but, believe me it is with good intentions at heart. I just think the violence among teenagers and adults alike needs to be detered it is already so out of control. I can not imagine what it will be like five years down the road for the next generation if this type of behavior is allowed to continue.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Amyv Adrenaline come from a gland, if anything it’s a hormone imbalance but not a chemical imbalance. It does not have much impact on the brain itself but on the entire nervous system of the body. I’m not exactly sure what causes panic attacks, and I don’t think psychiatrists know either. I think what we can do to better understand mental disorders of all kinds is through brain scanning, and to understand the other kinds of diseases we can use XRays, Ultrasounds and other kinds of scans. To do a brain scan you need FMRI.

As far as interest in the case goes, young people haven’t been paying attention because they get their information from YouTube. I know because I’m in my 20s and thats how my generation keeps up with these sorts of cases.

Young people for the most part seem to have concluded that these girls have got away with it and are assuming they will be given a slap on the wrist. The anger is still there however because people are still leaving angry comments on the videos on YouTube, but this case has faded into the backround because there are other newer cases that the youth are paying attention to which are of public interest.

There does seem to be a large portion of the youth who are firmly against bullying an who pay attention to these sorts of crimes because they want to stop it, but there is a small but very influential community which glorifies bullying, thats the community producing the girl fights, the bum fights, and profiting from it.

I think it might already be too late, thats why people aren’t paying as much attention to this case. People have concluded that Florida is screwed, isn’t Casey Anthony from Florida? Young single mothers are watching Casey Anthony to see if they can get away with selling off or disappearing their children, and of course the majority of single mothers probably hate Casey Anthony for doing this because they know if Casey Anthony gets a slap on the wrist that this could become a trend.

The situation is already severe, the consequences of this trial are already being felt across the country. I’d say that by delaying out the punishment they’ve justified the crime, and they will only further justify the crime if they slap the criminals on the wrist.

We have to assume that there are millions of young sociopaths who go through their days planning criminal acts, or who have violently criminal fantasies about committing criminal acts, and the only thing stopping them from acting on their instincts and urges is their fear of getting caught. We have to give up on the idea that most people are just naturally good, and accept the scientific fact that people decide what to do based on what the risks and consequences are. We have to design our laws assuming people aren’t so good, and that people secretly desire to do all sorts of cruel and bad things, and just are looking for the excuse to do it and the means to get away with it.

If someone badmouths you it’s the perfect excuse to be violent and beat them up. You can then try to justify your blood lust by claiming they were talking sh*t. Maybe the truth is that you enjoy hurting people and you were just looking for an excuse to do it. Maybe you know you are a good fighter and wanted to make an example out of someone. Maybe you just wanted to send a message to all the others to fear you or they will be consequences.

This is why the law has to be just as ruthless, just as scary, and send just as strong of a message. If the law does not send a stronger message than the bullies do, the result will be that the bullies will simply be able to make the victims afraid to press charges at all, and when the victims do press charges, out of that fear the victims might drop the charges or try to protect the bullies from prison time.

This happens with gangs and mafias all the time, someone in the gang or mafia gets sued for an assault, the gang or mafia threatens to kill the victim if they don’t drop the charges, so the victim out of fear drops the charges. This is why the law ultimately will not be strong enough to end bullying. The bullies will either make people afraid to use the law, or they will use the law to bully their victims even further by framing their victims.

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Amy, who said Brittini Hardcastle told Tori that she wouldn’t beat her up again? I never read that. Besides, the comments in the car aimed at Tori by Brittini, Brittany and Mercades on the way to CVS were that if Tori went to the police the beating would be worse the next time.

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December 4, 2008

Tony

Does the act of committing criminal violence on tape with intent to coerce and intimidate qualify as an act of terrorism?

An extreme example being a beheading where the “enemy” is beheaded to make a political statement.

A mild example being a gang beating designed to intimidate a neighborhood into paying protection money, making the statement that the police can’t protect you from violence and you must cooperate with the gang or end up like the people on tape being beat up and abused.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

if Tori went to the police the beating would be worse the next time Isn’t this illegal? If they felt remorse wouldn’t they have said sorry? rather than further threaten the victim?

The latest news now is that Victoria isn’t even in Polk County anymore, we don’t know if she was chased out through fear or if she willingly left. If we look at her behavior she doesn’t want any of them to go to jail, which on the surface seems irrational, if it’s irrational did she come to this conclusion out of fear? When an individual exhibits irrational behavior, it’s caused by an emotion, and there are only two possible emotions which can cause Victoria to not want these girls to go to jail.

1. Compassion
2. Fear

Which do you think is more likely? Or do you think it’s a combination of the two of these emotions driving the behavior and decisions of Victoria and her family?

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December 4, 2008

GregS

I certainly hope we aren’t seeing a situation where the victim is being intimidated into submission, that would set a horrible precedent.

This is another thing which we’d have to study and understand, how much does fear and intimidation influence the legal process and justice system? How much does intimidation influence the decisions of juries? how much does fear influence the people who want to slap violent criminals on the wrist?

It’s very possible, although we haven’t given this angle much attention, that many of the people who side with violent bullies are afraid of the bullies and simply do so out of self preservation.

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December 4, 2008

gompertz

Only have a few minutes so I wanted to address some points raised by Amy and Navigator about martial arts, because these are important points. First, how to know whether a particular school is genuine, and second, the real danger that bullies can profit from this kind of instruction because there are unscrupulous teachers who will teach bullies how to do more harm.
There is no fixed formula here and I don’t have any ready answers, but some ideas might be a little helpful. First, those people I know personally who sent their children to martial arts schools are people who have roots in the community. Some are cops or firemen, and ell have friends and neighbors who are cops or firemen who know the community they live in. So there is lots of information available from these sources to help make a choice. Also it is a simpler matter to know what a child needs in the way of instruction than a teenager or adult. A child’s instruction will involve the external aspects of the art, like learning how to hit with speed and power. The children enjoy it and they are getting younger all the time. It’s not unusual to see a horde of tiny children going through their routines with great enthusiasm under the watchful eye of their teacher, to whom they show perfect respect. They do love the discipline as much as the physical practice. Yes, children welcome the discipline and structure of the dojo.

Are there bad seeds among these children? Are there some who will use their skill for wrong ends? That is a danger. But I think very young children lack the degree of sophistication to hide such tendencies and they can be detected and dealt with before the child becomes a teenager. Anyway that’s my opinion.

Of course after childhood the trouble starts. It is true that young criminals can benefit from physical training in prisons (and at taxpayer expense, too!) and become more dangerous. Of course the same goes for criminals’ access to prison libraries and we know what that means. Also therapists and counsellors can reinforce the criminal tendencies of those under their care. These problems are all interconnected and must be dealt with at the political level (I don’t mean writing letters to congressmen, that doesn’t help).

In the practice of internal arts like tai chi, people access deeper levels of their being. The bullies who manage to follow the training to that point will either be transformed by it and stop being bullies (yes, it happens) or will reject it. Some people are so in love with their own self-image as violent bullies that tai chi training would strike them as a threat to their personal identities, and they would leave on their own. If not, those who teach tai chi would be sufficiently aware and intuitively developed to detect the problem and the unrepentant bully is expelled. Do some truly evil people slip through anyway? The evil Dr. Han in “Enter the Dragon” may be fiction, or he may not. In the end, it all comes down to using you own judgment, but you can develop your power of judgment, because the development of intuition goes hand in hand with the development of martial skill in the internal arts.

Ultimately all martial arts are internal, including tae kwon do and karate. Children who start on that path should continue to perfect themselves until they reach the more internal levels of their art. The children who are in these schools today are the teachers of tomorrow, and not just in martial arts. We need dedicated teachers and therapists and scientists. The science is there, but the people who implement the science are in short supply. That is why we must encourage all children to do martial arts, not to produce a generation of Bruce Lee type superstars, but to be the dedicated workers of tomorrow in all fields.

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December 4, 2008

gompertz

As for Tony’s point, I have wondered whether there is a possibility of invoking anti-terrorism laws such as Rico statutes. If it was planned and involved an identifiable group, it might, at least in my unprofessional opinion. And all it takes is one victim to invoke Rico, right?

So all the more reason to people to invest in martial arts lessons. One more point I just remembered, these lessons are expensive and many people just cant afford them for themselves and their children. Maybe we need to set up a special fund to subsidize this training. People want universal health care, so why not make this training part of the package? After all, martial arts is about physical and mental health and prevents a lot of illnesses. Well, gotta go now.

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Yes Greg, Tori in my opinion was afraid and not comfortable living in Lakeland anymore. Why? My guess is that Tori is largely blamed for what happened to those 8 teens and the serious trouble they got into over her alleged trash talking. Can you imagine that? It’s crazy. Tori gets suckered in to hurrying home because they needed her, gets beaten half to death, ends up with vision problems and nightmares for life and it’s all her fault. Some people actually believe this and and probably think that Tori is evil like a black cat which is a hate filled stereotype of black cats.

I hope Tori is happy in Tampa Bay but there is no way to know that.

It’s too bad Unknown from the Topix blog doesn’t post here because she would likely have further information on Tori.

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December 4, 2008

Garland

Agree with everything you posted, Scott. Fully agreed. Apparantley, they’ll find out the truth &amp they’ll regret doing that to her. I just hope that Victoria is happy, wherever she goes. She doesn’t deserve the harsh criticism she’s getting.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

It&rsquos not a bar fight, it wasn&rsquot even a fight.
posted by Greg.

GregS -Though I was getting better at cutting and pasting but, still learning. This statement is so true. It was not a fight. The victim did not throw one punch. So, this should been a further reason for these girls to cease their actions.

If you hit someone repeatedly, or even once, and they do not engage that disqualifies it from being referred to as a fight. This is said with out any of the factors being entered in. So, as far as I am concerned, you hit the nail on the head.

Since, many people have stated it was just a fight, hopefully that analogy will make enough sense. Also, I have found the phrase “cat fight” extremely offensive. This is a term used to demean and dismiss the severity of this crime since it was committed by girls.

Really wish I had spell check on here. Please excuse my spelling especially late at night. I get typing so fast sometimes I do not get a chance to proofread every post. trial point though.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

GregS – I stand corrected on dismissing the components of glands and hormones causing reactions to the body. As for the affects of chemicals vs. hormones, etc. that applies to several psychological disorders. I am sure we can agree their should be more money allocated into researching psychological disorders in this country. As this has been under adovated problem that should defend increased funding and research. Especially, with the significant rise of these disorders in our society. Although, many with these disorders are non-violent. So much work needs to be done to evaluate and put in place better treatment options for these individuals. Sort of off topic but not entirely.

Please, do not take this as an insult for it is meant to be a compliment. You seem to have come from a rough environment as your prior post suggests. So some of the bloggers here including myself, may have found it difficult to understand your reasoning on certain issues.
Ex: Gangs, bullying. etc.

Now with your added information of your age, you have come a long, long way. Although, exposed to this environment were becoming a gang member (not sure if you were or not), was chosen as a way of life in order to survive.

With your vast knowledge of medical issues I would assume that has been gained through some extensive college education. You have choosen a postive path, pulled yourself out of a dangerous environment and that surely is to be commended. Please excuse me if I am making assumptions about your life that are not true. I am just putting together pieces of the comments you have made.

So here is my point. This is an age old question but, here it goes. You take two people and expose them to the same environmental stressors. One takes a path to better themselves and lead a productive life. The other takes the path of continued criminal behavior and violence. Why are their choices so vastly different? I believe way to many issues on this. We could be blogging for years.

Since, the brain can show brain damage it can not show human emotions. Not through the technically we have now anyway. All people with psychological problems with show nothing on a brain scan. Here is were the emotional aspects come in. So to provide help for these individuals we need to take a holistic approach in all aspects of human health.

Wow, maybe way to much blogging on that subject. However, if we are looking for answers to prevention of these crimes all of these issues must be addressed.

There is no medical testing for remorse. Their is no way to be absolutely sure if someone will reoffend again. Unless, we are talking pedophiles who have sick instincts that no amount of rehabilitation has been proven to work.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

All people with psychological problems with show nothing on a brain scan. wow. let me immediately correct that statement. I have got to start proof reading definitely. Hard to do when we are all so busy.

What I mean to say was not all people with psychological problems will show evidence of this on a brian scan. Sorry.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Hi Garland – We seem to be on at exactly the same time. Have not read that specific post yet. However, I will do that now.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Electronica no the cops shouldn&rsquot go to prison for releasing the evidence. The cops should be praised for doing that, because now we know what the new trend is. If Victoria had not went to the cops then this tape would have still been spread all around, and still would have done just as much damage. The cops aren&rsquot the ones who made the tape, and I don&rsquot think you should punish people for releasing a tape someone else made. These girls made the abuse tape, these girls should take full and total responsibility for the damages caused by the tape they created. The girls who filmed the beating should pay the consequences of the video being on YouTube,not the cops.

It&rsquos not wise to create a deterrent against the cops. We want to create a deterrent against people who abuse others on tape. So who made the tape? Put her in jail. And lets not forget these girls threatened Victoria after the abuse, knowing they had that tape from which to blackmail her, or continue their abuse at a later date..

Gomp and about the rapists, rape isn&rsquot about sex, it&rsquos about power, control, and torturing the victim.The rapist does not feel any empathy or remorse. Rapists however usually don&rsquot put it on tape and upload it to YouTube, so rape victims at least have a chance at getting over the situation.Now in the case of child pornography, these kinds of rapists do make films of it and these kinds are the absolute worst kind for precisely that reason.

The problem of abuse is bad enough, we cannot measure how much damage is done by the actual acts, but when it&rsquos recorded, then the person who recorded it intended to keep a lasting memory of that act. If they feel remorse or empathy wouldn&rsquot you expect them to destroy the recording?

So if they keep it there are all sorts of evil things they can do with it. They can threaten to show the tape to the world, using blackmail tactics. &ldquoEither you do as we say from now on, or we will upload the tape to Youtube and show the world&rdquo

Or it could be &ldquoEither you do what we want or we will show this tape to your boyfriend.&rdquo or maybe they just wanted to keep the tape and watch it over and over again. But if people like us can barely watch the tape, what were these girls thinking in making the tape? Did they intend on watching it for years, bragging about how they got away with beating her up like that?
GREGS BLOG

Sorry, this is an old one but I felt I had to respond. Excellent. Everything you said was right on the money. If it can not be understood by these statements, perhaps breathe is beng wasted.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Scott – Although I wish it was not available to the public where Victoria is living, apparently it is obviously out there. That is sad. I was hoping she could go somewhere and get some relief.

Sorry, really hurrying here. In reponse to one of your earlier questions to me about what was said in the car. You were right. I was responding to someone who got different information from somewhere. I don’t know where. I was trying to correct this and make the same response as you gave. I hope this is making sense. Because I am rushing here.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

On a lighter note. If Victoria is truly in Tampa Bay they are ranked number 8 in the nation for the best quality of water coming out of the tap. Also, Miami was number 4. So I guess two cities out of the top ten in the nation coming from Florida have the highest quality of water in the nation. Sort of scary. huh. But, it is nice to know I can drive a couple of hours away and not be afraid of being exposed to the bad water. lol.

Isn’t it truly sad that it is actually to the point of breaking it down by cities and not by states. I do take this situation extremely serious so do not think I am taking it lightly. Also, more scarey news. Their has been an increased level of pharmaceutical ingredients in drinking water. So now we are being exposed to medications from drinking water.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Amyv here are several reasons why I took the path I took.

1. Self love. I’m in love with myself, while a lot of others hate themselves.

2. Family honor/pride, I don’t want to go to prison because it brings shame to the positive members of my family.

3. I’m very intelligent, and psychologically strong, but I came from a poor family, I can’t win them all.

I’ll address all three, when I say I love myself I mean it on several levels. I love myself as an individual. I love what I represent, which includes my family and friends as extensions of myself. And I love God, which I believe I’m at oneness with through reason. Having this self love allows me to face any situation because I don’t accept any limitations, anything I can dream of I can do, whether I do them in the orthodox way or I have to create my own way through any means, I set a goal and I worry about how to create the way later, and other peoples opinions of me have little to no influence over what I think of myself. When I say I love myself through reason, it’s reason that leads me to care about teen violence, it’s reason which says self preservation of myself comes first, that includes self preservation of the extensions of myself, which includes the entire human which family/species which must be defended. They call this level of reasoning the highest, super consciousness, I’m sure Gomp has heard about it being a Buddhist, all of us are connected through cause and effect relationship, with reason being the driver of order. We are all connected through language which is the most obvious example of it, but we are also connected through universal consciousness (the one mind), and we are connected on the material/atomic/sub atomic (the one body), and once again reason is the ultimate director of the mind and body of life. It guides evolution as I see it, and so it’s not in the best interest of a species to have it’s young prey on itself, because doing this does not further the survival ability of the species, and that is reason. It would be nice to say my thinking is based on emotion but it’s really just based on what is in the long term best interest of the species, and this means as a species if we are going to solve the big problems of crazies driving us into extinction, we’d first have to solve the many smaller problems which we could unite around, such as keeping children safe. If human cannot agree to that then humans deserve the miserable future they produce for future generations.

Family honor and pride is related to self love. If you love yourself then you’ll love your family, and if you love your family then you don’t want to ruin their reputation by going to prison for something stupid. If you go to prison then you harm not just yourself, but anyone with your last name. So if you think of a family unit like a corporation, the family is everything, the mission/goal is growth and development, and if the youth all go to prison the family does not grow and as a result does not survive, so some families have developed a sort of group consciousness which goes against perhaps the typical western individualist mindset, but this group consciousness is why each individual member doesn’t want to go to prison. It’s not because they fear prison, it’s because going to prison means they’ll be less productive for their family members. Society has nothing to do with it, they’ll exploit society to profit for their family members. Criminal behavior is not excluded, only getting cause is perceived as wrong.
It’s the clan based structure, you can learn more about this if you are interested but I cannot talk about it too much here.

When I say I’m very intelligent, it’s not just myself, I’m not the first generation to go to college in my family, my parents went to college as well and were intelligent too. College degrees do not however equate into profit, and this is partially due to the job choices they made which didn’t pay well, but which are what I’d consider to be the social activist life paths. Unfortunately some members of my family attempted the criminal path, and despite what people are lead to believe, most successful criminals don’t end up any richer than the successful cops who police the crime. They get a lot of money sure, but when you are a criminal the money goes to paying off so many people or protecting yourself, or paying lawyers, or if you go to prison then you can’t expect your money to go to the prison with you, so in the end crime doesn’t pay. I think the motivator for most families who commit crimes is the lack of opportunity to make money, if you are poor (IE you don’t have enough money to pay your bills) then your options are limited. The main motivator for the typical criminal is profits, it’s a business like any other, it just happens to be treated as illegal by the government, and that means most &ldquocriminals&rdquo or people you perceive as criminals are just businessmen and aren’t any different from any other kinda businessman except that they are doing business in a sector or area the government says they can’t.

A good example is, if you are a father and you are raising your kids in a crappy neighborhood with gang violence, and all these problems, and crappy schools that are falling apart, well if you love your offspring you are going to want to get them out of that environment through any means available. Now lets say someone offers you a way out, but to get out you have to sell drugs for this character, because thats the guy who offered you the first opportunity, you take the opportunity, and lets say you manage to get away with selling this product for 5 years, your offspring are now in private school, you’ve moved up and out, you are in a better neighborhood, when suddenly the police raid you and take all you have, you are off to prison for 10-15 years, your wife ends up moving right back to the crappy neighborhood again, and your kids are without a father now, so they aren’t focused on school, and also they are in the crappy school again where they have to deal with metal detectors, gangs, guns, etc.

This is a portrait of one of the common situations which can tell you why an adult would choose a path of crime, but what about why a teenager would? Well if they are now in the crappy school and their mother is working two jobs and living in such a bad neighborhood, at some point they get tired of being bullied everyday in school and they join a gang, partially because they don’t have their father around. So now they grow up involved with whatever the gang is involved with. The main source of bad situations is having bad friends. Most of the kids who grow up in these environments don’t have access to quality friendships with people who aren’t criminals or involved in something because in this environment all the people who have money, nice houses, cars, are the criminals, and all the people who are struggling working a day job aren’t criminals but aren’t really getting very far in life financially. So it ultimately comes down to money and power, the typical male has the drive to have money and power as a way not only to protect his family, but also because thats what attracts females, and it’s been that way in every society since forever no matter the level of education.

Just for the record, I was never a drug dealer, or gang member, or that kinda criminal, I was always extremely intelligent, so I had better options from which to choose from. Had I not been so intelligent then my options would be limited. It’s just like how you have some people who just have athletic talent, or who are models, or who have artistic talent, the difference is if you start at the bottom you need to have some talent or you’ll have no chance at all at moving up and probably will resort to crime. Example being like how some kids just aren’t that smart, they aren’t an athlete, they aren’t a model, well if a kid is mediocre in the wrong environment they’ll become a criminal precisely because you don’t have to be all that smart, or good looking, or know how to play sports, or have a good personality, all you have to do to be a criminal is obey the orders of the person above you who tells you exactly what to do and you’re profits are guaranteed. Drugs sell themselves so you don’t need to be a good salesman, you just have to obey the basic rules and you’ll make as much money as a person who went to college and who actually had talents.

The environmental basically separates and weeds out the weak from the strong. If you are in the wrong environment and you are weak, you’ll die. And as bad as some parts of the USA might seem, it’s nothing like how places in the third world countries are. In the USA it’s bad but at least theres police, and at least theres doctors, and at least theres colleges where you can go and become these things. In other countries the gangs and mafias are basically the only option period, theres nothing else but selling drugs, just look at Afghanistan, or Columbia for example where the entire economy is basically organized crime and drug dealing, or Nigeria where it’s all fraud and spamming or starve.

So as I see it, no matter the environment I’m placed in, I’m strong enough psychologically for any environment. But I don’t think everyone is like me and so I think we need to regulate the environment so people who have grown up sheltered can actually survive without going crazy from all the violence.
I don’t think every person is psychologically equipted for bringing order to chaos, basically order is created through reason and not everyone would know what to do if the government, police, and all these authority figures stopped protecting them and just left. We saw that when we looked at Hurricane Katrina, when left in a state of nature some of the people broke down, some resorted to looting, some people went crazy, and some people saw that situation as a chance to be a hero and did a lot of heroics but overall we need order, and we need reason as the mechanism to create a safe environment because they don’t create themselves.

Amy if you want to know more about me, we can talk over email rather than here. autogregs@hushmail.com

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December 4, 2008

GregS

And to make it more clear, reason=ethics, I keep saying reason but I don’t think many people really know what I mean. Reason=look out for yourself, protect yourself, even with force if necessary.

The reasonable team almost always wins a war. The perfect example of when emotions fail, if you Bin Laden were to go on TV and tell Americans to love him, and that he’s just misunderstood, and try to win sympathy, and support, over time he people who give their emotions to this maniac will be blowing themselves up in the name of Allah.

Do you see? Reason keeps you from ever being a sucker to this guy, the government, or anyone else. Reason tells you that you have property rights, they might try to tell you that you really don’t own anything and that the government owns all property, even your body, but reason tells you that you own yourself, and that you aren’t owned by any external entity that isn’t directly related to you.

I think the problem I see in society is that nobody knows how to use reasoning anymore, it’s not even taught. Everyone gets taught religion, but almost nobody is taught reasoning, which is why there are attitudes like “turn the other cheek” and “love your enemies” and “blow yourself up for Allah”.

If I insulted anyones religion I apologize, but I disagree with any God or entity which does not advocate reason as a virtue.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

I’m not really good at explaining my thoughts in the blog format, thus the typos. So this is a basic wikipedia on reason. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason

Reason is the source of order in the universe, to understand that is to understand the nature of what it means to be aware and awake. Those without reason are asleep.

Also check out homeboy industries, a rational solution http://www.homeboy-industries.org/

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

phil most girls i know dont even fight and theyd be terrified of going to a juvie even a pretty tame juvie. so im not sure what your daugter means when she says nobody.

and phil there juvies and theres juvies. prison juvies are like real prison only you get to go to school there and you dont get beat up or worse by grownup prisoners. but they put you in a really tiny cell no window its just like in prison and it cn be real depressing. so if that doesnt scare april prison wpuldnt scare her either. so what do we do kill her? you cant just kill ppl or put them in prison forever just because maybe they are not afraid of prison. you dont know. maybe aprils terrified already. you dont know.

and phil why would a misdemener beating be worth a year of home arrest and six more months of no weekends and three years curfew to some girl? maybe if shes got no life and doesnt have friends and doesnt go out at all but all the girls even the bullies i know would freek. i mean a juvie or jail even prison you can boast you went there and its gonne impress some ppl and but home arrest and curfew isnt cool in any way its just lame and ppl gonne just laught at you that you got caught. i think the prison juvie is to show her how real prison looks but it isnt the real punishment its the three years of home arrest and curfew thats the killer and if you daughter doesnt think its a big deal does she ever go out with friends and stuff?

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

greg the only sense i can make of what you keep saying is that its ok to be unfair and cruel to april if thats gonne scare other bad girls from beating up ppl. i mean you once said april must be sacrificed. i dont agree with that at all. and i dont agree being unfair and cruel to her is gonne help stop bullies i think it may even make things worse if anything.

and greg its not enough to reason you must get your facts right. like i said kids get spanked all the time and i looked it up and its legal in all 50 states. and some buliies get spanekd and smacked and stuff at home a lot and it doesnt seems to help at all. you can get beat too much at home too you know and its nt good. anyway if you dont hace the facts right you can reason all night long and you gonne get things wrong maybe like very wrong and thats what happens to you.

and greg sometimes you get your facts so wrong i wonder if you care maybe you think if you can change whats real with the power of your mind i mean you said you can do anything.

anyways its just not true that nobody expects april to go to adult prison theres been like hundreds of ppl on blogs saying put her in adult prison and lots of ppl predict shes gonne get at least 2 3 years in prison. and like i said thats adult prison in florida they put fourteen year old kids with grownups in prison thats a fact. and shes charged as an adult!!! so how can you now say no one expects her to go to prison.

and greg the other girls arent adults!!! none of them were 18 when they beat tori and only brittis 18 now. and kaylas only 15!!! so now you want kayla to go to adult prison???

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Electronica if you don’t think that making an example out of April Cooper will prevent other bad people from doing what she did, and if you think it will make the situation worse, do you mind explaining why?

Spanking is considered child abuse if its caught on tape.I’ve seen parents face child abuse charges for spanking their children in public. There used to be a time when teachers could spank bullies, and this is what worked for previous generations to keep these kinds of kids under control.

And I don’t think anybody seriously believes April Cooper will go to adult prison. Anyway if all my facts are wrong, and if my reasoning is wrong, and if you think punishment wont work on one hand but on the other hand you said you’d rather die than go to prison for 5 years, well which is it?

In another debate with someone else you said the fear of prison scares you, but then you say it wont work on other girls? How can we scare them straight then?

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December 4, 2008

Phil

So much to comment on its always hard to know where to begin .I do not claim that all jails are the same can you imagine the of fear the person that will end up with brit h as a cell mate .That person may have the same claim as what did i do to deserve such cruelity ,as a guy she scares me . What you are saying Eloctronica about alot of other people saying about April is true alot of people want her in adult prison for a long time .that shows me that most people really think she is deserving of such punishment I think it is deserved .The same could be said about April . Would it be fair to put her in a prison amongst non violentoffenders then it would not be fair to them . Jail is a hard place to talk about fair .April ‘s offenses were cruel and violent and no one can promise that jail time will be easy or free of danger . I am thinking that you or most of your friends would have never done the things that April did ,the ones that would or could have to know that whats await them and it is not worth doing the deed .And no we don’t kill her and I really hope its in a Juv prison .but 3 months an conditions will never be the proper sentence as i see it .

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December 4, 2008

Phil

Don’t forget they can always refuse any plea deal and take a chance whith either a jury or even just a judge who is trained to be impartial and not be caught up in the hype but if I were April and got offered 2 to 3 years I wouldn.’t take a chance on either if it was 4 to 5 years i would probally not take it . if it was less than 1 year I would feel like i won the lottery

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

amy what i meant about britti telling tori she learned her lesson is that its what tori did not who she was that got her bullied. sometimes bullies like phils friends pick on someone because shes retarded or fat or muslim or cause she likes girls. and they keep bullying her and bullying her even for years and theres nothing she can do to stop it and it can make her wanne kill herself.

and amy how could i not agree they were playing judge and juri i mean thats what ive been trying to tell you all right from the start!!! i mean they like accused her of being a bully and a liar and decided to fight her and when she refused to fight they just beat her and humiliated her and that was real wrong.

and amy april wasnt trying to injure tori thats obvious if you watch the vid. i mean april was trying to humiliate tori and to hurt her but not injure her. i mean like if you spank a child its your intention to hurt but not to injure!!! so april too was trying to hurt but not to injure.

oh and amy a jump is a lot worse than taking turns. a lot worse!!! if some ppl jump you theres no way you can block most hits its almost impossible to defend yourself you go down real fat and get punched from all directions kicked in the head too and stuff its terrifying. and if you get injured ppl dont notice they just keep pounding and its like hard to even breath so you dont manage to yell im hurt! really amy it doesnt compare a jump is much worse.

and amy boot camp may be good but its never done for years its like too intense and they never do much school there i mean the point of it is to run around a lot and say yes sir a lot and get pushed arounf and play soldiers it can be fun for a while but i dont think even the marines do it for several years in one stretch day after day that would drive ppl crazy they would shoot their officers like in that movie i saw i mean girls in boot camps couldnt shoot anyone but they could try to kill themselves and they would.

and amy dont you know in most boot camps the ppl that run them beat up the kids there its like official policy and sometimes they kill them and sometimes kids die out of exhostion or heat stroke and stuff so it isnt always safe. i dont know why grownups dont manage to punish kids without killing them i think once they say your bad your life doesnt really count for much anymore.

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

greg im gonne explain later not now im tired and its gonne be a long explanation cause if i make it short ppl like you will make wrong assumptions and like jump to wrong conclusions. from wwhat you wrote its obvious you dont have a clue what im thinking you try to mock me but i know what im thinking and it makes sense.

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Thanks for the water info Amy. That’s good news for those who live in Tampa Bay and Miami. Tori lives in Tampa Bay but I bet she has her eye on Miami. )

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Electronica, you make an interesting point that April was trying to humiliate Tori and not injure her. I wonder if April’s attorney will claim the same thing during the trial. I doubt it. By the way Electria I’m not sure that Tori thinks the same way you do about April not wanting to injure Tori. Yes April could have easily done worse to Tori than she did but she did beat her up quite easily. I think April will accept a plea deal if it’s sweet enough.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Poor April Cooper. Victorias parents could barely recognize their daughter, but April Cooper wasn’t trying to hurt Victoria when she did this to her face
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q174/psala623/…
http://bp3.blogger.com/_0jhe4AbFCnY/SGRPWyCihPI/A…

i136.photobucket.com/albums/q174/psala623/81167_orig_hairdye3msns_468x312.jpg

It was just a minor spanking. And Victoria can get another tooth and a new eye.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Poor April Cooper. Victorias parents could barely recognize their daughter, but April Cooper wasn’t trying to hurt Victoria when she did this to her face

i136.photobucket.com/albums/q174/psala623/81167_orig_hairdye3msns_468x312.jpg

bp3.blogger.com/_0jhe4AbFCnY/SGRPWyCihPI/AAAAAAAABCQ/dKTkptdNTzA/s400/vic-lindsay-after-2.jpg

i136.photobucket.com/albums/q174/psala623/81167_orig_hairdye3msns_468x312.jpg

It was just a minor spanking. And Victoria can get another tooth and a new eye.

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December 4, 2008

GregS

Electronica, I’m unable to understand why you think April Cooper wasn’t trying to hurt Victoria. I’m not saying April Cooper did all the damage you see in those pictures but she did a great deal of that damage. From the look of Victorias face in these pictures, they were trying to hurt her, maybe they weren’t trying to kill her but when you punch a person in the face many times with a closed fist, the goal is to knock them out.

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

phil prison juvie is only for violent kids so kids who didnt harm anyone wouldnt be with april.

and its not like april killed someone there like thousand of kids like her so i wouldnt be afraid rooming with her. britti maybe but april no. and i know girls who done stuff like april not all of it of course but start beating up someone yes for sure.

and phil is april goes to adult prison she would be with ppl who murder and rape and stuff. like the girl i read about she stole from her grandparents when she was 13 and her cellmate in prison was some woman who hacked someone to pieces. they got only one prison for women down there i think so like i said its murderers and rapists and ppl who tortured children and stuff. i dont think its fair to say thats like being with april.

and phil i hope april and kayla doesnt have to go to adult prison or even adult jail i hope persecution or the judge are gonne be senseble and give them home arrest and lots of charity work. i mean they should get juvie too but they got charged as adults so i guess thats not possible.

greg idk why you say no one expects april to go to prison ive seen lots of ppl say thats what gonne happen even ppl on tv im pretty sure so i hope they are wrong but they sure expect her to go to prison not for ever but for two three years. and if the judge cant put her in a juvie anymore cause shes charged as an adult its possible he will put her in jail or prison cause ppl would complain othrwise i mean ppl like you and phil and amy and nav and others here too no?

and greg how come you say no one expects april to go to prison but you say kayla must go to prison. shes fifteen!!!

anyways gn.

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Greg, those aren’t photos of Tori beaten up. That’s someone else. Tori’s photos with black eyes aren’t as bad as that girls photos. And I bet Hardcastle did 80% of the facial damage to Tori in the assault. Maybe more.

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December 4, 2008

gompertz

Not that it really matters much but I was surprised to see a long quote or series of quotes originally posted by Greg on the subject of rape preceded by what looks like my name, as if it were addressed to me. Now I just reread these quotes and, just like the first time I read them there is not anything whatsoever in these statements that I have had the slightest inclination to disagree with. Am I accused of being “soft” on rape? Was it that by advocating the death penalty for rapists I was in some twisted way condoning rape? I fit really was for me, I am perplexed. Where did I go wrong? What did I say to incur such blame? Answers? Anyone?

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December 4, 2008

Electronica

oh and greg its easy to make fun of me when you say i said stuff i didnt say. i didnt say it was just a minor spanking. i just said theres a diff between trying to hurt as in injure and hurt as in cause pain and humiliation.

and april didnt punch tori in the face many times with a closed fist. and you know she could have injured tori real bad once she was on the bed i mean she couldnt move and april could hit from above should coulda broke her nose and teeth easy. but you not gonne admit it.

and its britti who hits hard on the vid. and lots of kids got black eyes me too doesnt prove april wanted to send tori to hospital.

anyway its real tiring having to explain everything two three times you dont bother to read what i wrote you just take cheap shots and me and its tiring having to explain i didnt say this and i didnt say that.

now really gn i really gotta go to sleep.

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December 4, 2008

gompertz

BTW just clicked on that photobucket album, and I immediately recognized it as a something that had been shown to be a hoax months ago. I remember when I first saw it, I was horrified, then I realized it was some joker playing tricks. I should know, I make jokes sometimes too. lol Victoria lokked bad, but really, not quite as bad as that. I want to see if I can find the original site if it’s still up.

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December 4, 2008

Scott

Gomp, Tori’s black and blue photos might still be up at The Ledger. If not there then Google would likely have them.

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December 4, 2008

Phil

To Electronica .I’m a bit sad on how upset you appear to be getting .As i have said this case stirs the emotions like no case i have seen . When it is all said and done I think a plea bargin will insure April is in juv and not adult prison . I dont think kayla will get much .There are kids in Juv who sell drugs and b&amp e’s that have not done viloence April has done violence .giggled in court about it when charged .I really admire your compassion and please believe when i say it seems to serve you well I don’t know that April is deserving of all the emotianl support that you are expending . That being said you know your own mind better than us .April struck her many times,the reason i am stating the obvoius about that is Victoria vision is still fussy in one eye the repeated blows had to have an effect on this added to what Brit M did, This cannot be excused with She wasn’t trying to hit her to hard . When she started hitting Victoria again after Brit h clocked her by the coach this forced Victoria to try to get away from her forcesing her back into Brit h . To me it was Brutal . It just didn’t stop .April made sure that when Brit was taking a break that the violence continued . hope tomorrow fins you better
Amy V
I still can’t believe that people think that because some facts came out that Victoria has problems and may not be likesd by her peers should make any difference in alloting the proper blame . If anything every time i hear one of these accusations it proofs to me that this was a planned attack and payback was delivered

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Scott – It has taken a long time for our justice system to become the mess that it is now. Too harsh punishments for non-violent criminals to lieniant for violent ones. Over crowding, lack of funding, short staff etc. Their are budgets set up for cable t.v., game boy,etc. I believe these funds should be allocated to higher pay, hence leading to better educated staff and more staffing. That would take care of some of the out of control behavior that goes on behind bars.

To the men and women correction officers who are truly trying to make a difference I apologize. You are in for an up hill battle. If they had adequate staff with better pay, perhaps the prisons could be controlled the way they should be. Just as violent crimes should not be tolerated in socity nor should they be tolerated in the justice system. If that means keeping violent offenders in lock down weeks at a time for fighting so be it. Paying your debt to society does not mean going to prison for a beat down. This is exactly the type of behavior we are trying to deter in society.

Democrats, Republicans, Liberals or conservatives alike have done nothing over many terms to correct the current system. So why would you expect the people now going into the white house to do take care of anything differently? Perhaps an extreme public outcry for change will help. I really don’t know what it will take.

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December 4, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Sorry to disagree but I believe these girls should not be given martial arts as an option. To me that would only inable them to inflict more punishment than they already think is their god given right.

To many questions about their true desire to inflict pain without any remorse or concern for victims well being at all. No question in my mind but in others.

Perhaps another method of learning self control would be better suited for violent offenders. One that would not involve the capacity to teach them skills to inable them to inflict more harm. Also, to boost their bullying to a whole new level. I do know martial arts is not all about fighting. Many more aspect to it than that. Healthy for some but, I question any instructor who would qualfy them for this training at this time.

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December 4, 2008

gompertz

Amy, never did I mean to suggest that any of these girls should be given martial arts lessons without qualification. I see where I may have given that impression because sometimes I am not explicit in what I say, and if I were more explicit my posts would be even longer and more tedious than they are. For example, with April or Britt you could not put them into a martial arts class just like that. Their behavior on the video may show sociopathic tendencies or at the very least some type of condition that would require therapy, of course impossible to tell specifically. When people with emotional or psychological problems are exposed to martial arts, or meditation, their condition will only get worse, and may become incurable. Any instructor who would take such violent people as students should be investigated, and I cannot imagine even a disreputable teacher risking it all on such violent people. If there is any hope for these girls to improve, it would have to come through more traditional western therapies, psychiatry and such. Only later, if they show improvement through these western methods of treatment (and of course we don’t know if that is possible) can you proceed with eastern methods.

The eastern methods are meant to get you in touch with deeper levels of your being, and how is that possible with the kind of mental dissociation we find in those with psychological problems? The tragedy is that people who might be helped by western therapy and counseling may not find the kind of help they need because of the lack of dedicated professionals in those fields. Since you are in the medical field I am sure you know a lot of dedicate and competent professionals first hand, I know there are many, but there never seem to be enough to meet the needs for treatment, both for physical and psychological illnesses. That is why it is possible that someone like April or Brittani might not be hopeless cases, but may be lost simply because there are not enough qualified people available to provide the help they need. As I say, we just don’t know and there are a lot of variables we cannot calculate.

When I say I want April to receive training I am of course speaking of the best case scenario, I am speaking of what I wish would happen. Just like I wish that all would feel remorse and Victoria would forgive them. As for faking remorse, I think the victims of violence are the best judge of whether their attackers are sincere in their remorse. Anyway, I am well aware of the obstacles to the realizations of these perfect scenarios. I just don’t see any harm in raising the possibility that they may come true, though it might take a miracle. It is a part of my belief system that we must hope for the best even if it seems impossible to bring it about. Sometimes people can surprise us. I agree with Electronica that sometimes it is the worst people who will come to your rescue when you need it the most. We don’t know, and I don’t think people can be reduced to what we see, even April and Brittani and the rest.

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December 5, 2008

Amyv

Getting extremely late so I will make this one short.

Electronica – I see a lot of support coming from you for April. I wish she would afford Victoria the same compassion. I commend you for your fierce convictions.

However, I do not believe that I will ever believe from viewing this tape that harm was not meant
to be done. Those were closed fist and their were
many blows. Also, an extreme need to humiliate Victoria was shown. Do Remember April went after her at least twice. Not just in the bedroom
So intent to cause bodily harm, sorry but absolutely yes.

I try to find some type of punishment you might find acceptable. Everyone is shot down. Ever one, including boot camp, is meet with much concern of death for this girl. Even long term house arrest is reason to bring up suicide. Therefore, I am at a lose as to what you think would be a fair punishment. You do admit this is a crime. However, any punishment suggested is to light. The lighest I can think of would be house arrest. Would this be extremely unpleasant for these girls of course. That is called punishment.

Also, Jumping vs. what happened to Victoria is worse. Debateable. I find them both repulsive. Anyone commiting either of these crimes deserves arrest and punishment. You stated during a jumping you do not have time to cry out for help. Well Victoria cryed out for help for 30 minutes with these girls and you see what that got her. Nothing but more humiliation and beating.

For God sake hand her the phone when she is begging, yes, begging for it. Let her go before 30 long, minutes go by. If you have a problem with her once again meet her out one person at time. Do not lay in wait for her. If beating her once, with several punches is not enough you are intending to cause harm. And, if you truly didn’t you might have done something unintentional and no jury in the world would feel sympathy for age then.

Do not mean to offend you although I believe I probably will. The problem with multiple hitting even if it is done one person at a time is where is the definite proof that B.H. did the most damage. It would seem reasonable. But, any one of those punches could have caused severe harm intended or not. Also, Victoria felt she became unconscious after April beat on her. That would lead to the medical conclusion that the concussion (which is a medical fact) was in fact inflicted by April. So great harm was done. Once again loss of some sight, black eye, several bruises and possible effects from concussion.

By the way has anyone every found out why Victoria was wearing a sling in one of the police photos. That would indicate damage to her arm as well. I believe it was the right. The sling is clearly visible in some of the pictures taken by the police. gn

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December 5, 2008

Scott

Amy, Gomp, can you imagine April Cooper and Brittini Hardcastle with black belts in karate? Yikes! )

Amy, it’s sad that jail budget’s are set up to include cable television, Game Boy etc. It’s hard to believe. And some American’s still cannot afford cable television. Criminals are in jail for a reason and to offer them luxurious or nice extra’s to live in jail with is ridiculous. I had to laugh when I read when what spacey Casey Anthony has been allowed to eat and buy in jail. It’s mindboggling.

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December 5, 2008

Phil

I don’t really understand the whole Martial arts debate it seems to me that countrys where this is praticed and common have as many crime issues as the rest of the world . that being said ,when someone goes to prison or faces these life altering charges it seems to go 1 of 2 ways . Some use this as an oppurtunity to make ammends and change there lives. There are many people who do not re offend and they use counciling ,religion, family support or even the types of dicipline s that are being discussed here to help them become better members of society. Many others do not and use these same methods just to get lighter sentences ,of course these are the ones that will be on the news . I would have to say until Brit H completd many years of anger managemnt that giving her martial arts training would not be in the best interest of society.Do you guys think that after this is over that this will be the last we hear of these 5 or more likly that they will re-offend .Interested to know what you think.

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December 5, 2008

GregS

Scott I think it depends on the criminals. I think there should be special maximum security prisons for violent criminals like rapists and murderers. If the only prison you have in your state is a maximum security prison then thats a problem and I agree that April Cooper doesn’t belong in maximum security prison.

I do think however that non violent offenders should be given the luxuries like gameboy and cable tv. Say the people in prison for something like check fraud or some other non violent crime, they aren’t violent so a lot of money can be saved in staffing, and they have skills so they should be able to make their own money from within prison. They can write books, do interviews, and should have contact with the outside world using the internet.

You need rewards like these to modify behavior. Behavior cannot be modified by punishment alone. In the super max prison, they keep you in a cell 23 hours a day, and they even offer rewards for good behavior in these prisons so it’s always important to set aside some of the budget for stuff like gameboys, and games, and movies, and books, even if they have life in prison, let them have something to live for.

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December 5, 2008

GregS

Phil this is why I said the best teachers select their students, they don’t just teach anybody. Yes you can probably find some American teacher to teach you how to kick and punch but thats not the same as martial arts. The art of fighting is about a lot more than kicking and punching, Bruce Lee once said that belts are only used to hold his pants up.

An actual martial artist must be psychologically prepared for war. The meditation is an ancient method of training soldiers. Just like in the US military, not everyone gets to rise through the ranks, it’s the same in the martial arts societies, they have systems to determine who advances and who doesn’t for it seems to be at least as good as the western system. I cannot put a lot of faith in the western system of psychiatry, because it doesn’t seem to work very well, but it works for some people, and for those people I’d recommend psychiatry. Psychiatry never worked well for me personally.

I read and looked up information, the reason why nothing is being done about sociopaths who are violent, or just the violent in general, is because talk therapy does not work on these people. The problem is literally beyond talk treatment and psychiatry is not currently a hard science.

Robert Hare went to several prisons, hes studied the brains of the people there, 20% of the people in prison are psychopaths. The people who were psychopaths had brains which literally cannot respond correctly to emotions and abstract reasoning and this was proven as a fact using brain scans, not simply talk. So now the problem is that there is a lack of funding to actually find a treatment, we assume no treatment is possible but it might be that we never actively looked to discover a treatment.

For those who want knowledge here are some articles and videos
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_f...
http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/may/16/kent-kiehl-scien...
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/13555/World_Wide_Mind_P...

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December 5, 2008

Scott

Greg, I like your idea about maximun security prisons for violent offenders. But I can’t agree with you about non violent criminals being given luxuries and toys in jail. They are in jail for a reason and that’s because they broke the law.

Yes Greg April Cooper does not belong in a maximum security prison. Absolutely not. But what about Brittini Hardcastle? I don’t think so as well even though she was more violent to Tori than April was.

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December 5, 2008

Phil

I don’t believe Brit h and the reat of them are psychopaths I think they meant to punish Victiria and planned to do so but it got way out of hand .A
psychopath has no regrets or consciense in thier acts. I am not saying this as excuse for thier actions nor to use this as a point foe a more liniant punishment . I am a firm believer that once the price is paid that these girls are not above redemtion and should not be wriiten off . If any of them re-offend then all bets are off

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December 5, 2008

GregS

Scott not everybody who breaks the law is a bad person. Not everybody who breaks the law is harming others. You have people who are non violent who break the law which basically means they committed either a victimless crime, a drug crime, or a financial crime of some sort.

These sorts of people belong in a prison which allows the prisoners to be rehabbed. The system of behavior modification requires both a reward mechanism and a punishment mechanism, you need both the carrot and the stick, if you only offer the stick then they’ll turn against the system.

This is the problem with our system right now, we only offer the stick. You disobey the government and you get the stick. They even give you the stick for just having an income in the form of taxes. You get shafted by basically everyone in authority and all this does is make people distrust and hate authority.

If you want to know why my generation distrusts and or hates authority, it’s because all authority is doing to my generation is giving us the stick. Electronica even agrees with me that the youth are only given the stick. I’m all for punishment but I’m also all for rewarding good behavior, we have to give people incentive to be good, not just punish people for being bad.

A lot of people going to prisons for selling drugs, prostitution, copyright violations and intellectual property theft, hacking, and any number of these sorts of crimes haven’t really directly harmed anyone, so why should we make prison miserable for them as if they killed or raped someone?

If you are in prison because you simply broke the law, you should be given incentive to change your life. Some drug dealers for example may have come from a life where they never had cable tv, they never had access to a library, or any of these sorts of thing. Maybe these drug dealers should be allowed to get an education while in prison.

What about hackers and con artists? These types are highly intelligent, and because they made on little mistake they are now in prison. They have skills, they have talents, they just directed them into the wrong areas. Why shouldn’t we use rewards to give them incentive to direct their talents into the right area?

If we punish them too and treat them like murderers and rapists, they’ll just continue to distrust and hate authority and continue working against you. You want to get them on your side right? This is the problem with the current political line of thought, it’s either you have to be tough/stupid on crime to the point of giving life in prison / the death penalty to drug dealers,

or you have to be so soft that you want to let out murderers and rapists. Why can’t we be both tough and smart? The drug laws are tough and dumb. Most of our laws and even how we design our prisons are tough and dumb. Tell me how this government and how these authorities ever reward good behavior?

If you are a good person you get to work hard, grow old and die. If you aren’t a good person then you get punished. Sounds to me like you get to choose only how you’ll be punished, either under the whips and chains of poverty, or literally behind the bars of prison, and really to me this is an unfair situation for the majority of people and this is why the majority of people aren’t trusting authority anymore. What does authority do for the people besides gun control, building prisons, and creating dumb laws/excuses to put people into the prisons?

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December 5, 2008

Greg.S

If you only offer the stick then it’s very similar to training a dog and only training that dog through punishment. We don’t treat dogs this way because it’s considered abuse or torture, yet we allow our government to treat the general public this way? I’m tough in violent crime, but the prisons aren’t filled with violent criminals. If the prisons were filled with the violent then nobody in any community or neighborhood would be complaining. The reason people don’t trust the government is because the government witch hunts rather than use precise instruments to target the individuals who fit the profile of a violent criminal.

Back to the dog analogy, if you train a dog, you offer the treat as the &ldquoreward&rdquo, and you offer the whip as the &ldquopunishment&rdquo, and this is the method we use to tame all animals, dogs, lions, any animal that has a brain can be trained like this. However when you only beat an animal, you only offer it pain, and the animal begins to become violent in response to that abusive treatment. This is what &ldquoauthority&rdquo is currently doing to the youth. Authority basically offers nothing, in fact authority keeps taking stuff away, taking away freedoms that previous generations had, creating a debt and telling the young people to pay for the sins of their parents, sending the young people to war and telling them it’s a privilege to die to protect the older generations, telling young people they have to be even more educated than their parents to do the exact same job and have the exact same standard of living. If we top this all off with higher taxes, so that the young generations have to work even harder to live the same way previous generations did, while at the same time creating more and more laws, which target more and more people until basically every single young person in this country is a criminal, what trust will the young have in authority? And why should young people trust an authority that only knows how to punish?

I think we need to offer REWARDS to teens who go down the right path. And we should reward adults for NOT being violent. If there is no difference in how you’ll be treated by the authorities whether you are violent or not, then you’ll have no incentive to be non violent. And if non violent people are bullied by both the government authorities and the street thugs then why be non violent?

Use Electronica as an example, she’s smart, young, and likely to be a good person, we should have a system of rewards designed to reward this kinda behavior when we see it in young people. Currently we don’t have any rewards at all, we just keep asking more from young people, and punish more in an attempt to be tough on crime, but we don’t segregate the different kinds of criminal and when we talk about being tough on crime we talk about it in way which to a young person ends up sounding “lets get tough on young people”, and thats not how we should do it. We need young people like Electronica to be rewarded so that it will encourage others to follow that path, and yes we have to punish young people like April Cooper and Brittini Hardcastle, but they go into a separate category due to the nature of their crime and the fact that they are known violent offenders.

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December 6, 2008

Electronica

ok ppl im going to try to explain the best i can cause its like ppl dont understand me.

theres hurt and hurt theres harm and harm. theres pain and then theres like real injuries. black eyes and bruises are pain not real injuries you dont need no hospital for that. broken nose and knocked out teeth are real injuries.

when tori went down april didnt hit the way you hit if you wanne injure someone. she just didnt is all. its on the vid and ether you know something about beatings and know its true or you dont and you shouldnt be saying anything about it.

scott agreed with me he said april coulda hit tori much harder and meaner when she was down. scotts sometimes confused on facts and thats frustrating but when he sees stuff with his own eyes he tells it like it is he doesnt ignore the truth. and saying april wasnt trying to really injure tori isnt saying what she did wasnt wrong! i never said that. scott didnt say that he says they must be punished. and i do too. but i get atacked scott doesnt how come?

amy what if you spank a little boy and ppl say you tried to hurt the boy you tried to harm the boy. how can you argue with them they will say look the boys crying and look red behind same as black eyes you hurt and harmed that child.

and you gonne say thats not the same like april beating tori but thats just it! dont you see what april did isnt the same as when some gang decides to put some guy in a hospital for disrespecting them or when some criminals decide to break someones arms and legs and head for snitching? it just doesnt compare but ppl make it look like maybe april tried to kill tori!

and amy what if your daughter like slaps some guy and ppl said she tried to hurt him she tried to harm him she broke the law shes a violent criminal she belongs in maxsec prison with ppl who murder. if you say thats crazy she just slapped him ppl will say oh a nail can take out an eye dont you care if a boy goes blind and oh a slap can catch you offguard and if you fall and hit your head you can die your daughters real lucky he didnt die and shes old enough to know better to know he coulda lost an eye or died so she didnt care if she blinds him or kills him your daughter is a real monster!

and again a slap is nothing like what april did i know that but thats the point what april did is nothing like what ppl do when they try to really hurt someone it doesnt compare at all. aprils not that same like ppl who realy try to break bones and break heads and knock out teeth and stuff and there are ppl like that even kids. so yes punish april but ppl pls dont lie about what she meant to do.

so just be fair april tried to beat up tori real bad but she didnt try to injure her real bad she coulda done that and she chose not to do that the proofs right on the video.

so i tried to write this up with great care so everyone understands. checked spelling. used punctuation. does anyone still really not understand what im saying?!?

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December 6, 2008

gompertz

So much to say, so little time. Let me reply to Phil’s question about martial arts and the prevalence of crime in Asian countries. Buddhist countries have had their share of war and crime, and the first Dalai Lamas were put in power by Mongol armies who used violence against the sects opposed to the Dalai Lamas group. Don’t bother checking the Wikipedia on that, they often do a poor job on Asian history, but that is another matter.

Still I don’t think we can blame eastern philosophy. Look at the bloody history of Christian Europe. All the wars, massacres, witch hunts, inquisitions, slavery, racism, colonialism that Europe have produced, do you blame Christianity for that? Well, I blame human nature, whether it is Europe or Asia or any other part of the world.

The problem for us is not what eastern philosophy has done or not done for Asia through history, but how can eastern philosophy help us in the west today. And there I can only give a tentative answer based on my own experience and reflections, for what it’s worth. First, many people feel that the kind of individualism we value in the west is a problem. The kind of freedom and autonomy we think are so important are not that important in the east and it is dangerous to transplant eastern ways into the alien environment of western culture. So we have to ask what can we take from eastern culture to correct our social problems without just adopting Asian ways in an unreflecting way. I have seen many westerners adopt Buddhist practices, for instance, but when they do it without thinking they do it in a superficial way. So western Buddhists think they are immersing themselves in Buddhism by filling their homes with incense and wind chimes and exotic Tibetan music and magic crystals. Often this turn to the east is a way of not dealing with your own personal problems. If a person is very passive and afraid to confront the competitive environment of the business world, they may use Buddhism as an excuse for not being more aggressive, since Buddhism traditionally counsels not giving vent to anger or aggression. And of course they are deceiving themselves into thinking that Buddhism is an easy way out of facing your fears. To really accept Buddhism is difficult and challenges you as much as being a true Christian or any other spiritual system.
Perhaps Buddhists have traditionally been too passive. Look at the recent massacre of peaceful Buddhist protesters in Burma. The violent people have an easy time dominating a nation of peaceful unarmed people, and that needs to change.

So coming back to the question, what can eastern philosophy do for us in the west? I propose approaching it through martial arts and starting with the young, and as I said before more people are sending their young children for lessons. If a child learns tae kwon do he will be better able to compete in the harsh world of making a living even if he never goes into the more internal aspects of the art. He will master his fears and not be inclined to passivity and so if he wishes to embrace a spiritual system like Buddhism he will do it from a healthier point of use than those who use Buddhism as an escape.

So can a Christian do martial arts? I don’t see why not, but many who call themselves Christians disagree. Especially when it comes to tai chi. That is a whole other discussion, but let me just say that those who oppose tai chi because it is claimed that it is contrary to religion, or to classical physics, are raising obstacles needlessly. Well, maybe it is contrary to classical physics, but Qi is real, and physics has moved on from the classical Newtonian system and physics today is compatible with the concept of Qi. What is Qi? Call it a form of energy, and it is also a principle, like entropy.

I believe we need this in the west, As for martial arts providing a correction to westenr individualism, we have to be clearer about what this means. It is not like the old debate about individualism versus collectivism of the socialist type. Both our individualism and socialism have become sterile and pointless, and both lead to producing stunted lives. Many in the west see their individualism leading to unhealthy isolation. Look at all the single mothers struggling to raise kids by themselves and see how many feel that their autonomy is so great. And why do so many take refuge in drugs or false ideologies. The answer is nt to trade in our individual freedom for the false security of collectivism, or socialism. We affirm our individuality by undergoing the discipline of the martial arts and realizing that individual potential in a way that makes us more productive members of society. And we become more healthy in mind and body.
Phil, I agree with you that we don’t know if BH or AC are psychopaths. I think it would be worth while for dedicated competent person in the martial arts community to see if they can be helped. And if such a person were available, I wouldn’t worry about them learning to be more brutal. The experienced teacher could quickly see what help, if any, could be furnished by making martial arts available. Especially if it is tai chi. There are instances of judges making tai chi instruction obligatory for some violent offenders, and reports are that these offenders have given up their violent ways. If that is so, maybe tai chi is better than western methods of treatment sometimes, especially when good therapists are in short supply. At least tai chi could be used as a supplement to western methods. I’m sure many violent offenders are not helped only because of the scarcity of professional help, so why not try other methods? We need to try as many ways as possible, whatever is available. Certainly we know that western therapy sometimes makes violent people more violent. So should we therefore give up on western therapy because it sometimes makes the situation worse? I don’t think so.

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December 6, 2008

Electronica

amy i didnt say boot camp is bad i just said they dont send kids there for years only for months thats not my fault i didnt make that rule. and i think three four months boot camp would be ok for april its just that if its longer it doesnt make much sense just like two years f marines boot camp doesnt make much sense does it.

and amy you said boot camps are safe so i just said well no they arent. im not saying april shouldnt go there juvies arent safe either and im ok with her there. i think boot camps and juvies are still much much safer than adult prison! its just that i dont know why grownups cant manage to punish kids without killing them so often and for no good reason too is all. im aloud to complain about that no?

and amy no i didnt say you have no time to cry for help during a jump i said you have no time to say your injured. thats very important if you think about that. amy two things can be repulsive but one can still be much worse than the other. really amy a jump is much worse.

and amy its true that we dont know for sure how much harm was caused by april and that is a problem i dont know how judges deal with that. but amy it isnt true it must have been april who gave tori a concusion i mean its obvious tori doesnt have a concusion yet on the videos only maybe at the very end after britti punches her real hard in the corner.

and amy i think the sling just helps the muscles relax tori was bruised badly on her arms it can hurt a lot thats something april did i think thats her fault and she did it on purpose too.

oh and amy i never heard of a prison juvie with cable tv and game boy! like regular tv and some table games like monopoly if that. prison juvies can be worse that adult prisons in some ways cause they constantly worry about what you do and they wanne rehabilate you so you start with like not allowed to do anything at all not even have a book in your cell or pen and paper you must earn that privilidge.

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December 6, 2008

gompertz

Electronjca, since your comments are addressed to Amy I’m just going to make a brief comment and then I have to get some sleep and Amy will have time to answer. I think you may have cleared up the mystery about Victoria wearing a sling, yes it doesn’t mean her arm was hurt.
I haven’t had a chance to keep up with the case and look at the video any more because of a lot of personal matters. But I wanted to ask your opinion. In the first sequence of punches that April threw, you could see about 25 punches in all and Victoria blocked about half of them. When she gets up she doesn’t seem badly hurt and I agree April didn’t seem intent on doing a lot of harm. But when she attacks again she blindsides Victoria and it sounds like a powerful hit and it seems to land at the side of the head, which as you know can be very harmful. So I get the impression that April was more aggressive in that second round of punches and I wonder if that means she was encouraged by the others to hit harder.
One more thing, Victoria said Kayla hit three times and BM five times, if I remember correctly. I don’t know if that happened or if Victoria’s recollection was messed up because of the beating. What I am wondering is if you know whether Victoria stated specifically how many times April hit her. That’s all I am going to comment on for now and the others will have time to respond to all the other points you make.

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December 6, 2008

Electronica

gomp tori first said kayla hi her 10 times later said 3 times. she didnt say how many times april or britti hit her theres no way she would know no one knows.

and gomp i cant tell where april first hit tori in the bedroom the camera moved and im not sure at all she hit her in the face. after the camera gets back you can see april hitting tori mostly in the arms and not with closed fists. tori moves on ok and later argues with the girls a lot there no way she could have a concusion yet.

and gomp there hurt and hurt april did hurt toris arm but didnt really injure it. its just the bruises can be so bad it hurts to move the hand so the sling helps to keep the arm in peace.

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December 6, 2008

Phil

To Electronic . Speaking only for myself I understood what you were trying to say . I just don,t agree ,. To claim that April was not trying to really hurt Victoria . Is way to fine of a distiction to make . If you hit someone as many time as she did I assume you are trying and doing damage . You and i can’t read her mind to know if she was really trying to hurt her or just trying to hurt her , Its not just the hitting its hitting her as she is comming off the couch Victoria is moving right into a right hand that throws her back,At this time she is almost stagering towards the door a . As well her body and mind are given no rest before Brit h is taking back over. I am really trying to see somethings the way you do but you seem to always be giving the benifit of the doubt to the ones doing the crime , Who cares if Kayla hit her 3 time or 10 times .To me she hit between 3 and 10 and kayla say she didn,t hit her at all . To me it was 6 against 1 all of them are more guilty than the sum of thier own individual actions .Victoria never had a chance and this is what lawyers always try to do minimize thier clients intent and point it somewhere else it was a team efforr from the whole bunch and again i understand what you are trying to say but April is very responsible for the damage Victoria suffered and continuus to suffer .Every hit taken soft or hard added to her pain and humiliation. If she was scared she was going to die it was not just because of Brit h . I think you are way to soft on some of these girls. You have called me cruel in the past for some of my statements and thats okay but I do not understand you continued defense for April .

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December 6, 2008

Scott

Electronica, you wonder why others don’t attack me? That’s not the kind of board this is. No one attacks you dear they only disagree with you at times. And I want to thank you for saying I speak the truth. I try to.

By the way Electronica April’s first punch hit Tori flush on the face and then Tori ended up on the bed where April roughed her up but didn’t crush Tori’s face like she could have. April even told Tori to go after she let her up off the bed. But Tori was set on talking and on getting hold of a cell phone. Does that mean the other girls would have letter Tori go? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll never know. In retrospect I wish Tori just left the house when April said she could go. But her pride got the best of her and she tried to talk things over and then things spun out of control.

P.S. – On the Topix board David Stein says the pre trial status hearing scheduled for December 5th was moved to January. This is just ridiculous. The trial might not start until after the one year anniversay of the assault on Victoria.

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December 6, 2008

GregS

So because Tori doesn’t have broken bones that makes it okay? What about the kidnapping? all the threats? the psychological humiliation? the taunting, and name calling? When one of the girls yells “Elmer” or something like that, April punches Tori so hard that we can hear the sound of it.

It didn’t look like April stopped out of fear of hurting Tori, it looks to me like April stopped because April was getting tired and probably she hurt her hand beating up on Tori. As I see it April was just taking a rest, and April and Brittini took turns on Tori. Tori said she wanted to leave, she wanted to go, but April and Brittini wouldn’t let her go. If it were just about humiliation why not let her run away? why did Hardcastle pin her in a corner like that?

They had the humiliating footage early on, so why did they keep filming after Tori asked for her phone saying she’ll leave?

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December 6, 2008

Phil

to gomp ‘Thanks for your response this is not my area of expertise so its very hard to disagree with you. I think its a little impratical and probally expensive to put in place your ideas. It would take to many years and tooa much money and again I don.t know if like the eastern philosoph is any better than ours An easy way of telling if these girls are that bad or phycopaths is if after all of this we hear about them than thats your answer . .i think though that everybody invoved will try to stay under the radar ,not including Mercades Mom.

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December 6, 2008

GregS

Scott, I’ve heard word that there wont be a trial. The plea deal offered each girl 6 months house arrest. So perhaps we can forget about the idea of a trial.

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December 6, 2008

GregS

And for the record I really disagree with giving AC and BH a mere 6 months of house arrest, but they’ve received a slap on the wrist and rumor is that they plan on accepting the deal. I’d say it’s unofficially already over, Electronica can be happy to know that none of these girls will even be going to Juvie.

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December 6, 2008

Amyv

Posted by Electronica

“and you gonne say thats not the same like april beating tori but thats just it! dont you see what april did isnt the same as when some gang decides to put some guy in a hospital for disrespecting them or when some criminals decide to break someones arms and legs and head for snitching? it just doesnt compare but ppl make it look like maybe april tried to kill tori!”

Sorry I still can’t cut and paste name of bloggers.

Electronica – The problem with this comment is they did send her to the hospital. She did require medical attention and still continues to. (For the loss of some vision in her eye). Also, Victoria did have damage to at least one of her teeth. since, you qualified this as real damage, then they did inflict that on her.
1. concussion – serious medical condition. May cause problems in the future not even detected. However, from what knowledge we have for now her headaches seem to have subsided or gone away altogether. Caused her confussion headaches, slight short term memory loss (if you accept April not knocking her out as confussion on Victorias part). As reported by victims stepmother this would require periodic medical test on the brain (approx. once every two to three months) to determined any problems that may arise. These types of headaches are severe like migranes, not mild like the ones associated with something like the flu.

2. Damage to ear – although determined temporary now. Blows to ear sufficient enough to cause swelling and fluid build up. Causing Victoria to temporarily lose some hearing. When I say temporary I believe the time line was a couple of months for this problem to subside. Besides the loss of vision in her eye, also suffered through not knowing extent if any of possible hearing loss.

3. Black eyes – swelling and bruising around both eyes. As already stated, once swelling went down one eye was determined to have some vision loss that will last a lifetime.

4. Damage to teeth – As Scott stated Victoria on the interview does seem to have a gap in her teeth that was not their in pictures posted of her before this beat down. Listen to the 911 tape when her friends mother states that she has a bloody mouth and she thinks a broken tooth. This mother was a nurse. Cost for repair easily $1,000. if not more.

Electronica -If this was not damage meant to be inflicted on this victim I don’t know what is? If you believe, as you yourself have stated, that Victoria became confused after April hit her on the bed, then their would be a great probablity that this is when the concussion occured.

It does not really matter if you can count how many times someone has hit you. I am sure when you are being brutally beaten like she was counting was not her type priority. Brittini H way to many times to county. Same with April Cooper.
The other two probably just a rough estimate on the victims part. With four people taking turm I am sure it is difficult to remember whether the other two hit 5, 10 or 12 times, which does not really matter anyway they hit.

Just like in a jumping, one girls hits more than the others. Perhaps one of the others is trying just as hard but just isn’t as good at it. Who deserves more punishment? This or course is up for debate.

As for my daughter slapping a boy and receiving punshment. I don’t know. It would depend what damage she had down, how many slap she had delivered, if she had other people involved in the beat down with her, etc.

When I make the comment about one punch can cause death or severe damage their is a purpose. If you throw just ONE punch and unintentionally killed someone, please blog this as it has happened in at least two school fights that I am aware of, your fate would be sealed.

You could really make an argument for a teenager that threw a punch, hit just the right spot in the head and severe brain damage or death occured. In a court of law he or she could be charged with attempted murder, manslaughter. etc. Would the punishment be just or unfair do not know. Since this person who threw one punch be put away for many years, I would believe no. However, I am sure that family members or a jury could argue otherwise.

The point I am trying to make with that is, if you lay your hands on someone, you must be ready for the consequences.

These girls meant to hurt her and Electronica – I am sorry but that is plain to me and I do believe to Scott. Remember, also as stated before, we only saw a portion of what happened. The half hour time line has not been disputed. Just the fact about whether or not it was caught on tape. So many more blow could have been thrown.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Scott

Greg, we don’t know if Tori didn’t have any broken bones. She may have had facial fractures as many times as she was punched in the face. I mean hairline fractures and the like. I find it hard to believe Tori didn’t suffer a broken nose as many times as Hardcastle punched her in the nose. Brittini even told Tori she was going to break her nose.

I would like to see a medical report of Tori and her injuries from her doctors. I bet she had a long list of injuries from the assault. That’s just awful. I bet Tori had a long list of injuries including a concussion, post concussion syndrome, cuts in her mouth, chipped teeth, inner ear problems and vision problems to name a few. Serous damage was done to Tori physically and emotionally even if the girls weren’t trying to kill or maim her and they weren’t in my opinion.

And Greg you might be right about slap on the wrist plea deals being accepted by the 5 girls. But I hope not. That wouldn’t be right or fair. Six months of house arrest for the 5 girls? I can’t believe it. I won’t believe it. The attack and improsonment of Tori was caught on video tape and millions of people have seen the video’s released to the public. This should be a slam dunk case for the prosecution. How did we go from these girls possibly being charged with life in prison which was much too severe to begin with to slap on the wrist house arrests? Maybe I could accept 6 months of house arrest for Kayla if some serious probabtion was attached to it. I want to give the same benefit of the doubt to Mayes but she was a driving force to get Tori as was April. And Brittini was brutal to Tori even though in her mind she was just punishing Tori.

I wonder if Tori or her family will file civil suits against these 5 girls and their families. They have every right to but I doubt they will. It seems to me the Lindsay’s would just like to get this whole ordeal over with and I can’t blame them.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Scott

Amyv
Dec 6, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Posted by Electronica

&ldquoand you gonne say thats not the same like april beating tori but thats just it! dont you see what april did isnt the same as when some gang decides to put some guy in a hospital for disrespecting them or when some criminals decide to break someones arms and legs and head for snitching? it just doesnt compare but ppl make it look like maybe april tried to kill tori!&rdquo

Sorry I still can&rsquot cut and paste name of bloggers.

Electronica – The problem with this comment is they did send her to the hospital. She did require medical attention and still continues to. (For the loss of some vision in her eye). Also, Victoria did have damage to at least one of her teeth. since, you qualified this as real damage, then they did inflict that on her.
1. concussion – serious medical condition. May cause problems in the future not even detected. However, from what knowledge we have for now her headaches seem to have subsided or gone away altogether. Caused her confussion headaches, slight short term memory loss (if you accept April not knocking her out as confussion on Victorias part). As reported by victims stepmother this would require periodic medical test on the brain (approx. once every two to three months) to determined any problems that may arise. These types of headaches are severe like migranes, not mild like the ones associated with something like the flu.

2. Damage to ear – although determined temporary now. Blows to ear sufficient enough to cause swelling and fluid build up. Causing Victoria to temporarily lose some hearing. When I say temporary I believe the time line was a couple of months for this problem to subside. Besides the loss of vision in her eye, also suffered through not knowing extent if any of possible hearing loss.

3. Black eyes – swelling and bruising around both eyes. As already stated, once swelling went down one eye was determined to have some vision loss that will last a lifetime.

4. Damage to teeth – As Scott stated Victoria on the interview does seem to have a gap in her teeth that was not their in pictures posted of her before this beat down. Listen to the 911 tape when her friends mother states that she has a bloody mouth and she thinks a broken tooth. This mother was a nurse. Cost for repair easily $1,000. if not more.

Electronica -If this was not damage meant to be inflicted on this victim I don&rsquot know what is? If you believe, as you yourself have stated, that Victoria became confused after April hit her on the bed, then their would be a great probablity that this is when the concussion occured.

It does not really matter if you can count how many times someone has hit you. I am sure when you are being brutally beaten like she was counting was not her type priority. Brittini H way to many times to county. Same with April Cooper.
The other two probably just a rough estimate on the victims part. With four people taking turm I am sure it is difficult to remember whether the other two hit 5, 10 or 12 times, which does not really matter anyway they hit.

Just like in a jumping, one girls hits more than the others. Perhaps one of the others is trying just as hard but just isn&rsquot as good at it. Who deserves more punishment? This or course is up for debate.

As for my daughter slapping a boy and receiving punshment. I don&rsquot know. It would depend what damage she had down, how many slap she had delivered, if she had other people involved in the beat down with her, etc.

When I make the comment about one punch can cause death or severe damage their is a purpose. If you throw just ONE punch and unintentionally killed someone, please blog this as it has happened in at least two school fights that I am aware of, your fate would be sealed.

You could really make an argument for a teenager that threw a punch, hit just the right spot in the head and severe brain damage or death occured. In a court of law he or she could be charged with attempted murder, manslaughter. etc. Would the punishment be just or unfair do not know. Since this person who threw one punch be put away for many years, I would believe no. However, I am sure that family members or a jury could argue otherwise.

The point I am trying to make with that is, if you lay your hands on someone, you must be ready for the consequences.

These girls meant to hurt her and Electronica – I am sorry but that is plain to me and I do believe to Scott. Remember, also as stated before, we only saw a portion of what happened. The half hour time line has not been disputed. Just the fact about whether or not it was caught on tape. So many more blow could have been thrown.

Wow Amy that was a thorough outline of the damage done to Tori. You should be writer for The Ledger. 🙂 And she had a lot of damage done to her. Poor Tori.

I’ve said all along that the girls did not try to kill or maim Tori. But they wanted to punish her and they did. It’s too bad it wasn’t just April and Tori because April would have won the fight and it would have been over and she probably would have just let Tori go. But the other buttinski’s were there putting there 2 cents in and that’s when things spun out of control.

And I do believe the older girls partly coerced April into beating up Tori. Did April want to beat up Tori? Probably. But she didn’t start hitting Tori until one of the girls said “bleeping hurt her (Tori) April”. And that’s a fact.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Amyv

GregS – Please let us know what site to go to for plea deal information.

If this is true, Karma is a b****. Sorry but this will make me angry. But, first I need to know if it is true.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Electronica

ok its late late late so just very quick here.

i used the word injure to make make things clear but you ppl keep using the word hurt or harm to make sure it all stays confused.

on the vids april didnt hit the way you hit if you wanne injure real bad like break bones break head. she didnt the proofs on the vids and you can write like pages and pages of stuff and its not gonne change it the truth doesnt change it stays the same.

ppl if your daughter had to be beat up either by april for trash talking or by some criminals who wanne punish her for snitching you would see the big diff right away you would say let it be april not those criminals. but you pretend shes like them and theres lots of ppl like you they ignore the truth on the vid and thats why april may end up in real adult prison with grownups who murder and kill and no ones gonne care cause theyll say april tried to break bones break head and stuff.

and its ppl like you who help turn kids real bad cause they see grownups are totally unfair if they dont like you or just decide they have to make an example out of you and like sacrifice you then theyll just say stuff that doesnt make sense and ingore the truth like you do.

and when you dont see a diff between like a normal school beating and criminals breaking bones and breaking heads and you try to punish kids the same like those criminals it makes it look like it doesnt matter if you wanne break bones break heads or not grownups will punish you the same and call you the same so that makes kids more violent cause they start to think its really the same grownups say so.

its the same stupid thing like saying smoking pot is just as bad as doing hard drugs some kids found out pots not so bad so they figure hard drugs arent much worse i mean lots grownups say so.

when you refuse to tell like it is april didnt try to really injure tori on the vid you make it look like breaking bones breaking heads isnt really much worse than just beating up to cause pain but not to really injure. ppl like you make it much harder to keep things from getting real violent cause kids know they gonne get punished by grownups who dont care about the truth and who never give any credit they just assume the worst ans when you assume the worst about some ppl they just start to thibk they reall are real bad at least kids do and start to be that way cause its like everyone expects them to be that way.

but anyway the truth is on the vid and the truth is april didnt hit there the way you hit when you really wanne injure someone she could have hit like that but she didnt and thats that.

Reply
December 6, 2008

gompertz

The six months house arrest was the information I heard a while ago but I don’t know if it is on any site yet. One possible reason it took so long was that there is more than one case before the courts, and there may have been negotiations involving getting the more violent ones to testify against the non-violent one in return for leniency. Plenty more to come, this isn’t over by any means.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Electronica

and greg i never never never said what april did was ok i always said it was wrong thats what i mean by attacking me its totally unfair.

and phil dont try to minimize anything and im not like a stupid lawyer you know i said before i dont think kayla and merc was afraid of britti lawyers wouldnt say what i say so thas unfair too. im just telling the truth.

and greg you we cant read their mind but its ok to say april was trying to injure tori real bad? and you know sometimes you dont need to read minds sometimes you just look what happens. when you have a knife in your hand but you put it away and just punch someone its not fair to say you were trying to kill. and when you hit the way april hits on the vid its not fair to say its the same like criminals trying to break bones break heads.

and greg april told tori to go and said someone get her a hpne so she can go its right there on the vid. you talk reason this and reason that all the time but you dont care about whats true.

and amy i didnt say tori got confused when april hit her i said she didnt get concusion there at all thats obivous from the vids she didnt have any concusion yet.

none of you will admit aprils not the same like criminals trying to break bones break head its ppl like you who make things worse phil says its a fine distinsion well its not if you get beat and its not if you really wanne make things better if grownups dont care about whats fair kids stop caring too at least many of them do and then things get worse no one trusts grownups no one goes to them for help and its all much worse and its ppl like me who have to live in that not you.

Reply
December 6, 2008

Electronica

oh i meant to say i dont try to minimize anything not phil it was phil who said i do.

and it was phil not greg who said we cant read their minds so that comment from me was for phil not greg.

im tired gn.

Reply
December 6, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, there used to be a site, which I can’t find anymore, where they showed April’s initial attack in slow motion. About half those punches were deflected and the ones that landed didn’t look like April was trying to do any real damage. The trouble is, whne I see the second flurry of punches by April, they look a lot harder and though you can’t see the punches land, her arms move more vigorously and with more power. I think that as the attacks continued and they took turns beating her, group psychology took over. I agree with the guests on Nancy Grace that none of these girls would have done any of this on their own. So I don’t think anyone has proven that any of them are evil, including BH. I don’t always agree with you and that’s alright because if two people agree on everything that would be very strange. But I mostly agree when you remind people that we just don’t know enough to form conclusions and some people have their minds made up and have never altered their ideas in the least.

So when I talk about eastern philosophy I think more people should pay attention because if these girls had been interested in eastern philosophy and martial arts none of this would have happened. If you are practicing the martial arts you don’t get swept up in the group psychology because you learn to focus on being independent and control negative emotions. But obviously none of them did that and so they got in trouble. Even if they get the plea deals, remember a lot of people are still very angry at them and some people may try to harm them, so their troubles aren’t over even with the plea deals.

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December 6, 2008

Amyv

Scott- Only have to disagree with you on one thing. I don’t know that April could have won the fight with Victoria. She was not even given a chance for any kind of ‘fair fight’. Also, April must have been afraid of Victoria being able to fight her back. Only cowards or people who don’t know if they can win a fight would need all of that back up. So if it had been even perhaps Victoria would have won. Debateable.

Phil – I often wonder what tape I am watching. But, I have repeated myself so many times it is really becoming tiresome.

April, Brittini, Brittany, Cara, Mercades and Kayla all meant to cause this girl severe harm. She is much more attractive inside and out and they couldn’t stand it. Their hatred for her was more than evident. Out of hand, I really don’t believe they cared.

Well if the plea bargains go through then that would prove a lot of theories wrong on this post. You see this is truely how the juvenille and court systems work period. Whether it be Florida or anywhere else in the U.S. Criminal get off and victims get no justice from that end. So, we can all stop debating over how horrifying it is for juvenilles in Florida. That is unless you are a victim of course.

I am not saying these things out of anger. I am justly simply stating facts. I don’t know if these plea bargains will be the case. As for postponing a trial that will never come to be, what can you say. It has gone way beyond shock value on that one now.

Even if these girls do not spend one day in prison, they still lose. Any of their family members who continue to condone their actions lose as well. Maybe, a temporary victory but short lived. Mercades still has another trial to go through. She was a repeat offender when this case happened. So, this is just one ordeal over for her. As we can see, more excuses have long since been made for the upcoming trial. We will see if that works.

I have little to no doubt some of these girls will be back in trouble again. Then the court systems will have noone to blame but themselves. I feel sorry for the victims to come.

Victoria seems to have moved on to the best of her ability. She can hold her beautiful face high and continue to make positive changes. As for the criminals, they also can go on with their lifes. Try to make changes to make themselves better people. For this will surely haunt them in the future. They will get recognition not for being big and bad. They will get reputations for being bullies who were such cowards they could defend their selfs. Sorry its late.

Once, again I post this without anger but with resignation. Nothing will change if this plea deal go down. Crimes will continue to go up. Bleeding hearts will continue to let criminals get away. Until someday, god forbid, it happens to their loved one. Interesting to see how much defense they will come up with then.

Reply
December 7, 2008

gompertz

Sheriffs and prosecutors are elected officials and that means they are dependent on public approval just like any other politician. Anyone who thinks the original charges served any other purpose except to look good in time for the election is being naive. The elections are over, and the tough law and order judge got the votes. People have short memories and few will find the disparity between the original charges and the final result anything to think about. There will be new cases to hypnotize the public and more tough talk from macho sheriffs to captivate constituencies that mistake the posturing for reality. When this is over, the law-and-order judge and his SAO cronies will get together with their “mortal enemies” on the defense team, play a few rounds of golf, and share some drinks while laughing at the fools who fell for their deceptions yet again.

Reply
December 7, 2008

Phil

To GregS
Can you say where you heard this (the 6 months house arrest)Was it from a news source or someone you know close to the case .

Reply
December 7, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – I agree with a lot of cases that are high profile political posturing is a big problem.
Especially, during election time. Ex: Why did gas prices begin to plummet approx. 2 to 3 months before the presidential elections. I had predicted that a head of time. I also have another prediction. Around March they will sky rocket again. Many people will argue this point ex: price of oil per barrel went down, cold wind blew just in the right direction, lol. Absollutely done to take the American peoples mind off of that issue just in time to concentrate on other less volitial issues. So I will even take your analogy one step further. Republicans and Democrats will sit down, or are as we speak, playing golf and sipping Columbian coffee and smoking Cuban cigars.
Knowing that all of the promises made on both side will probably never be put into motion. Just as it has been done for the last several elections. To political I know but case made for elections and posturing.

The sheriff may have had his political reasons for putting this tape out for the public. Whatever his agenda that would also be hard to prove in a court of law. Especially, since it did serve the purpose of educating some clueless adults of the rise in teenage violent criminal behavior. However, I do think the charges presented were actually commited and appropriate for the crime.

We speak much of the actual beating and its intent. This however was labeld as a misdameanor, not sure if I agree with that one.
The kidnapping was what held the stiffest penalty. Perhaps that should be discussed further since that would have been the charge that could have been punished by life in prison.

Of course anyone with a brain would have known that these girls would not have received that. Even from the start that is just what was stated as the maximum penalty.

Once again sherriff aside this was a felony crime. It actually had to be commited before the sheriff could use it for any purpose. So perhaps that will be evidence we will find in Garcias case against the sheriff.

At one time I was quite certain their was no way sueing the sheriff was going to amount to much. However, if the teenagers in this video get house arrest that is very possible.

Of course this would all disprove the horrible conditions in which teenagers are treated in our society. Especially in the state of Florida. Since this has been a little bit of a heated debate on this blog.

So here I go with a scenario. The teenagers get 6 months house arrest. In other words a slap on the wrist. They serve their time and back on the streets they go. If they will offend again, well that is anyones guess. With this type of punishment not much of a deterent their for them or any teenager that has followed this case.

The sheriff goes to court, Garcia wins and receives a large sum of money. A crime was commited and family members of the criminals reap the benefits. Another, excellent example for criminals.

So, this is the kind of criminal justice system I have seen for many years. Criminals get off. Victims receive no justice. People can sue over anything and win. To tough on teenager felons. Well we can all be the judge on that.

Let me state again I have never condoned or agreed with death threats, life in prison, 25 years in prison, etc. A slap on the wrist no to that to.

I truely wish that Victorias family would take this to civil court. If justice is not served in criminal perhaps it will be in civil court. Sometimes, to make some people take actions seriously, you have to hit them in the pocket book.

Reply
December 7, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz ” When this is over, the law-and-order judge and his SAO cronies will get together with their &ldquomortal enemies&rdquo on the defense team, play a few rounds of golf, and share some drinks while laughing at the fools who fell for their deceptions yet again.”

Contraty to popular opionion, I have long since debated this issue with people over the Presidential elections. So, I could not agree with you more. This type of behavior starts at the highest of offices and trickles its way down. So the level of niavety in our society is truely endless.

However, this does not deter my convictions on the seriousness of the crime commited. I can not blame the sheriff for that. No matter what his personal gain. Also, is it not the prosecutor that agree to plea deals? Does the victim have any rights when this deals are offered? More changes that I feel should be instituted in our justice system or lack their of.

Reply
December 7, 2008

Phil

Amy V if that’s all these girls get then it is a travesty . open season on teen violence . Go ahead and post it on the net you will get famous and the worst that can happen is you get grounded for a lousey 6 months . Go ahead and beat and humilate who use chose . Better yet use my place no prob I can just plead I didn,t know . .Every beat down involving teens in the lovly state of flordia will now look at this as the default sentence because short of murder it couldn’t get much worse and if there is no tape perhaps nothing . Can you inagine if there was no video . Victoria would have been charged with stealing Mecades 4 dollars . There is no protection for the victem . If again this is trre than i am totally disgusted and I believe its puts some of these gorls in harms way for vigle -anti justice ,. The courts can blame themselves for that as well

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December 7, 2008

Scott

Oh Amy I am so with you when the bleeding heart judges constantly let criminals off. It turns out when they commit violent acts again it’s never against the bleeding hearts loved ones. But this is the court trend in America and you’ve been all over victim’s rights in this case.

Amy, as for April and Tori I think April is tough and a fighter but I don’t think Tori is. She’s pretty slight of might girl and why would she ever want to put her very pretty face on the line in a fist fight? It doesn’t add up.

Electronica, I personally think April was caught between a rock and a hard place. She may have wanted to give Tori an attitude adjustment but she had to beat up Tori enough to please the older girls encouraging her to hurt Tori and yet not beat her up so much that she killed or maimed Tori. April had to straddle that fine line with the girls and Tori.

Gomp, the video of April hitting Tori after Brittini sucker punched Tori getting up from the couch shows April slapping Tori hard around the shoulders and on the back. It looked to me like Cooper was trying to avoid Tori’s head. But April did make a big mistake by stopping Tori from getting to the front door to smack her around some more. Then Brittini was by the door after that and there was no escape for Tori.

Reply
December 7, 2008

Phil

Scott what proof do you have that”I personally think April was caught between a rock and a hard place. She may have wanted to give Tori an attitude adjustment but she had to beat up Tori enough to please the older girls encouraging her to hurt Tori and yet not beat her up so much that she killed or maimed Tori. April had to straddle that fine line with the girls and Tori.She seemed to me egar and willing to do what she did . Mayby at first she might have been egged a little on but the second part there is absoultly no eveidence besides the fact that she dosn,t hit as hard as Brit H..Besides that I don’t understand how you come to that conclusion . Reading the statments that are available and watching the tape there is no hint that aprils intent was any other then what she did which is strike Victoria over and over when no one ellse was .

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December 7, 2008

Scott

Amy, how can these 5 kids plea down assault, felony kidnapping and tampering with a witness charges to 6 months house arrest? It doesn’t make sense.

By the way you’re quip about the prosecutors and the defense hanging out and drinking together and playing golf together after the trial or after the plea deals was very funny. Sad but funny. It’s all just a game to then and then they move on to the next case not giving a damn about the victim. What has happened to Tori in this case is a disgrace. And I don’t believe her family has the desire to file civil suits against the girls that beat Tori so badly and who according to Talisa Lindsay emotionally raped Tori.

And I agree with you Amy about why the price of gas came down so dramatically all of a sudden and that it will go way up in the spring time if 2009. Gee I wonder why. )

Reply
December 7, 2008

Scott

Phil, I have no proof I just go by my gut instincts which tend to be very good. But I’ll never go away from the crimes committed against Tori for whatever reasons were over the top and the girls should have to pay the legal and civil prices for that.

Reply
December 7, 2008

GregS

Amyv, Phil, the source is from the mother of one of the suspects in the case. The information is probably better than anything the media would have. And you are right to be very angry, I’m not happy about that either.

It’s very likely that the girls will accept the plea deal, receive house arrest/slap on the wrist, and then go on TV giving interviews to Dr. Phil, Oprah, and others. I don’t agree with the situation and I do think it’s going to create a lot of bad karma for the girls, but thats probably why the courts offfered them the plea deal. I’d say ultimately the people who think like Electronica won out over the people who think like Amyv, but most of the youth think more like Amyv than Electronica. Very few young people are going to want to be friends with these girls or date them after seeing that video. I don’t know, maybe Electronica wouldn’t mind being friends with April Cooper and Brittini Harcastle.

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December 7, 2008

GregS

Scott the reason they are given house arrest is because thousands of people like Electronica felt sympathy for them and probably pressured the prosecutors and the judge among others to give them house arrest. They probably said prison time would be too cruel, then once prison time was ruled out they probably said juvie was too cruel, and that April and Britini Hardcastle weren’t really trying to hurt Victoria. Also Victoria probably was pressured to ask them not to put them in jail.

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December 7, 2008

Amyv

I think we can all agree that we will not agree on the amount of damage these girls intended to inflict on this victim. I am not a mind reader so I truely can not say.

I also have no formal training in the art of self defense. I would assume none of these girls have either. So, being overcome with hatred and anger towards someone would make me doubt the ability of these girls to hold back. I saw a whole lot of punches being thrown. Did April have the self control to hold back the amount of harm she intended to inflict. I can’t see it. Did she measure the punches just enough to inflict pain but no real harm, didn’t see that either. I would think that would take many years of martial arts training as Gomp. as advocated to learn that type of self control.

Or was it just that April is not as good a fighter as she thinks she is. Punches missing their mark does not imply intent to not harm it simply means you missed your target. If you didn’t see that on the bed, I truely don’t know how you could have missed that direct ‘closed fist’ by the couch.

Since, we have not seen the types of blows Kayla and Mayes delivered can not judge what their intent was. However, isn’t hitting someone no matter how hard and how many times just as bad an act as the other two? That is also up for debate.

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December 7, 2008

GregS

Phil what it means for teens is that if you don’t want to end up like Victoria, protect yourself. Thats the lesson of this story.

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December 7, 2008

GregS

Amyv, send your daughter to study the martial arts. Kickboxing is easy to start with and will make her physically very dangerous. Then from there you can see if she wants to study anything else. Also buy her some pepper spray.

It’s no longer acceptable for female teens to be unarmed and defenseless. It’s time that teenagers learn that nobody can protect them from being abused but themselves.

Reply
December 7, 2008

gompertz

Amy, absolutely right about the politicians. I really hope the plea deal business doesn’t come to pass but it sure looks like the fix was in from day one. The old boys network is a reality, defense lawyers and prosecutors attended the same law schools, and go to the same social functions and their trophy wives all belong to the same clubs and their kids go to the same exclusive schools. They put on a good show in the courtroom but that’s about as real as professional wrestling. BTW you know AC’s lawyer used to be a prosecutor, right?
To us who follow the case the discrepancy between the original tough charges and the way they caved in and offered deals makes the Sheriff and SAO look silly, and you would think they would have some explaining to do. But I’m afraid the majority of people around the country have moved on and just don’t care.

I agree with what Scott said on the blog that people who know Victoria personally should come out and offer more info. Also, the people who know her personally need to persuade her not to give up the fight and keep doing interviews, whatever the prosecution does. And believe me when I say, though I don’t know Victoria personally, be assured that no one should try to make good the threats they made to her. I personally know some tough women up here who are skilled in all kinds of fighting methods who would love to see them try.

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December 7, 2008

Phil

The law is supposed to protect those that cannot and to set an example to those that cross it . That sort of deal is a sad end to a sad storey ..
To scott still dont agree about April but thanks for answering me .

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

greg i dont sympatize with them i dont like what they did dont make it look like i do its totally unfair again.

and i said long ago 4 months jail for brittini and 3 months prison juvie for april and lots of home arrest only after that. so dont make it look like i said only home arrest i didnt its again totally unfair.

and greg theres everyone said adult prison for them all even april and kayla and like hardly anyone ever agreed with me so how come now you say thousands thats a joke its like i bet thousands called the persecution and said years in prison for all.

and like i said grownups dont get prison for misdemener beatings so why should april and kayla?

but ppl dont like the truth so they just ignore it.

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

Greg is absolutely right about sending your kids to take martial arts lessons. Don’t let the lessons learned in this case be wasted, don’t just blog about it, do something. When Phil says my ideas are impractical, well, I partially agree, I tend to be utopian sometimes. But there is nothing impractical about martial arts. The problem is, when we urge people to send their kids to take lessons, I know how expensive that can be. If the incoming administration is serious about universal health care they need to include universal martial arts training in the package. Think about how much martial arts would improve the overall health of the country, resulting in far lower expenditure on things like surgery and medicine. So the program would pay for itself.

Of course there is a legitimate concern that if everyone took martial arts, the bullies would benefit also. But many of these bullies would be cured of their bullying ways and those that are not cured but use their training iin the wrong way would be seriously outnumbered.
The bullies would be opposed by organized communities of fighters who would stop them, and the victimization of the weak would be over.
Under the current system too many people are excluded because of lack of money, and those who can afford to take lessons may well have acquired the funds to do so through criminal activity. So criminals have the advantage when it comes to access to training. Also in prison they avail themselves of the gym at taxpayer expense and come out more physically strong and dangerous. So if my ideas are impractical maybe someone has a better way to fix the problem of bullying and violent crime and I want to hear it.

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

amy when you fight is doesnt mean you wanne kill or like break bones. and like when one side starts winning she better keep her cool cause otherwise the other girl will end up in hospital its hard to defend once you start losing.

and amy april knows how to fight she fought before its obvious. and its obvious she didnt do even like a tenth of the harm she could have done not on the vid at least. you really dont understand nothing if you cant see just how much real damage april could have done when tori was on the bed. so if you dont understand dont judge.

and you say hitting someone is like always as bad??? so when you spank a little kid your as bad as britti and you both as bad as some gang who broke some boys head and legs and back cause he snithed? this just doesnt make any sense.

kids dont go to grownups with problems cause they dont understand and dont try to understand dont try to listen but judge anyway. thats one reason lots of bullying and fights go on kids dont trust grownups they can make things worse.

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

and if its true all of them gonne get the same punishment then thats stupid. i agree they should get punished more than just for what each did but i dont agree they all should get punished exactly the same.

so if its true it just shows grownups dont really care about whats right when they judge kids they just do whatever is best for them.

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December 7, 2008

Phil

I wouldn’t trust growns ups either if you report a crime like Victoria did and this is what happens . she should have gotten a bunch of her friends together and taken care of it herself because the adults she trusted let her down . Those 6 who did all of the damage should trust adults beacause thy took care of the villians .

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December 7, 2008

Amyv

SCOTTS POST
“Amy, April is tough and a fighter but I don&rsquot think Tori is. She&rsquos pretty slight of might girl and why would she ever want to put her very pretty face on the line in a fist fight? It doesn&rsquot add up.” I agree with your assessment of Victoria. Very beautiful girl I would say very close to model material. I believe this was a lot of the true motive behind the crimes. Jealousy.

I just don’t want to give in to what is written on other post (which I have not gone to for months} that Victoria was a coward for not hitting back. That should have been my statement. Although, if these teenagers do read posts, I do not want to give them any encouragement as to how tough they came off on this video. Or think Victoria was weak. I want them to see themselves for the cowards that they are.

I have to give credit to Gomp. for the comment about officials and sipping tea. I just kicked it all the way up to the top. As for gas prices. Boy do I wish I could stock pile some without blowing up my house.lol. Down to $1.87 a gallon here. Nice break for the time being.

Wish I had more faith in government. I am definitely not Anti-American just anti-corruption in our government across the board. The behavior of many years, has put our country into the mess it is now. Although, some people have definitely lived above their means, still have sympathy for all of their losses.

Brace yourself everyone. Our govenment has officially declared us in a state of recession. I know this might come as a shock to many of you. But, I read it in the paper yesterday and wandered just where the heck have they been for the last 5 years if not longer. No way mean to make light of this. Many people are suffering and have been for years. Just could not believe that any one could not give us enough credit to have realized this on our own a long time ago. Wow. Talk about arrogance.

Gregs – I would say that if the information about these plea deals came from one of these mothers, sadly it would be true. However, do not know why if that is the case they have not plead out yet.

The quicker they did that, the quicker they could reap the benefits of their actions. You hit it right on the head Dr. Phil, Oprah, book publishing, etc. Since it has been amazingly quiet from certain mothers, I would assume this is probably correct.
Don’t know these mothers but, some interviews and comments from a couple of them would lead me to believe they will be having tea parties of their own about now. Oh well. This is why I would truly hope that this would be brought to civil court. I have made no bones about any one of these girls or their families profitting from this violent act. Civil court would take care of that.

To everyone in general – I have looked back over our recent posts and realized we have been acting like a bunch of referres at a boxing match. Juding the different types of punches, who meant to inflict more harm, who held back, open fist or closed first etc.

Wow, can you imagine if we were the jury. So many different opinions and personal beliefs come in to play. I would say that we would probably be a hung jury but, I will give all of us more credit then that. Even when it is taped you can’ t come to the same conclusions. I can’t imagine what would go on behind closed doors.

We all agree on the most fundamental issues. We are not out for blood just for justice and deterence of future behaviors. The proper punishment is much harder to apply. I myself would have to answer honestly and say I could not serve. One look at that tape is all I need to stir up the immense anger in me. So at least I would be honest enough to try to give them a fair trial. I really wish this case would go to trail. Plea deal should be off the table by now.

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

I agree with Scott that Victoria just doesn’t look like a fighter. She just doesn’t have that kind of physique and her face is not the face of a fighter. I invite anyone to look at the opening scene where she is confronted by April. April is poised to strike and Victoria stands there like someone who is having a conversation. There is no indication from her “body language” that she is prepared for any physical confrontation.

Violent people tend to think everyone is as ready for violence as they are, and peaceful people think everyone is peaceful. We know better, but we tend to project our own behavior on others and expect them to act like we do. I thin Victoria wanted to carryon a purely verbal argument and certainly did not anticipate she was in danger, as she would have if she thought in terms of violence. But peaceful people don’t want to think in those terms and attribute the same peaceful motives to others, thinking they just want to talk. And they don’t change their minds until they get hit in the head.

So I don’t believe the allegations about Victoria beating people up, and I know sometimes appearances can deceive, but the thought of Victoria being an aggressor would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

Amy’s comment is so perfectly right, we have been acting like referees at a boxing match.

Also the politicians and their posturing, doing anything for votes even if they know it is wrong. Look at how eager politicians are to pass rent control laws. Anyone who takes economics 101 knows these laws not only don’t work but lead to homelessness and eventually the prices go up by the simple working if supply and demand. But the laws are popular with voters and there are many more tenants than landlords, and the short run effect of these laws helps tenants. By the time the long run effects manifest themselves, the politicians have gone their merry way and made more mischief elsewhere, to the delight of short-sighted constituents.

Anyone who wants to know more about this type of thing, I won’t bore people with my thoughts but just refer you to Thomas Sowell, he is there on google search. There are samples of some of his works on economics and society and anyone who is interested can try his 600 page Basic Economics.
I think a little knowledge of economics is important for understanding how society fell apart the way it did, and the economic theories of 70 years ago also helped produce the kind of amoral society where criminals get free and victims suffer. But that is for everyone to decide for themselves, if that is a worthwhile line of inquiry or not.

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December 7, 2008

Scott

Amy, I agree with you that Tori is model attractive and has her own unique look at the same time. I believe that was the crux of the jealousy aimed at Tori by the girls. There is no doubt that jealousy was a factor in the girls frustration with Tori as well as alleged trash talking from Tori.

And with Tori about to graduate high school a year early that might have been the last time those girls could corner Tori without any backup for Tori. Their plan worked. But it backfired too. Thankfully.

On a side note I just don’t see how tiny 15 year old Kayla who hit Tori a couple times can get the same sentence as powerful 17 year old Hardcastle who hit Tori well more than 50 times, kept her from leaving the house and was absolutely cruel to Tori. It doesn’t add up.Gomp, Tori was standing there with her arms folded and in a defensless position when April punched her in the face. There is no way Tori was going to fight April with the other girls there. Tori did the right thing by not fighting. If she did fight back the girls would have seen that as a great disrespect with all of them there and who knows what they could have done with her.

As for Electroinca she’s entitled to her opinions like everyone else here and makes many fine points such as Hardcastle going to adult jail and Cooper to juvenile jail. We should be able to disagree here and stil be on good terms with each other.

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

True, Scott, I agree with everything you said. Victoria is just not a fighter, whatever other problems she may have an inclination to violence is not one of them.
As for the reason the plea deals took so long, it may be because of the other case Mercades is involved in. Could be they are negotiating on terms to make the other girls testify on the second case. So here is a possible scenario. April and Brittani and the other two getting easy deals in return for testifying in the other case against Mercades. The violent ones get off while the least violent is punished, that is often how it works when lawyers start negotiating. While some people don’t like Mercades’ mother, I wonder how many think such an outcome would be fair.

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December 7, 2008

Phil

I woluld like to apoligize for my last post where i said that Victoria should of got some of her friends and taken care of it . I was to angry and that type of thinking is what started this mess . The only thing that makes sense is that both Victoria and her step mom said they did not want jail time so mayby they are signing off on it . Me i am still pissed
if it is true but I truley believe in rules of law,compassion and justice and the previous post was lacking in all 3 .

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December 7, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Since I have never waivered from my intuitions about this mother please let me respond.

I would like to look at this logically. The accusations from the ex boyfriend came before the criminal act against Victoria. It is documented he got a restraining order. It is documented he reached out to school officials for help against Mercades threats and bulleying.
It is documented at this time Mercades and the most violent offender Brittini were so thick, Brittini delivered a Valentine’s present to the ex boyfriend. Although, their was a restraining order in place.

Logically, in our society, a teenage boy would avoid these actions at all cost in order to keep from losing respect. Much more so than a girl. So, just by reasoning in this manner. What would this boy have to gain by lying about his fear of a girl? Embarassment, humiliation, bullying by other boys for being a sissy. Does not add up. Yes, This did come before the second offense.

Subsequently, the next violent, bulleying case occurs. Unfortunately for the victim these threats were carried through. In the thick of things a key player once again B.H. Coincidence, find it hard to believe. Every indication that B.H. and Mercades had been good friends during both the accusations of the first teenager and the actual assault of the second. Therefore, common sense here, these two were friends. Mercades was not scared of her or why would she be hanging around her. Also, state during one of the drive by incidences both Mercades and B.H. were in the car together. These two the most Violent B.H. and debateably the most innocent in this scenario even though it happened at her house.
Victoria was wrong to trust Mercades.

After the beating of Victoria, Kayla and Mercades were give all of the credit for handing over the tape to the police. This is not true. Mercades grandmother handed it over with the insistance of Victorias stepmother who was being meet with resistance from the girls to give her the tape. They knew they were caught. Got together and banned together against April, B.H. and Mayes. Explaining they were afraid of B.H. and would not go along with the other girls lies.

Once again. logically why would you be hanging around a person and invite them over your house when you are so afraid of them. Once again logicaly another friend turned on by Mercades to keep herself out of trouble. I don’ t think we have to go over the tape again and see what an active participant Kayla was. If we want to talk about posturing study Kayla between Victoria and B.H. Absolutely no fear displayed. Please explain that to me.

Why would they let all of these girls go to just go after the one? It makes no sense. Yes, Mercades may well get off on house arrest for this trial. But, it is not anyone elses fault but her own that for the next case she will already have strikes against her for following through with threats to Victoria.

So with all of this put together it would be harder to convince a jury or prosecutory that this girl has some severe anger management problems. Whether she chooses to carry them out on her own or requires others to do the work for her. The most nonviolent. Not sure about that one at all.

If if is implicated that this is in retaliation to Garcias law suit against the sheriff lets go through those facts. First came the boy. Then came the crimes commited on Victoria. So saying the next trial could be a set up because of the law suitt the time lines don’t match up.

Phil – As much as I hate to admit it maybe your way is the only way. If the adults don’t protect the teenagers, they should feel free to take matters into their own hands.

As many have stated their are questions to the intent of these girls actions, how much to harm,
adults can not be trusted, Victoria was threatening to beat them up, etc.

So in this line of thinking they are very right. The adults have not given the victim justice. The victims did not just bully her but beat her severely.

So, she has ever right to put each one of them one at a time in this same exact situation. She can sit back and not partcipate. But, she should be considered the most non violent of the bunch. Maybe these girls will just happen to come to a house they believe is one of their friends and then be blind sided by an attack.

Victoria should be given maybe 3 months of house arrest and no more. No proof it was planned although it sure would be common sense. Prove it. Did not mean harm to the girls her friends just didn’t like the way the other girls had ‘trash talked and beat her’. Prove it. Broken tooth, sling for extreme discomfort, concussion, kidnapping. But, she should feel free to sit back and do nothing. That is not a crime right. She might have just been hanging around the wrong group of friends.

I know we all agree these girls were wrong. We all agree they should be punished. Many comments about not trusting adults, sheriffs, judges, etc. If you disagree with me please look back at your own blogs.

So, I finallly agree. Do not trust adults. Equip yourself with self defense mechanisms. Since, it has been stated some of Victorias actions after the trial have been out of fear these girls still pose a threat to her. So, treat them as one get herself armed with pepper spray. Get girls bigger than these and let the teenagers take care of themselves.

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December 7, 2008

christina garcia

First, thank you to the person who emailed me to let me know about this horrible attack that Amy has yet to continue. Next Amy…As everyone knows on here I am no longer a poster on this blog, the only thing that was said or asked is would this be fair, why must you write all these ugly things about my kid and I? All of your blahs have been thrown out the window over and over on here and through the evidence. Why couldn’t you simply have replied yes you think it would be fair just because of the ex case? ( BTW, you would never be allowed on a jury with your mentality) I think what he was trying to ask is how could the ones that did the hitting get offf easier than a person who did not hit anyone and warned her not to go inside. I don’t think he asked you to write a book about how and why you hate Mercades and I. And please don’t insult me with your ” Oh, I don’t hate you or your daughter” because its BS and we all know that. Woman up!

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December 7, 2008

Scott

At this point when it looks like the girls will get slaps on the wrists I would rather Electronica was dishing out the sentences for the girls instead of the prosecution who seems to be bailing out on Tori and Sheriff Judd. Atleast Electronica wants Hardcastle to go to adult prison for a couple years and Cooper to go to juvenile detention for 6 months. The way things are going Brittini and April probably won’t even get that.

I just hope some serious probabtion is attached to whatever sentences the girls get. I don’t want to have any wiggle room for violent behaviour in the future.

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December 7, 2008

christina garcia

You talking so ugly about a person that is no longer here shows what type of woman you are. I’ll bet your poor children have to over hear you gospping on the phone to all your friends about your other friends. You are a pathetic excuse for a woman. Now, I am leaving again, I don’t mind anyone on here speaking about the topic at hand and about us in this form, but have respect for people that are not here to defend thierselves…Thank you )

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December 7, 2008

GregS

Brittni Hardcastle is 18 not 17. This is why we are upset about her receiving just 6 months. She’s a child.

abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=6403812&amppage=1

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December 7, 2008

Phil

To Christina .
Nice to know the jackel is showing her spots you must be sad this may be over soon the only thing you will be remembered for is what your daughter did . I’m sure if you think long and hard you can find another way to make a buck off this . what shows do you and your daughter have lined up, I have found your participation in this case disgusting since your first interview nice to know you haven’t disapointed me in your latest barage . Read all the blogs . what Amy has said about you 2 has been flattering compared what most of society thinks . You haven’t enough time to to chase down and comment to eveyonne who has distain for you 2 there are way to many . . You came on this blog of your on will . You added your piece of poison . I am not buying it and agree with amy . This is about as nice of an address as i can write to you I know you don’t care but You still probally like for me to buy your book or whatever post Victoria career you might have in mind .
So much for the compassion i was just sprouting about but I feel better now .

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

Phil, we know that compassion is difficult to sustain in any case but talking about jackals showing their spots I think we all do that sometimes because the animal nature is there in spite of our attempts to suppress it as you just showed and I have too sometimes. At this point all I want to do is ask you a question. What if Brittani Hardcastle’s mother posted here, or April Cooper’s mother? What would you like to say to them?

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December 7, 2008

Phil

to gomp
Fair question and another good anolagy .I really don/t know especiaaly today . I am not in the right frame of mind to be fair and rational . First off the other 2 mothers stayed silent . I really have read most of Christina’s statements ,watched her interviews and listened to her on radio.and i have to say I don’t have alot of respect for her . If the other 2 mothers were trying to minimize thier daughter role and involvement at the same time giving those little jabs and innuendos about Victoria then I woulld probally react the same eventually. I will ask you this why would she even be on any blog where what we say has no effect on the judgement of the courts . She has made herself a lighting road scince the beginning . All it has done is brought more scorn on her family .I do not take back what i said in my earlier post . I agree with amy and answered her scorn with my own .

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December 7, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
I did not answer your second question . There is not much I would want to ask the parents .I do not blame any of the parents for the actions of thier daughters .not even Christina .I have commented in earlier past that i do not think these girls are pure evil beyond repair and the strain on thier families must be enormus . I have said before this blog is about stating opinions and then having the tested .I hope i will think the same even if the bad deal becomes a reality . I would say now
to these parents that I hope everyone of these girls are truly sorrry for what they did to victoria and after thier ridiculos sentence is finished that they work hard to undo the damage they have done forgive themselves where possible and as the good book says do unto others as you would have them do onto you . Then thier families will heal and mayby in the long run Victoria will as well .
Thanks again for the nicley worded question Even the part about me showing my own spots .

Reply
December 7, 2008

Phil

Greg S
Went to the link on your latest post
May be dumb but did not understand what the link was for in relation to this case

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

Phil wrote “may be dumb but did not understand what the link was for in relation to this case.”

Me neither. : (

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

scott no!!! i didnt say tears in prison for britti i said only 4 months in jail and home arrest after that.

and not 6 months in a juvie for april only 3 months to scare her and home arrest after that.

and greg britti wasnt 18 when they beat tori. shes 18 now so jails ok but as much as if she were 18 when they beat her theres a diff.

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

i mean not as much as if he was 18 when it hapened. like if you turn 18 you should be more responsible they let you vote and stuff.

oh and if brittis going to college i would let her finish i think its important maybe she could do the jail in summer and on weekends. educations important they shouldnt take that away from her its better for everyone if shes in college.

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December 7, 2008

Electronica

and amy i think its funny how when you dont like how things turn out its ok with you if kids beat up kids. thats what ive been saying all along grownups dont really mind when kids get beat up they mind only when they dont approve. so thats why thry put kids in prison with grownups who murder and rape and thats why they beat up kids in boot camps and thats why they say its ok to beat up kids who do something wrong.

and you know lots of grownups say if you trash talk or you threten someone you should gt beat up and they smack kids for what they say too all the time. its just when kids do it to another kid and its on tv grownups say oh its always wrong.

and you say victim this and victim that but you dont really care about toris opinions do you only when she says what you wanne hear.

shes the one who got beat up and shes the one who got arrested a lot and been judged and stuff so mayne she knows a lot more about whats fair for kids than you do and you should let her speak up on her own before you say its so wrong if the girls dont go to prison.

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December 7, 2008

gompertz

Phil thank you for the thoughtful answer, and I would most likely ask the same kinds of questioned if any one of the families of the assailants would appear here. As for why would Christina appear on a blog like this and risk the consequences. When I first saw Christina on TV I think it was on Greta, she made a negative impression on many people. After the interview, someone said “Gee, she could have been a lot nicer” and I agree. People have called her, among other things, a manipulator. So I wonder why would a manipulator act in a way that is sure to turn people against her. Manipulators and con artists tend to be very pleasant and nice, or else they won’t succeed. So here is another of my infamous analogies: When I am approached by a person on the street asking for a handout, I look at what kind of image they present. If the person comes across as a con artist I don’t give them anything. If you are that smooth and sophisticated in your begging, you can be that smooth and sophisticated in a job interview and you don’t need my small change because you should have no trouble getting a job. The people I help out are the ones who aren’t pleasant, because they are the ones who are really in need. Someone who has gone through a lot of hardship may be so affected by their experience of hard knocks that they have lost the ability to be pleasant. So they are the ones who are in need. I realize most people would do just the reverse. Most would favor the smooth, pleasant beggar over the nasty and unpleasant one, because the pleasant beggar seems to be giving them respect and people want respect and reward that kind of deferential behavior. I would rather look beyond the surface appearance and see the real need, even if the needy beggar insults me. So anyway that is an analogy and not meant to reflect on anyone here. Don’t know if it helps to explain my thought processes here. As for Christina I think that whatever else you can say she shows a lot of courage coming here. I don’t question her motives and I don’t pretend to read her mind, and really, I am not brainwashed by anyone.

As you say, everyone can speak their mind and must be ready to take the consequences. Still, remember that most of us who blog here do so under the cover of anonymity, and Christina does not have that advantage because we have seen her on TV and there is a lot of information out there that can be used to form a judgment. I know you have thought about these things and you know the families of the defendants, all of them, are suffering. We cannot balance that against the suffering of Victoria and her family, they are not comparable. But each is unique and I don’t think all our anger helps make the victim’s pain any less. I have said that if the girls are remorseful they should be shown consideration. I have also said that, to take the other extreme, if they try to attack Victoria again, some women with kung fu skills might be on the next plane to Florida and settle things. But that is what is so agonizing, we just don’t know. I just don’t like to inflict more pain on people who are suffering, even if they don’t extend the same courtesy to me. And Christina has been courteous to me and would show you the same respect if you wanted that.

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December 7, 2008

Phil

To Gomp .
when i have read Christina’s responses there is most times an underliying malice in her blogs .From the Jake the snake to seemingly able to bring a negative as far as Victoria goes but still saying she supports victoria . with her I just find it difficult to swallow .I don’t understand her motives but the trying to make money off of this is the one thing that really gets to me. I tend to let go of my emotions from time to time and have to eat crow time to time as a result . I was wrong to suggest that Victoria get friends and settle this as please Amy reconsider agreeing me on this point . This is how people really get hurt .I will stand by my Chritina rant because it did come from what i truley feel about her role in this . I will also accept the critisim without responding from anyone who thought i was overly mean or overly disrespectful.

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December 7, 2008

Scott

No Electonica! I can understand your empathy towards April because she was only 14 when she assaulted and imprisoned Tori. And April was used by the older girls to hurt Tori for them. But I can’t understand you wanting Hardcastle to do only 4 months in the slammer after she viciously assaulted, imprisoned and made Tori leave in the car. Those are 3 very serious crimes the then grown up 17 year old Hardcastle committed against Tori and 4 months in jail for Brittini will not suffice. Not at all. I’m think 2 years in jail for Brittini as well as some major probation for her. And then you add in the torture Brittini willfully put Tori through when Tori was begging her for mercy and she kept hitting Tori time after time. It was ridiculous and malicious and that cannot be denied. What Hardcastle did to Tori is worth alot more than 4 months in jail and 6 months of house arrest. And I bet Brittini did 90% of the physical damage to Tori as well. She really punished her and made her suffer so much physically and emotionally. The legal system needs to send a message to Brittini that her kind of violent and hatefull behaviour will not be tolerated.

And wasn’t Briittini one of the neighborhood “toughies” the lady who helped Tori make her 911 call said she was? And didn’t Brittini try to run that lady’s daughter off the road? I think Hardcastle needs to be sent a strong message by the law. Anything less than 2 years in jail and probation for several years will be a sweet deal for Brittini. She would get out of jail at 20 years of age and still be plenty young enough to have a future.

None of these girls are sorry nor are there familes and that’s why no one has apologized yet. Well maybe other than Christina Garcia and her mother.

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December 7, 2008

GregS

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid...

Hardcastle is good at convincing people she’s a nice girl and not a bully. She had her neighborhood thoroughly fooled.

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December 7, 2008

Amyv

Phil – We have come to the same conclussions about certain matters. I will not back down to them and I will not respond to any criticism thrown at me. As you can see that does nothing but get you attacked by the same people who claim to be above this type of behavior. It really does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who let this person know what was being said on this blog to someone who said she would never post here again.

Yes, I agree we were both emotional about blogging let teenagers take care of matters themselves. But, once again look over the blogs. People have consistently reinforced their beliefs to teenagers that the sheriff in this case was corrupt from the beginning. That authority figures were corrupt. So, what I see lacking is who does everyone think these teenagers should turn to?

I simply starting agreeing with what I did not feel was right from the very beginning. Teenagers should learn how to defend themselves. If they can not trust adults and corruption is so high, who do they turn to? Maybe that is truely all they have left.

However, the same people who will advocate distrust for authority will also jump down our throats for coming up with an alternative for as GregS would say looking out for yourself. Don’t agree with violence, someone jumps. Don’t agree with punishment, someone jumps. Don’t agree with leniancy, someone jumps. No way to win no matter what you say.

I used to let this womans blogs anger me but not anymore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about that. How easily you willl get jumped as well as myself I find rather amusing and somewhat hypocritical. You can be called every name in the book by her and she is defended, you say something back, even if she called you the same thing, get ready for the jump.

At this time mute point. If their are really plea bargains out that are for six months well, take from that what you wish. As for the assumption, once again to single out one girl, I just have to try to use some bit of common sense here. What could these girls offer in the second case that would help out the prosecution? I would think if the same group was some how informed on both incidences, that would harm instead of hurt.

I believe my point, perhaps poorly made, was besides the beating their are other aspects to this case. We can also debate which one of these issues to death. Electronica speaks alot about physical violence and what is worse than the other. I think emotional damage is just as bad, if not worse. That was my point on who should be judged harshly and who should not.
Sticking up for the beating by B.H. and A.C. no way. Just not downplaying the kidnapping and tampering with a witness charges. Certainly we can agree some of the non-violent people in this case were heavily involved in that.

Still will not back down on my convictions. Have not done so this far. Will not even after this case is over. If that ever happens. If that makes me a jackal so be it. I don’t think I have done any name calling in a long time. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Although, this still gets thrown at me. Oh well. Not intended for you Phil sorry. I was called on it. Realized I was stooping to a lower level than I consider myself. So will not be pulled into that type of behavior.

Posted by GregS
“It&rsquos time that teenagers learn that nobody can protect them from being abused but themselves.”
As much as I would have disagreed with this statement a month ago, I am starting to believe this may be the only way. I just did not want to extend to teenager against teenager. Perverts against children and teenagers. Now, I believe it might be the only answer to these type of situations. I don’t know anymore. They surely will not get the justice from adults. But, the problem is this does promote further violence. This also is a no win situation but, when backed into a corner what are they to do?

I would also like to see B.H. or A.C. mothers blog on here. I would truely like to see if the same consideration would be extended to them. As far worse has been said about these two than anything I have ever stated. Although, it seems they have their hands full with matters at home. Not much time to go through blogs on the internet.

This sounds like an angry post. Believe it or not it truely isn’t. Just making points.

Reply
December 7, 2008

gompertz

To Amy-
When you wrote “It really does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who let this person know what was being said on this blog…” I wonder who the rocket scientist would point the finger at. All I know is, it was not I. I am not sitting at my computer all day plotting intrigues or jumping people if that is what you think. As for my exchange of views with Phil, do you see it as being unfair to use the same word he used for someone else? If the mother of a defendant can be called names, then why can’t everyone be called names, including me? I am not being hostile, I am not angry,just playing by the rules, which if I am not mistaken do apply to everyone. When you posted your lengthy analysis this afternoon, I did not respond, I thought you raised fair points that I would have to think about for a while.

I thought especially about what you said about how difficult it would be for a young man to ask for protection from a girl, that would make him lose respect with the other guys. Good point, and I have no counter argument.

I do wonder whether any of us chooses our friends out of logical considerations. Not to get into that issue too much, but I think most of human behavior is governed by emotion not logic including our choice of friends. We ought to be more guided by reason, but in fact few people are. Whatever the connection was between BH and Mercades I doubt whether logic entered into it. Maybe we will learn more when more information is made public.

The other thing I want to mention, it is very important, whether children and teenagers can trust authority or do they fend for themselves. You know my position on that, I have written about it here and I agree with Greg that we must all be more self-reliant and practice martial arts. Young people should be able to respect authority but not be blind and naive. Christ said be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, sorry if I don’t quote exactly. That is the advise I would have to give to young people.

As I posted earlier I think President Obama’s universal health care plan should include a provision making martial arts instruction available to everyone. By practicing martial arts people’s health would improve throughout the nation and the money saved on surgery and medicine and doctor’s visits would make the plan pay for itself. And while bullies would also get instruction they would be so outnumbered by the rest of the people they would be neutralized. Pretty utopian stuff, right? Still it is an idea that has to be tried because the situation of society is desperate.

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

GompI do wonder whether any of us chooses our friends out of logical considerations.

That is precisely what I’ve had to learn to do as a survival strategy. This is why I’m so logical today. Being logical saved my life many times over, and it all starts with logically choosing who to associate with and who to be friends with. So this is a very good point that you make, most people aren’t very logical and this explains why most people end up in very bad or dangerous situations from which there is no escape.

AmyvBut, the problem is this does promote further violence.

Self defense does not promote violence. It’s simply the use of violence to end violence. I’m not naturally violent, but in order to protect myself from people who are, I have to be willing to unleash an unlimited amount of violence on those who try to harm me. The non violent must be protected violently from predators, its very much like protecting sheep from wolves who seek to slaughter them. Somebody has to do it, or the sheep will be slaughtered until there are no sheep left on earth. The way to protect the sheep is through deception, illusion, stealth, camouflage.

Remember when I told this blog that there are two kinds of people? The civilized and the brutes? The brutes/thugs make up the enforcers of the world, they are the soldiers, the “muscle”, and all soldiers must be well fed, taken care of, treated with respect, but the soldiers are not at the top of the chain of command. The brutes make up the front line but they are not the strategic minds who define the game, or the rules of war, or who decide on the tactics. The brute is good at doing one thing, hurting people. Whether this means beating people up, or killing people, or intimidating people into submission, this is what brutes do. If you’ve ever heard of the term “brute force”, thats where it comes from. If you are a non violent individual who seeks to protect yourself, get yourself some “brute force”, and I don’t tell you how to do that, but the easiest way is to simply pay a bodyguard.

The other kinda people, who we can call the civilized, or the domesticated people, are people who have been properly trained/raised in a way so that they aren’t violent by nature. They’ve learned how not to hurt others and how to be gentle. This group is also known as the “gentlemen”, and a gentleman is the opposite of a brute. But the gentleman and the brute work together, the gentleman uses his peoples skills to create the schemes, earn the money, run the system and build the society while the brute acts as the enforcer, the soldier, the bodyguard, the person who the gentleman sends in to settle an old score, or to receive payment on a debt, or to deal with another brute. Does this help explain the thinking process?

Amyv I highly recommend you read the art of war by Sun Tzu. It will help you understand the mindset of some of the more hardened youth of today, and it’s also the mindset of many on Wallstreet and in the corporate and political worlds who aren’t youths but who deal with backstabbing and bullies on a daily basis.

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

Amyv

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage http://www.sonshi.com/learn.html

Reply
December 8, 2008

Phil

To Amy and Gomp
When i put those comments about Christina and said I woild except the critisim that goes with it i will try to clarify what i meant .I do not understand why Christina or any parent would perticipate in a blog where these types of thing are being said . If you look at the post at the top of this thread before Christina joined on they were universally Brutal . Why should she expect that to change . Her comments were excepted by some rejected by others . When I receive critism ,the first thing I ask is what they are saying is right . If not i move on . If they are right (Such as Gomps spots comments I was certainly showing mine .) than I ask even if the person is right does not mean I was wrong.Amy we have both attacked Christina vicously with our words on this blog . Other people have the right to do so in return if they disagree . . the reason I will not try to defend back if some think I went to far is this is not a debate on what the sentence should be or if this one said this or who’s more responsibe Brit h Or mercades .Adult prison or juv. The statement was what is was there is no denying the intent so how could i disagree with someone who disagrees .That way I don.t have to get that upset over it .I think the other parents would face nasty barage on any thread in this case if they tried to defend thier daughters . Can you imagine the response if Brit h mom said that her daughter is not that bad and didn’t mean to really hurt victoria that bad but got carried away . They are in a no win situation . But the other Moms are not talking law suits . book deals and talk shows.

Reply
December 8, 2008

gompertz

Phil, you express some good thoughts. About the remarks made to Christina and the remark and made back to you, I was simply trying to show that these remarks are unpleasant for anyone, and that Christina is also a human being and has feelings, though she may be tough and some really dislike her. You are right, that the opening comments on this blog were much more nasty than whatever you or others have said. As for the kind of thing that gets debated here (like Amy said we sound like referees sometimes) that is all valid too and it wouldn’t have come to this if only the whole mess hadn’t been stretched out this long. The point I keep trying to make over and over is that I don’t disagree with you or Amy or others in terms of the logic of your arguments. As I said in my last post to Amy, I find her reasoning solid and worth thinking about, even if I reserve the right to not agree with all her conclusions, and the same in my disagreements with you and others.

My approach to this whole case is to look for the best possible outcome for all concerned. but by far my greatest concern is with Victoria, and we do remember that she is the one being victimized, I can see what is on the video as well as anyone else. Here is a girl being viciously beaten while begging for mercy and asking “what did I do to deserve this?” and my full support and sympathy have always been with her. Now you and others see this same thing, and you also support her and you are outraged that Mercades’ mother doesn’t seem sufficiently contrite and you question her motives. And you are all entitled to your opinions, and from a purely logical point of view, much of what is said makes sense. It’s not the logic that I disagree with, it’s that I don’t share in the reaction of wanting to vent my anger because I ask myself, how would it help Victoria if I went crazy like that? Even if I agreed that Christina is as bad as you seem to think, and I don’t think she is as bad as that. I have known too many people who are very different from what they first appear to be when you get to know them, sometimes better sometimes worse. So I am not going to pick apart your arguments or anyone else’s, I just express the thought that we are dealing here with real human beings,and their feelings are a concern to me. I have expressed this idea enough times, I think Victoria is helped more by looking for reconciliation than the other way, but as you said, everyone has the freedom to say what thay want as long as they are ready for a reaction, including me, and Christina too.

People object by pointing out that these girls didn’t consider that Victoria is a human being with feelings when they beat her. I know, and I know they showed no remorse and we are still waiting to see any sign of that. So maybe that is why the other parents haven’t come here, they can’t offer remorse that isn’t there. Has Christina offered an apology? Well, yes she has apologized, and people think the apology is insincere or doesn’t go far enough and conceals ulterior motives and I think I’m going to withhold judgment, because, in the final analysis it doesn’t matter whether you or me or anyone else accepts her apology. The only one who has the right to make that judgment is Victoria herself, and neither you nor I nor anyone else has the right to accept or reject Christina’s and her daughter’s apology for her. None of us can put ourselves in the place of Victoria, she alone has the power to forgive or not to forgive. The conclusion of this thing, if their is a conclusion, will take a while, no matter what happens to the plea deals. A lot more I could say and I will after I take care of stuff I need to take care of, I am not angry with people who express different views from mine and they don’t need to get angry at me.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Garland

Judging by Electronica’s last post on this blog (which was directed to Amy, of course), I do think that she needs to read yours, Gomp. This is what she said to Amy, by the way (spelling &amp grammar fixed).

(You say victim this, and victim that, but you don’t really care about Tori’s opinions. You only do when she says what you want to hear.

She’s the one who got beat up, and she’s the one who got arrested a lot &amp being judged &amp stuff, so maybe she knows a lot more about what’s fair for kids than you do and you should let her speak up on her own before you say “it’s so wrong if the girls dont go to prison.”)

Reply
December 8, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
For the record I never had even the slightest problem with your respone to my Chritina rant . You were bang -on ‘I have never had a problem with you accepting Christina in whatever form that you see fit . you took your shots for it and gave them back when you thought it nessecary . ..When a judge is making his or her ruling they often will do so based on thiers and societys outrage so emotion is never entirly taken out of the equation . My emotins have served me well and have given me what i think is a good moral compass .You seem to liike following different lines of logic to explore different angles so to me you found what christina had to say interesting . .I mayby Amy ,Nav (do not mean to speak for someone else ) just foung it insulting and degrading.
you have every right to hold your judgement comment favourabley on any point she or anyone else makes . I just can’t get past all the other stuff that i have already gone on record with . one thing is sure to me i have spent to much time on someone who really isn’t involved in the actual assult. One other point when alot of people really started disagreeing with her she left the Blog (i Think )
Came back to get some good and very personal shots at Amy and left again .
At least Amy has answered when called upon as have Electronica Nav and yourself.

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

Phil you just said that your emotions serve as your moral compass. The problem I have with this is that emotions are rarely stable, like the weather, human emotions change moment to moment and human emotional range is like night and day. I just don’t think emotion and gut feelings alone are an accurate measure of right and wrong.

In this trial I’ve set my emotions aside. I decided on the most rational prime objective I could find, which was to reduce teen violence. Once the prime objective was determined I then began the search for what steps we would have to take to accomplish this prime objective, and in doing this I did not take human emotions into account, not my own, not the victims, not the perps in the video.

I viewed this case as a doctor or surgeon would view his patients or as a lawyer would view his clients, with complete objectivity, in a manner as best as I could. With no emotions factored into it at all I determined that the best result would be jail time as a deterrent. When I came to this conclusion, I came to it from a mechanical and logical perspective and this is why many like Electronica for example disagreed with it. Unlike myself, they factored in the feelings and human emotions, not only their own personal feelings, but also the feelings of the humans involved.

As a result of this, Electronica and Amyv among others have commented that I’m offerring an unusual perspective, or that I’m treating the people involved like animals rather than like humans. I do recognize that the people involved are humans, which is why when Mercades and or her mother posted here I treated them as humans.

The problem with emotions is, if left unchecked, all of your decisions will become clouded. I’m not advocating that anyone change their process of decision making if this is what you’ve been doing for years, I’m simply asking you all to consider that ethical points of view can be reached from completely different decision making processes which don’t require gut feelings or subjectivity in determining what is right or wrong. I determined that exclusively based on what I perceived would be the consequences. Nothing else was factored into my process.

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

Gomp is right, everyone posting here is human and should be respected no matter what position or perspective they are coming from. Even if Mercades herself posts here, she ought to be given basic respect.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Amyv

Phil – I have truely tryed to be fair to everyone on this blog. Fair does not mean I agree with them or that I highly question their motives. Anyone coming on to find support or right wrongs I think should be truely welcome.

This has nothing to do with her being one of the mothers of these girls. It has everything to do with what I have stated all along. You have recently stated it as well. Underlying comments about the victim do not deserve support.

I have tryed to show these time and time again. I get no response to what these comments mean by many of the people on this post. That part is completely ignored. I get bashed for not recognizing her courage. So, When I have commented on very,very specific statements made their has been absolutely no reply. Except for a select few. These issues are totally ignored.

However, when ‘attacked’ the blogs start fllying. Once again not from everyone. So I just gave up. Ignore these comments if you can not come up with a reasonable explaination for them. Their are many to choose from.

This has nothing to do with my feelings for Mercades, I do not know the girl. I find all of their actions in need of punishment. As I stated before non-violence does not always mean lack of hitting the person yourself.

I do wonder, if B.H. mother came on here and talked about how sorry she was if she would be so welcome. Not sure. Really off the issue. You see I have been accused of singleing out one girl. Nope.

If we are really all to be fair, that should be extended to all of these girls. Not just one or two selectively. That is what I have been trying to get across the entire time. We have no way to measure which of these girls will be repeat offenders. So, may concern with the wait and see attitude on that one is, I don’t want another victim. period.

Gomp – People that ask for money,’I will refrain from calling them beggars’ really do come from all walks of life. I heard a perfect song on this issue and right now can not remember it. We don’t know what tragedies may have befallen them in life that put them where they are today.

So, I for one will give. If I am wrong and they walk down the street and buy beer, that is a chance I will take. Because, even if I believe just one out of twenty may really need the money for food, I will take my chances.

Thank you for your latest blog. We all cooled down and hopefully agreed to totaly disagree on certain issues.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Amyv

General question – The interview I saw with Victoria was quite moving in her mild nature. However, at no time did I hear her say she did not feel these girls did no deserve punishment.

Please direct me to where this comment was found. Since, Victoria is the one who had to move, justice has already been thrown by the way side. Although, I for one, seeing support for even the most violent of these girls think she made a wise decision. This is what I would call adding insult to injury and the bullies seem to have won. Unless of course they do feel remorse or have a shred of decency. Then they should truely find a way to pay this victim bac for the continued problems they cause her.

Once again, if they read this post, Surely none of these things should be taken as a testament to their characters. It would further show their lack of character. Victorias has held through the test of time. She should be proud of herself.

Reply
December 8, 2008

gompertz

Amy, only have a minute to post, so all I can ask is,speaking of songs, did you ever hear Everlast singing “What it’s like.” That’s my favorite on that subject. Will post later.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Electronica

scott heres how i figure brittis punishment. its a misdemener bating so the max would be 12 months in jail but britti wasnt 18 yet and she wasnt in trouble before. so it should be like half thats 6 months. but i wanne give britti a lot of home arrest so i take off two months in jail for two years of home arrest!

and scott it isnt fair to give her extra jail cause someones mom said soemthing we dont even know for sure it was about britti. but if it proves true then yes add some jail time and home arrest. and if it turns out britti was in trouble back in kentucky or wherever shes from then yes add some more time. but unless you know its true for sure you dont punish its supposed to be beyond resonable proof.

and scott and amy and phil i think you dont realize how bad home arrest can be it must really suck unless you had no life to begin with.

and amy tori didnt say no punishment she said no prison. i think tori knows home arrest can be like torture. i mean she always ran away from home so for her maybe home arrest would be worse than jail.and why did all those girl ask to get off home arrest so soon if itisnt so bad i ber they were going crazy sitting home. so it can be like real revenge on those girls they gonne suffer but no one will think they got punished!

so i dont think toris stupid or afraid shes just fair and knows stuff.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Amyv

Gomp – I had the feeling you would think my comment about a rocket scientist was directed at you. You would be surprised who it was pointed at I think. However, she could have been checking out this blog the entire time. Absolutely, no one could have had to given her that info. I would be inclined to think the latter. Sorry if you misunderstood.

If we really are forgetting sins of the past out of respect for me, unless i slip again (lol) please do not use my use of the word manipulator as the horrific thing being said about this mother. O.k. too emotional their. Feel free it was true I said it so who am I to tell you what to say and not to say. Sorry again. I still hold to my opionions but just as yours are opinions so are mine.

Notice I have not responded to the criticism of my parenting skills and attack on my daughter. That should have enabled me the right to jump all over this mother. However, not worth debating over. So I will just let it go.

People are really going to think we have gone off the deep end. However, a song in particular to this case try Carrie Underwood, I’ll Stand by you. This song shows was true friendship should be like.

Hi Phil – Talk to you about your comments later.

Garland – Have not heard much from you lately.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Phil

To Amy
If Brit h mom came on to say how sorry than she would probally be welcomed and respected . If she came on and didn’t . I don,t think so .
It is so hard to deal in the hypo-thetical.So could be very wrong
To Greg s
I understand what you say .Emotion its self can be detsuctive . This will be one of these points that will be very hard to put in proper words . but here it goes
Mason murders was not just another murder ..Killing or rapeing a child is never seen in the same light as doing the same to an adult ,even though both are human beings. As a society we are more outraged when someone kills in one fashion over another and we set up laws to take this into account . again the judge usally has minimum and maximes sentences to handle this in most crimes before the courts. The reason in the first place that this was moved to an adult court was that when it was viewed thier was a colective outpour of emotion from eveybody involved . The law called the attack animalistic Most agreed .We must always use the laws and logic and purpose when deciding the fate of anyone before the legal system but to say it has no role .i will disagree .
I cannot watch that tape without feeling angry and sad and a liitle bit sick to my stomach . I hope i am never able to do so..

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

There used to be a time where it was rational to kill all males, adult and child. This was rational because of the cultural situation of the time, where it was culturally unacceptable for women to be soldiers, it became military strategy to kill all the males as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Today the situation is very different because there are female soldiers, killing all the males would not be a rational strategy. Now a strategy of surviving in a state of nature and in the context of a war of all against all, is to kill all who threaten your existence, whether it be male, female, adult, child, human, animal or machine.

Just like a lot of people, I have the instinct to simply kill all rapists and child killers. But once again it depends entirely on the situation. In the situation of a state of nature, where it’s every man for himself, the rational thing to do is to keep them alive and use the child killers and rapists as slave labor. Usually there are jobs that nobody else wants to do, and it’s rational to give the worst jobs to the worst people. If we kill all the worst people then we’ll eventually have an economic deficit.

The reason it’s rational to keep the worst people alive is because in a state of nature where it’s everybody for themselves, securing natural resources is the most important priority. If child killers and rapists can maintain a function in helping you secure your natural resources which maintains your existence and the existence of your people, then it’s unethical to kill the child killers and rapists due to the consequences it would have on the security of you and your people. Somebody has to do the worst jobs.

These days security is about threat analysis, measuring the threat level of each individual, and when you do that you’ll realize that children are the least likely to kill you. It doesn’t mean it could never happen, it’s certainly possible that children could be trained as assassins, but it’s much more likely that adult males and adult females are going to be out to get you than children. And because of the fact that children are the least threatening kind of human next to babies and fetuses, killing children is seen as universally wrong.

I don’t really have an emotional reaction to the tape anymore. I did the first few times of viewing it, but the truth is, I don’t think emotion matters much in these sorts of cases because it wont solve anything. It might feel good to be angry and the anger might be justified, but what is it solving?

Reply
December 8, 2008

Garland

Hi, Amy. Did you read my comment on here recently? I was busy arguing with this Nitwit on a different subject here:
http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-11155-0.html?forum…

It never ends, does it?

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

Phil my post was in response to you when you said

“Mason murders was not just another murder ..Killing or rapeing a child is never seen in the same light as doing the same to an adult ,even though both are human beings. As a society we are more outraged when someone kills in one fashion over another and we set up laws to take this into account .”

And what my post attempts to say is that the context of a situation has more influence on what is ethical and unethical than the feeling of the actions within the situation. Killing children to save the world always feels wrong to a majority of people, even killing soldiers and terrorists feels wrong to some people, and in these contexts feelings have to be ignored because security ultimately trumps emotions.

Anybody who threatens your existence or the existence of the people you care about, is your moral enemy, and if you are a non violent person and they threaten your existence, in my opinion they do not deserve to exist, the only exception being situations where you are non violent but you give the nuclear codes to terrorists, but children don’t have an nuclear codes.

Reply
December 8, 2008

Scott

Amy, Tori did not say on camera that she doesn’t want the girls to go to jail. But Deborah Norville hostess of Inside Edition said that Tori said she didn’t want the girls to go to jail. Was that taken out of context? There is no way to know because I didn’t hear Tori say it. And if Tori said that that doesn’t mean she doesn’t want alot of probation and some counseling for the girls.

Thanks for the explanation Electronica. And yes I don’t think home arrest is anyhting too bad. Those girls can be home schooled and watch telelvison and be online all day. I believe Hardcastle and Mayes are out of high school so they don’t even have school anymore.

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December 8, 2008

gompertz

Greg: I looked up the articles about Dr. Kiehl’s work on psychopathy you posted on Dec. 5. Anyone who wants can read them, so I will just try to summarize my reaction rather than quote from them extensively. From these articles I get the impression that while there is a relation between psychopathy and a proclivity for violence, not all psychopaths are violent and not all violent people are psychopaths. As for the ability to feel empathy, maybe no psychopath can feel empathy, but I assume that this may be true for people who are not psychopaths as well. Just one quote from Dr. Kiehl: “it is very unlikely there will ever be a one-to-one correspondence between brain biology and violence.”
The reason I bring this up is not to diminish the importance of the work of those like Dr. Kiehl who have greatly increased our ability to predict and control criminal behavior. And please understand that I am not one who is inclined to argue just for the sake of arguing, but to clarify matters in order to learn. The articles do point to the success of fMRI technology for establishing correlations between brain damage and psychopathy, and yet Dr. Kiehl admits that violence and lack of remorse might have other causes.

I would think that the tendency toward aggression is a legacy of our evolution under harsh environmental conditions. Also lack of empathy may have its origins in the human tendency to favor one’s own family and tribe over strangers, and again this behavior might have survival value. Under conditions of scarce food and shelter, those who show too much concern for the stranger may find themselves and their offspring taken advantage of. Under conditions of civilized life these traits are not as desirable, but they are still part of our inheritance and everyone, no matter how peaceful and compassionate must realize that human life is still largely governed by behavior that we inherited from distant ancestors in that state of nature we are struggling to overcome. Is it possible that the biological causes of aggressive and selfish behavior are rooted in a combination of factors, depending on the interaction of different brain modules that are hard to pinpoint by existing technology?

What I need to understand, as concerns the topic here is this. I sometimes reread earlier blogs because reviewing things helps me understand better. So I refer to something you said to Electronica a while back, when you were discussing Brittani Hardcastle and April Cooper, and at one point you said they are psychopaths. Since I know you are generally precise in your statements, and do not usually use terms like that without a good reason, I was wondering whether there is any way we can come to that conclusion without the evidence of brain scans and we know they have not undergone that kinds of examination.

So I don’t know if you stand by that description or not, it’s just that the term psychopath is often used in a purely pejorative sense and I am not sure if you meant the term in some kind of looser sense than usual. It is quite possible that at least one and maybe all the accused would be found to have identifiable brain damage under examination. But I don’t know if we can conclude this by their behavior alone, repulsive and nasty though it might be. Ultimately, we can trace all behavior to either a purely biological cause, or to a combination of environmental and somatic factors. But without more evidence I would rather believe that there is hope that all the accused could be susceptible to treatment, either through medicine, therapy, or whatever is available. And if they are found to be incorrigible we would still want to treat them according to civilized standards, of course.

Sorry to be so verbose here. I am also not clear whether we can deduce from the articles whether psychopathy itself has any environmental, i.e. social components and what that would mean for the prospect of reversing it. I don’t introduce these questions to be contentious. Having just read the articles I would like to understand more of this interesting and important subject and especially as it relates to the present case.

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

gompertz actually the lack of empathy is the defining difference between psychopaths/sociopaths and everyone else. It’s not just that, but if someone isn’t capable of feeling empathy at all, they are probably a psychopath. It’s true that not all psychopaths are violent, in fact most psychopaths aren’t violent.

Most psychopaths are manipulators. There is no need to be violent when you can manipulate the emotions of people to get them to do what you want, exploiting their fear, their compassion, or preying on their insecurity, the biggest sign of a psychopathic personality type is manipulation not violence. Anybody can be violent, violence is natural, you back a person into a corner,you make them scared, and they’ll be more likely to respond violently to you. An ordinary violent person will be violent and feel remorse and empathy, a psychopath who is violent might actually enjoy what they do.

I think in specific, violence is not a result of simply being a psychopath and that is proven by the fact that there are many, probably the majority of psychopaths aren’t violent. A lot of psychopaths are female and the female psychopaths aren’t typically violent.

The only type of violence which I think a psychopath is most likely to commit would be rape. Rape requires an exceptional lack of empathy, combined with a violent personality type. 20% of all prisoners are psychopaths, and while I don’t know what crimes these prisoners commit, I suspect that the majority of rapists are the psychopathic sort. I don’t know what kinda brain a rapist has but it’s obvious they don’t feel much empathy if they are capable of it at all. I’m no expert though so this is just guessing.

Aggression and violence has nothing to do with psychopath/sociopaths and more to do with impulse control. A psychopath or sociopath might not have any ability to do high level reasoning but they might have a lot of self control to control their emotions. Violent people are people who cannot control their impulses,, the frontal lobes are the area of the brain which manage impulse control, and if you at the effect of lead poisoning on the brain, it increases aggression because it damages the frontal lobes which manages emotions and impulses.

What this means is that violent personality does have biological causes, there is probably a genetic component which controls whether a person has a short temper or not, but there is also the environmental and nutritional component, if you consume lead as a child you damage the frontal lobes development, and if you damage the development of the frontal lobes you wont be able to control your emotions very well, whether or not it leads to you being uncontrolled and violent, or uncontrolled depression, or some other manifestation, it depends on genes and environment.

This means you can have psychopaths who dont have short tempers and who don’t get violent because they dont stay angry. Also they might know how to think with their head and not their heart when they do get angry, controlling their impulses.

Also lack of empathy may have its origins in the human tendency to favor one&rsquos own family and tribe over strangers,

It’s one thing not to have empathy for strangers. Nobody expects you to. I don’t go around crying for children in other countries and in other families either. Thats because it’s reasonable to focus on your own survival first, but I don’t think this had anything to do with how empathy evolved.

People who lack empathy also don’t tend to live as long on average. The life span of people was 35 years at one point, and obviously we don’t want to go back to that brutishly short existence. It’s more likely that empathy has allowed for us to have longer lifespans than before because empathy is the emotion which allows you to have a tribe at all. If you don’t have empathy then you’ll have an individual consciousness but it will be limited in it’s understanding of the tribal or global scale.

&rdquoand again this behavior might have survival value. &ldquo Every behavior under certain conditions has a survival value. But our evolution has been more greatly effected by capitalism than by stuff like this. If we look at how tribal cultures operate, they don’t tolerate rapists and murderers anymore than western culture does. In fact tribal cultures are a lot less tolerant of this, justice would be very swift, so if you lack empathy, eventually you’d hurt someones feelings or hurt someone physically and in the tribal culture you’d simply be killed. There wouldn’t be a long trial.

&rdquoUnder conditions of scarce food and shelter, those who show too much concern for the stranger may find themselves and their offspring taken advantage of. &ldquo

What you are speaking of is called evolutionary psychology. But the lack of empathy during the mythical state of nature,while it might actually be good in an environment where it’s everybody for themselves, that environment never actually existed for humanity. Humans have always been tribal,
and there has always been interaction between the tribes. Neanderthal did not have government and advanced social systems, but the modern human for the most part has had the ability to deal with strangers since language was invented.

&rdquohuman life is still largely governed by behavior that we inherited from distant ancestors in that state of nature we are struggling to overcome. &ldquo There is no evidence that this state of nature ever existed longer than perhaps a few days or weeks at a time. Certainly not longer enough to influence human evolution. If you look at a riot, or situations where there is completely no authority or society at all, it usually only lasts for a few days, then leaders emerge, then people follow these leaders, then these leaders create laws that govern the rest, then the leaders meet with all the other leaders of the world. The way that humans avoided the state of nature in the tribal state involved trade, but they didn’t trade money, so they didn’t fight over the same stuff. They bartered. It’s true if some stranger who didn’t speak their language came onto their turf they’d take them prisoner, but this doesn’t mean they didn’t feel empathy, it simply means the conditions didn’t really allow the practice of actions displaying empathy, which is very different. In prison you probably wont be able to display much empathy either.

&rdquoIs it possible that the biological causes of aggressive and selfish behavior are rooted in a combination of factors, depending on the interaction of different brain modules that are hard to pinpoint by existing technology? &ldquo Aggression is not the same as violence. You and I are aggressive intellectually, but we aren’t violent. A doctor is aggressive at curing an illness but they aren’t violent. Aggression is good when applied properly, and it’s deadly when applied in the wrong way. In todays society physical aggression leads to a dead end. In yesterdays society physical aggression often lead to a dead end but was a necessary evil.

&rdquoI was wondering whether there is any way we can come to that conclusion without the evidence of brain scans and we know they have not undergone that kinds of examination.

I don’t know for sure what BH and AC are feeling, but from their behavior in the video, if thats all I had to go by, they don’t seem capable of much empathy, and after the fact they aren’t showing any remorse either. Right after they beat Victoria up, I hear now that they continued to threaten her? If it was just about pride and status, after you beat a person up it’s over right? It seems their first thought wasn’t to feel bad about how they knocked her tooth out, blacked her eyes, etc, their first thought was getting caught and they began trying to determine how to scare her into submission. I don’t claim to know whether or not they are a psychopath and I’m not making that claim official, I’m just saying their behavior in the video is clearly psychopathic. Many people who are bullies and who aren’t good people were and are disgusted by what they saw in the video, especially the part where Victoria is in the corner crying and BH continues hitting her. The fact that Victoria doesn’t even hit back, and BH continues beating on her, wouldn’t you think if a person is really a half decent person they’d feel very bad about that? I know if I did that, or if anyone I know did that, at age 17, they’d regret that behavior and would try to give every indication that they understand the damage they did. BH does not seem to even understand the damage of what she did. Lets not forget the Sheriff said they were more concerned about cheerleading practice than the victim.

Now, this is not enough to diagnose someone as a psychopath and thats not what I’m doing. I’m saying the behavior is a red flag, kinda like how torturing or killing dogs is a red flag in the case of Michael Vick, it’s something that a psychiatrist ought to look for when evaluating their mental status. I’d think the psychiatrist, and all of these girls need to see a psychiatrist, should at least look at the functioning of their brain just to see if it’s healthy. And it’s in these girls best interest, because if they are found to be psychopaths for example, then they truly didn’t know any better, they cannot read fear on peoples faces, they cannot read emotions to know when to stop, and then the situation where BH didn’t stop in the corner makes sense. BH could claim to be mentally ill and people might feel a bit of compassion, or at least understand that it was something beyond her control. Kinda like if a person is autistic and they do something stupid, it’s harder to hate them.

If on the other hand they knew what they were doing and did it anyway, then they deserve prison because the last thing you want is for people to think it’s okay to do this. I don’t think AC is a psychopath at all btw, she’s just 14 and a kid, she could grow out of it. BH is 18 years old though, and if she acts like that, obviously she’s got mental illness, but the only way to know what that illness is, is by scanning her brain. And she has a right to know if something is wrong with her, for her own sake she should want to study her own brain, it’s hers. She should be aware of her strengths and weaknesses and if she’s not capable of empathy, she should know it.

&rdquothat the term psychopath is often used in a purely pejorative &ldquo she could be a psychopath or a sociopath, it really doesn’t matter to me. We can discuss and try to analyze her through her behavior on tape because she put her behavior out there to be analyzed. That gives us the right to put it through analysis, but nobody can make an accurate diagnosis through the video. She should see a real psychiatrist who can help her learn whats wrong with her, and maybe teach her some anger management. If she finds out that her brain isn’t damaged, she can focus on spiritually enlightenment and it could bring her to a peaceful place someday. If she’s brain damaged then that means shes just never going to be good at certain things, and people will have to step up and show her.

When it comes to analyzing situations, the psychology of the individuals involved don’t matter very much. However when it comes to understanding the individuals, on a personal level to help treat them, or help them develop spiritually, then you need to understand their psychology. So I agree that I don’t know their psychology, I cannot conduct fmri on them to find out, I just watch peoples behavior to learn their capabilities. I think most people are capable of being cruel but BH took it to psychopathic levels. This is why the people watching it called it an animalistic beating, because something about seeing Victoria being beat into the corner just didn’t look or feel right, to any sane person. Nor did the look on BH’s face look right when she was doing that. She seemed to be enjoying it a little bit too much, even her friends seemed disturbed by it. What must be done is for these girls is they need to see a psychiatrist, most importantly BH and AC need to see psychiatrists, Victoria might benefit from treatment but I wouldn’t force her to see a psychiatrist, but I think BH and AC have to because they are on tape acting crazy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_psychology

Reply
December 8, 2008

GregS

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

Reply
December 9, 2008

gompertz

Greg, thanks for the thoughtful and comprehensive answer. It helps me sort out many of my questions about social matters in general and this case in particular.

I have always been struck by the way capacity for empathy seems to vary from place to place and also from one time period to the next. The German people of today are very different from the previous generation. And the reaction of Americans differs too. In 1991 During the first Gulf War (actually it was not a war but a massacre) Americans acted like fans at a football game and cheered while the bombs were falling on cities and killing thousands of civilians. Today after the debacle of the last eight years Americans seem much less sanguine about war and express concern that there are real victims in places like Iraq. Some have even become more tolerant of views like those expressed by the much-maligned Reverend Wright when he reminded us that we bombed Hiroshima and other cities “without blinking an eye.” Yes, we sure did!

Whatever the explanation for that, people differ from one locality to another in their concern for fellow citizens. New York is notoriously cold and hostile, though New Yorkers get indignant and deny it. I have seen too many instances of New Yorkers showing no feeling at all when someone gets hit by a car and lies in the street while curious onlookers gape or laugh. Let them deny it if they want. Pittsburgh is a much more friendly place and people in distress find the natives there ready to help. Why the difference? The way people respond is different because they respond to a different social environment, and I don’t think it takes the proverbial rocket scientist to see it.

From my own observations it seems that not only violence but extreme cruelty are becoming more prevalent and acceptable, and I fear that the behavior we see in that one place in Polk County is far from unusual. I doubt whether harsh sentences by themselves will make much difference, and worse yet, no punishment at all will embolden the bullies. So whatever the solution might be it must involve a radical transformation of the whole society, and ideas for that have been presented here. One other thing that I get from Dr. Kiehl’s articles is the thought that for some professions a psychopathic personality would be an advantage. The law and politics come to mind. It is different for a doctor or surgeon. If you operate on someone of course you cannot be emotional, but I think a surgeon can still have empathy and be rational and be a good surgeon. In the case of a lawyer, he must be ruthless and unfeeling, like the lawyers who put Victoria through hell on the witness stand. That requires not only an ability to suppress emotion but any kind of human feeling whatsoever and for that it helps to have a psychopathic personality. Maybe not only the defendants but also their lawyers should be given brain scans in the interests of advancing scientific knowledge.

Since lawyers and politicians have such a great influence in defining the values of our society, it might be that is a reason for the practice of rewarding psychopathic behavior, not just in its violent manifestations. Today there is a tendency to esteem the cold, calculating person and demean the person who shows empathy. In my own life I find that while I have compassion I also have to be wary of those who see compassion as a sign of weakness or foolishness. It requires a person to have the ability to meet each situation with an open mind and not come from a limited perspective. So one thing I agree that people would benefit from reading the art of war. I have read many translations of that work and it is always fresh and new. To those who don’t like war, you will find that Sun Tzu says the best general is the one who can win without fighting.

Reply
December 9, 2008

sarto

Christina,

Volvi a este blog despues de unas semanas para ver si algo nueva haga pasado, y descubri que todavia las mismas personas estan hablando y hablando y hablando y no se precisamente porque. Son como cuervos en una linea telefonica que no tienen mas que hacer. Pienso que solamente la opinion de gompertz vale porque el te trata con respeto, pero los otros hablan no se porque.

Pero, in la posablilidad que tadivia lees este blog, te escribo para decirte que he rezado mucho para ti y para tu hija. Mis propias hijas me han ayudado entender que es muy dificil ser madre, que los madres lloran para sus hijos y los defiendan siempre cuando estan en peligro. No te voy a juzgar ni a ti ni a tu hija, la vida esta bastante dificil como es. En vez de mi condenacion, la promesa de mis oraciones y una oracion a Dios para mis propias nietas que estan de la misma edad como April.

Entonces, para ti y para Mercades mis oraciones mejores. Mas que todo para Mercades, que, despues de este tiempo dificil y con un futuro desconocido, ella pueda vivir la vida de una adulta contenta, con sabiduria y valor, aceptando las dificultades de la vida y, un a dia, una esposa buena con una familia buena. Pues entonces, que el senor te bendiga. Lei hoy las palabras de psalmo 31, que es la oracion de un hombre rodeado con enemigos, buscando la libertad y confiando en el Senor. Asi tienes que sentir y asi seguramente siente Mercades. Ojala que leas este psalmo. Es una buena oracion durante estos dias tan dificiles. Paz.

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December 9, 2008

gompertz

Sarto, I don’t know Spanish well enough to speak it or write it, but knowing Latin and French I can make out enough to understand some and my sentiments are in harmony with yours. Keep the Faith, the truth will win.

Reply
December 9, 2008

GregS

gompertz I don’t think capacity for empathy changes from generation to generation all that much, what changes is the training. Today for example more people can feel empathy for homosexuals, while in the past people thought AIDS was the cure for homosexuality. This has more to do with people understanding the science and being better trained, this has to do with knowledge overcoming ignorance due to the power of the internet. I don’t think peoples brains have changed, but the way we distribute information has changed.

In Germany, the German people didn’t have knowledge of actual science, they didn’t have an internet, they were getting and trusting all the information which came from the government. The problem Germany had was the result of brainwashing and psychological manipulation moreso than natural capacity.

&ldquois the thought that for some professions a psychopathic personality would be an advantage. The law and politics come to mind.&rdquo

Psychopathic personalities would make the best hitmen. Law and politics are among the worst professions for psychopathic personalities, which is why we have such stupid laws and are so politically corrupt that we can’t solve any of the big problems. Just because a lot of psychopathic personality types gravitate towards the industries of power and influence, it does not mean these personality types deserve to be in those critical positions. Remember with power should come responsibility, and psychopaths aren’t known for being very responsible.

&rdquoIt is different for a doctor or surgeon. If you operate on someone of course you cannot be emotional, but I think a surgeon can still have empathy and be rational and be a good surgeon. &ldquo

The flaw you are making in your thinking is assuming that there is a dichotomy. Psychopaths aren’t capable of empathy but that doesn’t mean a psychopath will be any more reasonable than anyone else. Psychopaths feel other emotions, fear, anger, greed. This is why if you put psychopaths in position to make laws you can except the lawmakers to be easily bribed, which happens to be currently the case precisely proving my point. You can bribe a politician and you can manipulate lawyers and the legal process through bribes as well.

There is more to being rational than simply being in control of your emotions. Most psychopaths aren’t any more rational than anybody else. But a psychopath would make a great contract killer, hitman, or soldier. A psychopath would make a great bodyguard, enforcer, bouncer. A psychopath would probably make a great spy, assassin, agent. The types of jobs which have a chain of command. You receive an order, you follow the order.

If you lack empathy, there are plenty of jobs which don’t require people skills, working with computers as a programmer, building machines to send them into space, then there are the arts which don’t require direct interaction with people. Even a surgeon doesn’t require direct interaction with people. However if you are going to be responsible for or to the people as a politician is, or if you are in a position which influences thousands or millions of lives, then you should be an exceptional person. You’ll need to have empathy to be good at these jobs, if you look at all the best politicians, they all have empathy, or they fake it so well that everyone thought they did. In the end if you don’t have it and you are a politician, you will end up being hated by everyone.

What we can see is that professions don’t always fit the personality type. Sometimes we put the most vulnerable personalities into the worst possible profession, like for example putting the most greediest psychopathic individuals on WallStreet and then acting surprised when the economy collapses from all that irrational greed. Of course it was going to collapse, the exact wrong personality types when placed in the worst positions produce all the bad results we keep seeing. The least greedy people in the country should be managing the money and working on Wallstreet. We need to take the people who do social work and who work for charities and send these types of people to Wallstreet to clean it up.

Any emotion is a sign of weakness, not just empathy or compassion. Greedy psychopaths have limited resistance to bribes. No compassion at all involved on Wallstreet, but it’s very easy to offer bribes, or to manipulate people who have short tempers. Any emotion is a weakness, and it’s not only psychopaths who will exploit your emotions, we all do. I’m sure you’ve been guilt tripped before. I’m sure women have manipulated your emotions before, it happens, but if you learn to be rational it happens a lot less.

Most humans, no matter what personality or psychology, are easily manipulated.

Reply
December 9, 2008

GregS

Gomp I think the current situation is as bad as it is, not simply because psychopaths are politicians, because thats not really anything new. The reason it’s so bad today is because the people who control the puppets we call politicians (the people who control the money make the laws), have interests which compete against one another , and of course some of these elite people are just plain evil and want to hurt people, and hate the homeless, the poor, homosexuals, jews, etc.

But it’s not really about politicians, politicians are controlled by the mafia, by elite old money families, or they are bribed by big wig ceos and corporate types.

Reply
December 9, 2008

christina garcia

Sarto,
Yo se q abeses yo digo muchas cosas mala 🙁 y Dios tiene mas broncas q yo y el nunca levanta su voz, pero no soy perfecta, solo espero q el puede pardoneme. Mucho gente me dijeron cosas tanto. Gracias para el credo. Estoy preocupada por mi nena y por mi familia. me boy a recuerdo que su voz esta en todo lados como. mi voz va aser escuchada.y eso psalms 31 es muy muy chido! Muchas gracias mi amigo..mis lagrimas son real

Reply
December 9, 2008

GregS

Gomp here is a perfect example of the sorta corruption I’m talking about -&gt

rawstory.com/news/2008/Ill._Governor_suspends_business_with_Bank_1208.html

chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-rod-blagojevich-1209,0,7997804.story

Notice the connection between him suspending business with the bank and being arrested?

Reply
December 9, 2008

gompertz

Greg, what I was trying to say about lawyers and politicians is that as the system is set up now, the psychopaths and lawyers do gravitate toward those fields, not that they should. While psychopaths would make good hit men, I wonder if filling the technology and engineering professions is so good. What about all the effort put into the development of nuclear weapons while environmental concerns lagged behind until pollution had reached levels where even the most apathetic person could see there is a problem. So there always needs to be a concern with who is setting the agenda for scientists and technologists.

In an ideal society the psychopaths would not have any position of power at all, whether political, economic or scientific, because in any of these areas power implies the ability to do harm. Perhaps they should be restricted to the same kind of menial work you would recommend for the convicted rapist, once science can identify them.

Or perhaps programming or doing other jobs requiring technical skills would be okay, as long as someone more responsible determines the goals. I presume that the psychopathic scientist would be just as comfortable working to clean up pollution or making safer automobiles as he would building bombs, just let someone else make the choice.

As for Germany, I think if the brains of the top nazis had been examined we would find they were defective. These people rarely if ever engaged in violence themselves, and if not for the political situation they would probably have lived peaceful lives in ordinary professions. Their brains did not change, of course, what changed was the social environment. In those days in Germany politicians and lawyers were expected to be honorable and I think it was the military profession that attracted the psychopaths, who had plenty of opportunity to practice their brutality in wars of conquest. For the English, the main attraction for psychopaths would have been serving as soldiers or administrators in their vast overseas empire, where the subject people of Africa and Asia were available to be exploited in all sorts of ways. So in every case, the social and political situation decided where the psychopath would find fulfillment, whether through violence or more indirect forms of oppression. In America, as we recognize, it is the law, politics, and Wall Street that attract the psychopaths, and that is what needs to change.

One more point and then I must disappear for a while. I don’t equate compassion with emotion, if you look at the way Buddhists use the terms it means something very different from emotion, and it is not incompatible with being decisive in opposing evil. Genghis Khan said “Regret is the fruit of pity,” and I agree. Here was a great warrior, grandfather of a Buddhist Emperor, who knew from bitter experience how dangerous it can be to show mercy to people who have no mercy for you. To get to Buddhist compassion you must renounce the things to which you are emotionally attached, and start from there. I haven’t got to the end of the road but I made a beginning and it is not something I would have chosen on the basis of following my natural inclinations.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Electronica

amy saying learn to defend yourself isnt the same like saying get kayla jumped in revenge. you made it look like thats ok now just cause you heard they could get home arrest and you dont like that.

gronwups say stuff and then they flip you never know when they really mean what they say.

like lots of grownups say you trash talk you deserve a beating. but when they see the vid everyone says its always wrong to beat someone just for something she said.

and ppl say its lucky toris not dead you can die easy getting beat but then they say put them in adult prison let grownups beat them and no one cares if they die.

and ppl say they feel sorry for tori and it doesnt matter if she did trash talk or threten it doesnt compare and i agree. but then ppl say they have no compassion for the girls at all like they dont care if they die and when i say i would feel sorry if they died like getting beat in prison or jumped by some gang or like shot by some crazy person im told i like them im on their side i sympatize with them im impressed with them and i dont remember what else ppl said about me.

and amy you first say trust cops trust schools dont take the law into your own hands and then you flip and its now ok to jump ppl in revenge.

and amy you can get some revenge without jumping the bad girl you can get in her face in front of ppl and call her names and a wimp and stuff and beat her up if she fights humiliate her if she doesnt ive done that but never sucker punched anyone or beat them if theyrefused to fight maybe pushed to get things started but never attacked never jumped. so you dont have to be as bad as they were to get revenge but the problem is ppl stand up only for friends not for other ppl not even for those they like they dont want complications.

and like i said im not sure i should be doing that anymore i dont want someone get real hurt i mean injured or die so idk.

Reply
December 9, 2008

gompertz

Yes, nothing but sunshine for the governor lol. In Roman times, politicians who tried to buy the office of Emperor by bribing the military were quickly terminated by the Praetorian Guard. Things were so much simpler in those days.

Reply
December 9, 2008

GregS

gompertz I can’t say I agree with you that psychopaths shouldn’t have any power at all.

I think power should be earned, and if a psychopath is really good at a certain thing then they should have some power. It all depends on how responsible they are.

Power should be a reward given to the responsible. An example could be the charismatic leader, often this person gets things done even though they might be psychopaths. In situations where we have to get things done, we give the power to whoever gets the job done.

I don’t think all psychopaths are like rapists so I wouldn’t go so far to punish people for how their brain works. We have to look at how they live and what they can accomplish, I think the solution to corruption is not to let any one man have too much power, psychopath not, because it’s not just psychopaths who are corrupt. Some psychopaths don’t care about money at all and are ultra religious, to the point of being extremists, you are forgetting about religion which plays more of a role in our lives than government.

The rational way to determine who gets to stay in power should be based on their track record. However for some jobs I do agree a personality test would be useful, along with other psychological screening processes, especially if it
nuclear or biological weapons.

Reply
December 9, 2008

GregS

Gomp Democracy has always been for sale. And the banks control all the money.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Phil

To Gomp and GregS
Reading your blogs on the physco stuff couldn,t follow alot of it but both of you seem to have done your research .With brit h I have an easier time recognising the rage or April’s role in wanting to prove herself in her part of the beating .Even Mercades and kayla I believe I understand thier motivation in what happened , Brit m is the one that i have the most time coming to terms with . Anger can usually be diagnosed and through hard work controlled to a degree. I am sure Brit h now realizes the demon she has inside . Brit M however seemed to really enjoy the whole experience and How do you treat some one who enjoyed the process as opposed to someone who lost controll.

Reply
December 9, 2008

gompertz

Phil, interesting analysis. At first I thought BH was angry in the sense that she had a demon that could be exorcised. I have known people whose violence flared up quickly and, though they could cause physical damage while they were in that condition, their anger would subside and then they felt bad about what they had done. The other kind of violent people were the ones I thought were far more dangerous. Those were the cool and calculating ones who struck without warning, quiet, quick and efficient, always with the same “poker face” expression. So maybe I exaggerate, most violent people exhibit a mixture of these characteristics, but you get my point, there is a difference between the angry ones and the calculating ones. At first I thought BH was one of the hotblooded ones who just acted on anger and that is something you can cure through counseling and anger management. I thought if she got over the anger she would be remorseful. There is that picture of her sitting on the clink next to little Kayla, both looking so pitiful, and I thought it might be remorse. Now I’m not so sure. I hear reports that there is no sign of remorse yet. And it has been a while. As Greg said, if someone is going to feel remorse for that kind of violence, it would come sooner than a few days later. Probably their pitiful looks were just caused by regret at being caught.

Now, since we still know so little apart from what has already been reported and what the video clearly shows, we are free to speculate. I always try to look at both sides of every story, but in this case we have a whole lot more than two sides, sometimes I think we have an endlessly expanding multifaceted geometrical figure and the number of sides keeps increasing. So I thought I might try a thought experiment and make up a story for which I have no proof, but which may be true, for all I know. So here is little Brittany Hardcastle, a girl who just arrived in Polk County from Kentucky and never made friends easily. She had to grow up too fast and learned that she had to act tough to survive(yes, I can hear you sobbing already). Anyway, having few friends and feeling insecure she joins up with a group of tough girls to gain acceptance, a group that includes Mayes, Cooper, and maybe a few others. When these tough girls decided to target Victoria (at least we know now that BM and AC really did that) they go to BH to carry out the assault, and tell her untruths about Victoria and BH believes these stories and gets is filled with righteous anger. The rest we know. Sometimes gangs function like that, they go to the new kid or the outsider to carry out the dirty work and then the kid takes the fall when the cops show up. So there is my little story. Does it make sense? Is it true? Probably not, but can we prove it’s not at least partially true?

I hope nobody reads this and says. “Oh, now he’s been hypnotized by the charms of Ms. Hardcastle.” If you or Greg or Electronica or anyone else wants to pick my theory apart, I won’t mind, in fact that is why I made it up, because I just got home and I wanted to take my mind off things. The best way to refute it in my mind is that business of lack of remorse they keep bringing up.

Reply
December 9, 2008

gompertz

One final thought. If the lack of remorse is indicative of the kind of condition that would make a scientist say, “Aha! There’s the problem right there!” then after the punishment we should treat the disorder in a humane and civilized way.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Amyv

Garland – Have they reached a verdict in the case yet? I have been reallly busy and see bits and pieces on it. Very disturbing. Yes, it doesn’t seem to end.

We need to have new laws written a.s.a.p. on this type of bullying and its consequences. So these matters can be dealt with in a swift manner and justifiable punishment suitable to this time of crime.

Reply
December 9, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –

I am really at a lose as to what to say to you anymore. But, I will try to explain myself again.

First, I stated the girls all needed stiff punishment. I have never said 25 years in adults prison or advocated half of the harsher punishment other bloggers have state Here.
O.K. so on this we agree.

You advocated for juve. instead of adult prison. I also mentioned that may have been a better choice for some of these girls. You have expressed deep concern for these girls in adult prisoner which include possible death, jumping, etc. I have also agreed this is not acceptable punishment. Serving time for your crime yes. Further violence. No.

So we both agreed prison (adult) is not an acceptable punishment for all of these girls. O.k. so lets move on to juve. You yourself have offered this as an alternative for proper punishment. Then expressed your concern with these girls in that environment death, jumping, etc.

So my next suggestion was boot camp. Which I think would be the most beneficial of all of the choices. More strict supervision their in a much more controlled environment. Very regimented schedule, exercise, cleaning etc. which could teach discipline and self control. Again you brought up the fact that their could be the possibility of harm coming to these girls. Yes their have been very rare incidences of harm coming to adults and teens alike at boot camp. However, statistics very low.

I also stated if they were to go to a boot camp high school classes should be offered. Not as an option but as a requirement. So they would receive their high school diplomas if they followed the rules.

Now, house arrest was suggest. You also said this was an option and advocated. Then you stated it was cruel punishment. So, I am not quite sure how to respond to you.

Personal subject. Yes, I absolutely know without a doubt how it feels to be confined to the house. I was ill for a whole year and unable to leave my home. It is very rough. Their is no doubt about it. Although, my was not meant to be a punishment, it still had the same consequences. Boredom beyond belief and a longing for outside contact.

What I did learn from it on a positive note was to appreciate even the simipliest things in life. When I was well enough to leave the house I was able to look at things in a whole new light. Since, their was no option for treatment at that time for me, I learned things to make my ‘confined life better’. I turned more to comedies, books and blogging as stress relief.
I listened to music that was upbeat, watched shows that were light hearted and read books for entertainment and educational value.

So, although house arrest may seem unbearable to you, perhaps that might be the proper punishment after all. I just don’t know. It sure taught me the most importants things in life are family, friends and a good support system. Things that seemed like a huge crisis before became trivial. Ex: jealously, trash talking etc.

Yes, I was wrong to say that the same thing happen to these girls that happened to Victoria. Although, you yourself said you would rather have this happen to you once a week over a period of time than any of the other suggestions made.

So, bottom line no death threats, no jumping in retaliation or for humiliation. These are justs my views. I do like your statement Not quoting word for word that you have done this before to other girls and hope not to in the future. That is what I wish could be learned by teenagers everywhere.

Hope I have made myself clear. I really don’t know what else to say. Electronica – I truely do not know what the proper punishment is for this crime or any other including violence. You have made good points.

In General-I really do not feel that any of the mothers in this case owe an apology to the public. They did not commit the crime their daughters did. I can understand a mother wanting to stand by their daughters. I just don’t feel excuses help. No. Not directed towards this particular mother or family, but to all of these families in general.

Last note. Having trouble scrolling again. Someone brought up the fact of whether or not a non-violent offender having a violent offender April Cooper as a cell mate. Would that be fair to the teenager that perhaps was in their for shop lifting? Very interesting point. If we worry about these girls being in with violent offenders, could not the same be said about them?

Also, since a lot of the remorse or ability to feel empathy is subjective on all of our parts, who would be right? How do we judge each girl if not by instinct or gut feeling? I myself included. Is anyone of us willing to be the next possible victim or god forbid one of our kids? That is a really hard question to get past. I myself would say no.

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December 9, 2008

GregS

Gomp, I’m cold and calculated, but it doesn’t truly matter what kinda violent a person is. Violent is violent, and a threat is a threat all the same. We can analyze it all day but ultimately if someone is violent towards me then they are a threat and I don’t really think it matters what personality type they have.

Whether BH and AC feel remorse is important mostly for the victim. Victoria would be better off if they did feel remorse, because if they don’t then it puts all the weight and burden on her.

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December 9, 2008

gompertz

Greg, the kind of situation I was thinking of, is if someone takes offense at what you say, and confronts you immediately, it is easier to deal with that person, even if they are violent, in an open way. The person I describe as calculating will conceal the resentment and nurture it and plot revenge in secret. Then when you least expect it, the violent response is delivered in a premeditated way that takes you by surprise. That is one example, I have been lucky to survive that kind of surprise attack. Rather get the violence out in the open right away, fight it out if necessary but quickly over, if the person is emotional they are usually less dangerous. Anyway that has been my experience, others may have different experience. Very tired now.

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December 10, 2008

Phil

To Gomp and GregS
Gomp thanks for your reply .
i was more looking to get yours and Greg s opinion as it relates to Brit M She seemed to have a detached enjoyment . When she said “seveteen seconds left make it good ” there was no anger in her voice at all or the other sounds that don’t need translation to her concern about the lighting . .For myself i would rather hear I don’t know what made me so anggry as opposed to i don’t know why i enjoyed it . With what you guys have read does she have problems that are even harder to treat than the others . Also Brit M has avoided alot of the discussion that has been aimed at the others . Interested to hear what you think,

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December 10, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina Garcia is a good woman, her daughter has had the troubles of an average 16 year old girl in today’s world. I hope they have the strength to remain positive. They do face Due Process. I think her lawsuit is far and should be bargained out by Polk County. I also think it’s time for the suspects to face fair sentances. If they choice not to bargain, they will deserve their consequences.

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December 10, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina Garcia should get our utmost respect here. My name isn’t really Erik Johansson, oh under this log on I am Robert Stevens, that’s not me either. Christina has come here and talked openly about her most precious topic. She should be treated as a guess. I find it unfortunate that The Lindsays never reached out to their daughter’s SELECTED carekeepers. Christina made her mistakes in April, I think we should all now support her.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I think your analysis of B Mayes is correct. Probably less focus is placed on her because she is not actually in the video, except for the disturbing noises. That’s one reason I was hoping we would see more of the video, to better assess the degree of guilt in the physical beating. One point I was trying to determine when I asked Electronica iif Victoria stated the number of times AC hit her was this. If you say, i.e. “she hit me three times” does that mean three punches or three separate assaults consisting of numerous punches each. That would help me determine the seriousness of the participation of KH and BM in the actual beating. So if we had a statement from Victoria that said, for instance, “AC hit me five times” that would mean she was talking about five separate assaults and not just five punches, because the video shows clearly that AC hit many times more than five. So as for the participation of BM I agree that there is room for speculation but I tend to see her, as you do, as someone who enjoys violence a bit too much and as we now know, was very much in the middle of the trouble leading up to the beating. Since Cooper is younger, we would tend to see BM as taking the leading role.

Also the tears at the first hearing that some of us took to be a sign of remorse, and the Jesus pictures in her photobucket, that may have been an attempt to win sympathy, but that’s just speculation, and I hate to add “alleged” to every speculation. But it sure looks like she is capable of being manipulative and possibly was the real ringleader when all the facts are in. Remember, “possibly.”

Just a word about April Cooper hanging out with much older girls, I se nothing sinister or weird about that. She seems a little bigger than most girls her age, and in a group that values athletics and all kinds of physical interests that would make her acceptable. A 14 year old who can hit a ball as well as an 18 year old can play with the 18 year olds, that’s all.

But with Mayes we don’t have nearly as much evidence as with Hardcastle. The reason I made up that little story about Hardcastle was, I wanted to see how you would react to it. If you thought it was something I just dreamt up, you might see it one way, maybe boring and silly. If you thought it was something that Ms. Hardcastle’s mother (for example) would say if she came on this blog and tried to defend her daighter, would you still think it was simply boring and silly or would you react more strongly?

Anyway, I don’t think we can analyze Mayes conclusively here because we don’t have the visual evidence we do for the other two, Wish we had more. As we learned more about the trouble leading up to the beating she seems more guilty than she did before. Just those noises, though, she would have a lot of explaining to do on the witness stand and I think she would be as eager to go for a plea deal as the others.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

It doesn’t matter what the name is, I too believe that Christina should be treated as a guest here. Many don’t want to put themselves in her place and ask, what if my child were accused of something like that. I is terrible whether your child is the victim or perpetrator if you are the parents. I have known good people who took every effort to raise their children properly, only to have the child get in trouble with the law. Those good people go through their own personal hell and I don’t wish that on anyone. Christina showed great courage in posting here, and it seems some people simply can’t get past the image and see a person who feels real pain and is going through a very difficult time.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

To Greg: The question of Brittany Mayes and what the available evidence shows. As for the video all we have to go on is those noises, right? I was wondering whether there is any technology that enables scientists to analyze a voice and draw conclusions about that person’s psychological profile. If there is, this could be the time ti use it.

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December 10, 2008

Robert Stevens

I’ve spent the last few months adressing Christina Garcia at youtube under the user name mamiconrazon. Christina if you read this and that’s not you. Let me know, because then I made a fool of myself and would like to send you a few e-mails : ). FOR THOSE CLLING THE GARCIA/NICOLES WHITE TRASH. You are very wrong. I don’t support what happened 3/30/08. Mamiconrazon and I went at it for months. But back to the family. Christina Garcia has been a wonderful part of our community. She went through the difficulty of being married to a serviceman. The Garcia/Nicoles have VFWs. They are all good tax paying people. Christina’s mom is the sort of person you’d request to watch your child, if you felt needed, we could see that was Talisa Lindsay’s choice.

Christina is no different from all of you that post here. heck I think she was and maybe still is a Nancy Grace fan. OK before I get silly. I have a way of getting silly then really just being stupid.

My point is Christina has a beautiful family, and I hope they remain or return to what they were. Christina gave us great photos of herself and her wonderful family story at myspace. I hope when this is over she remains as kind and open as she was 3/29/08.

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December 10, 2008

Phil

To Robert Stevens
To me it just depends on what you mean by support . You can read my earlier blog to know i am not a fan of her actions . that being said i have said my persoal attack and can’t see myself doing the same again.However I will never support her trying to make money off of the pain and suffering that Victoria lindsy endured . She tried to get mercades on paid interviews ,Book deals and lawsuits those issues are still out there to be critisize and I will try to be more respectful in tone (thats for Gomp ,see I do listen) .I do not look at her as a guest on this blog but a participant and she to should turn down the retoric also (see her last blog to Amy V ).I also will not support her allegations about her daughters minimal invovement.you seem to know her personally therefore your support is probally needed to help her endure what she and her family has gone through . Why she would need support from complete strangers I do not know The part she has gone through because of Mercades actions she deserves support , She cannot be held responsible for that .The other critisims
i feel her actions have brought it on herself . I will strongly challange any view points where I feel like responding but in the same way i would to anybody else .
Gomp
One of the reasons for my last 2 questions to you and gregS is I believe with Brit M doing the video taping that makes her much more of a perticipant as resposible as Brit H
and April . That with the fact that she aslo perticipated in the hitting although not that much and with her demeanour during the assult to me is
has been understated especialy when compared to April .
To Amy
on the 8th you said Hi Phil – Talk to you about your comments later was there someting specific i said that you wanted to comment on or have you moved on to other thoughs about the case .Either way look forward to your resonses as always .(That’s probally because I almost always agree )

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

Greg, there may be a lot of factors involved in the kind of behavior we see in the video, in the case of those who do the violence as well as those who don’t. Some of those factors may be more subtle than others. I am thinking of the way people obey authority or engage in group behavior that would influence them to do things they wouldn’t do as individuals. I wonder if you think that something like Milgram’s experiments might be relevant here.

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December 10, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Phil.
Christina has 35 days to go. I live in New Jersey, I never meet her. I doubt very much I ever will. The way I see it, the poor woman has been through too much all ready. I wish I could coach her. I don’t like alot of her statements, either. However, she will over pay for every bad comment she has made. She’s %&amp^*ed because she wears her heart on her sleeve. I try to push The Power of Now onto her. She has 35 days to turn things around. It is sad that these 35 days have so much meaning to her. I can’t talk to her this long and hate her. Like I said she is a good person.

By the way I do hate making this post, like I said, she needs to think positively. At a point, we fan the fire. It’s my opinion, anyone in this story that remains in the circle of violence, will suffer consequences, and they will either be famous or infamous, right now they all control their own fate.

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December 10, 2008

GregS

gompertz “The person I describe as calculating will conceal the resentment and nurture it and plot revenge in secret. Then when you least expect it, the violent response is delivered in a premeditated way that takes you by surprise.”

Thats the point. The element of surprise is the best fighting tactic known to man, combined with stealth. Yes calculating individuals will get you when you least expect it, in the way you least expect it.

“fight it out if necessary but quickly over, if the person is emotional they are usually less dangerous. “ I wouldn’t call them less dangerous, but less disciplined and less well trained fighters aren’t going to think before they strike. I’m not the emotional kinda fighter, I fight to win, and I exploit every weakness of the enemy to acheive victory. I don’t like conflict but if pushed, I’m calculated and dangerous. The truth is, a lot of intelligent people are the calculated type. This is precisely why you don’t want to make a lot of smart people your enemy.

Phil Britney M is a sadist. I don’t see her as mentally ill. She is a run of the mill standard sadist who made gross noises on video tape.

Gomp thereis no technology nor will there ever be a technology which can analyze thought patterns by tone of voice. While it is technically possible to do it, it would be as useless as trying to analyze thought patterns by typing style. It would be too easy to fake the system and the system would be too prone to error to be useful in a court.

Gomp, the behavior of BH is not a case of group behavior. Maybe for the younger girls it was, but BH was the leader, the ring master, as we can see on the video she consciously chose to be cruel. And she was trying to get the other girls to join in.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

Greg, thank you for you answer. Apart from the probability that BM is a sadist, might we add a propensity for deception to the picture? From the reports of the prior incident at the bonfire, Mayes showed tendencies to violence toward the victim and collaborated with AC to make threats. But she is not there in the video incriminating herself, she is out of the picture directing events from behind the camera. Her noises can be interpreted as an attempt to encourage the others to violence and she did not foresee how that would be seen later on. Then she is the one who appears remorseful and though I cannot read her mind, I think most people would agree that it is synthetic remorse. These factors lead me to believe she may be good at concealing her feelings and motives, and maybe even concealing it from herself. I think it is important for a person seeking rehabilitation that they sincerely want to be cured. Once you get started down the road of deceiving yourself and others about your real nature it seems harder or impossible to even want to be helped. If these observations are correct (and we don’t know if they are) wouldn’t that give support to Phil’s hypothesis that she may be the most incorrigible one?

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December 10, 2008

christina garcia

Thanks V007…I appreciate your support but some people just won’t listen but as you know I am a strong woman and I will continue to say what I think, I don’t hide anything. The comment about me trying to get Mercades on paid interviews?? I sure would like a link to this stupid statment. I had to change my number because they were all calling me, coming to my mom’s house, following me around, leaving flowers, cards, all to try and get me to let Mercades do an interview and myself included. I turned them all down, so now what? If I wanted interviews, you all would’ve seen them on TV. If you’re speaking about Dr. Phil helping with the 3,300.00 bail money, well I had the house to put up but not the 3300, so I made a choice to do it. I am so sure if it was your daughter you would’ve let her rot right? As far as anything else, there is nothing!
I wanted to address the blog about the book idea, and come to some type of meeting of the minds, but how am I suppose to do that when I always have negativity? I was emailed and told that someone was addressing me in here, so I came to see what it was.
You think its ok that when Mercades was re arrested the deputy that came to get her promised me he would not bring her to Detective Newman, he leaves my house and meets Newman not at the substation as I thought but at a dam ball park, he rips her out of the car and makes her wear her sundress up over her panties until they get to Bartow? If you think she deserves that just because she didn’t stop a fight that she tried to warn Tori about? This is all crap, I am sorry for saying a bad word, but this is all very upsetting to me, what else do you want from Mercades? What would make things even for you? Blood? If things get any worse, I will be pushed into going to trial and not excepting anything. Why could’nt Grady Judd just have kept his dam mouth shut? Why did he have to give out home addresses, phone numbers, and air out a bunch of lies?? I feel cheated from being about to teach Mercades a lesson in life! I was cheated as her mother, I am stuck here, can’t anyone see this??

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December 10, 2008

Robert Stevens

Alot of people read what Christina is writing, and don’t really look at the complete pitcure. Maybe no one could see the complete pitcure at this moment. I hope not : ) It’d take a long time for me to explain why we should now hope for the best for all. To just stay on the topic of this comment board. In my opinion it is a good law suit. For those that strongly disagree, for now on comment online with your name and adress, and I mean your real one. No Bob S., etc.

To the Nicole/Garcia family, best wishes. Know your plead bargaining rights. Best of Luck.

Yeah plead bargain, sorry. Many of the comments and expectations of the Nicole family, are made by people that don’t understand. Heck I’ve been looking at it for a while, and I don’t completely understand. The family is going through a rough combination of 1.Criminal Charges and 2.Civil Suit, 3. 7 codefendants, and 4. The Media Portrayal. Each one could actually be used by an adversary to harm the other, all going against the accused. All 4 named by me, each harming, nothing of it is assistance to the suspects.

Like I commented earlier. They are good people. I hope some of you ease up on them.

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December 10, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Even if you spend hours on this blog, it would be hard to keep up with all of the comments.

I have not read them all yet but, wanted to comment on a view. First of all googled the song you mentioned. Absolutely, loved it. So many good points made it was incredible. I wish everyone would live by these assumptions instead of jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

Second, I found your scenario about B.H. being the new kid in town and a gang like mentality (not your exact words) very interesting and very feasible.

I have been accused of being hard on Mercades many times. I think each and everyone on these girls obviously had a very specific reason for being there.

Mercades not sure. Many issues their. She wanted Victoria out of her house perhaps, needed help with this issue. Then it was reported she was mad because Victoria owed her $4.00 (doubtful on this one) to much anger displayed for this one. Contact made between her and B.H. made approx. one week prior to incident after what seems to be a loss of contact between B.H. and M.N. for a period of time (not sure how long). Or perhaps, Mercades was the one trying to fight in? I am not sure of the purpose but, I do not believe she didn’t know this attack was going to happen. Real problem with her when Victoria stated “Mercades I thought you were my friend”. Mercades did nothing. I did not see fear in her. Sorry, if I offended anyone just taking one girl at a time.

Cara Murphy – easy one. I have no idea. We got little to no information about her or how she was involved in relation to these girls. Very disturbing interview when she said I didn’t think it was that bad at the time. She was not the only girl to make this comment. I am not sure why all charges were dropped against her.

Brittini Hardcastle – You brought up some very good points about her. What if she was the new girl trying to fit in? The only way she knew how was to use her brute strength to take care of what seems to be problems other girls had with Victoria. However, I do not think this girl acted out of blind rage. She was very cold and calculated. Using the key word to start the beating from April. Asking Victoria very specific questions and forcing her to answer them. Making sure she was pointing towards the video camera. Breaking long enough for others to jump in either verbaly or physically. Then step back in after. Pointing to each and every individual girl and referencing them with questions for Victoria followed my methodical and measured punishment with punches. The flurry at the end when she heard 17 seconds left make it good. Not sure who made that comment. Wow, this girl really has some severe emotional problems. I see to much control not out of control rage which is scarier. Perhaps she was the one egged on to take care of this problem?

Brittany Mayes – Victoria said she hit her so I believe her. Of course we all have stated her almost orgasmic pleasure over this beating was sickening and very, very troubling. Was she the one who was concerned about the lights? Was she the one that said 17 seconds. I believe it was her. Wow. Another truely disturbed individual. I do not know what her specific problem was with Victoria. Thier was one voice in the background doing a lot of egging on. I believe this was her. Once again extremely disturbing.

April Cooper – Her problem with Victoria definitely was over a boy. No doubt, the key word was a boys name to elicit her anger. I still don’t see how she back her blows. She was throwing them to rapidly for me to believe she could measure what type of blows she was inflicting. Young. Yes. Showing any kind of remorse. No. To me this girl was even more stoned faced and emotionless before the judge than B.H. She had some major boy jealousy issues with Victoria.

Kayla Hassel – Young yes. Afraid of B.H. I did not see that on the tape at all. Not for an instant. She had some major problems with Victoria and a boy was definitely involved. She also hit Victoria. She was also the one who wandered about cheerleading practice after being arrested. Once again remorse no. Seems to us her small size to her advantage when necessary. Almost as if B.H. provided her with enough protection to do severe psychological harm to Victoria and physical harm to.

I really did not want to rehash this. However, what if the scenario of B.H. being the one who was used to fit in is the true scenario. What if because of her violence, bulleying and ability to inflict the most harm was manipulated by these girls for their advantage?

Am I stricking up for her. No way. However, your scenario is highly interesting to me. For I believe you may have hit the nail on the head. Something, that I would have never thought of before. However, now seems to be extremely feasible. So maybe she was a pawn in this plan. Definitely something to think about. Sorry, if this is the case these girls are truely cold and calculating. Brings it to a different level.

Good observation Gompertz. Shed some new possibility on this case. Leaning more towards what they need psycologicaly than in specific terms of punishment alone.

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December 10, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv said…

“Mercades not sure. Many issues their. She wanted Victoria out of her house perhaps, needed help with this issue. Then it was reported she was mad because Victoria owed her $4.00 (doubtful on this one) to much anger displayed for this one. Contact made between her and B.H. made approx. one week prior to incident after what seems to be a loss of contact between B.H. and M.N. for a period of time (not sure how long). Or perhaps, Mercades was the one trying to fight in? I am not sure of the purpose but, I do not believe she didn’t know this attack was going to happen. Real problem with her when Victoria stated “Mercades I thought you were my friend”. Mercades did nothing. I did not see fear in her. Sorry, if I offended anyone just taking one girl at a time.”
Why do you continue to try and guess things that you clearly have no clue about? At this point things are so screwed up with the case that people read things like rumors and guessing ie. your little comments and take them as facts then form thier opinions, this is how the hate all got started. Are you trying to cause this to happen to my daughter? I am being sincere, not sarcastic or angry. If you want to go on about the facts and have your opinions fine, but please stop the guessing game, I am begging please just stop! And I doubt Gomp was trying to say that one of the girls ( Mercades according to your words of wisdom) had anything to do with forcing BH in some way to do that to Tori. I just can’t see him saying something so well….unintellegent.
Thanks

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December 10, 2008

Electronica

amy britti doesnt hit tori at all after that 17 seconds left call.

idk why ppl cant just go by whats on the vid its like theres some mass halucination i heard this and other stuff many times before it doesnt die.

and kayla wasnt mad over a boy if you listen kayla says tori promised to beat her ass so thats why shes angry now when tori says she has nothing against kayla. i think kayla was like you said you gonne beat me up and when theres a bigger girl than me who wants to fight you wimp out. its after the girls tell tori to fight one on one with britti or april but she says shes got nothing against them.

if like tori just got there i think it would be ok for kayla to say what she said but it was wrong to say it after she saw tori get beat up so badly and knew tori could get beat up even more.

i dont think kayla was afraid of britti but maybe she was afraid of losing a fight against tori. i dont think kayla fights much at all you can tell from the way she moves. so i think kayla was afraid but not the way she says and she wouldnt admit it anyway not even to herself.

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December 10, 2008

Electronica

and amy i said before juvie or boot camp is ok so im not sure whats the problem?

i just dont agree how long you say they should be there but i said its unfair but not cruel. like if ppl say send april to adult prison for five years i protest cause its cruel and real dangerous and way too unfair. when ppl say send april to juvie prison for 2 years i think its unfair but not like im gonne kill myself unfair and i dont think its cruel. so i dont protest i just disagree.

and amy i didnt say home arrest is too cruel i just said ppl dont realize how bad it can be when its for a long time. and you agree! oh and im sorry you was sick for so long. but now you know that 2 years of home arrest after 4 months of jail for britti isnt easy. and 9 months after 3 months of juvie prison for april is almost as bad i mean shes 14 id go crazy being stuck home for a almost a year. and sorry but i think its worse when your 14 than when your old think back when you were that age wouldnt it be even worse if you were stuck home sick for a year? idk but i think so.

so anyway i didnt say home arrest if too cruel why would i say put them on home arrest for so long? its hard but its not too cruel i mean if its like not for ever.

and amy i said id rather get beat like tori every week than be in prison with grownups for years. i wasnt talking about juvies or boot camps or home arrest!

and amy i didnt say i jumped anyone!!! i said i never jumped anyone i wouldnt do it!!!!

dissing someone to her face in front of her friends isnt the same as jumping. picking a fight isnt the same as jumping. what i was saying is maybe even picking a fight with a bully isnt right.

but anyway its good you dont really think its ok to start jumping those girls.

and you know its possible to beat up someone and not like risk injuring her but only if you just hit her arms and legs oh and maybe like really kick her behind. i could beat up april like that and shed be in pain for days maybe a week but not injured for sure. but only if she doesnt fight back of course if she does it could be bloodbath.

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December 10, 2008

Electronica

and amy like i said they dont put all the kids in the same juvies! theres diff kinds of juvies so you dont have a kid who skips chool too much with a kid who like broke someones head on purpose. that wouldnt be right and i dont think it happens. not sure about misdemener beatings though.

anyway i wouldnt worry much about april shes bigger but not much older but if i was in a cell with britti id worry shes much older and much much bigger. idk how bad she is but if she like cant control herself anymore and would really rail on me it could be real bad and unfair for sure. but like i said they dont put you in a cell with a much a older girl in juvies and they keep the school noshows away from those who beat up ppl and the worst girls i mean those who like stabbed or shot someone those girls are kept away from all the others. but in prison they put you with grownups who killed and murdered and raped and dont care your just 14. dont you think thats so much worse than getting stuck wth april or even britti?

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December 10, 2008

Scott

Amy, Kayla saying she was scared of Hardcastle is the funniest lie of all. And these teens all 8 of them arrested for Tori’s assault told one lie after another to the police. If they took lie detector tests the lie detector equipment would blow up! )

Amy, you made a good point about the psychological whipping Kayla was able to lay on Tori with Hardcastle by her side for protection. Ripping into Tori with Brittini by her side doling out blow after blow for Kayla was horrible to see. It was what Kayla was looking for. And for a 10th grader like Kayla to verbally rip and humiliate an 11th grader like Tori about to graduate high school a year early must have been sweet. Until she was arrested of course. But atleast Kayla felt bad about hitting Tori and stopped soon after she started. ) On the other hand April got to one up her friend Kayla by crushing Tori both emotionally and physically. The things 14 year old April called Tori and said to Tori were vicious and vile. But that wasn’t enough because she had to pummel Tori too. And she did. It must have been sweet for April the ninth grader to whip Tori the smart and allegedly smart mouthed 11 grader emotionally and physically and have it caught on tape for her friends to see. Until she was arrested then it probably wasn’t so sweet.

Gomp, one of the television interviews Tori did said April struck her 42 times in 12 seconds at the beginning of the assault! You watch the tape and count. Then later in the assault April jumps Tori again as Tori heads for the front door and hammers Tori on the shoulders and back over tens times in a few seconds. But atleast April wasn’t hitting Tori with all her might. She really was holding back some on her punches and smacks.

As for Brittany Mayes Gomp, she was the only one of the Infamous 8 to show any sorrow in court. Was that because she was caught or because Tori was seriously hurt? I hope both but don’t know. Yes Brittany’s noises on camera were upsetting and she did direct part of the assault on Tori. But we can be thankful she did not go after Tori physically the way Cooper and Hardcastle did. That would have been disastrous with the tremendous size and weight advantage Mayes had on Tori. I am hopeful Mayes will apologize publicly and to Tori after this is all over. I hope Kayla apologies to Tori as well. And the others too. But I bet they still blame Tori for thier being arrested.

Christina, it’s good to see you back. It’s a shame this case wasn’t resolved before the holidays so everyone could move on and have some peace and hope during the holiday season. My hope for Mercades is a just sentence then let her get started on moving on with her life.

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December 10, 2008

Amyv

POSTED BY GREG
” I just don&rsquot think emotion and gut feelings alone are an accurate measure of right and wrong.”

Greg I agree they can not be used alone but in combination with many other factors in this case. I believe emotion and gut feelings can serve you well in many situations. I like Phil have found these two factors very helpful in dealing with every day situations.

I do not however solve problems with just these two factored in. I also like to apply knowledge and facts. Since we know different individuals are left brain or right brain thinkers, perhaps a combination of the two is the true answer. As I do not think you can establish a set formula without these components factored in.

As simple for instance: you are coming up on yellow light why do you make the decision to go or stop. I believe everday activies like this can be applied to gut feeling. Sounds silly just a simple thought.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

When I wrote the little account about BH I had something specific in mind. I was trying to demonstrate how it is possible to make up a scenario quite different from the prevailing view, even if it is not supported by the evidence of the video. Now I ask myself what would be the reaction if, instead of seeing it as something someone just wrote as a speculation, it were something that the mother of BH were to post here and offer it as a true account of events. Would we be angry at her? Would we insult her? I really don’t know, but I wonder about my own reaction to it under those circumstances, given that my own anger on seeing the video was so much directed at her, just on what I and everyone else would see. So one could say that I was being, well, a bit “manipulative” in eliciting responses, and that is SO not like me. But I can find nothing in my story about BH that is refuted by the scant evidence we have of all the circumstances leading up to the beating.

So it is with Mercades, and when I defend her I elaborate on things we don’t know for sure, and these are things that would have happened before the beating. But the reaction is to say I am being hypnotized or whatever. What were the factors leading up to Mercades’ inaction in the video? These may have to do with the deep emotional turmoil she was going through because of the BF. I have never stated that Mercades was simply paralyzed with fear at that moment. I agree that the video does not show her to be in distress of any kind at that moment. I try to provide alternative scenarios that would show why she might have been led to assuming this attitude of apparent complacency which has cost her so much.

But these are just guesses on my part, and, as guesses, they are no better or worse than anyone else”s guesses, provided we all look at the same evidence. And yet, here is Christina offering us specific information and insights about these matters, and people immediately jump on her and insult her without, I believe, spending even a moment considering the possibility that what she says may actually fit the facts better than all our “educated guesses.”

Much has been made of Christina’s alleged motives in seeking to profit from this tragic event. Phil asked very cogently, why would she appear here knowing people will take the opportunity to vent their anger against her? Why indeed? If her motive is to make money, why come here and be insulted? Surely there are less confrontational ways to make money on this that don’t involve being attacked and insulted. How does appearing here help with the book when none of us here can contribute anything to the facts of this story the book would tell? Perhaps the blog operator has offered her a deal to be paid for her posts that I don’t know about? I really doubt that.

I think Christina is trying to offer us insights into these events that only she can provide. Phil points out that the things said here, bad as they are, don’t compare to many of the things that have been written elsewhere. and that is true. Much of this is very, very hurtful and sometimes one feels the need to speak out just to counter some of these attacks, perhaps it provides relief to do so. As for writing a book, many people write books and even the successful ones don’t always make the author rich and famous. So I don’t see a lot to profit from. It just isn’t worth all the pain.

More to say later.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

To Amy, I just want to add that you make a lot of good points which I want to take up later. Carrie Underwood is truly fantastic.

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December 10, 2008

Phil

My 2 cents here it goes .Christina how can you say she didn’t know something was going to happen but she warned Victoria not to go in because some thing might happen . It can’t be both so a direct question which one was it . This is the corner stone to Mercades defence . If Now with the new information about Brit M and April from the week before the attack an truley amazing coincidense for all those people with a grudge against Victoria to be assembles in one place . That with Victoria’s testimoy about all the text messages prior to her arrival and to me that is evidence not speculation Plus her comment that If Victoria didn,t change her attitude then Brit H is going to beat her up and Mercades was not going to stop it . This to me means she could of stopped it knew it was going to happen and didn’t . There is no evidence of either Mercades and Kayla being scared on the tape but Christina this blog is for speculation and thats probally not going to change
My comment about paid interviews had nothing to do with the Dr phil interviw bit when Mercades lawyer was trying to get her arrest conditions reduced one of the request was to travell out of state to do interviews This i believe is part of the public record .
I will once again have to agree with Gomp . You are very brave to come on this post .The rest of us can hide behind our anominoty and you cannot .You have given this blog an insight that is apperciated .I am sorry that you have to read all the things that get said here ,some of them are anything but flattering .For my part i would like to sincerly apoligise for the hurtful things i have directed at you in my post .Again as Gomp and GredS have pointed out every body should be respected here and I certainly did not do this . i do not want blood where your daughter is concerned i do want her to be sentenced for what she is responsible for . We obviously disagree with what that responsibility is . I will go back to my first question Christina how can you say she didn’t know something was going to happen but she warned Victoria not to go in because some thing might happen . It can’t be both so a direct question which one was it .

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December 10, 2008

Phil

Amy
Have to agree again with your take on kayla .If you go back and watch the tape where Victoria takes that brutal hitand Brit M is making those sounds you can see Kayla in the background with a big grin ..Still with her blaming Brit H like she did she had better hope that Brit H is going to abide to whatever conditions she gets .
GregS appreciate your response to my BritM question . Is the fact that she acted out of some sort of pleasure rather than anger make it easier or harder to figure out a suitable punishment for her actions ‘.
I doubt that we will hear her saying that she was afaid of Brit H

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December 10, 2008

GregS

Amyv, gut feeling is like talent, when you don’t have enough time to think it through, you can rely on talent(gut feelings)and be right most of the time.

The same with a basketball star who has talent, they might be all off balance and take a shot from half court with 5 seconds left and somehow it might still go in. But this is not the same as seeing it’s a long shot and passing the ball to the guy right under the basket for the slam dunk.

I go for the slam dunk to get my points.

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December 10, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – Yes house arrest would be difficult. Also, believe it or not I do remember very well how it was to be fourteen. Someday, when you get older you will realize that part of you never leaves your teenage years. You can remember them like it was yesterday.

What I see and fear for teenagers is you are living in a much harsher environment then what a lot of us were exposed to. Teenage years can be some of the most difficult and joyful of your lives. So, my true goal here is to allow teenagers not to have to face additional stressors that are totally unnecessary. Believe me life is tough enough.

When you get older and face things such as death of a loved one or illnesses of friends and family you will realize what is truely difficult. These things WILL be totally out of your control.

You will have to work and encounter people who will make you angry. However, you will not be able to confront everyone in these environments you feel disrespects you. For just as their is cruelty and disrespect in schools, etc. so their will be in a work place.

You have to learn a coping mechanism besides always jumping back verbaly and definitely never any physical contact. You will need to find a diplomatic way of solving problems and Electronica it is not always easy. Believe me.

As for house arrest at 14 or illness resulting in home confinement (for lack of a better term) both are equally as tough. As an adult you have to worry about the lack of income, medical bills, mortgage payments, etc. Add that on top of being confined and it is truely a miserable experience.

However, it also can make you a much stronger person. You will have to find ways to fight off loneliness, boredom and stress. When you are able to get back out into the real world, you will appreciate more what is important and what you can let slide.

Hope I am making sense El. If these girls do receive this punishment maybe these are the strongest lessons you can learn and the ones that they need to. Bottom line life is tough enough. Not everyone is going to respect you or like you no matter how hard you try. So walk away. It does not make you a coward. It shows a maturity placing you above peoples ability to entice you into confrontation.

Electronica – I do not back away from blatant rudeness or disagreeing. I can hold my own with the best of them. But, I have learned to do it when it is necessary. Not when it is trivial things said behind my back that I usually just laugh off. Not worth my time or waste of my energy. I also get along well with others because, I do not feel it necessary to say things behind their back. If I have an issue with someone I will openly say it to their face and see if we can reason it out.

No matter what the sentence handed down or plead out, school is very important. Education is truely a necessity and college I highly encourage. Especially with the rough economic times you will be meet with in the future.

Don’t mean to lecture. I guess you can tell I am a mom. lol. I really just wish we could help teenagers more so that fighting is not a necessary way of life. Violent crime is not acceptable for adults and is not acceptable for teenagers. I just know the system we have in place right now is not working. No consequences and their will be no changes in behavior. This does not prepare you to face adult hood.

Sorry if I used the word jumped with you. Sometimes, I just get the terminology wrong. I never meant to imply you were every involved in something like this. However, I do see this as a much more serious crime than you do. But, that is o.k. We can disagree on somethings without being unable to communicate. Hope I am getting my point across.

I feel like I repeat this over and over again. I never said these girls deserve life (ridiculous), I never said 25 years in jail (ridiculous). Death threats absolutely should not be tolerated. I never said I hated them and I never said they were evil. The law is they commited a crime. So, some kind of punishment must be applied.

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December 10, 2008

GregS

Phil I think BM acted out of pleasure. A lot of people like looking at girls fight, so thats not really something unusual that the person filming it is someone who likes watching girls fight.

I do think it was wrong of her to like that specific situation, because Victoria wasn’t fighting back so that would mean she’s a really extreme kinda sadist.

If Victoria were to fight back it wouldn’t have been so inappropriate, but because she wasn’t fighting back, it was and looked sick to people listening.

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December 10, 2008

Phil

AmyV
This case has gone on way to long
we go around in circles on this blog no date set. .Murders that have happened since have gone to trial. I don’t know who is to blame the defense or the prosicution but to me the proscucutors have dropped the ball big time if they plead this down after the courts decided the defendants were to be tried as adults.
The longer they wait the better i believe it will be for the defense . The only thing I think it can happen is that any plea deal may have to be agreed by all and if that dosen’t happen than it goes to trial which is the only way i see the defendants getting a fair punishment for thier actions . I just do not see house arrest as a suitable punishment for any of these girls excepting mayby Kalya and to me that is still a big mayby.

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December 10, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – If you were trying to be manipulative with your comment you did an excellent job. I think you brought up a very interesting scenario.

I spoke of each girl with the same consideration. Once again did not single one specific girl out. If Ms. Hardcastle were to come on this post and give this scenario. I would give it consideration. I would as factual as possible state why I feel her daughters punishment should be the most severe. I have no problem with an open dialogue as long as I do not see implied (subtely or otherwise) offensive statements against the victim.

However, since I do not visit other sites, I do not think the other mothers are blogging. Please correct me anyone if I am wrong. I am sure Ms. Hardcastle does have her hands full with the upcoming trial. Perhaps she and the mothers of the other girls are to busy with these issues.

The statements I made about each girl were as factful as I could make them. If necessary I can pull them up from various reports and we can go over each point. Victims statement, police reports, etc.

“And I doubt Gomp was trying to say that one of the girls ( Mercades according to your words of wisdom) had anything to do with forcing BH in some way to do that to Tori. I just can&rsquot see him saying something so well&hellip.unintellegent.”

Feel free to cut and paste anywhere in my comment that stated Mercades or anyone ‘forced’ B.H. to do anything. Reread my post it is not their. I am sure Gompertz would never have implied that. Just as I wisely would not have implied something such unintelligent.

Phil – Not sure what I wanted to respond to in on that particular date. So many issues brought up it is hard to keep up. I once again agree with your two previous post. Good question being brought forth will be curious to hear from a knowledgeable source what the answer is.

I have a question of my own to anyone in general. I have thought from day one that the news media needed to get the facts straight about the ‘ring leader’. I certainly never thought or stated it was Mercades. However, everyone has been in agreement that the ‘ringleader’ is Brittini Hardcastle. Their has been much debate over whether this attack was planned or these girls coincidentally were all at the house, with a camera when the fight broke out. O.K. sorry we have already established it was not a fight since the victim did not strike back.

So, if this was an unplanned attack, their would be no ring leader. That would imply someone was in charge. You would not need such a person if it became a heated argument that got out of control.

If Mercades was placed in a police car in such a dispicable manner I truly hope the FBI was called in to investigate. She in no way, shape or form would deserve anything like the treatment she was given. I will be interested to know when the police reports filed against this officer come out in the civil trial what type of disciplinary action has been taken.

Here is where I will back up my words. This officer made Mercades a victim. Please lead me to the site were I can get the report filed on this incident. Because, if this police officer is not fired for what I would consider a lewd act on a minor, I will myself start a campagin to see that justice is served for Mercades. I am absolutely sincere about this as I do not take actions like that lightly. This officer deserves to be punished.

I know arrest records, reports filed, etc. differ from county to county. Polk county records are free and open to the public on the internet. My county is not. Since, these are where the addresses of these girls came from that is a law that ought to be changed. I really was shocked that these are so readily accessible to the public. Especially, with minors. So, I do not think that would qualify as a legal action against one person, however surely needs to be addressed so that this information is sealed in the future.

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December 10, 2008

Amyv

Phil – Thank you for your comment. ‘I do not look at her as a guest on this blog but a participant and she to should turn down the retoric also (see her last blog to Amy V ).’

My opinion may not always be right, but I stand by my beliefs based on the facts of this case. I wil not waiver unless I see factual evidence to the contrary.

I have been called some very ugly things by this mother. My mothering skills have been attacked.
I chose not to respond because these opinions truely do not matter to me. I have wonderd since I am also a participant on this post, why I am not entitled to the same courtesies demanded by others for her.

However, as I stated before I am not here to debate with one particular person. That has truely been proven to be a waste of my time.
So, I have chosen to “lady up” as I perfer to
call it and simply ignore such statements.

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December 10, 2008

gompertz

Amy, sorry I didn’t have time to get to all the issues I wanted to raise here so I’ll ficus on this. As for my story about BH, actually it’s something I have thought about for a while, and I’ll tell you how that started. When this case first appeared in early April, the video was played all the time. I didn’t own a computer yet but Nancy Grace kept playing it for a whole hour at a time, and then they replayed Nancy Grace all through the night and I would sit up and watch it over and over. And the more I watched the more angry I got. Even though I am in good health I could feel my heart pounding so much I thought I would get a heart attack. I would watch the girl in the pink pants, wasn’t even sure of the name, and just visualize the horrible things I would like to do to her. And I began to realize that I was going crazy and only harming myself, physically and mentally. Like you, I can be very emotional at times, and what better excuse for getting emotional than this. My friends have often said I have so much rage in me it scares them, and it scares me too. And that is not incompatible with Buddhist compassion, because the energy of rage and hate is the same energy as the energy of love and compassion, only it is transformed by reflection and meditation. I don’t say this to preach, I only say that I realized that my own rage had to undergo a process of change for my good.

Then I saw my own rage and Brittani Hardcastle’s rage were not all that different. I have had many years to work on my rage, not always successfully and this girl is very young, so I stopped thinking I had a right to judge her for what she did. Not that it lessens the guilt of what she did, only that I could not judge her, and I was not the one who could either condemn or forgive her, only Victoria has that right.

I started seeing the rage as something that could be transformed. I looked at the video more reflectively and thought, this is the energy of hate that can be transformed into love. This may sound really crazy, but I started to see Ms Hardcastle’s rage as, believe it or not, as a cry for love. Her words, “why don’t you like _______?” now seemed to say, “Why don’t you like me?” And they were not addressed at the poor girl in front of her, but at someone else in her past who had hurt her in some way. Is this story true? Of course I don’t know. But just the thought that it might be helped me feel less angry and then I could sleep more peacefully and you know how important sleep is. If my anger could be transformed into compassion then why not hers?

Please understand that in no way do I minimize the evil of the deed. I remember my nun, the one who beat me the most in school, saying “hate the sin, love the sinner.” That is what I try to do. I see no reason to deny that BH may have serious emotional problems, perhaps her lack of remorse is really indicative of a fundamental absence of ability to become better. But human beings are very complex and I don’t think I can set a limit on what we can expect. So anyway I thought it worth a try to look at some possibilities that we haven’t put out before.

Still it seems we must identify someone as the source of the evil. I have always found that, when you have a group acting in an aggressive way, whether physically or verbally, you can trace it to one or two instigators. Maybe the latest revelations point to Mayes and Cooper as the ones who started the trouble. But then again maybe not. So hopefully we will find out soon, and I think the case is important enough to warrant our continued attention. I think the aftermath of this will be with us for a long, long time. I just had this thought: remember Amy Fischer? That was about 15 years ago, but she still makes the front pages of the New York Post once in a while. And this case is so much bigger and complicated than the Amy Fischer thing. So I have said a lot here. Just want to add I was very happy with your post to Electronica, you said a lot of things that I think are good for her to consider. Also I dont think it was fair that someone on the other post questioned her motives for holding the views she has. Once we start questioning people’s motives here, where does it stop? Well, this post is already too long so I’ll stop now, and I’m looking forward to hear what you think.

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December 11, 2008

christina garcia

oh Phil, I will answer this one last time hon, This was not a planned ordeal, of course Mercades knew they didn’t get along, Mercades allowed her a guided way into the home for her things, when they were back outside and Tori wanted to stay ( for whatever reason) Mercades warned her you know those girls are in there and you guys don’t like eachother, and not only that you have said many things about them. This is no way means that Mercades knew it was a plan of some sort or that there was a plan.

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December 11, 2008

christina garcia

Just for the record, I fired the idiot lawyer that asked her house arrest be lifted for out of state interviews, it was very innappropriate and I was ambarressed. That man also advised us to do something highly illegal that I just can’t mention on here, but it was going to be in my book, a book that after all negativity is gone here I wish to talk to you guys about. And thank you for the apoligy, its well noted and appreciated.

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December 11, 2008

GregS

Christina what about the text msgs that were reported to have been sent to Tori telling her to get home soon? The police say Mercades lured her to the house.

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December 11, 2008

christina garcia

Mercades did not have her phone, when Tori called her phone BH answered the phone and told tori Mercades didn’t want to talk to her, and it is also stated by the victim that when she called back they hung up on her. Look, I wasn’t there, so I can’t swear by anything, but even the victim’s statements say BH ended up having Mercades’ phone and not Mercades, also you can see if the video that KH has Mercades’ phone texting somebody. I believe earlier in the day Mercades and Tori might have been argueing about Tori needing to find another place to stay, but please look deeper into the discovery packet, you will see the victim later says that she found out BH was texting her and not Mercades.

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December 11, 2008

christina garcia

And I was answering the text question to Gregs, not the other person that hates me. And how does one lure you to a house you are suppose to be living in anyway? Newman asked Tori why were you calling Mercades anyway? Tori replied, to let her know I was on my way home” Judd just plain out LIED, its all in the discovery, just read it, I know its alot of papers, but it would help being that you are so interested in the case.

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December 11, 2008

Phil

To Christina .Gomp and GregS
When i will be replying to Christina it will be like i was responing to any other statement made by others . i will refrain from making derogitory statesment about Mercades you must however be prepared to here her character discussed as it relates to her actions and lack of actions and and what some of us believe had legal resonsibilitys as well as moral responsibiltys . If you look at the last discussions of April and Britnay H and Britni M .We discussed whether tey were Pyscpaths or Sadist ring leader or bully or weather any type of counciling would even help people who could do such a thing and imean the whole thing from beginning to end .
To Gomp and GregS mostly but to every one else should that change in regards to Mecades because Christina post her views here.

To Christina i am speaking to you as a father . It is Dec 11 .Christmas is 2 weeks away .You should try to put this case away for awhile you have all had such a terriible year that has already excacted a price that is difficult for me to imagine .You have 2 children a mother and all you hold dear that must despertly need you especially during this Christmas
season .Go do what we all try to do on the holidays .Try to give them the best Christmas possible .You are to close to this not to be affected by what you will read here . It will not help serve you well at this time of year .Christmas is a time to celebrate something purer than what gets discussed here .

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December 11, 2008

christina garcia

you are so right :*( I can’t pull myself away, but I will try my hardest. Thank you

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December 11, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Amyv, others that argue with Christina Garcia, and trolls.

For the Trolls please read and honestly answer the question that I am leading to. I’m not happy asking it. I admit the day may come that I’ll meet Britiney Mayes and regret asking this question.

I don’t recall seeing alot of trolling here. Christina Garcia does come here. Her online history is spectacular. She is an open person, she shared photos of her family, that would make Norman Rockwell envious.

So why do I request all to leave her alone, or take her with a grain of salt. Real simple, this is the hardest point of her life. You won’t bash her in a way that no one else has bashed her. Because her daughter’s bacon is on the line, she lives with her errors more then she would if it was her own bacon on the line.

Christina is doing all that is natural, her whole family is in trouble and she is doing all she could she is showing her fangs.

She isn’t denying she made mistakes. To really look at the complete pitcure, there was nothing that could be done where an error wasn’t made. So now I say “Don’t 2nd guess her.”

For 33 days we should treat her as a member of our community, that is going through hell. I think if we are honest, we’d admit if she was on TV at 8PM tomorrow, we would watch her. I hope to see her one day and say “I was Robert Stevens, at Mycrimespace.” and exchange pleasent conversation.

Ok back to the trolls. This is what christina’s family has been through, and I am excluding what is questionable, which I am sure some is true. After the beating, her complete family info is ALL out there, her and all parties do share the infamous details, because a few celebrated the beating they all did, because a parent made a bone headed statement they all did. So from April1st to whenever you read this The 8, have been abused for every move they made.

6 solid months of the whole world looking down at you. Didn’t all this start because Britiney mayes could say enough was enough in humilating Victoria Lindsay.

So here’s the question. IF, YOU ARE STILL MAKING COMMENTS TO UPSET CHRISTINA GARCIA HERE, HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT FROM BRITINEY MAYES?

Remember Christina does come here and treat us as friends. For 33 days let’s support her. January 21st if nothing defestating happens to her, then we could go back to bickering. I asked this because she is going through extraordinary problems. I would need a perscription. It is time to be helpful with her.

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December 11, 2008

gompertz

Only time for one short statement. Phil, the presence of Christina here need not make us change our views, but I think we should be moved to expand our perspective as to possible interpretations of events based on the views she has expressed. In the early posts almost everyone was convinced that they knew enough about the case to make all sorts of statements from a position of moral certainty and, if nothing else has been learned, I think we can no longer be sufficiently certain to voice condemnation as vigorously as before.

That is the point of my long digressions about Brittani Hardcastle, and about my own state of minds in reacting to it. I imagined a scenario in which Ms Hardcastle’s behavior could be interpreted in ways that might lead us away from condemantion. Clearly she was the most violent and the most blameworthy on the video. And my scenario, if true, doesn’t alter anything as to the legal matter of punishment. All I was trying to do was show that even in the case of someone committing a very violent act we can modify our reactions. How much more should we be careful in condemning someone like Mercades, whose participation is so unclear.

Note that I am speaking of our reactions, and not to the video itself and its implications. And I think it is interesting to look at those reactions because most of those who post here have nothing to offer except their reactions, and those reactions, while valuable, are not the whole story. Got to go now, back later.

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December 11, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina do make the most of your holidays. When the most negative thoughts cross your mind do have faith in human nature and realize those that wish to harm you could go too far. they’d be where you are, but with not nearly as much strength.

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December 11, 2008

Phil

To Gomp It really had nothing to do with your storey about Brit h conjecture as it mayby not a bad attempt at profiling ‘the point being made is if any of these girls mother gets on this type of blogs they are going to see alot of unflattering things said about thier children sometimes just based on an ideas or one remark made out of many .It could be for any reason the person making the blog . It in my opinion is impossible to speak freely about the situation and not say hurtful things . Our discussion about Brit H being a physcopath would have been hurtful to Mrs H if she were on this blog . Even if i do not see that as a personal attack.

What is trolling
Robert Stevens
Whats this about those days you keep mentioning .

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December 11, 2008

Robert Stevens

Trolling would be, commenting with the goal to hurt someone. Most often used at The Delphi Forums.

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December 11, 2008

Robert Stevens

The Term trolling used at Delphi, not trolling itself.

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December 11, 2008

Phil

Robert Stevens
thanks for the reply
Then it can happen here to be sure but this is a pretty good place to share your opinions but prepared to be chalenged and in diferent ways .
Could you tell me what you meant with the days Christina has left
pretty cryptic

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December 11, 2008

Robert Stevens

Phil thank you for asking. I am embarassed. I want to send the young woman a gift. I’m so paranoid. Yes I have her adress. You know Phil she does have me online making bad comments towards her. I worry she don’t really forgive me. Boy you could say I really set myself up. I didn’t think the days left could be cryptic.

OK Days left is until January 20th, most likely the last pre-trial hearing. I really believe until 1/20/09 we should all be respectful to Christina. Also realize some unpopular ways are due to leagle terms such as “Consciousness of Guilt”.

I didn’t do this on purpose, but sometimes I may have brought her down with my talk of Accomplice Liability. I’m not a fan of Accomplice Liability, that and other things have caused me to e-mail her possible 100 times requesting her to do her best at making a plead bargain. Some of my constant e-mailing to her, may have caused her to best testy. I didn’t mean harm, she is only human though.

It may appear to be fear that has lead me to sing her appraisals here, it really isn’t. I have looked into her and her family, ok I saw her myspace page. I really regret alot of what I commented about her online. If you go to that myspace page you’ll see I am not exagerating. Each time I lookat that page I find another detail, that makes me regret my ill statements towards her.

Ok we discussed the case here and other places. We can continue, let’s just try to be on her side, or at the least respect her and understand her in her situation.

I really believe when this is over, my view of Christina Garcia will be proven correct. Phil, I think you’ll agree right now this young woman needs to be positive. Me being to paranoid to send her a gift does not help : ( .

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December 11, 2008

Amyv

Phil -My understanding of trolling is that it is jumping from blog to blog making negative comments. Maybe I should look at other blogs to see who is truly trollng. As Far as I know no one here.

I don’t visit any other sites. Perhaps I should just to see who on here has so much free time their hands that they can keep up with all of blogs. I certainly do not. I work, have a daughter to raise and am dealing with a terminally ill father.

Since the only thing new on this blog is the information provided that Mercades was abused by a police officer, that is what I will try to look to look up information on.

Please do not question my motives on this issue they are plan and simple. I will repeat myself again. If this girl was treated in what I see as a sexually inppropriate manner. Someone definitely needs to pay.The officer must be taken off the force. period.

This is a danger to any teenage girl out their and is truely a threat to their safety. So, I have asked for the police report filed to press charges against this officer be made available. If he was not fired on the spot then, Internal affairs needs to be involved. He truel is a danger to all women.

So I will leave now and try to find these reports as I feel that is a major issue at hand. I really don’t think anyone can argue that point. Therefore, if I did ‘hate’ Mercades. Why would I care.

I would care because then she is a victim. I have always stated I am an advocate for victims right. So I will defend her as I have Victoria.

Robert Stevens -I already know what you think about me and anyone that has blogged with me all these months already willl know that I don’t really care.

I am not saying this to be angry with someone who agrees with Garcia. However, if you don’t know her, some of your remarks are strange to me. I am sure if you disagree with me you will let me know.

It sounds excessive that you have e-mailed her 100 times. Some of your remarks sound more like a type of infatuaton with her than defending her. To me someone I knew from blogging only making some of your remarks would be kind of scarey.
You seem to have an abnormal need for her to like you.

Your emotional support of course is what you feel should be offered at this time. Saying you know where she lives and are paranoid to send her a gift, seems a little to personal for comfort.
That is what I would think if I were her. To many safety issue with that one.

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December 11, 2008

Phil

Well Steven Don.t really want to comment on any gift giving especially during the christmas season but to comment that a harsh opinion here against Christina makes anyone equal to Brit M is ridiculous. Nobody that I know on this blog Voideo taped an assult helped with the beating the kidnapping and humiliation of a peer .(Least that i kwow of ) .You single out Amy V in pictular read all her blogs on the earlier threads as well as this one.Look at the responses given by Christina and the ones given by Amy V . Look at the title of this thread . If you have and Amy V was who you were comparing to Brit m than you have said worse than anybody here .
AmyV I kwow you can handle yourself sorry but your meanest replys to Christina were mostly in line with what has been stated elewhere and again we should all have a certain ammount of freedom and Chritina gave as good as she got .

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December 11, 2008

Amyv

I have for quite some time refrainned from making any remarks concerning Christina Garcia.
Or responding to personal attacks on me.

I specifically asked her to cut and paste where I made the following comment. ” Gomp was trying to say that one of the girls ( Mercades according to your words of wisdom) had anything to do with forcing BH in some way to do that to Tori. I just can&rsquot see him saying something so well&hellip.unintellegent.” I never said it. no repy was given. Because it was not their to find. So just as Gomp. would not say anything something so well…unintelligent”(come on Christinia you know that is a jab”).

“things are so screwed up with the case that people read things like rumors and guessing ie. your little comments and take them as facts then form thier opinions, this is how the hate all got started. are you trying to make this happen to my daughter”. Guessing would be blaming hate on me. Get your facts straight at the very beginning if their was hate started, was I the one to blog these girls comments of hate. No. That is a fact. I have nothing to do with what has happened or will happen to your daughter.

I have never said I hated anyone on this post feel free once again in a futile attempt with no response to find a blog where I said I hated anyone. Not there. That is a fact.

Next Amy&hellipAs everyone knows on here I am no longer a poster on this blog, the only thing that was said or asked is would this be fair, why must you write all these ugly things about my kid and I? All of your blahs have been thrown out the window over and over on here and through the evidence. Why couldn&rsquot you simply have replied yes you think it would be fair just because of the ex case? ( BTW, you would never be allowed on a jury with your mentality) I think what he was trying to ask is how could the ones that did the hitting get offf easier than a person who did not hit anyone and warned her not to go inside. I don&rsquot think he asked you to write a book about how and why you hate Mercades and I. And please don&rsquot insult me with your &rdquo Oh, I don&rsquot hate you or your daughter&rdquo because its BS and we all know that. Woman up!

Christinia – You woman up. I have not seen my ‘blahs’ disproven over and over again (or thrown out the window, because of evidence). You can not example away the tape hon. Also, lol about the book. Since I have never stated this why would I possibly want to write a book about it. That is more along your line of thinking.
As for BS what FACTS do you base this one because, I do not agree with your actions of bashing the victim. Don’t even try to say you haven’t you have done it again. Of course when stuble remarks are addressed to you, once again no response is given. Can’t defend what is obvious. So just let them keep riding.

“I wanted to address the blog about the book idea, and come to some type of meeting of the minds, but how am I suppose to do that when I always have negativity? I was emailed and told that someone was addressing me in here, so I came to see what it was.”

You call me a pitiful excuse of a woman. Thank you for the compliment. Since I always consider the source. You feel sorry for my daughter. She does not need your pity. Although, your daughter may truely need ours.

If you are so concerned that your health is so badly affected. Get off the D*** computer, spend some time with your daughter. Stop trying to push your book deal. A lot more being said about your book than what you are doing to support your daughter right now. Get your priorities in order. Or perhaps you have already shown them.

If you are trying to gain support for your daughter on this post, why is most your concerns about what is being said about you.
People have truely softened on your daughter. So stop trying to gain sympathy for yourself.

Also, take care of the officer that did these horrific things to your daughter. Since, you said you have no trouble because you are messing with Christinia Garcia when sueing the sheriff, I would sincerely hope you would go after the attacker of your daughter with a venegence.

This would give me much more cause to file a law suit against this officer and demand justice. Please show us where you plan to take further action against your daughter. It is dispicable and demands your full attention. So show a police report. Defend your daughter against this horrible man. Because, she truely needs your help with this one. Not onel your damn book deal.

Have at it Gompertz. I have done an experiment of my own and watched to see if you find these extremely insulting comments about me appropriate, not one word from you. Even though the word manipulative comes up on your post to defend this woman over and over again. I said that a long time ago. Have not since then. So that would still be an emotional issue for you. Not attacking you. Just not quite sure why it would be o.k. for horrible things to be directed towards me.

Not that I require your support or defense. I can more than handle my own against this woman. I do support her daughter. Would never even put her in a scenario again. Let the courts deal with that issue. Since, after all none of us have all the real evidence. Although, some base facts on information given by individuals. I choose to base my on the tape, victims reports. Not on the word s of a woman who will demand respect for herself and then show absolutely none in return.

You baited Christinia and I bite. But as Phil stated about you I will not make comments and run. Strength runs extremely deep through me as well.

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December 11, 2008

Amyv

Phil – Yes that comment was truely directed at me. As many other distasteful and hateful ones.
I first choose to ignore them all. Then, started wondering why every word about Christinia had to be measured. However, anything acceptable from her. I am sure you will see from my previouse post this courtesy will no longer be extended by me.

If people choose to support her fine. However, if that is all this blog has turned into we are missing the major point. The case should have been long over by now. Good question about lifting of restrictions for traveling purposes. Also very good response from Christinia. Only one question. Was it not stated in an earlier post by Christinia herself that Mercades d*** lawyer would not even let her talk to Mercades about case issues. However, some how now she has fired him. This was never metioned before when she was stating she hoped Mercades lawyers was not bashing Victoria as a defense. Why was he not fired then? Way to much stuff flying around on this post for me. I need some consistent common sense answers.

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December 12, 2008

Phil

Even if she fired thier lawyer He went into court representing Mercades and and asking to be able to go out of state to do interviews .If they were that unhappy with thier lawyer going for that condition they aginn should have stopped it .Again by the response of Christina then it was her lawyers fault and not thiers . This i find is an ever recurring defence with this family So at this point making money off of Victorias beating was on the agenda . .That along with book ideas and Lawsuits has gone form being a parent to one of the accuses to a major player in this case . It is hard to not to comment on her role in this when these things are part of the public record.I will never accept any scenerio where Christina or her family receiving money from this tradgey as being morally proper .

I would like to comment on the whole who had the cellphone debate later when I can think a little clearer .

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

Just for everyone’s information, take a look at the times I blog on here. Yeah, the times during the week are between 8 and 3 : ) the times my kids are in school, I refuse to argue with this sorry excuse for a woman about any other blahs. Only this.
I am acually open to other’s point of views on the book situation. Look, I mainly want to get my side out there, why do I say my side and not Mercades side? It’s simple, I am sure there are things that I will have in it that she would probably not be flattered by. I don’t even want to know about prescious little Amy’s opinion. But others are welcome, so here it is…what if I decide not to publish anything? What if I find out how to make a private kind of blog and I will write what I have so far, and as I add you may read it? The reason why I say private is only so PCSO doesn’t see it. I have to get my feelings out, there is so much that people just don’t know or understand. Phil, you’re right I do give as good as I get. But at times maybe people see something they just can’t keep quiet about. And I don’t get too many here that comes to my defense, so please forgive me if I bast in it for a minute. Thanks to everyone that has wished me a Merry Christmas and is guenuinly concerned for my family. Now, it looks like the attorney won’t be speaking to The State until after the new year : ( I can’t stand all this waiting, Mercades wants this to be over, and so do I

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

Boy, people are really……hmm…no I won’t go there, people don’t check thier research : ( and its so sad, sorry about the caps but I need this well seen for everyone THE LAWYER THAT ASKED FOR HER TO TRAVEL WAS FIRED MONTHS AGO RIGHT AFTER THAT COURT DATE AND WHEN HE CALLED THE MALE JUDGE A MA’AM IT WAS SO APPARENT HE WAS JUST FALLING ALL OVER HIMSELF AND REALLY DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE ONE WHOM WOULD NOT SPEAK TO ME WAS HER CURRENT LAWYER, WHICH BY THE WAY I HAVE SET HER STRAIGHT ON THAT ISSUE! THERE IS IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR A MISUNDERSTANDING OR ANYTHING. THIS PERSON JUST WANTS SOMETHING ON ME, ANYTHING TO TRY AND DIG UP ON ME, BUT THERE IS NOTHING. I AM A REAL PERSON, AND I BEAT MYSELF UP EVERYDAY, NOBODY NEEDS TO DO IT FOR ME, THANK YOU.
And as far as respecting people on here, I have had respect for everyone on here but one person, look at my posts, anyone who has asked me anything even derogatory but with respect I have answered and with respect in return.

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

Phil,

The only thing we knew we were asking for is the house arrest to be amended for her to try and look for work and church, I know people think the church thing is a crock and thats ok, but that is all we were asking for. He went in and asked for all these things, if you watch the TBO video of my face when he asked for that as i was back in the bench where people sit, my jaw dropped and I was shaking my head in misbelief. Then when we were out of court, do you remember when I said Mercades wanted to just give a public apoligy, did you see him almost push me out of the way saying ” oh, we only wanted the right to do it if she wanted to” wth is that about? I mean I understand a lawyer wanting the best for his or her client, but she only wanted to say sorry for this happening to her and maybe that she didn’t jump in ( the lower part is my opinion.) But still she wanted to just say sorry. Please guys, do more looking before attacking me or my daughter, please.As far as blaming others, well the proof is all there in the public records, I only blame myself for not having the nerve I have today when I was younger and raising Mercades. There is so much more I can get into but I am really trying to keep my cool, I mean Phil even though you question things about me, I still feel a touch of respect.

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

I mean for Mercades to just do a public apoligy she didn’t need to go out of state or do any interviews. I did want her to do a press confrence to say she was sorry and only because it was not feasable for her to tell Tori directly, understandably.

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

Hi again all. In responce to a responce to one of my prior comments. I compared anyone that has been frequently chatting with Christina Garcia, for a good period of time, that does take harsh digs at her, NOW. (AND now is important) tothe same mean spirited actions of Britiney Mayes on3/30/08. I STAND BY THIS.

To further explain. You do know who you are and you do know the answer, I can’s accuse you, because I can not answer the question, but you can. The question is, WHEN YOU INSULT CHRISTINA GARCIA DO YOU ENJOY IT? Now you’re only lying to yourself. I hope you join a Christina Garcia Hate Support Group, and I do think there should be one.
At this point why do any points against her matter? It’s her daughter looking at hard time, she does life with every mistake she makes. Every day for her is like my week. Why do you think you have to make it harder on this woman?

Why now, say anything bad about her 16 year old daughter, and what about her poor mother, a woman Talisa and Patrick Lindsay turned to to watch their troubled daughter. They never made any statements of support for that fine lady. Is it possible they never even called her through the load of death threats she got. We will understand Talisa Lindsay had to honor protocal of her lawsuit vs The 8, but we don’t understand The Nicole/Garcias could say something that’ll cause “Consciousness of Guilt” as we bash them for not appologising.

Some people, treat Christina as if she’s betting a paycheck on a sporting event. I know Christina is going through 7 MORE weeks of hell. If Christina was to say anything bad to me now, I’d be a jerk to bicker with her about it. Christina isn’t going to court over a parking ticket.

I’ve talked to her for about 6 months now. She does deserve my support. Some of you will see what I am talking about one day, and then wish you listened to me now.

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December 12, 2008

Electronica

amy ok. i understand.

and amy i agree the new guy is wierd. he says hes viking and webring from youtube well i know these two they used to post all the time and i mean like ten times a day and said really bad stuff about the girls. like he said something like cara should get jumped and beat so bad she goes blind and never goes to college. and he kept calling her fat i mean i think mercs a bit fat but if caras fat so are most ppl in my class. and he said ppl who think deadth threths are wrong are stupid or didnt watch the vid or soemthing like that. and he said all the kids of the parents should be taken away. so like mercs little sister should go to a foster home is what he meant. so how come hes now all like take it easy on merc and her mom. its spooky maybe he like just pretends and means to do something real bad. so i agree its wierd.

and amy i think the way you and mercs mom hate each other isnt good i mean you dont have to like each other but the way you talk to each othetr without talking to each other is like silly its middle school.

like i dont think you hate merc anymore but i think you need to hate someone in this so you hate her mom. and mercs mom too she hates the sheriff but he isnt here so she hates you and insults you maybe she thinks your his wife. but i think its all stupid it doesnt help anyone.

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December 12, 2008

gompertz

Christina, the answer you gave about the lawyers should be good enough to put that concern to rest. I know that you are going through a lot, and sometimes you get angry with Amy and you have both said things that may be considered insulting out of emotion. Yes, I know you have both had more than your share of problems and having teenage daughters to raise is a special kind of torment that I only know about indirectly. I also understand that neither you nor Amy have enough leisure time to read back over the older posts to see where the hostility came into the picture. I have a little more time, so I went back a few months and I can say that neither you nor Amy are responsible for the unpleasantness. There are some people who simply hurl insults because of personal issues of their own and I only hope for their sake they get help for whatever ails them. The people here now are much more reasonable, and it looks like they bring up questions and criticisms in an attempt to learn and not to condemn.

Though you may not agree I think Amy also wants to learn and offer help, though sometimes it’s hard to tell because of all the emotion surrounding this case, and she is more susceptible to be emotional than some others. I have exchanged views with Amy for four months and I find her to be reasonable and intelligent and I still hope both of you can communicate in a way that is more positive than what we have seen.

In one of your recent posts you said some things pertaining to Mercades’ arrest that might lead us to believe that there was gross impropriety in the actions of the officer. I think that Amy is truly concerned about the possibility that the officer you mentioned did something very wrong that requires some kind of follow-up. As she says, maybe he should be fired. So that is something which decent people would want to know about, and I know that Amy is a decent person who has no ulterior motives and I think she raises a valid question about that officer.

I’m sure I will have reasons to disagree with the various people here as before, including Amy. Most of us have nothing but our opinions and questions based on scant evidence. You are in the middle of this mess which you did not ask for and did not deserve. We welcome the unique point of view that you provide and I have asked others to be less hostile and unpleasant when after all, none of us is in a position to judge. I also understand your frustration when you offer explanations that no one else can provide and then people choose the worst possible interpretation and continue with the same old accusations. All I ask of you is that you refrain from looking at Amy as an enemy, and see her as someone who is trying to get the truth while dealing with major problems of her own. I believe that Amy is who she says she is just as I believe you are who you say you are, because I usually judge these things right, and I believe you are both fighting for justice and for victims.

I wish all the best for you and your family and I hope you can take your minds off all these troubles long enough to have a happy Christmas, and the Spirit will give you strength and guidance to overcome whatever tests are ahead.

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

Electronia as if what you’re saying has to do with the topic here, if you go to youtube you’ll see I blame The Cara Murphy Interview on Melodie J Lopez. Giving the way she did do the interview, I thought she did deserve to go through what Victoria did. There is alot not covered, that as I found, I changed my views on Cara Murphy.

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

Electronica, you’re right about the bickering and hatred towards myself and AMy : *( I want it to stop, but I feel every chance she thinks there is something she has on me, she jumps on the boat without really thinking about it. I tried to talk to her when I found out her dad was sick, but she just kept on with her hatred, and instead of me reaching out to her even more, I blasted back. But you know what I think? First of all, I don’t lash out on her for the sake of lashing out on someone, I simply replied to her comments that she’d be happy to know hurts, she’s a mother and she knows what buttons to push for that reason. But I feel she is really angry about her dad maybe dieing, I don’t think her meaness has anything to do with the case, but yet I am the recipient of her anger and hurtfulness : *( I tried ignoring this, but she just keeps going on and on. I AM GOING ON WITH MY LAW SUIT I HAVE GOOD CAUSE FOR IT, AND I WILL NOT BACK DOWN FROM THAT ONE, BUT if many people look down on the book idea I will give it up in the way of not publishing it or get money from it. But like I said I have to get these things out, so it won’t poison my mind anymore. I don’t have anyone to speak to, I don’t have a family left. The only person that ever knew me well and would talk to me everyday is gone : ( Oh how I wish Heaven had a phone. I come here for support believe it or not, not to talk anyone into changing thier minds about the case. I just need someone to talk to.

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December 12, 2008

Phil

What does what Victoria” parents not calling Cristina have any thing to do with this and how would you know who they called and why they didn’t if they did . but come on comparing traded insults on a blog to what Brit M did is silly ,assinne ‘insulting ,stupid . moronic ,well you get the idea. but then again mayby not . Oh No i am as bad as Brit M .

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December 12, 2008

Rainman

Hang in there Christina.

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December 12, 2008

christina garcia

Gomp said…
“All I ask of you is that you refrain from looking at Amy as an enemy, and see her as someone who is trying to get the truth while dealing with major problems of her own. I believe that Amy is who she says she is just as I believe you are who you say you are, because I usually judge these things right, and I believe you are both fighting for justice and for victims. ”

I am sorry Gomp, but I can not look at Amyv in any different light than she portrays to me. I am a strong woman, but I just can’t respond with sugar to a person that clearly only dishes out vinegar when speaking to or about me. It seems as though you are in more support of me leaving her alone, and that’s ok Gomp, you and I have spoken for some time now and I have respect for you, if I stay I will just ignore her, but nobody ask me to answer her questions then.

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December 12, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – Good to hear from you. As always I respect your opinion. I am glad you understand me better after my posting to you.

I agree the new blogger says some very strange and disturbing things. This is how I will prove to you and you alone that I do not hate Christina Garcia. Just have a very definite opinion of her. However, if I truely hated her I would not make this next remark.

If Garcia does not know this person and since a lot of people take her word for almost everything I will go with this. He has said some things in a way that if I were Garcia I would find his remarks way beyond supportive.

I do not care that he compares me to Brittany Mayes. Once again consider the source. I honestly did not realize what his comment was until Phil responded to it. I was more concerned, believe it or not, as to the strange wording he used with Garcia. Phil pointed this out to.

So you see the two people on here who supposedly hate her (especially me)
are actuallly concerned he maybe in some strange way a physical threat to Garcia. Phil sorry if I am speaking for you. Something not right here.

So I will address this directly to Christina Garcia – If you really do not know this man and have come to know him through posting, wow, watch out. To many specific count dones days. Even though you think I am worthless (not relevant) watch out. If you rely on gut feelings on this one I have a very strange gut feeling.

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Phil and Amyv, Did you answer my one question, yes? I do stand by it. I’d say the same to someone that attacked either of you. A person making a mockery of one of your tragedies.

I hope all you people to come together here. It seems as you have choice to meet during hard times for yourselves. Why not do as I said, come together for Christina until January 21st. Amyv my best wishes for your family.

Look we have 6-10 people here 12-20 viewers. Let love bring us here, let’s be each others support. Let’s not let this be a place that brings us down and makes us doubt oursleves.

I hope Christina does make it big in entertainment, I hope she becomes a guide for the children that gave her, her fame. Someone really has to.

PHIL I said Talisa or Patrick Lindsay should of had some sort of support for for the woman they selected to be Victoria Lindsay’s care keeper. Let’s take into account that without Mercades Nicole participation, there was still a good chance Tori would get jumped. (Christina I hope you do not comment on this statement, you could be liable.)

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

To all, I am the only person here willing to show themself on webcam. I even offer proof I am working and living in New Jersey.

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December 12, 2008

Garland

Robert, I do agree with you that people should give Christina a lot of space from all of the harsh remarks towards her. She deserves to have an opinion &amp to be treated like everyone else on here, plus we shouldn’t be treating Victoria like she’s the perpetrator &amp that she’s the one who started all of this drama (which she really hasn’t). You are talking about Gloria Allred, aren’t you? I don’t think that she should have walked out on them in the first place (probably because the Lindsay family couldn’t afford her anymore). Or are you talking about Mary Nichols?

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

Garland. I think Mary is Mercades Grandmother’s name. I just didn’t want to make a wrong guess. I am trying to keep Christina cheerfull. I am seeing here why she is so misunderstood. In regards to Allred, most likely she is not coming back, what Gloria did was weed out what The Lindsays should and should not say, or due. She was a dust buster. Now The Lindsays get a new lawyer, one that isn’t aware of something that harms their case. Now theyknow exactly what to do and say. They have all the right moves, the new lawyer has no dirt on his or her hands.

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

I am at yahoo messenger my adress is webring40@yahoo.com that is also my yahoo messenger ID. I am going to prove I lfe and work in NJ if you want to meet me Tuesday or Wednesday morning, that is if I don’t get overtime. Thursday I am a sure thing I am using a vacation day Thursday.

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December 12, 2008

Garland

I do agree with what you’re saying, Robert. Plus I do agree with what you’re saying about Victoria’s (either past or present) lawyer. A VERY poor choice at that. How could he had let Victoria answer questions &amp tell her lifestyle to the defendant’s lawyers? Her lifestyle had absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in the case whatsoever.

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

Garland. I think that with in the week of their media blitz, the goal of the civil lawyer was to bail out the remaining suspects from pursuing trial. The combination of Tori’s statement “I don’t want them to go to jail.” and The Mayes Lawyer knowing details of the Victoria Lindsay statement that was coming, should of had the remaining suspects make a move for a plead bargain prior to Victoria having to give a full statement which part of it was revealing her criminal record.

The Mayes Lawyer really droped the ball and for all suspects too. I really have to wonder if Britiney failed to tell him key details. Could you just imagine that? Then again tonight I am imagining Christina Garcia is here chatting with a small group of people in time that she should be looking up case files of plead bargains

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December 12, 2008

Phil

Here is the problem with all this fairness to Chritina that is being mentioned here . Here is A cut and paste from Christa’s blog 2 days ago

“Why do you continue to try and guess things that you clearly have no clue about? At this point things are so screwed up with the case that people read things like rumors and guessing ie. your little comments and take them as facts then form thier opinions, this is how the hate all got started. Are you trying to cause this to happen to my daughter? I am being sincere, not sarcastic or angry. If you want to go on about the facts and have your opinions fine, but please stop the guessing game, I am begging please just stop”

Again this is what we do here we talk ‘guess ,imply .assume and lable . How can we post honest opinions, assuptins and debates when the above quote is the peramiters that Christina want s this case to be discussed .
I will continue to discuss rumors make assumtions and make the same types of comments that have been made about Brit H Brit M and april and kayla . And again if we all look back at these post we all had the freedom to go where we wanted . And sometimes we bashed the people we talk about . Christina reads these same types of comments about Mercades and we are being accused ogf unfairly attacking Mercades . Cristina is on this blog begging us not to mae assumptins but only deal in the facts and stop guessing because of the effect it is having on her life.
I am sorry the things you read here cause you distress . I just cant see how it couldn’t and have us being able to blog freely

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December 12, 2008

Robert Stevens

Garland I forgot to mention the main reason The Lindsays would want to bail out the suspects. Out of prison the suspect could make and pay more money then they could in prision. I also forgot to mention the suspects plead bargain stock was highest right after Tori did say “I don’t want to see them go to jail.” however after the Victoria Lindsay Nov 27th statement their stock droped tremendously. The more harm the 8 do to Tori’s reputation the harder they’ll be hit in civil court.

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December 12, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Thank you for your comments. We have been blogging a long time. Yes, I have been accused on more than one occassion of being an emotional person. I do not apologize for this anymore because that is who I am.

If you look back on my blogs I truely stand by my convictions. When I wanted to know if this police officer was fired for this behavior, it was sincere. I do not know because we do not respond well to each other at all. Perhaps, your asking this question will help us gain some insight. Since you will not be perceived as having an ulterior motive.

I do not know how to look up police reports filed. So I would like to know if this person is out of an authorative position so he is unable to
do such disgusting things to another young girl.
Then, perhaps Electronica will believe that we truely do care about teenagers and adults are held responsible and punished for their actions equally. More severe for lewd acts on a minor.

I do as everyone agrees that all of these girls should be punished for thieir actions. However, if I hated them I would go on a blog and say the terrible things others have. So even when I agree, their is no understanding of my comments.As Victoria deserves justice so does Mercades. period.

Yes, My father is dying. When Christinia and I spoke about the undescribable pain of losing a person you love so very much, I do believe we were both truely sincere. If you look back, I told her I appreciated her support and I myself felt we were both being very genuine. This is why out of total respect for her I never, ever commented on the grandfathers ashes. This is certainly a place you do not go.

It has been questioned whether this was Mercades concern. I will not speculate on that one what so ever. So perhaps blogs need to be
reread as we were conversing solely as two daughters one who lost their father and one who has yet to feel the full extent of this pain.

Christinita – Although i do not plan to respond to many of your comments I must say this. And whether you believe it or not, i appreciated your information about the center you took your father to. I have absolutely nothing to gain from this. Does not change my feelings about other issues.

When you say I am angry at you because of my father dying you could not be more wrong. I feel no desire to be angry at anybody or anything but the cancer itself. I am not in that stage.

Now, since you said I blasted you at ever turn so do I feel you do the same to me so here it goes. HOW DARE YOU BRING UP MY FATHERS DYING AND SUFFERING AS AN EXCUSE FOR MY DISAGREEMENTS WITH YOU. THIS HAS BEEN MY PROBLEM WITH YOU FROM DAY ONE. ONE EXCUSE AFTER ANOTHER. BLAMING ONE PERSON AFTER ANOTHER. SO OUT OF ANYTHING HATEFUL THAT HAS EVER BEEN SAID ON THIS BLOG, YOU YOURSELF HAVE JUST TAKEN THE CAKE. I RESPECT YOUR FATHERS ASHES WHEN OTHERS QUESTIONED THIS. PROVE ME WRONG. YOU CAN BLAME ME FOR ANYTHING YOU FEEL IS NECESSARY TO FURTHER YOUR CASE. BUT, YOU WILL LEAVE THE SUFFERING, EXCRUIATING PAIN AND DYING OF MY FATHER OFF OF YOUR LIST. FOR HE DESERVES THE SAME RESPECT I SHOWED YOUR FATHER. BLAME ANYONE AND EVERYTHING YOU CAN POSSIBLY THINK OF, AS YOU CONTINUE TO DO, HOWEVER YOU WILL NOT DISRESPECT MY FATHER EVER. PERIOD.

I do not go after anyone to get relief from my pain of losing a man I love so dearly. Any anger I show towards you is when you bash Victoria. We need speak to each other no further. For you think I am cruel. You just showed you will stop at nothing, no limits to bash me. I show more respect for ashes than you have shown for a living breahting suffering human being.

To think I actually put aside all feelings related to this case to speak to you about the latest blogger. I will never show that kind of concern for you again.

Reply
December 12, 2008

gompertz

Amy, when I read you comments from last night it made me think about many things. I had to look within to see have I been unfair, especially to you, and I suppose that I have. No, I certainly never thought it was right for anyone to insult you. Just as I have defended Christina and I have said I would defend Victoria in the unlikely event that she would need defending.

While I do not know the people here personally, I think I know something about people by what they say and express on the blog. And so if I say you are iintelligent and a fighter for justice I mean it. And you are emotional, too, by your own admission, and I do not think that being emotional is wrong. Like you I think we need a blend of emotion and reason to function effectively, so on the basic philosophy of life we agree. I think people can disagree strongly about a case like this and still be in agreement about fundamental questions of ethics and morality.

As for you disagreement with Christina, I did not intervene because I kept hoping you would find a common ground of philosophical consensus in spite of all the nastiness. But that does not excuse my silence, and I am sorry I let things go to extremes. At this point I see it is not so easy to come to that agreement I was hoping for. As Phil said, perhaps it’s best for Christina to focus more on celebrating the holydays and for all concerned to avoid the occasion for conflict here.

As for loss of a parent, I lost both mine, and I will not discuss the circumstances of my father’s death when I was 17 years old. Enough to say it was very painful for me. My mother died of cancer 17 years ago, and it was hard to leave her under the dubious custody of a stranger, a caretaker, while I went off to work. There was also no Family Leave Act at that time, so I couldn’t ask for time off unless the boss granted it and he did not grant it. So I know a little about that kind of pain and when I mentioned that both you and Christina were going through problems I had that in mind, among all the other things you have both mentioned. So in a way I was using the same thing to make my point as Christina did in her reply to Electronica. So I am guilty of that also. But I couldn’t help having it in mind because it is something no one ever forgets when you have been through it. And I don’t blame you for your anger and as usual you manage to combine logic and emotion in a very effective way, and that is something I strive to emulate.

As for what you have taught me about myself in your statement of last night, I am still thinking about what it tells me about myself. I think there are times I was trying to sound clever rather than helpful and that must change, since I always think our role is to help rather than feed our ego through cleverness. The only thing I want to say, when I made comments to you in the past about things you said, like the use of the word “manipulative” I was trying to be helpful and not hurtful. Though maybe it was something I shouldn’t have brought up.

Right now I just want to add one observation, and I don’t mean to sound critical, but I want to refer back to the time I objected to people using the term “white trash.” I also said I didn’t like it when people described the perpetrators as “fat and ugly” not only because I don’t think they are fat and ugly but because it is just hurtful without getting to the point of what they did wrong. When I mentioned these things you responded in a way that indicated yoy might think I was referring to things you had said along these lines, as if you took my statements at that time as pertaining to you. And when I raised those objections and was definitely not thinking of you because I understood when you used that kind of terms you were doing so in a way that was constructive and to make a meaningful point, because you don’t go out of your way to hurt people. I get the impression there are times when you take a criticism of mine as pertaining to you when it isn’t. My arguments with you are not made in a veiled or suggestive way, I say what I think and you respond in the same way, and there are times I have altered my views because of points you make. So I have no intention of being deceptive or as I described myself at one point “manipulative.” As for my observations about BH that was just a line of inquiry that I thought might be worth looking into, and not really with any ulterior motives. I don’t have ulterior motives and I know you don’t either. So I will continue to think about your comments some more.

Reply
December 12, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
If you look at the last bunch of blogs directed at AmyV .Her kids have been brought into it her dying Father and she has put on the same level as Brit M(that one still really gets me} . And hardly anyone objected. and as I say if what she has said gets her that type of response than lets all take the gloves off.

Amy if i am sticking up for you again its because you have truly earned my respect and i promise that in the future i will not try to send you a hundred and ten emails .
My Father passed away about 4 years ago i live in another part of the county far from my family so it was up to my siblings to bear the burden of taking care of a dying man.I was spared so much of the suffering that everyone went through and i was and to this day so envious of my siblings that i was not able to share in that burden .Not everone who is facecing what your father is has family and love ones there for them . We have a great responsibility towards those we love and to me that is what makes those sacrifises so worth while

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December 12, 2008

Phil

I cant believe i misspelled Christmas

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December 12, 2008

gompertz

Phil as for the BM comparison that comes from someone who just appeared here and you have communicated with thisindividual and I have not. I used to go to that blog (or whatever you call it series of comments) and I always had the feeling over there that I was eavesdropping on a private conversation I wasn’t supposed to hear, So I don’t know. I agree there is something weird going on there. We have all had the experience of losing loved ones and I could talk a lot more about my own case but not relevant here, just that I know what it is like.
Still I am not sure I understand what you are saying to me. Are you suggesting I can’t see and read what everyone else reads? You say this is not a debating club but I say this is not a boxing match where the gloves comeoff and we slug it out. It is just like those who say I dont support Victoria the victim because I don’t because I don’t take the gloves off under cover of anonymity we all enjoy. Really, when I sit in front of the computer I don’t see the point of boxing metaphors, but there comes a time when I take the gloves off when my opponent is in front of me. And I don’t think of anyone here as an opponent. But I support Victoria and I support Amy and I support Christina because we all know she has a difficult situation forced upon her since March 30, but I don’t support her saying nasty things to Amy, because I also support her daughter Mercades and attacking Amy doesn’t help Mercades or anyone else.

As I stated I know Amy is intelligent and a good person. I admire her for raising a daughter under difficult conditions (I have friends with young children and they don’thave it easy either) while working at a responsible job and all the other troubles that families have to go through. So if you think I am not being as supportive as I need to be then please explain to me what more you want me to do.

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December 12, 2008

Phil

To gomp It Truly wasn’t directed at any indiviual and cetainly not you at all ,I was following up on your comments To Amy in your last post

and I don&rsquot mean to sound critical, but I want to refer back to the time I objected to people using the term
&ldquowhite trash.&rdquo I also said I didn&rsquot like it when people described the perpetrators as &ldquofat and ugly&rdquo not only because I don&rsquot think they are fat and ugly but because it is just hurtful without

This is what I thought happned To AmyV just hurtful statements and nobody was objecting .
the gloves coming off was my way of commenting about the the last bunch blogs getting more amd more viscious because of this. I was agreeing with you that this is what was happening again
It was not meant that i thought you had any responsiibilty or you should have got on and objected right away it was an observation of those post that were there not ones that were not

Reply
December 13, 2008

Phil

To Christina
You mentioned to me “I mean Phil even though you question things about me, I still feel a touch of respect”.you are a hundred percent right . i truley think with most people if you talk long enough without resorting to vilonce than these things usally can be worked out .Because this didn’t happen lives are changed forever and never in way thats easy .
I will be as open with you now as possible .i still can hide behind my annominity you can not this gives all of us a great advantage . You know what i feel about this case you know of the outrage i feel . I am on this blog vent these feelings to point the finger and the hardest thruth to judge the moral character of those involved .This unfortunaly includes you .Your lawsuit is the header of this blog . your motivation for wanting this is a crucial part of the discussion . You bring angles and insight that controversial and really stirs thing up . Look at the number of post since you have been back .I do not feel that this is the place for you when you say

“I come here for support believe it or not, not to talk anyone into changing thier minds about the case. I just need someone to talk to.”

You will continue to read things that will put you and your daughter in a bad light . This cannot be good for you and I urge you to seek out those who can make this time easier for you if you stay then I will apoligise now for all the things i will probally wright .The nice thing about life is if you really want to you can make lemonaide out of lemons
Merry Chrismas

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Amyv, sorry to hear you’re going through such hard times, also. I hope that all parties here could see through their differences and be the best of buddies.

To all, we all got knee jerk. The times are tough and the topic is emotional. Christina does have to pull herself together. I do know I would have to pull myself together. Last night I even got a little upset at Christina myself.

I do defend her for the same reason I was getting mad at her. She has to remain focus. Sometimes we do to. In regards to Amyv she did lose her important focus.

I hope today she gets up and does as I am saying. In my honest opinion her #1 priority now should be Plead Bargain History, On Tuesday I’ll see what I could do to help her.

I still advise that she goes to her nearest high security prison and talk to inmate para legals. Christina I am sorry, but you may be a good para legal, but those inmates never stop discussing these topics, and they’ve seen the part some people you now deal with delibratly hide from you.

You see alot of people come on line mocking Christina for wanting to be a celebrity. Obviously I don’t. I’m telling Christina alot of people want the case to go to trial 1. So the story gets better. 2. They become famous or more famous. I don’t want to see someone famous because Mercades Nichole has to go to jail alot longer then she should have.

Oh yeah, we’re amongst friends. Lets enjoy our time here and help boost each other’s spirits.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Robert Stevens – I will address you first for I feel I owe you an apology and then I will give you my reasoning behind it.

Yes, except for Christinia we are all here under anonimity. Yes, you can tell my name is Amy. I have mentioned before that I am in the medical field. I am a therapist however, I have mentioned it is in a rehabilitative compacity not psychological. Although, those issues do come in to play even when the injury or disease itself has nothing to do with those type of disorders. Psychological issues due come into play in dealing with the healing process.

I myself and I will speak for some of the others do not keep ourselves under a cloak of anonimity to be able to say things without having to deal with the consequences. We just know that the internet can provide personal information such as address, phone numbers, etc. So for safety reasons, just as I hope we are teaching all of our children, we are leary of giving out to much information. I myself have questioned whether I have given out to much already. This actually is truely sad that we can not me more open.

However, this is the world we live in (GregS) would agree whole heartedly on that one I do believe. Also, have to consider the safety of our children and other family members because of our actions on this blog. We chose to be on this blog they don’t.

I have stated before that I believe the laws should be changed in regards to giving out information like they did on these girls. However, because their is nothing illegal about it and the information is available to the public it is to late obviously to stop that from happening now. However, I would surely like this to become one of proactive things we can accomplish in regard to this trial.

Believe it or not, I would ban together before congress if necessary, with Christinia Garcia to have this laws changed. Since, we are both extremely stubborn woman and have proven we do not back down from issues this would be an asset for championing this cause.

Your are much more willing to be open, including web cam, then I would feel comfortable with. I will decline you invitation for that, although it was addressed to everyone, because I believe you should not be so trusting of others intentions. This is a heated issue and people can take things way to far. So, I know you are a grown man, please keep this in mind. I do appreciate your best wishes for my family and thank you for that support.

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December 13, 2008

Scott

Amy, I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through such a tough time during the holidays. I hope 2009 brings peace and happiness for you. You have stood up for Tori and victim’s rights from day one and have never wavered even with all the information true and false spread about Tori. That is to be admired. You never lost focus of who was the victim in this case.

As for your probelms with Christina that’s a shame. I don’t really know what to make of it. I wish there was a way you two could get along better. And Amy you were right not to comment on Christina’s dad’s ashes on the shelf. I don’t think it’s right to talk about that either.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – Sometimes I feel as if an apology between you and I is almost not necessary. However, I apologize if you feel that I am singeling you out on certain issues in regards to comments that are made about me, etc.

It is very true, we do not agree on really the main topic under the heading of this blog. Although, we have all moved in many directions past the name of the post we are under that I would hate for us to just stick to that one aspect. I think we would have all left here a long time ago.

I am sure in the future we will continue to have issues that we both feel so strongly about, that perhaps we will get a little heated about. However, I have a genuine respect for you and your beliefs that I to feel you are a kind and compassionate person. Therefore, I do ponder over your blogs longer than others we well. Perhaps because we are at polar opposite ends of the most heated debate going on here now.
If I just wanted to come on and everyone agree with every thing I said, it wouldn’t really be a discuss would it?

You have steered me many times in a direction that keeps me calm enough to blog with a more level head. Since, I advocate peace, sometimes it is as if I have to show the opposite emotion to get my point across. I hope I am making sense.

My point about the use of the word manipulator was directed towards you as you have brought this word up several times. Since, I did call this mother that and you blasted me good for it, lol, I assumed it was pointed directly at me. Just as you felt i was directing these comments towards you.

We have been very open with each other and time permitting have almost always specifically blogged to each by name in response to issues.
However, my insomniac friend, we are the ones here mostly late in the evening. lol. So we do not always feel it is necessary to name specifics names as it is to time consuming.

If you look back at my blogs I backed way off on any name calling when I felt it was just causing anger. It was not necessary and was not coming up with solutions to the problems we have all tryed hard to address. Which reach way beyond this particular case. Also, my use of the word manipulator is an action I feel is being performed, not necessarily a ‘label’. I think if we are all honest with ourselves, at one point in our lives we have all used this technique. I hope this does not come off as being negative or bashing again. Just trying to make things clearer.

Oh Gomp, I am sorry went back to your post to reread more comments. I wish their was a way of seeing someones comment kind of like a split screen t.v. instead of constantly scrolling up. The use of the words fat, white trash, etc. I do not take that comment as personal towards me. I do not believe I have used those terms when from commenting on this blog. Since most of the people using those comments, such as Phil, have already apologized and explained that they have spoken out of anger, I think unless they use them again their apologizes should be accepted as genuine.

Unfortunately, another issue in our society is looks and weight especially directed towards women. I have never had this issue but have seen many suffer through this problem. So, I think the size issue in this case is only relevant because of the further unfairness of her ability to be able to defend herself. Although, sometimes size does not matter as their are people tinier than me that with the right skills and strenth that I would worry more about in a physical altercation.

However, with a few of these girls we saw both size, strength and the know how to inflict phsical damage. That is a bad combination. So that is the only way I believe size comes in to play here. And, that is a relative issue to some of these girls in this case.

I do not use the word white trash because, I feel it is a slang word directed mostly towards southerners. Also, with people from lower economic backgrounds. Although, I do believe it is a mild word in some cases when directed solely upon the actions performed by people no matter what background they come from.

Thank you for your fairness in extending to me the same courtesy that you have extended to others. This is how I base my opinions on peoples true personalities and core values on this blog. So although we may never come to a meeting of the minds on Christinia, you have backed up your reasons by allowing the same courties and defense to me.

You have my utmost respect. Also, sincere thanks for your support and best wishes for my family. Sounds funny from someone you don’t know but sometimes it means more than coming from friends and relatives. I know I went way long with this blog. However, I am glad their is no time or space limit attached to our responses.

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December 13, 2008

christina garcia

Phil,

Can you please help me understand why your posts don’t bother me at all? I understand what you’re saying, I mean this blog is stated just what it is no? When I came here the topic sure didn’t say ” hey, let’s all support Christina and Mercades” right? I feel like there are some that when they bring up valid questions and concerns, they get through to me, and I’d like to think I answer them no? Then, there are just others that just rub me the wrong way. : ( I am not here to change your mind on how you feel about Mercades. I think we agree on the end result, the only differences we have is how we get there or why. I am serious though, if you know please explain to me, why some of you I absorb what you say and respect it, and others well it goes in one ear and out the other?

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December 13, 2008

christina garcia

Amy,

I am so sorry if I hurt you with my comment about your father. My feelings were honest Amy, I guess I thought I saw a part of me in my past when my dad died, I was angry at everyone, except God I never questioned him. Its kind of funny how someone who is your friend would get a completely different reaction than someone you don’t like ( I didn’t say hate) I tend to try and analize poeple to try and get to a deeper root, I am sorry, I should’ve realized you and I are furthest from 2 people that conversate like that. I don’t feel I said something insulting, but its simply the fact that it came from me that it insulted you. My father’s ashes is in no comparison to this, I never said anything like that. What I was trying to say is that maybe you were more emotional right now with well I’ll just say your situation ( out of respect) and with that maybe more emotional here. I truely didn’t mean to hurt you Amy, I know what you’re going through, and the times that are yet to come for you : *( I don’t mind you having your opinions about my kid or me, but instead of insinuating that I’m lieing about something or saying with underlined sarcasim that things don’t add to you, why not just ask your questions? But, take notes as to how everyone else speaks to me please, I have respected everyone on here, and answered respectfully asked questions. It will be difficult at first, because of our past here, and maybe I’ll always wonder if you’re really being sincere or not. I am willing if you are to try and start over with you.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Phil – I do not take offense to you coming to my defense. So thank you. Although, as I have said all along this really should not be necessary.

I did sit back for quite a while and let many things be hurled at me. I really did not respond because I did not feel it was necessary. I also sat back as you yourself have stated to see if the same comments peole felt were so inappropriate to be said by others, including myself towards Christina, were acceptable from her. I questioned to myself why she was allowed to call people all sorts of awful things and it was totally ignored. However, if it bothered me that bad or affected my health, I would have left the blog and stayed gone. I try to stay consistant and true to my word.

This issue just goes around and around. It gets no where. I have many of the same believes as you. I have never waivered in them. I have waivered however, in my initial angry response to the punishment acceptable for these girls.

Although, mine was much, much more appropriate than the horrible death threats, life in prison, etc. I never agreed 25 years or even 10 years was appropriate. Truely at this point I think it is just best left up to the courts. They have evidence we don’t. Although, I believe it has been stated so many times the tape speaks for itself on certain issues that can not be defended.

As far as Victorias past history. Irrelevant. That type of questioning goes on to many times in court in much more severe cases it should be unacceptable. Let me make this very clear to everyone when I stated things about other cases I am not comparing them to this one just some of the flaws I see in our legal system all the way around. I did not say corruption I said flaws. Since, I have also been steadfast on that issue as well.

Since, everyone agrees their was a crime commited I feel the one true person who commands absolute respect is Victoria. It does not matter what the reasoning was behind the beating. It does not matter what people think of her parents. It does not matter what peoples opinions on these girls are. She is the one I will defend if I see the least little suggestion of bashing. We both agree this has been happening. However, if others disagree that is their right as well.

I will make comments when I see this happening. I have shown very specific incidences and again. no response. However, what we feel on this post will not effect the outcome of the sentencing.

Once again thank you for coming to my defense as I would also come to yours if I continue to see this type of behavior. Although, I do not think this will be required for you. If certain questions are asked and their is no response I get my own answer that way as well. No matter what the rational reasoning is for not answering:)

Thank you again for your support of my family and my father.

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

As usual I’ll do most of my blogging later tonight and I just want to make a few short comments. I also must declinethe invitation of Robert Stevens to do the Webcam because I have some privacy issues ofmmy own. Even though I am one of the few who use their last name and it is a very uncommon name so anyone who wanted to could find me, for whatever reason, even in a huge place like NYC. Still his input is valued here like everyone else’s.

So much to comment on, but at this time I only want to ask Phil, I do appreciate your clarification last night, but I still don’t quite get your reasoning on something. You seem to say seomthing like, sure I respect Christina and I understand all she has been through and all the hardships still to come, but just because she is here, people are goiong to take shots at her because it’s such an emotional issue and so I also will hit her with my shots just because I can and everyone is doing it.

Please forgive me if that is an unjust caricature of what you said, I don’t have time now to reread it but I will later. Still I remember when I read your comment on this matter I felt I needed to clear up for my own benefit what you meant. And Phil I do respect your input and I have learned to respect your ideas a lot more than I did at the very firsttime you posted here and I wish you would provide a little more clarification on this, especially after reading what Christina just said about her reaction to your posts.

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December 13, 2008

GregS

Amyv you are correct, I am completely anonymous.
I believe it is necessary for teenages and adults to remain anonymous when communicating online as a safety precaution.

I do think that there are others who disagree with me. If you look at the posts on this blog and around the internet surrounding the Megan Meier case, many want to remove anonymous communication from the internet. Some people worry that sites like Juicy Campus for example will dominate the internet if we allow anonymous communication and they believe words should have real life consequences.

I’m not one of the individuals who believes words alone should have consequences unless those words are of a threatening nature. If someone hurts another persons feelings on a blog I don’t think people should sue each other over it, I think one or both should refrain from communicating.

I think with teenagers, it’s best to teach them to be street smart as a way to protect them from predators rather than create and / use the legal system. It’s best to tell your daughter and her friends to lie about their personal information on the internet. If an individual is truly their friend, the personal details wont really matter.

But if the person is a stalker, a predator, or someone like that, then only the personal details matter and they’ll probably be focused on getting and gathering those personal details. I have experienced this behavior online as an adult, and I know how hackers operate, if you give your real name, your date of birth, your location, sometimes this alone is enough because databases often store information according to names, date of birth, and location.

Myspace just makes a stalkers job much easier.

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December 13, 2008

christina garcia

BTW…I went yesterday to get a copy of my report on the newman insident to scan and put on a site to link for you guys, guess what? No such report! PCSO still not corrupt? : *( I hate Polk County it should be called Mayberry. Mercades wants me to just drop it, she thinks if I make a big deal about anything else she’ll end up back in jail. The mom and fighter in me says ” No way can this man get away with this” He has teenage girls, I wonder how he’d feel if someone did this to them? I am calling for his job. What do you think I should do?

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December 13, 2008

Garland

Robert Stevens said:

(“I think that with in the week of their media blitz, the goal of the civil lawyer was to bail out the remaining suspects from pursuing trial. The combination of Tori&rsquos statement &ldquoI don&rsquot want them to go to jail,&rdquo and The Maye’s Lawyer knowing details of the Victoria Lindsay statement that was coming, should of had the remaining suspects make a move for a plead bargain prior to Victoria having to give a full statement which part of it was revealing her criminal record.
The Maye’s Lawyer really dropped the ball and for all suspects too. I really have to wonder if Britney failed to tell him key details. Could you just imagine that? Then again tonight I am imagining Christina Garcia is here chatting with a small group of people in time that she should be looking up case files of plead bargains.

I forgot to mention the main reason The Lindsay&rsquos would want to bail out the suspects. Out of prison the suspect could make and pay more money then they could in prison. I also forgot to mention the suspect’s plead bargain stock was highest right after Tori did say &ldquoI don&rsquot want to see them go to jail.&rdquo However, after the Victoria Lindsay Nov 27th statement, their stock dropped tremendously. The more harm the 8 do to Tori&rsquos reputation the harder they&rsquoll be hit in civil court.”)

I’ll bet that will come about of what the defendants are trying to do. It’s quite ridiculous &amp sickening. The attorneys know that tape alone will convict the defendants one way or another, so what do they do? Instead of having the defendants take full responsibility for their actions, they want to be cowards &amp attack Victoria by using her personal lifestyle, all in the name by playing the game of what it’s called “Blame The Victim”. Plus I don’t think that the defendants should be making money off of this situation. Very cruel. Karma will come back to haunt them all, including the parents of the defendants (April’s parents, especially).

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December 13, 2008

Phil

I thought I was being clear with regards to Christina .but let me be clear . I am going to cut and paste an earlier blog that i posted and ask you to look at what i have said and please critique it from me dec 12

Here is the problem with all this fairness to Chritina that is being mentioned here . Here is A cut and paste from Christa&rsquos blog 2 days ago

&ldquoWhy do you continue to try and guess things that you clearly have no clue about? At this point things are so screwed up with the case that people read things like rumors and guessing ie. your little comments and take them as facts then form thier opinions, this is how the hate all got started. Are you trying to cause this to happen to my daughter? I am being sincere, not sarcastic or angry. If you want to go on about the facts and have your opinions fine, but please stop the guessing game, I am begging please just stop&rdquo

Again this is what we do here we talk &lsquoguess ,imply .assume and lable . How can we post honest opinions, assuptins and debates when the above quote is the peramiters that Christina want s this case to be discussed .
I will continue to discuss rumors make assumtions and make the same types of comments that have been made about Brit H Brit M and april and kayla . And again if we all look back at these post we all had the freedom to go where we wanted . And sometimes we bashed the people we talk about . Christina reads these same types of comments about Mercades and we are being accused ogf unfairly attacking Mercades . Cristina is on this blog begging us not to mae assumptins but only deal in the facts and stop guessing because of the effect it is having on her life.
I am sorry the things you read here cause you distress . I just cant see how it couldn&rsquot and have us being able to blog freely
End of previos post
Christina is asking us to limit our resonses so she will not get upset .
Gomp Do you think I am mis -representing what she requested and is it fair

‘then the issues of Christina going full tilt at amyV and then hearing how we should be more respectful of Christina and no one asking her to be more respectful as well . it seemed like a double standard was starting to take place .
Most of all After that post I was truley concerned about the effect that Christina reading our comments was haveing on her . It is good for us to have her here i do not think it is good for her . We harshly critique.
the others invoved in this case without fear or prejuduce .I don’t know is Christina will aford us the same where Mercades is concerned .

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Amyv and other of cource. I’m going to give one more reason to take Christina Garcia with a grain of salt. To begin with, I do think her level of stress is enough.

Over at youtube we did do alot of talking about this. There is a good chance who’s posting here as Christina Garcia is not Christina Garcia. I think the random renegade is the least likely senerio. Under that senerio, I am sure the real Christina does still read all of our comments.

A more likely senerio is a cyber law enforcement officer. I am very certian The Cara Murphy Myspace page started after her charges droped is a Cyber Law Enforcement Officer.

The possibilty I consider most likely is, that this is someone aproved by Christina, and is her co-author.

Overall I think it is a combination of her and her co-author.

No matter which senerio is correct. Christina Garcia does read our comments. Back to defender her as her. We’re still not getting the real her. Besides stress, from time to time she has to watch for saying something that shows “Consciousness of Guilt” I “” that term, because it is a legal term. The combination of that legal term and her Media Portrayal or Betreyal. Really put her in a cross fire. Let’s not forget rude comments by strangers. Justified Paranoa, remember I do believe she should win this law suit, but it has nothing to do with her daughter’s case.

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Garland: I agree with you. I have to ask you though are you sure April Cooper’s parents put up The April Cooper Support Group at Myspace? I honestly don’t know. I more favor the idea another local teen put that group up. If the Coopers really are behind that page, they are jerks beyond my believe. Not just for displaying teir own stupidy, but due to some legal terms, they really screw all the other suspects. This is another reason to pity Christina or give her more tolerance. Mayes &amp Murphy’s lawyers made tremendous errors, and these are just those that us from the outside could spot.

To Phil, I’m not saying Mercades is an angel, but from what I’ve seen from the day after on. She is the victim of alot of people’s lies and errors. I also do believe she did want to appologise. I honestly believe if all the suspect were like her, all the correct moves would have been made. 1st quick plaed bargains in which no one would have seen an adult prison, OK just maybe Hardcastle, but for no more then 8 months. 2nd an appology tour, that the lower accused girls would be doing now. This tour may have even covered the bulk of the civil suit. Instead we have Prosecuters earning statements that increase all’s time, in regards to plead bargain. They also made alot of statements that will hurt them when they are sued.

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

Phil, no I really don’t see a double standard. Both Amy and Christina have said some hurtful things and I think the questions and answers would have been just as effective without the colorful expressions. And I think it is possible to discuss things without it. I could say “what is your problem?” or I could say “What is your f***ing problem?” and the second way doesn’t make it more meaningful. I know there are some things Christina would rather not answer, and a lot of the things we ask involve the legal situation that we just can’t talk about because that is how it is with legal matters. As for the explanations Christina has given, I have seen some people reject those explanations and accuse her of ulterior motives without taking too much time to think about it. If you say the sheriff is corupt, right away you are accused of believing conspiracy theories. And I KNOW that law enforcement people are very corrupt. Let me hasten to add, the vast majority of cops on the street are good people and I would advise children to trust them. Not so with the people higher up, they get their positions of power by making deals and joining networks that include the very people they should be prosecuting. Believe me, I have plenty of knowledge of how corrupt they are, and my first-hand knowledge is backed up by many people I have known, many from the South, from small towns in MIssissippi or Alabama who I know as friends and co-workers who all have stories to tell about small town corruption. Are they all conspiracy theorists? And while many people (especially academic types) want to make it a race issue, it is not. Whether you are black or white, you will be disadvantaged if you are not part of the “system.” And if you admit the indisputable evidence that the Sheriff lied (I would prefer to say he “was not entirely truthful”} then it is no good to say, well he just made some mistakes and should be excused. If you have the power and authority Sheriff Judd has then you can’t give him a free pass because every little “untruth” has incalculable potential to do harm. As we have seen.

A lot of it comes down to what each of us wants to get out of the blog. For me, I think I use it as a way to communicate and this case made such a deep impression on me from the time Nancy first showed that video over and over it helps me deal with all kinds of feelings to talk about it. For some people, and I mean no one in particular it seems the blog is like the experience of being in the audience of Jerry Springer where you get up and insult the guests just for fun. I think some people don’t realize how much it hurts to be told insulting things. And there are boundaries, which may not always be obvious. I read the blogs from April, and did you know that Trench banned some people for making insults that got way out of hand? Not that he would ban anyone here ( at least I don’t think he would) because we have a lot of freedom to say what we want. I set my own boundaries and they don’t have to be your boundaries. But I reserve the right to defend Christina for all she is going through and part of it is because I feel the Sheriff has been unfair to her and Mercades. It was totally unfair to rearrest her and yes of course I think it was pure retaliation and he would never have gotten away with it in NY. And the misrepresentations in the media hurt too. So I would prefer not to add to the pain this family has gone through, and if Christina comes here for support I try to be supportive. And most important, I don’t see that being rough on Christina or any of the others helps Victoria. I want to get at the truth and I really think that in some way we can all help in that regard by what we say here, though I am not sure how, since the court doesn’t care what we say. But I believe in the Cosmic Consciousness or you may call it God. And in y view we are all manifestations of the Cosmic Consciousness and here on the blog we participate in the unfolding of that Consciousness for the greater good. So yes I take it seriously and I don’t impose this view on anyone but that is my motivation here. So I try to be fair and not hurtful to anyone and it doesn’t always turn out the way I intend it but I’m still trying.

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

To RobertStevens: Interesting possibilities, and my lack of legal expertise leaves me mostly with nothing but my imagination to come up with possibilities. I wonder if you know anything specific about what possibilities might be discussed in the plea deal process? Sometimes a plea deal involves pleading guilty to the charges to escape from going to prison, but you could be listed as a felon and you take all the consequences that come with that. On the other hand could they be negotiating to receive immunity from civil liability? These are just guesses, I don’t have inside information but it is taking so long and if it were a simple matter I would think they would jump at the chance to not let that video be played at a trial. Especially BM with the groaning would have to be careful what she says on the witness stand or maybe a sexual offender charge might actually be appropriate in her case. But that is just more speculation.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

I really find it hard to come up with just the right words. So here it goes. The only thing that I think that should be done.

This is a difficult one. Please everyone read my entire post before responding. Because I am trying to be as fair to everyone concerned as possible.

First let me say this officers name has been mentioned on this blog. So himself and his family have been exposed to public scrutiny. Now without any evidence at all this is difficult. Because if we do rely on someones words alone, which we have all been criticized for not going by facts, where do we go from here.

However, I do not take these allegations lightly. Christina, Mercades and this officer are the only ones that know the entire truth of this matter.

This being said I will respond to this question from a mothers point of view. (I really want this to be taken with sincereity by everyone.}

I know if my daughter were put in this situation she would be asking me the same thing. I would have to sit down and truely examine everything that has gone on. Starting with the sheriffs lawsuit and see how much damage I saw inflicted upon her. If this is in retaliation to that (I would certainly come to that conclusion without a doubt} I would have to do a lot of soul
searching for I do not back down either.

However, for her safety I would give this serious consideration. If the retaliation has reached to that level you can do one of two things.

One go all the way to the Supreme Court if you have to to get protection and justice for your daughter. Look up every legal avenue that could possibly be taken. I mean any material you can get your hands on. Since you already have a lawyer get him/her heavilly involved. I don’t know if the last blogger was correct when he mentioned para legal but if you are one this should be much easier. Get the lawyer to get her some kind of protection. period.

The onlly issue is how Mercades is truely being affected by all of this. I do not doubt that she already is scared (to put it mildly) with the upcoming court cases. If this continues and all of this fall out is from the lawsuit to the sheriff, perhaps stuborness should be put aside because
she truely will not have any safety net.

If I have been wrong, and I have never said I was perfect, the corruption would be to much for me. I would not put my daughter in harms way any further. I would drop the case against the sheriff and not pursue the matter any further. I would focus on the trial and try to plea bargain a reasonable punishment. I would start preparing for the next trial with the best lawyer I could find.

Only Mercades and Christina can make these decisions. If you do not pursue this officer for his actions to protect her, you will also need to drop the lawsuit to protect her. It really can’t be either or if they are intertwined.

This is a truely difficult decision. Or, perhaps being around Mercades and seeing her torment it should be any easy one. Hard situation.

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geompertz, in regards to civil responcibilties there is no way out for those girls. Like I said it would be wisest to just get this over with. In fact all 8 will be sued, and possible the girl that was mentioned at the barn fire.

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

Ok for those of you that still wonder why do I now support Christina and her daughter.

* Contrary to what the news says, the family does have GOOD history. Christina marrying a military man in my book is as good as serving. Her mom Mary, is unquestionable a good person. Mercades did screw up 3/30/08,

* Ok where I left off Mercades did do wrong, but 1 how could she have expected 4 of her friends where such _________. 2. She was not one of the girls found celebrating. 3 The Nichole family and/or Hassall did turn over evidence (the tape). 4. She was to this date the only one to show genuine remorse. Yes Kayla and Cara appologized, but with Kayla within a minute she also says”I never did like Tori.” and her voice tone match the spirit of the statement. In Cara’s case go to youtube watch the video and judge for yourself. 5. In the aftermath Mercades is getting nailed for all other’s errors.

* Supporting my prior statement about Mary Nichole and her family being good. When Victoria was having problems, her parents did turn to Mary Nichole to take care of their child. In accordance to Victoria Lindsay’s own statement, Britiney Mayes and other were planing the jumping of Tori.

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

Robert Stevens, thank you for clearing up things, and so far it agrees with my own idea that Mercades didn’t plan it or condone it. It only have to look at the video of her at the court and I see a scared little girl who can’t figure out how she got into this mess. So sometimes I get it right. What about BH? Was she set up in any way by Mayes. Did she have a problem with Victoria or was she just trying to gain acceptance from the group by doing their dirty work? Especially BM who might be the chief instigator and then hid behind the camera and let Hardcastle take the fall..

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geomertz, This is another reason I feel sorry for Mercades. First I agree that this was done in the same spirit as a sexual assault. I also believe Britiney Mayes will lead to a law change. If they do go to court, this would be what The Prosecutor brings the case home with and wins hios convistions.

Back to why I feal sorry for Mercades. Out of the 5 left, I think she is the most innocent. Not innocent, but better then the rest. Here comes another legal term ” Accomplice Liability” In New jersey it’s 2C:2-6 so if you want to google it (Accomplice Liability 2C:2-6) it exist in Florida also, I just don’t know the code, I did look it up. Under Accomplce Liability everyone in that room is accountable for everyone else’s actions, if the state chooses to go that direction. In other words Cara Murphy should be routing for plead bargains or some Febuary day she could be hearing again “Cara, You have the right to remain silent.”

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December 13, 2008

Garland

Robert, to be honest, I can’t really tell if April’s parents were the ones who started that support site. There are rumors going around at topix back a while ago that they’re the ones who put it up. I can’t tell whatever they were the ones to put that support page up or if it was another individual who started that page. Perhaps someone can tell us by using their IP address to determine that. If they’re the ones who started that, then they’re even more evil than I thought.

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geompertz in regards to your question about Hardcastle, From what I saw and from what mainly Kayla Hassall says, all the girls there were cowards. IMO Mayes was the ring leader and she was the biggest coward, how does anyone with her size advantage on Tori have to call for back up. They did what fear made them do. Why on one day that Tori said “I’d kick your ass!” didn’tone of those girls say OK here and now. April only hit Tori after it was established that Tori did not want to fight. Utubedetective pointed that out. April Cooper was such a coward, if you watch the tape you could see she made sure Tori saw Mayes and others before she threw her first punch. So does it prove premeditation or that she’s a coward, I say both.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

I need help understanding what Robert Stevens is trying to say. Robert I am asking Gompertz because you are new here and sometimes I like to go to Gompertz for explainations.

Maybe I am wrong not asking him directly. However, the first statements is take Christinia Garcia with a grain of salt. Their are statements made that this is not Christinia Garcia. Statements made that it is a Cyber Law Enforcer. Statement made it might be Christina and a co-author.

Are these statements not meant to lead us to distrust the person on her who claims to be Christinia Garcia? For if that is truely the case this person would deserve zero acknowledgement for totalling lying and deceiving all of us. Please explain why continued support would be given to such a person?

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

AmyV I am glad you asked that question.
1. In my opinion due to “Accomplice Liability” Mercades Nichole could get screwed way worse then she deserves.
2. Mercades does not deserve the overall treatment she got.
3. Mary Nichole &amp Christina Garcia , In my opinion do deserve this law suit.
4. A combination of “Consciousness of Guilt” (A legal term, used in civil court) and Media Portrayal, Christina is in a Damned if she does and damned if she don’t appologise.
5. Alot of what we bitched about Christina doing, saying or not doing or saying, came via Lawyer’s advice. We shouldn’t blame her.
6. In the case that you have with her AmyV (not court case, you know) who know what her day was like prior to her commenting to you as she did. Amy you two have to have some like for each other, to servive.
7. Christina is more patient then we give her credit for. Look at her keep followers of the story that have been against her updated.
8. Again if you get a chance go to her myspace page. I see it and I am impressed.

AMYV if you’re looking for another detail I have to ask. Did you know I practice Past Life Regression? Maybe one day we could discuss that at a different message board. I also practice The Power of Now. I’d share a story about Christina and I, and our correspondences in regards to me trying to puch her into The Now. I still try.

AMYV I say we have to support her now, get her positive, because this period of her life is just that important to her. In two years when you see her crying on TV (Let’s pray not), and mercades is over punished, could you live with your untimely bickering with her, in her toughest hours. She is strong for commenting with us everyday. Sometimes I read something she says and I forget it, I’ll try my best to catch myself. I still do critisize, but only if it’s constructive. I’d hate to do any thing else.

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December 13, 2008

Robert Stevens

OK AMYV, I admit I am complicated, and no quaetion most would call me a New Age Wierdo. But just in regards to this case what I’d like to see.
1. A plead Bargain, all the girls go to jail, even Cara. OK Cara won’t happen.
2. Everyone get to tell their own story. No one try to tell the other’s story.

Overall, if these girls do find a way out of going to jail. They will never get any respect. Cara Murphy would have been better off going to a youth house for 6-18 months then what she did. As much as you hear me behind Mercades here, she should do a year or two in jail, and I have seen Christina Garcia post the same thing. This is why I believe Christina is a victim of having to follow other people’s lawyers. In the end we may see The Garcia/Nicoles wanted the quick knock out we all naged them for not doing, but due to being caught in a co-defendant situation, they had to endure like the rest of us.

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

Amy, sorry I didn’t answer right away, I just got home from having dinner. I honestly don’t know what to make of those allegations. Personally I have always felt that the person who blogs here is really Christina Garcia, the same one we saw on TV, the same personality. That impression is confirmed by my exchanging e-mails. I dont remember if I said this on a previous blog or meant to, but I feel that the people here have a kind of personal presence that I identify with through communicating here. There are waiters in restaurants and neighbors that I greet every week but I don’t feel I know them as well as I know people on the blogs. Here’s an example: if you read a blog entry here without knowing who wrote it but you knew it was someone whom you had exchanged views with before do you think you could figure out who it was? Do you think you could distinguish for instance Greg, Electronica, Scott, Garland? I think we could easily because each projects a distinctive personal aura and that is just my feeling about Christina. So I will continue to treat everyone here as the person they say they are. So, while I welcome the views of Robert Stevens and am thankful for his courteous replies to my questions, I would need more proof. As the great philosopher David Hume said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I don’t want to discuss Christina on this post until she has the opportunity to reply. Anyway, one thing is clear. There is a scared child named Mercades who is suffering because of the mess she got into, probably because she had so much emotional turmoil in the time leading up to the tragedy she made some very bad choices. And we also know Victoria is the victim because she is there on the tape, as we have repeated over and over.

As for my little theory about BH, please be assured I am not defending her. What if I am right that she was set up by the others, so what? Even so, she is still the tough girl who beat up a helpless victim to impress her gang. And that is not a good thing. It is just a question of realizing that BM was the true instigator, hiding out of view, and that is interesting to me because if you remember at first I was led to believe her show of remorse was genuine and now I am no longer sure. Anyway you may notice that as a rule I dislike making definitive statements)

As for past life regression I cannot judge. Suffice it to say that some of my “Taoist” practices would strike a skeptical person as being unsupportable, because as the philosopher says extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But then I am not making any claims, I just have some practices that may be difficult to understand if I tried to justify them. But not as extraordinary as, for instance transubstantiation in Catholic theology. But that’s a whole other story.

Sorry if I don’t have definitive answers, just my feelings, and even my feelings are at this moment very fuzzy about so many things both about this case and about a lot of other things, but the night is young and maybe I will think better a little later.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

I think their are a lot of double standards going on here. Assumptions are quickly relied on as facts when it comes to anyone but Mercades or Christinia.

We are told to leave Mercades alone as she is not here to defend herself. O.K. Than logicaly and factually we should not be talking about any girls or their parents. None of them are here to defend themselves. So how could this not be preceived as a double standard.

I have stated before I thought the ringleader was not Mercades. Since, this has been a very hot topic on this blog. This comment was meet with no criticism. If anyone did believe Mercades was the ringleader the attacking began.

Now we have assumptions being made with no more evidence to back up the ringleader theory then Mercades. It will be interesting to see if calling Brittany Mayes, looks like she is now the lastest target, will be afforded the same consideration as Meracdes.

Also, their have been limits asked for her in reference to mercades that have not been set for everyone. So we should limit our comments to theories about the other 5? I really am not getting this at all.

I blogged to Gompertz a few blogs back that I thought Brittany Mayes looked genuine and sincerely remorseful at the court appearance. Gomp blogs about Mercades demeanor and looks at her court appearance as looking remorseful.
So is that fact or assumption? I will be the first one to admit I was wrong. An innocent looking face does not equate a lesser level of involvement or a show of true remorse for this crime.

I have little doubt this will lead to a lot of back lash. I surely am not sticking up for any of these girls. Because as I stated before they all did commit a crime. Agreable to all some way more evident than others. I just question where is the logic or fairness of saying now that their may be a new ringleader?

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I keep thinking of things I want to add to what I said, like when I just referred to Mercades as a child, and some would say she’s 17 and not a child but remember at age 61 I have a right to call her a child, because it’s all relative. Just to say I can’t judge some of the specific claims made by Robert Stevens but I agree with the sentiments he expressed toward Mercades and her family. And I think you do too, though you haven’t seen eye to eye with Christina. As I have stated and Greg has stated numerous times, I hope you and Christina can work together for the cause of justice you both believe in. We all go through rough times and I know your pain is real and Christina’s pain is real. So much suffering in the world! Why not work together to relieve the suffering?

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December 13, 2008

gompertz

Amy if you remember at first I thought B. Mayes was genuinely remorseful when she cried and I drew attention to the Jesus pictures in her photobucket as proof of her sincerity. You were the one who corrected my impression by pointing out that those pictures could easily be placed there easily, just that my understanding of the workings of the computer was limited (and still is limited) and I did not realize how easily things could be faked. Still, I don’t want to point fingers at anyone, just trying out new theories. If I support Mercades, I also want to be able to support all of them and their families and I think I understand Talisa saying she feels both anger and compassion. I keep saying this, I don’t want any of them to suffer, I want them to go through a period of remorse and repentance and move on to better things than the lives they have lived that led them to this. Of course in saying this I risk the accusation that I am forgetting about the victim, and I will never forget that Victoria is the victim. We have discussed all this before and whatever happens with the court cases that is not the end because the whole healing process will continue and from my point of view that is the most important thing.

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December 13, 2008

Amyv

Robert Stevens –

In regard to would I regret bickering with her now if I saw her crying two years from now for over punishment to Mercades. The answer is no.

Would I feel sympathy for her because she is a mother whose daughter has been punished unjustly. Absolutely. I will explain my reason.

Your punishment suggested for Mercades is harsher than mine. I think that a boot camp setting would be appropriate for all of these girls. I actually think that would be more beneficial to them and to Victoria. Sort of on the same line as Gompertz with Tai Chi. However, a more structured, regimented enviironment. Up early, school, studies, chores and early to bed. This will teach them discipline. Also Therapy and anger management programs.

You see I do not want these girls to go to prison for a long period of time. I do not wish them any bodily harm. I say this even though I believe this crime was inexcusable.

My bickering with Christinia has not been about the amount of punishment these girls deserve. It has been about other issues. Actually, I am a lot more leniant in my judgement of Mercades than she gives me credit for.

I would feel remorse if I suggested a punishment that was proven to cause them physical harm. Or was harsher than they deserved.

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December 13, 2008

Phil

Thanks Chistina ,Gomp and AmyV for your comments . it will be hard to respond to all of your remarks . plus I do not want to keep on repeating the same points so I would like to start talking about the case again and see what everyons responses will be.Lots of us got things off our chest and I think that is a good thing.
I find the question on who we think the ringleader or ringleaders were interesting .Every one has an opinion .the reason i find this interesting is , First you have to believe that alot of the events were pre determined . if you believe the defendants statements that nothing was planned then there was no ringleaders and what was done is on tape . here are my views on both scenarios . I think the ringleaders were Brit M and Mercades . The fact that Victoria received a text saying If you dont change your atttitude BH will beat you up and i wont stop it . The first piece of evidence that this was planned is this is what happened Brit beat Victoria and Mercades did not stop it . . Mecades say that Bh grabbed the phone this is confirmrd in Kaylas audio interview she she says that Bh Victoria and Merc were going back and forth .I have never heard Mercades saying she didn,t know what was said only that she didn,t send it it .its not like BH took the phone ran into the bathroom to text this message. This message is the first known time that violence is mentioned .Three teenage girls in a car or the living room there is no way that they are not talking about this.It would be what did Vic say ,tell her this or what did you say ,the phone was probally being passed back and forth..Both Mercades and Kayla knew about this picticular text and thay both said that BH sent it thats because thay kwew.If not they would not of known who sent it . Then According to Vic the whole tone of the messages change this I belive is Mercades .Bh ‘s aggression is repaced by a much softer tone .Victoria ask is there is going to be trouble and is told ” not to worry we just need to talk “. .This I believe is Mercades This to me is important because this is a luring statement because according to Victoria and confirmed by the driver they were met by 3 very angry girls and not by”its ok and lets just talk”. According to The Driver she left with the understanding tha Victoria could stay for 2 hours to find a place . this did not happen.
A warning was given to Victoria not to go into the house but it was cryptic and again thats Mercades .I think she said just enough to make sure Victoria went in the house .everyone pretty much agrees what happened next .Victoria goes into her rm and AC is wating . Not that an arguement started or Victoria started talking tough .April is waiting in her Rm . Even if Victoria is kicked out she would still have to go in her rm to get her stuff. Just Before April thows the first punch in front of the miracously appearing camera When some one is yelling Elmer you can here somone {I think BM} says” I thought you were going to fight”
Please check this out “.Lets look at some very interesting responses Mercades does not act suprised whwn Victotia came out of the bdrm . No -one did they were all waiting . If thhis just happened how come there was no disscussion about the hitting itsel it moved right away to an all out verbal attack by everone against Victoria .If a spontanous fight breaks out how do you get six teenage girls all on the same side so quickly whatever else is argued It was 6 people against Victoria.Mercades never acted like she was suprised it happened never triied to stop it .I have seen fights happen in my friends home .In all instances the person whos home we we in always tried to stop the fight .

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December 13, 2008

Phil

I truley believe the start of this was planned It may of got away from them but even near the end of the fight they all had that” its fair its a one on one fight” defense which certainly sounded rehearsed. Therfore if that was the case then you had to have people to move other people doing the deed . Very rearly do you have the ones doing the violence being the leader. I think you had BritM working up April. this would have been easy I think BritM is dangerous and with her Age differense and Aprils own Bravado And both had a grudge . Alot of people hear have stated the opinion that April was trying to impress the older girls . That would have meant BM more than the others . It was probally Mercades and April who got BH going . What is interesting ,Victoria said that she didn’t have a problem with BH. And i have not heard of one thing that Victoria Did to BH. Yet she was the one that was worked up . That is a huge sign that it was someone was pushing her buttons good . If Brit H sent that meassage ” Beat you ,not going to stop it text than she was being egged on way before Britm arrived .The assult ended when Mercades said lets go I got to p/u her Granmom.brit h stops right away . no more punches thrown. I also find it interesting that BH trys to get everyone to hit Victiria except Mercades .The other proof to me that the ringleader were BritM and Mercades is that thay were the only ones to not filled with anger .BritM Directed and Mercades observed nither one had the anger of April ,BH oh Kayla. that is also a telltale sign of who worked who up . .If you believe that nothing was planned then of course there is not much in my last 2 post to agrre with.

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December 14, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
I don’t know if i am agreeing with what you have been hinting at but i think Btir h knows now that she was set up.this is know way excuses her or gives reason to lessen a deserved punishment but i thinks she knows that her buttons were indeed dilibertly pushed and to me that is Mercades style . She has been accused in the past to hav ing other people do questioable or illigal activities , So the track record is there .Throw in the we were afaid of Brit H Excuse and I think Brit h has put 2 and 2 together

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December 14, 2008

Electronica

well i was thinking maybe i shouldnt post anymore i tried to make things better between amy and mercs mom and i made them worse. is one reason i try not to get between two gronwups in real life.

and you know i was thinking would i for sure do the right thing is i was there. and im sure i would if those ppl were my age ive been in situations like that and i spoke up and stuff. but ive never been in that kind of situation when most there are like hs seniors. like i dont hang out much with ppl like that and if i do theres someone i know well. but what if she didnt do the right thing? its easy to judge ppl like kayla but its not so easy when theres older ppl there.

anyway here its almost like real life its like amy and i wrote each other so much and ms. garcia was on tv so its almost like i know whem. and thats why i dont wanne get into any personal stuff its one thing arguing about the beating and punishment and stuff and another dealing with hurt feelings and stuff. thats bad in real life and pretty bad here too.

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December 14, 2008

Amyv

Phill –

I agree with your analogy that if their was truely a ‘ringleader’ that would be implying or assuming that this act was premeditated. I had stated this in prior post. I am not sure if anyone had a response to this. This blog is getting so long, it gets tiresome to scroll up through so many comments to find one particular one.

If it was a coincidence that all of these girls having one problem or the other with the victim just happened to be their no ‘ringleader’ would be required. Or would we be using the wrong terminology. Ringleader implies intent to myself and obviously you as well. Instigator or instigators would better fit the scenario of a angry out of control situation becoming violent.

If the police conviscated the cell phones and computers of these girls, they will sure have more information of the precise text messages as evidence.

Their does not seem to be a dispute regarding the statement that Victoria was warned via text messaging by Mercades and Brittini Hardcastle that if she came to the house their was going to be trouble. As for the exact statement by Mercades that Brittni H. was going go beat her up and she was not going to stop it, should be on the phone. If the messages were not deleted (whether intentional or just because people do delete messages after conversations everday) than this would be further evidence this indeed was done with forthought and premeditation. Perhaps, if this goes to trial this information will be released to the public. Further back up would be Kayla’s admitting this on tape. Also, the girl drving the car that Victoria was in would have been privy to what was being written to Victoria. I will have to look up the affidavits given by the victim, and other to refresh my memory on what was said specifically. Although, Phil seems to have done this himself.

When Victoria walked into that room and April confronted her the camera was rolling. Why if this was not anticpated would you want to tape a verbal confrontation. The camera was in perfect postiion from the get go. No dispute April and Victoria were in the room. Brittini H was standing at the bedroom door, along with whomever was doing the taping at that time. Also, picture not clear but a blond head shows up in front of the camera for a split second. A clearler picture, such as the police would have technology to provide, would be need to determine exactly who that was. Since their were only two blondes their you would have to deduce if was either Cara Murphy or Mercades. If Cara Murphy was video taping at that time this would further narrow down the possibilities.
Of course we all saw their was a lot of encouragement to hit Victoria. Brittni Hardcastle stating “hit her”, “hit her” with a tone of anticipation and then of course the key word “Elmer” which we now know is a boy. The right button was pushed and April started swinging.

Then the incident continues in the living room. Victoria after being beaten by April, states “Mercades please give me your phone” and Mercades reply “Did I tell you not to go” repeated “did I tell you not to go”. Victoria states “Mercades I thought you were my friend” crying at this point from the jump she just sustained from April and the barrage of insults flung by the other girls.

At this point Victoria and Mercades were facing each other and April Cooper is coming up from behind stating “give her the phone” and you “brought this all on yourself sweetie, you have no one to blame but yourself”. Kayla Hassel walks between answering phone stating “Can I call you back”. All of these comments were stated in a very calm, condescending manner toward the victim. So it was actually April who said give her the phone. This I do not think can be disputed it is on tape and the voice came from where April was standing Not Mercades and certainly not Kayla who was on the phone.

During this time their is someone, can not really distinguish who, stating they need more lighting. I am not sure whos voice this is however, two out of four girls were not on the tape at this time Brittany Mayes and Cara Murphy. So it had to be one or the other who said this. This would be further prove of the need to choregraph the video with concern for the quality of the taping. If it was not meant to be shown or posted. Why bother. Everyone there could see with their own eyes what was happening. Further evidence that the beating was planned and premeditated.

Phil just being factual by what you can actually see and here on tape. Their is no room for disputing these facts. So in total agreement with you. To much lights, camera and action to not be premeditated.

No show of fear or any concern for the victim by any of the girls at any point. No heeding to the pleas from Victoria for the phone. Except for April Cooper saying this. This would lead me to assume that at this point April Cooper thought she had done what she wanted to do. By no means sticking up for the girl, no way, just stating the facts.

The way Kayla Hassel so calmy answers the phone and says “Can I call you back?” It was if nothing was even happening. No emotion, basically nothing. Of course Brittini H. could be heard during this part as well making statements. Hard to make that part out.

Will discuss this with you later. Trying to state nothing but what was clearly seen and you could Hear on the tape.

One other thing it was Brittini H. not Mercades, as I have seen stated somewhere, heading towards the partially open front door. Another fact the door was ajar. That would imply that this started the minute the girls walked through the front door and went into the bedroom. In order to get into place, noone stopped to close the door. This was done however after the beatings began and the camera was rolling. (Don’t know what you think about that observation Phil please respond.)

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December 14, 2008

Phil

Again one of the biggest statements is just before April throws the first punch someone says (thinkk its BM)
“I thought you were going to fight “. Again i ask people to please listen for yourselves . They were expecting April to fight’ certainly more evidence that some type of plan was involved .

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December 14, 2008

gompertz

First of all, let me start, I have some reading to catch up on.

What I think of the ideas just advanced by Phil and Amy let me get back there is a lot.

Electronica it is difficult to deal with hurt feelings and there has been a lot of emotion concerning this case from day one. There is nothing you can do about that and I certainly don’t think anyone could say you made it worse. I have been reading your comments from the beginning, even before I started posting, and I always found your ideas interesting and valuable. I think others will agree with me about that.

I think you not only provide a lot of important insights but also I think you have been a positive influence on people here and by making us look at things from different perspectives you help people to find points of agreement and so you bring people together and you don’t make it worse. No way you need to blame yourself if people don’t get along, we will just have to try harder and not give up.

Since you have been doing this for so long, you must enjoy it and there is no reason for you to stop over what others say to each others. The only reason I can see for you to post less if it interferes with important things like school work.

Because I had a really rough night I’m going to have some breakfast and watch some football before I start looking into the rest of the recent posts.

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

First of all, unless Santa brings me a big fat check to pay off my house ( from all the publicity had to hire a high priced attorney) I won’t be able to drop the cvil case, but maybe the safety net you mention can be dealt with a different way, if they know we have the situation against him and I haven’t pushed it anymore, well maybe the corruption will now be kept to a minimum, just this idea furiates me. I mean my daughter was treated like some toothless hilibily that doesn’t know anything ( yes I know it was cruel the statement, but as I mentioned before I hate the south!

Amyv,
Its funny that you have the same idea I was thinking from the beginning, Bootcamp. Although I wouldn’t want it here in Polk County, I hope you give me that one please. Are you saying Mercades was on the phone? It is clear as day in the video that KH had her phone, maybe its clearer to me because I am her mom and I know what her phone looks like ( and maybe because I hated the phone cover so badly, I could never forget it) You can see her texting on it as well. I respect your opinion and will not disrespect you for having one, but I also stand by my statements BH was answering and texing Tori not Mercades. Also, yes they have the computers, phone, and the only camera that was used. Now, while a corrupted group could easily delete all messages posted oon the computer that may have led up to this ( not excuses only facts) the nice thing about cell phones is this, when you delete your messages, they don’t go away. Oh no, they are kept in cyberspace where the provider can pull them when needed.
Also, I wasn’t going to bring up the night that Newman and I had this conversation, but its been eating away at me for awhile and I have to get it off my chest, so here it goes.
My mom called me one night and woke kalina and I up at 10pm , she was like hey have you seen Mercades’ cell? I was like no, what do you need that for? Then I hear Newman in the background, and I was like what the hell is he doing over there this late, she whispers I know Christina he woke me up, I have to go to work at 6am tomorrow : ( I saisd well, tell him to leave and come back tomorrow. She says I can’t do that Christina. A side note my mom has never been able to stand up for herself EVER! I hung up the phone. I didn’t call her back, I was trying to get Kalina back to sleep, please understand that since the death threats Kalina is scared to go anywhere without me PERIOD! SHe is always behind me. Newman calls me, ” Mary says you came and got Mercades’ phone, and you need to bring it to me tonight,I then told him I did not come and get her phone, after you arrested her I came and got her car, so I could come to the hearing the next day, because I have car problems, maybe its in her car somewhere being that you just grabbed her straight out of the car, I’ll see if its there and call you tomorrow. He says ” Oh no, if you don’t hand over that phone tonight I am coming to arrest you, I did curse at him but here’s what was really said ” you’re not getting shit tonight, I am in bed with my small child I don’t even know if its there. Okay, suit yourself I’m on my way. I hung up on him, and now by this time my blood was boiling that he had no consideration for my 62 year old mother, nor my 6 year old child that had school the next day. My mom calls me like one last plea or something, with him standing by her apparently because he obviously heard what I told her because he reported it, only he wrote it up as if I told him directly, I told my mom you tell him to do his dam job between normal hours 9-5 and to stop barging into your house at 10pm demanding to take pictures, taking your car ( yeah he demanded her car as well, my poor mother was crying didn’t know how the heck she was going to get to work in 8 hours : ( ) I did say if he thinks I am going to wake up and Kalina walk outside at 10 look through her car and come over he can go f*** himself. Poor Kalina heard my mom crying that I was going to get arrested, after we hung up she peaded with me ” Mommy just go look, I don’t want you to get arrested” my heart stopped, I didn’t call that ass whole back ( sorry but he is) I called the station and asked them to send out a deputy. There were 2 that came, I went out and found her phone and had it on a chair right by the front door in plain view, the one deputy put his hand right on it as we talked, he says look if you say you don’t have it, you don’t have it we will leave and there will be no search, we can’t arrest you for that. I told look I never said I didn’t have it, I said I don’t know if its in her car or not. Another side note, this night was like 2 or 3 days after Mercades’ arrest, it was not like she got arrested at 9 and they wanted the phone the same day, in fact she was arrested in the afternooon around 1 or so days prior to this. I know I had a potty mouth that night and in front of my daughter and I am ashamed of that, but he was not right.

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

Phil,
Can you explain what you mean by Mercades’ warning was Crypted? She warned her in person while they were in the front yard, allowed her a guided entrance in to get her things, after seeing AC and BH why would Tori want to go back? If it was me, I’d rather catch a ride with Dorsette to the nearest shelter than to go back inside there.
Also, if we were to go off your theory about ” I thought you were going to fight me” then that would mean Tori knew as well and that she wanted to fight them. I don’t think you meant that did you?

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

And Electronia,

Nobody is to blame for our not getting along but her and I…don’t sweat the small stuff girl, you are a smart teen that one day is going to be somebody important : )

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

Sorry in all the talk I failed to mention that I handed the phone over to the deputy that was here, you probably already know that being that he admits I called and handed it over to the others.

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December 14, 2008

Phil

Christina It was not” I thought you were going to fight me “Someone said to April I thought you were going to fight” . And Christina you are ignoring my arguments about wether it was feasable that Mercades was not aware of the earlier threats . I will say this again and again. If she could warn Victoria ,than she had a legal responsibility to warn her invited guest that they were not allowed to assult Victoria in her house . this is what makes her guilty of accessorie of all the complains against her …If she did this than she could claim her innocense .If the only debate you have is about the “cryptic iWarning” in every thing i have said in the last 2 statments than I feel I have made a lot of solid arguments . All the girls reactions especialy Mercades”s since it was her own home dosen’t make any sense if the fight just happened spontaniously there would have to be so much coincidese that it borders on near impossible. Again When she was warned that Brit H would be her up and Mercades would not stop her . This is exactly what happened . Are you saying that the message was not sent or that Mercades was not aware that it has been sent. Earlier statemenst says that she knew but didn’t send that message. .Also when Mercades sent her the text that everyting is cool we just have to talk . Lured Victoria in .Again is Mercades claiming that she didn’t send this didn’t knoew it was sent . or that there was no discussion amongst Mercades and Brit h about the text in general . This also would make no sense .Mercades herself made this claim “i told you not to come in .She obvisiously meant see you just got hit and I warned you .She clearly understoodthat there was a danger and threat to Victoria and did not do what was legally responsible to do which was to tell her guest to leave if they were going to start trouble.

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December 14, 2008

gompertz

Like I said I had a rough night and still very unsteady

Christina just reading your last few posts, without getting into the details, I just had the feeling that, yes, it would be the kind of thing that people would want to read about, and you should not give up on the book, if it deals with issues like this.

Electronica, once again don’t blame yourself for anything. Just keep doing what you’re doing.

Phil, first as for the “two ringleader” theory, who knows, from where I sit anything might be true, partially true, or not true at all. But let us assume it is true. Then why does one rinngleader, BM have the foresight to exclude herself from the picture and become the director, and the other “ringleader”, as you call her, is right in the middle of the picture where everyone can see her? Yes, ofor a ringleader, Mercades seems pretty clueless, doesn’t she? Not as clever as the other ringleader. I don’t know, just guessing, but ringleaders tend to know how to cover their racks and not sit there in the middle of things giving the impression she is enjioying it and I admit that is hpw Mercades looked in th picture. Just saying that if she was part of the plan, she would have done some more intelligent planning and I don’t get the impression Mercades is lacking intelligence, judging from her mother.

But let me impress on you, Phil and others, that I don’t think the “eithor-or” applies to the wy we have to judge the actions of the various participants. People tend to argue like this: “Either Mercades was dreadfully afraid of Hardcastle OR she was guilty of planning and instigating the act. Judging from the video she wasn’t afraid. Therefore she is guilty of planning and instigating the act. QED” Do you see why I don’t think we can get the truth by reasoning like that? I don’t think that life is reducible to either-or, and this case especially, we have seen reports and videos that try to make sense of things, and the more rhey look at the details the more fuzzy things seem to get.

Let me tell you for example that I just loked up the 911 call Victoria made that I havent listened to in months, and I see I have yo be careful how I say this. Let me pretend I am a dfense attorney for one of the miscteants and look for inconsistencies in the victims account. If you look you can find them. For instance Victoria says there were 6 girls and then adds “maybe more.” What could a defense attorney do with that? And not knowing the house number? Please don’t anyone accuse me of bashoing the victim when I bring this up. I am only saying you can find discrepancies and raise questioned whenever you look at details and the truth is rarely “either-or.”
So did the victim get the story wrong because there are points that are unclear in her account? Only if you go by either-or reasonign would you find fault with her story. So I dont apply either-or because it is the kind of thing I leave to lawyers who are as we know sleazy and not concerned with truth.

My account account of Mercades’ action or inaction is also not about either-or. I have to look at what happened to her to make her put herself in the picture looking so unconcerned. That is where the troubles she had before come in, and I believe that the trouble with the gentleman called Jake (see how respectful I can be?) provide a clue to what kind of trouble. And that case is still pending.

If there was planning, and I believe there was planning, that still leaves open the question how much and by whom. We know now that BM and Ac were thre ones who were most inclined to violence toward the victim because of the prior incident. So there is two who formulate the plan. KH and Cara, I don’t know enough. Kayla looks veryinscrutable on the mug shot, doesnt she. Did Cara hold the camera when BM get in her 5 shots? Again idk. The two people who I think were most ripe for manipulation were Mercades and Hardcastle. BH because look. she is very angry in her mugshot, she is angry in thevideo. Why so angry when none of this directly concerned her? Simply because she has anger issues that they knew could be exploited. Happens all the time, you have a problem with someone you go find an angry bully who looking for n excuse to take out their anger and you whisper a few things about the intened target and the blly ggoes to work, and some bullies do like to have a convenient excuse bwforw they go to work. What about Mercades? She was angry and upset because things have not been going well. She is a sensitive person who cares fgor sick animals. Now, I have known a lot of PETA people (I’m one) and some are good people and some are, to be honest nuts, but all share one quality, and that is that they are sensitive, more sensitive than average, and simetimes too sensitive for their own good. Again a character trait that can be exploited. Whisper, whisper…

Why was Mercades there? Ciuld be becuse it’s her house. Who texts who there are different accounts of tht somme I find on videos by Utube detective guy. Nothing convincing but lots of theories and if there’s nothing convincing I cant convict anyone. Was Mercades too complacent, of course. Did she lure Victoria? To the place she was staying and where she was going anyway? Noody has said Mercades doesnt deserve punishment, how many times we have to be told nobody says she doesnt deserve punishment, including her mother says she deserves punishment.

I havent looked at all the things you brought up but just why was Victoria so unconcerned when she is in rthe bedroom and we can all see AC ready to strike (because we have hindsight and she didnt). Didnt she just confront those angry girls outside and argue with them? Was that angry confronation part of the luring proces? Why didnt Victoria take a cue from that confrontation and see anger could lead to violence? Notice when talking to AC she looks like its just an ordinary conversation she takes out what looks like a cogarette very calm and civilized and only when AC uses the word “whore” Victoria is genuinely offended and alarmed. So, nothing about that angry conversation outside led her to believe she was in any danger. Just a lot of angry talking. Why if Victoria didnt understand the threat level, why assume Mercades understood it at that point? Even with all the anger there is nothng that would lead you to assume there is a threat. Phil, this last part I wrote in ahurry and Im not saying it is an argument one way or other just ant to know how youinterpret it.

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December 14, 2008

Robert Stevens

AmyV, as an ex military man. Boot camp does sharpen and improve people, but it does not change them. I stand by, if they do not do jail time, they will wish they did. If they could go to work and respond to critics “Leave me alone, I did my time.” that’ll mean something.

One request I have for PCSO and the other depratments that have been offended by some statements of The 8’s parents. First realize it’s not the teens. Don’t drawe out plead bargains to match how you were offended by parents and lawyers.

I do hope some of the mishaps of the 8’s lawyers have them stand in front of review boards. mainly
1. MJ Lopez
2. Britiney Mayes’s lawyer if he did know of Britiney’s threats towards Tori.

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December 14, 2008

gompertz

OMG I must get back to the spellcheck.

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December 14, 2008

gompertz

Phil regarding your point that someone shouldn’t profit from another’s pain. I agree in principle, but really isnt that done all the time? People write about horrible crimes with victims who were murdered, sometimes tortured, and the books sell a lot of copies, and someone is makingmoney on them. Soldiers write about wars in which they have taken lives and Spielberg makes money doing movies about war and even the holocaust. Now, in NY we have something called the Son of Sam law aiming to keep criminals from profiting from their crimes and it is a good law every decent person supports and I believe Florida does have something like that. And I don’t think Christina’s book would come under the cases covered by laws preventing people from profiting from crimes, because what she is writing about covers things not related to the beating or Victoria’s pain but I think she is covering how her own family has been impacted by it. And that just is very different from “profiting from the victim’s pain.” With all the explanations she has provided about these matters in response to questions we have all raised, whether you like the answers or not, you can judge for yourself whether it would make interesting reading.

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December 14, 2008

Scott

Victoria Lindsay. Victim. I just thought I would mention that.

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December 14, 2008

Robert Stevens

Scott, I agree with you 100%.

Geompertz, In regards to spelling. here I am sub par also. For some reason this page slows down my server. So I am kind of in a hurry to get off of this page. The people are cool, I could see why Christina is addicted to talking to you guys. She does have a high opinion of this crowd.

Back to what you just brought up geompertz. What you say is another reason I don’t get the way things are going. I’ll have to look it up sometime or ask my para legal friend. Unless I am wrong Christina can prophit off of this, but only with the aproval of The Victim. Is it me or does Christina have a never ending habit of today stepping on the hand, that is connected to the ass , that she’ll have to kiss tomorrow. Like I posted with in the last hour, I hope that Mercades does not have to pay for her mother’s tragic addiction. Maybe she could redo John Cougars “The Authority Song”

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

Tori is the victim in the beating I agree 100% yes. Let me ask all of you something…what is the topic of this blog? I am really not trying to be a butt head, but I have to say this. The topic here is me Mercades’ mother files lawsuit, I have never went over to any of the support sites for her saying oh boo hoo I am a victim of the Sheriff. I stay right here. If you don’t want to hear about Mercades being a victim of something fine, but at the very least I have been victimized by him. While everyone in here supports Tori, the topic is about me, and I came to set things straight. Tori’s name is nowhere in the topic. Its suppose to be about the lawsuit. If you feel insulted that I am claiming to be a victim ( not in the beating) but a completely different beating ( mental anguish) what can I do? Should someone start a different blog here, as to not disrespect Tori? Am I not allowed to be a victim just because you’re scared people will forget about the tragedy with Tori? I find it impossible for anyone to forget about her, so no worries please.

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

And let me say this once again as I have in the past. My book was going to be about my family and our tragedy, I don’t need Tori’s approval because it wasn’t going to be about her at all. But I am thinking I will probably do something different, not a book.

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December 14, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina as I posted here an other places. It is fair to say from time to time you and other adults involved with this case have made comments that have stung your daughter’s image and liability. I am again advising you look into a way that you do not break “Consciousness of Guilt” and explain to the authorities the causes of The Parents and Lawyers flawed statements, with your point being “Don’t take out errors of a few on others that are not experienced in this form of trouble.” I think by the plead bargain you have to bring this point home.

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December 14, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –
Wow how these blogs fly when you step away from them. I honestly don’t know how anyone could keep up with more than this one.

I apologize from the bottom of my heart if my actions almost caused you not to blog here. I have always been open and honest with you about the way I feel about fighting in any fashion. That also includes war of the words. As I have found this can be more hurtful than physical pain. (experience from the past).

First of all you have done what no grown up on this blog has been able to do. Stop two grown woman who were acting worse than children in
Thier tracks. I would surely be a hypocrite if I preached to you about unnecessary fighting, and ways to avoid it. So I will back up my words with actions.

Yes, Christinia and I have behaved badly towards each other. This is a sign (not necesssarily a good one) of two stubborn women with teenage daughters. Although, we both have the best interests of teenagers at heart. We went about it totally the wrong way. So, I and as I can see Christina are willing to start fresh and try never to speak out of anger. I truelly does not do any good.

So see you did not make things worse. You are the only one that was able to stop this behavior. This shows me Christina (I hope you don’t mind if I speak for you) and I have the best interests of all teenagers at heart. Truely this has finaly put us on some common ground.

Thank you. Don’t ever stop blogging her. If you see me doing something again call me on it. O.K.

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December 14, 2008

christina garcia

This shows me Christina (I hope you don&rsquot mind if I speak for you) and I have the best interests of all teenagers at heart. Truely this has finaly put us on some common ground.

100% agreed

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December 14, 2008

Scott

Thanks Robert.

Fine Christina. Let’s get back to the lawsuit. But I I have seen Tori mentioned alot in this blog in ways unrelated to your lawsuit. I hope your lawsuit at the very least is a slap in the face to the sheriff and makes him and his department realize they are not above the law and are supposed to do their jobs and help the public.

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December 14, 2008

Scott

Amy, I agree with you 100% about you and Christina. Kudos to Electronica.

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December 14, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina, I am sorry I broke my own rule. What all ready is, is. However I do stand behind what I said about you have to stick with your goals. Do believe in yourself.

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December 14, 2008

Amyv

Christinia-

It is hard to answer all of the questions or comments posted since 20 can be posted by the time you read them all, you forget some of what was said on some of the ones before.

So, let me start with your first post. Christina if the corruption in Polk County is so high, why do you feel it will die down enough now to keep you and your family safe? Believe me I know all about worrying about the mortgage payment and every other bill that has to be unavoidably paid. If you have read my earlier post you will know this was a huge burden on myself and my family when I fell ill. This is an added stress that can just about drive you crazy with worry.

However I was forced with a situation, not like yours, where I had to make a decision about the mortgage vs. what would be best for all concerned in my family. When I tell you this I can not tell you how much grief and stress this caused me. So, I had to put the bill issue aside. I had to. It was just to much to sit up all night worrying about besides the other issues going on in my life.

If you read my blogs I am not savy as far as law enforcement goes, or all of the criminal justice proceedings. Becoming more educated though. This alone should tell you I have nothing to do with the sheriff or anyone else to do with this case. I don’t think I could blog here if I did.

So,when I say this it has nothing to do with any personal feelings towards any of them. Just personal feelings from what I have been through and having a teenage daughter as well.

Consider first and foremost what is best for your daughters. I have been stubborn about an issue with my daughter and had to back off when she pleaded and cryed to me she had had enough. I had to back off from some people I felt did her extreme emotional damage. My stubborness and anger were effecting my judgement as to really what was best for her. So I backed off even though I really, really wanted to continue. Of course you have much more information than
we do as to what laws were broken and so on.
Just a thought to share with you. Of course your decision is your own as it should be.

Of course everyone was extremely anger when word of your law suit came out. This is a natural response, I think, when a crime is involved. Especially, one that was emotionally charged as this one. However, if you feel strongly enough that you were wronged only you know what is best for you.

You know I have always been leary about the corruption theory. Because at times it seemed to me to far fetched and to wide spread. This being said I think you will agree with me on this. Of course I know what city you live in and you know I live a few hours away. This much information I have put out their. Do you remember the recent case, caught on tape where an Orlando officer shoved a woman down some stairs at Church Street Station? You could see it plain as day. No room for any questions. What happened to this officer nothing. Civil suit nothing. So I do know that corruption is out their. I could not believe this woman did not get justice for this crime since their was no way to dispute it happened.

Now, I will get to my point with this. How many times have you seen a civit suit against an officer turn out favorable for the victim. Actually
I will address that question to everyone on this blog. I would say slim to none. So goes for doctors. I have heard of some malpractice suits that I would have thought would be airtight and once again nothing. Although, let me state some people will sue doctors over a hang nail. So let me be fair. Just something else to consider although, I am sure these are issues you are already aware of.

Do not take this in anyway as me trying to talk you out of the law suit. I have no doubt you will stand dead fast with this. Just make sure that the evidence you have is sufficient enough to warrant putting you and your family through additional stress. Only you can judge that one.
I sincerely dont know. I have been wordy I know. Just want you to know I am really trying to be sincere and my reasoning behind what I say.

Reply
December 14, 2008

Phil

To gomp ‘when you say Victoria didn.t seem to expect a to be hit i agree .Again i say over and over check the tape someone says to April I thought you were going to fight . Victoria is the only one who shows suprise .Mercades didn’t even move off the couch .Does that sound like a spontanious fight just happened around her . you would think there would have been more of a suprise.reaction instead of instant condemation
.Gomp says “If there was planning, and I believe there was planning, that still leaves open the question how much and by whom
“.Good question i certainly .I cannot say what role each had in the planning . But to say Mecades was not in the know just dosen’t make any sense .Then as i say that makes her legally guilty of more than just of not reacting when the violence started.
As far as Christinas lawsuit and book ideas .I have not commented on this in a while and unless someone as yourself ask me about it i will not . I am trying my best to get some sort of mutal respect blog thing happening with Christina .So far going better . I think her spin is to fine of a distiction as her book thing is . if she wrote this book with all proceede going towards a woman’s shelter or youths against violence then i would like to see what she would have to say . If she is getting paid ,than as mother of one of the defendants than I will never support her getting one cent.Gomp there is a big difference with Spilberg (who is jewish ) wrighting about the holicost than A child of Goring doing the same.I will not change my mind regarding what i think about her actions in these circumstances. But there is still a whole lot of other slants and views that Christina and i can debate with respect . With me this is not one of them.

Reply
December 14, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina I am sorry, maybe your lawyer knows something I don’t. I believe you are right in your law suit, but I hate the timing. : ( .

Reply
December 14, 2008

Scott

Phil, I agree with you that certainly was not a spontaneous assault on Tori.

P.S. – I knew Amy and Christina could act civil with each other and they finally are. 🙂

Reply
December 14, 2008

Phil

AmyV and Christinaa nd Electronica
Merry Christmas what an amazing time of year .Well done.

Reply
December 14, 2008

Amyv

Christinia –

I feel as though I have to blog these issues seperately as they can get wordy. Also, we do have to try to gain some trust from each other about our true sincereity.

Out of any options I can think of Boot Camp seems to make the most sense. I have stated my reasons for this and you seem to agree. Off to a good start. Don’t faint now I also agree Polk County would be a very unwise choice. For everyone involved. I do not know if this punishment is an option though.

As to your question about the telephone. No it is clearly obvious that Kayla was on the phone. Like I said before if it is not clear on the tape I do not specifically name these girls.

As for the texting leading up to the attack, I do not know. I think that will come down to she said she said. Since that will be a hard one to prove since it was actually Mercades phone, I don’t know which way that would go. What was Kayla’s testimony towards this one. I know you said she said their was a sort of tug of war between Mercades and Brittini over the phone (not your exact words.) This could be interpreted one of two ways. One Mercades was actually trying to get the phone so B.H. could not send these texts or two both wanted to take turns. The later is what was reported by Victoria (although not physically there) as to them both texting her.

No matter how you try to delete something off of the computer, it can be retrieved. Short of a volcanic eruption. My nephew recently graduated with a degree in (sorry getting tired) some kind or computer analyist specialty. He educated me on that one when I had so many problems with mine. So this information should be easily attainable by the police.

As for how the police handled the incident with the telephone. You might not like this one but we have agreed to be honest. They do not have a nine to five job. When the prosecutor requests something I believe it has to be ordered by the judge. This was a key piece of evidence and since people do tamper with evidence after a crime you can expect them to come anytime of day or night. You do have a legal responsibility or you can be charged with withholding evidence.

As to your daughter being put through this once again my heart goes out to that poor child. For she is truely an innocent victim in all of this. Since, related to Mercades she probably has been put through a lot. Every bit of it undeserved and I wish you had somewhere she could go until after the trial where she will not be exposed to this.

However,this will be another sad consequence of all of this. She will probably be picked on and none for a while as Brittini’s little sister. These crimes have so many victims you do not even realize until someone points them out. My heart goes out to her. Another reason why this whole incident was cruel to so many innocent people. I am sure family members of all of these girls have been subjected to this and it is not their fault.

I remember a statement made by Victorias mother. Stating how this had effected her little sister as well. My prays go out to all of them.

Reply
December 14, 2008

gompertz

Phil, good point about Goring’s kid, wish I had thought of it myself. lol
What you and Scott say is undeniably true, there was planning, it was not spontaneous and Mercades probably knew something was up, but it doesn’t mean she knew exactly what. Victoria and Mercades were good friends, even though they had some kind of problem. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had common attitudes about a lot of things. Like Victoria saying she would beat people and not realize the significance of words like that if spoken to the wrong person. Maybe Mercades was like that too and didn’t fully understand that when the others said there would be “trouble” they meant something really extreme. So it is possible to be in on a scheme without fully understanding the full extent of it. But you are right that legally she may be held responsible on technical grounds where her state of mind is less important than the fact of her physical presence, in her own residence, and i think that is one point Robert Stevens is making and for her sake I hope her lawyer is competent.

My own point of view is since I am not looking at it from a legal perspective I can look at psychological states and not have to say it has to be one or the other, guilty or not guilty. I interpret Mercades as someone who is easily swayed by emotion and prone to be indecisive. And that is not incompatible with strength of character because human beings can be complicated and possess contradictory qualities. I have compared her to Peter in the N.T. Very impulsive, could be a betrayer or a hero depending on external forces. Now with Peter there was a powerful force that moved him to become a very great hero after his time of weakness. Unfortunately for Mercades there is no great spiritual revival going on right now and the forces moving her were taking her in the opposite direction. She is in the middle of this culture that values respect and violence is acceptable in defense of your honor. And some of those that represent that culture got close to her and she went with it until it was too late. But it is not too late to start over and find true spiritual strength because the spirit is still there for you if you want.

You may wonder where I get this from since I’m looking at this situation from far away. Sometimes I get closer to the truth by looking at things from a distance more than from close up. I used to read Topix and there were many people who knew the people involved or claimed to know them. And the more I read their blogs the more I became confused because they all spoke past each other and didn’t present a coherent picture, so I didn’t know what to believe. The people on Topix who gave me the most plausible explanations were the ones who were farther away from the center of the storm. Often you can see more from a distance than right in the middle of it. So as I see it Mercades certainly knew something was up but not an instigator. When I see her sitting comfortably on the couch I see resignation and indecision but not malice. No she’s not surprised because she has probably seen brutal fights like everyone else. In NY the violence is the same or worse but it is more controlled and more hidden. In Polk County maybe there are fewer places to hide and kids are habituated to it by seeing it out in the open so often. Anyway that is my two cents and I may be wrong.

Reply
December 14, 2008

gompertz

Can anyone tell me why when I post on this blog it takes forever for the posting to execute? I don’t think it’s the computer.

Reply
December 14, 2008

Phil

To Christina
You have read my opinions on Mercades and i am sure that it cannot be easy to read . We exchanged Bolgs where you told me that you were not here to attack me out of hand but would defend your daughter and point out things where you think i am wrong . So far you have done this and that respect thing we were talking about earlier is increasing on my side . Not that I think you need my respect but there is now even more common ground amazing how this can work even when people don’t agree

Reply
December 14, 2008

gompertz

Phil, it may be that Mercades was luring Victoria back to the house but it doesn’t follow that she fully understood the extent of what was going to happen. I do believe that something was planned and it looks like BM and AC were involved in the planning ever since the incident three weeks before. Then they got BH involved and probably Kayla who had a grudge against Victoria but stayed a bit in the background. And how much Mercades knew and when did she know it has to be a matter of conjecture though I never doubted that she did know something. And I suggest that she was so immersed in her own misery that she closed her heart to her friend’s suffering.

Betrayal can hurt worse than the beating and the pain lasts longer. Is it possible Mercades experienced betrayal from someone she loved and trusted? And could that explain her indifference to her friend’s pain? Explaining it is not excusing it, and I don’t know whether a court would accept an apology. On another blog it has been suggested that an apology now would be self-incriminating and that might be true. Whatever the court decides it is important for Mercades to realize the full extent of the wrong she did to Victoria for her own benefit, and to feel remorse fully and deeply, for her own sake and for Victoria.

Now when Peter felt remorse we have to consider the whole picture. Here was a person who had already experienced the power of that higher presence that guided his life and that of his contemporaries. We are all influenced by the society we live in more than we think. Peter was part of a group of people who lived in the Spirit and his fall was temporary because the Spirit was there for him, and his destiny was already ordained. I suppose at that point he could either choose to accept his destiny or refuse in, when refusing would have made hi another Judas. So you might say he had greatness thrust upon him and there was no middle way. Either-or.

I don’t think people like Mercades has that starkly clear a choice, and neither do most of us. We are confronted with a world where the meaning of traditional values is severely called into question , not only religious values but all values. Look at the lives of these kids, parties and drinking and aimless amusements of all kinds. That is the big problem today, life doesn’t offer any meaningful choices and we don’t have the opportunity to be heroes like Peter or Paul even if we wanted to. As for myself I only developed a sense of purpose rather late in life, when I was much older than Mercades and her friends. What my values are now, well you may get a glimpse of what I believe in but I have a lot of plans for doing good things that I don’t talk about, for one thing because people will think I’m crazy. So I keep a lot to myself and how much I will succeed remains to be seen and a lot depends on my own efforts.

As for Mercades, this incident has placed her in a position where she will have a choice to accept or refuse the challenge to look deeply into her own heart and be hionest with herself. And neither you nor I can read her heart though we can have our opinions. I think we can help her make the right decision by being positive and that is true if she even reads our ideas or not because I believe in that Cosmic Consciousness. And you and I and Mercades and all of us are part of it and it reads our hearts and it really helps if we are charitable in our views. I believe that is true and it remains true completely apart from my crazy and impractical ideas, which might come to nothing but the Cosmic Consciousness remains.

Anyway I don’t think most of us are called upon to be a mighty hero like Peter, and though Mercades faces a big challenge it is not like Peter’s challenge. Mercades doesn’t have to become like an Apostle or a Prophet but she does have to face herself and accept the need to make the right choice from now on. Then she can live a good life, hopefully become a good wife and mother and have a career if she wants it. In today’s world I think that kind of person is more important than being an apostle or prophet and she can be that person.

Reply
December 15, 2008

Phil

Gomp
i had no doubt that you of all people would appreciate the the Goring example. i have the advantage of reading your post alot longer than you have read mine.The reason i believe she is the instigator and not just a follower . Goes mainly to the Email that Mercades sent saying” no everthing will be alright we just have to talk “. this to me is Mercades activly partisapating in making sure victoria got there.
There is a reason I have been trying to make this point for a while and is goes directly to the last blog you posted to me . If peter did not admit how bad his actions were to his own soul then there would have been no greatness,He spent the rest of his life trying to correct the uncorecttable The betayal of his master with his denial. . If as i understand it as posted by Christina, Mercades wants to apoligise and make ammends How can we believe her when what she wants to apoligize is not the whloe truth behind her betrayal of Victoria. .Mercades wants to apoligise for not doing anything to stop it as she knows she should of but didn’t because she was afraid of BH. .and had no idea that anything was going to happen. Gomp do you believe that this sufficently covers what she is responsible for . In most cases sentencing always takes in true remorse and a defendants acceptance of there actions . it also tends to punish harsher those who do not. When the couts fail in this the defandant will uasally suffer some way down the road . Mercades like Peter Or my favorite NT person Saul who became Paul has an oppurtunity to take this awful mess and see if she can do great thing . this starts with acceptance of her actions and non actions . betrayal is always the worst crime and will haunt Victoria long after The bruises from BH and April are gone.

Reply
December 15, 2008

Phil

To Gomp Good points .I knew when I started talking about ring leaders that there would be alot of room to speculate . I am drawing my conclusions certainly based on my own pre-concieved ideas . One of the main points in doing this was to get people such as yourselves to talk about wether the assult was spontainous or some sort of planned happening . Stating these opinions allows us to really discuss the Phycolgy of those involved. Another possibility that also could make sense is that there was really no Ringleader and they all pushed and pulled on one another as the day or week went on.
As far as my overly dramatic greatness comment . The simplest of us can do great things .without ever being noticed . People work at shelters,volunteer as coaches .Or everyday there are people in prison who do a truly great thing they turn there life arround against the greatest of chalenges . I really agree with your last half of your latest post.Being a good mother and unselfishly giving love .Being able to hold your head high
all the really important stuff, this is also what i am talking about .I do not know if this is possible for anyone of these defandants if they do not accept what thay have done .
I also feel that all apologys should wait till after sentencing so Tthat Victoria and her family know that they come from the heart and not as an attempt to lessen punishment . This will also help evryone get to where they need to go

Reply
December 15, 2008

christina garcia

Amyv,

I understand and respect your opinion, and believe me I have thought about just selling and getting out. But let me share this with you, I lived in a 300k house my father died in, after divorcing and much more happened I sold that house, took the equity and bought the home I live in CASH. Oh I was so happy and felt so secure, I could work part time if I wanted to, or work from home. There just wasn’t very much for me to pay, Thanks to my Daddy! Right? Now, I have a very emotional bond to this home, and believe me its no mansion, I guess its just the idea that I had no payments, I had freedom to spend more time with my girls and didn’t have to work my ass off just to get by. Now, its different. And I do blame him, if you could only let me explain more details about the lawsuit, you’d see it in no way will harm Tori, its not about her in any way or her family. There is prrof that he harmed me( emtionally) on video, two or three times on TV,not to mention the rest of the media plugs. If I lose my house, I’ll be even mmore driven to get him to pay and get him out. You see, I don’t just want money, I want him removed from office, its funny I never wtach Bananza, but I was flipping through the channels yesterday and saw some family called ” The Carlisles” or something like that?? They took on a Sheriff that was very bad, he said I never thought I’d shoot at one of these, holding the Badge. I feel the same, of course not to shoot but I never thought I’d be going to court against one. And Amy I don’t blame you in any way for being a little reserved on my statements about the law suit. And its okay girl, I am not mad about it and never will be, if you were in my shoes, I can’t promise I’d believe you had I not gone through it myself. When you speak to me like this, I just want to gobble up every word you say and have more discusions : ) with you. I know we won’t agree on everything and that’s okay. I just believe there is room for us to be victims of him without steeping on Tori’s toes (so to speak.)

Reply
December 15, 2008

christina garcia

And just for the record Mercades does have a burden kind of like what you’re saying, you see I am italian and Catholic, but I allowed Mercades to go to a Penocotil ( forgive me for misspelling) with my mom, when she was 3 or 4 she had a dream of my little Yorike rising up into Heaven, do you know he died the next day? : ( I have had the same happen to me in thoughts and dreams my ex inlaws thought I cursed thier family because i told people at different time who was going to die…back to Mercades, Maybe this will be hard for some to swallow, but Mercades has been told that she has a calling on her life, that she is to become a prophet and help people. My mom has the same thing, we will be in a store, and I use to be so ambarrssed when she’d pull a stranger to the side..one day she pulled a man to the side and said ” you are out of line, and you need to go home to your wife” man…I flew out the door, I was so scared he would yell at her. As I watched from the car, he started crying ” a Grown man” he had been cheating on his wife. Anyway, Mercades has everyone including my mom on her butt about all this, because the church told her she had a calling and then she gets involved with something like this.

Phil,
I am only responding to your comment and am not saying this is how things went in anyway, but if you think maybe Mercades knew that ” something” was going down, why did she try and stop her from going back into the house? What if she was told after she told Tori to come home and talk ( if that was Mercades) that there would be trouble and therefore met Tori outside and told her it wasn’t a good idea to come in and to leave? In your eyes would she still be accused of planning this attack or being part of? Or maybe she saw how mad BH was getting the closer Tori came and it scared her, therefore warning Tori not to go in maybe changing her mind about the confrontation If your theory was correct. What are your feelings on this?
Respectfully,
Christina

Reply
December 15, 2008

Phil

To Christina .Really interesting argument you have claiming that you have a right to say that you are or were a victim .Even 2 weeks ago I would have played the I am outraged card followed by a few unflattering jabs at yours or Mercades expense .What you say to me makes sense if you are trying to state your case that the lawsuit is justified than you have to be able to present why you see yourself as a victim and how you and your family suffered as a result of what you feel is somebody’s elses actions . Again correct as i have pointed out the Blog is about you .I have repeated way to many time that because of this then you should be prepared to hear things you may not want . This also apply to the rest of us .Saying that you were a victim does not say that you think Victoria was not a victim .Be careful though because in some of your earlier post in your anger or fustration you appeared to have come close .For us who do not agree (I will not go over the ‘s why i have said and re said those thoughts .}you will hear that you were not the victim ,Victoiria was the only victim .this is also different than saying you have no right to say you were a victim . Very important I am not saying that you have made this claim . Maby this is what Gomp has been trying to patiently explain to me for the last couple of weeks don.t know.

Reply
December 15, 2008

Phil

Cristina didn’t see your latest post before i resonded to your earlier one . The warning argument is a 2 way sword for both of us you say that shows she tried to stop it Where i say it shows she knew it was going to happen and didn’t stop it .. First off this argument put the onus on Victoria to stop or halt what others were going to do .The legal onus was on your daughter and the others .She should have told Brit M when it was first mentioned you can’t do this in my house .She invited these people into her home I see no evidence that either her or Kayla were afraid . so please tell me why didn’t she stop this. . .I will go again to the text theat Victoria receive after she asked if there was going to be trouble .Again the resonse was No we just have to talk . Why did mercades not text Or call Victoria and tell her to stay away until i have got rid of these people . Victoria was not greeted by Mecades telling her not to go in she was confronted By 3 very angry girls who all started yelling at Victoria. This is confirmed by the girl who drove her home .This girl also states that when she askes if Victoria could stay for a couple of hours till she found somewhere else to go BritH and Mercades according to the driver shrugged in what everyone thought was acceptance. At this point if Mercades was ao intent of warning her why would she not speak up at this point April is wating . Also at this point they just got rid of the only person who could have save Victoria at the time. Please do not forget she had no place where to go ,Even if she was not smart to go in was she just supossed to hit the streets with none of her belonings is that what Mercades meant.Gomp ,Scott myself and AmyV and countless others believe there was prior discussin and planning .To me it is inconcievable that with the emotin of these girls that they were not all talking about this ,With respect to Scott and Gomp what roles each played is open to dispute .

Reply
December 15, 2008

christina garcia

And Amy I have to respectfully disagree about Newman. He could’ve handles things differently. I would understand better if she had gotten arrested the same day and he needed to collect these things, but we are and were not suspects and deserved respect and he gave none.

Reply
December 15, 2008

christina garcia

Phil,
First, Tori was greeted by Mercades outside first, its in the papers I know there is alot of reading but its there, please don’t just go off of cut and pasted things from the media read the full discovery. And when she refused to leave yes she was presented with 2 other girls angry. Tell me something and please be honest I invite others to answer as well, if you were greeted by 3 angry men in your case or woman in a womans case or girl yelling at you to fing leave and other things, would you go back in the house after you had your things? And again the papers clearly stated that Mercades was pushed into saying yes she could stay, it is stated many times that Dorsette said ” she has nowhere else to go, please just let her stay long enough to find somewhere to go” if you haven’t seen this I will tell you the page number in the discovery. I feel so uncomfortable speaking like this about Tori, because I do feel so bad for her and I feel she is a victim, with no buts or excuses. It is so sad that she felt she had nowhere else to go but a place that she did know was a dangerous situation : ( I don’t want to blame her parents but then I don’t want to blame her either, she was a kid just like the rest of them and even through hard times should’ve felt like she could turn home. Teens these days including mine are very difficult because they have many more tools to get into trouble. As I type here on my computer I curse the day computers were made or the internet, all I had to play with was an Atari and toys in my room. I don’t blame youtube or myspace but they should both learn from this and while respecting people’s rights to speak they should have limits as to what is posted ( I am sorry to those who think otherwise) I don’t know about anyone here, but I couldn’t sit up 24 hours a day to watch my daughter on here. Do you know how easy it is for a minor to view something bad on there? All they have to do is click that they are over 18 and thats it. Did you hear about the boy who killed himself on some other site? Oh, it was so sad…people were acually encouraging him to do it.His father found him or maybe the cops but they found him in front of his laptop on his bed and they read all the comments made. What a waste of a life, we have to pull together and somehow back up and regroup ourselves as a whole for our childrens sake.

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December 15, 2008

Scott

Here is part of a post by Gompertz today on Mercades puzzling attitude towards her friend Victoria as she was getting assaulted and imprisoned om March 30, 2008.

“And I suggest that she was so immersed in her own misery that she closed her heart to her friend&rsquos suffering.

Betrayal can hurt worse than the beating and the pain lasts longer. Is it possible Mercades experienced betrayal from someone she loved and trusted? And could that explain her indifference to her friend&rsquos pain?”

Well said Gomp. You’ve hit on something here that is crucial as to why Mercades turned on Tori. I think Mercades own unhappiness played a major role in the goings on before and during the physical attack and emotional scarring of Tori. The bottom line is this never should have happened. But it did.

Reply
December 15, 2008

christina garcia

Okay, I understand that you guys don’t want to assume what was going on with the others and why they hit her or were part of it, but I must admit I am starting to feel like I’m watching some Inside Special Inside a Monster’s Mind or something with my daughter as the guest. As humans we tend to try and make things bigger or more than what they are, myself included. Yes, my kid has problems, but teenage problems, ex bf included. But I don’t like things going as if she was the mastermind and we’re trying to get into her mind to pick her brain…I don’t know if I said this right, does anybody understand what I’m trying to say??

Reply
December 15, 2008

Robert Stevens

Hi again Christina. here we go again. Maybe you missed my appologies, that I posted here, or just did not want to comment. I know my opions do walk a thin line with you.

I read it earlier here today, you post about Mercedes being a profit, and you knew I would not question that. In fact I think all the ducks were in a row, and may fall back into place. As things stand IMHO, Kayla and Cara or just one of them, more likely Kayla, will get the first oppertunity to go out and represent this story.

I think all the teenagers involved do have to get together, and take those that are willing to come together and form a pact. They have to respect each other, they have to respect all. They would have a chance at becoming modern celedrities, but only if they are good.

I predict a few won’t be down with it. I also know if Tori isn’t apart of this pact, it’ll be real hard. Maybe Tori might even exclude, but only at first. So it won’t start perfect, but perfection is the goal, it’ll take hardcore members that will look past the stray wandering, and still attempt to reclaim them even after insults.

I do think it could be a powerful positive group. They could target violent behavior, possible the lack of perfection in American Justice.Maybe even start or join a group for troubled teens.

Christina again, I think the ducks were in a row, but the lawyers messed this up.

Reply
December 15, 2008

Phil

To everyone I have not been able to find any links to Victoria ‘s discovery statement . My info comes from the Victem statement that or was on the Ledger web site
If there is a link Please let me know .

Reply
December 15, 2008

Robert Stevens

Phil the statement seemed to disappear with youtube user ijustgotjumped.

TO ALL: I hope you will lift this lady’s spirits. I do firmly believe that if from this date foward all involved act in positive ways it’d be the best for all. That is unlikely but they should all do the best they could. Christina does make big choices. I hope all the people here will work on keeping her in the right frame of mind.

I read all of your comments, and I think you are all good people. If any of you ever want to talk to me, I am at e-mail , webring40@yahoo.com . Sometimes you may get mad at her, but don’t let her stop believing in herself.

Back to Christina, you have to stay in that positive mood, you must find harmony now, and not lose it. I know I asked for you to take some lumps, but each positive responce you make, each move of love you make is a step foward, any statements of hatred or negitivety are leaps backwards. That is right Good are steps and bad is leaps, Christina you must be patient and regain the balance.

Reply
December 15, 2008

Robert Stevens

Possible a parting statement. If I want to stalk her, I would have introduced myself as a single man ) about 32 years old , I guess I could go with my job. Of course it would help if I was in the same state.

Reply
December 15, 2008

gompertz

Phil I think I understand what Christina is trying to say about how we tend to analyze and overanalyze people and Mercades especially. I think we can not get an accurate picture of what is in someone’s mind by getting more and more precise and we will never get anywhere even if we could trace the movement of every molecule swirling around in Mercades’ brain. Just like we can’t become better at walking by analyzing how we walk, and we might wind up tripping and falling if we are too attentive to the process of walking.
There was a lot of analysis on different sites, some with videos (can’t find them anymore) that tried so hard to make sense of who sent messages to who and they didn’t make things any clearer.

I do stand by my view that Mercades’ troubles started with those BF problems and we may hear more about that soon enough. But beyond what has been pertaining to Mercades’ emotional state, we have to look at something about Victoria. Scott would remember tis from Topix, back in May and June a person who claimed to be related (distantly) to Victoria was providing insights into her behavior that may be helpful, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this source. Anyway this unknown person portrayed Victoria as very independent and inclined to do her own thing no matter how much worry she caused to people who loved her and cared about her. Being strong and self-sufficient is wonderful but it can also lead to trouble. It could be that Victoria simply ignored Mercades’ warnings because she was following her normal course of doing what she wants and not listening to friends or relatives. This hypothesis is based purely on what I gather fro the person on Topix, and of course some will call it “bashing the victim,” but I can’t help that. And I am not basing this on the smearsagainst Victoria that appeared on some sites about the time of the deposition in November and those I just ignore. But being a friend of a person of strong will and character can be exasperating sometimes and while we can admire Victoria for her strength we can see with hindsight that it can be disastrous. She is a young person and young people tend to follow their desires and lack prudence.

If the angry girls outside couldn’t dissuade Victoria from going back in why assume that words from Mercades could have done it. As i said before I’m sure Mercades knew something was up but not the extent of it. How much did she know, etc. that is for Mercades to reflect on and come to terms with it just as we all have to come to terms with our own conscience for whatever wrong we have done. Those familiar with the Catholic sacrament of confession know that the confession is purely between the penitent and the priest to whom the sins are confessed. And of course the priest is supposed to represent a higher power. So Mercades has to come to terms with these things and beyond a certain point no one can analyze because no one can read a person’s heart.

I might add that making that confession involves making amends to the person you have hurt.

As for Robert Stevens’ idea, that is exactly the kind of thing we need. It would certainly be a great thing to see Victoria agree to participate in that and we might see a happy resolution to the tragic story. Only I wouldn’t let this fall into the clutches of creeps like Dr. Phil and Oprah.
I would seriously like Montel Williams to come out of retirement and do a few specials on this because he is the only one of the whole media crowd who really cares about victims,IMHO.

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December 15, 2008

Scott

Christina, I understand what you are saying. But I don’t think people here in general think Mercades is a monster or is some kind of mastermind of the assault on Tori. Mercades should have done more to stop the assault or tell the girls to leave at some point. But she stood pat and Hardcastle obviously took over the whole thing and the rest is history. Bad history.

There was also tremendous pressure on Cooper by some of the girls to hit and hurt Tori. There was a voice heard saying “bleeping hurt her (Tori) April”. I think that was Mayes saying that but I am not sure. Maybe you would know who said that Christina. And being the youngest girl there April may have felt peer pressure to please the older girls by pounding Tori for their sakes as much as hers. I personnally believe encouraging April to hurt Tori was the doing of Mayes and Hardcastle and perhaps Hassall and not Mercades who mainly was upset at Tori for whatever reasons and wanted her out of the house. What do you think Christina?

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December 15, 2008

Phil

Sorry Gomp
Why do you say we over analyse mercades especially , When we did the same thing with the other girls .there was never a doubt that we were speculating about April .Brit m And Brit H pyscological profiles ,We used our observation of the tapes and documents to draw conclusions and advance opinions that were as every bit as speculitive as what was being discussed with Mercades .unless i am now reading you wrong you seem to be saying that we shouldnt do this in regards to Mecades .I truley do not understand the over analysing remark .It could be that Victoria ignore the warnings unless we ask questions analyse the resposes given Read what others have to say will we be able to form opinions when thees point are brought up . This same process has gone on with all the different threads on this blog since the beginning .Yes i have been reading since the beginning. I was certainly not looking or you or anyone else to agree with me about Mercades .About wheter it was spontanious or not I think is very important and how do you determine this without looking at who said what to whom .Because we can never say with certainty is why these discusions take place .

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December 15, 2008

Amyv

Gomperts:

Gomps quote: “My account account of Mercades&rsquo action or inaction is also not about either-or. I have to look at what happened to her to make her put herself in the picture looking so unconcerned. That is where the troubles she had before come in, and I believe that the trouble with the gentleman called Jake (see how respectful I can be?) provide a clue to what kind of trouble. And that case is still pending.”

Sorry still having trouble with the cutting and pasting part of the names.

Gomp:

This is where I have a difficult time. When things are supposed to be based on facts, what are the facts of the boys case? You make many assumptions ( as we all do) about Mercedes being sorry and “clueless”. How with out knowing her can you so quickly defend. Then, knowing less about the boys case then this case find it so easy to condemn him?

I am not pretending to know what happened between this boy and Mercades. I have already made certain statements based on facts provided, although not enogh their yet, about jumping to conclusions about him. Do we not owe him even more respect than the ones we have much more information about?

I believe several posts back you based your opinion on the way men treat women. Also, when you were growing up what the more likely trend was. Times have changed. Women and girls are different now.

Once again hoping I a making my point. If you expect everyone to respect Mercades and Christinias situation. Why are you so ready to believe the boy is guilty and this had anything at all to do with Mercades mind set. I do not see the reasoning for that. Or why one is expected and one is acceptable.

Let me state this very clearly. I do not know this boy. I do not know any of these people. However, after many months of blogging we have some insight on some of these girls at least. Why so ready to disbelieve the boy with very little evidence to the contrary?

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December 15, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I didn’t express myself clearly enough. thanks for pointing it out. One thing I want to stress, there shouldn’t be any limit on what we can say. Just been reading some early posts on Topix and I noticed somebody said we don’t need a “blog nazi” to tell us what to say and not say, and I thin we don’t need a blog nazi here either.

I do think we all follow rules of civility and are considerate just like we do in the rest of our social dealings but that is not what I’m talking about. The problem is that the connection of Mercades to this whole case is different in an important way from the others, and you may not agree. But take a look at what I just wrote about Victoria, based on the characterization of her by the Topix writer. According to this description, Victoria is a strong, vivacious young woman who is independent and actively pursues her own chosen life style, whatever that may be. If it got her into trouble this time, it doen’t change the fact that these qualities are praiseworthy in themselves.

With Mayes and Hardcastle and Cooper and Hassel we have people who did a very bad thing but like Victoria they are described in active terms. With Mercades we see her not as active but sitting passively doing nothing in particular. We associate activity with vigor , effectiveness, power. We associate passivity with inertia and weakness. In fact, part of the humiliation they imposed on Victoria was that they made her a passive helpless victim. When we analyze the aggressors we ask how these virtues became perverted into something bad. We explain their actions in terms of anger and jealousy and try to correlate these feelings with what we see on the video. With Mercades we explain her passivity in terms of how hurt she was and how her emotions got the better of her because of things someone did to her.

That’s why I think we have to take more care in analyzing Mercades than the others. Because we will get it wrong. Not that we aren’t allowed to think what we want. But if we keep thinking 3+5=47 we have nobody else to blame if we can’t balance our checkbook.

The problem is this. I believe Mercades is a normal teenager with normal teenage problems who landed in a bad place because of this horrible event. Though I suspect she is probably a little more sensitive than most (and I think that is a great thing) she is not a monster or a weirdo. But if we are analyzing her based only on her passivity and her victimization we are going to miss that whole picture of the normal kid who cared about animals and had normal feelings, someone you wouldn’t mind having as a neighbor or babysitting for your little children. So we just keep analyzing and if we had the skill of Dostoevski or Camus we could turn her into one of those unbalanced enigmatic characters in a psychological novel. I think that is the kind of thing Christina saw happening here, and she says Mercades is a normal teenager with normal problems and I believe that is true.

Because she was not an active participant we analyze her with words like “luring” and “instigating” and also, worst of all, “betraying.” And that closes the door on seeing her as a normal teenager. That’s why people make such a big deal about the pen and the pushing and the bumper cars which I repeat with emphasis CAUSED NO HARM. But nobody cares that no one was hurt because we have already formed an image of a malicious schemer whose real threat far exceeds whatever physical effect that scheme had. The evidence is that these things were just impulsive acts of the kind that teenagers do but the image of the malevolent schemer remains.

Take April Cooper. We analyze how many punches were thrown, how hard did she hit, did she pull her punches,etc. and though we see her actions as evil, they are out in the open for us to see and the analysis proceeds directly from the action to the mental state. That keeps it simple and we are not tempted to overanalyze. With her and the other assailants we have a direct correlation between action and intention, and all we have to do is wait for the results of things like brain scans psychological tests to decide what should be done, whether they can be rehabilitated. I think that some people will continue to mistrust Mercades no matter what any tests show because there is no direct correlation between what we see on the video and what we may deduce about her mental states. Without that correlation we have nothing definite to reason about and in the absence of material for analysis our minds create their own reasons based on our own projections. So we confuse our subjective impressions with reality and we will continue to substitute those impressions for the reality. And so I am afraid that without being aware of it we may be creating a “monster” through overanalysis. The overanalysis is not wrong in the sense that we analyze too much but that we try to analyze her the same way we analyze the others, by directly linking up the video image with the mental state. What works with the others doen’t work with Mercades because with her you have to proceed not from physical action to mental state but from one mental state to another, and that is far more difficult. So to analyze Mercades properly means not that we have to analyze less, but that we have to analyze more. But that means that the analyze has to be of a different kind. We are not called on to be referees, as Amy describes it, but psychologists and it helps if we can bring in more psychological, philosophical and literary material of a kind we dont really need for the others (though for the others it may also be interesting to do that). And it helps that Christina can contribute her insights and keep us honest when we analyze things.
So I don’t know if what I say has clarified anything but if not I will have to try again.

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

What I find interesting on this blog is it gives you some insight as to the way a jury would deliberate. So many different personalities. So many different ideas and opinions. Although, they do have access to much more factual information so their conclusions would be easier to reach than ours.

O.K. what I truely dislike about this post you type for 10 to 15 minutes a lose it (really a computer problem) however very frustating.

Phil – I agree with Your post as you may well know already. Premeditation, I find little doublt.
Girls hiding in rooms (April). Camera ready to go.
More girls inside than Victoria was warned about. To much for me to come to any other conclusion.

However, it is a fact Mercades did warn Victoria not to go in. This was an attempt (although not enough) to try in someway to give it a chance to not happen.

I do believe Mercades problem will be that this did happen at her place of residence. She knew these girls were all their. She could have asked them or actually told them to leave since if she knew their was going to be troube. And she did. As stated over and over.

Also, once inside of the house any attempt to stop it was not to be seen. No actions of fear.
Not to mention driving Victoria against her will to a CVS in order to pick up her grandmother. Some really bad decisions even if she was not actually involved in the beating. Please no one take offense just responding to a blog honestly.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Amy, someone just changed the format of the blog here? Better to see. Believe it or not I was going to bed. But then I saw your post and I have to at least make some sort of response. Oh I am finding out how different girls and women are today. The other day I happen to be walking past a junior high school just when school was out. All those angry sullen looking little girls about twelve years old marching along the sidewalk as if in military formation and carrying their cell phones. They didn’t give way for anyone and I had the sudden impression that if I didn’t yield the whole sidewalk they might actually attack me and post it on youtube. Seriously! And they still had some obscenities to aim at anyone in the vicinity. This is something you just didn’t see in the 60’s. Yet there are still many young girls who act in a more traditional way. I have friends and neighbors who have young daughters and most of them are gentle and feminine and I worry about what happens to these gentle ones when they encounter the hordes of tough girls out there. That is why I tell all the parents to send their daughters to martial arts class. Back in the eighties I had a lady friend (still my friend today) who had a young niece. I met the niece when she was five and I will never forget this smiling innocent child and the impression she made. This little girl had a friend the same age and I used to babysit for them. As they grew older they used to join us on trips to the country and I can still hear them singing and laughing in the back seat of my car. They were so well-behaved and intelligent and decent and today they are both dead. The niece’s friend was 18 when she was shot dead in a schoolyard fight with another girl and the niece was stabbed to death a few years ago by an ex-boyfriend. So this is the fate of good girls I have known and I see it as a trend that we have to reverse. I’m sure you know young girls like that too and the world is a rough place for them today.

As for the BF named Jake I have become more inclined to wait and see too, and my little bit of irony that you quoted doesn’t reflect my thinking at this stage. We will wait and see. As Electronica once admonished me I should say what I mean because some people may be misled. While I withhold judgment the fact remains that I have seen allegations about him that are pretty nasty. If they turn out to be unfounded I would apologize of course. We don’t have a final word on it but I have listened to your views on this matter and you have made some good points that I am not arguing against. So for now I have to leave it at that and if I don’t get some sleep my ideas will blend together like melted cheese.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Okay the original format is back. Amy I agree that Mercades’ main problem is that the thing happened at her house and the court is going to take that into account regardless of her state of mind or her degree of participation. But I don’t know the law well enough and I really hope they go easy on her. Why do I have this feeling of caring about someone I haven’t met? Well, I haven’t met Victoria either and yes I do care about her and hope she overcomes her difficulties.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

Gomp says
Why do I have this feeling of caring about someone I haven&rsquot met?

Because you feel this way it has to affect your objectivity in regards to Mercades.You stated to me in a post
Dec 14″
But you are right that legally she may be held responsible on technical grounds where her state of mind is less important than the fact of her physical presence, in her own residence, and i think that is one point Robert Stevens is making and for her sake I hope her lawyer is competent.”
I hope her lawyer is not competent if this means Mercades or any of the defendants do not pay for what the legally resonsible for. I do not Know or expect to ever know Victoria .I can only care for her in regards for the suffering from the assult . That is only a little bit of her life .I show rage and disdain at the defendants ,But again only for the assult . This to is a small snippet of each of thier lives .
One thing Christina and AmyV says that Mercades should be given some credit for the warning this is correct and I have not done this. though i say when she brings the warning up after April’s assult the scorn in her voice directed at Victoria takes away from the warning . Where was the compassion for her friend .

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Phil and Gomp, hi again. I know I came in here and upset some people in this room real fast. I hope you too don’t take this wrong. Doesn’t it suck going over the details of this case? In this post I am not trying to stick up for Christina Garcia, as you may have noticed i push positive thinking. Mainly for her, because I do firmly believe the next 34 days in her life are so pivotable. I also believe these girls will either come together or be completely ass out in life. That grey middle area, it’s not there. I even think it’s best for The Lindsay Sisters that all walk out holding hands. This is why I try to push Xtina into a correct frame of mind, as I’ve been doing.

I am out of my element here. My wife likes Nancy Grace. She is caught on this story, last night i had to miss Rudolph The Rednose Raindeer, I don’t think she would understand that , that was depressing for me. I just played with my colored pencils instead. You do know The Nancy Grace Show is very tragic these days. My guess is if you are a Grace fan you’d want to come here where it is a little smoother.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

To Robert .
When I first posted here I probally upset a few people
Gomp’s” eveyone shows thiers spots ”
comment certainly made me think about how and what i was saying. as did Eltronics’a questioning wether i was being cruel for recommending stiff penaltys . Your comments on some of us being the same as BritM
still bothers me deeply . If that is your point of reference it will be hard for me to take you seriously . Keep on posting don.t apoligise for anything you do not feel you have to . Keep on expressing your opinions but after reading all we have to say and the way we really try to let each other express our views do you still wish to be on record with that statement. .

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

To Robert Stevens: With Nancy Grace she is so deeply into the Caylee Anthony story for about five months now and it didn’t make me feel the way this one does. Now they find the body and I have a feeling of resignation because I figured the child was not coming back and no surprise. Even on Mycrimespace there are very few comments on this case compared to this one and I think it is because every one with more than zero brain cells had figured out what happened there. Now people will say let’s get justice for the baby but really is there ever justice in cases like this? The legal processes drag alone with all the inevitability and slowness of continental drift and it has a numbing effect for me and I guess for anyone who is not fascinated by legal technicalities that are far more concerned for the rights of vile murderers and rapists than for victims.

So I look at this case here as being different in that I feel it is pivotal and the outcome has a real chance of influencing the way society is going, though maybe I’m crazy for thinking it. And of course here there is hope that each one, Victoria and all the others will find a positive outcome and society as a whole can benefit from that if happens.

To Montell Williams if you are reading this please come back and do some specials with Victoria Lindsay as the star!!!

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Phil, I guess this is why Christina may consider me two faced. On one hand I defend her and her family name here, but on the other hand, I think that they should face protocal and proceedures like everyone else does.

I am sure 99.9% of all people caught on film commting a crime has plead bargained. If they do go to trial they do deserve the sentences the state said they are working for. Just as all parties before them have recieved. If they want to go to trial and make their defence “Victoria Lindsay is a slut that deseves to have her ass kicked.’ The they deserve the consequence of Victoria Lindsay being right under FICA on their earning statements. Their lawyers also deserve consequences for letting the inmates take over the assylum.

On top of that I really do believe, no prison time will equal no respect. So when Britiney Mayes is looking for a small perk at work years down the road, co-workers will be able to jump all over her history of getting over. Honestly if they don’t do time how could you feal remorse about making fun of them, after all that would be their only punishment. I compare what would be in store for them with, if Jane Fonda went to Hanoi, but was not Henry Fonda’s daughter. Honestly i would rather cut a deal, and do 2 years.

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December 16, 2008

christina garcia

I think this….the only person who has a right to write or tell a story about the beating is the victim PERIOD! Just like I wouldn’t expect Torr to write or tell my daughter’s story even though they both stem from the same night the 2 are very different yet non conflicting stories.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Phil, about statements that upset people not speaking for anyone else but when you just said that I have lost objectivity I almost got a bit upset but it is probably true and I should plead guilty of having become much too involved in thinking about this case to remain objective. But I think involvement is not a bad thing if it means having a perspective, and I think every one here has a perspective that depends on a certain level of involvement. Most of us don’t know these people but that doesn’t keep us from having a point of view. I reread Greg’s posts about why this case is so important and he takes a more detached view of the participants than I do but still he has a point of view that says the case is very important. I see nothing wrong with taking a point of view that reflects some of my personal concerns of the kind I have mentioned when I bring up when I mention eastern philosophy. So let me inject a personal note and say I have been thinking of moving to Florida for a long time and I have been reading about it and researching it so even from that point of view I have a personal concern here. And way off-topic but after Florida I want to wind up in Southeast Asia and Florida may be a good way to get accustomed to those warmer climates but anyway that is just a small hint as to the kind of things I am planning that make me look at this case from a less than objective point of view. The crucial point is that I think you can be fair and balanced without being objective and very few people attain pure objectivity anyway.

Also you seem to disapprove of my saying I hope Mercades has a competent lawyer as if that is wrong. Saying she deserves a good lawyer I don’t mean I hope she avoids a just punishment because of legal technicalities. I mean I hope she avoids an unjust punishment because of legal technicalities. An unjust punishment would be one that for instance makes her more guilty on the purely legal grounds that it was her house without considering all the mitigating factor we have been discussing.

I read your comment about being compared to BM and you seem to resent it, and okay that is a valid point. Especially because of the way she has been characterized here of late. Whether the comparison is applicable to anyone in any way I won’t judge. But it made me think what if someone compared me to Mercades, and said I am just like her and that is why I lack objectivity. I would not be upset because I remember the emotional storms of my own teenage years and how I was ready to make deals with the devil to get back at people who hurt me. That may be what Mercades was going through so I sympathize and I don’t see why that is a bad thing.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geom, I agree with you, and this is what put me on this campaighn here. (Not that I am seeking votes) I don’t like the 8, I don’t like their actions, but you have to go past that part of your mind. It is why there are no so many movements against thought.

What will destroy these girls could be they never make a turn. They never push for positive results. Their lawyers and/or parents, never had faith in the public. That they could just say “We are wrong and we are ready to pay our price to society.” The idea of going to court crying a 16 year old deserved this because she stole this 14 year old’s boyfriend (whom, by the looks of things was not under 18 years old.), and wasn’t her boyfriend in the first place. Is by far the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. I hinestly believe when this is over, there will be a book writen about how bad these lawyers represented them and how the 8 was robbed from being celebrities, but it’s not to late right now.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina I agree with your last 100% , I think Tori’s legal team which is a good legal team. Has all ready adviced her against telling the other’s story. Victoria does have a right to give her story, but could go too far.

Look people will be upset to see this thing turn into a meal ticket for the 6 girls and The Lindsay sisters. Some thing that is kind of funny the original girl that wanted to jump Tori will be sued, but not get any of the fame.

The reason it doen’t only not bother me, but as some could see I support it. Is because they have been pushed into a corner in which, they do have to come out and look for Oprah, Montel etc to clear their names, and it don’t end their. People will want a book. However, if Victoria sinks, they are passengers on that Titanic. Therefore, what do you do? You make sure you’re in a position to save a sinking Victoria. Victoria is the leader because you picked her and she did not pick you.

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December 16, 2008

Christina Garcia

First off, I found a very interesting article on Judd from 2 years ago in the Ledger. He made a public comment that because a gay man was strolling for sex he deserved what he got ( being murdered) if for people that feel this way what kind of a Sheriff would have the gonads to say this as a public statement?

Ok Scott: I agree with you totally 100 % and I think it was Mayes but I will ask umm..let’s just say I’ll ask around and I’ll find that out for you.

Phil,
Do you think Mercades deserved some kind of vigil anti justice? I hope not, I like to believe that you are not that type of person. I hope you want her to have a compatent lawyer and not a corrupt one either way. And I can see what you’re saying about your response maybe its because I’m her mom and maybe more sensitive., and maybe why I feel her name is being brought up alot more than the others. Maybe you’d be asking the same to thier moms if they were here. I’m sorry.

Amyv,
While I call him Jake the Snake ( I feel I have earned that privildge considering what we went through with him) I would always respect anyone here that reserved judgement until things are more clear. I have no problems with that at all. I don’t expect anyone to feel like I do about him, how could I ? Oh and by the way I have many many problems too on here, I believe everything we type is being copied at PCSO, sorry to those who don’t believe but I’ve had a Computer Geek here to look at my cpu because its acted funny since I’ve been on here, and another person on here said they were having problems either way just know its not your computer hon. And I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree about her being taken to CVS against her will, the reports and 911 call are clear that she called her friend from Mercades’ phone finally and told her to meet her at CVS. I mean just think about this, if you were kidnapped wouldn’t you think you’d be dropped off in the woods or somewhere sucluded? She was not kidnapped, and I will never agree with that.
And Amyv….I am not affended ina any way. : ) In fact, I appreciate your concerns and respect them maybe more after what we have been through here towards eachother, and have somehow found light. Have a great Day Amy! And hug your daughter as I’m sure you probably already do.

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December 16, 2008

Eva

I am trying to find out anything on the court case, but all I seem to find are blogs. Anyone know what is happening with this case? thanks.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Ok EVA you got me looking something up. 1/20/09 will be Hardcaste’s, Mayes, Nichole and Cooper’s Pre Trial hearing, I think it ends there. I predict they will plead bargain.

12/5/08 Hassell’s Pre trial hearing. I willl now look up what happened, maybe I’ll find nothing

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December 16, 2008

Electronica

well its good if i didnt make things worse.

maybe im gonne make things worse now i dont wanne insult ppl but i just think what phil keeps on saying just doesnt make any sense at all and is totally biased.

phil how can you say the girls sound rehearsed. im sorry but thats just stupid if you think thats rehearsed your like those ppl who say the goverment did 911 theres ppl like that in the city and its impossible to argue with them its all silly conspiracy theories.

like what do you think went on? the girls had a big conference and planned it like this? said when tori comes merc and britti and kayla all start telling her to get out we give her all her stuff and kick her out of the house and keep yelling at her for at least 15 mins. dont worry its all just a ruse to have some fun we know for sure toris not gonne leave theres no way she would just tell her ride to pls take her home or let her call a friend she can stay with. and you see her rides in on this too she agreed to tell us let tori back in the house. and toris parents are in on this too just to teach her a lesson they agreed they wouldnt help if she calls home they figure getting beat up like that is gonne improve her attitude shes gonne apreciate them more.

so now whens toris back in the house let april go first shes the youngest. dont worry about tori fighting back she never fights never hits anyone shes into ghandi and stuff. and when april beats her up april must tell her to leave and like when she asks for a phone april must say someone give her a phone but its all a ruse for the camera. oh and later on merc you yell let her go let her go but its all a ruse for the camera dont worry brittis not gonne let her go.

oh and we must rehearse what to say. like when tori says its not fair you say its perfectly fair its one on one and you and you repeat that and shout figth back fight back. lets practice so it sounds good and in sync. and lets come up with what to say if tori says this and tori says that we have to prepare for anything she says. lets make a chart so we know what to say.

phil this is real stupid if this was all rehearsed they had to plan it for weeks and had to have a playbook bigger than what the giants have. and its not just this lots of other stuff you said doesnt make sense if you watch the vid and read what tori said and what kayla said and so on.

its frustrating cause so many ppl on blogs said stuff like you. and i used to think its just cause their stupid but you dont sound stupid so it must be you hate them so much you dont think fair at all. its like you read stuff but you so biased you dont really read it.

and its not like i have to defend merc here her mom can do that. its just that i see this in real life too all the time i mean like teachers can be totally unfair they treat one person this way and another that way for the same stuff. and when they make up their mind about you they never change it no matter what you say or do and they never admit they were wrong or unfair they think if they do that we dont respect them anymore but its we dont respect them cause their unfair and cant admit their wrong. im sorry phil but ppl like you are one reason why we dont go to grownups when theres problems it can make things worse and lots of times it does.

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December 16, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I would still like to see Tori do live prime time interviews with Nancy Grace and Greta Van Sustren even though her assault case is almost 9 months old. Tori has every right to tell her story and she should. Tori’s story and how and why she was ganged up on by her peers could help other teens avoid what she went through. But unless the assault and imprisonment of Tori comes back into the national spotlight due to a trial the ship has sailed on Tori finanically profiiting from national TV interviews. She could and should have have cashed in on the interviews back in April when the story was hot. Now it’s on the backburners of prominent TV shows. Tori could have told her story and what happened to her without slamming those arrested for her assault. But for whatever reasons she kept quiet or was told to keep quiet. And giving interviews might have helped Tori in a theraputic kind of way deal with the agony and embarassment of getting brutally physically assaulted and viciously verbally assaulted on video for the world to see by girls she knew.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Scott it would probably be good for Victoria to do interviews even if she doesn’t make as much financially. It would help her therapeutically as you say just to tell her story and it will be of interest to many people. The ratings might not show the support for her in terms of pure numbers, but if we measure interest in her story not in terms of number of viewers but rather in terms of the intensity and dedication of those who follow the story, we will see firm and unqualified support. And those who support her with such unyielding devotion will always be there.

Electronica it is good to have you back. Please just keep speaking your mind and searching for the truth just as you have always been doing.

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December 16, 2008

Electronica

amy yes its hard to keep up i dont read it all here i skip the boring parts so its quicker.

and amy the girl who said let her run away let her run away sounds like merc and mercs mom said it was merc i read it in people. so you dont know if she tried to stop it all you know she didnt try much cause she didnt stop it.

and amy knowing there could be trouble isnt the same like knowing there will be trouble. like why would britti help merc kickout tori with all her stuff and try to make her leave for so long if she like planned to get her inside the house and beat her up?

whem merc told tori she had to leave it made it obvious she doesnt want any trouble she doesnt want any fight she doesnt want any beating to go on.

i agree merc was very wrong she didnt stop the beating and it was her home so that makes it even worse i dont know the law but i think its fair if she gets punished. but she should get punished for what she did not what ppl think she did cause cops and tv told them so.

and i agree we dont know just what merc did and didnt do. we know some but not all. thats why i like your idea with the lie detectors. let all the girls say what they trememver and if they lie its gonne show up. and theres seven girls so its gonne be easy to find out what really happened.

but amy when i said it you said maybe its not a good idea. its like worry maybe tori was wrong about some stuff. like the second vid was proof april didnt knock her out.

its like for you what tori says is gospel and when someones says wait tori said this here and something else there or when one says wait what she said doesnt agree with the vid or with what like all the other girls say well then its like being a heretic.

you know ppl treat merc like she is all bad just because she did something wrong. and ppl treat tori like shes all good just because she was beat up. its not that easy. some of the stuff she said she maybe didnt remember right cause she got concusion. some stuff she said was only what she thinks is true but she didnt say that so ppl think it must be true. i said before just look what she said about zach she says he was a lookout and that shes certain. ok thats the gospel. oh but the cop asked her how do you know. and tori says oh its the way zach smiled at me thats how i knew. ok what if the cop asked more questions like that what if lots of other stuff is what tori thinks is true not what she really knows is true?

so saying dont take everything she said like its written in stone doesnt mean saying shes all bad. maybe i wouldnt do much better if i got beat up that bad i would be all feelings and hurt and little thinking and no caution when i would tell ppl about it.

oh and amy when do you sleep. not just you but gomp and others too i see you blog way too late into the night.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Electonica, I’m not going to point out some of the ways I pick this up. In all actuality I do think you are Utubedetective, this surge of comments here explains why you have not logged onto youtube for a while. I am willing to wager Utubedective does have a 16 year old living in his house. I am also sure Utubedetective has a log book in which her keeps his hundreds of various log ons and pass words. Utubedetective was not born with this case. Most likely Utubedetective is 1 of 3 things.

1. An over zealous prosecutor baiting the suspects into going to court, where they do face sentences of over 15 years.

2. A detective that works for a lawyer that wants to make a name for himself, and really wants this to go to trial. These lawyers do want to play in the big game.

3. A campaighn leg work man, that has his sights on his buddy that he is loyal to give him a job after he is elected Sherrif.

I use to favor 1&amp2, but as of late I am favoring 3. Funny but you could actually be 1 and 3.

Looking at the July 8th vlog posted by Utubedetective, I can’t believe that there was no demand for him or her to show his or her face. I think Utubedetectives comments and vlogs harmed The 8 in every way. The worse thing about Utubedetective is he does appear as he could be a parent of one of the 8. If I was a parent of one of the eight I would demand Utubedetective to show himself.

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December 16, 2008

Electronica

ms. garcia things make more sense now when you say kayla had mercs phone. i was puzzled cause tori tells merc give me your phone and later she sayd im waiting for the phone but shes looks at kayla and like i didnt here her asking kayla for her phone. so now it makes more sense.

and if the phone is red its not the phone in the picture of tori right after the beating. someone said its mercs fingers on that phone i dont know but the phones not red.

do you know whose phone it is?

and how come the girls dont have phones. like tori didnt and april didnt and kayla didnt. is it because its a real small town and ppl dont worry not having a phone on them. or maybe in florida ppl dnt give kids phones until they like turn 16. its just strange.

and ms. garcia i dont think the cops are in your computer i think thats silly. maybe they read what you write here but if thats not enough for them they can just stop by and take your whole computer its much easier. i dont think the cops know much computer stuff anyway they go to tech ppl for that its not like they are the fbi or ctu its just cops not very smart most of them.

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz – As to your post concerning the book.
I do believe it would be profiting off of the victims pain. I am not sure if this would fall under a law such as the Son of Sam. Not quit sure what the laws are about that in Florida.

You see in order for the book to make any sense, some details about this case would have to be written about. The criminal act and the suing of the sheriff are to intertwined. People whould have to know some of the prior facts leading up to this. Since the attack lead up to this it would have to be explained some how.

However, I do not think the book would do well. Becase people do like to read about murders and perhaps unsolved mysteries. To much information on this case to reveal shocking secrets. That of course is just my opinion. I do not think any of the people involved in this case would profit off of a book at this point.

Sometime down the line however I do believe Victoria could profit from a made for t.v. movie. If that is the route she chooses to take. So far she has shown no indication of wanting to do anything besides get this over with and put it behind her.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

To AmyV just a quick shout out to you
hard to comment back to you when we do agree so often thanks for the nice words fom earlier it did seem like we were outnunbered . That being said like the way things are going .lots of great comments .

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December 16, 2008

Electronica

oh i just saw that stuff about me being someone on youtube. im not. ive been told before by ppl that im cara and then that im kayla or that im their friend. and im not i cant prove it but who cares if ppl dont wanne believe me.

anyway i dont wanne be rude but i learned to ignore ppl who act wierd its like the moment you give them attentiom it gets worse. so that you all know.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

To Christina .
i always find it the hardest answering your questions. I hate the fact that when i wright something about Merades that you will be reading it ,
If you keep asking me qustions I will answer but that means again i am again talking about Mercades. For one thing you don’t have to walk on eggshells if you feel i am being unfair or stupid then feel free to call me out as you can see you would not be the only one .You are aloud to show your fustration and anger the same way as the rest of us . I think we are beyond the name calling stage . Thank you again for accepting my aplology.
To answer your question
No not at all as far as any type of vigil anti justice.Never not a bit . As you can see I feel very strongly in what I feel Mercades role in this is . What ever the plea agreement or whatever the sentence that is what the punishment will be . I will probally be very angry and yell that its not enough but that is the system .No-one has the right to impose anything else .I will say this with all sincerity . I think BritH Brit M and April Acted legaly worse than Mercades and that Mercades acted Morally worse than the others .and sentences should reflect that ‘
After all the defendants have paid there price I hope they forgive themselves and have as normal of a life as these events will allow them

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

Electonica. Then please ignore me without using negative adjectives. I stated your actions and the results of your actions. That you found a need to respond by calling me a weirdo shows you do realize that you should be ashamed of yourself, as should anyone that has made comments as you have against the victim, and that does even include as your 16 year old persona that I do not buy.

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

Interesting analogy on your part of Victoria’s character. We could also swing to the opposite side of the pendulum this way. Perhaps Victoria could not imagine that anything cruel was about to take place.

I seems even though she and Mercades were obviously having problems, she still felt Mercades was her friend and she could trust her. A strong and independent personaltiy can be a good thing. However mixed with the wrong kind of environment, proved to be disasterous.

Just as you can not analyze Mercades mind, neither can anyone analyze Victoria’s at this point. Would I have entered the house with a bunch of girls screaming at me easy for me to say know. No I would not. However, I can say that now because of what happened to this girl.

At the age of sixteen when I truely believe one of them was one of my best friends and I was staying their maybe so. Perhpas her problem is not her independence but trusting in a friend who betrayed her.

I do tend to trust my friends with severe loyalty. Sometimes however you learn the hard way, that this is not always extended in return. That is the true lesson I believe this poor girl has learned from this experience. She stated herself she was having trouble trusting people. I surely can not blame her. This would make me question all of my friends.

My hope for her is that now she is surrounded by people who are loyal and trust worthy. Friends that are sincere and would stand by you no matter what. For this is what friendship should truely be about. You can argue with someone without having to fear retaliation.

As for all of these girls come together as a group for the greater good. Wow, that would be a hard one. They have all pointed the finger at each other. Especially, Brittany Hardcastle, although I don’t know her she does not seem like the type fo forgive easily.

I would imagine at this point she would be much angrier at some of the girls she felt betrayed her than she had ever been with Victoria. Once again just assuming. However, very feasible if this girl learned nothing, the other girls should avoid her at all cost. The same can be said for April Copper and Brittany Mayes. I am sure Mercades and Kayla are not considered their friends anymore. I do not think this is a bad thing. I just think these girls have shown they are alike poison together.

As for Victoria, once again just assuming. If your still having nightmares about the beating and major trust issues why would she want to subject yourself to these girls any further&gt I personally would not want to go anywhere near them. Fear and trust issues would be way to over whelming. Also, brings back to many horrible memories that I am sure she is trying to forget.

However, I did read where she said she had learned a great lesson on how important family is. Now they are doing well and very close. So some good things did come out of this.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

To AmyV and just about all here. you guys are making a short story long. Amongst these 5 co-defendants there are young women, that could just stand up for what they did. I can’t tell you how many, but I am pretty sure that there are. Reading into details. In April, these girls could have made deals in which for half of them this would all be over. None of them would have seen prison. I actually feal sorry for the girl or girls that would have stood up and took a short sentence in the Juevy (ran by nurses not Custody). Instead now they get the drama and maybe prison that they may be facing.

The biggest shame of this story is yet to come, when it is revealed who was the coward that couldn’t cut a bargain in which no one would have seen prison time.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Amy, I think with Victoria we have to see both of these factors. The picture of her as strong and independent (which comes from someone on Topix) has to be balanced against the inability or unwillingness to sense danger. Sometimes strong personalities are strong only insofar as they are impervious to the threat of danger which a more timid person would take into account.

So when she now says she no longer trusts people I wonder if she has stopped being as strong and independent as before. Hopefully this terrible experience has made her more cautious and reflective and she will get on with her education. Somewhere I read she was thinking of getting into the medical field and maybe now she can focus on that.

As for the idea of getting together with the others in some kind of structured setting that would of course depend on the ability of her assailants to get over their negativity and come to terms with what they did. If it could be done under the right guidance and moderated by someone who is dedicated to helping victims, it could be a great thing. That might mean a TV appearance, yes. Only it had better not be that vile self-promoter Dr. Phil because he would arrange to take all the credit for making it happen, when it could only happen if initiated by Victoria and at least one or two of those who attacked her.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

My advise to all 5 of these girls is after it is over and after sentences are served move on .This to me is the only way . They do not have to become spoksepeople for all that ails the teenage world. They need to heal and have a life . I am sure every one of them will not need a daily reminder of what thay did ,now that would be a life sentence. For us here are so immersed in the case We would probally follow it . Even if Brit M or Brit H do not feel as sorry as we would like them to be . After the sentence are complete they just have to stay out of trouble with the law .I am sure there families have heard the name Victoria Lindsay enough to last a while am i right Christina .I am sure you have wished that Victoria was never allowed to stay in your Mom’s house .

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

To Phil and Amy, if you answered yes to that question “Are you enjoying your attacks on Christina?” then I could compare you to Mayes. realize I do see Garcia as woman that was tortured on youtube, maybe you guys didn’t see the level of insults she went through there. In my opinion Utubedetective and his army of alter identies pursuaded the hatred that the 8 recieve to this day. Imagine he made a vlog that he slowed the torture of Victoria down and made his own stupid assinine comments, and to this day I hold it against Christina that she herself did not tell this creep to shut up. Just as she holds against me some of the comments he caused me to make.

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December 16, 2008

Robert Stevens

You know my wife is doing it again. Making me watch Larry King, and he is talking about The Anthony case. See you guys tomorrow I got to go draw right now. I guess if you’re Utubedetective it’s nice to know someone in Florida is a worse human being then you are.

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December 16, 2008

Electronica

and ppl heres an example of like why things dont always have to be black and white good or bad.

amy says they kidnapped tori ms. garcia says no they didnt.

so what if it went like this. merc says we must go tori can call someone from my phone on the way. and toris like ok with it at first but then she sees britti going to the car wih her too and she doesnt like that shes scared of her and says im not going. and brittis like dont be stupid lets go and she takes her by the hand and like puts her into the car but tori doesnt fight it at all. and like maybe merc didnt even see this maybe she was already in the car when this happened. so now whos right? and what does it mean for merc? like can she kidnap tori if she didnt even hear and see what went on between tori and britti?

and ppl what if britti was thinking its late its night tori doesnt have a phone and nowhere to go its stupid to be walking at night like that shes got hurt feelings so shes being stupid theres no time for that we have to pick up mercs mom so lets go. and britti doesnt think its kidnapping it like doesnt even entere her mind i mean kidnapping is like you use a gun or someones like fighting and screaming or something but tori didnt say anything more so britti thinks she like figured it would be stupid to be walking around in the night i mean its s small town i bet they dont have buses there at night and no subway. and ppl gonnne get mad at me for sayng this but just because you beat up someone doesnt mean you dont care about that person at all so what if britti meant well by telling tori she has to go what if britti was thinking its not safe walking around at night and maybe she was feeling a bit guilty already i mean tori said she did say sorry.

you know what im saying? it doesnt have to be so simple t can be complicated and everyone can be a little bit right but also a little bit wrong too. gn.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Phil you make a good point about the perpetrators possibly showing less than total remorse, when maybe the best we can hope for is some limited recognition of their wrongdoing. For instance it was reported that Ms Hardcatsle had a conversation with someone during her incarceration who explained to her that she had “gone too far.” and according to the report this simple truth took some time to sink in. Maybe later she progresses to the idea that indeed the whole thing didn’t need to be done at all. And eventual she may see that it was wrong. But I believe remorse can come through a gradual process of recognition and it may not go so far as repenting in sackcloth and ashes. But just to get from the point of thinking it was amusing to seeing that it was wrong would be a great thing, and that could take time. I certainly don’t agree with the person on another blog who insists that if remorse is not total and immediate it will never come. Let us be thankful for small favors and let remorse evolve in small increments and if Ms Hardcastle continues with her church attendance she may receive the grace to attain a complete transformation eventually.
It is probably best for all of them to heal as you say. Victoria needs to complete her education and have a career and reconciliation can happen when the time is right.

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

phil –
” thing Christina and AmyV says that Mercades should be given some credit for the warning this is correct and I have not done this. though i say when she brings the warning up after April&rsquos assult the scorn in her voice directed at Victoria takes away from the warning . Where was the compassion for her friend .”

I totally agree. This was said on the tape with no compassion or concern. I just don’t know besides their actions or lack there of, the way they spoke was so devoid of caring. It really
what made the attack and the taping so much harder to stomach. It truely made you feel sick.

I don’t know how a jury (if it goes to trial) will get past watching this tape. I can not stand to watch it at all anymore. Tryed to without anything but gathering information. Could not watch the whole thing. I just will never understand the cold heartedness of the whole action.

Gomp – I respectfully disagree with your post of prior state of mind. This is where I have trouble with a lot of human beings as a whole.

If you are in a bad place in your life or have just had a bad day, why make other people miserable?
Bringing someone else down with you just doesn’t make sense. I try to always be an upbeat and happy person.

Example: you go to work with the weight of the world on your shoulders. You maintain your compsure and continue to make it a happy experience. Especially, when patient care is involved. Attitudes all over the place. Personal I know but trying to make a poiint. Just because you are unhappy don’t try to take everyone down with you. We all live here together or seperate. If we can’t do a better job than this we are in for a world of hurt. I hope I make sense.

Also, once again if we are going to assume Mercades was in a bad place can’t the same be said for all of the other girls? It seems like everyone of them had problems of one sort or another. Not living at home, not in high school, running away from home I just don’t think we can fairly say judge Mercades differently because she was in a bad place.

Perhaps, we should start analyzing the other girls more. Perhaps we do focus on her more than the others. Mainly because her mother is present her. If their were other parents here would we not speak of them more? If Christina were not here, would we all give Mercades the benefit of every doubt and not the others. What if it was Cara Murphy’s mother here. We would be talking about Cara more. Mercades was no better and no worse than some of the other girls. It is just that Christinia is here.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

With regards to the kidnapping charge . It to me is a simple question . Did Victoria have a choice of getting in the car . in her own statement Victtoria says that I don.t want to you will just hit me again.She was told no thats over now and you have learned your lesson (BH) i believe. Please do not forget that at his point she was a truley submissive person.She puts her hands down by her side and lets herself to get photgraphed . To record the damage that they were all so proud of All her bravado has been beaten out of her .Again according to the victim . She didn’t have a choice but to get in the car .If you belive the victim’s statement this is Kidnapping . Also during this trip my personal favorite ‘she is made to aploigize and then threatened with more viloence if she reports it.Mercades should be given some credit for giving her a phone but that drive was a continuatin of the assult . more crimes piles on more crimes .Here is a bit of hypothetical. What do you think would have happened to Victoria if these girls found out she had planned to go to the police and reached her first.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

Gomp
if we give the defendants proper puishment for thier crimes then how sorry they are is only important to those directly involved .The defendants and thier families .the victms and thier familiee. What ever the sentence it will probally be heavy in probation so we will see if any lessons have been learned.
Again Amyv
so nice to have you in my corner so to speak.

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –
“Because she was not an active participant we analyze her with words like &ldquoluring&rdquo and &ldquoinstigating&rdquo and also, worst of all, “betraying”.

Different words strike a different cord with different people. Just as you accused me of using harsher words against Chrstinia (prior pst and past that) I and a couple others found her words just as insulting. Sorry Christinia just trying to make a point.

What is worse ringleader or instigator. That is all based upon how you look at it. I believe it was Phil and myself who stated ringleader leads to premediation being assumed. Instigator is starting something and egging it on. Which is worse that is up for interpretation.

As for betrayal yes that was a big part of this attack. Being betrayed by a friend has not been disputed here. Just because you do not like that particular word does not make it anymore or less worse than other things that have been said on this post. It is all in peoples personal opinions of whether they are insulted more by certain words than others.

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December 16, 2008

MIke

First, why do all these weird crimes happen in Florida??
Second, this is kind of like the OJ case, a bunch of people doing something they think is just between themselves and then discovering that it’s serious business. Also, a lot of, “Well, I didn’t mean to….”
Thirdly, a lot like the Rodney King case in that a lot of, “much happened before (or after) the tape started…” “the tape doesn’t show the full story…” etc.
Listen, the tape really speaks for itself. The girls beat Tori. It is certainly true that all participation was not equal and the sentences should not be equal. But, I say, just being the room and NOT taking SOME action, even if only to say, “take it easy…” or “give her a chance to defend herself…”etc. earns you 2 years.

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December 16, 2008

Phil

Yeah Mike

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December 16, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
Always enjoy your responses they always make me think .The last blog I sent you ,i was really hoping you would not get upset .I nearly didn’t send it and re-read it quite a few times before i did ..There is nothing at all wrong about caring for anybody at any time . Your habit of making good points is directly interfering with me thinking I am right all the time . so for the sake of my inflated ego please stop (lol).
As for My comments to Robert Re his Brit M comments . .About 2 weeks ago as you know I lit into Christina . I have aploagised and she accepted. the only reason i bring this up is if I had not i probally wouldn,t have addressed qustions directly at her after saying what i did . Robert compared me and AmyV (probally more her to BritM) than ask me a question .i politly as possible ask him if he still thought that way .
When I disagreed with you on objectivity
thier was no persoal nme calling attached to it . Again thanks for your response to that blog.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Amy I believe you are missing the point of that whole discussion. It began with the notion that some of us (maybe also me) were overanalyzing Mercades in a way that led to a distorted view of her character, and that in itself has nothing to do with her guilt or innocence. I was making a contrast between the way we perceive those who are active and passive, not whether certain words have an emotive effect more than others. It is about the way we perceive people under different conditions, and how sometimes our judgment is skewed by the particular attitude or position or situation we find a person in.

For instance, in your work in the medical field, you may see a person in the capacity of a therapist( don’t know exactly but I’m guessing you do something like that)when they are lying in bed or otherwise in a vulnerable position. So they assume the role of patient and you are in a position of power (in a very loose sense of that word). At another time that same person may assume their own professional role, let’s say this person is a fireman and you are in a burning building and now it is that person who has power and you are the vulnerable one. What I am suggesting is that we change our perceptions in subtle ways depending on whether we perceive them as active or passive, powerful or powerless, and these conditions do not necessarily imply value judgment or whether or not I like a particular word or deem it to have a positive or negative connotation. So continuing this line of reasoning we can see a person as passive (like we see Mercades in the video) and if try to interpret the motives of a person in a passive position we mght err in using the same criteria we would use to interpret the motives of a person in an active position. None of this has to do with guilt or innocence or good or evil actions. It is simply to suggest that if we want to be accurate in our assessment we need to examine our criteria of judgment.

So to illustrate how it might work, let us consider dinosaurs.

Yes, I said dinosaurs. Before the days when Jurassic Park put flesh on their bones, so to speak, dinosaurs were known only as fossilized skeletons we saw in museums. We did not know anything about these creatures, so people projected upon them their unconscious hopes and fears. They were free to do so because the bare skeleton was so eerie and suggestive, and some psychologists have said that for some individuals the dinosaurs could symbolize one’s parents. Please remember this is not something I dreamed up, but the professional opinion of people working in the fields of psychology and Freudian analysis. Now I feel that since the word “monster” was already brought up in connection with the way Mercades was portrayed in some quarters, it would be alright for me to use the dinosaur example here.

Whatever the truth turns out to be, I am suggesting (as I said in the above post) that the way we judge a person would have to be different depending on whether they are active or passive. Of course it is possible for a person who appears completely passive to be very involved either as ringleader or as instigator. But that was not the point I was making in that particular post. I was addressing the question of finding accurate criteria for judging and I suggest again that sometimes sports analogies are appropriate, and you used the word referee and that seems right if we are analyzing the attackers. Sometimes though more appropriate inspiration could come from Dostoevski or Camus and I suggest if we want to understand Mercades some literary figure like Camus’ Mersault might be more helpful.

You also suggest that if we are to be fair in our assessment we should realize that all these girls had problems, including Victoria. And I think we should. Take for example the last post by Electronica which I think gives a plausible (even if unlikely) explanation for events pertaining to the kidnapping phase. If you have read enough of my precious comments here you will realize why I think it is good to exercise our minds like this and look at different explanations.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

BTW that word should have been “previous” and not “precious” Boy, talk about Freudian slips! LOL

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December 16, 2008

MIke

I guess in my previous post, the point at the end was that if you were in the room and didn’t take any action, even mild, the law has to presume you willingly participated. Truth be told, after the fact, people will think of all kinds of excuses for their behavior and all kinds of ways it wasn’t so bad, and all kinds of minor things that, in their mind, relieve the guilt.

But, it is like the person who shoplifts, after you are caught, it is too late to just pay for it or give it back. That time is long past.

Certainly, OJ wishes he had just asked nicely at this point.

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

On Topix Robert Stevens reports that Kayla Hassel cut a deal and is in witness protection and could testify against the others. And if Victoria is to be believed (and why shouldn’t she be?) Kayla Hassel did hit her too. Yet she gets a deal. Is that fair?

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December 16, 2008

gompertz

Correction: plea deal not confirmed.

Mike, of course you know that on this blog we don’t make excuses for anyone. We all look forward to a fair and balanced result which involved appropriate punishments for the accused. While we may differ somewhat about the appropriate lengths of sentences we agree they should be neither too lenient nor too harsh. Most of us also think that looking beyond the punishment there should be remorse and hopefully reconciliation under better circumstances.

I have watched Victoria’s GMA interview several times and she seems to be recovering nicely in a physical sense. Her psychological wounds are deep though. She has apparent lost trust in people and is possibly suffering psychologically in more subtle ways. Those who did this to her need to pay. But don’t you think it would be good for Victoria if, looking beyond the punishment, at least some of those who attacked her repented and asked for forgiveness?

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December 16, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –

I to have ignored many posts made. Go by your gut instinct on this one. I also have been accused of being, let me see, Navigator, Victorias mothers, one of the girls or one of their mothers, ther sheriffs nephew,etc. So knowing I am not is all that really matters. So stay true to your feelings.

This being said sometimes I think me and you are watching two different videos. It could not have been Mercades saying just go because Mercades was standing in front of Victoria at this time and April Cooper was standing almost by her side a little back. The voice came from her direction and very distinctly was hers. At no time during this video did Mercades tell Victoria to go. Her statement was “Did I tell you not to go” repeated twice in reference to the outside incident. This I am positive was the sequence of events. She was not telling her she could go then or go then. That was indeed April Cooper.

As for the ride in the car this was the exact statement by Victoria and yes she was beaten and scared into submissivenss by this time. She said she feared for her life and I have no doubt of that. Mercades had to pickup her grandmother from work this has gone undisputed. Not sure which girl believe it was B.H. said we will take you somewhere and drop you off. They knew they had to get her out of their before Mercades grandmother came home no doubt. Victoria said no I will go somewhere. Mercades was driving, Brittany Mayes was in the car and Brittini Mayes was holding up the rear. The victim plainly stated Brittini Hardcastle took her by the arm and forced her into the car. Was Victoria couldn’t to resist at this point? No way. Scared to death. During the car ride she was told if she went to the police she would get a worse beating, further mental torture. She was made to apologize to all of these girls. I can not even imagine what that must have felt like. Then B.H. backed off to calm Victoria down and said you have learned your lesson (sorry, but how dare here). Mercades clueless to all of this no way. Sorry, This just does not make any sense at all. Hence, yes it was kidnapping.

Electronica – they beat this girl senseless and brutally. Why would it even be a feasible explaination that someone that showed no concern for her well being what so ever when this was happening care if she walked down a dark street? Was she scared Victoria was going to get hurt? Way to late for that one. That show had already gone down. Just going by the facts and what makes sense. El – I am sorry but the other explaination does not make reasonable sense. A jury member would have a very tough time swallowing that one to. Sorry again but I do not think that argument would go well with any judge or jury.

Did realize that this would be considered kidnapping at the time probably not. Is it legally kidnapping absolutely, it does not take a gun or more fighting just extreme fear. Happens with rape and murder victims all of the time. If someone says no they don’t want to go forcing them even if they did have good intentions, still against her will. period.

This went way, way beyond hurt feelings. This was an attack one girl against six physically,verbally and held against her will. Permanent medical damage was done. These girls have to be punished. Even Mercades own mother will tell you that.

She did not ask Mercades and Kayle for the phone she begged for it. This was meet with I’m using it right now. and no reponse from Mercades what so ever. I don’t know whos camera that was that took the picture to Victoria after the fight however, absolutely was Brittini H. who took it.

Honestly, Electronica I do not know what else they could have done to this girl to show her absolutely no mercy what so ever. Not a shred of human kindess. Enjoyment of what they had done to a sickening level.

I know you have grown up differently then me. You are faced with fighting on a daily basis. You have had to learn to fight out of neccessity. I want this to stop for all teenagers. This should not be a part of everyday life and adults have let this behavior go on way to long.

You many totally disagree with me Electronica but fighting, jumping or what happened in this case are not acceptable behaviors. Something needs to be done to put an end to senseless violence. And, that is what this truely is. I will advocate for this whether you respectfully agree or not.

As for sleeping no I do not get enough of that lately. Surely you know what must be keeping me awake. Hard times at home. This Electronica is pain you can not avoid and can not stop. The other is something that is totaly unnesary.

Good night. ignore those who you should.

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December 17, 2008

GregS

Brittini Hardcastle is the same person who runs people off roads

right?

Isn’t that when, you are riding in your car and the person waits

for you to turn a corner at the edge of a cliff, and then they ram their car into yours and try to push you off? Just like in the movies?

Am I supposed to believe someone who does stuff like that feels empathy and is sorry? She seems like a thug to me, maybe a sweet thug but still a thug. I don’t understand what Electronica is trying to say.

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December 17, 2008

MIke

Hard Castle–8 years to 10 years
Cooper–6 years
Mercedes–three years
restitution from all, parents on the hook for it.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

friends cutting deal against friends.Friends don’t do that sort of things to one another
right Victoria !

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geom, I did say that witness protection is likely , for the most part the media turned this into a different game then what it’d be without the media. Personaly if my kid was in it as a suspect, I’d use the media more then it’d use me. Even if Britiney Mayes was my daughter.

Geom, fair was thrown out the window in April, when first the 8 did not just take plead baragians in which they’d be out with in 18 months, and on top of that for Lord only knows why, Cara Murphy’s lawyer began an anti-Victoria Lindsay campaighn. If I was Cara Murphy’s dad we would be sueing the other 5 girls. MJ Lopez getting assighned to this case was the worse thing for everyone.

Again thanks to the media the Hassall family could shoot for being on the witness protection program. If charges are droped on Kayla, it would take a Grade A fool to go to court, knowing Kayla had something on them or could even lie about something.

Part of me has to say that they do deserve it. The curse of Kayla. They choose to go on as they did with 4 teenage co-defendants.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Scott I agree. I really don’t want to stress on how backwards some of the legal moves are. Scott after giving your statement just a little thought, it could explain the timing of The Christina Garcia Lawsuit vs Polk County. I have discussed this case with convict para legals, and they all agree, the timing of this law suit is aweful.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

GregS and AmyV, good to see you guys blogging. AmyV if I hadn’t walked away from posting last night I may have regreted it. Between Utubedetective and having The Anthony case on TV, it was a good night to read a book. I don’t know how my wife watches such upseting stuff. Last night I was tempted to explain why I know electronica is Utubedetective, i’d just say it wouldn’t have been flattering and it would have been disrectful of me to bring such negitivety to this room. Even at the rooms worse moment the civilness of this room has been very good.

Back to GregS and his last blog. The person posting here as Electonica has an agenda. 1st sell the idea the assaulters deserve to serve no time for what they did. 2nd or Plan B. Blame everything on Britini Hardcastle. If you follow the case you’ve seen Hassall and Nichole do this. It appears as Mayes is heading in the same direction.

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December 17, 2008

Scott

Robert, this case should be over by now that’s for sure. It’s not like they don’t have the assault on video. The girls should have been able to cut plea deals back in the summer and they and Tori could have started to put this disaster behind them. But they still aren’t even to firsdt base yet in this case. It’s mindboggling.

Amy and to whomever else is interested. It was April you told Tori to go after she beat her up at the begginning of the assault. And it was Mercades you said to let her go later on in the assault.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Robert, nobody causes you to do anything, its called free will.And what are you talking about with the plea bargains, nobody had denied anything, why must you you do this. I tell ya dude, you’re headed back to the basement and you know what I’m talking about. You need to stop it! They were all offered something very lenient for what the 2 did, why haven’t they excepted? Well, I can’t answer that, but they haven’t denied it. And Utubedetective is in Malibu working on something, we talk on the phone. No need to bring him up in here, as Electronica is not him, she is a teen and for this reason please be more care how you speak to her. And my daughter has my father’s last name it is NicholS not Nicole just for the record.
Gomp:
WTH? Are you kidding me?Please send me the link where he says this. Thanks
Electronica:
The phone was a rebel flag casing, ( this is very shameful for me as everyone here knows how much I hate that flag) sorry if it affends people I just think of violence when I see it. And I understand how you can’t know everything about what crook cops will do including spying on my computer. But they can not just come here and pick up my cpu when I am not a suspect in the case and she wasn’t using my cpu. And you are the closest to the truth then you even know about the car ride. She had agreed to the ride and when Britt was senn she was scared, but BH told her its over now, I am not going to hit you anymore and gave her a coke ( this is wierd to me too) but that is what happened.
Anyv,
The notebook starts the afternoon Mercades was arrested it does not start at the beating, and I don’t feel I would need to bring the beating up because Mercades’ name is well known and unless it took 10 years to publish I doubt anyone would need to be refreshed on the story behind the stroy. I won’t say too much about the book, because I don’t know anymore if I’m even going to do it.And unfortunatley flroida courts may not use lie detectors in court rooms its inadmissable, the only thing they’re good for is detectives to find more evidence or leads.I believe he brought up the “bad place” because Mercades did nothing, I mean even if you knew that one of the 2 had a very bad past would you feel bad for them after what you’ve seen oon the video? Sorry, I just think its different.
Mike:
You think the parents or better yet me should be personally liable to pay restitution? Mercades will be 18 next month and she was 17 when this happened, if she is ordered to pay, you don’t think it would teach a better lesson to order her to work and pay herself? ( Thats if she was ordered to pay anything) Does everyone else think I should pay?
Phil:
Believe or not, I don’t wish that she had never come or stayed,or that Mercades begged to let her stay. And I’ll tell you why, the drive Tori and I had to the BP, she just overwhelmed me with her life story and what she is going through, how angry she was with her father, I’m going to stop there I just don’t think its my place to give out her private details, anyway had she not been at my mom’s I feel she would’ve been worse off or even dead. Out on the streets being a young pretty girl, doing whatever she had to to get a place to stay…the only thing I wish is that her parents had took heed into what my mom was telling them, she tried talking to Telissa while Tori was in her home.
And today is a special day in The Walsh’s house, they can finally be at peace .
And has anyone seen the news about Playboy making a Virgin Mary centerfold or something like that?

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

The Utubedetective campaighn was the ugliest actions I have ever seen, if you want to go that direction it’ll take years for you to recover, in fact I doubt you would. If you’re going back to calling a 17 year old girl a whore, or just turning blind eyes to it, not only will you destroy your own life, but you will also burden your next generation. Your Law Suit shall be a small setlement, but your lack of dignity will get Grady Judd re-elected. You shall be on his campaighn poster. So go back to the extreme darkness that is Utubedetective. Every single negative step you take shall be responded with harshly, so now you use your free will.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Thanks Mike for letting us know how you feel.
When I first learned about this case I thought about maiming and mutilating. Then I put away my toys, took a deep breath, and moved on with my life.

BTW how much time do murderers and rapists serve in Florida?

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

I have never called Tori a whore…what are you trying to do to me? Well, I am sorry that I refused your gift after telling me that you are a witch. I rebuke every word that has come out of your mouth against me in the name of JESUS! NO WEAPONS FORMED AGAINST ME NOR MY FAMILY WILL PROSPER! Although I don’t believe you’re a stalker, you are bad news leave me alone.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Also I don’t think Florida is any worse than elsewhere. In a huge city like New York, there are so many enormous buildings and back alleys and underground passages that truly hideous acts can be done in relative secrecy. I guess Florida isn’t that built up and these things are out in the open.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina you make me laugh. I still pity Mercades, because she has a mom that’s so foolish that she’d file a law suit vs PCSO while she was still in a pretrial stage, one that’s ego is so great she wouldn’t apologize for obvious blunders. You go down that road you increase that negitivety. Use your free will. Has the history of this case not shown what becomes of the evil doers, the evil actions. You know you’d rather have seen Mercades jumped, because you know in the end, those that commited the evil , will suffer greater consequences. Now continue, I guarentee what ever negativety you muster shall be responded with, with three times the force of negitvety you gave. You know that’s the way it’s been since day1. It won’t won’t stop.
You fool, you still have time, and that is all ways the advantage of good.

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December 17, 2008

Scott

Robert, how do you know that Cara Murphy’s attorney Melodie Lopez started the anti Victoria campaign?

And what exactly is the curse of Kayla? The fact that she likes to talk and can’t keep secrets?

Mikes wants serious jail time for the girls. Wow. I think the most they will get is half of what Mike wants.

Please Christina don’t reveal details about Tori that were told to you privately.

I’m happy for the Walsh’s. But closure for them should have happened back in the 1980’s not in 2008.

Aas for the Virgin Mary Mexican Playboy cover it’s just sad. It was done in poor taste.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Scott, as usual your words offer good sense and wisdom and yes Playboy is in poor taste as usual.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Scott: You don’t need to ask me that, as I have said in my prior post I will not disclose anything.

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December 17, 2008

Scott

Robert, blaming Hardcastle will only go so far for the other girls. Sure Brittini did the most damage to Tori but the other others relished in Tori’s being injured and humiliated. That much is obvious from the video. And Kayla, Brittany and April put their hands on Tori too.

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December 17, 2008

Garland

In my opinion, the ones who started the Anti-Victoria campaign are very sad individuals who need help. They need to get a life, seriously. It’s people like them that make me so mad. Karma will catch up to them for what they’re doing.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Garland, Scott and others. Yes the attack was the beginning, but not actually. See for some of the 8 it wasn’t enough humilation for Tori to have a group of girls waiting to jump her, causeing a scene that got some arrested.

Ok let me jump to April 1st, from April 1st to the 11th there was MJ Lopez Cable TV tour. You could find what I am talking about on youtube. Lopez and Garcia appeared on Greta Van Sustren and Nancy Grace. Lopez and Garcia slandered the young victim, you could read the comments at those vlogs and see what the public thought of this campaighn.

On April 11th the lawyers, and the family of The 8 were gaged. Christina Garcia would have you believe this was via order of the PCSO , no it was from above them. Most likely the gag was requested by one of the 8’s attornies, because of the wonderful job the Garcia and Lopez did for the popularity of the 8 (Eletronica, I am being sarcastic). Also on youtube is the Utubedetective, on July 6th Utubedetective comes out with an abusive video of the beating. Futher abusing the victim by slow motioning the beating and making assinine comments.

Now here we see Garcia is still down with the anti-Victoria Lindsay campaighn. I am guarentting Christina Garcia if she does go down the negitive road, it’ll be the biggest mistake of her life.

If she had acted with dignity and in positive terms that first week in April, right now the world will be her oyster, instead she’s putting herself in an island, four walls she’ll have to stay in because those 4 walls will be all she has.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

somebody please call this person out on this comment, like asking for a link. I have never appeared with Lopez EVER! And the only thing that could ever be considered disrespectful that I said towards tori was on a local channel 8 news which I have already explained and said sorry on this topic in here.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

While I have been on the Greta show, never have I been on with Lopez! And nothing negative was said about Tori on there.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

LOL dam can someone be this stupid, I was never on Nancy Grace personally ever! Maybe she played clips she slummed around and found on the internet, but never was on there. And everyone here knows JUDD was gagged because he was talking too much, you are just proving yourself stupid where I don’t have to say a word : ) Tell us, on top of being a witch are you bipolar by chance?

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

To Robert Stevens: Interesting you mention the slow-motion video of April hitting Victoria, but I can’t find it anywhere. Is it still up? Reading the commentaries people couldn’t agree on whether the video was pro-8 or anti-8 and many said Utubedetective was trying to raise issues and make people think, but that he didn’t have an agenda. Do you know what he was trying to say? I watched the video a few months ago but now it seems to be gone. Maybe it’s possible to bookmark these things.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina are you trying to use being on a satelite hook up as a techniquly you where not on the show with her. It’s right there on youtube. You droped the ball, all you had to do was send a positive message, from there Talisa Lindsay was going to give you a cover up tour which began with an interview with Poeple Magazine. Because Lopez and yourself couldn’t play well with others, now these kids will do some prison time.

So let’s come into the now, your worse enemy because you could never live in it. You go down that ugly road with ugly people that make ugly vlogs, omly exposing their own sickness, as they attempt to tease a young girl into further into doubt. What’s your hope if she offs herself she can’t sue you. The world will stand behind Victoria Lindsay and you plan will back fire royally. I don’t say you’re screwed, I say you’re screwed when you walk down that road. Yes, There are two paths you can go down, but there’s still time to change the road you’re on. You don’t recall this is a song of hope.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Ok, let me make this clear for the one in the class that doesn’t pay attention, I have NEVER EVER spoken to Nancy Grace, what I was saying is that maybe she pulled a clip from the channel 8 or today show interview. There I hope that clears things up.OMG…you are sick talking about her offing herself : *( get out of here. You are so evil

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

I never saw Christina on Nancy Grace though Nancy played the video over and over and discussed it with lots of lawyers. I must have missed that show.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christine I just googled it you were gaged from 4/11 to 4/24, the next day you made up you made the youtube user mamiconrazon, and on that same day your friends youtube user was also made you know malibu ken

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

In Jesus Name, I cut and burn all ungodly silver cords and lay lines. As your war club and weapons of war, I break down undam, and blow up all walls of protection aound all witches, warlocks, wizards, satantists, sorcerers, and the like, and I break the power of all curses, hexes, vexes, spells, charms, fethishes, psychic prayers, psychic thoughts, all witchcraft, sorcery, magic, voodoo, and all mind control, jixes, potions, bewitchments, death, destruction, sickness, pain, torment, Psychic power,psychic warfare, prayer chains, incense and candle burning, incanations, chanting, ungodly blessings, hoodoo. Crystals, rootworks, and everything else being sent mine, my families’, The Lindsay’s family’s way, or any deliverance ministries way and I return it and the demons to the sender, and I bind it to them in the blood of Jesus.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Amyv
I just loved your last 3 post welcome back . That was the same attitude and conviction that you used to use agree 100%
It can get very frustrating reading these blogs , To me every reason that can get thought of to take blame away from these girls has been used . it dosen.t matter what the victim says , Was any one else in the room besides BritH and BritM .i know April made a small apperance and wasn’t really trying to hurt her then the all drove her to a place of her choice and bought her a pepsi. If it wasn’t for that scary Brit H none of this would of happened .

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Ok then Christina what is the goal of Utubedetectives’ July 6th vlog and what’s the goal of yourself and others when you guys tell the world. “We’re not done exposing Tori.” You go on with this attitude you’ll suffer the consequences because everyone will stand behind the 17 year old victim, as you continue to aimlessly put her down, and fail to assist her. I don’t damn you , you’ll damn yourself. Let me now go someplace else and apologise for my actions here.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Phil:

Look, you guys ask what the facts are, I tell you then they get accused of making up excuses. I just wont offer anymore information, I think that would be best for yes Me. My nerves can’t take anymore.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Christina In the name of Jesus that is exactly what is happening. All the evil actions you have done and plan on doing will come back to you in spades. I told you, I even tried to put you in the right frame of mind. I explain you needed exercise, I told you to be nice to everyone. Jesus is making sure all will come back to you. You can not escape your karma. The selfishness of file a law suit against a department that has a voice in the sentencing of these 5 teens. Until you commit yourself to Jesus and his teachings, you will suffer his wrath. keep mentioning jesus, because ignorance is an excuse he takes.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Robert ‘You seem to get very volitile when something dosen’t go your way especially where it concerns Christina .You seem to be attacking more and more people in an unhealthy way . Are you sure this Subject is a healthy endevour for you . First you said i may not be talking to the real Christina . Now Electronica is Utubedetective,who’s secret goal is to convice me and others not to want any punishment
for the defendants And we shouldn’t attack Christina but you do .
Just to let everybody Know I am not Phil , I shall now be refered to as
UtubeBlogger . My secret misson is to convince everybody to really want harsh sentences ,ruin any pleas deals get us all on the jury and i am the arch enemy of Utubedetective,,

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

That’s perfectly fine Christina because if you and your pals MJ Lopez and Utubedetective did that 6 months ago this whole thing would be over for most including your daughter, with the others never seeing prison. Instead, you showed Grady Judd, if you could get more hated you’ll even get him re elected. So go out there go with your goofy Victoria was a good for nothing slut that only drew trouble, becuase you will summon your own demons.

It is a crying shame so many have to suffer because YOU can’t do a good PR tour that would make all look like nice teens.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Yep, and I’m really Strawberry Shortcakejust so everybody knows.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Phil, I do understand what you are saying, but I stand by it because the MJ Lopez tour was that bad, and the Utubedetective vlog posted on July 8th was that bad. It was indeed a slowed down video of Victoria getting beat with Utubedetective giving assinine comments with every second of the first 2 minutes of the beating. I do hold it againt Christina she not only said nothing against the video, but she also made friends with the jerk. OK Phil you tell me what was the goal of the vlog, it was so bad it was removed by YouTubeAdmin for promoting violence against teens. it only took YouTubeAdmin a month and a half.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

I’m the culprit now because I am not getting on TV and lieing about my feelings? And since when am I the spokes person for all the teens? Excuse me, but I believe they all have parents too.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Hi Phil, I kind of suspected you were really Dr. Phil all along LOL ROTFL

I thought the sheriff and SAO refused to make plea deals from the very start. They had the video, the video speaks for itself, etc why make plea deals especially when polls showed over 20% of respondents favored the death penalty. Or is that Christina’s fault?

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

wethere I am liked or unliked on here, people respect that I don’t lie, wethere its what people want to hear or not I speak How I feel.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

OK you tell me which is the road of evil.

A. Promote good relations with all involved, except the past, and work with where you are and what you got.

B. Continue to slander the victim and make it clear you’re not going to stop. Declare war on the agencies in control.

And Phil, I am not big on the harsh sentences. I do however say if they never do any time, they won’t be respected in society, and we could all see and hear how much that means to them.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geom, I find it very hard to believe they couldn’t plead bargain. Is it Christina’s fault hmmm, a little. Christina could have made her statements clear. She could have told MJ Lopez to please stop. She could have flaged Utubedetective instead of Ijustgotjumped at youtube. Her and her pro-8s on youtube put the fires out with gasoline.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

That’s good Christina but maybe the object was that you thought before you spoke. It’s all funny until someone is stuck in a prison cell for years.

Yes, I do blame it on those meat headed parents that acted like their kids did nothing or down played it to the media, and the lawyers that keep pushing a trial.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Christina . I expect you to believe what Mercades told in regards to all things not on the tape or what she was thinking at the time ,after all you are her mother . Just because she told you her version does not make it the truth . or just because you say that is what happened that i should believe it . I understand the grey area when we are guessing or what this phrase meant or who really said this and it could mean this , But when the victim clearly state that this is whaat happened then i don’t understand why lately. most peoples slant have been to lessen the responsibility of everyone but Brit H. Christina you are her mother i do not include you in this in anway . I am not interested in trying to convince you that you are wrong but I will chalange points from you the same way as i do others .
P.s
I really liked your last comment to me about Victoria .I would have thought you would have wished other things and it was refreshing to hear differently considering what this has cost your family .

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December 17, 2008

MIke

Gompertz–My mouth was agape when I looked at your post saying that you moved on and got a life. I don’t call blogging here several times a day any kind of life.

This will be my last posting, I just happened to read the thread last night. Interesting, but not worth spending tons of time on.

Chris–until a minor is 18, they are mom and pop’s responsibility. Mercedes might learn by having to pay some, but I think a lot of parents would take note if you had to pay for damage your daughter caused.

If you are going to take responsibility and credit for the good things kids do, you gotta take the same for the bad.

Anyway, good luck to all.

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of piper gets paid.

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December 17, 2008

Christina Garcia

Phil:
I understand and respect your ” I’m her mom and can’t talk against her theory” but please keep in mind I have not always favored her with what I have said in the past, I mean I called her a coward which was very hard for me to swallow. Please keep this in mind when debating if you should believe things I say. But I still think its best that I give out no more facts about what happened, it only causes more pain

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Phil you make me laugh, all the guilty parties had to do was cooperate with authorities. Make a few deals with the civil suit, and all this would be over, and even after Victoria got her cut, all the girls would have been well paid.

Ok don’t believe me, but I am guarenting if The8 do continue to go negative they will deeply regret it. Let’s not leave out if they do go with the all vs Hardcastle stradegy, they will never life that down. Never.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

BINGO Christina, you should not tell the story. Everyone should only tell their own story, and you even said that. Your role should be a good will ambassador. Because you sound so petty every single time you say anything bad about Tori.

Look at Talisa Lindsay, she’s playing Good will ambassador, you droped the ball when you did not follow suit. It really isn’t too late. Then again you could scheme with Utubedetective and make a complete ___ of yourself. Stay in that gutter and you’ll wake up in the gutter.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Christina .When i first came on this bolg ‘and you defended Mercades I was so mad .I lashed out at you because you were as close as i could get to the defendants and I really wanted to lash out at them . So when i objected to a point you made it had an edge big time .Who were you to defend these people ..I have said to you twice now that i do not know if being on this blog is good for you . it is good for us but mayby not good for you .I truely do not know yours and Roberts history but why bother returning any of his replys .I hope you always speak what you feel I know I will and i hope that you will allow that from me as well . .I am now enjoying more our debates as i do with Gomp and others . Of couses I still do not wish you well in your law suit . .Once i truley held you in disdain now i wish you only the best. A car should never stop for a barking dog. If you are sure in what you believe the rest of it is doen’t matter.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Mike, good point about blogging, I know there’s more to life than that.

Robert Stevens, when they charged them as adults and the charges included life imprisonment, could they reasonably expect a deal at that point? Even if there were a plea deal that would have meant a lesser sentence, what about being stuck with felony status, which, I believe, includes being registered as a sex offender for life? Not all plea deals are created equal. And it looks like the sheriff wasn’t backing down at that time, since all this fell into his lap just in time for the election. Funny how plea deals only came into the picture after he got re-elected. Just wondering.

Now I’m going to take Mile’s advice and leave for a while, be back later.

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December 17, 2008

Robert Stevens

Geom, 1st off they would not be part of Megan’s Law or have a Meagans alert. The 8 all ready have restraining orders put on them, and no trial can change that. That is as good as having a crime conviction on your record when it comes to school acceptance and job aplications.

DEAR PHIL. Let me ask what an I telling Christina that is an attack. I am pointing out that any negativety she pushes in this case will have consequences, just as all the negative actions to this date have had.

I still support her, but to tell her to continue following an agenda that resembles what she did in April. I may as well just tell her to go to hell, because the results of more Utubedetective tactics will put her there. just curious did you see the vlog I am complaining about.

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December 17, 2008

Trench Reynolds

I’ve basically abandoned this thread because I just don’t have the time to respond to everyone.

And while I don’t agree with Ms. Garcia’s actions as I posted about above she has been nothing but respectful in this thread. You Robert Stevens have not and have done nothing but badger Ms. Garcia. Therefore you are banned from this site, you are not welcome here, and you’re not worthy enough to be from New Jersey.

I bid you good day.

For everyone else, I just wanted to address a little pet peeve of mind. When I write one of my posts I’m blogging. When you leave a comment your commenting. I’m the blogger. You’re the commenters.

Carry on.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

To Scott
how do you manage to make good points in less than a paragraph it takes me a whole page just to get my greeting in

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Trench, thank you. You did the right thing.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
you mentioned that we didn’t need Nazi police deciding what was appropriate or not ,After this I am not so sure .
Trench certainly did the right thing
That being said I sure would like that frame around my comments

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December 17, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
you were saying just a short time ago that we do not need any type of blog police to tell us what we can say.
After this i am not so sure.
I agree with you Trench did the right thing
I guess that means i can’ be UtubeBlogger any more .
oh well.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Phil, no Nazis please, just good freedom-loving police will do. : )

I’m getting more respect for you all the time, you made a lot of great observations.

Victoria’s friend (or relative) on Topix says she is doing okay, or rather, as well as can be expected. But the family seems to be coping in spite of financial worries, according to this person.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Sorry did not know first one got sent
My bad

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December 17, 2008

Trench Reynolds

With great power comes the frame.

I’m not participating in this thread but I am watching.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Phil, you can’t be Utubeblogger but you can still be Utubecommenter.

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December 17, 2008

Scott

Trench, blogging sounds more important than just commentating. )

Trench, you banned Robert Stevens? You’re kidding. No warnings?

Was Robert The Viking from Youtube?

Robert did make an excellent point today how Talisa Lindsay has been a good will ambassador in this whole sad assault episode. I know I couldn’t act the kind and caring way Talisa has with as much physical and mental damage those girls did to Tori. Now way. I commend the Lindsay’s on how they have handled things.

Thanks for the nice words Phil. I just don’t have the time or energy to write long posts so I tend keep ’em short. )

Gomp, I’m trying to get Unknown from Topix to post here.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Scott, there are a lot of things that are unclear about this Viking episode or whatever name he used over there but let’s just say I’m thankful for timely intervention from Trench. How does the term “Blogmeister” sound?

You are right about the Lindsay family and how well they handled it all.
As for Unknown posting here, maybe yes maybe no. We can’t expect that we should have the right to pester people who know Victoria with endless questions about her, and I’m afraid that might happen here. Why here more than at Topix, let’s just say I have a feeling about it but can’t explain and my feelings turn out right much more often than not.

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December 17, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
Thank you for your comments .
This is a good place to share opinions ,I have had some of my opinions very harshly critisized as of late , i think thats a great thing .They should be .I am not as concerned with the punishments as much now .I think that has already been decided .I am a bit suprised thy have’t tried to bury it in the C Anthony case.
Mine and Amy’s concern is that they get punished for what happened .
We hear how a pepsi was bought , A cell phone was given {an hour after it was asked for } ,We hear how you cant tell who really said hurt her or who sent what text or which one was holding the phone when this message was sent . Which on was a little nicer .All these little nuances are allowing these girls to To escape thier responsibility and reduce thier guilt because “I wasn’t quite as bad as that one” .Punish them for the brutality and humiliation that they willingly and ruthlessly inflicted on Victoia .Because the real truth is Whoever didn’t hit , humiliated and encouraged those that did one time or another.If You were not holding the camera you were adjusting the lighting for those that did . If you didn’t lock the door you allowed it to stay locked .Remember the first time you saw the tape the helplessness we felt was a miniscule compared to what Victoria went though .They have to be punished for what they did colectively as well as what they
did individually . They are more guilty than the sum of thier indivual actions .

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December 17, 2008

Phil

Amy hope you agree with me including your name in the above post . I think this has been some of what we were trying to say Sorry if you were offended .

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I’ve been criticized harshly too, and that is good. Mostly the criticisms are fair, very rarely I feel unfair. I think some of the disagreements have been not about interpreting the facts but just from having a different focus. I also want this thing to end up with sentencing by a judge and jury according to fair and balanced guidelines, not with plea deals. I don’t disagree about the guilt, and I would like to see the court sort out degree of guilt and length of sentences. I have grown weary of looking at the many discussions on different sites that look in great detail at every available piece of evidence and the more closely they look at every nuance the more confused it seems to get.

There is no argument about guilt, even if some are more guilty than others. Depends how you measure guilt. Is the one who hit the hardest the most guilty? Or is it the one who caused the most psychological pain.

My main concern is, now that the evil deed is done, what now? First, the questions I have about plea deals. There are all kinds of plea deals and the only reason I know that is that I have friends who have been through the system, some are in prison right now. I have no interest in legal technicalities and the only thing I know about the law is from people who have experienced it personally. They get out of prison long enough to buy me beer and I listen to their stories.

Usually these people will accept a deal to get a reduced sentence but they still get a felony on their record. So they are out of luck when it comes to getting a job, sometimes they have to hide their background to get a job as janitor. So now I ask, what about the plea deals they are working on in this case? I’m guessing now, maybe the deal is, you avoid prison by pleading guilty to a felony and you have that felony on your record when you look for a job or apply for schools. I hear that in Florida when you get a kidnapping conviction you have to register as a sex offender. Even in this case. And it has nothing to do with Meaghan’s Law. Anyway I speculate about what it is that is taking them so and then I realize maybe it is not so simple to decide. What if these girls were offered the opportunity to avoid prison, take something like house arrest, but accept permanent felon status? Would they take it? Maybe, because being young they might not think about the future and what permanent felon status would mean for their future. That is an example of the kind things they might have to weigh in the balance, at least that is what my knowledgeable friends say.

But what I would want to know is what is the possibility for rehabilitation. We cannot read their hearts. That is why we don’t know if any of them are truly evil, like Casey Anthony (assuming she did it) or if they can be redeemed. Onecrazy thought I had when watching that video was if only I had been there to talk these people out of it, I could have stopped it and they would have seen the light. And yes I know that is extremely unlikely, but then again I’m a little crazy.

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December 17, 2008

gompertz

Anyway I don’t think what is discussed here will have any effect on what the courts do in this case. Nobody from the prosecution came to me and asked for my opinion. Where I think these discussion scould have an effect is in what happens in the future, maybe not in this case but in how we deal with bullying and victims of bullying, at least among our personal acquaintances. I know a few people who have learned a lesson from watching this and similar videos and are sending their kids to martial arts lessons and that is a good start.

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December 18, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I like the term blogmeister. I bet Trench does too. 🙂

And I doubt Unknown will post here.

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December 18, 2008

GregS

Gomp, Casey Anthony is either evil or retarded.

And it doesn’t matter to me whats in someones heart, what matters is what they did and whether or not they pay the consequences. As far as I’m concerned, evil itself could be a mental disorder, and evil people could be mentally ill, but none of this would change that their behavior is unacceptable

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December 18, 2008

Phil

To Gomp
with you it always comes down to the martial arts (lol)

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December 18, 2008

gompertz

Greg and Phil, the reason I seem less concerned about punishment is that there is nothing I can do about what happened or what the courts do about it. Though I have ideas about what I would like to see the courts do and what not to do, they won’t listen to me. Where I think we as a society can make a difference is with what happens next, if not with these individuals but with the problem of bullies and victims as a whole.

And, yes, martial arts plays a part though there are many other aspects t it, but right now, today is Thursday and that means for the rest of the day I will be preoccupied with my Tai Chi lessons. 🙂 : )

Be back later.

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December 18, 2008

Christina Garcia

Phil, I had stated earlier that i would find out who said ” hit her” ( it wasn’t hurt her) and I told you that you were correct.

Thank you to Treyonlds ( maybe ms)

To everyone here:
Okay, without attacks ( which I think we’ve all gotten over) Can you please tell me why it wouldn’t be right for me to recieve a settlement from the PCSO? I know its hard but please put the other case to the side for a moment, Mercades will have her day in court. Okay, we have a Sheriff that I feel took away my right as a mother to make sure my kid learns a very valueable lesson in all this. You see , I feel very cheated. He took that power away ( with an agenda) played with our lives including my 7 year old, dafamed me as a mother ( yes I know my daughter did a good job of that as well some might say) but wether they were lies or just plain laziness of not researching he made many statements about me on The Today Show and Glenn Beck. Untrue statements mind you. He told the associated press that Mercades was the ringleader ( only for the public to find out that isn’t true per Tori’s words) Out of the few interviews I did I made one bad statement which was twisted turned cut and pasted to boot. Now, The Sheriff says all these things that urn out to be untrue and nobody wonders about this guy? My ex idiot lawyer sends the lawsuit letter ( Intent to Sue) to them which by the way I knew nothing about ( I mean I didn’t sign and date anything) it was agreed that it would be held until after a trial or a verdict in the criminal case. He released Mercades’ mugshot from juve before she was ever even charged as an adult, provoking many many angry people into making death threats on our entire family, one even said I should do a Post Abortion : ( My question is why couldn’t he have done his complete investigation as are the Orlando Police in the ANthony case kept her mugshot, address, and phone numbers out of the public relm for the time being. Yes, I know inquiring minds want to know, but the outcome would’ve been btter for everyone had he just done his job and kept his mouth shut until he could get his facts staright. Mercades had a Public Defender, until he provoked so much anger, I respect that the video was enough to make anyone mad, but packed on with many lies about myself and Mercades as well was a stunt for himself. Bottom line is this, He put myself and my mother in a terrible situation, causing me number 1 to mortgage a house that was free and clear and secure for my family with no payments to hire a high priced attorney, and 2 my mom had to mortgage hers off. Do you know what her second bond was? 85500.00! For Mercades. I have seen murders and rapists not get such a high bail. What he thought was hey this family doesn’t have money to get her out, and although it took close to a week or 2, we did get her out. Now, the number 2 I do blame in part the dumb attorney. He did wrong and he will pay by $$ or sent out of office or both. I would like to see Micheal Lashman in his chair. He wants to come in and clean house, he was not on the ballot but we went out of campained for him, he recieved more votes in Polk County than anyone ever has that wasn’t on the ballot! I guess maybe he really thought he was dealing with a mom that didn’t care about her kid as he portrayed me on National TV. I’m sorry guys, he has to pay. Just as the girls have to pay for what each did to Tori. PERIOD. Look, I admire everyone’s opinions here and I really do listen with reason. I mean after a couple people on here voicing thier opinion about the book idea, I don’t think I’ll be publishing it, but please put yourself in my shoes for a moment. I can’t find work, the police will not protect us against violence, and they stated that in front of Kalina. I don’t want to get rich off this, I just want my life back : *( I will lose my house Jan. 29th if I don’t get a payment in there, please guys think well before replying. I only want whats right and fair

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December 18, 2008

Electronica

amy yes we are watching two different vids! like scott said i was talking about the first vid when brittis beatin tori. in that vid a girl yells this:

run away. open the door and let her run away. let her run away. let her run away.

thats what she says i type it as i hear it. after that its hard to hear but she says shes not gonne fight back. i guess she means let her run away shes not gonne fight so whats the point.

and i think its merc her voice sure sounds the same like when she said dont hit the shelf and dont hit the glass and mercs mom said it was merc in people so its merc no?

and amy im sorry you cant sleep i understand i wasnt thinking when i wrote about it i was just thinking ppl like you and gomp need more sleep.

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December 18, 2008

Electronica

ms. garcia thank you for saying im not that youtube person i was ignoring the new guy who was saying that but it was hard i didnt like what he was saying about me it wasnt true and it wasnt fair.

and ms. garcia im sorry about the house and the bail its lots of money i dont understand why it was so much. and if you didnt have the money or didnt care does it mean merc would still be in jail? i mean how could she have so much money if shes only 17? hows it fair to be stuck in jail just cause your parents dont have money or dont care about you?

and ms. garcia does it mean if merc doesnt agree to plea you dont get back the bail money in time and you lose your house? so if merc doesnt think the deals fair shes thinking she has to say shes guilty so she doesnt make you lose the house?

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December 18, 2008

Christina Garcia

Electronica:
We will never see any money back, only a release of lien when the court is over. And what you are saying is exactly what Judd was thinking! No money, no Bail! But my house payments don’t have anything to do with her going back to jail

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December 18, 2008

Scott

Christina it’s a shame you might lose your house. That’s terrible. As is the police saying they won’t protect you and your family from violence. If you secretly recorded a cop saying that to you you would win your case against them. I am sure Tori and her family don’t want you to start he new year broke and losing your house. Especially with a 7 year old living in the house. Good luck. I think your suit against the PCSO is motivating you and keeping you pumped up when you could be down in the dumps.

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December 18, 2008

Scott

Oh by the way Christina, I too thought the bail was high for those arrested for Tori’s assault. I would be interested to find out what kind of bail the PCSO offers pedophiles and rapists. It better be high.

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December 18, 2008

Christina Garcia

well, lets go take a look at Grady Judd’s nephew’s arrest. Violation of probation for malesting a child under 12 Marcus Judd. I haven’t looked yet, but lets go look and see.

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December 18, 2008

Christina Garcia

5000.00 bail for him for his 1st affense.

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December 18, 2008

Trench Reynolds

Blogmeister. I like the sound of that. 🙂

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December 18, 2008

Scott

Interesting point Christina about the bail for Sheriff Judd’s nephew. It makes you go hmmm.

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December 18, 2008

Phil

To Christina
I have read your reqeust quite a few times in regards to your lawsuit You know pretty much my views. .I can try to give you another response if you would like but you know by now I say what I think and feel .. It would be hard for me to comment without talking personal opinions as well as legal.
If you still like to me to resond . I will
if not not offense taken.

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December 18, 2008

GregS

gompertz Martial arts are the only way left to prevent bullying. Kickboxing would have saved Tori. Even knowledge If more people know martial arts, bullies will have to think twice about who they are fighting with. It seems in martial arts there is a lot less bullying going on because it’s just like with guns, when more people have weapons theres less senseless violence because you pay the consequences directly.

Example, you bully Tori, she goes and tells her sparring partners and they get payback. I realize it’s violent, but I realize violence is necessary in that situation. The cops can’t do anything but make it worse.

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December 18, 2008

Amyv

Electronica – Yes we were talking about two different tape episodes. That was not Mercades voice. She was on the couch. That voice I believe was Brittany Mayes. It was not meant for her to leave then. It was stated as if she had run away from fighting someone in the past.

Sorry, No door was open for her to leave. They were not letting her get out. period. Absolutely without a doubt did not come of Mercades mouth.

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December 18, 2008

Amyv

Christina –

I have said before sometimes their is a fine line you just go near enough bashing the victim then pull back. No one really calls you on it. Except.
The statement you made about your conversations with Victoria about her “troubles” crossed that line.

Yes,Victoria should have been living at home. You umm..implied her family live was so horrible
etc. If she was living out on the street she couled have been killed. Instead she found the comfort of her ‘good friends’ home was lured home, savagely beaten, humiliated, taped and kidnapped. Her crime was ending up around these girls.

Their might be money made off of this case. No worries I am sure you willl make a little one way or another. After all that is what this blogs is about right?

Victorias parents have been respectful towards your daughter. You surely have no defense for your implications about her or them.

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December 19, 2008

gompertz

It does seem that I get to sleep about the time most people are waking up. I still need more self-discipline about the sleep thing, so hopefully I will make a little sense here.

Greg, I fully agree about the importance of martial arts, what I question is this. The lessons can be expensive and many people can’t afford to pay. In old China masters kept the teachings a closely guarded secret as we know. Today things are more open and while I am a believer in the free market system, sometimes the results of free market competition lead to imbalances between rich and poor that society finds in its interests to alleviate. This can be done in a fair and balanced way, so while we don’t want people dependent on government handouts we also don’t let people starve. Also we provide things like job training that enable people to get back on their feet if they fall on hard times. I wonder if you think there is anything that should be done to assist children of poor people to get the self-defense training available to the children of the more affluent. For instance, financial assistance speicifcally designated for martial arts lessons for children of the poor. Also, should martial arts instructors assume the responsibility to reach out t qualified students who are too poor to pay?

On the same subject but from a more personal perspective I know lots of families here who, while not living in poverty, are immersed in financial hardships like mortgage payments and say they simply can’t afford the lessons for their children. In a few cases I succeeded in talking the parents into it, but usually I am up against a stone wall and there comes a point where further discussion would only have a negative effect. After all, one doesn’t want to tell people how to raise their kids because at some point they will resent it and you don’t get anywhere. But I just hate to see the kids being deprived of something they need in today’s harsh social environment. I have tried all kinds of arguments, pointing out that in the long run you will save on medical bills because of the health benefits of martial arts. And these people are aware of the violence in the schools, they have been shown the “girlfight” videos and they know about the Lakeland case. Is there anything more I can say or do for these people or should I just leave it alone?

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December 19, 2008

gompertz

Amy tired as I am I had to say this because going to bed. Yes, someone did “call” Christina on her choice of words and that person was the same one who says Electronica is really Utubdetective. That person came here admonishing us to be nice to Christina and seemed to lay down rules for what is permissible and then he violated his own rules. Seems he was the one with the agenda and not Christina but if you think she does, well, you are entitled to say what you want, and like I told Phil neither I no anyone else has the right to be the “blog nazi.”

About Victoria’s life style it is nobodys business. Still, please remember the evidence for that comes from a relative of hers on Topix who defends her. What I said before about how independent and obstinate she is,that comes from Victoria’s defender. I know you son’t read Topix anymore but that person came back to Topix the other day and added a few words about how she is doing and it gave me great joy to here those simpke words that she is doing well. That was all I needed and I didn’t ask any more questions because to my way of thinking it would have been in poor taste to ask any more. Not everyone over there is as reticent as I and all sorts of questions being asked but that is not my concern.

Still I think the people who know Victoria personally are entitled to offer their insights and sometimes maybe the words don’t come out right but I don’t think anything has been said that would make us go back to the former way of expressing ourselves. Amy please understand I am only offering my opinion here and you have the right to say what you want. gn

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December 19, 2008

GregS

gompertz rich people aren’t necessarily taught the secrets. It’s not about rich an poor, it’s about good and evil, and we must train the Jedi, otherwise the forces of darkness will overtake whats left of humanity.

The battle is spiritual, and money is just another weapon. And while many people like to attack Christina, I think she’s on our side in this spiritual battle. She loves her kids and does not want hell on earth for them anymore than I do.

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December 19, 2008

GregS

Gomp, when the student is ready, the teacher should appear. The government should use the voucher system combined with self defense tax credits, that way we can build “schools”, ninja/jedi/kungfu self defense oriented schools, which train students for both college and teaching them the spiritual and physical self defense necessary to survive in our new harsher environments.

It should be a type of military school, and only the kids who pass a psychological exam and who have the highest integrity should be let in. Basically an exam school, but it should be an integrity exam so that all the rotten kids won’t be accepted.

What say you all? Is this the best idea?

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December 19, 2008

GregS

I think to implement the idea you’d need to create a charter school, the school would be the first of it’s kind, maybe Victoria and ex bullies could give a speech to the first generation of students.

I’ve actually been planning a self defense school for a while. It would be a school like all other schools in that it will take the core subjects, but the students would specialize in self defense. They’d focus on becoming better people rather than doing useless calculations. It would be like the Harvard or Yale, but with a self defense/survivalist focus. We should market it to the students in environments where survival is not easy.

Spiritual self defense does not mean just kickboxing, it includes every kinda self defense, learning to deal with gossip and psychological vampires is as important as learning to deal with thieves and physical bullies.

I would offer boxing, karate, kung fu, kickboxing, sparring and work them up to prize fighting if they choose it. Also stunt training, bodyguard, or law enforcement would be some of the types of jobs we’d train them for.

Jackie Chan went to one of these kinds of schools. Also if you look at the concept in Harry Potter of a wizard school, it can actually work.

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December 19, 2008

Christina Garcia

Amyv:

As I said before I don’t want to ” make money off of it” as you said. I just want my normal life back : ( Look, I don’t live in a mansion. If I was planning on making money, I would say to heck with the house I live in and its mortgage and just wait and buy a huge house afterwards. No, I want things put back the way they were, just like telling a child to put back thier toys. Please put things away and back where they go Judd, Thanks.
Ok, because of that fine line you speak of, I will not discuss any why’s or wherefore’s. No matter what it shouldn’t have happened. I only want to say my comment was not made to bash or insult her, it is what it is and thats it. Just like that situation with Judd bashing the gay guy, my religious beliefs say gay is wrong, but I would never feel as though a gay man deserved to die because he is gay, that is wrong wrong wrong! I feel like her past further makes her a victim. I mean how can we say her parents are perfect but yet she lived with friends for who knows how long or how many places. Or turn around and say Telissa and daddy were perfect and Tori was the one with troubles? My personal knowledge of her and Telissa makes me have alot of respect for Telissa. Look, I wasn’t the perfect mom to Mercades either, and if asked I feel The Lindsay’s would say they made thier own mistakes and do things differently now, but no matter what TORI IS A VICTIM! Have you ever heard the saying ” No matter where you go, there you are” ?
Respectfully,

Gregs:
You are so right, I remember when I was a child 70’s 80’s . Although not perfect, life was good, What happened to our world? Some of us made mistakes with our children maybe..ie. ” Oh, I’m not going to be like mom or dad”. But I was strict on her maybe too strict as it only took months for her to get into this mess and maybe break all the rules at one time. Anything that happened to me as a child I worried may happen to her, and I had to save her from. ie. I broke both of my legs on a trampoline at 4 years I was wearing a body cast that had a bar between my legs, my daddy carried me everywhere, I remember my dad owned duplexes behind our house, I woke up in the afternoon one day and yelled for my mommy, she didn’t come, I layed there for what felt like a lifetime to a 4 year old, later I found out she left me there sleeping while she cleaned the duplexes for my dad, in the 70’s maybe this wasn’t a big deal but it scared me, and when I had Mercades I said I will always be in her face, never leave her and of course she was never allowed to go on a trampoline, she has never had a broken bone in her body thus far : ) I feel there were too many goverment or state officials that said to kids ” Hey, you don’t have to take crap from your parents, just call DCF and we’ll help you. Children being taken out of homes for the parents speaking ( NOT BEATING) then put into other homes sometimes very violent abusive foster homes..like that one where the boy had to eat his feces, and got beat everyday ( and this is a better home than the one they were took from?) These days there are many many DCF workers selling children to perverts here in Florida just check out TheLedger.com there are cases like this almost every other week. This all just makes me sick!

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December 19, 2008

Christina Garcia

I meant spanking not speaking, sorry for the confusion on that.

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December 19, 2008

gompertz

Greg: “voucher system with self-defense tax credits.”

This is an excellent idea! Allowing everyone to participate, but on their own terms, making allowance for choice among the diverse options among the various styles and forms of martial arts to suit individual circumstances and preferences.

Floating the idea to some martial arts masters may be helpful, we will see.

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December 19, 2008

Electronica

amy no its not bm! shes the one with the camera and thats why you can hear her real loud like when she says theres only 17 secs left. no way the shes bm.

and amy she says open the door and let her run away. thats what she says! amy did you listen to the vid? i mean really did you listen to it.

phil you too. and im sorry if i insulted you i didnt mean to i was frustratrd. and btw i dont like you saying most ppl this and that idk if you mean me. like you said most ppl go easy on all the girls exept bh. did you mean me? i was like spanked by amy for going easy on bh with the kidnapping stuff so really did you mean me? idk.

and phil i mean utubeblogger just to let you know im really merc. so i know what went on you dont so im right and who are you. amy and gomp you too. but pls dont tell my mom its me shed spank me real hard. oh and dont tell the cops im here. more trouble.

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December 19, 2008

gompertz

Electronica, I will have to notify the police because you called Phil the Utubeblogger when he is only the Utubecommenter. And I know everything that happened because I can transform myself into a housefly any time I want. : )

I think when Phil said most people go easy on the girls he included me, because I want them to go to a special facility to learn martial arts and discipline and raise their consciousness through meditation.
Unfortunately that won’t happen because the authorities just want punishment without any rehabilitation. And I just know someone will “spank” me for that comment, but that’s okay.

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December 19, 2008

Phil

To Electronica
I really appreciate the apology.
No i meant most people . If I meant you ,I would have said you ,As you can tell I tend to say what i mean. You have stated many things based on your opinions i have commented back with equal enthusiam and what I think is thoughtfullnes .My replies to your comments i have felt have been always respectful . .I am not asking for you to respond any differently then you wish to do so . Calling me or my ideas stupid or saying I am cruel is your choice but I will probally not respond directly to you in return but make my comments about your views more generic. Again I truly am apprecitive for what you bring to the discussions we have here .
Merry Christmas

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December 19, 2008

Phil

Big p.s To Electronica
Really loved the return Humour I laughed so hard and Don.t Worry Electronica/Mercades /Utubedetective/ Now that i know who you really are ,your secret is safe with me you however you will no longer be allowed on the jury.
Signed Utubecommenter formerly known as Utubeblogger

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December 19, 2008

Phil

ToGomp
And i am worried tht they will try rehabilitation instead of punishment . Don’t forget the last reliable rumour was 6 months house arrest ,even BM
.

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December 20, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I don’t think house arrest is either rehabilitation or punishment. It would be an evasion of responsibility on the part of the courts, nothing more, nothing less. With house arrest nothing is accomplished. It just involves a little unpleasantness but doesn’t send any real message.

Something like boot camp would be an effective form of punishment and would involve discipline that would serve the purpose of rehabilitation at the same time. I believe a lot of the problems of many young people, including the Lakeland girls is that they are spoiled and much too comfortable. Some rigorous training would provide an antidote for this self-indulgent life style and lead to a better appreciation for the realities of life.

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December 20, 2008

Amv

Brittini Hardcastle is the same person who runs people off roads

right?

Isn&rsquot that when, you are riding in your car and the person waits

for you to turn a corner at the edge of a cliff, and then they ram their car into yours and try to push you off? Just like in the movies?

Am I supposed to believe someone who does stuff like that feels empathy and is sorry? She seems like a thug to me, maybe a

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

GregS-

Sorry I am having trouble with my computer. Find it hard to cut and past. My last blow was your comment.

I believe if you look further into the exboyfriends statement, you will find that it was Mercades driving the car that he claims tryed to run him off the road. Brittini Hardcastle was a passenger.

Also, I don’t know the girls name who Victoria went to for help, however she also stated these girls had tryed to run her off the road. I do not have the specifics on that. So I will not state facts I don’t have. Her mother on the 911 tape also said these girls were known as quite the bullies around town. Which girls, I am not sure?

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Gomperta –

I have been very busy and am trying to catch up for the comments. So many comments written and if I don’t stop (may be from a few days ago) before continuing to read on I will lose my thought and go off on to something else.

Yes, although I have not looked at any of the blogs on the Caylee Anthony case, their probably is more being blogged about this case. I believe their is a very good reason for that.

We here in Florida (Christinia I know you bust but I will include you) have seen this case on the media nonstop for the last five months. It has truely been heartbreaking.

The twists and turns have been something you could not have dreamed up in a crime novel. To comment on everything that comes up on a daily basis would surely take much more time than we spend here.

With all of this being said. I will go totally off of this topic and say this. God Bless and keep that little angel. For what she has gone through on earth, we truely can never make any sense of.
No matter how hard you try.

For what her grandparents and others that truely love this child are going through my heartbreaks. Although, they did not have the out come they wanted which was of course to bring this child home. I hope they can gather a strength, I do not believe I possess, to make it through truely one of the worst situations I can not even phathom.

So please allow me to say this. To Caylee’s family my heart felt sympathies for what you are going through not only during the Holidays but, through out the coming ordeals you face. God rest that poor babies soul.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

Always nice to read your comments. Sometimes, I do not responde because we think so much a like I am scared I will be accused of being you :).
Or you me.

The person blogging before comparing me to B.M. Once again thanks for coming to my defense. However, just from his other comments, I thought he was so off I didn’t pay much attention.

As could clearly see from some of my early blogs, I actually felt he may be a danger to Christinia (not just emotionally). I even commented on this and she did not answer so I am assuming she already know something we did not. Wise move.

See, Electronica people can get very angry and disagree heatedly, however still care about each others physical welfare 🙂 This is how you will truely know I do not have hate in my heart. Very strong word. For extremely strong emotiongs.

Of course (I will speak for you now) we are nothing like B.M. I will never understand enjoyment out of someone elses suffering. Way to sick for me. I am with you, not trying to hurt Christinia because truely she really could just turn off her to computer and go to her friends for support (christinia do not misunderstand).
She is tough and I believe she can withstand the questioning or even comments that she vehemently disagrees with.

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December 20, 2008

GregS

Amyv thats important to know that it was Mercades. A car is not something to play around with anymore than a gun is.

Amy it’s this kinda behavior that is going to destroy Mercades reputation. She clearly does not understand the consequences of her actions, either due to immaturity or malice.

This running people off the road stuff dishonors her family, she has to consider how her actions influence the lives of her mother, and younger sibling.

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December 20, 2008

Christina Garcia

Gregs and Amyv:

Like I said before I was cheated by Sheriff Judd, because there are many things I wanted to say and do with Mercades that I just can’t because of of whole picture now. Just know this, although I can’t comment in detail on some things, if I don’t comment on something it usually means I agree unless for some reason I missed it.

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December 20, 2008

Christina Garcia

BTW….and I would’ve thought Amy would’ve known this before me but No More Bootcamps allowed in Florida for previous abuse

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

“Also I don&rsquot think Florida is any worse than elsewhere. In a huge city like New York, there are so many enormous buildings and back alleys and underground passages that truly hideous acts can be done in relative secrecy. I guess Florida isn&rsquot that built up and these things are out in the open.”

Thanks for the vote of confidence for Florida. Our crime rate is minimal compared to some of the huge northern cities were crime is so rampant many things are not even reported.

What we seem two have going on down here is some out of the ordinary cases. Yes, unfortunately people get beaten, jumped, murdered, kidnapped, etc. everday. This case was unique because of it being at a friends home, taping, the length of time, etc. You already know the facts. It just rose to a whole new level of cruelty and people could actual see what happened because of the tape.

Then of course we have the Caley Anthonty case. Horrific murder of a small child. Once again, terrible thing that happens far to often. However, the circumstances surrounding it so bizarre makes the whole case very sensational.

I am not comparing the two by any means. Just stating its not the amount just the uniqueness of each case that makes them very news worthy and very disturbing.

I for one do not hate the south. I have lived in Florida all of my life and have found it a wonderful place to live. So to me making it a southern thing is insulting because it implies these people commited these crimes because of ignorance. The south had nothing to do with it. By the way I don’t have a rebel flag, don’t drive a Ford, also don’t say yee haw lol :} I do like Nascar and foot ball though 🙂 So if you do decide to move to Florida be assured many cities are wonderful. Although, many people who live here are not even from the south.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Christinia –

I don’t even think boot camp is an option for these girls. I just stated a setting like that would be more beneficial with no violence tolerated by anyone.

So really just a suggestion of what would be ideal for these girls. Instead of jail. Thanks for the information though.

We already know facilities are lacking in every area in this country. So where do we go from here? No good answer. They have to be punished for a crime. I think myself, you and Gompertz all have stated that this kind of setting would be the most appropriate. However, it is not available.

Sorry, I can’t remember who blogged about vouchers for martial arts. So wishful thinking. In this economy with this mess we are in you can’t even afford to give them a proper and safe education.

Although, I would be against vouchers for martial arts until with get alot of teenagers anger management programs first. To much acceptance from the younger generation that fighting and bullying is acceptable. It would be like giving a gun to a want to be bank robber. The bullying has to stop first.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Mike –

“I guess in my previous post, the point at the end was that if you were in the room and didn&rsquot take any action, even mild, the law has to presume you willingly participated. Truth be told, after the fact, people will think of all kinds of excuses for their behavior and all kinds of ways it wasn&rsquot so bad, and all kinds of minor things that, in their mind, relieve the guilt.

But, it is like the person who shoplifts, after you are caught, it is too late to just pay for it or give it back. That time is long past.

Certainly, OJ wishes he had just asked nicely at this point.”

Agree with all things said. Had to laugh at the O.J. reference. You know people are actually saying he was framed in this case as well? I can find nothing but humor in that. It is on tape.

Oh, by the way, we have already established it is the drinking water in Florida 🙂 lol. Think I will stick to my Coke even though everyone says the caffiene is bad for you 🙂 Nice to have you hear blogging.

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December 20, 2008

Scott

Amy, the Caylee Anthony saga was tragic and strange. Caylee’s mother spacey Casey was jealous that Caylee was the star of the family and not Casey who was a 2 bit criminal specializing in child neglect. Poor Caylee. She never had a chance with a mother like that and jealousy in the family that turned out to be fatal for Caylee.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Gomperz –

“That person came here admonishing us to be nice to Christina and seemed to lay down rules for what is permissible and then he violated his own rules. Seems he was the one with the agenda and not Christina but if you think she does, well, you are entitled to say what you want, and like I told Phil neither I no anyone else has the right to be the &ldquoblog nazi.&rdquo ”

I am not really sure what the statement your are trying to make here is. I did not respond to this blogger for a while. I even told Christinia to be careful. She did not respond which I can totally understand. I still do not know what that persons agenda was. Way to strange for me. Even flat out attacking Electronica (glad he got banned I was more than ready to jump on that one).

So are you asking if I thought the two of them had an agenda together? I don’t understand. Because if that is it no.

I have been sleeping better at night so I am not on here until 4:00 in the morning when I have to get up at 5:30. So I do miss the insomnia chats.

Christina –

My doctor also prescribed sleeping pills for me because of my troubles. I agree with you. I do not take them. However, I do keep them here just in case the mental problems develop into physical.

So although we both think we can deal with all situations without help, sometimes letting go a little helps. I was actually so exhausted the other night I feel asleep sitting up. I used to swear only men could do that lol 🙂 So pills not required. Although, for anyone here who may require them I am not saying they are a sign of weakness.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Hi Scott –

Yes, that is a terrible family situation. The poor little child suffered for it. A lot of strange family dynamics in that one don’t you think?

I don’t know if you live in Florida. Understand if you don’t want to answer. We have that case on the news 24/7. Just wandering how much is shown else where. I know it is still quite a bit.

I hate to go to this topic however, the grandmother and the brother have done some extremely strange things as well don’t you think?
I do not think they in any way had anything to do with it. I know they are suffering. However, a lot of strange issues their. However, once again they are truely victims as well. So my sympathy goes out to them whole heartedly

As for Casey Anthony. I can’t even go there. As a mother I can not even imagine what kind of psycho that girl is. Talk about wanting to go and choke someone. Sitting their the whole time and not helping the police at all then claiming she loved her child. Out of her ever loving mind. That is all I can say.

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December 20, 2008

gompertz

Amy, so good to hear from you again. Now please tell me I read correctly: you are up until 4 am and you get up at 530 am???????
This is not good, not good at all. I have a different schedule where I can be up all night and get plenty of sleep and then go to evening classes and celebrations and have time to blog. So from now on I probably shouldn’t respond to your comments if you make them at a time when you should be sleeping, okay? There is nothing more important than rest. : )

As for the person who posted here, you are right to think there is more to that than it is healthy to speak of. At any rate, there were some interesting exchanges on Topix the last two days that might indicate to you what kind of issues were involved. It is hard to find the balance between saying too much and saying too little but I am certain that things are under control.

You already know my views about punishment and my thoughts about martial arts must be tiresome to hear for some. But important nevertheless.

The idea of vouchers and tax credits for martial arts came from Greg as he responded to my concern about making martial arts training available to people who can’t afford it. There are many parents who would send their kids but through no fault of their own just don’t have the financial means. I know of many cases like that. What a tragedy if some child were injured by a bully just because the child’s parents didn’t have the money to pay for lessons. I like the idea of vouchers and tax credits and it may be combined with the idea of universal martial arts training as part of a universal health care plan. People who practice martial arts will enjoy better health and thus save on doctor’s visits and hospitalization. Martial arts training leads to self-discipline and could lead people to value better eating habits and cut down on obesity. And so on..

As for Florida, I think it likely I’ll be moving there but when I can’t be specific. And the Casey Anthony thing, well, I always thought it would wind up like this and nothing I can say. Still we must keep in mind that this sort of thing happens all over and the media focus on one tragedy to the exclusion of others. There is nothing we can do for the poor baby now and the matter is now in the hands of the authorities for better or worse. Still let us not forget the countless children who are exploited and murdered all the time all over the world.

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December 20, 2008

Scott

Amy, I live on the Treasure Coast of Florida. I moved down here from New York in 2007. I like most people in Florida have followed the caylee Anthony tragedy closely. It’s just an awful story and all those damn lies don’t help either.

And yes Caylee’s grandparent’s and Uncle Lee have acted very strangely. It’s like they were all along more interested in protection of themselves and Casey than they were on finding Caylee. That poor child never had a chance with those nuts controlling her. Can you imagine not reporting your child missing for a month? It’s mindboggling. But that’s what Casey did. And where were George and Cindy after Caylee was missing for a couple weeks asking Casey where is Caylee and we want to speak with her? George and Cindy were more like parents than grandparents to Caylee and them goinjg an entire month without seeing or talking to their granddaughter in not believable.

Amy, I take a Walgreen’s version of Sominex and that helps me sleep a little bit better.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Phil –
“They have to be punished for what they did colectively as well as what they
did individually . They are more guilty than the sum of thier indivual actions .”

Very well thought out comment. Right to the point. I agree with you 100%

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December 20, 2008

Christina Garcia

Phil:
They should not all be punished the same sorry. But thank you for her comments as always.

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December 20, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

Please keep responding to me when I blog in the middle of the night. I will have withdraws if you don’t:) Thank you all for your concerns about my insomnia and how it could affect my health. However, my bodies natural responses have kicked in and I have gotten plenty of rest. I have learned that instead of fighting it right when I start feeling tired to go to bed. No more can’t sleep now to many things to do.

Scott – Thanks for the suggestion. I will keep it in minded if needed. I am glad to see another Floridian on here. Maybe to give some perspective this is not such a bad place to live. Although, I can understand concerns after watching all of these cases lately.

I know we will probably be reminded this is not about the Caylee Anthony case but just a few things off of our chests should be Ok. I think. The grandfather showed much more cooporation than the grandmother and her son. Even the bounty hunter stated this family kept George out of the loop. His interview with the police was absolutely heart wrenching. Being an ex police office he could not ignore the mounting evidence. Being a father he stated he didn’t want to think he had a monster for a daughter. Being a loving grandfather he did not want to accept that baby was gone.

As for the grandmother I think she tryed her best to get her daughter to bring that baby home. Remember she did finally go get Casey from her boyfriends. Of course, knowing what we do know we can say she didn’t do enough. However, don’t think she could have imagined what had already been done. Of course her behavior later on was certainly not in the best interest of finding Caylee whatever the out come.
Of course she would defend her daughter she is a mother. However, a little to much covering for the daughter is beyond defending.

As for the brother I will take a wait and see attitude on that one. As more comes out perhaps we can make a few more comments at that time. Do not think brother had anything to do with this childs death afterwards don’t know about his actions.

O.K. I will leave that one alone unless at sometime Scott you and I would like to jump to another blog about that subject and we can talk further about certain issues. Also, hit the nail right on the head more like parents than grandparents. She had someone to hand that child over to.

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December 20, 2008

Scott

Amy, you are right about Geoge Anthony giving a heart wrenching interview to the police. And he has been controled by his wife here. Cindy is a control freak and she even got George to change his story of the car smelling like it had dead human remains in it to being the smell of pizza. LMAO that pizza excuse is so lame and no one bought it. Leftover pizza doesn’t even smell it just gets hard and stale.

Phil, the girls that asaulted and imprisoned Tori are all guilty but to varying degrees. I don’t think Hassall, Mayes or Nichols should face the same charges and amount of jail time as Hardcastle and Cooper who were much more violent with Tori than the other girls.

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December 20, 2008

Scott

Christina, did you see Tori’s interview in Inside Edition? The hostess Deborah Norville reported that Tori doesn’t want the girls arrested for her assault and imprisonment to do jail time. Do you know this and are the defendants attorney’s using that to help their clients avoid jail? I don’t want you to let the cat out of the bag so to speak but I would be interested in your views on this.

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December 20, 2008

GregS

I would be against vouchers for martial arts until with get alot of teenagers anger management programs first.

So we shouldn’t allow children to go to school because they might learn chemistry and make an IED? It’s the same reasoning.

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December 20, 2008

gompertz

Greg, maybe the best anger management program is the martial arts lesson itself. I don’t know much about our current system of anger management but it doesn’t seem to work too well.

In martial arts young people learn discipline and respect for the instructor. They are given a sense of purpose and anger is redirected into meaningful activity. Breathing exercises help to focus the mind and the result is a calming of the passion and the development of quiet but effective power. The less esoteric aspects of the teaching, such as Confucian ethics, also contribute to an atmosphere of peace and harmony.

Of course there is a certain number who cannot be taught, and in many cases they become more violent. Under the current system they are simply ejected and are then free to act out their violent tendencies at the expense of society. It may be better if, rather than just cutting them loose, these people were placed in special programs where they could be studied scientifically and then integrated into society in a humane way.

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December 21, 2008

Phil

To Scot
We have not exchanged alot of views so I’m glad to have you respond.

To answer yours and Christin’a question . Of course not .There is no legal or moral reasoning that can put Mercades or kayla in the same light as BM
BritM descided the level of brutality inflicted and therefore should receive the stiffest sentence . My point had nothing to do with any sentence .So lets assume that the plea agrrement has already been reached . ,.
.Its pretty much established that Victoria Did not have A problem with BH . On the tape you hear Victoria pleading this very thing(not saying ‘pleading.I say this because you can never forget the mood of the rm when these things were being said.)If BH was not punishing Victoiria for wrong doing against herself then for Who’s wrong doings was Victoria being punished . . Brit H beat Victoria for the alleged wrong doings against the other girls in the Rm.And these girls allowed BH to do this
One thing was very clear to me pre planned or not . This was a trial . Victoria was detained and held accoutable for her actions .They had acuusers and accusatins .They were the judge and jury and they found her guilty “You Brought this on yourself Honey”. Brit H beat Victoria for the alleged wrong doings
against the other girls in the Rm. And Everyone of them let her do this in there name . For those who want proof It is on the tape . BM Ask Victoria why she dosen’t like this person or that person ,after every wrong resonse she is hit for not liking that person.After one of Victoria’ Responses one of the jury yells wrong answer , another hit follows .BH carried out the will of the girls in the rm . That includes Cara Murphy and she should be there to answer for her actions and words
Whatever the punishment given they should be held accountable for this because at the very heart of it this is what happened .What ever the sentence this is what they dersreve to be punished for .With all due respect Christina not just for being a bad friend.
This is what i meant when i said ”
They have to be punished for what they did colectively as well as what they
did individually . They are more guilty than the sum of thier indivual actions .&rdquo

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December 21, 2008

Phil

sorry Scott
not any good at that short thing you do.

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December 21, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I’m not good at “that short thing” either.

Thanks for the clarification abut the collective punishment statement. When you originally made the statement it brought to mind Elie Weisel saying that he doesn’t believe in collective guilt. I think that most of us would agree where this applies to nations at war even if as usually happens there are atrocities committed. So, for instance, Americans who supported the Vietnam War are not guilty of the My Lai massacre. So, also, in this case we would want to look at individual responsibility for individual actions.

Still we need to look at the video in the way you do, and realize that there was a kind of group psychology at work. That increased the intensity of the assault and made it much worse for the victim, not only in terms of the numbers but the degree of collaboration leading to greater enthusiasm to inflict pain on the victim. That much is clear.

However, at this point we have to pause and ask: Let’s say we were sitting in judgment here. What would we the jury do about this notion of group action and how does it combine with the notion of individual responsibility if the individual contribution to the beating is inseparable from the actions of the group as a whole? What criteria would a jury have available to sort these things out? The jury’s choices would be limited to a short list of options and then legal scholars and moral philosophers can debate the larger issues, and whatever the outcome there will be a lot of room for disagreement as to the fairness of the sentences. (You see, I don’t do the “short thing” well)

But I come back to my examples of nations at war not to evaluate collective guilt or innocence in a legal sense, but to look at one aspect of the problem of this case that has disturbed so many of us beyond the beating itself, and that is the problem of the lack of remorse shown by the accused. What I have found is that for instance Germans who lived through the War can appear very lacking in feelings of guilt, and while these are people who I know never committed atrocities, I would expect them to feel some kind of responsibility and that is something I have found only in rare instances. The same lack of remorse I find in Americans who don’t feel any sympathy for the Vietnamese and Iraqi civilians who are victims of the bombing we do. And of course one can take refuge in political excuses and say “that’s war.” But I find it remarkable that apparently decent people can be so remorseless when it involves the actions of their group or nation. Look at Stanley Milgram’s experiments, the results of which have been duplicated many times by psychology researchers. Milgram found that most people will obey the orders of a person in authority even if those orders would cause pain and injury and possibly death to an experimental subject. So you can look at Milgram’s work as making a connection between the group response of nations at war and the group response of the Lakeland group. I know analogies like that are not perfect, but for me at least it helps in uderstanding the state of mind of these young people who show no pity or remorse. I think it goes back to the kind of influences these people are subjected to in their own youth subculture. I remember how impressed I was with Amy’s description of the attitudes of the teenagers she knows who value honor and respect more than money. The attitude of not backing down from a fight is common today and the youths are becoming more violent. I see this as a result of the rejection of traditional values and when I look at what the “system” has to offer I find it reasonable that young people reject it. Today the kids of middle and upper class parents are becoming as llikely to join violent gangs as inner city kids. In one case it is a sense of hopelessness that comes from being excluded from the American Dream, in the other case it is the hopelessness of having lived the American Dream and found it a big disappointment. The hopelessness is just as real if it is felt by middle class kids from good homes or by kids from poor neighborhoods. I think it is the hopelessness and not the poverty that is the decisive factor here.

So how does that tie in with the lack of remorse of these Lakeland girls? I think it ties in with the values of the youth culture I just alluded to. As you said, “This was a trial…they were judge and jury and they found her guilty.” That is a perfect description of a youth culture that rejects the authority of the traditional culture and sets up its own standards. This group of girls was acting as representatives of that culture and felt they had no recourse to the prevailing standards. So if they had a problem with Victoria they would not go to teachers or police or whatever remedy we more traditional people would feel was appropriate, and would have to take matters into their own hands. So I think they felt it right to set up their own little courtroom and mete out punishment, in fact they probably considered it their duty.

Well, what I have just presented is not an airtight argument or an excuse or condemnation, but just some thoughts about ways to look at this situation, perhaps helping us to see it through the eyes of the perpetrators. I look at BH administering her own “justice” and she reminds me of my fifth grade nun who used to beat me silly. Do you think that nun ever felt remorse for her violent acts? Of course not. Why should she? To her way of thinking she was doing a great and noble thing by knocking sense into my head. And she had the sanction of society to so it. The same with those girls, even though they don’t represent the established order, they represent a new order that is growing and living by its own rules, but those rules are not so different from the old rules. That is why they have their own judges and juries. We can think what we want about this youth culture but those who are part of it have to be judged not only by our rules but by theirs. What we interpret as lack of remorse may be in fact the measure of their identification with their own youth culture.

Please, everyone, I am not excusing anything. I just like to, sometimes, look at this thing from different points of view and see if it leads to greater understanding of the circumstances. And hopefully the real judge and jury will have the final word.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Scott

Phil, can you imagine what Hardcatle would have done to Tori if they were having real problems? But at one point Brittni asked Tori what has happened to us in the last year?

You also make an interesting point about how the girls basically put Tori on trial with Hardcastle performing the will of the girls in the room. Yes they are all guilty and it’s not right that Murphy got off. But the prosecution needs her to testify against the other girls and that’s why charges were dropped against her.

Gomp, I wish there was a better understanding of why the girls did what they but. But maybe it’s as simple as it’s just a part of the youth culture that exists today. And if that’s the case it’s really sad.

Reply
December 21, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I do think it has a lot to do with the youth culture but I don’t think it’s simple. First of all the explanations for the assault in terms of personal differences would enter into any judgment of degrees of guilt and I don’t think there will be much sympathy for a “blame it on society” excuse.

What I am saying is that in evaluating the lack of remorse displayed here we might look at cultural factors, and if we look at those factors we might see that the perpetrators are not necessarily as incorrigible as it they seem.

Still, evaluating how much cultural factors contribute to personal behavior is tricky. All i am saying here is we shouldn’t give up hope for even the most violent people until we learn more about what makes the act that way. Anyway we know that there are some really evil people who can’t be rehabilitated and I think Casey Anthony is one. It’s those cold calculating ones I fear more than the ones who are angry.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Phil

To Gomp . It is hard for me to take this case and look at it in the more worldly view that you have . I tend to be more direct in my causes and effects arguments .
Lets just look at another exaample in relation to the charges. Forceable Confinement.
There is no doubt that BH,Is the one that locked the door ./Victoria really must of known at this point she was in serious trouble. Even though BH did the locking all the rest of the girls in the rm took advantage of the crime . They had her trapped now they can dispense thier justice at thier liesure . Again thy all had thier part in either hitting or the humilitaing or encouraging those that did .there was so much shared invovement in this assult .It is only to the defenses advantage to take it down to the individual actions Everybodys interest except BtitH and the little thing called justice .

Reply
December 21, 2008

Phil

To Gomp . It is hard for me to take this case and look at it in the more worldly view that you have . I tend to be more direct in my causes and effects arguments .
Lets just look at another example in relation to the charges. Forceable Confinement.
There is no doubt that BH,Is the one that locked the door ./Victoria really must of known at this point she was in serious trouble. Even though BH did the locking all the rest of the girls in the rm took advantage of that crime . They had her trapped now she was going nowhere until they (not just Bh) were finished with her .they can now dispense thier justice at thier liesure . Again they all had thier part in either hitting or the humilitaing or encouraging those that did .there was so much shared invovement in this assult .It is only to the defenses advantage to take it down to the individual actions Everybodys interest except BtitH and the little thing called justice .

Reply
December 21, 2008

Phil

I idnt think the first message got sent please ignore first one
sorry

Reply
December 21, 2008

gompertz

Worldly? Moi? Well I guess it’s better than some of the unprintable things I’ve been called.

As usual, I think there is no disagreement between your view and mine. It’s just that you are playing the role of a prosecuting attorney, and doing a good job at it, while I don’t want to be any kind of attorney. I would rather be the psychologist or therapist who comes in afterwards and tries to evaluate the possibility of rehabilitation. So, I would be interested in the result of a brain scan to see if there is some defect there. If not, I would proceed to determine the effects of the culture on the subject’s behavior. Right now we don’t know so I just try to look at different possibilities

Now, that word “worldly.” I remember a guy who called me a commie-pinko-radical-intellectual f*** but since he was buying the beer, I thought it was okay. LOL

Reply
December 21, 2008

gompertz

Oh and the duplicate messages are okay, I always read them twice anyway.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Electronica

amy i agree you dont hate merc anymore i think i said so before. not sure about phil.

but amy and phil you any answered did you listen to the vid? i mean really listen. the girls says open the door let her run away let her run away let her run away. thats what she said. you just ignore that it doesnt fit what you wanne think.

its just not true they lured her not true they planned all this not true they all agreed with it. just isnt the truth.

and i agree they did wrong and should get punished and all of them too even those that didnt do anything they its ok to punish them for not doing anything. but it must be fair and it must be true not based on lies. ppl always say stuff that isnt true and when i say it isnt true i get acused i like them.

and phil like i said i agree they should get punished for more than they did they should get punished for what they didnt do. but you said they should get punished for what they did on their own too so how come you now say its wrong to say who did what. that doesnt make sense if you care about being fair.

and phil how do you know what cara was thinking or what she knew you dont know anything maybe she didnt know much at all she was just there. lots of ppl i know wouldnt do anything if they were there they wouldnt think its their byssness. just cause she was there doesnt mean she agreed with it.

and phil you dont know britti locked the doot i didnt see her do it i just saw her close the door and later block the door. so whats it with the locked door i dont follow at all. and even if she locked it no one would notice she did. its really like gomp said your the persecutor and think of everything bad you can say and dont care if it makes sense if its true. thats why its so frusrtating.

and if its true they all get punished the same its real stupid. it should be half and half. half for what you did on your own and half for what you didnt stop the others from doing. but dont punish them for stuff that isnt true!

Reply
December 21, 2008

Electronica

oh and phil i didnt say your stupid. i think i said your not stupid and thats why im frustrated.

my dad says that was stupid when i did something stupid and said something stupid but he doesnt say im stupid. he says if i was stupid it wouldnt help to tell me what i did was stupid. it helps only because im not stupid and so it means i was lazy and didnt think enough. stupid ppl can think long time and still say something stupid so its not really their fault they cant help it.

i say i did something real stupid all the time and i say to my friends what you did was reall stupid all the time too. so i dont mean to insult but i forget its not the same on blogs ppl get insulted so im sorry.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Electronica

and amy i remember now it was in florida they beat the boy in boot camp and he died. they were hitting him and kicking him for a real long time and you could see he was real sick he didnt look good at all i saw the vid long time ago. and they said they didnt do anything wrong! didnt go to jail at all. so its normal down there if kids get beat up when their punished its just not ok if its kids doing it.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Amyv

Gomp –

“So, I would be interested in the result of a brain scan to see if there is some defect there. If not, I would proceed to determine the effects of the culture on the subject&rsquos behavior.”

It would solve a lot of problems if a brain scan could measure why these girls behaved like they did. However, since I am pretty postive that none of them have brain damage, nothing would show up.

However, since differencces are seen in a person who is for example a sociopath in those kind of cases it can be quite educational. It would be extremely interesting to study a brain scan on Charles Manson. Imagine the information you could gleam for that.

The kind of machine I would think would be most beneficial with these girls is an extremely high tech. lie detector test. Imagine if you could combine the two test at once. Perhaps something scientists and doctors could work on in the future.

As for yours and Gregs comments on anger management programs some do work very well.
The problem is not with the programs it is with the lack of using them.

I never down play your suggestions of martial arts as a valuable tool. However, I am cynical about what type of criminals would benefit from this type of rehabiliation. Since, it has already been stated on here people can easily fool highly qualified and educated therapist. I fear the same
could be said for a martial arts instructor.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Phil

Electronica
I cannot help the fact that you do not think it was planned .I have given you my reasons and you disagree . I think many more people would agree that this was planned . So far Scott AmyV , Gomp have also said that in some way or another there was some sort of plan. and So when you say
“its just not true they lured her not true they planned all this not true they all agreed with it. just isnt the truth.”
you are the one ignoring loads of evidence because it does not fit in with your views ,
Who ever said “open the door and let her run away should have opened the door and let her run away” but they did not .Just empty words . You seem to give more credit to one nice thing said when there was no action to back it up and dismiss out of hand all the truley mean stuff ..You always say that you think they should be punished but always side on the least ammount of punishishment possible.Then you say that you are not sure if i hate Mercades the same thing you have accused AmyV of because she made alot of the same points i have . , I will not spend any more time trying to convince you of my Character . And where in any statment that i made did i say i knew what Cara was thinking .and then to say i said its wrong to say who did what.Not only do i not know what tapes you have been watching but i do not know whos ‘s comments you have been reading

Reply
December 21, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –

“and phil how do you know what cara was thinking or what she knew you dont know anything maybe she didnt know much at all she was just there. lots of ppl i know wouldnt do anything if they were there they wouldnt think its their byssness. just cause she was there doesnt mean she agreed with it.”

El – This is truely a sad statement and I really have a hard time replying to it. If you are present during a crime such as this it is your business. Living out the simple fact that it was horrendous, it would be your business.

I am not directing this specifically at you. However, if you hang around people that think this would be none of their business I would suggest getting some new friends.

Cara Murphy could still be and probably will be taken to civil court. Not to mention if she
testifies against some of these girls and the sentence is light, How can she be sure she will not be a target for one of them over this?
Also, Victoria has a restraining order out against all of these girls. As well she should have.

So although Cara’s criminal charges were dropped the restraining order will effect her ability to get a job. The civil case will cost her and her family a lot of money. Her reputation outside of Polk County is ruined.

So, sitting back and saying this is none of my business will get you in trouble. She was their and she was taping. She was involved. She looks like a total coward in the eyes of a lot of the public. Not like someone who just sat their because it wasn’t her business. So, I would think other teenagers would think she was a coward.

I won’t even go into the total lack of feeling involved. No, I don’t know what Cara Murphy was thinking. I could never even pretend to know what she was thinking. She is not totally off the hook. Not by a long shot.

Sorry, Electronica if I sound like I am being harsh. However, you stated I don’t hate these girls and I don’t. So I say this not out of hatred but out of a total lack of disbelief for the lack of compassion. I absolutely hate their actions.

Reply
December 21, 2008

gompertz

Amy, you bring up some very interesting questions.

“I am cynical about what type of criminals would benefit from this type of rehabilitation.”

When Tai Chi instruction is offered to violent criminals in prison, it seems to have positive effects in some cases. Still, everyone is unique and what works on some will not work on others. It would be interesting to know whether there is a correlation between success in using Tai Chi as therapy and the results of brain scans. I suspect there would be.

Where martial arts would be most useful would be in teaching children, and the goal would be to make it universal. I think that children already have access to all sorts of physical activity in the schools, with phys ed, athletics, gym, being part of the curriculum. So adding martial arts shouldn’t be a major problem. Making the training universal would have either of two opposite effects. For most, including some with bullying tendencies, the training would have positive effects. For the incorrigible bullies, the training would help to bring out their aggressive and antisocial tendencies more prominently and the teachers could identify them and their problems treated accordingly. As for the few psychopaths who are able to conceal their evil nature from the teacher, and I know there are some, they would be outnumbered by the other students. As for the occasional psychopath reaching the higher levels of attainment that would be impossible under normal conditions. The refinement of the psychic energy that leads beyond the merely physical level is impossible for those who cheat and lie and deceive. For the truly evil individual who wants to attain the highest levels the only way open is through the cultivation of occult powers, and that means invoking demonic forces. Scary stuff, yes, but we cannot shrink from the cultivation of the good powers because some will misuse them.

So yes there is a real danger but the way things are going the forces of evil are winning without any opposition from the good people. Just look at baby Caylee and Giovanni Gonzalez and see what is going on. If good people do nothing, evil wins.

As for lie detectors and brain scans, I do not know if people, even convicted criminals, can be forced to undergo such tests. I just don’t know the laws well enough but I would think the ACLU would raise a storm of protests.

One thing about anger management, I agree that one reason it doesn’t work is that it isn’t applied. But maybe it isn’t applied because there is a lack of qualified personnel with the necessary technical skill. The same may be true, sad to say, for the idea of universal martial arts instruction. So the first thing we need to do is show young people that there is a lot of misery and pain in the world and that the greatest joy comes from working to alleviate that pain by acquiring the skills that enable you to make a difference.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Scott

Amy, I never heard about Tori having a restraining order again the girls. How did you find out?

Reply
December 21, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

I tryed to watch the tape so I could further my comments on who said what and who did what.
I made it through the first part. The April Cooper beat down of Victoria. That is all I could stomach.

I agree with you of course. Their is no way you could every convince me this was not a planned attack. Really just absolute common sense could not let me believe that.

They all acted as a group. Brittini Hardcastle did carry out the agenda for the other girls with great delight and methodical punishing. April Cooper, despite her young age, actively participated. Sorry, I do not see this girl holding back any punches. Sure, she was ready to let Victoria go. She got her beating in and yes she had a big jealously problem with Victoria over a boy. A little about my space. A whole lot more over a boy.

Victoria was trapped no doubt. Locking that door was deliberate and she had no escape. Mercades was not an unwilling participant. She was not in the living room sitting on the couch after Victoria was beaten in the bedroom. She watched what happened. Her stating “Did I not tell you to go” was by no means a sign of help for Victoria. She watched from the couch. Jumped over when she knew Brittini H. was going to start wailing. No fear on her face. More like wanting to get out of the way in case she accidentally got to close. Surely, did not want an accidental punch or something falling landing on her.

They were all their for the purpose of beating, humiliating, torturing and taping this girl for some kind of sick thrill. To watch the tape later for enjoyment, wow that speaks for itself. So, we can all disagree as we have in the past. However,
if this case every went before a jury their excuses would not fly. Their excuses would not matter since they commited the act.

I do believe this case will be plea bargained. These girls , lawyer and parents would be fools to let a jury watch that tape and try to make themselves look innocent. It just in no way adds up that this is not premeditated. They can certainly try though. However, as we have both stated before lights, camera and action leads to premeditation.

None of these girls were scared. They all planned it together. They executed their plan. Now they will have to face their punishmnt. I myself would much rather see this case go before a jury. However, I don’t think they would be half as easy as we are on these girls here. Very unwise decision if they don’t plea out.

Electronica – Sorry I have run out of options for punishment I think would fit their crimes. You find death possibilies with everyone of them. Including house arrest which you say would make someone want to commit suicide.

It really does not matter what are opinions are here. Whether or not we think one girl was guiltier than the others. This will all come out in court. Their will be a cleaned up version of the tape to see at least for a judge. Then it their will no room for disagreeing who said or did what. It will be much easier to determine for them.

Also, some of these girls are turning on the others. Once again cowards. Christinia said her daughter was a coward herself. If we agree on nothing else I believe you would have to admit this. Their actions will have consequences, therefore, sitting back and doing nothing will also be punished.

Once again do not mean to be harsh to you. Just stating what society should not and probably will not accept out of any of these girls.

Once lesson learned I think Electronica you will agree on. Victoria does not come off as a coward at all. Would that not be the purpose of something like this? This tape made her look strong in public opinion that she made it through this. The girls got the opposite effect. Labeled as cowards and to scared to handle problems one on one.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Amyv

Scott – I am having trouble pulling up old information. I don’t know if some of it was deleted after a certain period of time. I just can’t find a lot of articles anymore.

Sorry, I know for certain I read it. I just can’t give you a direct link. However, even with out it I would think that would be one of the first steps taken in this case.

Reply
December 21, 2008

Phil

To AmyV
You said in an earlier post that you would defend me but you didn’t think it would be nessecary. Really apreciate the support from you in your blog tonight ..It meant alot
Gomp
“It&rsquos just that you are playing the role of a prosecuting attorney, and doing a good job at it”,while I don&rsquot want to be any kind of attorney.

Great read and pointing out our different approach I was just pleased that you said i was doing a good job.

Reply
December 22, 2008

gompertz

Phil:

I read the discussion with you and Amy and acting as prosecutors and Electronica for the defense. You are all doing a great job. Sad to say, this simulated trial may be the closest we will get to seeing what a real trial would be like, since it’s likely the plea deals will be accepted (unless they are crazy enough to refuse).

Sometimes I read some of the old post from months ago on this blog and topix(with more than 6000 entries so far) and it is disheartening how much has been written and speculated with no conclusion.

My own feeling is that for Victoria and the rest of them there will be no conclusion whatever the courts do. Wounds this deep can’t be healed by a court decision.

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

As a rule utilitarian, when deciding on the best course of action, all options must be considered and the merit judged by the results.

Tai Chi does not always work, but studies have proven that it does work in some cases. Just as alternative medicine works in some cases. We have to accept that the western solutions wont work for all minds or on all brains. The western solution is usually to cover the problem up with drugs and call it treatment.

If somebody is angry, drugs is not the solution. Drugs will turn an angry person into a numb person, and later on those same doctors who gave the individual drugs for being angry will be offering drugs to fix the fact that they’ve been made numb. The solution is to not worry so much about how a person feels, we should leave that up to the individual to control how they want to feel, if they want to buy feel good drugs they should be sold over the counter to anyone who has the money in my opinion.

We should focus on behavior, and how to alter human behavior in the most humanely efficient fashion. We need to decide whether the behavior in the video should be off limits, or if it’s within the limit/range of acceptable “human” behavior. If the behavior in the video is not human behavior, then it’s animal behavior and must be treated as such.

It’s a bit cold of me to make my point in “real” words, but I feel like these words have to be said by somebody because so few people are utilitarian or consequence focused, or focused on behavior. So many people focus on intent, or what is in peoples hearts, but to me this is like trying to focus on what is in the heart of an animal you want to train, yes all animals have emotions, but when we train animals other than human somehow we manage to rationally do that, but when humans are involved we get so wrapped up in what the human might be feeling and next thing we know we try to act like the human thinks and feels just as we do, and then we get so emotionally attached that we cannot do our jobs.

We need to define and decide whether or not bullying of this sort is acceptable behavior from a biological perspective rather than a social perspective. Is it acceptable to violate the human rights of another by adopting behavior which initiates violence against them?

What I don’t understand is, if I were to go to a dog and punch and kick it for no reason, everyone would be pissed off, suddenly thats inhumane, but if I go and kick and punch a human for no reason, then people want to try and figure out my intentions or what is in my heart, not looking at the fact that the behavior matches and is the same no matter what species it applies to. So either the behavior is always bad, or it’s acceptable to be violent towards anyone and any species we want for any reason we come up with, or perhaps we can come up with the reasons after the fact?

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

Reward is the best way to alter human behavior that is known. I can understand Electronica’s arguments against punishment. Punishment should not be the first option we put on the table.

It’s simple, you adopt the behavior we want, and we will allow you to be happy. We will allow you to be happy by giving you that which makes you happy.

If you should decide to not change your behavior, then we will collectively make your life miserable by removing everything from your life which makes you happy. Eventually you will become so bored and miserable that you’ll do what we want just so you can smile again.

It’s that simple. No need to punish at all, you just identify the object or thing which makes someone happy and you take it away from them until they change. At the same time, we as a society have to actually create more paths to happiness.

Right now we govern ourselves as if our government is the ultimate sadist, and our subjects the ultimate masochists. We basically make everyone including ourselves collectively miserable and this generates the anger, then we offer anger management and drugs to numb the anger. Of course drugs are also illegal so people can be punished for finding happiness in drugs when not authorized.

We have the formula, we can expect most people to do whatever makes them most happy. We need to offer youth as many paths to happiness as possible, because if we don’t, they’ll be angry and we will be forced to punish them for a society they didn’t generate or desire in the first place.

The focus should be on maximizing happiness and security for all. Currently our society minimizes happiness and we aren’t any safer for it. Most people work doing a job they hate because they need money, we tell people they can be happy as long as they can afford it, then we act surprised when people kill one another to get money, or sell and buy drugs trying to beat the system.

A difference between previous generations and the current youth is that the current youth are a lot less happy than previous generations were, life is much more complicated, they are less safe, they have more work to do and less rewards, and the punishments are more severe than ever. Teenagers are getting punished now for downloading mp3s from the internet, when previous generations could listen to the radio for free.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Scott

Amy, it might be possible that the judge put restraining orders into effect back in April. That would make sense.

Gomp, sadly you might be right that the closest thing we get to a trial is here between Amy and Phil acting as the prosecution and Electronica acting as the defense. It’s crazy that this case hasn’t moved along at all in 9 months. And I blame the defense lawyers and their stall tactics for that.

Reply
December 22, 2008

gompertz

Scott, I think you are right about the restraining orders, I don’t think anything else was put in place after the original order back in April, or else somebody on Topix would have mentioned it.

As for the case, whether there is a trial or not nothing will be resolved, nothing will be completed whatever sentences are decided on. What will happen later on we don’t know, but I think it will be interesting to find out. As for who is to blame for the delays I think BOTH the defense team AND the prosecution are guilty of having their own agendas and causing more suffering and misery for the victim. What good did it do to release the video in the first place? It gained publicity for the sheriff and brought added misery for the victim, and there is no evidence that Victoria and her family were consulted, as they should have been.

Also it is sad that the family is in financial difficulties. With all the public interest in this case, one would think that someone with the financial means would offer to help. Here we have sleazy bankers and incompetent corporate managers receiving billions and billions in bailouts while good people get nothing.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Electronica

amy when i said most ppl wouldnt do anything if they were there i meant girls who dont fight. its just the girls youd like they say its stupid to fight and they dont wanne get involved in any drama with girls who talk about fighting and stuff. and if its not their friend getting beat up they think why risk trouble?

amy its girls like me who fight that do something not girls who dont fight. well im not saying its always like that but im saying its more girls like me than girls like cara i mean she said she never ever gets into fights so there you go thats typical.

and amy dont you know im saying it was wrong that cara didnt stop them i always said so. all im saying is just because you dont stop it doesnt mean you agree with it.

and amy i didnt say every punishment is bad that just isnt true and it isnt fair when you say that about me. and i never said home arrest is gonne make them kill themselves!!!

i said 3 months juvie prison for april and i said boot camps ok too. dont you read what i write? ? i said it nov 30 look it up im not lying. and i said i dont mind boot camps again dec 4 and dec 6 and dec 10. so how many times i have to say it? this isnt fair you have to read what i write if you wanne judge me.

phil you too. it just isnt true i want only little punishment! its unfair to say that about me. like 3 month juvie prison and 3 months boot camp and 6 months home arrest is more than just 5 months home arrest!!! i dont agree with that.

and phil you said they all agreed with tori getting beat up so of course that means you said you know what cara was thinking you couldnt say she agreed with it if you didnt. so i was fair.

and scott im not defending them i dont like what they did im just judging them and i go by what i know for sure is true.

Reply
December 22, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I do agree that we can only change things by focusing on behavior and not intent. What I try to do is see a person’s intent in terms of their behavior. Intent, or “what is in their hearts” should not be judged apart from how the intent is manifested in action.

I might as well confess that my biggest pet peeve is people who always say “but I meant well” every time their attempt at well-meaning stupid meddling leads to disaster, yet they keep trying and messing up. These people I would call Kantian moralists even though they never heard of Kant. It is the idea that goodness is some kind of unconditioned metaphysical thing that is judged “in itself.” The idea that virtue is its own reward. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous and it is responsible for producing Hitler and Pol Pot. Holocausts are made by people who meant well.

I emphasize this point because I think we can find a way to reconcile intent with behavior in a way that allows for emotion as long as it is regulated by reason. Since I am a person who values emotion as well as reason it is up to me to be clear about how I judge the relation between emotion and reason in particular cases.

Take for instance the image of Brittany Mayes shedding tears at the arraignment. Some people, myself included, asked whether the tears were genuine. It was pointed out that it is easy to fake remorse when it would be to your advantage to do so. I would reply that we do not know one way or other at this point whether the tears were real, we would have to wait and see. Either way, we are judging “what is in her heart” based on experience of what happens in practice. As for Ms. Mayes, she has become rather invisible of late, and under the present circumstances that is understandable. So how would we know whether she really feels remorse? We might say that it does not matter what she feels but only what her subsequent behavior is. And that is what I think also, because I think the way you demonstrate true remorse is by your behavior. It doesn’t matter whether you have all kinds of soft squishy feelings or whether you in fact don’t feel anything at all. What matters is what Ms Mayes does in her future life to change her behavior, and it is by her behavior that she manifests remorse. People are not always the best judges of their own internal emotional states, let alone the emotional states of others. So it is quite possible that Ms Mayes may complete whatever sentence the court hands out and emerge feeling nothing but bitterness and resentment at unfair treatment. Let us say she then proceeds to live an exemplary life and become a useful and respected member of society. Let us further assume that she makes some kind of restitution to the Victoria. Whether she cries or not is beside the point. Sentimental feelings are fleeting, and in the long run don’t matter much. As for the possibility of Victoria being reconciled with Ms Mayes and the others, yes I think it is important for the healing process for something like that to take place. But if I am correct in my appraisal of Victoria, she would place far more value in seeing the perpetrators turn their lives around than in a photo-op kind of sentimental demonstration. I get rather expansive about this because I try to determine how intent and behavior can be harmonized. I think that a good government is one that places no restriction on the transition from intent to action, and a good society is one where intent and action are so much in accord that everyone can act as they please without interfering with anyone else. And of course the full explication of what that means would take a long time.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Electronica

amy and phil you judge them and you judge me but you dont even watch all the video and read all i write. i dont think your fair to them and fair to me judge by whats true not what you just think is true.

amy and phil there was a plan for sure the plan was to kick out tori and thats what they tried to do theres proof its what tori says and what her ride says. they gave her all her things and said leave and when she didnt wanne leave merc britti kayla kept telling her leave leave leave.

and you dont plan to lure and beat up someone and then tell her to leave thats stupid. and you cant lure someone whos like already coming home anyway. i mean tori called merc first she told her shes on her way home she said so herself so again luring doesnt make any sense at all its real stupid.

and if you say open the door and let her run away that proves you dont like whats going on. and phil how could she open the door herself britti was blocking the door. true she didnt tell britti move and she didnt open the door on her own but that doesnt mean she agreed with what was going on. if she did she wouldnt say what she said why would she say it? so theres proof.

so no it wasnt planned she wasnt lured and they didnt all agree. its not even close it simply isnt so. and it doesnt matter what you or gomp or scott or greg or nav or even mercs mom says. you can all stand on your head and things will look upside down but it doesnt make them so and its the same here maybe you dont like it but she wasnt lured it wasnt planned and they didnt all agree. so there.

amy and phil you should be fair to them and to me too. and you should try to be nicer to them anyway its gonne be christmas soon so you should try to see the best in ppl!

Reply
December 22, 2008

gompertz

“A difference between previous generations and the current youth is that the current youth are a lot less happy than previous generations were, life in much more complicated, they are less safe, they have more work to do and less rewards, and the punishments are more severe than ever.”

Exactly. While the reasons are complicated, the results are easy to see. Hopelessness, frustration, bitter disappointment at the American Dream that failed to deliver, lead young people to take refuge in a subculture that values honor and respect and that is often driven by violence. That is what is happening all over and think it accounts for the Lakeland tragedy as well. What many sees as lack of remorse is simply the behavior reflecting the values of this subculture. Showing remorse may mean weakness and lead to loss of respect. It doesn’t mean these girls are evil, just that they have accepted the values of this subculture and if we want to change these girls we have to start by changing the subculture.

You bring up the case of someone who mistreats a dog and is vilified for it, like for instance, Michael Vick. People called for his execution and screamed “burn in hell!” And while I sympathize with this sentiment, I have to wonder why people are ready to condemn the torture of a dog but have no problem with the kind of treatment given to animals that are hunted. People who would shriek in horror if you subject a dog to even the slightest unpleasantness think nothing of catching a fish with a hook through its mouth and leaving it suspended and writhing in pain. Or don’t fish have feelings? And then there are internet videos of wild boar hunts that really could be conducted more humanely. Hunters and fishermen and not more cruel than other people, they are just reflecting cultural norms. So are the people who want to burn Michael Vick and so is Michael Vick himself. The Michael Vick story brought attention to a number of practices, like dog fighting and bear baiting that people didn’t know about and didn’t want to know about. Again I get a little verbose about these things but I am trying to make the point that we need to judge people according to the prevailing social standards of their own group. This doesn’t mean excusing the deed. Men from Asian cultures who perform “honor killings” on female family members are conditioned by their culture but we don’t accept that as an excuse and we call it murder. And so it is. Not all cultures need be given equal status, sometimes we have to act to change cultural prectices by whatever means necessary.

Somehow we have to change the culture that produced Michael Vick. We also need to change the culture that produced the Lakeland tragedy, though the means of changing the particular culture will have to be different in each case.

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

Gomp thats going to be very difficult. It’s difficult to change the culture because it’s the only culture my generation knows. I never grew up in a world where bullying wasn’t acceptable.

As far as fish go, I don’t think fish feel pain, but dogs certainly do and can express it. So I can understand the outrage humans have at torturing animals which can clearly feel pain. But with that being said I don’t believe in hunting for sport, if someone hunts they should do it for a rational purpose and not for “fun”.

If people have to hunt for fun, or torture animals for fun, or bully other people for fun, thats not culture, thats something wrong with them. The culture puts pressure on youth to have material wealth, it’s been like that since your generation too.

The pressure is on males to have material wealth because thats how males win the females. As a result males do whatever it takes to get material wealth, including selling drugs, joining gangs and committing crimes. They do it to impress women and it works. It worked in your generation, you had Al Capone in your generation, you had Bugsy Segal, these sorts of men were popular with the ladies.

You wonder why men are so greedy and violent and why that culture continues? natural selection is why. The women are attracted to men who have money and power, as a result all men want money and power. This is why so many young men get involved in illegal enterprise.

The women getting involved is a new thing and I think this is a result of the gender equality. Women can be gangsters too now. Women can have money and power too, but to get that, it requires the same kinda brute force and high risk behavior.

There is really no way out of this. As a young man, I don’t see a way out of this culture even if it clearly is a dead end culture. Of course I want the life associated with having money and power, because thats the “happy” life, or at least it’s the least miserable. No I don’t want to go to prison, but going to prison beats being homeless.

The options basically suck. The youth are trapped choosing between bad options. We don’t get a choice here, we have to sell out to somebody or something, whether it be a gang, or whether we join the military, we have to join something. The problem is all the groups we can join lead to high risk low reward lifestyles, and the groups which lead to rich happy lives aren’t the sorta groups which can be joined, you are either born in them or you get invited in.

Young people deserve better options than this. If you give young men and women access to wealth and power in a way where they don’t have to be a criminal to get it, the majority wont choose to be a criminal. However if you offer them a miserable life on one hand where they’ll always work for &ldquothe man&rdquo, and on the other hand you offer them a very happy life where they get to be &ldquothe man&rdquo, most will choose to be the man. Why? Because our role models are celebrities, athletes, people like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, Angelina and Brad Pitt, all of these people have lots of money and power and they all seem to be content/happy.

Nobody wants to be a garbage man, or plumber, or Mc Donalds employee, or work retail their whole life, but thats what the majority of young people are facing. Once they get a taste of what that life is like, they see it as unacceptable and choose crime as a way out of an unacceptable life.

The only way to change the culture is to give young people something to lose, because as it is now, what do young people have to lose? All the happiest people are rich and powerful and all the most miserable people are homeless. I doubt thats going to change anytime soon.

In fact, young people now beat up and kill homeless people for fun. The lives of homeless individuals have less value than the lives of prisoners.

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

Just in case people don’t believe me about the youth hunting homeless people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/nyregion/15mbrfs-burne...

latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/2008/10/los-angeles-pol.html
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-119378439.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/aldo-m31.shtml
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b49_1196376300

Why do they hunt and kill homeless people? because they know these people have no families and that nobody will investigate.

There are probably hundreds or thousands of cases like this.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Christina Garcia

Yes, very sad that some like Brad pitt is a roll model to our young men, a man who leaves his wife for a home wrecker and has babies with her…and because he has money and good looks we just over look his flaws and still pay to watch his movies!

Reply
December 22, 2008

Phil

Scott you said to me 2 days ago
” I don&rsquot think Hassall, Mayes or Nichols should face the same charges and amount of jail time as Hardcastle and Cooper .
Myself i would put BritM with April but behind BM.With all the recording she did she was way more involved than the others after the assult started . Also being 17 to Aprils 14 and Kayla,s 15 also has to be considered .

Reply
December 22, 2008

Phil

To AmyV
Now we are proscecuters . Are you lead chair or am I.You have been on this site much longer than i, Just make sure we are being fair .

Reply
December 22, 2008

gompertz

Phil you must decide whether you are “prosecutors” or, as Electronica says,”persecutors.” I just love to make trouble. : )

Reply
December 22, 2008

Phil

To gomp yoy break me up
you are still the only person i am sure between This blog
The ledger and topix who has used dinosaures to make thier point with this case .
You are indeed to worldly for this pros/persecutors to fool
lots of respect for you Mr Gompertz
even if you are stiring the pot.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Amyv

Posted by Christina

“Electronica:
We will never see any money back, only a release of lien when the court is over. And what you are saying is exactly what Judd was thinking! No money, no Bail! But my house payments don&rsquot have anything to do with her going back to jail”

As I understand bail is set to ensure a persons appearance in court and for not skipping town.
Once the accused appears in court the portion of bail posted is paid back to the individual posting it. From the few people I know who have been arrested this has always been the case.

Of course Christina is right the property lien will be taking off. So, you should be refunded your money. Injuring minds want to know is this correct?

Reply
December 22, 2008

Amyv

Posted by Gompertz:

“So the first thing we need to do is show young people that there is a lot of misery and pain in the world and that the greatest joy comes from working to alleviate that pain by acquiring the skills that enable you to make a difference.”

This is truely what this whole discussion about violence boils down to. Excellent comment. If we could only come up with someway to reach young people before something like this occurs.

Of course the only thing this case can provide at this point is to serve as a deterent. Also, to show their will be consequences to these actions.
How you stop them from happening at all is the key question. We all have different points of view. Just tyring to come to some kind of conclusions to what can be implemented in the future to stop this behavior.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Amyv

Phil:

“To AmyV
Now we are proscecuters . Are you lead chair or am I.You have been on this site much longer than i, Just make sure we are being fair .”

Phil –
Yes, even though I am the senior prosecutor on this blog, perhaps we could be refered to as the “dream team”. As, I fell you we are both equally qualified for this job. lol 🙂

We both have very strong opinions on what we see as obvious conclusions. Also, agree on the extent and intent of this crime. Although, many may disagree. Ha, no prosecutor I have ever heard of has won a popularity contest.

GregS –

I agree with you whole heartedly on the animal cruelty issues. However, not sure why you would think fish can fill no pain? Hunting just for sport is very cruel to me. I also fail to see the sport when the animal being hunted is in no way able to defend themselves. That is what I would call a “thrill kill”.

Wow, Greg I’m really having a hard time with your comments about women. I hope you are speaking for a select few and not generalizing us as a whole. Just as I choose not to do that with any race, gender, etc. For the last few decades women have wised up to their expected role in society.

As a college graduate with many female friends, we are not impressed by what a man offers in the way of financial luxuries. A man who works for his money yes. Thus the huge increase in the ratio of women earning degrees catching up to their counter parts. We should and must be able to stand on our own. Sorry to get off on womens lib. just wanted to state some facts. Especially, in this economy.

Gomp –

Now why do you want to start trouble 🙂 I thought you were a peace maker.

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

Amyv it’s nice to want young people to make a difference but whats in it for us?

You want us to fix the mess that old people made?

We are supposed to do all this work for free?

There has to be incentive to make them do these jobs. People don’t work to dedicate their lives to making a difference, thats maybe 1% of the workforce. People work because they want a better quality of life for themselves, they want a house, they want the money and power so they can get the best women/men, they want stuff like that.

What makes you think the youth want to serve the country and make a difference and be doomed to poverty and weakness in the process? How do we know some of those homeless who were set on fire weren’t veterans who served and risked their lives?

If thats how society treats people who serve, how are you going to convince me to serve? I don’t have to be a billionaire like Bill Gates but if I dedicate my life to doing good work I should at least be able to live as good as Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. But to ask people to accept a ridiculously low salary, live in a dangerously unsafe neighborhood, give up quality of life just to help others? That’s just not rational. I personally wouldn’t accept that offer.

Now if you pay me like a celebrity or give me the fame of a rock star I might change my mind and accept your offer. It’s not a question of right and wrong, it’s a question of lifestyle. Older generations such as yours will either meet us halfway or you’ll always get 1% of people who are willing to do charity and volunteer work while the rest of us are busy trying to make money and chase females and improve our living conditions.

Gomp, I can’t say I speak for all youth, but I’m probably speaking for most young men when I say your offer would be declined.

Put yourself in the position of a young man. What are the benefits of helping others to a young man?

A. Are women attracted to these sorts of guys?

The answer is no. Women are attracted to greedy selfish pricks with money and power, rock stars, celebrities, athletes. Those saintly guys don’t get the chicks, so guys don’t want to be saintly, it’s really as simple as there being more social incentives to be rich than to be saintly. The only exception to this rule is men in uniform, if a man becomes a cop or soldier he might have a better chance at being attractive to women, and theres probably financial and power psychological reasons behind that too.

B. Do these types of guys live longer happier lives?

All the evidence we see is that these types of guys end up broke, a lot of the time they end up divorced, or even homeless. To top it all off, society treats them like they are the worst people on earth in terms of how much respect they get. Do you see activists getting much respect? How about charity workers? Teachers? If there is no respect, why should a young man be motivated to do that kinda work?
Sure it has to be done, but someone has to clean toilets and mop the floors too and nobody wants to do backbreaking work which offers low pay, and no social benefits whatsoever.

The only way to reverse the trend is to stop allowing nice guys to finish last. If nice guys always finish last, nobody is going to want to be that guy because that guy is a &ldquoloser&rdquo. Until you change this, your deal is simply unacceptable, criminals get more respect and social benefits than the people you talk about.

I try to take older adults seriously, but I look at what my elders are offering me in concrete terms and really its just a lot of hard work covered up with flowery words like &ldquomake a difference&rdquo, a lot of low paying back breaking jobs, but these same adults spend most of their money making Brad Pitt and Angelina rich, or going to the Hilton Hotels to spend the night, or buying name brand products.

I’m sorry but I don’t take you seriously until I see people who are making a difference being rewarded for it in more than just the spiritual sense or religious stuff like (you’ll go to heaven if you do it), because that sorta tricker is no different than how Bin Laden tricks people into thinking (Allah will give you 60 virgins if you sacrifice yourself for our cause).

I’m not a bad guy, but I don’t have anything left to sacrifice. I’ve got nothing to lose. Ask Brad Pitt to sacrifice, he has everything.

Reply
December 22, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –

I do read your post several times. I do not think you believe what these girls did was right. You have stated that on many occassions. We just differ in opinion as to the severity and intention of these girls.

I have watched the tape several times. However, in order not to speak out of complete anger, I do not like to watch it over and over again. I already know what I saw. Some of it was not clear thus, I stated so. However, I will try one more time because for the life of me I do not think any of these girls made any clear path or added in one for her to be able to get out.

As for premeditated or not at this point I will respectively agree to disagree. I do think we both have strong opinions on that and do not seem to change. As for the kidnapping whether these girls realized that what it would be considered is doubtful. However, that is what it was and will be prosecuted as such.

I really am sorry you have to be a fighter. This is exactly what we blog about here. It should not have to come down to that. Their is enough pain that is unavoidable to aid to pain that can be avoided.

Gomp –

I will address this to you as you are the one who pointed it out. If indeed I am considered a persecutor that is o.k only if it is in reference to victims rights.

GregS –

Sorry, one more comment. I do not believe these girls require any kind of medication as I do not see any mental illness. However, I am not qualified to make that diagnosis. I agree with you doping people up is not the answer. Let me clear this up even though I think it is to much personal info. I am a therapist. However, in the line of physical therapy. Although, medication is required with many psychological disorders.

good night all.

El – I hope you have a very merry christmas. I wish this for everyone. I am trying to make mine a lot more special than just receiving and giving gifts. Appreciating family and loved ones is the most important gift of all.

Reply
December 22, 2008

GregS

I think what Amyv and Gomp are having a problem understanding is that young men in specific have psychological drives, which must be appealed to. There are certain things that most men want out of life and if you offer to give it to them then they’ll follow you but if you don’t then they’ll follow whoever gives them what they need psychologically.

An example being that men want to look good. A man psychologically needs to look good amongst his peers. Looking good is no longer defined as something that is influenced just by his behavior towards other people. Looking good is defined by what car he rides in, the size of his house, how beautiful his girlfriend is, and it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he does charity, or goes to church, or is a good person. It’s all about status. A doctor who drives a Ferarri looks better than an individual without a car riding a bus who does charity. Because the doctor has the Ferrari he looks better amongst his peers, his friends, even to women. So almost all men want a Ferrari because it makes them look good. Sure this is superficial beauty, but this is the beauty that most people understand.

A man also wants to be respected by his peers and by complete strangers. Winning respect is as important as looking good. Respect also attracts women, as women are attracted to alpha males. So of course the majority of men want to be that alpha male and be respected. A man who gives orders usually gets more respect than the man who takes orders, so men want to be the boss, in charge, in command and in control.

Finally a lot of men want to at least create the illusion that they can keep their families safe. Strength is not defined by psychological strength in this society. Strength in this society is how much financial power a man has and how many kids he has. A man who has millions of dollars and is raising 5 or 10 kids is considered to be a very strong man, even if hes psychologically very weak. His peers will see his big house, his beautiful wife and kids, his high paying job and his nice car and will think &ldquoI want to be like that guy.&rdquo, and it’s not because they want to be psychologically weak like that guy, they just want the same quality of life that guy has.

Most men don’t look at the guy living in the cheap apartment, with no car, or the guy struggling to make ends meet with his gf and think &ldquoI want to be like that guy&rdquo, because society isn’t treating that guy like hes worth very much, nobody seems to give that guy any respect, that guy is not living it up and even if that guy is the natural alpha male, his position in life doesn’t look all that dominant. The man struggling to survive might be the stronger male psychologically, he might be smarter, he might be more talented, he might even be a genius, he might be the better person, but in the end it wont matter because what will he have to show for all of that?

The problem you face with young men is psychological and cultural. Success is narrowly defined and most men know exactly what success looks like and it doesn’t have anything to do with making a difference. When thinking of solutions you have to offer solutions which appeal to the psychological drives of men. You all know what young men want, how can you offer solutions which give young men what they need, while also getting the to do the work you want them to do?

I’d accept any deal which would give me the lifestyle I’m looking for. I wont accept anything less.
If I could live the lifestyle I want which satisfies my psychological drives I’d do any kinda work, and of course I’d prefer to do work that makes a difference. But to me it’s all about lifestyles.

Offer better lifestyles for people who make a difference. Give these people some power, respect, and social status, at least to doctor levels. Stop treating them like Janitors.

Reply
December 23, 2008

Amyv

GregS-

I really don’t know your age as you do not know mine. However, I am assuming by your comments you are much younger than I originally thought you were. What is in it for you?

You have already explained what is important to you and what you think will make you happy. So go for it. Get a degree drive a fancy car. Buy a nice house. Gain the respect of those type of people. So I can’t really help you with what you want out of society.

I will tell you what I want though. A big house means nothing. A fancy car means nothing. Money can’t make life better all of the time. You
wonder why I advocate peace. Here it goes. Bad memory I never like to talk about.

I want to be able to walk down the street with my best friend at the age of 14 and not have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not to have seen her shot right in front of me. Not to see the terrible pain both of our families went through. Not to have nightmares about it. All because some punk was doing what he needed to do to get his fancy crap.

So now you tell me what kind of incentive it will take to stop making people think about what is it for them? Why should others have to suffer for peoples selfish attitudes.

Also, anyone who believe they were dying for the
good of my God on 9/11 was nothing but crazy and selfish. So if I want to live a life in peace and others interfere because they don’t see whats in it for them. Tell me whats in that for me? Won’t bring her back.

Reply
December 23, 2008

gompertz

Greg, the search for status and power has been sidetracked because of the downfall of western civilization. In the 60s only a few beatniks and eccentric types worried about the loss of meaning but today an ever increasing number of people are becoming aware of it. It is not for me or any of the “older generation”to offer what no longer exists. And I don’t believe there is any way to get back to the traditional verities. It is nobody’s fault. In the nineteenth century people believed that all the fundamental questions had been answered by classical physics, then along came Einstein, then quantum theory, then string theory and today nobody believes in a final answer. As Niels Bohr said, “There is no deep reality,” and then he became a follower of Eastern Philosophy.

I believe that those who hold on to the American Dream are only going to find disappointment. Sorry to be so blunt. I don’t offer pie in the sky or panaceas. I adhere to a rather austere form of Buddhist/Taoist system that makes no promises. I agree that those who do volunteer work and charity get little respect, and it is up to each individual what kind of personal satisfaction he gets from it. I myself have had occasion to be cynical and bitter about the way women don’t respect “nice guys”. They sure go for the bad boys, don’t they? Yes, long ago I learned what it takes to impress the girls and I made some compromises with my convictions when I was young. But that is a whole other story.

As for those psychological drives of young men, military recruiters have known for thousands of years how to utilize those drives and the young men have been falling for it, and I mean really falling for it, and dying in great numbers. But it’s all for the glory, and the ones who survive win the adulation of the young women. Then the advertisers and corporate bosses and industrialists cater to those psychological drives and the young men pursue their dreams. And today with the collapse of the economy we may finally see the end of predatory capitalism but it won’t lead to a golden age of socialism. More likely we are heading for the kind of post-apocalyptic world we see in one of those Mad Max movies. And the reason we are not heading for the golden age is that the biological and psychological drives don’t support it. We seem to be reverting to a state of nature whether there is a nuclear war or not. That is why it is necessary to look for new solutions, not because we are giving up on our psychological drives but because the social environment doesn’t support our search for gratification. I have seen the world change tremendously in my lifetime and the present conditions you describe, I don’t think they are permanent. The drives, the search for power, for sex, are always there but the way these drives are realized has changed and will continue to change in unforeseeable ways.

So the guy who looks good today with his affluence and beautiful girl friend will not llook good tomorrow and his girl friend will no longer be his. The people who lose their wealthon the stock market are not going to get it back and only a tiny few will survive the constant economic upheavals. The percentage of winners is probably smaller than the percentage of guys doing volunteer work. For the vast majority, the ones who are neither Warren Buffet or the guy volunteering, I do not predict a rosy future. All I can say is the world is changing and we all have to be ready to change with it. As a Buddhist I believe that everything is impermanent and we get no refuge in clinging to our dreams. As someone who has read Nietzche I believe that the Will to Power exists in everyone, even the guy who selflessly sacrifices his time to help others. The Will to Power is there no matter what kind of society emerges.

As for myself I have lived the dream up to a point, I have made adjustments to reality and I have had good times and bad times. What I don’t see is anyone offering you anything better and I am not optimistic that many of your generation will find gratification they are seeking, or at least not total gratification. You yourself are evidently intelligent and have ambition and drive. To be honest, that gives you a chance to succeed but it still depends not only on talent but also a little luck. And if the coming changes in the world turn out to be as cataclysmic as I think they will, we have only the choice of reverting to the state of nature where we live like beasts or cooperating to build a new society. Not because we want to be like the poor fool who sacrifices his time to volunteer but because we want to satisfy our psychological drives. That is why I think Eastern Philosophy is so important because it offers a way to gratify our drives and at the same time help to build a better society because without that better society no one will get what they want or need. I don’t know if I am making a lot of sense but even if I get more sleep I don’t think I will sound more optimistic. Life is what we make it, with a little luck thrown in.

Reply
December 23, 2008

GregS

Amyv I’m not saying our lifestyle is right or even desirable, but we aren’t being offered any alternatives. I’ve lost people as well, so I agree with you and I want peace too, but peace isn’t being offered to me by anyone. The government is offering me a war to fight. The streets are offering wars and conflicts over resources. There is no avoiding it. I can’t have a good life without fighting for it. I wont be happy without fighting for my rights to be happy. It’s always a war on some level and the only choice I get is how I want to fight.

Do I want to fight for quality of life in the streets by joining a gang? Do I want to fight in a classroom by getting degrees? Do I want to fight in the military? But because the resources are finite, it’s a zero sum game. We can’t all win, and I’m just trying not to be one of the losers. I’d like for it not to be this way but it just is, and with globalization it’s only getting worse. My foreign competition will never give up their fight for quality of life, if I’m lazy then I’ll lose whatever I have and society will replace me.

The fact that young Americans know in their hearts that they are replaceable is part of the reason why young people are deciding to focus so much on respect, power, wealth, because thats the only way to be irreplaceable. If you are the boss you don’t have to worry about being fired or replaced by foreign labor. It’s not even that simple but the market conditions is what controls the psychological conditions of a lot of youth in our country. The last 8 years have been very cynical, competitive, and uninspiring, as a result a lot of young individuals are taking different approaches to life.

My age is 27, I’m not that old, but I’m not a teenager either. My generation is struggling to survive and not be poor for the rest of their lives. The truth of any generation is that there are winners and losers, thats just how capitalism and society as a whole works. My concern is not to be a loser, I want to be successful, thats why I went to college and got a degree in the first place. Success isn’t an option in my culture, it’s a must.

I don’t think we have to stop making people think about whats in it for them. Thats just what guides most peoples behavior. We just need to make sure theres something in it for them. We can’t all be Jesus Christ, Ghandi, etc, and it’s not fair that we should have to be.

I just think you are asking too much of us. Most people are just trying to survive and be successful and if they can manage to do that, then they want to help others and donate to charity. It’s not fair to ask people to give back to a society that hasn’t given them anything.

Reply
December 23, 2008

GregS

Gomp, Amyv, I think libertarianism is the only path to peace. I say libertarianism is the path because it’s the only ideology which puts quality of life / liberty first. When governments restrict behavior and demolish rights, quality of life decreases and people become unhappy. When people become unhappy they have to find happiness anywhere they can, this usually means buying more cars, a bigger house, being more successful at work, because thats all people have less once the government is finished telling them what they can’t do.

Libertarianism is not left or right, there is libertarian socialism, libertarianism is not corporatism, and corporate libertarians aren’t really anymore libertarian than Republicans and Democrats, because to put corporations before people is as unethical as putting governments before people. What can we do to maximize happiness among young people? Well for one, young people are saying they want to be able to share media over the internet without being sued for copyright infringement. The government cracks down on them, which reduces their overall happiness to preserve the profits of a few mafia corporate suits. This is part of the reason why young people need to buy happiness, even stuff which used to be free like music and movies costs money. I’m not saying concerns, theaters or that nobody should pay for entertainment, but do adults question who benefits when young people are being arrested for downloading mp3s without permission? Society does not benefit because people aren’t happy about it, it’s merely to protect the profits of those I’ll define as the mafia types.

It’s not just with mp3s, it’s also the marijuana issue, you have young people being arrested and locked in prison for smoking marijuana. By arresting these young people, lives are being ruined not saved, nobody is happy to see this, and it reduces the overall happiness of young people. There are so many examples I could cite where we put profits before happiness in this society, that I’ve internal come to the conclusion that happiness has no value to society. And if happiness has no value, then emotions such as compassion also have no value. It’s merely a mechanism which people who already run society use to manipulate people or to make people work.

I advocate we put quality of life first when we make laws, when we make political decisions, and I ask the two of you and others, when you consider what political position to take, please consider how each decision influences the quality of life of people. It’s not just a matter of protecting the wealth of a few at the expense of making the world miserable. We should put quality of life before wealth on a policy level and this will begin to reverse the trend. I’m convinced that people will be able to find other avenues to happiness if we stop blocking all the roads. Now I don’t think drugs and rock n roll are the only or best way to find happiness. But a lot of young people want that lifestyle, they want to be rock n roll stars, they don’t want to work a desk job, so why don’t we design our society in a way that we can allow them to live that lifestyle if in exchange they give back to the society?

Whatever the lifestyle is, we should allow it and make it so money isn’t the issue. Once a majority of young people are living the lifestyle that makes them happy, they wont have to choose between two bad options of success or failure, they’ll be able to be happy whether they are successful or not.
Gomp, Amyv, I think libertarianism is the only path to peace. I say libertarianism is the path because it’s the only ideology which puts quality of life / liberty first. When governments restrict behavior and demolish rights, quality of life decreases and people become unhappy. When people become unhappy they have to find happiness anywhere they can, this usually means buying more cars, a bigger house, being more successful at work, because thats all people have less once the government is finished telling them what they can’t do.

Libertarianism is not left or right, there is libertarian socialism, libertarianism is not corporatism, and corporate libertarians aren’t really anymore libertarian than Republicans and Democrats, because to put corporations before people is as unethical as putting governments before people. What can we do to maximize happiness among young people? Well for one, young people are saying they want to be able to share media over the internet without being sued for copyright infringement. The government cracks down on them, which reduces their overall happiness to preserve the profits of a few mafia corporate suits. This is part of the reason why young people need to buy happiness, even stuff which used to be free like music and movies costs money. I’m not saying concerns, theaters or that nobody should pay for entertainment, but do adults question who benefits when young people are being arrested for downloading mp3s without permission? Society does not benefit because people aren’t happy about it, it’s merely to protect the profits of those I’ll define as the mafia types.

It’s not just with mp3s, it’s also the marijuana issue, you have young people being arrested and locked in prison for smoking marijuana. By arresting these young people, lives are being ruined not saved, nobody is happy to see this, and it reduces the overall happiness of young people. There are so many examples I could cite where we put profits before happiness in this society, that I’ve internal come to the conclusion that happiness has no value to society. And if happiness has no value, then emotions such as compassion also have no value. It’s merely a mechanism which people who already run society use to manipulate people or to make people work.

I advocate we put quality of life first when we make laws, when we make political decisions, and I ask the two of you and others, when you consider what political position to take, please consider how each decision influences the quality of life of people. It’s not just a matter of protecting the wealth of a few at the expense of making the world miserable. We should put quality of life before wealth on a policy level and this will begin to reverse the trend. I’m convinced that people will be able to find other avenues to happiness if we stop blocking all the roads. Now I don’t think drugs and rock n roll are the only or best way to find happiness. But a lot of young people want that lifestyle, they want to be rock n roll stars, they don’t want to work a desk job, so why don’t we design our society in a way that we can allow them to live that lifestyle if in exchange they give back to the society?

Whatever the lifestyle is, we should allow it and make it so money isn’t the issue. Once a majority of young people are living the lifestyle that makes them happy, they wont have to choose between two bad options of success or failure, they’ll be able to be happy whether they are successful or not.

Libertarian thinking is maximizing liberty to increase opportunity/options. Increased options is the only way to allow a majority of people to be both successful and happy.

Reply
December 23, 2008

GregS

Gomp I like what you are saying and I have been offering solutions. But we must properly market these solutions to appeal to the drives of men. It’s a marketing problem. People who want to create a better work get the marketing all wrong, they market themselves like members of the church and talk about saving the world like it’s a good persons religious duty. This is the exact wrong way to market it to a cynical crowd.

We will never revert to a state of nature. What I see happening is a return to a sorta of mafia feudal type society based on clans. Very much like the clans in Asia. When times get tough people depend on their families, not the governments, not the police, not the corrupt society, not their neighbor, they depend on their family members and their clan. The clan could also mean gang, or mafia, or cult, or crew, or fraternity etc.

I think people get what they collectively take. Harsh conditions will make the youth tougher. When the economy is in a recession or depression, the takers are rewarded, the people who are in gangs or groups are rewarded. Only when times are good can individuals be successful on their own, when things are bad it’s groups that go to battle against groups because it takes more organization and manpower to accomplish the same thing.

My best hope is that we learn to appeal to the psychology of young males for more than just to turn them into soldiers. We need to appeal to their psychology to make them fight for a better world for all, but alpha males don’t tend to follow anyone other than alpha males so it will take other alpha males doing the appealing and the appeals have to be based in material terms and not religious terms.

Yes you can get many soldiers who fight to save the world but you still need a G.I. Bill. Soldiers want to know they and their family will be taken care of in exchange for their sacrifices and this should be understandable. Being a warrior for peace is high risk, being an activist is high risk.

Reply
December 23, 2008

Phil

To AmyV
We muat be the dream team because dreaming is the only way these defendants get what they deserve
But remember .
IF THE TAPE MADE YOU SICK YOU MUST CONVICT

Reply
December 23, 2008

Christina Garcia

No AMy, I will never get a refund of monies put forth, if that were the case a bail bondsman would not make a living. 8500.00 + 3300.00= 11800.00 no refund of this.

Reply
December 23, 2008

gompertz

Greg, the kinds of tragedies experienced by you and Amy are not unique. My friends and relatives have also been touched by the violence. It is usually sudden and unforeseeable, and I have known good people whose children were murdered and I have known other good people who were visited by cops who informed them that their child was arrested.

Look at the case here. Christina’s family lived in relative peace and prosperity and then suddenly it all went downhill, and then the power of technology and an opportunistic lawman complete the tragedy. Those who claim these things could be prevented and it’s the fault of the parents are denying the reality of modern life.

I am suspicious of plans for improving society because life is too unpredictable,and not just for individuals. The course of history follows its own logic , and events rarely conform to our desires. As I said before, holocausts start with good intentions.

That is why I think we should limit our goals and work with what is available. The process of clan formation you describe is happening now. Society is becoming fragmented into groups whose loyalties are to the clan and not to the nation or to humanity . Special interest groups dominate public life with their separate agendas. This does not have to be a bad thing, though. Those who follow martial arts and eastern philosophy could be seen as another special interest group with its own agenda too, and if people want to look at it that way, let them.

There are groups devoted to stamp collecting and tropical fish there’s nothing wrong with that. But while the martial arts community may be seen by some as just another special interest, it is much more. The universal appeal of martial arts is more in sync with the psychology of those young males (and females) you speak of and is attracting ever increasing numbers of practitioners. The thing is to understand that there is a social aspect to martial arts and that its adherents really constitute a community, not just a bunch of “fans” like those sports fanatics who study the sports pages as if they were reading holy scriptures but have no inclusive philosophy.

But I have to backtrack a little. I wonder if things are really as bleak as you describe for those guys who don’t fit the image of conquering heroes. There are guys who do volunteer work in soup kitchens and still have a satisfying social life. They don’t all live empty lonely lives in tiny one-room apartments, though some do make that choice. Then there are the skinny guys with glasses who never get a date in high school. Some of them become computer programmers and work their way up to positions of power and affluence in the corporate world and then they get dates. Meanwhile the high school jock gets a beer belly and winds up pumping gas for a living. At least that is how it happens sometimes and it surprises us, until we learn to expect the unexpected.

The point is that much of what happens in life depends on luck but the winners are the ones who create their own luck. The government will keep screwing with us no matter who is in power, so no help there. They will keep trying to send us to fight their wars for oil or whatever and expect us to follow the waving flag and believe in WMD’s over in some desert when the WMD’s are in our own backyard and controlled by our own people. We must celebrate our own diversity and the right to follow our dream and not let the government tell us what to think and dream. And if someone would rather be a stamp collector than a kung fu fighter, let him, it’s all part of diversity. Back in the 60s people said “hell no, we wont go” and they asked, “what if they gave a war and nobody came?” They were affirming their right to make their own choices. Some became rich and successful, some OD’d on drugs. You can’t predict these things but what is important is to be master of your own destiny.

For me what is important is intensity. The martial artist following the Tao can be devoted to his course with greater devotion than the stamp collector, though I am tolerant of those who choose to be stamp collectors.

That is why I follow this case. The number of people who supported Victoria at first has dwindled and to me that means that they were not very supportive to begin with. Those of us who remain devoted will not waver in our support because intensity is more important than numbers.

As for hoping that libertarian values will be implemented by society, I wouldn’t count on it happening. Many have said that democracy leads to tyranny and it probably does. I think that the best we may get is a system where different groups oppose each other and that government will be less able to impose its power because of that kind of fragmentation. But that is a whole other discussion and now I’m going out to dinner.

Reply
December 23, 2008

gompertz

Phil, “If the tape made you sick you must convict” will have more influence on a jury than stories about dinosaurs. Excellent!

Reply
December 23, 2008

Phil

To GregS and anybody else who may be interested.It seems everyone is in
a deep mood these last days trying to make sense out of what appears to be a mess, To Greg ,it has never been easy . When my parents talk about the simpler times they forget that people of colour were not aloud in the same restaurents . Or women could
not make thier own way and dream of better things . I worked for a jewish boss who when he was 19 went into a hotel that read NO Jews Or Dogs . The good old days were not so good for him and he had his own war to fight .As do all people who find themselves oppressed … Greg You mentioned that the fact that you having to fight for a good life is not fair . i see this word used so much .Its not fair, you are not being fair ,why are they not being fair. Fair is a word used to compare . So fairness itself is fleeting at best . Electronica and I are so far apart on what is fair that you could never build a consenus on anything if fairness is your goal ‘ it is too arbitrary. Many people in the Middle East would say that it would be fair to kill every American alive today. Greg , Life is a battle .it always has been and always will .It is thruogh these times of conlict that we grow and are given the oppurtunity to be bettet because of it . It is not fighting these battles that is the crime . White people sat around and did nothing while thier brothers and sisters of colour were butalized and humiliated and my parents generation did nothing ,nothing at all . Does this sound familiar when you look what happened in Lakeland this year. This is nothing knew nor is the battle that must be fought. You do not have to be Ghandi or Jesus or Confusious . You do have look for the good things in life and they are everywhere ‘except in the news . For every horible story you here do not forget there are a thousand more good ones that are not news worthy. you should go to the park and watch A father with his kids .You should talk to all the people that spend there lives trying to help the homeless so you can balance this against the far fewer who would show them Harm..These defendants also now have thier own battle to face and it is every bit as improtant that they win it as it is for the rest of us .Good luck Greg in your wars . You do not have to change the world but if we all took resonsibility for our own it probally would not be nessacary.

Reply
December 23, 2008

gompertz

Phil: I agree with everything you said. As for the inequalities of those days, I can add my own testimony as to the intolerance in the name of religion then prevalent. The nuns used to warn us about “bad companions.” These were people who seemed very nice but could mislead us in subtle ways from the right path straight into hell. It took me a long time to figure out who these “bad companions” ere. They were the children who went to the Lutheran church across the street.

Every decision had to be made with a view to religious conformity, from the choice of day camps to dentists and grocery stores. Don’t even think of going to that Dr. Rubinstein, you know how those jewish dentists are, you don’t want to make them rich.That was in the fifties and then came the Ecumenical movement and things lightened up in the 60s, and those were great days. Ho Chi Minh was asked what he thought were the benefits of the French Revolution, and he replied “It’s too early to tell.” So more me it’s too early to tell what benefits I derived from the sixties. Anyway I studied Marx in those days and though I have modified my views about Marx I never abandoned him. I never turn my back in my old friends, even if like Marx they have been dead for over a century. lol

I just threwin that last part because I wanted to say something “wordly.” LOL : ) : ) : )

Reply
December 23, 2008

Phil

All Markist are worldly, it can’t be helped .When I was younger and i still knew everything .I admired and still do the person like yourself and GregS who could talk on these deep subjects and even when i was much younger i could usually hold my own.,. . .I have studied history and can probally hold my own with most people. Every generation believes that they are facing the worst that has ever been.
And every Generation can blame the previous one for the mess they got left.It always comes down to the size of your heart and very rarely to the size of your brain.This is why anybody can do amazings things.The song Amazing Grace is about a former traficer in slaves who realized what he had done . He went from someone who created evil to someone who inspired goodness . These defendants also created evil but they do not have to come near as
far .Even as bad as Brit M was or even as bad we may feel about Mercades betrayal it does not compare to the true atrocities that have and are being commited .This does not change what I feel about the crime s commited or the punishment i would seek for these girls. But Greg .Amy and Phil .Do not give up on these girls or the society they live in . They may all do amazing things .

Reply
December 23, 2008

Amyv

Phil Comment:

To AmyV
“We muat be the dream team because dreaming is the only way these defendants get what they deserve
But remember .
IF THE TAPE MADE YOU SICK YOU MUST CONVICT”

Oh, my god funniest thing I have read yet:) Very clever. I do think the only justice in this case is if it goes to trial plea deals are way to easy and the wave of the future. No deterent if their are still facts, although I agree the tape speaks of itself, that people disagree on.

No excuse for the length of time this has taken to bring justice to the victim. Still don’t understand why all of these pretrials are required or allowed. I blame the prosecution and defense in this case. Casey Anthony will be charged before this case is over.

Reply
December 23, 2008

gompertz

Phil, brilliant observations. I had forgotten that thing about Amazing Grace, good to be reminded of it. And one day we will hear about amazing Mercades and amazing Brittany, and all the rest will find redemption. None of us needs to possess the wealth of Ebenezer Scrooge to atone for their wrongs, they need HEART. And Victoria will lead them.

Isn’t Christmas wonderful?

Reply
December 23, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz and GregS –

Wow, is the testosteron flying aroud here. lol:)
Greg we are not a world apart in age. Just a decade give or take a year. I actually do believe in a lot of things you say.

You have made many wise choices in your life. Rose above a bad situation and bettered yourself in that aspect alone I am sure you take great pride. My experience does not equate to having to face a dangerous environment on a daily basis. Not when I was younger anyway.

At this time we face danger evert time we walk out the front door. I love what I do for a living so I am one of the lucky ones. Many false starts at other careers though that were totally unsatisfying. I had to make a choice this year between two job opportunites. One with a much better salary. Worked at both and choose the lesser pay. Environment in the work place of the first was miserable. This is what I mean by money can’t buy you happiness. Although, you already know that.

I agree young men and women are being lured into a war that promises heroism as a result. At what cost? I do also agree it is over oil. This does not mean I do not have the greatest respect for the men and women defending our country. For it is them that allow us the freedoms we continue to enjoy in this country today.

Please guys I am out numbered here. So, I will speak for a lot of good decent women I know. Yes, Iwill admit I have been attracted to a bad boy or two in my life. However, that wears off pretty quick. Money, we are holding our own. If a woman is interested in just your money and social status she is not worth having. Greg I thought you said you were married before not sure. If you are not go after a real woman. Smart, intelligent and of course attractive (whatever that may be in your eyes). These are the ones who will truely bring happiness to your live. Get away from the gold diggers. Yes, hold on to yourselves women can be pretty and well educated at the same time. lol:) Being secure financialy is prefered from both sexs. However, rich don’t know what that feels like.

Greg – A lot of my guy friends are looking for women who do not depend on them for financial support. Although, some of them could easily provide it. They say they find women more attractive if they are not needy in that way. What is your thoughts? A pick up line 🙂 Don’t mean to sound like Orpah Winfrey don’t even watch those shows. Just wondering?

However, I must take my leave as Gompertz and Electronica have given me a bed time? 🙂

Good night all. Merry Christmas. We can all agree this time of year provides a sense of peacefullness if only fleeting.

Reply
December 23, 2008

Phil

Thanks Guys
Merry Christmas

Reply
December 23, 2008

GregS

&ldquoThe process of clan formation you describe is happening now. Society is becoming fragmented into groups whose loyalties are to the clan and not to the nation or to humanity . &ldquo

The nation is like a giant clan, or group of clans. I can’t say they aren’t being loyal to the nation by being loyal to their clan, but it’s up to the state to align nation and clan so that loyalty to nation and loyalty to clan are interchangeable. If we look at any ancient culture, asia, Africa, anywhere, people are loyal to their clan. The country is made up of clans working together, or tribes working together, not complete strangers.

I understand that you are a conservative and against radical change. I think however our situation is currently so bad that radical change is necessary for the survival of the union. If we are going to survive, we must make radical changes. It does not mean all radical change leads to Hitler. What leads to Hitler is centralized power structures and putting all the decisions in the hands of one man, and thats something I’m against. Thats why I encourage people to follow ideologies which empower individuals, like libertarianism, rather than ideologies which weaken individual and civil liberties. I think authoritarianism is what leads to Hitlers and libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism.

It’s authoritarianism that I am most against because I believe it’s this way of thinking which leads to dictators and holocausts. For anyone who doesn’t know what authoritarianism is, here you go

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

Reply
December 23, 2008

GregS

Amyv no I’m not married. If you look at the history of attraction, attraction works by luring or baiting the opposite sex. This is just a fact of nature, all animals do it. This tends to favor the animals who are defined by culture as being the &ldquostrongest&rdquo and &ldquofittest&rdquo. In Western culture the fittest are those who have wealth.

You are right about the changes in demographics. Yes now women have wealth and power and it’s not the same situation anymore. But women who have wealth and power aren’t necessarily masters at using their wealth and power to attract men. It might have to do with the fact that women are just now getting that wealth and power and haven’t developed strategies to use it to bait or lure a mate.

&rdquo
However, that wears off pretty quick. Money, we are holding our own. If a woman is interested in just your money and social status she is not worth having. &ldquo

I know you mean well, but this is a cultural difference. In your culture perhaps many decent women have money and so of course you can say &ldquoif a woman is interested in just your money and social status she is not worth having&rdquo, but very few males actually believe that. I do agree with you that it’s best to have a mate who actually loves you, but money and status are equally important because when it comes to deciding who to marry and who to raise kids with, money and status are the deciding factor when the woman in this situation has neither money or status. It’s rational for any woman to want the strongest, most educated, most financially fit partner to raise and protect her kids.

&rdquoGet away from the gold diggers. &ldquo

Like I said previously, yes it’s easy to date any kinda woman, but when it comes to marriage and children, women want to know that the man has the resources to raise and protect his offspring. The exception being women who are exceptionally rich, but lets be realistic here, it’s not like the majority of women are going to be rich, so there are going to be financial requirements on the guy and I think this is the way things should be. I don’t consider a woman a gold digger for wanting the best life for her offspring, I consider her rational. I only consider a woman a gold digger if shes the type who doesn’t ever want kids and wants to lead rich guys on. Those women are gold diggers because they only are dating the guy because hes rich, not because he’s actually worth marrying and having a family with.

&rdquoThey say they find women more attractive if they are not needy in that way. What is your thoughts?&rdquo

I’m very rational about it. I don’t find women more attractive if they are rich. Attraction is based entirely on their personality and physical appearance, if they have those. If a woman has money however then it’s less stress on me when it comes to raising kids, so depending on my own financial status I’ll probably be more likely to marry a woman who has a lot of money if I don’t have much money myself, however if I have a lot of money myself then I’ll have more options.

Children are expensive, and becoming more expensive every year, having a family is expensive.
If a woman has a good personality, then she’ll be attractive and I’ll want to date her. If she’s financially fit, or I am financially fit, then I’ll want to marry her and have kids. But I wont have kids if I’m not financially fit and shes not. So children and marriage is more about financial fitness to me, while dating is more about personality and love.

Reply
December 24, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I would say I am a pragmatist which sometimes makes me take conservative positions on some issues. Fir instance I am against liberal (or better yet, permissive) judges who turn murderers and rapists lose. These judges are usually activists who legislate from the bench and justify their excessive leniency by appealing to ideological arguments. The result is criminals being released back into society to commit new offenses. In such a case I would take a conservative position but in other cases I am not conservative. But labels can mislead. It depends on the particular case. Look at the situation in Polk County. I believe the fix was in from the start, defense and prosecutors playing to public sentiment for their own benefit, with no regard for the victim or anyone but themselves. Maybe a conservative would overlook the corruption there and argue that it is better to support authority, no matter how corrupt, rather than risk anarchy. That is definitely not my position. I think the corruption should be investigated and these people removed from office.

I take a libertarian position on most issue on principle but I believe the implementation of libertarian goals has to take account of existing conditions. If the time is not right for radical change than the attempt to enforce change leads to results different from what was intended. In that respect, I agree with both Marx and Hayek. Hayek actually called himself a libertarian but said that libertarians have to ally themselves with conservatives sometimes to achieve their goals.

As for Marx, he believed in the ultimate goal of liberation from all forms of bondage, whether human authority or material scarcity. But, unlike his modern followers, he believed that change would have to follow a course dictated by material economic conditions. His master work, Capital, was an analysis of the social and economic structure of his society. While he predicted the downfall of the system, the way that system would be transformed depended on very specific factors within the system, and these factors did not depend on human action. As for any attempt to bring about social change by intervening in the working of the system, he dismissed as “utopian.” So, we might say Marx was a little bit of a conservative, since he believed that change did not depend on human agency so much as material forces.

Of course his followers changed all that and instituted radical change prematurely and look where that led. Ultimately it led to Pol Pot who killed millions of people, but he still has his defenders on the Left because he had good intentions, or so they say.

If, as you say, things are so bad that they have to be changed at all costs, then who is going to bring about these changes? The government? I don’t think so. Are the various clans, mafias, kinship groups, tribes, etc. going to band together and overthrow the system? That was the hope of Herbert Marcuse, the great modern Marxist. Marcuse thought things were so bad they had to change but he knew that Marx’s predictions about the end of capitalism had not come true. So he grasped at desperate solutions. Some Marxists have told me that if Marcuse is right about how bad things are, then the struggle is hopeless, because his solution is no solution.

As for the clans or tribes of traditional cultures like Africa and Asia, the clan could express the ethos of the nation and clans could harmonize in support of the greater national polity of which they were part. The trouble with modern society is that capitalism disrupted the bond between clan and clan, between clan and nation, and between individuals. It forces all to become subservient to the need to produce for private profit and community is destroyed. That is why the new social structures of clans are the only foundation on which to build There is nothing authoritarian about a clan, it exists either because of loyalty to a group ideal or because its member find strength in joining forces for mutual aid. But today loyalty to larger political units is being replaced by loyalty to other types of organization. If you work for a multinational corporation you will be loyal to that corporation and that will exceed your loyalty to your nation, at least if you want to feed your family. But wherever your loyalty, it tends to be more exclusive and localized than under the traditional system.

Now, it may be that things are unendurably bad, but I don’t know if abolishing or transforming clan loyalties, or loyalties to political or economic entities like corporations, will matter, even if we could find a way to do so. What we can do is form groups that will command loyalty based on perceived common interest, such as martial arts, and counterbalance the interests of other groups butin a way that does not exclude the possibility of cooperation among different groups. That is how we begin to build a new sense of community. Inmy college days I knew some people who called themselves libertarians but also called themselves anarchists. There was much discussion of the distinction between “anarchy” and “anarchism”, and anarchy was just lack of structure while anarchism meant a coherent philosophy that rejected the authority of governemnts. My sympathy was always with anarchism as so defined. Disputes arose as to the proper method of realizing this goal and that has not changed. But always the goal was the creation of a society where people formed groups based on common interests but all these groups would mutually cooperate for the common good.

Reply
December 24, 2008

GregS

Greg, I would say I am a pragmatist which sometimes makes me take conservative positions on some issues.
Thats precisely why I’m not a Democrat or Republican. Neither are pragmatic and both of them have the same core authoritarian beliefs. They both believe that we are the property of either the government or of corporations.
If you want to see an interesting site, http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl04.shtml I in no way endorse the ideas on that site. I don’t believe the ideas on that site are practical. I’m showing you this site because I want you to understand the philosophy behind libertarianism which I think is displayed perfectly by that site. The site is an example of the libertarian spirit even if we both admit that libertarianism in it’s pure form is not practical and a bit too radical to be accepted.
Fir instance I am against liberal (or better yet, permissive) judges who turn murderers and rapists lose. These judges are usually activists who legislate from the bench and justify their excessive leniency by appealing to ideological arguments.
Rapists are terrorists, and rape is a hate crime. If a man rapes a woman, he hates her. It’s not about sex and I’m tired of seeing rape labeled as a sex crime. I don’t really agree with the hate crime laws because these laws are authoritarian, but I’ve read the art of war and I understand how Akido works, you take the energy from the enemy and use it against them. The hate crime laws should be used against rapists, not because I like the fact that these laws exist, but because it’s in our tactical advantage to apply these laws to protect women from men who hate their gender.

I take a libertarian position on most issue on principle but I believe the implementation of libertarian goals has to take account of existing conditions. If the time is not right for radical change than the attempt to enforce change leads to results different from what was intended. In that respect, I agree with both Marx and Hayek. Hayek actually called himself a libertarian but said that libertarians have to ally themselves with conservatives sometimes to achieve their goals.
The time looks right to me. We have a situation now where groups are naturally divided into clans. We are talking about a green revolution, but the best way to have a green revoluton is through green libertarianism. The government cannot create an economic revolution to say the environment and this is where libertarian policies begin to make the most sense. The carbon tax is compatible with libertarian ideology when its applied to corporations. Libertarians are not anti regulation when it’s applied to corporations. Libertarians are against regulations on the behavior of individuals who aren’t harming anyone else. I don’t see why we need to waste our time and our man power with all of these stupid laws. If our biggest concern is saving the environment we should use libertarian ideology and means to get the job done in the most efficient way.
Tax incentives instead of bailouts, thats libertarianism. We have to reprogram the market using libertarian policies, because government cannot create fundamental change in the market using the FDR approaches of printing money and literally having the government build solar panels. Sure it sounds like it would work, but what would work better is to create new markets which allow people to follow their greed, and let the most greedy selfish people indirectly work to save the environment using libertarian policies. Carbon credits are another example of libertarian policies. I like FDR but I just don’t think the FDR approach will be enough to save the environment even if that approach could save the economy. The government couldn’t TELL automobile companies to increase fuel standards, that was bad policy. The government should have simply put a tax on fuel to begin with and let the greed of the market itself force automobile makers to switch to the fuels which have lower taxes because if they dont, nobody will buy their cars.
As for Marx, he believed in the ultimate goal of liberation from all forms of bondage, whether human authority or material scarcity. But, unlike his modern followers, he believed that change would have to follow a course dictated by material economic conditions. His master work, Capital, was an analysis of the social and economic structure of his society. While he predicted the downfall of the system, the way that system would be transformed depended on very specific factors within the system, and these factors did not depend on human action. As for any attempt to bring about social change by intervening in the working of the system, he dismissed as &ldquoutopian.&rdquo So, we might say Marx was a little bit of a conservative, since he believed that change did not depend on human agency so much as material forces.
Marx’s ideas were utopian. I don’t have a problem with his ideas on paper, but humans are too greedy and selfish for it. That is why I favor libertarian socialism which is in my opinion the best most pure form of socialism that can exist. To understand what libertarian socialism is, read this http://www.social-ecology.org/article.php?story=20031117... http://www.social-ecology.org/staticpages/index.php?page...
It’s not anarchy like a lot of people think. There would be national government, only it wouldn’t be centralized power, but distributed fairly evenly. The only time where centralized power is required is during a war.
Of course his followers changed all that and instituted radical change prematurely and look where that led. Ultimately it led to Pol Pot who killed millions of people, but he still has his defenders on the Left because he had good intentions, or so they say.
President Reagan and Bush both instituted radical change, as did FDR, and it did not lead to millions of people being killed. I admit there was a war going on so in that context millions were killed, but it was not millions of Americans who were killed. Either way, at this point radical change is unavoidable because the entire economy has collapsed, we are in the same position Germany was in, we are in the position the USA was in right before the great depression. FDR restored the USA through radical change, he for example reformed and removed prohibition. This is what has to take place with the marijuana laws in my opinion. On that issue FDR was right. FDR however did things which we couldn’t hope to do today because the US economy was an economy backed by Gold, while today the US economy is just a printing press printing dollars and relying on credit. Which is why we are in this situation to begin with, it’s going to take radical change and probably a new currency to fix this. I’m going to go ahead and say it, the dollar is officially a dead currency.
If, as you say, things are so bad that they have to be changed at all costs, then who is going to bring about these changes? The government? I don&rsquot think so. Are the various clans, mafias, kinship groups, tribes, etc. going to band together and overthrow the system? That was the hope of Herbert Marcuse, the great modern Marxist. Marcuse thought things were so bad they had to change but he knew that Marx&rsquos predictions about the end of capitalism had not come true. So he grasped at desperate solutions. Some Marxists have told me that if Marcuse is right about how bad things are, then the struggle is hopeless, because his solution is no solution.
This is where we agree. Tragically there are no leaders who are going to save America.
If you work for a multinational corporation you will be loyal to that corporation and that will exceed your loyalty to your nation, at least if you want to feed your family. But wherever your loyalty, it tends to be more exclusive and localized than under the traditional system.
The US government itself is a multinational corporation. The US government has been privitized since the federal reserve bank was privitized.

. Inmy college days I knew some people who called themselves libertarians but also called themselves anarchists. There was much discussion of the distinction between &ldquoanarchy&rdquo and &ldquoanarchism&rdquo, and anarchy was just lack of structure while anarchism meant a coherent philosophy that rejected the authority of governments. My sympathy was always with anarchism as so defined. Disputes arose as to the proper method of realizing this goal and that has not changed. But always the goal was the creation of a society where people formed groups based on common interests but all these groups would mutually cooperate for the common good.
I recognize the need for government. I even recognize the need for authority. I just don’t think that authority should come from people who aren’t members of our community. If some individuals in DC are the authority for all communities across the country, and they make all the decisions for us, it’s no wonder why community no longer exists. Of course there are no leaders when all authority has been stripped from the local power structures and given to the Whitehouse. The reason it was different before is because there was local authority. Parents had authority/ownership of their kids while today the federal government owns your children even before they are born. Yes there was a draft back then and when your kids turned 18 the government could own them, but parents had 18 years where they could raise their kids anyway they liked and be left alone.

Today the government decides everything. Parents basically just pay the bill but the government decides what your kids learn in school and what school they go to, what your kids see on TV, the government raises children now, yet we still blame parents for the actions of their children? I’m a libertarian because I believe in empowering parents, families, clans, communities, but not politicians and outsiders. I don’t like it when people I don’t even know or trust make decisions for me and my community, it’s these people and their decisions that destroy communities because they don’t understand the cultures and basically force their culture on everyone else even when it destroys communities that were previously thriving.

Reply
December 24, 2008

Scott

Phil, that was a good one about if the tape makes you sick you must convict. ) But don’t look for any convictions more than 6 months of house arrest. If that happens Tori will not have gotten justice.

Amy, Casey Anthony will be convicted of murder before there is a trial for those arrested for assaulting Victotia Lindsay. What the hell is the prosecution afraid of? Why are they allowing stall after stall? It’s ridiculous.

By the way I have invited the Topix poster Unknown to post her insight here as well.

Reply
December 24, 2008

gompertz

Scott, that should be interesting if Unkown posts here.

With some people playing the role of prosecutor and others being the defense team, maybe you and Unknown could be judge and moderator. You have certainly demonstrated the required wisdom and objectivity to be the judge and so has Unknown over on Topix. : ) : ) : )

Reply
December 24, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I will get back too you about the links you posted. Good to see libertarian socialism making so much sense, though a lot will depend on educating everyone on what it means for them.

Merry Christmas to all, Happy Holidays and Holiday Cheer!

Reply
December 24, 2008

Christina Garcia

So, we’ve lowered ourselves to making clever rhymes about the case? wow I think this needs to be sved for a case of say hmm murder like theAnthony case, or in a case of race.

Reply
December 24, 2008

Scott

Merry Christmas Christina! I hope you can escape all the pressure you are under for a day and have some fun with your little girl Kalina on Christmas! I hope she hasn’t been negatively affected by the case of those who were arrested for their roles in Tori’s assault. I also hope Mercades and your mother can have a nice Christmas too.

Reply
December 24, 2008

Scott

Gomp, I like the idea of my being a judge. Thanks for the compliment. But I’m afraid I might let the power go to my head so I will respectfully decline your judge offer and hope that Unknown takes it instead. )

Reply
December 24, 2008

Phil

Sorry Christina . Didn’t mean to offend they were calling me the prosecuter and I had a little fun with it and being a bit serious at the same time,
Merry Christmas

Reply
December 24, 2008

Phil

Gomp
Hope you are not serious about a mock trial I tend to be gullable at the best of times

Reply
December 24, 2008

gompertz

Phil, I was being allegorical. So does that count as serious or not serious? Or seriously satyrical? Is Lou Reed satyrical or serious? Or does he know the difference? Ask Sweet Jane. OMG I need more of that Ching Dao beer. I hope everyine out there is enjoying Christmas as much as I am.

Reply
December 25, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz:

“Maybe a conservative would overlook the corruption there and argue that it is better to support authority, no matter how corrupt, rather than risk anarchy. That is definitely not my position. I think the corruption should be investigated and these people removed from office.”

I agree with you on this. Massive corruption and greed is what I believe has landed in this country in a recession. So corruption should be investigated and their are a lot of people that should be removed from office. However, what would we do without a government at this point lol:)

Pretaining to this particular case I do not agree with the level of corruption. Was the sheriff wrong for releasing the tape. I am not sure. He must have known at the time he was not breaking any laws. So, without a law in place to back it up can he be removed from office. No. Making comments about it being animalistic behavior. It was in many peoples opinions. However, should he have remained silent. Maybe. Still no laws broken.

Since, I have nothing to go by except for his t.v. appearances, not many facts their. I still believe all 8 where involved. The two boys got off on lack of evidence. A lot of activities leading up to and after the beating making you go hm….
Cara Murphy was involved she was released so she could testify against the others. So, his statements about 8 being incorrect I believe were exactly correct.

Of course the one thing we can all agree on is that it was stated that all 8 participated in the beating. Did he mean all 8 beat her or all 8 participated for if it was the second he was correct.

Let me say again I don’t know the sheriff. I don’t know the level of corruption running rampant through this town. So, until further evidence is provided I find it difficult to comment on corruption.

I do feel the facts of this case stand on their own. Corruption did not cause this act. The tape if left in the hands of the girls would have been posted on the internet. If not by them by others they were showing it to. That fact has already been established. They had already put on a show with this tape, what like 30 minutes after the beating.

As for Christina’s law suit. I do not believe it is in her daughers or familys best interest. I say this because she states she is physically scared for her safety. Also, what she reported the officer did to Mercades. I also find it odd to say you don’t know what kind of mother you are messing with. However, than state your scared for future retaliation towards your daughter. Go after his job not money in a civil suit. This is where my doubts lie.

The money for bail would have had to been paid because one crime was definitely commited. Of course Dr. Phil paid for this. Also, another crime has brought about further charges. Which once again require bail money. Is this corruptions fault or the persons who commited the crime? I said the participation in one crime and alleged participant in another.

Very wordy I know. Staying on topic for what we are blogging about for a change :). So with no evidence being provided due to emails being deleted, police reports being “lost”, etc. What do you have to back up your claims of corruption? Just not sure? Do not believe me ignorant to corruption. However, do not take away my rights to question motives on both sides.

On a lighter note. Have a Merry Christmas. Try not to drink to much of that egg nog that makes you fuzzy headed. Hope you and yours are being blessed with Happy Holidays. Your blogging ‘friend’. Amy

Reply
December 25, 2008

gompertz

Phil, of course the prosecutor analogy was a reference to the positions we take whether in daily life or on a blog. Now, at an early stage of ego-formation one may play a role based on identification with what we see. So I might see a prosecutor in the courtroom and want to be a prosecutor. Or I could imagine myself a rock star or Bruce Lee. We emulate what we see and we think it’s cool.

Later on the roles we play are determined by our place in society, through the medium of language. That is why our role-playing in adult life is part of the symbolic dimension and not just the result of imitation of what we see.

I would say that whether we are serious about seeing ourselves as a prosecutor or a rock star would depend on whether this is something we just imagine because we find that role attractive, or whether that sort of identification is suggested to us by the role we actually play in daily life. One is based on the visual image, the other is based on the symbolic level of language.

Anyway my point was that different people have different reasons for posting here, and unless they are just messing around, those reasons will go back to not only how they see themselves but how others see them in the roles they play in the world. I’m not trying to psychoanalyze anyone. I do think that people should analyze their own motives.

Why do I take the positions I do? Who is watching me? What does it have to do with this case what position I take? Do I imagine that the victim is watching and cares what I write? Maybe on a subliminal level we are trying to help the victim we see on the tape by assuming a certain role here. Anyway that’s the kind of questions I ask myself.

Was I really drinking beer last night or just assuming a certain role to make a point? Not important, I am free to assume different roles. Only the people who are directly involved in this case are not free to choose their roles and for them the pressure is great.

I wish Christina and her family a Merry Christmas and I hope the New Year will bring better times and healing.

And let’s all remember the true meaning of Christmas.

Reply
December 25, 2008

gompertz

Amy,, as for myself, I’m not at all fuzzy-headed. Just feeling the magic feeling I always get at Christmas. Today I doubt I will be sending long messages, but a few short ones will be in order. Sometimes I make my points in an oblique way because they seem more effective, we will see.

Yet thereis a point about this case, a question I have that I don’t feel I should put out here but that you might or might not have some information about or a suggestion about how I might find out.

Amy whenever you get a chance I would appreciate if you would contact me at wgompertz@yahoo.com

Thanks and Merry Christmas

Reply
December 25, 2008

GregS

gompertz I think you are over analyzing. My purpose for posting here had nothing to do with the Victim. I don’t know her personally. I don’t treat this trial as a personal experience, and if I did then I wouldn’t be qualified to analyze it because I’d be biased.

I’m studying this trial. I’m posting my thoughts to log them and I’m learning from the others who post here. At this point I don’t think this trial will have any positive outcome. That is why it’s worth studying, it’s very much like studying a trainwreck. When you study a trainwreck you also learn how to prevent it.

Reply
December 25, 2008

GregS

That being said, to the people who have communicated with me, happy holidays.

Reply
December 25, 2008

gompertz

Greg, because your point of view here is based on reason and objectivity, there is no need to analyze. There are those for whom this case has some kind of personal significance (including me) even if we do not know the victim personally, and I think that is something that needs to be looked at. Perhaps some of us are victims of bullying ourselves. Some people relate to Victoria and ask “what if this were my daughter.” Reasons like this lead to a level of emotional involvement that can be counterproductive if we do not stop and reflect.

Your analogy of the train wreck seems appropriate, but beyond the wreck itself there are the survivors who need medical and psychological help, and that seems to be true here also. True, the legal aspect of the case will most likely not have a positive outcome, but the court’s decision will not be the last word.

I am not disagreeing with your observation, just saying that my views on this case are determined by my own personal experiences and I have to analyze my own motives for my own benefit.

I am still studying the articles on Libertarian Socialism and I am generally in agreement with these ideas. There is such a vast literature on the subject that I will not be able to do more than skim the surface. Like you I have learned much from the people I have communicated with here, and I have much more to learn.

Now, I just want to once again wish everyone Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Reply
December 25, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

Attention has faded from this case. You can see that just from the sparse amount of people still blogging here. Are we lonely and pathetic. No. I believe persistent and not willing to let it fall into the cracks.

Gompertz I hope you did not take my egg nog joke seriously. Just light for the season. Holidays are magical and stressful at the same time. So injecting some light heartedness now seems more than appropriate. It is towards each other and not towards the case.

We are all on here and truely can tell untruths if we see fit. Actually, anyone of us could be nothing like we betray. However, at this point and with this length of time I tend to believe everyones motives are genuine. Not one of us has waivered much since day one. Perhaps on certain issues but not our core believes. So, I myself will take you as you are and respect your comments because of this.

Gompertz quote:

“Your analogy of the train wreck seems appropriate, but beyond the wreck itself there are the survivors who need medical and psychological help, and that seems to be true here also. True, the legal aspect of the case will most likely not have a positive outcome, but the court&rsquos decision will not be the last word.”

I believe this pretty much sums up where this case has wound up. Even before sentencing is over the opportunity for anything postive to come from it is long gone. Unless of course Nancy Grace finds renewed interest after sentencing and hammers it home. Any benefit for consequences of this behavior has been wasted by a inept court system.

On a more serious note. I do love egg nog. Plain no liquor added. Forgot to get any this year. Now I have a craving. Anyone figured out how to hand things through the computer yet 🙂 Oh well techology not that far advanced yet.

Reply
December 25, 2008

Amyv

GregS-

I find you one of the most interesting people on this blog. You base a lot of your comment soley on preservation of a family and tribe. The natural instincts of self preservation and survival of the fittest.

This is well documented and has many undisputable aspects as being scientifically justifiable. However, human emotions do come in to play even with this theory.

You can easily come to the conclusion that I am the one driven by human emotion. However, these emotions and your scientific theories blend together to create what seperates us from animals of different species.

Eventhough, you state you have no emotion towards any of the girls in this case, emotions are involved. Your past experiences have molded you into the man you are today.

Although, I have experienced violence I was not brought up in an environment where it was to be dealt with on a daily basis. Someone commented on here a while ago that they thought I had been jumped. I never stated it and it never happened. However, from your statements I would assume you have been brought up where surviving on a daily basis was a necessity.

I could list many other facts however I tend to get to lengthy with my comments. The point I am trying to make is if we are all using past experience to come to conclusions about this case and the level of corruption is that not basically emotion based?

Reply
December 25, 2008

Amyv

Phil-

My comments to you always seem to be shorter because we agree on so many issues. Their is not a lot to say sometimes as I feel I would just be repeating statements you have already made.
In this blog I relate to you better than others.

We have all been holding a mock trial since this blog began. Commenting on the crime, factual events, punishment that should be imposed, etc.
So, I for one take no offense to this statement. This is not an intentional thing or even a harmful thing. It just is what it is.

If this truely were a trial we could all be placed in different roles with ease. Yes, it can easily be stated that we would be considered prosecutors. Persecutors no to lenient for that.

If a trial were to be held right now, these girls would not be afforded some of the benefits of a doubt we have all come to give them. As we have both stated before the tape speaks for itself.

Imagine however how angry you were the first time you saw the tape. If Victoria were put on the stand how that would effect you with her comments about being scared for her life. These girls sitting their pointing fingers at each other certainly would not sit well. Shows a lack of remorse and willingness to admit wrong doing.

So, with all of this being said, they would be lucky to have all of us here on the jury. We have tryed to reason aspects of every girls intentions. A true jury would not have the luxury of time for that one. So based on the facts alone I believe they would get much harsher punishments than what have been suggested here. The sheriffs actions would take second stage to the crime itself and it would stand alone.

As for your comment about the tape freedom of speech comes in to play. Yes, it was a twist on words so it was comical. However, It shows you a one liner in a horrible murder trial, helped to set free a killer. So once again I feel no apology necessary.

I will respectfully say this about Christina. No defense attorney would put her on the stand. Although, she has been entitled to a common courtesy here that is not the way it would work in a court of law. The prosecutors would have a field day with that one.

Merry Christmas Phil to you and your family.

Reply
December 25, 2008

Amyv

Electronica –

Short and brief. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you. I hope you truely have a wonderful Christmas. All happiness to your hearts desire.

G.N. Amy

Reply
December 25, 2008

gompertz

Amy-

It’s true about the dwindling numbers of people blogging here or showing interest in the case. Look at the millions that saw the video of the beating, and compare that to the few thousands who googled the GMA interview.. But these are the ones that count. It reminds me of the St. Crispin’s Day speech: “We few, we happy few…”

Personally I think every one here has a legitimate concern, however they choose to define it. And I don’t question anyone’s authenticity.

What I wonder about, though, is that after all this time of posting here it all seems to have come to a dead end, at least the sentiments expressed here indicate that. Certainly the legal conclusion is disappointing. Read over the entries from May and June, everyone is looking forward to that final pretrial hearing when the trial date would be set at last and all the truth would come out. All that waiting and anticipating have come to nothing. So I understand the sense of frustration.

Still I don’t think it is hopeless. Looking at Victoria on GMA she seems to be a charismatic young lady with good communication skills and the possibility of a brilliant future. And that’s not a bad thing for a young person with their life ahead of her. I have every expectation that she will overcome the effects of the horror she experienced and learn a lesson from it. I hope she also reads The Art of War by Sun Tzu and learns from it, but she has time for that.

For the others I hope they learn a lesson too. They shouldn’t feel like they got away with something because they avoid the sentence with the help of sleazy lawyers. Karma will get them and as it stands they don’t have a bright future even if they don’t do time.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

Gomp Says
Your analogy of the train wreck seems appropriate,
Apppropriate!
That was a great anlogy .

Reply
December 26, 2008

gompertz

Phil, yes, the train wreck is a great analogy. But are you:

a) a passenger on the train

b) an engineer investigating the wreck

c) a doctor attending to the wounded

d) a journalist reporting on it

Oh wait, don’t answer that.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

For all of the above, a,b,c,and d
It is still a train wreck .

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

To Amy
First of all Merry Christmas to you and your family.Hope it was a great one.i feel the same way its more important to comment longer to diifering opinions then those that so closeley matches our own.It is a real regret that I did not jump into the discussion earlier . .I think we are here for the same thing .We both still after all this time cannot watch those tapes without getting that real sick feeling in our stomachs. Then comes the anger and the outlet (for me ) is to seek revenge for what i have just watched .{This is what I feel everytime i have watched it .} The outrage against girls was like nothing i have ever seen .An aweful lot of people wanted to inflict real harm against these defandants .
The only thing that protected these people were the laws that they so calously ignored .How stiff of a penalty would these girls want to impose to insure there own safty against people who ignore these laws .Six months house arrest .I don’t think so.
Dwindleing interest in any thing like this is a normal occurance . If there were a trial that would all change.
I do not understand the D. A.
Not insisting for stronger retrubution.
I feel they are totally ignoring the courts will that they be charged as adults .
The reason i apoligised to Christina is not so much for wrighting it , I understand why she didn’t like the “Rhyme”. Its always a fine line between clever and insulting.

Reply
December 26, 2008

GregS

Amyv I’m not against all emotions. When emotions are rational they can be good. A lot of the time fear and love are rational instincts which enhance an individuals ability to survive. It’s emotions which act as the driver of all behavior including rationality. A man/woman defends and protects his family out of love, that is emotion. Just as a man might protect his.

It’s not a problem that you are driven by emotions, all people are driven by emotions, even I am.
The problem is when you make decisions and you give weight to gut instincts when deciding whether a decision is right/ethical or wrong/unethical. I only advocate that sometimes the right decision is the decision which goes against gut instinct and which feels wrong. Sometimes doing the right thing wont feel right at the time but when you look back at it then you’ll realize it was the right thing.

Yes I’ve been raised in an environment where it was very much survival of the fittest. There were gangs all around me, there were gangs at school, there were guns and knives being brought to school. I grew up around guns so as a result I’m not an individual who fears guns, and who promotes gun control, as I see it it’s better that I have the gun than my enemy have it. Gun control only would keep me from having a gun legally, but it doesn’t keep the bad guy from using his gun to try to bully me, and I’m not someone who is easily bullied, I’ll fight to the death literally to protect myself and what I perceive as mine. I suppose that self preservation instinct was developed by my environment, you might be right about that, but the instinct is the correct instinct for the time we live in and I wish more women had it.

A perfect example is that a lot of women are being victimized, raped and murdered by predators. I’m an individual who would rather give women guns and train them to use it. I believe in self preservation through force. Self preservation by any and all means, lethal or non lethal depending on the situation.
If a man is trying to rape a woman and she has a gun, she can put an end to it by putting an end to the rapist.

It might seem that because I’m used to seeing violence that I like violence. I hate unorganized violence and see it as a form of chaos or anarchy. I have the instinct to restore order. If I have a gun and I see a woman getting beat up or raped, the gun is a weapon I would use to prevent violence. But many people see guns are starting the violence and ultimately it depends on who carrys the gun. Violent people shouldn’t carry guns.

It’s not even just about guns Amyv. I use the gun as an analogy for any weapon you can design, make or find. Self preservation and self defense requires force. Don’t be afraid to use force to protect yourself and what you love, it’s always ethical to do so. And don’t limit the force, the only limit should be your imagination. The point is to win, not to look good or look like a nice person, but just to win and survive and that means the best weapon is the weapon which is guaranteed to get the job done and solve the problem/situation.

Some obvious facts about guns, guns are loud so everyone can hear them fire, guns are traceable by the bullets and gunpowder, and when a gun kills it’s an automatic homicide investigation. Guns will have you in prison for defending yourself and your family. The best weapons are the ones you design yourself and not all weapons are even physical.

Reply
December 26, 2008

gompertz

Greg, I don’t know if it’s NYC you are talking about but the description sure fits, as far as the level of violence, the gang activity and the availability of weapons, but the description fits. Trouble is, the silly anti-gun legislation provides for 3 years 6 mos. incarceration for possession of illegal firearms. It is hard to get a license to carry a gun, and there are also penalties involving other types of weapons. What about self-defense through martial arts? Well, you can be sued at the slightest suspicion of using “excessive force” tp defend yourself, even against a deadly attack. There have even been cases where muggers sued someone who used taekwondo in self-defense. Apparently the would-be mugger felt his rights had been violated because the taekwondo expert did not inform him ahead of time that the mugger’s intended victim had martial arts skills. This is where the “liberal” philosophies descended from people like Rousseau and Foucault have brought us, especially in placeslike NY known for the tolerance for crime. Many of my old friends have remedied the situation by moving to places with more reasonable laws, like Florida or Texas. If you can afford to do that, good for you. But that kind of solution won’t always work, and we seem to be running out of places to escape to, and the whole country begins to look more and more like an extension of NYC.

Of course criminals have no problem using illegal weapons, that part of their sentence will either run concurrently with whatever else they are charged with, or else will just be plea bargained away. The old slogan is true “If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.” As you say, violent people shouldn’t carry guns, but they do.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Scott

Amy, you brought up Cara Murphy in a recent post and said that charges against her were dropped so she could testify against the others and not because they didn’t have any evidence on her. That’s true. Cara has lucked out because of the 6 girls involved in Tori’s assault she did the least to Tori. Murphy’s charges were dropped because she is being used to testify against the others. But Cara along with April Cooper and Briitany Mayes lied to police at the beginning of the investigation when their I can only assume sworn statements were taken that they hadn’t seen Tori in a month. Remember that one? It’s amazing to me that you can lie to police like that and it not mean anything atleast in Murphy’s case. I would think that lying in a sworn statement is like lying under oath in a court of law. By the way I wonder how envious the other girls are that Cara got off scot free several months ago and they are still facing serious charges.

Reply
December 26, 2008

gompertz

Of course it is necessary to master “the art of fighting without fighting” to survive. Avoid eye contact and definitely don’t look like a lost tourist. Sometimes it helps to act crazy to discourage predators. The practice of deception has many forms. Reading The Art of War helps too.

As for the solutions of Libertarian Socialism, are they real solutions or merely the blueprint for a solution? The idea of municipal organizations being the seed of an effort to transform society has a long history, with advocates like Bakunin and later, Murray Bookchin. There are features of modern society that make me optimistic about success. The fragmentation of society into clans and special interest groups of various types is weakening the allegiance to the nation-state and increasing the appeal of grass-roots organizations. The environment movement, as explained by Bookchin, is a powerful rallying point. Also the various peoples’ movements around the world for democracy. Also, if you look at the American agrarian movements of the past, they were severely handicapped by their hostility to science, as were such movements elsewhere. Today these movements would be more receptive to science, and even illiterate peasants have the basic scientific knowledge of what microbes are and how they cause diseases and destroy crops.

Still it takes effort to educate people. The role of the theoretician is as great as ever, and the direction of the movement will be largely guided by theory. It takes knowledge and commitment to prevent the movement to transform society from becoming just another exercise in local politics.

It is recognized that there must be a rebirth of the concept of virtue as practiced by the Greek polis. This idea was advocated by people like Leo Strauss in the 60s. Unfortunately the idea of Greek virtue was taken to be the possession of a small group of elite followers, and Leo Strauss’s books were discussed together with Plato’s Republic and Aristotle’s Politics in little study groups that did not effect any transformation of society. Today the idea of virtue is put forth in a more vigorous form, with the idea that the whole movement of libertarian socialism must incorporate the values of the pols in opposition too the prevalent emphasis on security and affluence. The return to virtue as a value is seen as requiring a character-building process and that is good. “the values of humanism, community and public service must be consciously created,” and we need “not only education but a code of civic behavior and artistic culture.” So maybe this is the place where Greek culture needs to be supplemented with East Asian culture. What better way to create the conditions for virtue to flourish than the introduction of martial arts?

I am in sympathy with the idea of Libertarian Socialism, in fact I don’t see an alternative to taking that route, I only want to stress that it must be pursued with seriousness and not overlook the contribution of Eastern Philosophy to the creation of the new culture. Without that synthesis we are in danger of doing no more than repeating the old debates between Marx and Proudhon which will only be of interest to a few specialists.

Reply
December 26, 2008

gompertz

Scott, there is something about the whole Cara Murphy situation that doesn’t make sense. Going back to the original report from Deputy Newman, it says there that, according to Victoria, she was “struck by Cara Murphy who was holding a camcorder.” Just one of many points in Newman’s report that just seem to be at odds with the later (corrected) version. What is the status of that report? Did Victoria actually say this? Or did Newman just make it up? How do you just say Cara is released for lack of evidence when an official report makes her culpable? Apparently deputies can put anything they want on an official report.

And Cara was released so she can testify at the trial which will take place any day now. )

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

Scott
Why go through the trouble to not
charge Cara in exchange for testimony if you are using the added leverage for a six month house arrest plea deal . You can get that with out Cara’s testimony .She deserves something even if its probation.

Reply
December 26, 2008

GregS

gompertz I think the laws are designed to empower predators. It makes me suspicious as to the motives of the lawmakers, who’s side are they on? Is it far fetched to believe that some of the lawmakers make be predators themselves and making these laws to empower themselves? Very much like rapists creating laws to discourage women from reporting rape for example. In a fight there is no concept of excessive force. That is a really dumb law. That law was invented assuming all fights are 1 on 1 duels between two people who agree upon a time and place.

In an actual attack, your only concern during the attack is surviving the attack Nobody has the concept of excessive force except maybe a well trained martial artist who has been in hundreds of fights and who has done hundreds of hours of sparring. An individual like that could remain calm enough in a fight to know how to stop an attacker without using excessive force, but you put a woman in a situation where a man is strangling her and she doesn’t know whether he will strangle her to death or not, there is no excessive force. If she blows his brains out it’s self defense in my opinion. Replace the woman with a man, if the man is way bigger than you and he’s beating you to a pulp and he’s the one who knows martial arts, there is no excessive force. He’s bigger than you and a better more dangerous fighter than you, and unless you are Bruce Lee, you shouldn’t be held to such high moral standards. Even Bruce Lee would use excessive force on someone bigger than himself and his hands and feet were registered weapons.

I think the laws should favor victims, not aggressors. If someone hits you first and as a result they end up dead, THEY INITIATED THE VIOLENCE. This means they made a conscious decision to risk death to themselves to harm you. Nobody has the right to do that in my opinion so what rights are we defending here? The right to be an aggressive bully? The funny thing is, if this were internet bullying then suddenly society would want to outlaw all aggression, but when it’s in real life then the laws protect the aggressors? If someone puts your life at risk, there are no laws.

I wont be moving to Florida and Texas. It should be obvious why I wont. Those are death penalty states and while I don’t support gun control, I know those two states are corrupt and have the death penalty on top of that. So I can’t say the laws there are more reasonable.

And there are many ways to fight. You don’t have to fight anyone directly. The point I wanted to make to Amyv is that violence is necessary in nature. Violence is how we protect ourselves from predators.
If you are a non violent individual, you have to be protected by extreme violence. This means if you don’t like fighting, the more you hate fighting, the more weapons you’ll need, because the only way to not have to fight all the time is to have so many ways to threaten an enemy, and be so scary, that when you do have to fight you destroy the enemy so viciously that you make a statement. The more viciously you destroy your enemy the bigger the statement you make to anyone else who thinks like them.

If for example a man tries to rape you, and you blow his brains out and it’s known that this is what happened to the man who tried to rape you, you can be almost guaranteed that nobody will ever try it again.It’s very much like in prison, if you are a man and in prison and someone tries to rape you, and that person ends up dead somehow, it sends a strong message to everyone else in prison of what will happen should they try to victimize you. It sends the message that you’ll never be a victim, period.

I’m not advocating that we kill rapists, it’s illegal and will land you in prison. And I’m not advocating we kill muggers and people who do car jacking. But if a lot of those sorts of individuals end up dead, the result is that they’ll be less people who will be doing that sorta stuff. Even if a lot of those people end up in prison it means they’ll be less people doing that sorta stuff. The only problem I have is with individuals who want to do nothing at all, they don’t want to tell the cops or put these violent people in prison, but they also don’t want to actively do the bounty hunting job themselves. It’s not an option to simply do nothing. There are only two options on how people like that get handled in the end, either the cops will get them, or the streets will. And usually when the streets gets a person, they end up dead so the humane thing to do is to use laws.

Basically, if someone goes around robbing, raping and beating people up, what happens is word spreads that they are doing that. People who do that usually think that everyones afraid of them but what actually happens is word usually spreads to both the top gangsters who run the streets and the law enforcement, and whoever gets to them first is who deals with them. And you might ask why would gangsters rid their community of predators? Well picture yourself as a drug dealer and some guy is raping and murdering your customers. Well now he’s beginning to cost you money.

I myself am in favor of the law. I’m not a gangster. But when people rob and rape and victimize people it’s only a matter of time before they victimize a person who is related to a gangster, or the mob, or just some bigger bully. This is what I mean by the laws of nature and this is why I saw the laws of nature trump the laws of man. In war the laws of nature are all that apply, and in fighting the laws of nature are the laws of war. Whoever has the best army wins the war. Whoever has the best soldiers, weapons, tactics wins the fight. Usually this comes down to whoever has the most resources and connections but also whoever has the best fighting strategy, because if you make an enemy out of someone, if they are determined to get you, their entire network with all the connections and resources they have will put a bounty on you and somebody will get you, and thats with or without the law.

Amyv doesn’t need to worry about having to be a fighter. If anyone were to victimize her, if she knew the right people, what to say to those people, and had enough information on her enemy, payback would be very swift.There are plenty of people who would probably enjoy destroying whoever attacked her because they’d be ethical in doing it. Would it be legal ? Maybe and maybe not, but that would depend on who she tells and how she wants to handle it.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Scott

Gomp, it seems anything is possible with detectives reports. I don’t like saying that. Or it could just be because Tori had a concussion and post concussion syndrome she may not have had a crystal clear memory and Tori may have changed her report after her memory became crystal clear again.

Yeah Gomp the Tori trial is so close. April will have graduated high school by the time the trial takes place. And she’s only in the 10th grade. )

Phil, I agree that Cara deserves some punishment. But she’s going to skate and put the blame on the others with her testifying against the other girls. I wonder if these girls will ever hang out again. I doubt it.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Amyv

GregS –

I had to stop after reading your post before continuing to read on. I come of as a pacifist this is true. However, turn the other cheek not when it comes to defending myself or the ones I love. Especially and above all my daughter.

I am not against guns by any means. We already know that law to restricts rights to own a firearm are not going to help get guns away from criminals. They already do not live by the rules. So, making ourselves more vunerable by being law abiding citizens if guns were banned is defeating the original purpose.

Any one man, woman or child has the right to defend themselves when being attacked. This I have never disputed. Greg women in our society are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to crimes such as rape, domestic violence, etc. Although, their are a rare few women I have meet who I would never want to meet up with in a dark alley. 🙁

Since I am the female voice of the group I offer maybe a different outlook. I agree with you in certain situations you are forced to make decisions which do not go with you moral make up. Survival is an instinct that is basic biology.

Saying this I for one whould shot someone who tryed to rape or harm me. I have not been in this situation Thank God. However, studying cases were this has happened their is still the added agony of taking someone elses life that victims have to deal with. No matter how much abuse was inflicted upon them. We all know that most women will stop at nothing to save their child. That is a whole other level of self defense. Beyond any emotion I how ever know.

So, we are in full agreement about self defense. What I am looking for is in cases such as this how to make the deterent such that people commiting these crimes will think before commiting them. Plea deals will only further serve to show young people their will be little consequences for their actions. A Trial with appropriately harsh punishment should be publicaly announced to the media. It won’t stop bullying or violence but, if it stops one incident that is a start.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Amyv

GregS quote:

“I think the laws should favor victims, not aggressors. If someone hits you first and as a result they end up dead, THEY INITIATED THE VIOLENCE. This means they made a conscious decision to risk death to themselves to harm you. Nobody has the right to do that in my opinion so what rights are we defending here? The right to be an aggressive bully? The funny thing is, if this were internet bullying then suddenly society would want to outlaw all aggression, but when it&rsquos in real life then the laws protect the aggressors? If someone puts your life at risk, there are no laws.”

I have been extremely leary of approaching this subject. However, here it goes. Suppose Victoria Lindsay had a weapon to defend herself. Someone ended up dead. What should the charges of been then and against whom? Please let me add Greg I hope death as the result of a fight is the extreme exception and not a rule.

Some argue April’s punches were not meant to harm. I absolutely disagree. As, I am quite sure the victim who felt the force of these punches would agree. Would deadly force against April be justifiable. I know its a terrible scenario. However, one that should be considered. Would the victim herself have faced charges?

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

Amy Said
Some argue April&rsquos punches were not meant to harm. I absolutely disagree. As, I am quite sure the victim who felt the force of these punches would agree. Would deadly force against April be justifiable. I know its a terrible scenario. However, one that should be considered. Would the victim herself have faced charges?

i do not think deadly force would have been called for after April’s first attack ,as soon as Brit H and everybody else joined in in thier own unique way all bets were off . As soon as she felt in fear for her life She could have resonded as she wished .they were cowards if they thought there was a chance of an even break it wouldn’t have happened thats why there was 6 against 1

Reply
December 26, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

I agree with the Cara Murphy information. I think if Victoria had wanted to nail them all she would have said they all hit her and it was not all taped. She could have gotten away with this to.

This further gives me some insight to her character and more disbelief as to some of the comments that have been made about her personality. However, it is a medical fact concussions cause confussion. When her mind cleared after the incident she stated Mercades nor Cara hit her. Although, I don’t remember her every stating Cara hit her. Please point me in the direction of her affidavit to the police. I can’t seem to find much anymore.

Why they felt Cara should have charges dismissed I do not understand. Perhaps, if their ever is a trial, she may supply additional information about premeditated or not. Just a guess. She must have something additional to offer.

Lying in a written statement to the police is a crime. So if she did do this she should have been charged. Once again it all goes back to what additional information she has to offer. Should be very interesting.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

As always I agree. I will never be able to watch this tape without a complete disgust. Sorry, here is where my lack of being against violence ends. What a shock for all girls concerned if Victoria would have pulled out pepper spray.

Also, not directed at you. I can not keep going there with this case and all of this police corruption. It is just to much to swallow. Beating, torturing, emotional abuse, kidnapping, tampering with a witneess. That is enough to convict without every police officer on the force trying to coerce Victoria into lying.

Also, it was stated in an early blog that this is what was happening to Victoria Lindsay. That to me is bashing the victim because she is than being accused of being a liar. I have never once heard the Lindsay family state the actions of the police department or the sheriff were wrong. Please feel free to correct with facts if I am wrong.

Reply
December 26, 2008

Phil

To Amy
I do not understand the proscecution at all in this .You can see after Victoria’s GMA interview that the
sentiment is still with Victoria .No embellishment of the facts are nessacary .How they could be contemplating a slap on the wrist agreement for such a vicious assult is beyond my understanding.I am not so much against a plea agreement if it saves the victim the pain of reliving this in a trial format . But the proscecution has seemed to have lost the will to do thier duty.
Any “lying” seems to be on small details only and nothing that should stop any convictions were the state were actually interested in proscecuting this case .

Reply
December 27, 2008

Phil

I have always said that to much weght has aways been given to the small discrepencys that have arisen when the end result of thier actions are so ridicously clear.What more would any proscecuter need to get whatever terms they wanted .Why would the defense risk going to trial. The only exception where these discrepencys matter would be the kidnaping charge .This cannot be proven by the video and the seriousness of the charges reqire proof beyond a reasonable doubt. .Even so they would probally get a conviction agaist some of them on that charge as well .

Reply
December 27, 2008

GregS

Amyv, I don’t think deadly force was necessary in Victoria’s situation. If by defending herself however it did result in the death of one of the attackers, I wouldn’t put her in jail. The reason is that if you’ve ever been jumped, and I have, the fight or flight instinct takes over. If you are being jumped for the first time ever, by people you know hate your guts, you’d have a very good case for temporary insanity if I were on the jury. I don’t believe someone who is genuinely fearing for their lives can be blamed if they take someone elses life. I don’t know how certain situations will make another feel. But if I’m getting jumped on the street at night by 4-5 guys and I have a gun in my pocket, I’m going to use it on them instinctively. This is perhaps the reason not to walk around carrying a gun at all times, but the truth is when I get attacked I have the instinct to retaliate. I’m not a hateful person but when someone or something is harming me, my first instinct is to destroy that someone or something.

Amyv, I actually favor non-lethal weapons. The government is trying to ban non lethal weapons so you’ll have to make your own. Airguns can be designed to shoot rubber bullets. This is what the corrections officers use in prison and they’d work well to stop a rapist in his tracks. The gun control laws are a joke, what these laws do is they tell people like me to go ahead and make improvised weapons. Often these improvised weapons are harder to detect, silent, and stealthy, but just as dangerous. So gun control is not the same as weapon control, and you should remember that.

I’m in favor of non-lethal self defense because I don’t want to spend life in prison for defending myself or someone else. Just being arrested with possession of an illegal gun is a crime that would get me 10 years in prison. Guns are no longer useful as weapons because the law enforcement is focused on banning them, so the way around that is to use gun-like weapons which aren’t classified as guns and which don’t work like guns. Anything which shoots a projectile is gun-like. A dart gun is gun-like and depending on the design could effectively stop an attacker. The point of self defense is to survive an attack by any means, whether you do so legally or illegally doesn’t really matter.

I don’t think Victoria should have been carrying a gun. I hear her mother is in prison for self defense with a knife. The last thing we want is for Victoria to join her mother in prison. I don’t think a gun is even necessary because non lethal weapons can get the job done. The most extreme case is robbery and rape, in the case of rape I’d actually favor using a gun on them because I have personal disdain for rapists and I wouldn’t feel bad about killing a rapist. If a woman is walking home and some guy follows her home and breaks into her house and starts trying to rape her, if she doesn’t kill him then he should consider himself lucky and should hope the neighbors don’t kill him.

While I don’t support the death penalty, if someone were to rape a person I loved, I’d want to kill them, I’m human. The only thing to stop me from killing them would be fear of going to prison and fear of the consequences. Even rapists might have friends who would be willing to track me down and seek revenge. Instead of killing the rapist I’d keep them alive but probably bully them on a regular basis so their life is miserable. If they go to prison the whole prison will know they are a rapist before they arrive.

There are two kinds of men on these earth. The men who will defend women from attackers and the men who don’t care. Not all defending is about being the guy who arrests or directly stops an attacker, if you know about weapons, teach your girlfriend, or your female friends how to use it to defend themselves.

I’m not saying having a weapon will prevent all rape and violence against women, but I’d rather rapists fear women than women fear rapists. If rapist has to risk their life to do that which they are built to do, some of them will be too afraid to try it and thats the point.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Scott

Amy, it was in one of the police statements that Cara hit Tori.

And I agree with you about how Tori would have gotten away with saying anything she wanted. But she chose not to which tells me something good about her character.

Also Amy Cara Murphy was staying with April Cooper at the time of the attack on Tori and she may have inside knowledge as to what April and the other girls were up to as far as cornering and beating Tori goes. It was not just a coincidence that 6 girls who can’t stand Tori were waiting for her at Mercedes grandmother’s house on a Sunday night. I’m sure April let Cara in on some information as far as making Tori pay goes and I bet the prosecution is counting on that information if the case ever goes to trial.

Phil, I agree with you that the prosecition has droped the ball here. They hold all the cards because of the video and threatening emails to get Tori which the girls did. That is fact not fiction. But the prosecution has screwed up this case by letting Tori get slandered time and time again and by dragging this case out for so long with no trial or end in sight. The crimes against Tori are on video. This is not a complicated crime. The evidence against the girls is staggering and nothing Tori allegedly said about them warranted such vicious physical and emtoional attacks on Tori.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Phil

To Scott
It always comes down to the combination of the physical and the the manner they broke Victoria that
evening .Nothing is worse to watch then having someons spirit broken on camera for the enjoyment of those that did the deed.

Reply
December 27, 2008

gompertz

Scott, interesting that Cara was staying with AC. It’s so nice that Cara is ummmm…gettin on with her life y know ummmmmmmmmm

I remember seeing that original police report provided by LAO on Topix July 6. If what it says there really represents Victoria’s recollection of the incident 2 days after it happened, and if it turns out her recollection was inaccurate, wouldn’t it represent something more severe than memory lapse? I don’t know, I’m just asking.

Or it could be true that Cara participated in the beating and filming.But she will make it all right by testifying at the trial for the prosecution, for sure. )

Reply
December 27, 2008

Phil

To AmyV
With regaurds to Victoria asking for a ride to CV’ or whatever the store was .Can you imangine these people just beat the holy crap out of you .They have filmed it and you are going to ask them to drop you off . Are you kidding me. Can you think of any concievable ,logicall explanation why Victoria would want to get in a car with Mecades driving and Brit H and Brit M sitting behind you . No Way! under no circumstances would ,Victoria choose to remain in thier controll .Especially as she has stated that she thought she was going to die . I think she would have rather walked.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Electronica

sorry i dont have much time and theres lots new stuff to read here but amy happy holidays merry christmas to you too and everyone here too!

Reply
December 27, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

Thank you for the information that Cara Murphy was staying with April Cooper. I always wondered where she fit into the ‘circle’. As Gompertz stated so Hmmm… Could not have put if better myself.

I never had any doubt this was premeditated. Not for a second. This further confirms what has been obvious all along. I will speak now from a womans point of few.

You have six girls all at one house at one time. Some know each other better than others. However, they all have one common element they either dislike the victim themselves or they are hanging out with someone who does.

They all know without a doubt the victim is staying with her ‘good friend’ Mercades. Sorry if sarcastic I almost have to choke on that one. They are all their cameras ready hanging out. They talk. Believe me you get a group of girls together in this kind of setting and they are absolutely talking about this girl.

They all know what is being text to her on the phone. No doubt in my mind. They know she will be coming home soon. They know their is going to be a fight. period. All six of these girls knew. Cara is staying with April they talk before they even get their. Brittany Mayes well not much to comment on that one. Mercades wants her out and uses Brittini Hardcastle to help with this situation. Kayla hated her with a passion and it was over a boy. She needed someone do what she was physically unable to do. The stage was set. Victoria did not have a chance.

The ringleader hmmm. Wow that would be a hard one. They all actively participated. Any one with common sense could not ignore the overwhelming facts. Just when I thought you knew it all. You find more facts that are damning to the bullies.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

I can absolutely think of one logicalal reason for her to get in the car. Kidnapping. She was forced into that car. She stated so in her affidavit every girl in the car with her knew that.

Also, other girls knew as well. You think after all they had put her through they were going to leave without seeing the finish. Also, in her affidavit Victoria states, as does the friend who picked her up at CVS, a white van drove by. Coincidence the same car as the boys drive. Obsenities were shouted at her by both girls and boys from this van. So following behind the car Victoria was in a very feasible possibility.

Then they meet back at the boys house to watch the tape. The accused did not deny this. Kayle confirmed it. So all 8 were involved.

I am with you any little discrepancies on a police
report do not discredit the overwhelming evidence against these girls. Cara Murphy is definitely giving the police some kind of additional evidence. So the last two key questions were premeditation and kidnapping. My guess would be Cara Murphy is more than happy to provide testimony on both of these issues.

Still not understanding at all why this case has not gone to trial. However, here is another scenario for you. They all do get a slap on the wrist. What will these girls feelings be towards Cara? What willl Brittini Hardcastle feelings be towards all of them. Especially, Mercades and Kayla who basically turned on her.

So, please do not think I condone vigilante justice. However, I will go with some of Greg’s theories on how things are handled when not done properly by the police. Perhaps these girls will handle each other. If I were a few of these girls I would be praying for harsh punishment for some of the others. This is a very small town as has been stated before.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

Always good to hear from you. I just can’t doubt the overwhelming amount of evidence in this case.

Police corruption aside the crime was commited. The police did not beat her. They did not verbally torture her. They did not force her in the car. They all knew. None of them was like a deer in the headlights with this planned attack.

As for corruption in the police department and higher up in Florida wow. I think this case proves what I have stated all along. We continuously let violet criminals go with a slap on the wrist. It is like a revolving door with criminals down here. So, if we are saying police are to hard on criminals down here. I think it is time for me to move. Somewhere, were a crime can be commited and you don’t even bother with the arrest. Because we bring leniency to a whole new level.

GregS –

I am also against the death penalty. However, if you want to be a serial killer, move down here. Sure you will get the death penalty. You will also enjoy free housing, free meals and cable t.v. for the next 15 to 20 years. For that is a conservative estimate on how long it takes to carry out that sentence. Texas I do believe does not have this distinction.

Reply
December 27, 2008

Phil

To Amy
If they get a fair punishment then the
accused will have a better chance of
fitting back in to society .i am not even talking about phyiscal harm ‘
if i met any of these girls i don’t know that I wouldn’t let them know what i thought about thier actions and the slap on the wrist they got ..If all they get is 6 months house arrest I won’t have alot of sympathy it does follow them .

Reply
December 27, 2008

gompertz

Amy, it seems for every case of excessive punishment we hear about, there are hundreds more where the punishment is too lenient or nonexistent. Around June 2007 there was the savage attack on Rachel Kalfin by Rachel Alter. Someone videtaped it and posted it on Youtube, and it was shown on Bill Oreilly. The video showed the victim being beaten with brass knuckles, and she had a concussion and serious injuries. I read somewhere, I can’t remember where, that the punishment involved no jail time, just probation. There was little follow up and interest in the case faded. On the West Palm Beach wire there were only four comments posted about it. That is just one example of the way things have been going.

As for the present case, I think we have turned a corner. Maybe it did wake people up, even if interest seems to have died down. In many of the video blogs, there are still new comments being added all the time. The anger is still there and even though people can’t sustain the same intensity and they go on to other things, there will always be a lot of passion surrounding this case.

I think you are right about the girls turning against each other. They may get off easy as far as the courts, but if they keep trying to settle their differences the old-fashioned way, there may some interesting follow-ups.

Meanwhile, it looks like Victoria has the potential to move on. I watched the GMA interview once more, and I had this thought. If Victoria went for a job interview, she would get hired easily and be off to a great start in a career, just based on her appearance, her charm and personality, even if she decides not to go to college.

I think the public will see that Victoria’s way is the way to success, and many of those involved in the girl-fight video phenomenon will realize that Victoria is the real winner. The others will have to choose if they want to go Victoria’s way, or keep rolling around in the mud and be left behind. In The Art of War it says that the greatest warrior is the one who wins without fighting, and that statement has once again been proven to be true.

Reply
December 28, 2008

christina garcia

However, the police did release the video, further humiliating her, so I consider this a form of harm on thier part.

Reply
December 28, 2008

Amyv

Christina –

The tape was meant to hurt Victoria Lindsay. It had already hurt just because of the fact she knew she was being taped during the beating.
Then right after the girls already showed to any audience of two more people (the boys).

The fact is your daughter did know it was being taped. She did watch the tape with the 8. Kayla who stuck with Mercades about not lying to police was in possession of the tape. I would assume logically it was at your house since the police retrieved from your mother. (I have a lot of respect for her).

If it was not meant to be posted or shown to others, why not destroy. The tape was meant to be shown. Whether if be posted on you tube or taken to school for laughs. So, the tape was released just not to the audience the girls expected.

The 6 girls involved were humiliated. The intention to humiliate the victim back fired. So how can you blame the police? Their have been other violent tapes released to the media so it is legal.

She and all of the other girls can only blame themselves for that humiliation. I don’t think much was thought of humiliating the victim further at all. Sorry if this offends you. The blame lays with the ones who taped the beating in the first place.

This would also give Victoria more grounds for a civil suit against the 6. The intention was to further harm her. It just didn’t work out the way it was planned.

Reply
December 28, 2008

christina garcia

Mercades turned the tape over instead of destroying it, so that police would have thier evidence. And Mercades did not watch that video, because right after she went to get my mom from work she came here. Maybe the others watched but Mercades did not. The police again took advantage and showed the tape to the entire world : ( so sad they had no feelings for the victim, only an agenda for Grady Judd.

Reply
December 28, 2008

gompertz

As far as I know (and of course I may be wrong) the sheriff did not get permission from the victim or her family before releasing the video. I don’t know if that permission would have been give, but it certainly didn’t help Victoria to have it released to the whole world.

Now it seems the release of the video was not enough to prevent Victoria from being victimized again at the deposition, and it was not enough to force a trial, since prosecution has agreed to plea deals. What can we conclude from that?

I just can’t get over the feeling that the sheriff, SAO and the defense team are all serving no ones interests but their own.

Still we must not forget that the video has served an important purpose by drawing attention to the problem of teen violence and bullying. The video was meant to cause humiliation, and it has, for both Victoria and her attackers. No positive purpose has been served as afr as the legal outcome, it seems. Where the video can have a positive effect is if all of us are moved into action to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future. As Greg said, we can learn a lot from studying a train wreck if we use the right methods of study.

Reply
December 28, 2008

Scott

Well explained Amy. It’s hard to disagree with any of your points. And people forget that Schumaker drove by with Ashley, Cooper and Hassal in an SUV verbally assaulting Tori yet again as she sits crying, bleeding and undoubtedly shaking like a leaf in the CVS parking lot waiting to be picked up by a freind. What a coincidence? Not really.

Amy, you also picked up on how much Kayla hated Tori. Kayla said on her audio statement to the detective that she didn’t hate Tori. But all you had to do was to hear Kayla’s hate filled voice screaming at Tori to know otherwise.

I’m not sure which one of the six girls lied the most to police. Maybe it would be a tie. )

Reply
December 28, 2008

Garland

Hi, guys, how’s everything going? Did everyone enjoy their Christmas this year? Anyway, Amy does have a point of what she’s saying. But what I don’t get is why Kayla would be so hateful against Victoria? I do believe that it’s basically teenage stuff, but why? I also couldn’t believe that the charges against Schumaker were dropped, when he was also a part of this situation, too.

Reply
December 28, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

A voice of reason how nice. I went back to look at the original affidavits of Mercades, Kayla, Victoria and I believe the girls name was Christina (the one driving Victoria home).

Meracdes and Kayla’s original statements to the police were they drove Victoria home. Lie or more police corruption? We all know that it was Mercades, Hardcastle and Brittany Mayes. Good God what a ride to safety that must have been for Victoria. However, original statement by the two girls wanting to be honest with police turned out to be false on at least one account.

During Kayla’s interview with police she states in the car the girls were texting Victoria. Asking her when she was coming home. However, in their affidavits they both stated Victoria just pulled up and they didn’t know she was coming home. Two different versions by one of the girls who sided with telling police the truth.

If Mercades did give police the tape because they came to get it. It was not turned over by her or anyone else to the police department. So if they didn’t come? Who would have ended up with it?

Really is a tie between who lied the most. However, repeat again: taped, affidavits proven to be giving false information, beating occured, on tape recording Kayla says they were talking about their dislike for Victoria. Stated on tape Mercades was also talking about wanting her out. Proves theory a lot of conversation going on before the girl arrived that originally they stated they did not was coming. Hmmm…

Whether it was ethical, moral, legal for the sheriff to release the tape is easily disputable. However, any humiliation that was caused was due to the fact the crime was commited.

Therefore, no beating, no tape and noone would have to worry about the attackers feelings being hurt. Sorry, they didn’t care about the victims enough. Now, they are the ones who are complaining? The sheriff is to blame once again for the crime and the humiliation. I wonder if that is going to be a defense stradegy for these girls.

When the police go to a house to seize evidence that is not the same as voluntarily turning it in. Sorry, if that offends anyone. The tape was going to be shown if the police did not confiscate it. Oops: it already was.

As for Mercades not watching the tape with the others. Perhaps this might be taken up with Kayla Hassel as she stated on tape they ALL watched it.

Reply
December 28, 2008

Amyv

Sorry I misquoted when I said Mercades and Kayla said they drove Victoria home. They stated they gave her a ride to CVS.

Reply
December 28, 2008

Phil

Yeah but don’t forget guys they bought her a pepsi !
thats gota count for something
Right!

Reply
December 28, 2008

gompertz

Amy, you make a very strong case. I think the available evidence is clear that there was a lot of lying which is easy to see when so many people are telling different versions and they contradict each other. What about Schumaker changing his story several times?
I don’t remember the source, but I read that he and the other guy did follow in their own car when they took the victim to CVS. Such nice guys.

BTW I hate pepsi.

Reply
December 28, 2008

christina garcia

FALSE FALSE FALSE! Mercades called PCSO and they sent DEPT Torez to pick the tape up. I am not even going to get upset about this, because I know now that in order to show people how twisted and caught up in a web of lies Grady Judd has put himself and others in, I will have to prove our side any way I have to. PERIOD! I am not going to let any of this rest, my daughter and I have been mentally ran over while nobody else faced anything, therefore if I have to step on people to get where I need to be to prove the truth, then I guess thats what I will have to do. I was hoping I could talk to people and get people to realize things are not what they seemed, but I’m tired of talking. Its time for ACTION. Thanks Guys for listening.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Garland –

I will agree with you on the reasoning of the hatred of Victoria being typical ‘teenage stuff’. It was jealousy and it was over boys.

Kayla was screaming away at Victoria. Alhough. sometimes it was hard to hear everything, because of the peanut gallery screaming in the background. Kayla’s problem with Victoria was definitely over a boy. Not one that Victoria had dated lately but someone Kayla seemed to like now.

April made a few coments about Victoria ‘bad mouthing’ her. However, the key word to fight was a boys name. Elmer. That is the one name it took to get April swinging. Notice the “hit her” comments didn’t get a response until a button was pushed. Was it about bad mouthing no. A boy.

This was the theme that ran through the tape. Brittini Hardcastle made a great deal out of Victoria’s sex life and one boy in particular. Kayla jumped in with a venegance. The screaming was over a boy.

So another problem I have with their motives. Trash talking on myspace or jealousy over boys. Much more evidence to support the later.

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December 28, 2008

christina garcia

One more thingabout Steven Schumaker, what the report says is that he took his statement without recording, and then the stry was changed when he went on tape. Hello? I know you people are smarter than this….first why take a statement without recording? Secondly, Newman pressured him drilled him and thought he had him protted for the record, but once on tape Steveo showed him he couldn’t be forced into lieing to cover up poor boy’s reports. Too bad.

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December 28, 2008

Scott

Hi Garland. As far as Kayla goes I think she was very young at 15 during this assault and she lost control of her emotions which made her sound lile she hated Tori and wanted to see her get hurt.

Amy that lie about Mercades and Kayla driving Tori to CVS was a doozy.

By they way I really believe Kayla like all the girls there lost their composure during the assault of Tori. But the video doesn’t lie and after Tori was emotionally and verbally assaulted for a half hour Kayla was pleading with Tori to fight back. Why? You can hear the emotion in Kayla’s voice when she’s pleading for Tori to fight back. Thank God Tori kept her composure and didn’t fight back.

Do I really believe Kayla wanted to see Tori get laid out by Hardcastle? Yes, but only because she lost her composure during the assault. The normal thinking Kayla would not want to see Tori get laid out or knocked out. Kayla seems like a nice girl and has actually said she would apologize to Tori if she had the chance to. I hope she does apologize to Tori someday. It would be easier to forgive Kayla then. And I hope Hassall’s lawyer doesn’t take the low rode and look to slander Victoria like April Cooper’s lawyer has. It would also help if Kayla told the truth about the case from here on out because she is likely to receive the least amount of jail time of all the girls still facing charges.

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

Scott, good analysis. Once again we can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions. I listen to Kayla’s statement and I could interpret it in different ways. As you know I try to always adopt the most charitable interpretations, and sometimes I put out opinions that are less charitable. But I think I am being consistent in trying to stimulate discussion. Also, I hope not only Kayla but all of them apologize. I’ve said this before, the best kind of apology is for them to show they have learned a lesson and go on to live good lives after accepting their sentence.

I listen to the evidence, I like the way different views are being aired. I never deviate from the vieww hat some are more guilty than others. Also it is clear that not all are being truthful, with so many contradictions and I don’t think it is only the fault of the Deputy.

But now, I refer to something from Newman’s statement that pertains to Mercades. The statement that her BF broke off the relationship upon learning of her pregnancy is attributed to Mary Nichols, and I thought we all agreed that Mary Nichols has some credibility, right? A guy who would get a girl pregnant and then leave is a bad guy, that was true in the 1960s and it is still true today, even in our more “enlightened” times. Also it is stated that Mercades lost the baby. It doesn’t say she took the alternative of terminating the pregnancy, and while I fully support a woman’s right to choose, I think it is commendable that some women choose life. This is all public record, so I’m not giving away any secrets in saying this, we can all read it.

Let’s all remember that sometimes good people do very bad things, and I don’t deny the evidence that Mercades participated in a very bad act. But I believe her fundamental goodness will assert itself and she will live a good life in spite of what happened that awful day.

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

BTW we all know that April Cooper’s lawyer, Rohom Khonsari, was a prosecutor until recently? Nice thing to have on your resume. He sure prosecuted/persecuted Victoria at the deposition.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

In an earlier post myself and Gompertz discussed how one particular girl or another effected our perception of them. No doubt the tape angered everyone against all of these girls except of course Victoria.

The victim stated in her affidavit Kayla was one of the ones that hit her. So active involvement in beating. Even though not to the extent of April and Brittini. Since the victim I choose to believe above any other source stated it, I believe it.

The taped interview with Kayla was disturbing to me. She mentioned how tiny she was. How scared of Brittini H. she was. How she disliked the victim. How she was sorry and would tell Victoria so. Also, how angry she was about it being shown on t.v. and how unfair that was to her.

So undisputed this is on police tape. Kayla we know has already lied on her affidavit. She makes her involvement seem minimal. Understandable if you think you are going to get yourself out of trouble.

Her fear of Brittini H. was not shown on the video during the beating. She stepped right in the middle of them. No concern for Victoria during the most brutal part of the beating just a pure hatred to insult a girl who was already beaten and broken.

So, her size and concern for her own safety do not show up in the evidence. Did she mean for Victoria to get beaten to the ground. I don’t see any substancle evidence to the contrary. Victoria was already being pummeled by Brittini H.

The least involved of all the girls? I think heavily involved. I actually thought Cara Murphy was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Look how wrong I was. Something I thought I saw in her face before the judge.

So, against popular opinion, all of these girls were in this up to their necks. Which one to blame it on? Well enough evidence to say all 6.

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December 28, 2008

Scott

Christina’s back from her Christmas hiatus. Hey, if sheriff Judd and his cronies have made legal and ethical mistakes with this case maybe they don’t want a trial where their mistakes could be brought to light. Could the sheriff’s office be putting pressure on the prosecutiion to accept plea deals and avoid a trial and keep thier mistakes underground?

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Phil – Agree as always. As to who stated the drive by it was Victoria. Her affidavit states they drove by in a van and further insulted her while she was being dropped off. Adding further insult to injury.

So the boys innocent and corruption by the police. Well once again victims statement speaks of boys involvement. The girl who dropped Victoria off stated ‘boyfriends’ of the girls where outside the house. So evidence enough. I would think so. Lets not forget Kayla herself said they watched the tape over the boys house.

Of course this could also be just another one of those huge coincidences or police corruption that runs rampant in this case. Of course if this was all true. They were all coerced, even Victoria Lindsay herself, I have a question. Why would Victoria not have said they all hit her?
Why would she destinctly say Mercades and Cara Murphy did not hit her. She even went as far as to say she thought Cara Murphy looked sorry for her.

So if you are going along with the corrupt police department why would you tell the truth about that? As I stated before would they have not wanted to nail them all on the beating charges.
Just does not add up.

Scott – Sorry I meant to say I thought I saw something in Brittany Mayes. Wow.

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December 28, 2008

Scott

Amy I was not counting Cara because charges were dropped against her. As I said earlier Kayla lost her composure and wanted Tori to fight back when a clear minded Kayla would likely not want that.

Any the case is a mess and there is no end in sight and that is frustrating for those of us who are following it and those who are living it.

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

Amy, here is my problem. At some point Victoria states that neither Mercades nor Cara hit her. But on Deputy Newman’s original affidavit, it states clearly that, according to the victim, Cara hit her. So something doesn’t add up. Not many possibilities. One is that the victim lied, and that doesn’t make sense. Another possibility is that the deputy lied. The only other choice I can see is that Victoria’s recollection was so messed up because of the beating, that she simply had some sort of false memory. And therefore she could have stated truthfully, to the best of her recollection, that Cara hit her, though Cara did not.

Amy, I’m sure you know more about the subject of concussions than I do. The beating took place March 30. The deputy took Victoria’s statement on April 2. Could Victoria have simply been having false memories, or hallucinations or whatever, three days later? I don’t know, and I’m not trying to put you on the spot. Medical science can give various answers to a question and maybe what happened to Victoria can’t be definitely determined even with the best test equipment available. To my layman’s view, it must have been a pretty severe head injury if the victim could be so mistaken three days after the event. That would be simply terrible.

Maybe I am making too much out of what looks like an insignificant detail. But then again, I think it makes a difference if someone hit me or they didn’t. It isn’t difficult or ambiguous. I either get hit by this person or not. Very simple. It’s one of those simple little points that makes this case so weird and sometimes discouraging.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

I have to admit that I am way behind the 8 ball here. I was looking up a report I read somewhere that Victorias mother actually called the grandmother of Mercades asking for the tape of the beating. In this report Mrs. Lindsay stated that she was meet with resistance by Kayla about handing over the tape. Mercades grandmother intervened and got the tape.
When I find this information I will let you know.

What I did see, which stopped my search was what most of you have already been aware for months. However I watched this tape for the first time.

It was back when Mercades, Christina and the lawyer spoke to the media. This was after the judge had ruled on Mercades having house arrest restrictions lifted on some issues. Very important ones yes. She is able to go to church. She is able to get a job. Also good. Motion denied to go around to the media.

Like I said old news to some. New news to me. Not about the restrictions being lifted but about the things said on the news.

Without a doubt this lawyer accusing the victim of being a liar. He stated the video being released was a double edge sword. He stated it showed how the victim had told mistruths. He made remarks about how 8 not 6 but 8 had come to this point with Victora.

Right by his side were Christina and Mercades. Christina was nodding her head up and down in agreement with the comments he made about the victim. He was bashing the victim. Accusing her of lying, stating she had two black eyes and went back to work four days later. When asked by reporters if to much was being made of the tape Christina said yes.

So, someone please explain to me how April Cooper and others lawyers have dragged Christina and her family down with them. This lawyer was doing the exact same thing.

Christina – You stood beside him and nodded in agreement the whole time. Never once out of the five times I watched it, so that I was sure i wasn’t missing anything, did your mouth drop open. He told an untruth. He stated the victim was telling her story every five minutes on t.v. No way.

So, even though much has been made of mistakes made out of anger after the initial showing of the tape. The sentiment seems to be the same.

Gompertz – I believe you stated a plea bargain was taken. Please correct me if I am wrong. Was it fair. Lenient or to harsh.

Phil –

I agree with you over and over again. No profit should be made by anyone except the true victim in this case. She and her family have truly been victimized by the teenagers, their families, their lawyers and also by the public. Despite all of this I have seen nothing but the utmost class and restraint shown by Victoria Lindsay and her family. Perhaps that is the only justice they need. Head and shoulders above the rest in the respect department. As Gomp would say this will serve them well in the future.

For anyone who thinks I am being emotional or unfair to Christina feel free to watch the interview. If you see something I don’t I will be glad to apologize. It is not bashing just stating taped facts.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

If they all lost their composure they have had ample time to think about it and gain some back.
Therefore, continuing abuse of the victim in the court system shows this is still not under control.

If they made a HUGE mistake with Victoria. Thes should take their punishment. Not continue to try to discredit her character and blame her for the incident. This shows total lack of taking responsibility for their actions.

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

Amy, as far as I know the plea bargain is still being negotiated. I heard it was six months house arrest, nothing more. Of course that is much too lenient. No justice for the victim and the perpetrators will not have learned any lessons.

I think there has to be more to the plea bargain that we don’t know. If someone is offered six months house arrest for a crime that carries a potential of many years in prison, who in their right mind would hesitate to take that deal?

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December 28, 2008

Scott

Amy, I can only say most of the girls have shown a lack of responsibility when it comes to taking the blame and moving on. They seem to want to discredit Tori. As if that’s going to make the video go away. I truly hope there will be a trial so the prosecution can make the attackers squirn in court and on national television on Court TV. It’s like the defendants think because Tori allegedly trashed talked them and allegedly threatened to beat them up that gave them cart blanche to beat the hell out of her. Wrong.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Gompertz –

I can not say with certainty why the report initially stated Cara hit Victoria. However, since this statement was at sometime retracted I can not conclude that Victoria was lying.

Concussions or any brain injury are complex in nature. Their are several different stages or levels of concussions as you already know. Concussion does not always lead to a loss of consciousness.

Since Victoria stated she lost consciousness after the beating from April. I will conclude this is when her symptoms began.

Just a few signs and symptoms of even mild concussions are as follows:
headache, seeing stars, inability to concretrate, black eyes, inability to remember specific events prior to or following injury to the brian and blurred visions.

Even with the mildest forms of concussion memory lapses can last from a few moments to several weeks. The brain can require a few weeks to heal from the trauma. Therefore, persistent side effects can occur.

Since it has been stated that Victoria had indeed sustained a concussion this should be in her medical reports. Victoria’s stepmother stated in an interview that folow up brain scans would be required every couple months for an unspecified amount of time. This of course would be to insure no unforeseen damage has been done and the brain is healing. Also, Victoria did suffer from headaches after the assault.

So Victoria saying she lost consciousness when she may not have would logically result from a concussion. Lapses in memory three days after the event. Very plausible and medically indicated.
Retracting statement when events became clear or police corruption. Once again I will side with the victim. Commend her for doing so and continues to discredit accounts of her personality and a very indication of her outstanding character.

This is where I have a problem with actions with no or mild consequences. Intent to harm was obviously their. Logically April was the one who caused the concussion although Brittini H. threw more and harder punches. Any type of blow to the head from any one of these girls could have resulted in much worse. Did they intend to cause brain damage. I will give them this no. Intend to do harm yes.

This is why a blow of any sort from anyone of these girls could have caused irrepreable damage. She does have partial loss of vision in one eye. That is for life.

This is why I try to impress upon Electronica that this was a very serious incident. As any fight, jumping, etc. is. You can never assume to predict the outcome. What might be a fight one on one can lead to manslaughter charges.

It happened at a school only 30 minutes away from where I live. One boy threw one punch and the other boy died from severe head trauma.
How would you explain to the parents of that child that “I didn’t mean it to happen”. Even though I am sure this was not this teenagers intentions.

As for the six months house arrest. I can’t even begin to understand that. Perhaps so much attention was directed on the police departments alleged corruption that the act was lost in the process. This stradegy seems to work very well for criminals in our society.

If this is the plea bargain justice in no way has been served and GregS is right protect yourself and your own. It will be interesting to see how the law suit against the sheriff goes. I am still holding on by a thread that our legal system has one ounce of sense.

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December 28, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

If they do get six months house arrest carte blanche has been given. I to would like to see this go to trial and be televised. Then lets see if the lawyers will continue to attack the victim.

I wonder how many of these girls would take the stand. Everyone of them has lied in one way or another. The tape would be evidence enough for me. Also the victims testimony. If these girls got up there and tryed to explain their actions they are inexcusable. I doubt their lawyers would let them take the stand. Although, this would be an ideal time for them to tell their side of the story.

Since, this is what some of the girls have advocated for in court. Why not let them tell their side on the stand. Not on the public appearances that would let them profit. This way they could do what the judge denied them their right to do earlier. Perhaps, this is why they do not want to take a plea deal. They are sorry and they want to set the victims inconsistencys straight. I do believe that is what the lifting of restrictions on talking to the public was intended to do. Not my words. Once again its on tape.

I say go for it. Best case scenario.

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

Amy, thank you for the clarification. Victoria could have had some kind of false memory and for all we know will continue to suffer from any number of symptoms in the future. We can only hope for the best and keep offering our support.

I definitely agree with you and Greg about the need to protect yourself and your family. Greg and I have both commented on the value of martial arts. I think some people are discouraged from getting into martial arts because they think it takes some special aptitude. I think anyone can benefit from martial arts regardless of age or physical condition. It does take work and dedication but the effort pays off. As a child I was not very athletic and I ran away from fights. I remember the first time I listened to a lecture on martial arts. It was given by a local artist named Jerome Mackey. It was a revelation for me. He stressed the point that you don’t need to have a special gift for martial arts, just a willingness to work at it. The more effort you put in the greater the reward. The lesson was not lost on me and I learned enough self-defense skills to save me in a few difficult situations on the streets of NY, Let me repeat, I am not by nature inclined to athletics or possess great physical strength. Yet the skills I learned probably saved my life. I think it is worth considering.

Study of Chinese classics like the Art of War is also something that can be useful. Even Bruce Lee sometimes resorted to the “art of fighting without fighting.” The philosophical principles of Chinese philosophy are practical rather than theoretical and not difficult to learn, though there are subtleties there for those who want to look deeper. The psychology of the Art of War also apply to all sorts of conflict and competition, like in the business world.

Amy, I repeat these things not because I am trying to preach but because I think it can make a real difference in the lives of people like yourself and your family. Thanks again for your answer to my questions about Victoria.

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December 28, 2008

Phil

To Scott and Gomp
It may be true that kayla was in over her head a small fry swiming with the sharks so to speak…You could argue that she played a smaller part than the rest and i would agree .That being said she has not changed her M.O. sicnse this began .She hid behind BritH’s viloence to let her abuse Victoria in safty .Now she hides behind BrittH again this time pleading she was afraid .She cannot even take resonsibility for her smaller role in this.
I think its bad edicate to capitaize your word sort of like shouting but its more just to make a point
ALL THESE GIRLS WANT TO APOLIGIZE TO VICTORIA JUST NOT FOR WHAT THEY DID
.didn’t mean to offend but any apology that has these silly excuses attached just doesn’t mean anything .

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December 28, 2008

gompertz

Hey, who’s that yelling, I’m trying to sleep LOL

Here’s what I said: They should all apologize, but the best apology is not the verbal kind with all the tears that may or not be genuine. The best way they can atone for their evil deed is to accept their sentence and live better lives. It doesn’t matter much what they say. If they turn their lives around that will prove that they are truly sorry. Good intentions need to be shown by subsequent behavior.

It would help if they volunteered to pay the victim’s medical bills too.

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December 28, 2008

Phil

Hi Amy
In most trials the defandant does not take the stand .This usually makes it harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. .The defense can raise all the points it wants in cross examination of the states witness without putting an unsympatetic defandant on the stand.In regarde to Christinsa lawsuit .I ussualy don’t comment on it unless asked .If I take the lawsuit out of the equation than Its easier for Chistina and me to comment back and forth .To comment on the lawsuit is to comment on the motives of the people involved and that to me means persoal comments (Thats my choice).Christina does not have to like Victoria and if she believes what Mercades is telling her (and she is her mother) then she would have to believe Victoria is lying .Take the drive To CVS Mercades says that Victoria asked for a ride (Please see my post dec 27 )
Victoria says she was forced in .One of these girls is lying..For those who are still reading can you guess who i think it is .
My only concern with Christina is that while blogging here that she does not
bash Victoria . I will never support Christina’s lawsuit .and who knows Amy with all the communicatinn between Christina and this website you mayby called as a witness lol!
now that would be karma

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December 29, 2008

Scott

Amy, I doubt the girls who assaulted Tori have the guts to take the stand at the trial. They would be made to look terrible by the prosecution if the prosecution even wants this trial to take place. And I have my doubts about that.

Yes Phil it’s true that Kayla used Brittni as protection when she was screaming at Tori. By that time Kayla had lost her composure and was acting like the other girls. And I agree with you that the girls might want to apologize to Tori just not for what they did. Good point.

Well said Gomp about apologizing with actions and not just words and the girls living better lives. But that doesn’t seem to be the case here becaue it looks like they are having their lawyers build a case against Tori.

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December 29, 2008

Amyv

Phil –

I would respectfully decline to be a part of any jury in any of these cases. I would tell the truth. I already have preconceived ideas about this case. All they would have to do is took at this blog.

As for being called witness that could be said for all of us here. Now that would be a comical sight. Finally get to meet people in person we have talked to for months. I don’t think I could give them any “bombshell” evidence as Nancy Grace likes to say. Just state facts from the affidavits and the tape. Those speak for themsleves.

I bring up Christinia’s lawsuit as this is directly related to comments made about corruption in this police force. So it does pertian to this case for is being used as part of the defense.

Ha Phil you have a coke. I agree with Gompertz don’t like Pepsi :).

Scott – If they are truly sorry they will take their punishment. Afterwards they can try to put this behind them . With enough patience and model citizenship they will gain back the respect they have lost from so many.

However, as stated above April Cooper’s lawyer is not the only one using the ‘bash’ the victim tactic. Don’t hear anyting at all out of the Hardcastle camp. Perhaps this may serve her better than behavior shown by parents of some of the other girls and their lawyers.This is certinaly what I would do if my daughter were involved (God forbid).

I am just waiting for some of these adults to take charge of what I see as sinking the girls reputations even further. I don’t see that happening. I don’t believe that going on national t.v. and apologizing to the victim will help their cases.

However, if six months house arrest is what they get the writing is already on the wall. Of course this would also depend on how lenient the parents would be during this six months. That is if they truly feel they should be punished.

The civil suits against these girls will perhaps be a much harder pill to swallow. Some people only know punishment if you hit them in the pocket book. Victoria’s medical bills should be taken care of. No Doubt. This I feel willl be handled in court. No doubt. Are their plea deals in civil suits?

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December 29, 2008

Phil

They will not likley get my respect back,because hopefully they won’t be in the news again for me to even hear about them
unless they do some sort of public thing with victoria . If that were the case i would like to see it when they all become adults (hopefully law abiding).Some of these girls are still stuck in teenage aingst years. this and thier lawyers will get in the way of anything meaningful taking place

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December 29, 2008

Scott

Amy, I don’t think there are plea deals in civil suits. And I’m not sure Tori or her family have the stomach for a civil trial. But they should because Tori has been raked over the coals big time physically, emotionally and financially with medical bills piling up and those bills won’t just go away. And Tori will need medical exams and cranium x-rays for years and those who assaulted Tori should pay for those exams and not Tori or her parents.

By the way Amy there is no way we will ever be able to find out if those teens are truly sorry.

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December 29, 2008

Phil

The only remorse these girls have shown is the remorse of getting caught . They thought they had broken Victoria ,So sure they were in thier violence .They must have been shocked when the law became involved.The finger pointing at thier co-conspiriters shows the total lack of class and remorse and in the long will follow them like the crimes they have been charged with.

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December 29, 2008

Amyv

Scott -I agree with you. I do not think The Lindsay family will file law suits. When they are truly the most justified. I believe I read somewhere they have received donations along with well wishes from people around the country.

Since it was stated somewhere on this blog they are having financial difficulties. I truly hope this is not true. If they are having trouble paying their medical bills I would sincerely hope they reconsider civil actions. For they are truly the only ones that deserve monentary compensation for this crime.

A grave injustice would be done if house arrest was the sentence. To further add insult to injury in this case would be profit for anyone else. Only time will tell just have much victims rights are advocated.

Scott, so true about the level of remorse. When it is still being stated the girl must have done something to deserve this. I will repeat if their were any remorse or acceptance of blame tactics used in the court room would be stopped. So already off to a very bad start.

Some of these girls may truly be sorry. However, to much parental and lawyer involement to be able to tell. I really feel they will never be seen in a better light if some of the grown ups don’t back off.

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December 29, 2008

Scott

Well said Phil. I’m sure the girls were in shock at being arrested for assaulting Tori. And they have Mary Nichols to thank for that. She turned over the video to the police and that’s the only reason these girls ever got into any real trouble. If the beating went on for another 10 minutes then Tori would have been unconcious without a doubt. She took so much punishment and kept on standing in there taking more. It was incredible.

Amy, we can’t tell if the girls are really sorry because like you said of lawyer involvement and parent involvement.

And I’ve also heard the Lindsay’s are struggling financially. And Tori could suffer further damage to her head at any time so they really should be advised to file civil suits against her attackers if for no other reason than to protect Tori from possible major medical bills in the future that are related to her being assaulted and hit in the face and head over 100 times without ever trying to fight back Residual head problems are possible for Tori down the road and she needs to protected from the medical bills that would come from that. Tori’s lawyers should be every bit as vengeful as April Cooper’s lawyers are. But that’s not there style.

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December 29, 2008

Amyv

Scott and Phil –

Nothing has been mentioned on this blog about the friend who picked Victoria up at C.v.S. Unless I am missing information this girl and her family have remained anonymous.

If you listen to the 911 tape. The mother of Victorias friend asked Victoria who jumped her. Two names were mentioned by Victoria and relayed to the 911 operator. The 911 operator stated they could give that information to the police.

Before being stopped the two names mentioned on the phone were Brittini Hardcastle and Mercades Nichols. The mother of this friend clearly stated her daughter had had trouble with this girls. Her exact words were “These girls are kind of known as the toughies around town”. She also stated ” They tryed to run by daughter off of the road.” Not a harmless game of ‘chicken’.
Tryed to run her off the road.

Victoria can also be heard saying these girls asked her to come home. The mother than states she is a nurse. Victoria has a bloody mouth, loose tooth and a big knot over her eye. Then she states Victoria is not looking to good.

For the life of me I do not know how much more concrete evidence could have been provided for this case. These girls we know beat Victoria, tryed to run unknown girl off of the road, also in another trial still pending accused to trying to run Mercades ex-boyfriend off of the road.

So they were bullies. Seemed to get some kind of enjoyment out of it. So how do we come to the conclusion this wasn’t planned. They didn’t mean to ‘really hurt’ her. The sheriff’s office is corrupt, the ex-boyfriend is a liar, the victim made things up, etc.

These girls were looking for trouble with someone or could say anyone of somones. This was a lifestyle for them. Perhaps the only police corruption is wanting to get a bunch of bullies off the street before they caused anyone anymore serious harm. If this is considered corruption I will take it.

I can’t get over the nerve of them still wanting to blame Victoria. Of course as you can see, without a doubt, the bad mouthing of the next victim has begun. Before the first case is even over. Excuse after excuse. It would be very interesting why they felt it necessary to bully the girl who picked Victoria up. Maybe she said she wanted to beat them up and couldn’t back up her words. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

Although, I am sure if this girl decided to testify, as she should, their would be some character flaws in her as well. The defense of these girls never stop. It really is simple. They are bullies who had to keep stepping it up a notch to get their kicks. Doesn’t sit with me things got out of control. These girls had been out of control for sometime.

Well one trial still not started or plea bargains accepted. Two more trials to go. Coming up quickly on that one year mark. How quickly will CHristias trial take place? How quickly will the ex-boyfriends trial take place? This seems like it can drag on for years.

Gomp – Just can never agree with you on Christinas right to bash, without a shadow of a doubt, another victim. Setting up for the next trial is all I see. Never to early to start. I will give Jake the same courtesy and benefits that are extended without quesiton to Victoria.

Reply
December 29, 2008

Phil

You guys are being way to hard .
Didn.t i mention the pepsi they bought her .What about the cell phone thay finally let her use .My god they dropped her off after thier little get together .Come on Amy and Scott you guys obviously do not understand about friendship and being nice .
I’m sorry they didn,t buy Victoria a coke but i am sure they were doing what they thought was best
Right !

Reply
December 29, 2008

Phil

To Amy
All repeated sarcasim aside .Although sometimes sarcasm can make a point that 3 paragraphs of logic can’t.
Gregs said it best .this case is a trainwreck.No matter where you look there we are not seeing alot of deceny displayed.To the parents of these defendants I do not think you can be held accountable for the assult .Good parents can have kids that do bad things.You should be held resonsible for the manner your daughter’s lawyers have conducted
thier defense on your daughter behalf .To agrresivly go after Victoiria after what your daughters did is no less rehensible because it is done leaglly.Its just a continuation of the attack on Victoria’s Character to justify what your daughters did.The ecaxct same thing your daughters did .they also grilled Victoria on her Character to justify the beating .Nice lesson to teach your children.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Scott

Well thought out post Amy. It sure seems like there is a pattern of bullying from Hardcastle and Nichols. That is if you believe Tori’s friend Lisa Kelly’s mother on the 911 call. And I do and I’m sure most of you do as well. Those girls did seem to get a kick out of giving it to Tori. They relished it and that’s obvious from their reactions to the assault on the videos.

I really hope their is a trial so the defendants and their spineless lawyers can be exposed. I say they shoud accept their punishments and move on with life. But they don’t even want to accept any real punishment. They want to blame Tori. But reality says nothing Tori called them gives them the right to attack her and hold her captive. Oh and my the way they told Tori to hurry home that Sunday night because they needed her. Only Tori didn’t know it was as a punching bag.

Phil, the gameplan of the defesne is to attack Tori in order to make excuses for the girls who obviously attacked her and imprisoned her. It’s all on video and the girls really put on a show. But they are really going to get off with slaps on the wrist. I have no confidnece in the prosecution or the PCSO to give Tori the justice she needs so other victims don’t get put through such an insane and unecessary life changing crime.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Phil

Well said Scott.

Reply
December 30, 2008

christina garcia

I have come back here to eat crow, the offers my inside person told me about were way off, but here’s the thing I just can’t explain it all out here. I always come here and tell you all everything I know right? Ok, well now is the time that I am going to trust each and every one of you even those that don’t agrre with me to please only discuss how happy or mad you are about what the offer really is, but please don’t blow your top and discuss the details of what I tell you ok? Alright whoever wants to know what the offer was please email me at chrs8gar@aol.com but because of spam please just put a keyword in the subject title so I know its someone from here either Mercades or your screen name on here. I feel the offer is very unfair to the girls I’m sorry but this is how I feel. Also new info on Jake’s case as well.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Phil

to Christina
I have sent you my e-mail
please look for it
Phil

Reply
December 30, 2008

christina garcia

First of all, I said I dropped my jaw in court when he asked about the media. You failed to mention as well, that in that interview you speak of I mentioned an apoligy….hmm…isn’t that funny? Also, there are 6 girls with the same story what happened. And Mercades did not know the lady that called 911 nor her kid, for all you know that woman could be talking about BH and AC or anyone else, she never said ” hey, I know Mercades and she tried to run my kid off the road” please Amy get your facts straight and I will respect them, and with the latest on the ex case well, it just proves what I’ve said all along about that situation.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Amyv

Christina – Out of respect for the strained conversations we have had on this post, I will let other look at your site and see what the plea deals offer. I do not feel that I should go to your email site. That would be unfair of me.

Christina, what I stated about the telephone conversation was true. It was of course something I had heard before. However, I found it relevant to the prior intent to commit a crime.

I had never put it togehter about the specific names mentioned on the phone. However, Victoria could be heard starting the girls names in the background. She started with Mercades and B.H. The mother ony told the operator these two names before being told by the operator to save that information for the police. I willl listen to it again. If April Coopers name was mentioned I will post. Anyone of us here can listen and hear from themselves.

Christina not it realy was not meant to be funny about you wanting Mercades to apologize. I believe that was the intent for her being able to travel and explain her side of the story. That motioned was denied. If she wants to say she is sorry I believe as has been stated by several on this post. Actions speak louder than words.

You were standing by the lawyer when he was making accusations against the victim. You were shaking your head up and down in agreement. You did not say stop trying to blame the victim. That is a fact.

This I believe harms your daughter. I know you have a new lawyer now. However, this happened several months after the attack. Once again it is all on tape. Just because the lawyer was talking for you does not make you less responsible, by nodding in agreement. This does not back up “I will never bash the victim.”

These are not just scenarios these are things you can actually watch on tape. So I am getting my facts straight. Straight off a tape and tapes don’t lie.

As for all six of these girls telling the same story. Mercades and Kayla didn’t go along with the girls on their first set of lies. Affidavits reported untruths told both the two girls themselves. Their has by no means according to police reports, witness (girl driving Victoria), etc. a story that has been stuck to from the beginning.

As for Steveo sticking to his story. Let’s see the witness from the car stated their were boys their who went in the house when she dropped Victoria off. The boys rode by CVS with some of these girls in tow to further torture Victoria. They watched the tape. Coincidence hmmm… lucky timing all the way around perhaps?

I am not really concerned about earning your respect. Just getting the facts. Once again police reports, affidavits, witnesses affidavit, videos. So if these aren’t reliable enough sources I don’t really know what else you expect people to believe.

Everytime you are asked to produce factual information about police corruption the reports have been either lost or never filed. Although, you would have to have additional information you are unable to speak about for the case.

If most of the evidence has been destroyed
or covered up what kind of case could be made for a civil suit. If you are scared to death of a man. Scared for your daughters safety yet continue to put her through yet another trial, It just doesn’t make sense to me as a mother.

If you were advocating for his job state so more. Not just how you need money to cover lawyers costs. Which is more important? Protecting your family from extreme corruption that will stop at nothing including lewd acts against your daughter. If it is really that corrupt past history would show you will not win.

I am not being disrespectful. Nothing in my blog in any way assaulted your character. Just trying to make things add up. Not really sure what evidence has been presented against the next case. So for those of us who would be interested pease send us to a site that shows affidavits witnesses statements, etc. Not really helpful if it is just he said she said.

Thanks Amy.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Phil

To Amy
It dosen’t matter what angle you look at this case it looks bad for the defendants .you can pick and chose which evidence points to thier over all guilt .from the text . to the gathering of enemies(friends), to the tape and to the gathering to watch the tape.
I have not heard from anybody who watched that tape at the friends house stating that when the girls saw themselves doing this showed any kind of remorse. Bh wanted a copy . No matter what kayla says . she didn’t say no to the request..The remose was in getting caught .if they were not sorry for what they did after seeing it for themselves then any remorse is for thier own suffering and nothing to do with Victoia’s suffering.They are of course sorry for what they have put thier families through .not so sorry for wht thay did .How could they watch that tape and not see what everyone else saw even those who do not want harsh sentences agree on what we saw on this tape.How could they watch themselves and not say “Oh my God what have we just done!”. The fact that they did not speak even after seeing on tape what they did speaks for thier character and just adds to the debt to be paid. I did contact Christina and I will not comment on the specifics . The information I was given was not enough for me to understand what was actually being offered , without any specifics as far punishments go so until i see that Its hard to give any opinions.This in no way means that Christina was not forthcoming in my requst for information.If you were to trust what i feel.I haven,t heard any thing that has me drasticly changing my opinion of a plea deal with these defendants..the state should be trying to get a strong sentence attached to these girls .the proof is overwhelming and the proscecuter should start acting like he has all the cards.

Reply
December 30, 2008

Scott

Amy, I can only hope the prosecution is as good in making a case against the defendants as you are.

Phil, the prosecutors do hold all the cards. But they seem to be afraid of something. Is it Christina’s lawsuit against sheriff Judd? Do they fear bad pubicity if there are instances of the PCSO breaking the law being made public? There is no reason for this case to have gone nowhere in 10 months since the crimes were caught on video and the police have the video and the statements by all involved.

I sent you an email Christina.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Phil

To Amy
you can have the lead chair.
Your post have been great .The fact that some here who certainly have my respect commenting at different times how you and i are doing a good job as proscecuters tell me how easy this would be to proscecute if the will were there ..The defense can’t take a chance of putting the defendants on the stand and flimsy excuses would get battered more than discrepencies in statements .I also think the judge has to get controll over both the defense and state .There is obviously dispute over the plea deal. Setting a trial date in the near future would forces the defandants to either accept responsibility or have the responsibility imposed by the courts.
I think a judgement by judge and jury would serve justice better than a plea deal. I would love to see its “just 2 black eyes defense” argued in court .That would would be a disaster for the defense because it is not even close to the enormity of what has happened .If a plea deal can save Victoria futher suffering and yet deal appropriatly with the crimes committed i would support that .This is highly unlikly because those involved are always pointing thier guilty fingers at some one else,and do not seem to be ready to accept the guilt of thier own actions as well as thier group effort.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Phil

To Scott
The lawsuit can’t really have much to do with the delays .It is just hard for me to believe that the feelings of the sherrif of Polk County matters to the FSO .Nothing would ever get proscecuted if lawsuits by defendants and thier families mattered.The fact that these attornys all know one another is more probable or the state or the defandants has not got terms that are acceptable. I do not think BritH would get offered something less if Christina dropped the lawsuit. If Mercades re-arrest and high bail had anything to so with Judd then the state is not afraid of the lawsuit.If it dosen’t then they are even less afraid of the lawsuit. if it was a class action suit with all the defendants and thier families attached to the lawsuit instead of just Christina than mayby this would have an effect on the proscecution.As it stands Christina stands alone and unless the other families come on board .The lawsuit should not effect proscecutions case.Also if the other families do not come on board with the lawsuit Christina will not get a favourable ruiling.

Reply
December 31, 2008

christina garcia

I have sent a select few a small part of evidence. After reading posts made I regret sending one but its ok. And Phil I’m sorry you didn’t understand my email, does anyone else here have a problem understanding what I sent? If so, I’ll try explaining again. And Phil, its okay you don’t think I’ll have favor in the court room , because of the fact I have way more facts then you do, it allows me to feel more confident as I know my lawsuit is just. Thanks again.

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December 31, 2008

Phil

To Christina
thanks again for the response .I hope
the one you regret sending was not one of mine.Its not so much the understanding of what was sent . unless i have a clear understanding of actuall punishments the legal terms do not help me form an opinion on what i think is fair ,harsh or linient..As far as the lawsuit goes knowledge is indeed power and if you have info i do not than I will say as always my arguments can only be based on the conclusions i reach with the info i have..
Happy New year

Reply
December 31, 2008

Amyv

Phil – I agree with you that the sheriff’s alleged corruption holds no bearing on what should be a justifiable punishment in this case. I also agree that a system that seems to be so incredibly corrupt that they have made reports disappear would fear the civil suit. If these officers hold so much power in this community, I don’t think they would fear the suit at all. I believe I read in the ledger that Sheriff Judd is not concerned about it. I will have to check back on that. Also, agree without additional families coming on board not much will come of this. However, only time will tell.

If my daughter were one of the accused I would certainly stand by her. That is called protecting and loving your child. However, I would definitely not let a lawyer use the victims character or corruption as any kind of defense. If this every does go before a jury, although it seems doubtful, these could be two of the most harmful things you could do.

If the parents are allowing these lawyers to use these tactics what are these girls learning at home? Nothing. You learn by example. So stating the victim told untruths about the beating Would be a devastating defense during a trial. The tape, the affidavits, the witnesses. Pretty much all favor the victims accounts 100%. Despite small discrepancys that can easilly be explained away by the concussion.

I believe their was ample evidence (i guess just common sense wise) to know these boys were involved. However, they did not have enough concrete evidence to charge them. It is to bad the tape at the gas station they claimed to have gone to was taped over. This would have proven or disproven whether they were lying about where they were when the assault occured.

Victoria has never waiverd on her statement that the girls lured her home. The girl who drove her their that day said they were texting her asking when she would be home.

Honestly, I do not understand and never will why a case with such overwhelming evidence has taken so long. We can go on and on about the facts. Some may call for speculation. However, enough are concrete evidence for the prosecution to be able to nail this one. You would think in a high profile case like this it would be a prosecutors dream to have so many undisputable facts.

I don’t really think it is unique however the length of time this case is taking. The judge needs to set a date. period. No more pretrials. No more extensions (if their every were any).
Set a date and be over with it. This is another huge problem with our court system.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Scott

Phil and Amy, it’s so true that the alleged improprieties by the PCSO should have nothing to do with the prosecutions case. Tori needs justice served on her behalf and I don’t think she will get justice and that’s infuriating.

Christina, thanks for the emails. It seems like the PCSO has some issues to deal with and if you can ever prove some of your allegations you will have slayed the seemingly unslayable. But that remains to be seen.

Happy new year! 🙂

Reply
December 31, 2008

Phil

To Amy ‘
a very happy New year to you and all you loveIt has been a pleasure to somewhat get to know you through posting our opinions . I will say a special prayer for your father as i remember mine this New year.
Again going to my earlier post .I would like to know what the girls comments were as they watched the video right afterwards . There were certainly witnesses who would have been able to say if any remorse was shown . And if there was any you think it would have been mentioned ,But every one is staying quiet .why is this .They would have talked not ony about what they did but also why they did it and how they felt about it.
Kayla saying she would have opened the door for Victoria if she hadn’t been so afraid is such a joke . Mercades being to afraid to stop friends she invited in is just as ridiculos .. It is hard for me to show compassion for the defandant when at every turn when given the opurtunity they have deflected thier blame . I would rather hear I don’t understand why i did this or didn’t do this as to expext anyone to believe I was afraid when the evidence proves other wise.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Scott

I agree with you Phil that it was weak fore some of the girls to say they were too afraid of Brittini Hardcastle thier friend to even consider helping Tori. If Brittini and April worked Tori over for another 5 or 10 minutes who knows what the damage would have been. It’s clear none of the girls were going to jump in at any point to save Tori and that’s sad.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Phil

thanks Scott
Happy New Year

Reply
December 31, 2008

Amyv

Phil –
Thank you for the prays for my father. He starts another round of chemo this week. I hope he does not have as much pain this time. Although, they are now controlling that better instead of just saying give him an aspirin. Keeping his spirits up are the most important thing to me right now. We will get some lab work this week to see how well he is tolerating all of this.

I wish you and your family all the best. Not just during the season but continuing through the New Year. New Years bring a sense of new hope.

It is truly a shame that this case was not settled sooner. Going into 2010 with this still hanging over everyones head has got to be discouraging to say the least.

We will never know what the girls or boys comments were while watching this tape. I doubt I would even want to know. I sure don’t think it would be anything redeeming for this characters. I heard enough sickening comments on the first one. Watching it right after the beating and wanting a copy speaks volumes to me.

Since no plea deals have been accepted perhaps, this will go before a jury. At some point doesn’t the prosecutor say o.k. Plea deals are not being accepted so lets let a jury decide.The prosecutor really has nothing to lose in this case. You would be hard pressed to find another case with so much physical evidence and the defendants taping their own crime. I just don’t know exactly how the court systems work. This isn’t a game of chess.

Once again Happy New Year.

Reply
December 31, 2008

Amyv

Scott –

I agree with you completely. Their was absoltely no way of looking at this and seeing fear from anyone but Victoria. I can not imagine how she felt when all of this was happening to hear. I have no doubt she was in fear for her life.

I think you said it best truly sad. I have never doubted this was planned. So why would they come to her defense since they all wanted this revenge? Its just hard to comprehend that no ONE of them said ha this is going way to far. Kind of just speaks for itself.

I think the prosecutor has really dropped the ball on this one. Still their is hope that a slap on the wirst will not be sufficent for him in this case.

However, even if these girls do plea down to six months house arrest the criminal records will follow them. So life wil not be easy for them for quite a long time after all is said and done.

I am sure by now many of these girls have quite a bit of hatred for their fellow conspirators. This would be a concern to them if even the most heavily involved get a light punishment. What would happen if they ran into each other on the street. I am sure that “Sorry I had to point the finger at you” would not go over well with some of the defendants either. So certinaly fear would be a factor in that regard for some of these girls.
I would imagine their would be no love loss between certain family members either. No matter what happens it is to late to rectify that one.

Happy New Year to you and your family.

Reply
January 1, 2009

gompertz

Amy, Phil, and Scott-

I wish you all a Happy New Year. Let’s hope it is better than the past year.

Catching up on reading the recent posts, I see nothing is moving toward reconciliation. Antagonisms seem to be growing and now the defendants may be pitted against each other in lawsuits. Plea deals seem less likely, and whatever the legal conclusion (if there is a conclusion) will not bring healing. The atrocity that took place in Lakeland has opened a wound that will continue to fester long after the courts have pronounced their judgment.

For Victoria there will be no final justice in court no matter what happens. Her medical condition may improve, but could leave some sort of diminished capacity. Psychologically it is a different story, because there is no question that her life has been changed decisively. The video remains in cyberspace forever, and she will always be faced with the possibility of someone recognizing her and recalling her humiliation.

The only solution is the kind of transformation of consciousness that comes from turning to spirituality. I don’t mean taking comfort in the kind of religious view that deadens the pain. The right kind of spiritual practice confronts us with the need to look more deeply at reality, and our place in the cosmos. Hopefully the people around her now will encourage her to that kind of practice. It could be Christian, or Zen, or Taoist, or all of the above, because their essence is one.

But here is the problem. Anyone who thinks it is a light matter to introduce spirituality into the picture, or that it is “off topic” is missing the point. Whoever has undergone the kind of traumatic experience that Victoria has, will be changed by it forever. She is confronted with a choice: either profit from the experience and embrace the need to change, or retreat into the comfort of empty sociability and superficial amusements. There is no other choice, no return to the joys of childhood. That is why she needs as much support as she can get, from friends, relatives, and even from those like ourselves who, even though we are strangers to her, might help to make a difference with our support.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Phil

Gomp Says

“But here is the problem. Anyone who thinks it is a light matter to introduce spirituality into the picture, or that it is &ldquooff topic&rdquo is missing the point.”

Missing the point are you kidding this is the point!If the defendants had it this never would of happened
this is exatley what has been missing from the very beginning.If and when these defendants get this they will take responsobility for what they did regardless of sentence
. Spirituality. will arm the defendants with the tools to be able to move forward. to hold your head up high , To be able to explain to thier own daughter what happened.and the most important thing is to be able to eventually forgive themselves. Of course we are both talking real spirituality.Not the sentence saving time reducing crap we have been hearing.
With Victoria .i hope it will be easier.The teens that hate her will become adults .Those hatreds will disappear with time.Is there anyone of us that still has hatred for those we knew as teenagers. Although there is the embarrasment of the video. Fewer 17 year olds have the support or admiration and affection outside of Lakeland that Victoria has. If she also finds “spirituality” then this can turn this tradgedy into something else.I truly hope she makes wiser choices .So Gomp welcome back and Happy New Year .because
spiritualiy is always needed ,even if it is here on this fourm.

Reply
January 1, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

I agree with the need for spirituality. I have consistently pushed this theme and I know that the people here are together on this. I believe it is true on Topix for the people who regularly post there, though not for those who pop up occasionally to smear the victim. I agree that spirituality was sorely missing for those who perpetrated this deed.
Yet I cannot help but wonder if they will truly outgrow their teenage animosities so easily. If they had no spiritual compass then, where would they get it later? It is possible that, as they grow to adulthood, they will become more discreet without becoming more compassionate and will continue to inflict pain in less overt ways.

Interesting that you ask whether we still hate those we hated as teenagers. In my own case, I have to say, absolutely, I do. Most childhood rivalries and jealousies fade over time, but some do not. It depends on nature of the hostility, and on the factor of betrayal. That is something I am familiar with, and I don’t think I’m the only one. W hat about the 17-year-old girl, abandoned by her boyfriend (he was my college roommate) when she became pregnant? I wonder where she is today, and if that pain of 40 years ago has ever gone away? Maybe she has learned to cope with it but I doubt whether she ever learned to trust completely again. I wonder the same about Victoria. She was not only abandoned but brutally beaten at the same time. With all we hear about her great social life and continued defiance of the conventions of what some would consider acceptable, that looks to me like a form of denial. I hope I’m wrong. But consider the fact that, after achieving academic excellence, she doesn’t seem to be going to college, as she probably would have been by now. And remember the GMA interview? She looked good, she spoke articulately, but the event is still with her very much. It changed her in ways she herself cannot fully understand yet. It is urgent that those around her, friends and family, offer support and guidance.

I can imagine that if Victoria were to read these words I have just written she might laugh and think me foolish. So be it. I can even imagine that if someone handed her a copy of The Brothers Karamazov and recommend she read it, she might use the book as a doorstop. But we are not always the best judge of our own internal condition, especially when we are young. Especially when reality has dealt us a heavy blow and we only want to look away from ourselves and our pain and enjoy the party. All the more reason for those around her to provide the right kind of direction.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
Lakeland is a small place and the world is a big place .If Victoria stays in Lakeland or Mulberry.(Don’t really know the area) even in spirit,then this will haunt her more than it should. as she moves further away even if its Tampa or Orlando , Miami .People who recognise her would be in the most part supportive and helpful . if she can only realise what a blessing this could be.I believe (don’t know) that as soon as Victoria moved away she started to improved .. The exact oppisite will happen with the defendants .The further they move from the area the less support and more condemation they will recieve (mayby a life sentence in itself)The ones who did this are the ones to most worry about ,If they cannot release thier hate they cannot realises thier true role in this and will always go through life looking over thier shoulder or thinking thier friends will betray them..Or they just don’t care and we all no what a life of just not caring brings .this is truly an empty existence. . I know the day my son was born was a day of revelations for me .The way i saw everything past and present shifted.. Who knows if and when it will happen for the six that were in the room. But if i know anything is that it matters greatly that these 6 finds it in themselves to face what they were even if it was just for that day..How will BritH explain to her daughter what she did .Much easier to do if you have faced your demons and to some extent accepted and conqured them.This event will always matter to those involved .If Victoria sees herself as a victim of betrayal as the focal point of what she is then it will take much longer to heal.If she sees herself as AmyV ,Gomp Scott and Phil and countless others sees her . A very brave person who in a crises showed the finest of character then the sky is the limit.this does not have to be the defining point in Victoria’s
life for her to be happy. i think it has to be the defining point for the other six in the rm .These 6 have the much tougher road. As they should have for what they have done.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Phil

P.S.
again Scott would have summed all that up in 2 paragraphs tops.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Amyv

Gompertz – Happy New Year to you and your loved ones. I believe what you and Phil have stated is really the core issue of this topix. Finding a spiritual compass is what is sorely needed among youths today. Some might say this is trying to cram certain ideologies down there throat. However, some sort of moral compass at least is required to turn their lives around.

For those of off us who do have spiritual compass that guides us through life this case was truly shocking. Perhaps, that is where GregS was right and I was wrong. What I believed to be human nature is actually spirituality and not every one has that.

Some kind of guidance is needed for peope to be able to choice between right and wrong actions. The programs for at risk teens (atheletic, arts, etc.) have been proven to be a turning point in some young peoples lives.

Since we can never change what has already happened, finding solutions to prevent further violence is what we are all really advocating for here. Perhaps, volunteering or donating to organizations that offer alternatives to ‘hanging out on the streets’ are a good start.

I am not fooled into thinking this alone is the answer. For some individuals violence will always be second nature. Their is not always a cure for everyone. However, if everyone could help just one would that not at least be a good place to start?

Thank you for your continued thoughts and prays for my father. This truly helps me cope with the hardships that are not avoidable in live.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Garland

Happy New Year’s Day to everyone here! I truly agree with every post posted so far yesterday about this situation. I do hope that things have gotten better for Victoria so far.

Reply
January 1, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

Such an excellent observation that Ms Hardcastle would have to come to terms with what she did to explain it to her children. Imagine her child coming across that video while surfing the Net and saying, “Mommy, is that YOU? Why did you do that to the lady?” It would take a real change of heart to help her understand, so that she might explain it her child. Or would she answer, “The lady had it coming, she did it to herself.” Let us hope not.

As for Victoria, it is certainly better that she is enjoying a good social life rather than cowering in her room. And it seems like she wants to forget. Who can blame her for that? I only hope that some of her new friends offer her more enriching possibilities than the same old social scene. For instance, the possibility of continuing her education and realizing her potential.

I did read somewhere once that she was thinking of studying medicine. On the other hand I also read that she had joined the navy………hmmmmmm…..

The one thing that is certain is that Victoria has the intelligence and charisma to succeed in many different fields if she wants to. As for the perpetrators, I think that ultimately for them, too, their future is in their own hands.

Reply
January 1, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Happy New Year. I to am unable to do what Scott does. Make a point in a couple of statements. It takes me five paragraphs to do that 🙂

I find it hard to respond to you sometimes because so many of our feelings mirror each other. This obviously was a huge turning point in all of these teenagers lives. I want to include the two boys in this statement as I feel they were aware of what was going on. So what did they learn?

I hope that anyone who sees this tape whether from the beginning or sometime in the future sees it for what it truly is. Not a way to look tough or teach someone a ‘lesson’. I hope it is viewed for what it is. Bullying at its worst.

I believe you are right about Victoria moving on. How sad she would be the one who would have to leave. Judging from the lack of remorse from the girls and family members however this town may not be a place to thrive in anyway. So anyone who thinks she has been run out of town is missing the oppurtunies she has been handed.

I do not know much about Mulberry. Lakeland however is a city anyone in Florida can tell you the name of. In Florida, you can have several cities, literally fifteen minutes apart from each other. Just a matter of driving down one street. Everyone, knows of Daytona Beach however that is also surrounded by other little cities that noone would recognize the names of. Always, thought that was kind of funny.

I think because of Victoria’s age it may take her a little longer to refocus her life and see herself not as just the victim on t.v. For she is not the one who should feel any shame or embarrassment. No matter how ward some of the people who ‘pop up’ making it seem.

Just a scenario but how many of us with teenagers would welcome Victoria as one of their friends with open arms. I would. How many would welcome the other teenagers into their daughters or sons lives. I certainly would not. The trust is lost for all of these girls. It will take a long time to earn back. Judging from the continued lack of remorse by the actions seen on t.v. and in court they have not even begun to deal with their ‘issues’.

So, like you stated judgement of the courts and justifiable punishment is needed. However, their larger problem is judgement from those they meet in the future. It will take a long time to live down what they did. However, they can stay in a town that supports them (not all I am sure) and continue to receive support in a negative way. This will limit any chance they have spreading their wings in the future.

To anyone that lives in Mulberry I do not wish to offend you. I do not blame the actions of a select few on a town. Also, I am sure their are good people their who have had to pay in their own way as being known for this act of violence.

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January 1, 2009

Phil

I know AmyV And myself have consistenly called for retribution from these defendants . It is easy to see that we will always put the victim ahead of the defendants. We both want a strong message sent on what will happen to anybody that wants to do something similar.I find it very hard to show and feel compassion for the.defendants. The rage and hatred of thier actions only allow for me to
travel so far down this road. You look at what Natasha Dahn did ‘At her sentenceing she said .I totally screwed my friend Not that others did as well or that others did worse . She did totally screw her friend .For those who counted Victoria thier friend before that day . It is important to remember this was not only Mercades. You also totally screwd over your friend mayby for life. Where does one turn to move on. The law will make it very clear on what it expects. There will be tough conditions applied to whatever sentence is given .(One i know I will not be happy with . I want jail time and lots of it).They must somehow accept that they totally screwd over thier friend for nothing that really mattered .When they do this .If tomorrow they all said we totally screwed over our friend and we don.t know if we can ever be forgiven.
then i hope that I would be able to join those that call for compassion and mercy for the defendants . I doubt i will be put to the test .And that just sucks.

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January 1, 2009

Phil

To Gomp.
Can you imagine BritM or Mercades explaing thier role not jusy BH .And if the daughter is in thier teens and are being bullied in any way the turmoil for both mother and daughter or son will be immense .Bad seeds planted have a way of multipling ,if however thier response to thier children was can you not see how wrong i was Can you not see the price that Victoria and I have paid . Then good seeds replace the bad . .Thier remose will have to be genuine .If not thier children will see through thier excuses much easier then we do

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January 1, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

I think that human nature is a pretty pitiful thing, and if left to itself it will make us revert to a state of savagery. We don’t need science to tell us that. It is confirmed also by scriptures. Without the guidance of the higher power we would be lost. Those of us who treat others with compassion and consideration are in possession of a moral conviction that depends on a spiritual principle. Those who treat others as objects and exploit them are lacking in spirituality. Those who perpetrated the attack on Victoria were clearly missing something in their lives.

It may be that some are incorrigible. There may be a biological defect that would require them to be removed from society. Or, they may have the potential to change and could refuse to change their ways because they freely prefer to continue brutalizing others.

Still I believe there is hope at least for some, if they are offred a chance to see the beauty of a more spiritual life. I do agree with your concern about forcing an ideology on someone. I don’t believe in the kind of religion that forces us to accept specific dogmas. That is what attracts me to Buddhism. Buddhism in its pure form has no dogmas. It is more like a form of therapy that gets you to see the truth of the spirit for yourself, and when you see it you can’t really express it in words, but you express it by living a compassionate life. On thing I have learned is that I can’t really impart an understanding of Buddhism through words, or by recommending specific books on the subject. It has to be experienced. I believe that spirituality is much more intimately connected with our present physical condition than we are led to think. As Thomas Aquinas would have said, God is both transcendent and unknowable, but also immanent in this world and we can experience the divine presence within us.

So my approach is to bypass the more cerebral parts of the mind and focus on breathing, meditation and tai chi, and it works. It might work on the perpetrators here too, if given a chance. The important thing is for the therapist to not give up hope. There are ways to teach compassion to violent criminals and there has been success. For instance I saw a report by Jane Velez-Mitchell on HNN on getting violent offenders to train dogs in ways that emphasize gentleness and compassion. These prisoners then are able to transfer their methods of interaction with dogs to their interaction with humans. So, if violence toward humans often starts with cruelty to animals, maybe compassion for humans can begin with learning compassion for animals. I had the strange thought that it might even be worth a try to see if Michael Vick would learn compassion for dogs in this manner. I am not kidding. I wonder if the reason it hasn’t worked is that it hasn’t been tried.

As always I continue to pray for you and your family.

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January 1, 2009

Phil

To AmyV
I agree again it is hard for us to respond to one another ..I have shared things here with friends i do not know in a way that friends i do know have not seen . I do not know if this is good or bad but the fact that some one like you agrees with me so much i will take as huge compliment .
I just don’t know what the role of the 2 boys was. I do think they knew something was going to happen .I do not think the girls even knew how bad this was going to get .Even being outside or dropping by later was probally not enough to charge them . Without direct testimony from one of the girls saying they were lookouts, Victoria’s statements are only opinions. If as a teenager i heard that we are going to fight Victoria . I probally wouldn’t have done much and as far as viewing the tape lots of us have done that .Of couse what happened wasn’t a fight but if anything the 2 boys probally thought a fight was what was going to happen ‘Cara is a whole different story she was in the room ..

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January 1, 2009

Scott

Hello all. I feel a tad sluggish today New Years day.

As we all know the prosecution holds all the cards in the Victoria Lindsay assault and battery and false improsonment case. The sad incident occured March 30, 2008 and today is January 1, 2009. Nine months have passed with this case going nowhere. People need to send a message to the PCSO and the prosecution to get this case rolling along. I mean it’s not like the tragic Caylee Anthony case which lacks eyewitnesses to Caylee mother Casey killing her. But that case is making good progress while Tori’s is stuck in neutral even though it has blatant video evidence of the crimes committed against Tori. It’s crazy.

Amy, April Cooper’s name is not mentioned on te Victoria’s 911 call. I know you were wondering about that and pretty sure April’s name was not mentioned. It was not in the 911 call I heard.

Here’s to hoping Tori and her family had a merry Christmas and happy new year! 🙂 And I hope Tori got some quality time under the Mistletoe with someone special. )

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January 1, 2009

Scott

Remember the article in The Ledger about how Tori was confronted at a bonfire by a bunch of angry girls? That article also talked about Tori giving a deposition to defense attorney’s. In that deposition Tori said that her relationship with Mercades deteriorated because she did not help out Mercades by helping to break up Mercades ex boyfriend and the girl he was dating. I don’t recall this being discussed before. It could explain why Mercades seemed to have turned on Tori the way she did by kicking her out of her Nana’s house and then allowing the girls to tee off on Tori. Of course I could be wrong but there might be some truth to this issue. And could Mercades have wanted Tori to stay with her and her Nana and then expected Tori to repay her kindness by helping her break up her ex boyfriend and his girlfriend? The writer of the article Jason Geary has been on top of this entire Victoria Lindsay assault case like no other journalist and it sounds like he knows what he’s writing about.

But the bottom line is I hope this case is resolved early in 2009 so all involved parties can move on. Us here too for that matter.

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January 1, 2009

Phil

To Scott
Seems alot of time passed between the attempted break-up To Mercades first charges and the assult on Victoria. I do not think there will ever be a logical reason to explain the assult. i think the Defendants are at a loss themselves (excluding April and BritM they seemed to know what they wanted . I do not know if Bh and Mercades understands why they did what they did and for Mercades why she betrayed victoria…I think these 2 are probally having the hardest time with this .Just guessing
certainly no proof.

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January 1, 2009

gompertz

Scott-

I agree that the article by Jason Geary provided important insights into the kind of animosities that fueled the beating. I have thought about the role of the bonfire incident and how it explains the motives of Ms Mayes and Ms Cooper. I also think the article explained the bad feeling between Mercades and her friend Victoria. Clearly there was more to it than hairbrushes and such things. So, we learn that Victoria was supposed to help break up the exBF and his new GF. That makes sense. But it takes us right back to the question of the relationship between Mercades and this boy for whom she obviously had a lot of feelings. I have promised not to get into any more speculations about this guy, not at this time. I think that the further course of events will bring that issue more into focus. It’s one of those little matters that will keep this whole story from going away, no matter what the courts decide about the beating case itself.

So, yes, you are right that the prior events have a lot to do with the beating, but where do we stop? The beating leads back to the bonfire incident, and to Mercades’ troubles with her ex, and we can trace those things back further and further if we wish. I believe we will ultimately trace the whole things back to its roots in the whole culture of instinctual gratification through sex and violence that has developed in the absence of spiritual values. True, we have to look at the role of individual responsibility and those who beat Victoria made their choices of their own free will. But if we want to rectify things and prevent this from happening again, we have to pay attention to the need to provide a better set of values for these young people. If not, more good people like Mercades (and the others too) will find it too easy to make the kinds of wrong choices that lead to disaster.

You see, I’m also not good at those short pithy comments.

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January 1, 2009

Amyv

Scott –

I also remember the article you mentioned. Victoria did state that Mercades was upset with her about not helping her with the ex-boyfriend situation. I never brought it up because the ex seems to be a sensitive issuse.

However, I will use what the victim said and common sense here. I always believe Victoria’s words above any others. I will never doubt what she says. Hers, besides a minute amount of details due to the concussion, have been consistent since day one.

In the affidavit filed to the police by Jack (Mercades ex boyfriend) it is stated Mercades enlisted another boy to help break up his new relationship. She even paid the boy to do so. Also, wanted the exboyfriend beaten up. Also, enlisted Brittini Hardcastle to deliver a Valentines Day present to ex. Also, with Brittini Hardcastle attempted to run Jake off the road And I believe the new girlfriend was in the car.

This being said here comes common sense. Either the boy is lying and also the new girl friend who I would assume would be called as a witness for the next trial. One boy had already taken Mercades money and did not follow through with his end of the breaking up and beating up. Brittini Hardcastle a player once again with bullying someone with Mercades.

So Victoria statement does have back up here. Mercades did want them broken up. One boy had already not helped her. Brittini H. although helpful in the bullying tactic wasn’t getting it done. So with Victoria stating Mercades wanted her help breaking them up is to much of a coincidence for me.

I have believed this was a major issue since the day I read this information. That is unless we assume the ex is lying, his girlfriend, the other boy mentioned and or course Victoria. This would be a whole lot of people giving once again very similiar stories lairs. I can’t fall for that one. Not that niave.

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January 1, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

For the first time I think I have a different opinion than you. I think each and everyone of these girls had an agenda. Mayes and Coopers have been better documented. However, Kayla on the tape was pretty clear, a boy. Cara Murphy I don’t know except for her being a good friend of Aprils. Brittini Hardcastle likes to inflict pain and felt it necessary to show off for all of these girls. Mercades pick one of several excuses. Gas money, hair brush, jealousy, etc.

I don’t believe any of these girls was swept up in the moment. It was to well planned. Excuse me for saying I think they could have cared less how much harm and humiliation they inflicted. I doubt either one of these girls are pondering the why did I do this question. Since their parents and their lawyers feel some of these girls were being wrongly accused and lied about by the victim herself. That is also on tape.

So I can not see that Mercades has shown one ounce more remorse than any of the other girls. None of them have shown the character to accept the punishment and stop their lawyers from bashing the victim. They are standing behind the skirt tails of their mothers and lawyers to avoid blame in this crime.

I don’t think I made my self very clear about the boys. Legallly they seem to have commited no crime. Morally if they did know their was going to be a fight and knew how many girls were involved they should feel Remorse. Driving by and adding insult to injury with these girls in their car morally wrong. Watching the tape with these girls for pleasure (disgusting) and morally wrong. Just wondering what kind of remorse or lessoned learned they have from their actions.

Phil if the girls told you they have just all beaten on Victoria would you want to watch it? I don’t think you would for an instant. A true man would not find pleasure in this kind of brutality. We all watched it because if was shown on t.v. and we were mortified. They watched for the sheer pleasure of it. Adds to the sickness of this case.

As for the questions about still hating people from your past here is my comment on that. I held a lot of hate for two particular people in my life for a few years. I mean a lot. I found out it was effecting me way more than them. Hate can becoming a consuming thing. If you don’t let it go you harm no one but yourself. I just chose to stay away from people I don’t care for. I truly hate no one. Dislike people yes. You can’t like everyone. To many different types of personalities for that.

Thanks Phil

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January 1, 2009

Phil

You guys could be right .I would still like to know the dates of the charges being laid agaist Mercades and when Mercades asked for Victoira to move in.Victoria herself said she didn,t quite understand the reasoning behind the attack.I think she was guessing trying to understand Mercades betrayal. The problem is again with Mercades saying she was afraid of BritH .If she was that upset with Victoria for not helping then I do not think she would have been that eager to have Victoria move in. .the million dollar question always seems to be why did Mercades turn on Victoria. If what you all are saying is true this actually supports my earier claim that Mercades was one of the ring leaders.
someone gathered all these people together who else could it have been probally not BH. either kayla or Mercades..Mercades has the past accusations against her for this type of manipulation.I am just not sure how much Victoria not helping break-up Jake from girlfriend really had to do with this case except to point out what Mercades is capable of and why BH didn’t ask Mercades to hit Victoria when she almost demanded that everyone else take thier turn.

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January 1, 2009

Amyv

Gomp –

Yes we can keep going on what lead up to the beating back to when they were born 🙂 The real truth of the matter is why they did it has no bearing on what the punishment should be. It will never justify the act itself.

So as I stated before punishment should be handed down regardless of the reasons. What happened can not be undone. All six hold accountability. Truly, if some are sorry now it still doesn’t bear much weight on the incident occuring.

What should be focused on is preventing future bullying and criminal behavior. A compass is badly needed to people today. Seem to be lost and floundering where morality is concerned.

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January 1, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

Sorry I believe some of my statements to you were intended for Scott. Just a typo. The more you dig into this case the more or less sense it makes depending on whos opinion you are getting.

I have stated before I had a problem with the whole ring leader theory. However, I stated they were blaming Mercades instead of B.H. I was basing this not on fact but on who did the most physical damage to Victoria.

A lot of leniency has been shown towards Mercades because of the fact her mother blogs here. However, what if all six of the mothers were commenting here? Would we lay less blame on their daughters because of that fact?

I do believe the most mental damage inflicted on Victoria was caused by Mercades. This was the ‘friend’ she was living with and unfortunately someone she trusted. I do not think Mercades looked on bit surprised and absolutely not scared when Victoria was beaten to a pulp. You make a good point. Why is it they took turns hitting Victoria while Mercades sat back enjoying the beating? Was it because she didn’t want to get her own hands dirty? Good points. Looking more and more like the media got it right all along.

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January 1, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

As you say the ex boyfriend is a sensitive issue. I’m sure the mention of this boy hurts Mercades more than it hurts me. Still, I speak in her defense. The evidence you mention, including Victoria’s statement about Mercades wanting her to break up Jake and the new gf, I see no reason to question it at all. Any of the other things, also no need to question it, although the thought of a boy colluding with his new girlfriend to lie about the ex doesn’t seem far-fetched to me. Anyway I think it’s tragically comical to talk about Mercades valentine present as if it were somethiing sinister. I accept the possibility that she did all the bad things (little things) she is accused of in relation to Jake. What I don’t see, while we are ready to accept the allegations about Mercades as fact, we find no blame at all with Jake. If Jake is blameless, we would have to assume that Mary Nichols is lying when she says Jake left Mercades upon learning of her pregnancy. If that is true,then he is no good, no matter what else he did or didn’t do. I have a feeling we will soon find out enough to make up our minds.

To me, what is important is that all the allegations about Mercades’s actions in that case are the result of her deep emotional attachment to this boy who proved unworthy. He proved unworthy by leaving her, and the evidence that he did is the word of Mary Nichols, and for me that is enough.

Amy, no one is making excuses for Mercades or the others for that matter. Yew, I do use my intuition and I can’t prove that my intuition is correct, but I go with it. I look at Mercades’ picture, I read her poem, I consider the little bits of iinformation we have, and I see someone who is intelligent and sensitive. Obviously being very sensitive is a good thing, but it is a quality you have to cultivate and under some circumstances it can get you in trouble.
Especially if you feel things very deeply and place more value in people’s friendship than they place in yours. Unrequited love is painful in any circumstances, and in the heart of an artistic temperament it can lead to reckless and dangerous actions. So that is how Mercades arrived in this terrible predicament and she will have to learn how to develop her artistic abilities in positive directions.

So there is my intuitive feeling, and I don’t insist that any one agrees with it. I can’t prove it. It may sound a bit grandiose to say so, but I think Mercades will prove me right one day, and the brightness of the future will contrast sharply with the darkness of the present situation.

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January 1, 2009

Phil

To amy
I do not think we have disagreed.And if we have it is minor .Yes they all had thier agenda and carried it out . Bm and Aprils motivation have become clearer . If You sat down with Mercades and asked her why she turned , I think(don’t know ) that she would have a hard time explaining what happened in her mind .Was it 4 dollars ,Was it Jake ,it wasn.t another boy like Kayla’s or that she was mad at Victoria like BM and AC.It is very hard to get a read on the why, not on that it was done.I also think BH would find it hard to explain why she acted like she did when there dosen’t seem to be anything personal that Victoria did to BH.I think the plan was to fight Victoria I just don’t think the 2 boys could know what this meant.Unless one of the other defendants say that they were a lookout besides the yelling they couldnt even know how bad it was till they looked at the tape , then they were cowards and deserve the scorn they have recieved..Hearing the words fight and what acually happened have very little to do with one another . It all went wrong when Victoria screwed them all by not fighting back How bad and how far they planned to go I do not think was decided . that became the BritH show .And everybody jumped in with eyes wide open and deserve the harshest sentence because of it.You don’t have to excuse yourself for saying they could have cared less how much harm and humiliation they inflicted because they absolutly did not care how much harm and humiliation they inflicted and made sure it was as bad as they could make it. .
You know Amy what i think about thier remorse
and excuses so no differing of opinions there .
I do not think this takes away from what most of us agree was a planned attack . They were there to to punish Victoria how much was decided before hand does not really matter . They did what they were there for .

Reply
January 1, 2009

Phil

To Amy V
did not read your last post to me before i posted my replyto the one before .
always in your corner .
Phil

Reply
January 1, 2009

gompertz

If the other parents appeared here, I would treat them with same respect I show to Christina unless they prove unworthy of respect. Phil, when you say they deserve the harshest punishment, what do you mean? The harshest punishment is life in prison, so are we back to that? The problem is there are many beatings that are planned, that are brutal and lead to serious injury or even death and they go unpunished for all sorts of reasons. Now, in my Catholic upbringing I learned to think in terms of Either/Or. You are either going to heaven or hell, purgatory is only a temporary station along the way to heaven, so there is no in between. If those are only choices, I wouldn’t put these people in hell. A long time in purgatory, but eventually they get to heaven with the rest of the good people, once the flames have done the work of purification. Believe me, in my version of Dante’s Inferno, hell would be crowded enough with all the murderers and rapists and Ceos and slime like Bernie Madoff. Hell would also be the place for all the preachers of false values that poison the minds of the young and lead them to evil like what we see in the video.

Speaking from a Buddhist perspective we also believe in various kinds of hell. When I said that I still hate people from my teenage years I meant it. The hate I felt toward the people in the video was a continuation of that same feeling, just different visual stimuli. As Amy reminds us, that is a destructive emotion. But the energy of hate can be transformed into compassion, it is the same energy just a different focus. I certainly see the hate in that video. in the actions of those who clearly hated the victim. For that there must be punishment, but also the possibility of correction. Hate can turn to love, and if the other parents posted here, that is what they would hear from me.

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January 2, 2009

Phil

To gomp
Can understand your confusion when i talk about spirituality in one post and harshness in the other .As to this moment I have not seen anything meaningful come from the defendants that tells me they have accepted what they have done. We can all repeat our post on thier excuses .Or worst how they have thier lawyers take shots at Victoria at one time or another.These defendants actions do not come anywhere close to deserving life in prison .My opinion(based on absolutly no legal experience exept Law and order) is what ever the deserved punishment should be is what should be given .They should all get the maxamin time , They gave no mercy or compassion and thier sentence should reflect this . It is hard for me to go from being a proscecuter to judge. .But to be clear on what i would give these girls is as follows .BritH 5 to 6 years. BM 4 to 5 years Mercades and April 3 to 4 years Kayla 6 months .Gomp my question to you is what would you give these people for thier actions . I don’t know if i have seen your sentence recomondations .,I have seen what you think is unfair but what do you think is Just(I to can stir the pot) . As far as Christina goes .I told Christina that I would d be saying what i thought in regards to her and Mercades .Since . that time I have foundher question and responses respectful and pertinent to our post .I do not think that i have taken it easy on anybody and as dificult as that had to be for Christina to read .She has always shown repect in her replys . others with not as much at stake have called me out
.This to is very Fair .

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January 2, 2009

Scott

Phil, I do not know how much time passed between maercades allegedly wanting Tori to help her break up her ex boyfriend and girlfriend. But suffice it to say Mercades did not forget and I bet Mercades was alot more bothered by that from Tori than Tori owing her $4. And Phil, you want the girls to serve stern sentence for their crimes against Victoria. Those are fair sentences when you consider the serious crimes they are charged with. But if each girl got half of what you want then atleast some measure of justice will be served on Victoria’s behalf. But I wouldn’t count on it. I’m not sure Mayes will get as much times as you want because she hardly hit Tori even though she wanted Tori to get it.

Gomp, I like your Ms. Mayes and Ms. Cooper touch to start the new year. ) And you are so right that the instincual gratification of the younger generation causes alot of avoidable problems. It really is a shame that alot of yopung people’s lives are controlled by the internet and the need to be liked there.

Amy, I agree wtih you that Brittini Hardcastle took over and mercilessly pounded Tori to show off for the girls. She needed to feel good about that for some reason. Of course if the girl Hardcastle wanted to pound was a heavyweight chick like say Brittany Mayes instead of an outnumbered lightweight like Tori then she wouldn’t have gone after her.

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January 2, 2009

Phil

Scott
Besides Brit H, BritM was the only other involved in hitting and the kidnapping and she did pretty much all the camera work . She involved herself in every espect of the assult. Mercades didn’t hit Victoria and April was only 14 and was not involved in the trip To CVS. . Those that were 17 have to bear some responsibility(Mercades BritH,BritM)for letting a 14 year old become involved in such Brutality. .

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January 2, 2009

gompertz

Phil, I know I gave some specific recommendations for sentencing somewhere, but I’m too lazy to search for them. But I remember when asked I gave a range of answers. For BH, I think at one point I said 2 or 3 years in adult prison, another time I said, 7 years with possibility of parole after 3. So my recommendations at that time didn’t differ much from Amy’s, in fact that 7 years was a lot harsher than hers.

But then again, your six or my seven years, it’s more than some rapists and murderers get. And then there are the criminals like Bernie Madoff, who will enjoy a few years of leisure at a country club correctional facility and resume his comfortable life of preying on others without laying a finger on anyone. Ask me what I would give Bernie Madoff and I’ll tell you they should dust off the medieval tools of punishment in the Ripley’s Believe It Or Not exhibit and put them to good use. BTW they say Hitler never touched anyone, never pulled a lever in a gas chamber. So I think about what would be reasonable and I’m happy I’m not a judge. I would however be happy to be a therapist. If BH gets that kind of sentence I would visit her in prison and tell her about meditation and things like that. Maybe I would write letters to her and the others if they were in that kind of place, and it might be a welcome relief from the hate mail they are sure to receive. I should add that I would classify as “hate mail” any letters from sick twisted people who admire what they did.

I recall now, it wasn’t too long ago, I answered Electronica’s question about what would be an appropriate sentence for AC. I said 2 or 3 years, not in adult prison. I said she should be deprived of TV and video games and “comfort food.” But in return she would get instruction in meditation, easstern philosophy and some kind of martial art like tai chi. And that goes for all of them.

The point is we just don’t know how bad these girls are. And I do know some girls are just as evil as the worst male murderers. You know the Shanda Sharer case? Tortured to death by four teenage girls, and for those four I hope hell is a very hot place. Part of my problem is that I look at the Lakeland thing and bad as it looks, there are far worse crimes. At this moment there are millions of girls being kept as slaves and some right here in this country. Did you ever see the MSNBC shows on sex slaves? The one on Cambodia especially made me sick, little children as young as four abused. What kind of punishment for the monsters who do that?

As for the perpetrators showing no remorse. And watching the video and enjoying it. Yes it is terrible. But have these girls ever been offered any other way? Doing what they did and enjoying it, that was sick I agree. But it’s the whole culture that is sick. You can see videos of brutal beatings on the Internet and I’m sure they saw them too. I know kids where I live, younger than these girls who think the Lakeland video is “cool.” And their parents are shocked to hear that their little darlings think it is “cool” to hold someone prisoner and beat them up. And really, if these girls get long sentences, would that change the minds of these little darlings or would they just say “they for stupid to get caught.” Kids say the cutest things, you know.

Remember too that the parents of these Lakeland girls are not very sophisticated people. The attorneys who reprresent them are indeed sophisticated and unscrupulous (the two seem to go together). If you are confronted with the choice of seeing your daughter spend many years in prison and then be designated for the rest of her life as a convicted felon, and the attorney tells you the only hope is to make the victim look bad on the witness stand……..well that is what in Catholic school was called “lifeboat ethics.” You’re in a lifeboat with one other person but there is only enough food and water for one, you see where this is going.

On topix I suggested that the families of the accused should openly repudiate the actions of their attorneys and fire them and that would be as good as the apology they are not allowd to make publicly. No one has agreed with me that it would be a good idea, and some one replied that the fanily of April Cooper endorses what her lawyer did in attacking the victim. Lifeboat ethics can be a b*****.

So anyway, that’s part of an answer, and remember I’m not Scott so I tend to go on and on and on.

Reply
January 2, 2009

gompertz

Scott, thanks for taking note of my little refinement. As the guy on the other blog suggests, there may be people reading this who have some involvement in this case and little things can make a difference. It’s the Buddhist (and Judaeo-Christian) thing to do.

Reply
January 2, 2009

gompertz

BTW what do you guys think of my idea of Michael Vick spending his sentence training dogs? Believe me, when this story appeared on Nancy Grace, I said “he should burn in hell.” Now I say let’s see if rehabilitation might work. So, yes, I do look at different possibilities, and I have heard stories of hunters becoming animal rights advocates, so sometimes people can change. Sometimes but not always.

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January 2, 2009

Phil

To gomp.
Mikeael Vick should not be let near any animal ever again .BritM should never be aloud near a camera ..Rehabiltation is cetainly needed .I just do not think that it is a repacement for punishment . the Carrot and stick method i think is best . It has never been my point to punish these girls because they were evil, Whaat they did was evil and punishing them for wjhat they did is far better then for what they thought .We cannot change the younger generation but they have to know what will hapen when lines are crossed to this severety , Whether you were stupid enough to get caught or tape your crimes.The news today on cnn was the taped beating of a 15 year old the tape they used was Victoria getting beat. This crime has become the standard to which others will be judged .Compassin and help for the defendants has to be balanced with the need of society to protect itsself and its law abiding citizens .They must be made examples of within the confines of the laws they broke. If any of these girls need to change then programs should be made availabe , If as we say they are not evil then they just have to do thier time ,pay back thier debt and move on.

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January 2, 2009

Scott

You’re welocm Gomp.

I also think that it would be great if the families having their attorney’s use mudslinging tactics against Tori fired those attornies. But I doubt that will happen.

Gomp, I think Michael Vick should be made to work with dogs. By all accounts he liked animals. Sadly Vick like many others also believe in fighting dogs and having the dogs that lose or are injured killed. Vick and others will tell you that fighting dogs is a part of their culture or whatever. And they really believe that which means the rest of need to find out why they think that. Wasn’t the rapper DMX recently jailed for animal abuse? And I’m sure people of all colors fight dogs and abuse animals under the guise of sport or culture. It really is hard to understand.

Phil, Tori’s beating tape lives on in infamy. And I’m still torn on the tapes being made public. Those videos could haunt Tori for the rest of her life. 🙁 But I hope that she can somehow shake it off.

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January 2, 2009

gompertz

Scott-

You are right about Michael Vick and the cultural aspect of dog fighting. It is a shame that many people, black and white, turned it into a racial thing, and obviously it isn’t. A more useful distinction would be between urban and rural culture. Throughout history many more people lived in the countryside than the city and cruelty to animals was taken as normal. Only in modern times when urbanization enabled people to see animals as living beings with their own dignity rather than objects of exploitation. The fact remains that kindness to animals has been the exception throughout history and it is true today. Another thing: the city dweller can afford to espouse animal rights even though he continues to use animals as food and wear fur and leather. After all, someone else takes that animal and effects its transformation from a living organism to a hamburger or steak. So I see Michael Vick as part of a rural culture that preserves the traditions of animal cruelty that reach back to antiquity. There is no reason to deny the possibility that he could change his feelings if he were only introduced to a different way. Getting violent criminals to train dogs in humane ways has already been proven to work. It is all about the social environment.

The same may apply to the perpetrators here. They are part of a culture of violence. Like Michael Vick, let them do their time and be shown a better way. It may be just that simple.

Sadly, the powerful people who have taken over handling the case have other plans. The defense team and also the prosecutors want to put on a show. They do not want a simple resolution because they want to put on a spectacle and benefit from it. If the defense lawyers convince the defendants that the only way for them to escape harsh sentences is to attack the victim, what do they know? Who among them would stand up against their own lawyers? They are obviously intimidated and overwhelmed by the whole process and don’t see any way out except to let the lawyer do what he does best. They are victims of the culture of violence, and they are victims of the predators in suits who exploit their fears. And to me it is an open question whether or not they are capable of remorse. For Victoria’s sake and their own I hope they are.

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January 3, 2009

Scott

Where is sherrif Judd? The Victoria Lindsay assault case was his baby and it got him alot of national publicity. He cared so much about this case and helping Victoria receive justice back in April of 2008. But we haven’t heard a peep from him since then. It makes me wonder.

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Scott, our good law-and-order judge got the political mileage he wanted by talking tough about the beating and people loved him for it. Now that the case has become bogged down in legal maneuvering there is no opportunity for any photo ops for the sheriff. And it looks like this whole mess is going to turn into a bloodbath in the courts. We may see complete chaos with interminable lawsuits and attorneys will take center stage. If that happens, will there be any way for John Wayne Judd to look good in front of a camera? Will the mistakes the sheriff and deputies made at the start loom large because lawyers will exploit legal technicalities to throw the case into confusion? Stay tuned, more to come. Don’t get your hopes uo that there will be a clean and decisive ending to this mess.

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January 3, 2009

Scott

Gomp, it’s so true about the differences between urban and rural cultures. Especially in the old days. But the old school ways and beliefs aren’t tolerated nearly as much anymore especially where animal abuse goes. And that’s a good thing because change is needed when it comes to people wanting to fight dogs. Dog fighting is simply wrong and really shouldn’t be an issue. But it is.

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January 3, 2009

Phil

I don’t know what you guys expect the role of the sherrifs office to be once a case gets past on to the D.A office any remarks made by the sherrifs office is nothing but fodder for the defendants.Look how the investigators all shut up once Casey Anthony (Whom hell has reserved a special place for) was charged
to Amy
looking at my last 2 post to you .you were right and i was wrong, if fighting was all this was about you wouldn’t of had the interagation ‘especially from BH. As I said in an even earlier post . They staged thier little mock trial and carrried out thier sentence.The fact that BH was so primed to go means to me that her (friends) I’m afraid of you Kayla, and I’m afraid of you Mercades ,made sure she was ripping to go . I would love to know when the rest of the girls joined BH Mercades and April . I would bet the texting back and forth was also to make sure everybody was there . (just guessing there ).

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

With regard to the mock trial and sentencing they carried out, isn’t that exactly what I have said in my previous posts? Their point of view was that of a youth culture that has rejected (and been rejected by) traditional society and feel the need to maintain order in their own way by reconstituting the organs of established society including law courts and means of carrying out sentences. That is why I think these people are not necessarily evil, they are doing what the established society always does, only without ay constitutional safeguards for the rights of the “accused” who in this case was Victoria. The more I look at it the more I see it as a social problem, not that the girls were INFLUENCED wrongly by society, but that they are part of a youth culture that feels ABANDONED by society, and these young people feel they must fend for themselves. The state has a monopoly of organized violence, as Max Weber puts it. If the state does not respond to your concerns, do you then have the right to take over the state”s function of violence? The Lakeland girls answered in the affirmative, as so many young people do. The state answers no. The old saying holds true, the little criminal gets hung and the big criminal gets made a hero. Remember history is written by the winners, and Andrew Jackson is honored as a hero even though he was, morally and factually, a mass murder who broke every law and ignored every Supreme Court decision to have his own way. He got his way because the force of public opinion supported him. If only they had video cameras when he executed people without trial and sent the Cherokee out on the Trail of Tears. Would people be so eager to see Jackson as a hero if they could See with their own eyes what he did? You follow what I’m saying, right? No need to elaborate further.

As for Scott’s observation about how we don’t tolerate dog fighting any more. True, but the devil gets his due. It seems the more we care about dogs’ rights the less we care about human rights, and I say this even though I support PETA. Look at the horrible abuse of children and teens in those all-too-popular fight videos. Kids getting brutally beaten and the media and police seem indifferent. Try putting a dog fight on the Internet and the police will hunt you down for sure.

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January 3, 2009

Phil

Sorry gomp
gota disagree strongly.
Every one of those girls knew right from wrong . It is way to easy to blame society .Its the same tired excuse that has been around forever .You just used Andrew Jackson as an example different society same problem . I believe we are all responsible for our own actions .Society did not beat up Victoria . Six girls beat up Victoria .Six Girls chose to do this with the benifit of free will as thier guide.
Bullying has been around forever it is a problem with every society in all cultures since the beginnig of civilazation .Good people can do bad things .Weak characters can be manipulated,this is why the only defense can be to hold oneself accountable anything else lessens the lessons that need to be learned .In the worst case scenrio It is what the trials of Nuremburg taught us .We cannot say that we were following orders I did this because i was afraid . As soon as we forget this lesson and look elsewhere away from the individual actions do these types of things occur . I don.t know these girls to know if they are nice , evil.or something in between. I am not judging thier persons i am judging thier actions.

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January 3, 2009

Scott

Gomp, I think sherrif Judd would like your John Wayne Judd quip. ) I still think Judd should say something about this case but maybe he’s been advised to be quiet. But Judd wil look bad if the girls get off lightly as I expect they will.

And Gomp I think you hit on something stating that people care more about dogs than people. It’s true in a way.

Phil, Brittini was ripping to go as you put it before Tori even got to the house. Mercades told Tori when she was coming home not to have an attitude or Brittini would be her ass and she wouldn’t stop it. And that’s exactly what happened.

As for the texting before the assault we know the girls told Tori they needed her home after they were nasty to her in text messages and on the phone. And I’m sure the testing during the assault was to let their friends know that Tori was getting it. You can plainly see Kayla on her phone during the fight in a tex message mode. gee I wonder what she was texting her friends about. ) You can bet it was that they finally got Tori.

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January 3, 2009

Electronica

ms. garcia i dont email with ppl from blogs its my rule maybe its stupid but its a rule. i just wanne know if they all got the same. i think thats wrong if its so. and if its prison for merc. and april and kayla. i mean real prison not jail not juvie.

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

I don’t see any disagreement. At Nuremberg, it was affirmed that individual responsibility was the decisive factor as it should be. But surely there is value in investigating the social conditions that led to Hitler?
The top Nazis were probably psychopaths who were devoid of morality and compassion, and their actions showed it. But under different social conditions they would probably have lived ordinary lives and never hurt anyone. What were the historical and social factors that transformed them into brutal killers? So you are the prosecutor, I’m the social historian. I think that we have reached a point in this country when we have to look more closely at the culture of violence among the young and see where things went wrong.

Even though the perpetrators in Lakeland are responsible for their actions, the choices available to them are limited by the social environment. Back in the 50s many people were never confronted with the possibility of making the kind of mistake these girls made. This is especially true because they are girls, because in the 50s girls simply did not fight unless they were biker chicks. Today girls have become part of the culture of violence and it is becoming normal for them to fight just like the guys do. It doesn’t mean girls were nicer, or morally better in those days. They had other ways to do evil deeds than using fists or knives. For instance, they could get some guy to do the dirty work of beating someone up. They could spread rumors and lie and steal and ruin your life in so many ways.

Today young people are out of control. They do not respond to the accustomed forms of social conditioning and follow their own social rules. To say this is not to make excuses for their actions, just to face the fact that new forms of social organization are being created and young people respond to different stimuli than people of previous generations. Think about a frontier town that has grown up beyond the reach of settled communities. The people in this town will elect their own law enforcement officers, their own judges, and choose their own juries from among themselves. They will emulate the customary legal arrangements of the civilized communities which they left behind, but the specific arrangements they make to enforce law and order will be their own. And this is tacitly accepted by the legal establishment of the mother country.

So, why was it acceptable for the people of Dodge City to enforce the laws of their frontier community, including the imposition of punishment, while it is not acceptable for a group of girls in Lakeland to do the same thing? It should be obvious why. For one thing, Dodge City was geographical distant from civilization and a Florida town is not, no matter what nasty rumors we hear about Lakeland. The problem is, in spite of the obvious differences between the Dodge City example and the Lakeland case, so many young people really see themselves as pioneers of some sort, rebels and outcasts who have rejected the traditional order of things and feel constrained to constitute a new order with their own values and their own laws. I don’t bring these things up to make excuses, any more than I bring up Germany’s prodigious social problems of the 1920s to condone the actions of the nazis. And please, I don’t for a minute compare these girls to nazis. But unless society is aware of the deep sense of alienation of so many young people, we are facing social anarchy and the time is coming when the Lakeland beating will be seen as a normal event.

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January 3, 2009

AmyV

Hello everyone. Wow, for one day and so many posts to respond to. Since a lot has been said I will just make my comments general unless special ideas are quoted.

First let me start with Michael Vick. Michael Vick is not part of a Urban or Rurall Society that condones animal cruetly. Michael Vick was a rich football player who thought he was above the law. He was fighting these poor dogs for money, as if the millions he was already making were not enough.

People that train animals to fight and kill for the sport of it are cruel and gain some sort of sick pleasure out of it. period. This really was worse than a PETA issues where they believe animals should not even be used for consumption (sorry sounds gross). They trained, tortured, forced breed, and let these animals die just feet away from his ‘lovely mansion’. He wasn’t brought up in a society that condoned this sort of behavior. He consciously choice this sickening form of entertainment. Not on does he have jail time but he also lost on a lucrative career and the respect of Americans who saw him as a footbal legend. So he in the end loses everything. I say good.

As for him training animals as a way to rehabilitate him. Please, he was already ‘training animals’ that was one of his biggest problems. So he paid big time for his crime and has no one to blame by himself. Hope it was worth it to him.

Gomp – My big problem with PETA is when they sent my daughter a big packet in the mail. She was 10 years old. It was around the time of her birthday and when I layed the mail down she picked it up thinking it was a card. So many horrible pictures and imagines she cried for days. I was furious. Where did these people even get her name? They did accompolish their goal however as she was not eaten a piece of meat to this day.

I think they do a lot of good things. I just think this was fantaically over the top and totally irresponsible on their part. So, for all the good they day I commend them. For their irresponsibleness it still makes me angry.

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January 3, 2009

AmyV

Long winded I know. It does make you wonder when people are more angry over animal cruelty than the beating of a teenage girl. Ask 100 people what they think of Michael Vicks actions and 90 of them will agree it was horrific and deserved harsh punishment. Ask 100 people about Victoria Lindsay getting beat down like a dog and you certainly won’t get the same level of support. Very sad.

Very good points brought up about Hitler and others letting others do their dirty work for them. Certainly in no way can you compare the evilness of that man to anyone in this case. However, it does bring up the issue that the one who is not directly commiting the crime could be the one who planned it. Have to get off the subject of Hitler because that truely I do not want to mix into this case.

Scott – Kayla sure was texting away during the video. Once, again unless the messages were reviewed after the conviscation of her phone we won’t know what it was about. However, it would seem reasonable that it was about fighting going on. Just really adds to the whole ‘poor little Kayla’ defense not looking so good.

I have never thought she deserved more leniency than the others. Here is where a woman’s experience in dealing with other woman comes in. Sometimes the smallest and most ‘innocent’ looking one of the group uses that to her advantage. Kayla has from the start used this as a defense. So I don’t buy the whole swept away theory. To much calousness shown for me. Don’t act like a cruel heartless person when the action is taking place. Then pour on the innocent act when you get caught. I just don’t buy it.

Scott and Phil-

From the limited knowledge I have of how the judicial system works I do know this. The Sheriff does not make the final decision on what charges are filed. That is up to the prosecutor.

So at this point Sheriff Judd should and has stepped away from the publifc spot light in regards to this case. It is all up to the court system now. Any good that could have come from releasing that tape to the public has long since vanished. It could have been used as a deterent to show that violent behavior has severe consequences. The courts have dragged this out beyond the point of many people even remembering it on the news.

Phil – I to wish this case would go to trial and be televised on t.v. Than perhaps some of the many teenagers who think that it is ‘cool’ to torture and beat someone might think twice. Especially, if your intention is to post it on the internet. That truly is the only good thing I can ever see coming cout of this.

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January 3, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

I’ve been out all day, using my friends’ PC to post and just got home. I had a few busy days and will have a lot more, even though I take time to post here and there. So not paying as much attention to the blogs as I used to. But I was interested in your statement about animals cruelty and PETA. I donated a lot of money to PETA in the past and I raised issues with them about the way they presented their case. BTW I stopped giving them money because of Bill Maher. He is on their executive board and that didn’t bother me, even though he has a lot of views I found distasteful I thought he was a funny guy and I tolerate people’s views even when I don’t agree. One night that all changed for me. It was when he brought up the beating of Victoria Lindsay and said he enjoyed watching and the police shouldn’t have gotten involved. His guest Jason Alexander pointed out that the girl was hurt badly and it was not a fight but a brutal beating. Bill Maher defended himself by saying she wasn’t hurt, it was a fight and kids fight all the time, and anyway, she had it coming, and he kept repeating that he likes to watch. So this man is a pervert by his own admission, who likes to watch the brutal beating of a girl by other girls. I have never watched his show since then and I sent a letter to PETA in protest and of course I got no answer. I even sent letters to Oreilly and Sean Hannity because I was so angry at this sick little man. It is sad that our society is so depraved that it grants celebrity status to this psycho. But PETA will never get another cent from me unless they get rid of Bill Maher and apologize for ever having anything to do with him.

When they send pictures like the ones your daughter saw, they really should put a great big WARNING sign of some kind on the envelope so people are not shocked by what they see. I understand their intention, it is to make people aware of the cruel treatment of animals. They try different approaches to make their point, but they try too hard to get your attention. I think people who are concerned about the treatment of animals don’t need to be shown pictures. And the people who don’t care won’t be made to care by being shown spectacular and gruesome visual evidence. People do not change from good to bad or bad to good based on visual effects. It’s the same with the beating video. There are people who are outraged and repelled by it. Then there are people who enjoy it, like Bill Maher. And you can’t change the bad people by showing them the video. They see it and they are stimulated by it because they are sick and evil and they want to see more.

I am sorry that your daughter was upset by the pictures. Getting people upset does not make them compassionate. It seems your daughter is a very good person, a very sensitive person. As for not eating meat, well, if it is her choice, then okay, but there is nothing wrong with eating meat. I am a Buddhist but I am not a vegetarian. Most Buddhists in Asian countries like Tibet and Thailand eat meat. There are no strict rules in Buddhism as there are in some religions. In America many Buddhists abstain from meat because it makes them feel more spiritual, but then again, spirituality isn’t about feelings. Anyway, enough said about that. I wonder if your daughter knows that she can be a deeply spiritual and compassionate person and still eat meat. Being sensitive to the suffering of animals and humans is a good thing, but it doesn’t mean she has to let emotion rule her life. One can express one’s sensitivity through art, or through meditation or in other ways that are structured and involve interaction with others with similar tastes and temperament. And now I’m going to stop giving any more unwanted advice because there is nothing more unwelcome than unwanted advice.

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January 3, 2009

AmyV

Hi Gomp –

I have only one word for Bill Maher, idiot. It is no wonder we have problems with our youth when you have a grown man with such a lack of common sense. I never watch him and I think he needs to be taken off the air.

Even though, Nancy Grace and Bill O’Rielly can be quite oppinunated sometimes, they were both appaled by this video. That is why I never questioned or even doubted that Christina never went on Nancy Grace’s show. She would have eaten her alive if she would have made any excuses for these girls.

A lot of people think Nancy Grace is to over powering. She does stop people short sometimes without letting them get their point across. However, I respect her very much because she is the ultimate victims advocate. She is relentless with the Casey Anthony story but she keeps it in the spotlight. She wants justice for the victims.

It is to bad she never mentions this case anymore. However, with a lack of any movement in the court system. Not much new for her to report. However, I hope when she does get a verdict she dedicates a show to this case.

I doubt anyone other than Victoria’s family would agree to go on her show. Or O’Reillys for that matter. Those two surely would be like going up against two bulls if you were one of the defendants trying to make excuses. It would be very interesting to watch. Shows like Oprah Winfrey or Dr. Phil really have no interest.

Gomp – Your advice is always welcome. Especially when my daughter has problems with even looking at meat since that incident. They do sink to some low tactics to get their points across. Sad that an organization with good intentions winds up looking like a bunch of fanatics.

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January 3, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
I can sort of understand your logic with Dodge or germany and such . But to be truthful you can follow this logic to far.You keep on talking about that these girls are not evil .What is your definition of evil . To me it would be people who do evil things.we do not know any of these people to know wether they are or not .Mercasdes betrayed Victoria’s Friendship and then turned on BH ., Accused of stabbing some one .Tried to run a person off the road with her car ,accused of kidnapping .Accused of helping set up a friend to get assulted ,All before the age of 18 ..The girl who helped kill Matt Siiliman wrote poetry and loved animals . yet she to was involved in something evil .Does this make her evil.Does the fact that someone writes poetry and likes animals make them less likly to do evil or not to be judged as harshly when they do something that most would say is evil. the problem with this is there is no conclusions that could ever be reached . You can strech the logic looking for wether someone is or not . To say that this was a statement or representation of a
disinfanchised youth culture who feel abandonned by society is in my opinion stretching the logic to the point where nothing can ever be decided .You cannot change a culture why try .The indviduals actions cannot be controlled , We all have free will ..There are so many people who are in prison for just going along not being strong enough in character to say no.,This was 6 bullys who imposed thier will on a helpless victim some led some followed ,.This is about evil deeds not evil people .this is about what these 6 people did in that house that night to Victoria . .

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January 4, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

Of course if what I wrote in that post were the only post there is on this blog, it would be taking things too far. But there are over a thousand entries on this one thread alone and on the Lakeland Topix over six thousand and my contributions are a tiny part of the whole. I see my posts as part of a multicolored mosaic and my views and your views and Amy’s and Scott’s and everyone else’s all mix together to create a great work of art out there in the blogosphere. It includes remarks I don’t like and many I like and agree with, it all works together and all is connected. It’s not like some defense attorney will whip out a printout of my posts and read them to the jury and the jury will say, “OMG I was leaning toward voting guilty, but now that I have heard these ideas about dinosaurs and Dodge and Hitler and all, I have been convinced by the ironclad logic of all this to vote for acquittal.”

All I try to do is present some variations on a theme, and I only talked about dinosaurs once and Dodge city I don’t think will be mentioned again. Remember I’m the “compassionate therapist,” that’s my role, you’re the prosecutor, and that isn’t being sarcastic, it just means we all assume different points of view depending on our personality. What you just presented is an eloquent argument for conviction and I would never disagree with it. And you sometimes add the notion of rehabilitation and that is something that comes after the court has done its job. And since the court hasn’t done anything yet it may seem like I’m anticipating and jumping ahead with talk about healing and compassion.

But I don’t think it’s ever too early to start talking about healing and compassion because the minds of the perpetrators have to be prepared for what is to come. You can’t expect them to go into jail or prison angry and embittered and have some sudden revelation that will turn them around like Paul getting knocked off his horse. That doesn’t happen often. Usually it is a gradual process, and the earlier the seeds of spirituality are planted, the more chance they have to develop. When I talk about the youth culture and how these people were acting from different cultural assumptions than traditional people, I was not excusing their actions. But remember that even at Nuremberg (and this isn’t anything like Nuremberg) there were defense attorneys and people were judged according to fair and civilized standards and sometimes, for some defendants, mitigating factors were considered. Not every defendant at Nuremberg received a death sentence, or even life sentence. Some, I think, were even acquitted.

The kind of mitigating factors I have considered when I bring up Dodge City are the kind of thoughts that first made me see the perpetrators here as something other than monsters. If I had only the video to go by, and the reports that they joked about the beating afterward, I might still want to give them the death penalty. I’m really not soft on crime. I’m for the death penalty, and I don’t mind if violent criminals scream when they get executed. So if I am inclined to be easy on these girls, it’s not because they are girls (many girls I think deserve the death penalty) but because I have analyzed things and taken my reasoning to extremes. Every case has to be judged on its own merits and that means every case has to be looked at from every possible angle. I have tried to present a picture that gives consideration to as many facets as possible, and is fair to the defendants and brings real justice for Victoria. But it’s really for my own benefit that I present these thoughts. If I didn’t I might give way to blind anger like I did back at the beginning when Nancy Grace first showed the video and I just couldn’t sleep for days.

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January 4, 2009

gompertz

Amy-

I just found that if you key “ban michael vick” you find a petition that you might want to sign. Then I was surfing the Atlanta Wire Topix and found a petition that is either the same or a similar one. From there I found care2 petition site that has a lot of petitions dealing with preventing cruelty to animals, also found by google search. I don’t know if you know about it, just thought you might be interested.

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January 4, 2009

Scott

Gomp, I never liked Bill maher. Then years ago when I found out the kind of gutless value lacking person he was I loathed him and still do. I am not surprised Maher enjoyed seeing Tori get assaulted and imrprisoned. He seems deprived. But I am susprised he admitted it on national television because he is a public figure and I would think everyione who heard Maher say that he enjoyed seeing Tori get beaten would think he is a digusting and sick coward.

I too used to support PETA but stopped supporting them years ago for their outlandish behaviour. People are better off supporting the WWF, Humane Society of the United States or ther ASPCA.

Amy, you are being kind to Bill Maher in calling him an idiot. I can tell he gets off on females getting abused.

I’m partial to Nancy Grace and Bill O’Reilly because they have a history of standing up for victims.

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January 4, 2009

Scott

As for Michael Vick Gomp, his animal cruelty crimes associated with dogfighting wre atrocious and unthinkable except I suppose to those who sickly think it’s a sport. Vick will serve atleast 18 months in prison for his crimes as well as losing his 120 million dollar contract, his entire empire, his good name around the world and he’s had to file for bankruptcy as well. Plus unlike the Infamous 8 who beat and tortured Tori so badly and never even apologized to Tori, Vick has publicly apologized for his actions on more than one occasion. Whther he truly meant his apology or not I don’t know. But atleast Michael Vick apologized and has paid a huge cost personally and professionally for his crimes. When he has served his time for his crimes he should be allowed to pursue his football career again. But with Vick missing a minimum of 2 NFL seasons it’s possible he won’t be able to regain his skill level as a football player. I’m all for do the crime do the time and pay a price for your crimes. But if you serve your time and apologize then you should be given a second chance in most circumstances. And I believe the Michael Vick case is one of those circumstances.

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January 4, 2009

AmyV

Electronica –

I hope you have a nice holiday. That is a very good decision to never email anyone from a blog. You are a smart girl and their are a lot of strange people out their. You surely can not trust anyone you don’t know with your e-mail address.

El, I have a very tough question for you. What do you think it would take to stop some of the teenage fighting? You are the only teenager here. I just wonder if their is anything we as adults can do to show teens their are other ways to settle disagreements.

As you can see we have all made all sorts of suggestions. Just wanted to get your advice on some of these issues. Why are so many teenagers wanting to fight and is their any activities or programs you think will help get away from this trend?

Of course we all agree that punishment after the fact is needed in this case. As far as I am concerned anything type of fighting should have some consequences. A one on one fight is bad enough and uneccessary. A jumping should be handled by police. How can we help before it gets to this point?

When you get older and hopefully go to college or get a job their will be people there who do not treat you well. Unfortunately, that is just the way some people are. However, when you have a job you can not fight with people you don’t get along with. Even if they are very disrespectful to you. So what happens then? If fighting is the only copying device people know.

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January 4, 2009

gompertz

Scott-

The fact that Bill Maher is popular is just another sign of the depravity of society. Of course he is a sick disgusting coward and he appeals to the millions of other sick disgusting cowards out there. While I am certain that the people who approve of him comprise a minority of the population, it is still a minority consisting of millions of people and this minority has taken control of the media. Bill Maher is invited to appear as a guest by Jay Leno and Larry King who treat him like a celebrity. That gives him access to an audience much larger than the ones who watch him on cable. When a star like Leno gives Maher a platform to spout his nonsense and doesn’t challenge anything Maher says, it shows how deeply the sick values of Maher have gone in becoming acceptable to those who control the media. Ideas that 20 years ago would have been considered sick are becoming mainstream. I would love to debate Maher on national TV and expose him for the pompous little fool that he is. He sits there sneering at religion with that smug look on his face, and people don’t realize that Maher himself is very religious, in his own way. He says he doesn’t believe in God but he worships himself as a god. He serves his own instincts and lusts and his religion is the religion of self-gratification and he sacrifices all human values on the altar of his sick twisted desires. I could say a lot more but I know they won’t give me the chance to say it to his face in front of his adoring worshippers, not as long as the media are ruled by the likes of him.

The problem is we cant just turn off Maher and look the other way. Wherever we look, we see people who accept the religion of Bill Maher and it is harder today than ever to find people who stand up for moral values. The values of people like Maher are not moral values, they are the values they derive from their radical ideology and this ideology has taken hold. What makes it so dangerous is that the many young people who no longer accept traditional values are susceptible to the superficial attractions of the radical ideology of people like Maher, the ideology if instant gratification. And nothing offers gratification like sex, drugs, and violence. That video that Maher enjoyed so much was the product of the ideology of instant gratification that has taken hold among the young, and if we can’t or won’t change that culture we might as well give up.

As for Michael Vick’s apology, I’m sure he was saying what his lawyers told him to say. As a star athlete he relies on the public to support him and he said what the public wanted to hear. Whether you are a superstar like Vick or a high school girl in Lakeland, you are going to listen to your lawyer when you get in legal trouble.
Vick’s lawyers knew it was good for his public image to appear contrite. The lawyers for those girls want to have a spectacular trial with cameras and action so they were told to plead not guilty and say nothing while the lawyers attacked the victim because it it is good for the lawyers’ image to appear ruthless and unscrupulous for their target audience of criminals. While I hope that both Vick and the girls show genuine remorse, I don’t know if any of them will without some one to show them the way.

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January 4, 2009

Garland

Ugh. Good thing that I never watch Bill Mayer. It’s people like him which makes this country so sick. I do at least watch Nancy Grace, &amp I can very much tell that she wants justice for victims. I do think that people like those five girls &amp Michael Vick should serve some time for what they did, &amp should be given a second chance throughout life.

“The lawyers for those girls want to have a spectacular trial with cameras and action so they were told to plead not guilty and say nothing while the lawyers attacked the victim because it it is good for the lawyers&rsquo image to appear ruthless and unscrupulous for their target audience of criminals.”

I agree with you on that, &amp on everything else that you said, Gompertz, Scott, &amp Amy. I do believe that the lawyers are doing this for the thrill of it, of trying to smear Victoria’s name throughout the mud &amp having those girls giving out a fake apology to her. They ought to be punished for this in someway, as they don’t give a damn what they do to a truly innocent victim. Same can be said for Michael Vick. Are they truly sorry, or are they pretending to be sorry?

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January 4, 2009

Phil

To Gomp i
Thanks for the reply always enjoy your responses to my comments .I took some time to answer.I now have no problem what so ever with the proscecuter tag .mainly because it is accurate. Amy mentioned this to me about a week ago and it does suit what I believe and what I seem to want to accomplish in my comments You mentioned in one of your last post to explain what i meant by harsh ,Was I going back to the life in prison arguments that were prevelent when the assult first happened .My last post to you had nothing to do with my role as proscecuter but your role as the “compassionate therapist”.You were right to question that if my role as
the procecuter was interfereing with showing any compassion.Please do not be offended but you must be careful in your role as well .To me it seems that you want these girls to be better than they may be to be saveable . They may be mean girls who actually have no remorse enjoyed what thay did . and would do it again if the fear of getting caught was taken away . They may be evil. I have not seen alot of evidence that any of these girls are anything but what they have shown us ..As you saw concern with my”they must recieve harsh sentences “.I saw concern that you are looking for reasons to believe in these defendants. I am very wary when society gets this type of billing ..it was used in to keep minoritys subservient(1866 to present)) It is used to inflict viloence on women (certain religious societys ).but always used to blame the victim. I am pretty sure without having met you that this is not what you implied but you still must be careful in wanting all of this to turn out good for everybody.

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January 4, 2009

Scott

Gomp, I agree with you about everyhting you said about Bil Maher. Especially how famous talk show hosts give him air time to spew his crap. It’s amazing how a talentless lout like him has made it to the top. And I don’t know what’s going to hapen with the liberal backlash against Christianity and general decency in America. At some point most people will get tired of the attacks on decent Christian people and a backlash will occur whether the media likes it or not.

Gomp, atleast Michael Vick apologized and looked contrite. The girls haven’t apologized and their families and lawyers haven’t and probably won’t. Afterall Tori started this by allegedly trash talking those poor girls. Awww.

Hi Garland. It’s terrible that Tori who is still a minor has been treated so badly by the defense attornies. Tori alleged lifestyle should have nothing to do with her being assaulted and imprisoned any more than the Infamous 8’s alleged lifestyle should have to do with their attack on Tori. Tori was physicaly broken by those girls, emotionally raped by those girls and then violted both times these appalling and humiliating videos of her assault were made public. What a terrible time for Tori and there is no end in sight for her as far as this case goes. The victim here Victoria Lindsay has been victimized time and time again and she has major medical bills facing her with no income coming in. I really feel for her and thier family. And if there is a trail you can be sure these glory hungry attornies will be out for fame at Tori’s exspense. And that’s wrong.

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January 4, 2009

Phil

I think the bravest thing Victoria did was to call the police .If you think her life is more difficult now consider how hard her life would have been if she said nothing .I do not believe the abuse and bullying would have ended .the embarresment and humiliation would have to be fought every day at her school and at every social gathering of her peers . When the tape was released the outpour of support for Victoria and the univeral condemation for the defendants protected Victoria from any further reprisals .If the tape hadn’t been released to the public then the fact that she went to the police would have put her in danger just like it did when she called the police the week before because of the other girls that wanted to beat her up. Her life was changed when the beating started not when the tape was released .Again the amount of courage it took to pick up that phone after such an assult so perfectly described by Scott in the above post( “Tori was physicaly broken by those girls, emotionally raped by those girls”,)and the very real threat of worst to come if she said anything .Such courage should not be rewarded in the manner that she has been treated since .Compare that courage to the cowardly actions of these defendants and you wonder why so many people want these people to pay.

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January 4, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

Some play therapist, some play prosecutor, but right now I have to play the slow learner. It must be Sunday afternoon which follows closely after Saturday night and Sunday everything seems slow, especially my thought process. I do understand the part about the girls could be really the kind of people who enjoy inflicting pain. There are plenty like that, and they tend to be considered as “nice girls” by most people. As for the six, we just don’t know at least right now.

As for your expressing concern that I am looking for reasons to believe in them, I think I understand your point but since this is a slow day for me, I’m not sure. I think you say that there is such a thing as being too indulgent toward people’s actions especially if we can explain those actions as manifestations of cultural conditioning. So mistreatment of women is condoned because certain cultures justify such mistreatment for cultural reasons, and we say, “well that’s just part of their culture” or “it’s part of their religion” Of course you are right to think that I don’t accept that kind of logic when it comes to abuse based on the kind of excuses that multiculturalists always make. Even Geraldo Rivera, when he did a show on the mutilation of female organs in certain religious groups, made it a point to say that just because something is customary in a certain culture, it doesn’t make it right. But the prevalence of moral relativism in our society is what makes us indulgent toward all sorts of aberration if only it is presented as a “part of the culture.” And of course I agree that it is wrong to base our moral judgments on the idea that anything goes as long as it is acceptable to a particular group.

If I were a moral relativist, I would excuse the actions of the girls because they are part of a youth culture that has different values from the prevailing, or “hegemonic” culture. I think the problem of alienation of our young people is a real problem and needs to be dealt with. But it doesn’t mean I look at their violence as a cultural value that we must accept any more than I accept the mistreatment of women and minorities just because it is part of someone’s culture. Still it can get tricky when we define some groups as victims and other groups as oppressors. Look at the Old South where Blacks were oppressed.We might point out that poor Whites suffered tremendous hardship as well. We might recall that the term “white trash” was invented by rich White people who despised the poor Whites. And for pointing that out we might be accused of favoring segregation and other evils. Or, when the writer Gunther Grass started writing about the plight of Germans civilians in WWII and depicted them as people who suffered, he was condemned by many who previously lauded him. I think that poor Whites and poor Germans suffered and I can think that without diminishing the horror of slavery and the Holocaust. I can also think that the girls who beat Victoria are suffering in their own way without denying that they did something evil and their suffering does not compare to that of the victim. I think there are good reasons to consider the plight of Germans and poor Whites these days because we are trying to get beyond the divisions of the past. The election of Obama is a sign that many people are getting over racism. As for Germany, they are today an ally of Israel and will help defend Israel against those who are trying to destroy it (at least i hope so, despite their public dithering on Iran).

As for the Lakeland girls, I see reasons for hoping for the best. Not that I support the existence of a culture of alienation that embraces violence. As you stated yesterday, this case has become the standard for cases of bullying. On Topix, Victoria’s relative (who calls herself Unknown) asks how can Victoria ever move beyond this if that video can pop up anywhere anytime. It could be many years from now, she’s watching TV, and suddenly without warning there it is again. Yes it is always going to be out there, lurking and ready to inflict fresh pain and humiliation. And that makes it a very serious problem for Victoria to deal with. Since her pain is ongoing and has no end in sight, it is reasonable that the perpetrators
should suffer similarly. That is one solution, but even if they were punished as severely as possible, would that bring healing? Would that make the video go away? The video will never go away and all we can hope for is that the images we see can be given a different meaning by seeing true remorse on the part of the perpetrators. If that happens people who view the video will see the same violence but the meaning of the violence will be changed. If we see genuine remorse (and as I said that means intentions must be followed by right actions) then the video is no longer just a humiliation but the prelude to redemption. Now I’ve come up with some weird analogies but now here is the weirdest, but I think it is meaningful. When we see a crucifix what do we see? We see redemption, and not humiliation. The suffering of the Cross is transformed to victory when we accept its message. But the crucifix needs to be there as a reminder, as the necessary preliminary of the process of transformation. Paul said if Christ is not truly risen your faith is in vain. And if we don’t see a real change for the better in
those girls in the video, then not only is my trust misplaced, but I have to wonder how Victoria will ever find relief from the images that are always lurking in cyberspace ready to renew her pain and humiliation. Just like the crucifix the video is always there and that is why punishing her attackers will never be enough. As the image of crucifixion is transformed by repentance, the image of the video has to be transformed by repentance. But of course, there must also be punishment and I’ve already given some thoughts about that. Also please note, I’m not comparing Victoria to Christ and I’m not comparing the others to Hitler. But soemtimes analogies are helpful to make a point.

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January 4, 2009

Scott

Phil,

Gomp, it is a damn shame Tori will have to live with the video and images of her assault for the rest of her life. But like Phil said if Tori never called 911 and the video was never recovered then those girls might still be using Tori as a punching bag and bullying her. I only hope this case is ended soon enough and Tori can move on. Maybe then her emotional and physical scars can heal.

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January 4, 2009

Electronica

amy you can have many emails not just one thats not why. its really my moms rule its an old rule but im not gonne break it even if its silly. my mom says once you break a rule even a little you dont know whee to stop you have to guess and you can make mistakes. so thats why.

and amy yes i have ideas like so kids dont fight so much and also dont bully and dont beat kids who dont wanne fight. i dont have much time now but ill tel yu more later. gn.

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January 4, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
Thanks for your last reply.the real pleasure of exchanging views with you is you try to see what I mean as well as what I am saying and then to consider if it is valid even if it chalanges your on views.. A real gift.
and i was worried that that you would be offended Thanks again .
I will say this to you Gomp I understand the need for redemption in this case .the role between the abusers and the abused is complex at best .The betrayal of trust and friendship complicates this tenfold both for the for the defendants and the victim. .The real reason behind this is because if the defendants remain as i believe they are now then thier life will be empty off all thats important . Victoria does not have to do this .She does not have to forgive .talk to the defendants or in any way make it easy for the defendants to move on.As with all victims of senseless brutality Victoria needs to learn that she was not at fault and there is no responsibility for her to to do anything else .The further away from this event she can put herself the better she will be. The opposite is again true for the defendants . the only way for thier redemption is to take in what they did to try in some way to feel the pain they caused and make it part of who they were in order to become what they should of been all along .This is not easy at any age let alone the age of everybody invoved . Your last anology is what I have been trying to get accross since the beginning . ( well after all the harsh punishment stuff ) .
Scott
How many women and girls or boys for that matter who suffer that level abuse have the courage to report it .Again i do not know Victoria but crises tends to show the mettle of a person good or bad how she found the courage to pick up the phone is itsself encouraging to her ability to move beyond the confines of her ordeal. This is no small feat. How many battered woman report thier abuse or rape victims tell of thier assult or sexual abuse . How many teenagers suffer years of torment in silence .Of couse we see the thanks that these brave people get.How ever the biggest chalange is always the first step making that phone call .

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January 5, 2009

Scott

Phil, I agree that Tori has shown great mettle in her assault and the immense publicty about it. And she and her family have shown alot of class too because in similar circumstances most familes would be out for blood.

Kayla Hassall has her pre-trial hearing today. I think she will cut a plea deal with the prosecution. But I hope her “friends” Hardcastle, Cooper, Mayes and Nichols don’t think she’s cutting a deal just to testify against them. )

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January 5, 2009

Phil

Scott
If I were kayla I would worry if she got a phone call or text message inviting her for a pepsi at CVS or just any impromtu get together . But they all are friends so mayby it wouldn’t be that bad ,because if you can’t trust your friends who can you trust.

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January 5, 2009

Scott

Good one Phil. ) After Kayla ends up testifying against the other girls I wouldn’t look for those 6 girls to be hanging around together anymore. Their friendship days are over. Especially if their parents get involved and say they can’t hang out anymore.

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January 5, 2009

Phil

To Scott.
If i didn.t want BH to serve a long prson sentence I would almost feel sorry for her(really big on the almost) . You would think she did this all by herself .If BH took a frying pan,the cast iron type , and slapped her self up side her head about a dozen times she could have the pain to match the betrayal of friends Victoria experienced .

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January 5, 2009

Scott

Phil, it’s true Hardcastle was not alone. She had alot of support in the assault of Tori. And April assaulted Tori first and the girls were cheering her on and then Brittini took over. None of those girls were going to help out Tori so it’s was smart of her to be passive. Fighting back could have been fatal for Tori because those girls wanted her hurt. They even said it on the video tape.

P.S. – Does anyone else have problems with this site? It’s hard for me to access, scroll down and post.

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January 5, 2009

AmyV

Electronica –

It shows a lot about your character that you listen to your mother. Even if you think her rules are silly. I love her saying to you about breaking rules. I think I will use that one on my daughter if you don’t mind 🙂

It is ture the lines get blurred once you break rules. That goes for young and old alike. We all make mistakes. Perhaps if we were better listeners we would make less of them. You truly showed your maturity. Stick to these kinds of morals and you will have a bright and happy future. I look forward to your comments when you have the time.

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January 5, 2009

Phil

Scott
I am having the same problem .I think it is because thier is over 1300 messages on this one page . I know less about computers than most just a guess

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January 5, 2009

AmyV

Scott, Phil and Gomp –

Bill Maher’s I stated before is an idiot. I believe like others before him his mouth with eventually land him in trouble. Just when he is at his peak he will make a racial comment or a comment offensive enough to some minority. Then action will be taken. It will expose him for the pompous a** that he is. He will fall from grace 🙂 That is one good thing about someone that can not keep their big mough shut.

I was also offended by Gerlado Rivera when he stated that this was “not that big a deal, just a girl fight”. It was a long time ago so I know I am not quoting him directly. I guess since he enjoys fighting and getting his nose broken he assumes this behavior is part of life.

Scott –
I for the life of me can not figure out why they would need Kayla’s testimony. How many witnesses do they need. Cara Murphy and the tape should be enough. This ‘little girl’ should not be given a sweet deal. How many pretrials can you have in one case. Is their not some kind of limit. Like say lets stop this at 100. I also am having trouble scrolling down. It takes me way to long to get connected. Very aggrevating.

Phil –

I agree with you on the Hardcastle analysis. When you first watch the video your natural
instinct is to think the worst two are April and of course B.H. I don’t think this way anymore.

The most violent are not necessarily the most cold hearted. They just inflicted more physical pain. Anyone who has every been betrayed by one of their best friends knows this hurt goes way deeper.

If I were Victoria I would truly hate all of the girls involved. However, the lingering effects would come most surely from the ones who betrayed you emotionally. That is much harder to understand. I don’t think saying “I’m sorry” can ever erase that emotional pain. No matter how sincere it might be. Any friendships she had with any of these girls I would say would most definitely not be mended. The trust is gone.

I don’t think Hardcastle should be made the example of. These girls turned against her just like they did Victoria. Not that I feel any sympathy for her what so ever. None of these girls has showed any actions to be awarded sympathy or leniency.

I also think it was very brave and very wise for Victoria to go to the police. The tape was going to be shown even if she didn’t. I have no doubt it would be on the internet right now. These girls next victim could have gotten worst than her. How could she have ever felt safe in this town again? I do not think their torturing of her would have stopped. They always would have the tape for a sick thrill.

Since this incident happened not one of them has shown any think close to taking responsibility. Just having amother saying her daughter is remorseful is not enough. Mercades family and lawyer used the bashing the victim tactic as well. However, the truth will come out in the trial right?

What truth that Victoria was a bad person. She made more of the tape than what was there? It was quite enough for me. So I belive they all deserve harsher punishements than I originally felt was appropriate. They are not going to learn any moral values from their families. This has been painfully obvious. So what make anyone think their behaviors will be modified. The only hope now is by serving out their punishments.

It will be interesting to see how these girls “interact” with each other. Mercades and Kayla already turned. Cara Murphy as well. I am with Phil. I wouldn’t want any of my “friends” calling me up to CVS or their houses. They all betrayed each other. So of course Victoria should never feel any shame. She can sit back and watch how the ones that came together to betray her are turning on each other.

So when the tape is shown that will be a big part of what people will remember. The cowardess just began than. It continues to flourish among the six. So the “toughies” turned out to be the biggest cowards.

I can not get to a lot of the sites for some reason. When someone finds out what ‘little miss Kayla’ got can you please let me know. Thanks Amy

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January 5, 2009

gompertz

Hi everyone only a minute been terribly busy.

Here’s an interesting site to find out about remedies to bullying.
http://www.bullypolice.org/

Florida just passed anti-bullying legislation and got an A++
rating from Bullypolice.org while New York got a flunking grade, as I expected.

It’s not the computer, the site is just slow to access, whether I use my sleek Imac or my friends’ clunky old PC’s.

I’ll comment more later. Phil, you have to earn that Pepsi. Wonder what you have to do if you wanted a burger and fries with the Pepsi.

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January 5, 2009

Scott

Amy. I hope you are right about Bill Maher blowing up his own career one day. But the liberal media will cover for him that’s for sure. There should have been outrage at his comments about Tori not being injured and that it was only a girl fight. That is such crap. It was never a fight it was assault and battery as soon as April threw that first sucker punch at a defensless Tori who was standing there with her arms folded whoing April she was not going to fight her. And if Tori didn’t lean back at the last split second from April vicious right hand she would have been knocked cold for sure and possibly badly injured from only one punch.

No news on Kayla yet. I bet her pretrial hearing for today was delayed. LOL you can’t make this stuff up.

As for Tori Amy, I will never understand why she would talk trash to those girls when she knows they are strong and bullies and alot bigger than she is. Tori has delicate features and a slim build so she is not built for brawling. Maybe it’s the culture today where kids talk trash and don’t think about the repurcussions. But if Tori really did talk trash to those girls then she needs to be counseled because it makes no sense. There is no way Tori should have told any of those girls she would beat their asses. If she did that is and that really has not been confirmed. Perhaps Tori just wanted to annoy the girls with trash talk. I hope she and other teens have learned lessons from this and as well as from the crimes of those who assaulted Tori. This never should have happened.

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January 5, 2009

Electronica

amy i dont listen to my mom all the time and i dont follow all the rules all the time. its just when my parents say ok you can do this or that but you have to promise this or that and i promise well i dont break my word thats for sure. but its not like i alwaysd do what im told and neer do stuff i shouldnt im not like that.

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January 5, 2009

Electronica

and amy ive red what youve been writing and phil too and you jst keep on always thinking the worst of the girls and always believe anything bad about them and just ignore anything that doesnt make them look all bad.

and like whatever they do is evil. so like when kayla and merc gae cops the vids you think their cowards not that they tried to do the right thing. and when cara ad kayla agree to say what happens and they suare to it under oath well again you say they turned on britti?

and like cara said sorry and kayla said shed say sorry if they let her but you say they dont show their sorry at all well whatever they do you dont care youll just say you dont believe them. i dont think its up to me or you to say if they mean it its up to tori and god not up to us. and i think its real wrong to say they dont mean it if they do cause if everyone says that its like the worst you can do if i was kayla and meant it and everyone said no you dont id be real bitter for ever id never trust grownups to be fair.

and now you say the should get punished even more than what you said at first ad that was what i think like 5 to 8 years in prison and now you want more i think thats just cruel. and you know this sint family court so if its for years and not home arrest it must be real prison. and they all gonne be criminals when they get out and never go to college and stuff. its totally unfair and its very cruel. its just wrong wrong wrong grownups get punished much less for much worse and like i said i think when your 14 its like 3 years for one so really 5 years is like 15 for april so its just insane.

you say what ideas i have well i hae some but its no good if grownups are so cruel and unfair. and im sorry but thats how i feel thats what my heart tells me this is just wrong. and thats really it even at school many teachers and ppl are unfair and mean is why no one trusts them they dont do whats right.

and i used to think its just a few ppl who are unfair and cruel but im thinking maybe its normal grownups just pretend better but look around if ppl were so good whys it all so bad all around.so maybe ppl like to be mean and cruel and unfair even to kids i know some teachers do but ppl have to pretend but when its these girls or some other kids who are and ppl can be mean and cruel thats why so many ppl wich them stuff thats even much worse than what you and phil want.

if the cops arent fair and the laws arent fair and the judges arent fair to kids and like all these ppl can turn real mean and cruel ad everyone else too well no ones gonne go to the grownups for help anyways only when its really too late.

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January 5, 2009

Phil

Scott
According to Victoria’s deposition reported in the ledger .after Victoria called the cops

Lindsay said Mayes, along with April Cooper, 15, another defendant, called her to complain.”She was just saying that I was messed up and she was gonna whoop my butt for it,” Lindsay said.

Mayes later threatened via MySpace postings that she and Cooper “were gonna meet up” with her, Lindsay said.

“And I said that my friend had brass knuckles and that if she was gonna jump me, that would be my defense,” Lindsay said, according to the deposition.

She was resonding to threats .Mercades would know this for sure 100% and this is who was invited over by Mercades .When we heard about the trash talking and saw the result on tape we could not believe it .how could this be the result of trash talking .Look how much time is spent here tryng to figure out how these people could reach a decision to do this ,it still boggles the mind.Are they evil phycopaths , sociopaths.What are we missing because this can’t be the result of some insults and dating a boy .To expect Victoria to to have any inclination that this would be the result is unfair to victoria . Yes she knew that there could be some trouble but 6 people locking you in a room and to do what was done could not of and should not of been expected .As AmyV has stated time and time again .She assumed that Mercades would be her friend and make sure this would not happen. The betrayal was complete and the result was staggering in its brutality .

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January 5, 2009

Phil

To AmyV
I would also like this to go to trial but if a resonable punishment can be dealt and save Victoria the pain of testifying i would support that . I have to agree with Scott I doubt very much that these people will get what they deserve ..Still the longer it takes to reach a plea deal may mean a trial.If it was just 6 months house arrest then The deal would have probally have been taken.Can you imagine 6 months for that . that would be such a miscarrage of justice ..The only reason to get kayla to testify wolud be to support the planned assult evidence or the kidnapping evidence but she also just may have or would recieve a plea deal that is exceptable and have nothing to do with testifying , But those that betray would expect others to do the same so the i was afraid of BH crap is probally still in play. .You would think if they were that afraid of BritH then it would be the last person you would blame ..BFF just dosen’t mean what I thought .

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January 5, 2009

Scott

Oh and Amy Geraldo Rivera real name Gerry Rivers has always ben a loudmouth and he made an ass of himself describing Tori’s assault as a girlfight. Many others made the same assinine statement. Unreal. And Rivera has been interested in protecting the defendants since day one of this case instead of the victim.

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January 6, 2009

Scott

Phil, which girl said they were going to whoop Tori’s butt, Cooper or Mayes? The Ledger never said who said that. I think whoever said that was certainly a driving force in trapping and assaulting Tori. By the way I’m sure Tori would have rather gotten her butt whooped than what happened to her becaue what Tori got was alot more than just a butt whooping. But this does prove that some of the girls were out to hurt Tori.

As far as the girls being sorry goes we can only assume they are sorry they got caught more than they are sorry they pummeled Tori? They cheered on Tori’s assault like they were at a real professional fight. Do I think they are sorry Tori has permanent vision loss? Yes probably. But it’s too little too late. And we need to remmebr the only reason the girls stopped the assault was because they had to get Mercades grandmother from work. If not for that well I don’t even want to think about the end result would have been for Tori.

Electronica, we only want just sentences for the girls and nothing too severe. But a message does need to be sent to the teen community nationwide who thinks they can assault people on video and get away with it.

I guess there is no news on Kayla’s pre-trial.

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January 6, 2009

gompertz

Scott-

The exact statement is “Lindsay said Mayes, along with April Cooper, 15, another defendant, called her to complain.”
Since “Mayes” is the subject of the main clause, and “April Cooper” is in a dependant clause, that would mean the reference is to Mayes, provided the writer of the Ledger article was taught grammar by the same nuns who taught me, or someone like that. It supports the notion that Ms Mayes, being older, took the lead. Still, the words “along with” indicate that they were both willing and the odds were already two against one. That is certainly the trend these days.

Phil, I agree with your observation that Victoria’s so-called threats were responses to the threats coming from the others. That would include all the others who threatened her at the bonfire party. Apparently she was planning to attack about thirty girls and not just six. The Ledger article also says Mayes and Cooper threatened her with violence over Myspace. Sounds like cyberbullying. If the police have records of that, they have enough evidence to build a case even without the video.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

To Scott
It hard to say but I think April with Mayes saying they are going to meet .I have stated all along that BM has gotten off way to lighly as far as the focus of blame attached to the beating the more the spot light remains on her the worse she looks.She was the one who to me did this out of enjoyment and not out of anger, I see a 17 year old encouraging a 14 year old to commit violence for her own thrill..The fact that she held the camera for so long and her gross encouragements and the fact that she went with Mercades and /Bh and was part of that little escapade and that she did hit Victoria warrent her a stiff stentence as well .
I make no apoligies what so ever for my sentence recomondations . No matter where you turn in this case the uglinenss of this event just keeps on getting worst . Any apology I have heard is only that some one is sorry for what happened to Victoria . i have not heard anyone or thier lawyers say that they or thier client is sorry for what they did to victoria. Here is the type of apoligy i will believe ,

“Victoria I am so sorry for what i did to you . I was so wrong ” I acted terriblly in a way that shamed me and my family no matter what you said or did to any of us . you did not deserve this you are not to blame we are .
Instead we have heard why Victoria brought this on herself..The exception to me is Cara .I do believe that she was sorry for her actions .i think she should still face charges. But in her Audio interviview she said her own actions were not good no lying or or passing the buck .She probbaly deserved probation or 3 months house arrest .Victoria recognized her unwillingness to be involved like the others were .,which was full throttle.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

Gomp
Was typing while you were posting so didn’t read yours before i posted mine .

Reply
January 6, 2009

Scott

Gomp, it probably was Mayes who the writer was writing about. But Mayes and Cooper definately double teamed Tori with threats. And those are 2 imposing and tough girls I wish Tori never got involved with. And Gomp the police have to have some of the threatening emails the girls sent Tori. I’m sure Tori kerpt them. And iof the girls have threatening emails from Tori they should turn those over to the police. But since Tori never put a hand on those girls those emails don’t man much.

Phil, I agree with you that Mayes wanted to get Tori more for enjoyment than anger. To them Tori was a lightweight girl who they finally had cornered with no backup and they took advantage of that. Brittini acted angry on the video and April to a lesser extent. the rest were there for the enjoyment factor of seeing a pretty girl who the guys like who has the nerve to talk back to them get it. Remember these girls have a history of bullying others which is why they thought they could take care of Tori wihtout getting into trouble.

This case is stuck in the mud and I think that’s the way the defense lawyers want it. If I was the Lindsay’s I would be appalled at thte lack of progress this easy case has made.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

No I am not back to a 5 to 7 year sentence for these girls. Think I would have to read back several months to find that statement. However, the further actions of blaming the victim in court have not served them well.

I don’t believe the grown ups on here have been unfair to these girls. The simple fact is they are criminals. They commited several crimes and now the law shoud require that they serve sentences.

Cara Murphy did say she was sorry. The statement she made that upset me was “I didn’t think it was this big a deal until I saw the tape.”
El, that does not make sense to me. Wouldn’t it be worse if you were there when this happened?
Victoria did state that Cara Murphy did look sorry for her at some point during the beating. I hope she put the camera down at that point. So, her apology seems sincere.

Kayla I just can not agree on. She was sorry when she was being interviewed by the police. However, she still made statements about dislking the victim. The afraid of Brittini Hardcastle defense is a lie. She was not afraid. That is so apparent on the tape.

So I know her and Mercades lied about the level of involvement from the very beginning. She blamed her crime on someone else. She was extremely angry at Victoria on that tape during the most vicious part of the beating. While Brittini was giving her fist a rest Kayla was pointing and screaming at an already broken and scared to death Victoria.

That is not a mean adult talking Electronica. That is the way it happened. She deserves to be punished and it is a shame she is so young. Her level of heartlessness in this video can not be denied.

None of these girls have been given any punishment at all. They have all had just about all of their house arrest restrictions lifted. Their lawyers defense is to talk about Victoria. So how are grown ups not worth trusting?

Also, you are much better at finding artciles than I am. Not to long after this horrible crime a statement was made by Victoria’s stepmother. She stated that she had called to get the tape from Mercades. Kayla got a hold of the phone and talked very nasty to her. If the grandmother had not gotten involved, this tape was not handed over by these girls to the police.

As for teachers being unfair. As in all professions you have good ones and bad ones. How much respect do the teachers get from the students. They do not need to earn students respect it should be a given. They are adults. You would have loved some of the nuns I had in school 🙂

Do not mean to offend you. However, if no punishment is given in this crime, no lesson will be learned. Their are many adults on death row right now who say they are sorry for killing. So if after the crime is commited and you are scared of the consequences is sorry enough? No it really isn’t. Always enjoy hearing your opinions Electronica.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

To AmyV
As I stated earlier prisons are also filled with people who just went along
but knew better .Actions will always speak louder than intentions .Of course the most common type of prisoner is the one behind bars that thier parents claim did no wrong..

Reply
January 6, 2009

Electronica

amy like i said you always always always asume the worst aout them like even phil said cara said she was sorry and didnt make any excuses and phils real mean. but you just dont care and you neer get your facts right like didnt you know cara didnt have the camera the cops wouldnt let her go if she did. theres other stuff too but its no good to argue you made up your mind and you dont care.

and now you like blame them for what their parents do and their lawyers do you want them punished more for that wel it isnt fair kids shouldnt get punished for what their parents do or some stupid lawyers do.

and you know what i meant when i said they shouldnt be criminals i meant they shouldnt e like felons it sint fair to treat them like criminals after they get punished so they cant go to college and stuff like that. tori was arrested like five times most of it for beating up someone last time for beating up her little sister. and she went to court to and was found guitly and put on probation. so is shes now like a criminal forever? thats real stupid.

and i neer said dont punish them and you know it but you make it look that way anyway you try to make me mad its like its fun for you. im just saying its cruel for them all to go to prison for many years its unfair and its wrong.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

Amy
you are so right about Kayla .Those girls were made to give over the evidence nothing was voulentered and Kaylas interview I chalenge anybody to find where she admitted to doing anything wrong
Signed
The mean one

Reply
January 6, 2009

Amyv

Phil –

I have tryed in every way I know how to try to find an answer for a deterent to these types of crimes. That would be of course to stop them before they happen. After the fact if saying they deserve criminal records and punishment is mean I am guilty.

I feel this is a great part of the problem. Society has failed our youths by not requiring consequences to these actions. If we continue to follow this trend who knows where we will be in five years. The violence is only escalating.

As much as I was trying not to upset Electronica I also saw no actions to back up the words from Kayla. Yes she is the littlest one but not the youngest. The facts are well documented on a couple of issues with her. She did hit Victoria. She did get in the middle its rights on the tape. She did not hand over the video to the police. Mercades grandmother did that.

If she did not point the finger at Brittini Hardcastle professing fear it would be much easier to sort out truth from insincerity. Why was she the only one who brought their mothers camera to the house?

Reply
January 6, 2009

Scott

Amy, there sadly might not be a lesson learned here once the teens get off on house arrest. I have no faith in th systems and the Lindsays have to be disgusted by the lack of progress in this case. My hope is that plea deals have not been accepted because the deals aren’t as sweet as we hear.

Phil, Kayla will have the chance to make a real apology to Tori at some point. I hope that happens because it could help make up for the terrible way she treated a beaten and battered and emotionally crushed Tori during the assault. And we should remember that a couple days after the assault she was giving Tori’s stepmother attitude on the phone and by then Kayla had to know Tori was hurt and suffering in pain. There is every chance Kayla is a good person who just needs to be steered in the right direction. But Kayla did lose her cool during the assault and it’s inmportant that she realize she did and why she did. This is where a counselor could help Hassall and the other teens as well.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Marc

Amyv,

I am going to agree with you when you say society has failed its youth however, where are the parents? where is the legal system that is supposed to protect everyone?

Teens these days have been let down, but on the other hand, teens have taken it upon themselves to create havoc all over the place. They are threatening others online, participating in cyberbullying, lying about who they are, and threatening other peoples lives both in person and over the internet.

When will these minors be held accountable for their own actions? When will someone hold their parents accountable for the actions of the children they reared? We need to stop letting minors off the hook, and stop letting their parents point the finger at everyone else.

There is a serious problem in this nation, and I am sure we are not alone. It is going to take a nation willing to stand up to correct these problems. I, for one, am ready to fight.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Amyv

Electronica –

I have always showed you a great amount of respect. Please afford me the same courtesy. I have never said anything to you that can be preceived as trying to make you mad. As far as that would be fun for me I don’t have any idea where that is coming from.

Perhaps these are some of the issues that I am trying to get across. Disagreeing does not have to lead to anger. It is just a difference in opinion. Surely, nothing to have some sort of pleasure or fun from. Sorry. Electronica I wasn’t that type of person when I was a child and I am certainly not that type of person as an adult. I don’t get a ‘kick’ out of getting people angry for fun.

If you read my post carefully I do feel Cara’s apoplogy was sincere. I just stated I felt it strange she felt more so after seeing the tape. Victoria said she look remorseful while it was going on and that is good enough for me. When I was talking about the camera I meant when she was filming part of the beating. Not the video that was turned over by the grandmother to the police.

I may be wrong about Cara but I believe she may be the one who was truely at the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps just because April Cooper asked her to come along. Everything I have stated about her is fact and documented. Although, their is less on her because of the charges being dropped.

The problem I have with the parents you are correct does spill over to the teenagers. I have even stated in their ‘defense’ that the adults are doing them more harm then good. However, these tactics in court, if it does go before a jury, would not look good for these girls.

When you stated that is stupid I don’t think you meant that as an insult to me. I have never stated you did not want these girls punished. You have always said that on your posts. I have questioned you on what the punishments should be.

Please feel free to show me or correct statements I have made that are not factual. I go by the tape, the victims statements, Lisa statement, etc. Some inconsistencies in the truth with all of these girls. That is a fact.
So as I have stated many times before I will believe the victim over anyone else. As she is the only one who will suffer physically and the most emotionally for life.

If you are charged with a crime and convicted you will have a criminal record. That is not me being mean or stupid that is the law. If you do not agree with criminal records find a way to advocate against them. I don’t hold that kind of power. None of us here do.

Also, even though I have not advocated for jail time but alternative type of punishments. Let me say this. If these girls did receive jail time, which I find highly unliklely, you can earn a college degree paid for by tax payers. Even Murders are afforded that luxury which I totally disagree with.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

To scott
there is every chance that they are all
nice people to someone ,we will not know until we see them do something nice .that may be never because we do not see thier lives ,or thier actions .I doubt BH and Victoria think much of Kayla at this point . but either do i and just think that mayby somthing me BH and Victoria have in common. Our opinions are based on information as it relates to this case . I keep on saying this but this is not about evil people it is about evil deeds. Punish the person for the evil deeds they have done, how good or remorseful they are will show in time . So far thier actions sice March 30 should land most of them in jail.
AmyV I just do not waste time trying to convince people.I present my points , comment where i chose and try to treat people that comment here with with respect. The one time that i did not I was fortunate enough to have Gomp point me to a better place . This is not about convincing Electronica that you or i am right . with every one else it is an exchange of points of views .,not an argument on personal Characteristics ,Way before I joined this discussion group i read all the comments . you are anything but mean . I know that you know this as well .everey one has the right here to give thier opinions . I have a great deal of respect with the thought that gets put in to the comments that get put on this site there are differing opinion to be sure .We don’t just make things up because it sounds good or because it supports our view .We all have prejudices that will make all of us have a unique. perspective I know that my views are not based on meaness but on what i feel is apropriate response to the crimes coommited and to help to deter others or at least let the next ones know what to expect if it dosen’t deter them.

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

AmyV
was typing my last response so didn’t see your last one till I posted .Amazing how we are still on the same page .

Reply
January 6, 2009

Phil

Scott said
There is every chance Kayla is a good person who just needs to be steered in the right direction. But Kayla did lose her cool during the assault and it&rsquos inmportant that she realize she did and why she didt .
It is more important rhat she realizes that her role had a direct effect in empowering BH to do the damage she did .She wasn’t thinking about opening the door to let victoria out she was in her face making sure BH stayed wound up.

Reply
January 6, 2009

gompertz

Before I retire for the night I want to pose a question to any one who wants to answer. We have all answered the question what would be a suitable punishment for each of the perpetrators and it’s a pretty safe bet the court won’t take our opinions into consideration. But let’s pretend we’re on the jury for this case and sometimes juries, sad to say, get very precise instructions with a very limited number of choices. Like a menu where you can choose one from column A OR one from column B with no substitutions allowed. So suppose you are told you have two and only two choices in this case: One) Total acquittal on all charges or Two) Guilty of all charges with mandatory life in prison with no parole. No jury nullification allowed either. No one here wants either one or the other but what if you had to choose either one or the other, knowing that it would be difficult and you would be very uncomfortable and conflicted about the choice. But people have been forced to make that kind of choice in real life and not just in existentialist novels. Amy, Phil, Scott, Electronica, Marc, any opinions?

Reply
January 7, 2009

Marc

You do pose a very intriguing question, and after giving it some thought, i have to to say Guilty. Although the punishment would be very harsh, simply letting them off the hook would only proof to them, and others, that you can do this to others and suffer no consequences. Do i want to see these young lives gone to waste in that way, NO. But, i could not live with myself if they had no punishment at all.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

Gomp,
Not a real fair question but as i said earlier fair is subjective, To be on a jury you have to give your word that you can make these decesions .( they don’t let people on death case jurys who cannot vote for death..If i knew that going in i would not seve on a jury that would give them life ..If i was on the jury and we found them guilty then I woluld impose the guilty verdict that the courts ordered. .Personally i would rather see them all walk then serve a life sentence.

Reply
January 7, 2009

christina garcia

Look, no matter what happens in court, wether you believe in God or Karma Life has a way of taking care of its people. So many people that have mistreated me over the years have had very bad things happen to them not all horrific but somewhat nasty things. I am sure many here could say the same thing. Like the girls and the ex that came in that same house and hurt me, one by one I saw each suffer, and believe it or not I didn’t enjoy it. I was way down the road in my life when 2 of them contacted me for forgiveness, and here back in the day I thought they had the control over me, here I was long over my wounds, but yet they were still hanging on to the past. Sooner or later we all have to meet our maker!

Reply
January 7, 2009

Scott

Phil, at this point I just want to see the girls receive some just punishment according to what they did.

Yes Phil, Kayla’s screaming at Tori did empower the powerful Brittini to hit Tori some more. But I think the passion and dislike Kayla had for Tori was coming out of Kayla in a way she was not able to control. And that why I want Kayla to be counseled on why she lost her cool like that fater Tori had already been assaulted so badly. I find it hard to believe that in her right mind Kayla would want Tori beaten like that. But Kayla was not in her right mind and the same goes for the other girls. I think. And that’s why no matter the punishment they get they must get help through counseling and therapy.

Gomp, as far as your inflexible question goes I would rather the girls be acquitted than serve life in jail with no parole. In reality I hope they all get punished according to what abuse they gave Tori.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

For us who are calling for signifigant sentences should be reminded what the price the defendants and thier families have already paid ..It is easy to start throwing years at these people and we must always be viligant in our reasoning and concvictions .Or that the defendants are sitting on a beach laughing it up at what they did.
Below is a cut and paste from Rainman on Topix Aug 8 i believe .don’t know if this infinges on any copy right agreements.

Again from Rainman on Topix
“I’m pretty sure they’ve sobered-up quite a bit. All spent a week in juvenile detention, at least one day in adult jail (Mayes served three and Mercades is upto about eight), then at least a month under house arrest, and a daily 7pm curfew since then. The have other restrictions and the DOC checks on them constantly. Their families have had to come-up with tens of thousands in bond collateral, several thousand in non-refundable bond fees, and all except Hardcastle have expensive private attorneys. They were kicked out of their schools. All of their family and friends know what they did. Their attorneys have explained very clearly to them that a significant chuck of their lives are at stake. They can’t leave the jurisdiction without court permission. They can’t make any long-term plans with this hanging over their heads. In short, they’ve been thoroughly slapped around and the real punishment hasn’t even begun. Also, as David points out, felony convictions are forever. Google is also forever. There is no way in hell these girls are living happily and feeling that it is all over.”

To Scott
I believe counciling and other support systems are needed and should be provided to all that were invovled in this . After they have served thier sentences they have every right to and hopefully the will to be better then what they have shown to date .
I feel it is a travisty that anyone who is a victim of a violent crime is expected to pay for thier medical treatment.Talk about adding a burden to the victim.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

Hi Christina
I am going to ask you a very difficult question. I will truley understand if you choose not to answer . Do you still contend that Mercades didn’t act beacuse she was afraid of BritH. I have not heard you say this since your earliest interviews.
That Karma statement, you do remember that I apoligised for my personal attack right (lol).We truley do have to meet our maker at the end and we all end up paying for our mistakes one way or another .

Reply
January 7, 2009

christina garcia

Although there is alot of anger here for the girls, I feel like we really have to stop down playing BH’s role and stop putting Mercades’s face forward. I understand these are not any of your kids, and its so easy to say hey, throw them all to a bunch of gators. I will no longer guess what was going on in my daughter’s head at the time, because every word that comes from me is twisted and used against her. Just like when I made the statement in the very beginning, Mercades all of the sudden became the ” ringleader” when Tori’s statment was that BH was the ringleader. Phil, my statement was not made to be some kind of a threat hon…although you said lol I feel you were only half joking : ) we as humans just have to treat eachother as we want people to treat us right? Even though I hate alot of words that come through here, I don’t hate not 1 person here, not one. I am a child of God, and he has reminded me of this on numerous occasions. From the statements I made about the girls that hit me all the way to a jerk who took advantadge of me at 2 car lots, 1 got stuck with a vehicle that worked fine for me and the other is in jail for not paying off notes on cars in Lakeland. You see, each and every one of these girls whatever part they had will have to face up to what they did in thier own lives, not just in court. When this is all said and done, and you guys have something else to move onto, they will not have moved on so easily. A very tough road lies await for them. I just do the best I can day by day, sometimes I do get angry, but people who know me know that I have a heart and I do care.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

Christina 100% joking ‘for sure .
You have answered all of my questions respectivly and I give you alot of credit for that .
As well as for excepting my apology. i know sometimes It is harder to accept an apology than it is to give it.i did rip into you pretty good. . i also understand why you would not like to guess as to what Mercades was thinking especially to us here. thanks again for your reply

Reply
January 7, 2009

gompertz

Hi, everyone

First I have to repeat what I have been saying all along. I have never said that “I was afraid of Brittini” is an excuse. The reasons for Mercades’ inaction go much deeper than a momentary loss of nerve. It is not only Victoria that was betrayed, Mercades experienced some serious betrayal in her young life and those who have been hurt often inflict pain on others, even if they don’t intend to. All this has been argued here over and over.

As for the question I posed, I was trying to stimulate thought and apparently it worked. My own answer should surprise no one, I would have to choose acquittal, though it would of course be unsatisfactory. As for life imprisonment, the charges as stated would make it a possibility, and I respect the view of those who would choose it. Still, I must ask what happens to the idea of proportionality in sentencing if that were to occur. Yesterday the NY newspapers reported that Mejia Cinto, a gang member, was sentenced to 22 years for the killing of Anthony Senisi on the streets of Brighton Beach. It seems Cinto was feeling a little cranky and slashed Mr Senisi, who died, leaving his family in mourning. The report said that Mr. Senisi’s daughter read a very moving essay in court about her deceased father, which inspired the judge to impose the 22 year sentence. 22 years for taking an innocent life is so pathetic, and it took the eloquence of the victim’s daughter to bring about even that little particle of justice. Every day there are stories like that. At least 22 years is better than nothing.

As for the prospect of the perps gloating and celebrating if they get an acquittal, it is indeed distasteful, but they may have learned a lesson and their celebration might be rather subdued. Thanks to Phil for the Rainman quote, I do remember it well. BTW I didn’t know Phil reads Topix lol

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
It is the only way to follow all your worldly advice.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
‘ If you gave your word on the jury that you could reach that decision and you think they are guilty of the act would you still aquit because of the sentence

Reply
January 7, 2009

gompertz

The problem with the choice I presented is that it forces us to choose between two alternatives, neither of which is satisfactory. It is unlikely that the choices facing the court would be as extreme as the ones I presented, but the nature of the proceedings so far must give us reason to reflect. The defense team and SAO may still be determined to pursue their course of confrontation.

The Lakeland Ledger published an update on the case on Dec. 28, by Jason Geary. In the article he states that five girls continue to face charges. Furthermore it is stated that each is charged with kidnapping and battery. “The kidnapping charges are first degree felonies that carry a maximum sentence of life in prison.” Geary says no trial date has been set. He makes no mention of plea deals in the article.

If there is a trial and the charges remain in effect, we could see the two sides heading for a collision. The defense attorneys have stated their willingness to drag down the victim and the defendants and see them all destroyed. Apparently the lawyers want to present an image of ruthlessness to impress their more affluent (criminal) clients.

The kind of choice presented to the families of the accused by their defense lawyers is something like the choice I presented before. It offers a choice between two highly unsatisfactory outcomes but a choice must be made. We took our time and thought about it and made a decision, life or acquittal. The families of the accused have a similar choice, though not a hypothetical one. Their lawyers have given them a choice between destroying the victim or seeing their daughter spent life in prison. It’s the kind of choice that comes up in courses on ethics in school. Two people are in a lifeboat, there’s only enough resources for one. Or you are hanging on the edge of a cliff, you are connected to other climbers by a rope, your friend is dangling over the abyss by the same rope, and his weight prevents you from moving forward, do you cut the rope, killing your friend to save yourself? Sometimes these choices come up in real life. Sometimes they are forced upon us by diabolical agents, The nazis were very good at this, like politely asking a woman to please choose which of her two sons is to be executed. The lawyers have sat in classes like that and discussed these questions among their peers. I doubt whether April Cooper has ever listened to that kind of discussion in a classroom and I wonder if her parents have. We keep saying they have shown no remorse. I say that when people are in the power of ruthless attorneys, they will accept the scenario those attorneys present to them and remorse must seem like a luxury they can’t afford. If SAO and the defense team are as ruthless as they seem to be, remorse is a lot less valuable than it would appear to us who discuss this case here.

Reply
January 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

To answer your question, I would still vote for acquittal. We do know they are guilty, we have the video, we find their behavior horrible, but I couldn’t vote for life in prison for it, especially considering that murderers and rapists get off with a lot less.

The point is if we are confronted with that kind of unsatisfactory choice in an actual courtroom (and not just as an intellectual exercise put out by some guy with time on his hands) then we know there is something wrong with the legal system. If SAO and the defense team are really looking for a fight as they seem to be, the victim and defendants are faced with that kind of situation in real life and there is just no good answer.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

Would everyone agree to life in prison for the lawyers.
On a serious note I keep on going back To GregS’s train wreck comments
Colateral damage all over the place.
The more i read abot AC Lawyer the less sympthy i have for Giggles Cooper (I know i did not have much to begin with). I hope the judge or jury takes in account the added and needless suffering some of these defendants (through thier Lawyers) have put Victoria through.

Reply
January 7, 2009

gompertz

If SAO and the defense lawyers keep heading toward each other on the same track, that will be a bigger train wreck. All aboard!

Reply
January 7, 2009

Phil

To Gomp
How is SAO to Blame
They tried very hard to stop the viscious attack by AC lawyer,The judge is in charge of the schelduing and ruling on defense motions .Are they supposed to drop the more seious charges because the defendants are at risk for heavey time .Please explain futher if you can

Reply
January 7, 2009

gompertz

SAO did try to stop the vicious lawyer at the deposition but the phlegmatic judge allowed it for reasons known only to himself.
Maybe the judge is allowing a lot of things to eliminate any grounds for an appeal later.

There is no indication that SAO ever cared about justice for the victim. When they filed felony charges they were responding to public outrage at a time when many people called for life imprisonment and a large number advocated the death penalty. The harshness of those charges made it inevitable that the case would be prolonged. With more reasonable charges the trial would have been over and sentences of maybe 2-3 years on average. That way Victoria wouldn’t have been victimized again and wouldn’t have to worry about an upcoming trial. I think 2 or 3 years for Ms Hardcastle would have sent a sufficiently strong message. Instead we have the prospect of life imprisonment still hanging over the defendants and that is enough to scare them into accepting their lawyers’ tactics. It’s the lifeboat, it’s you or that other person, you can’t both survive. I think SAO created the lifeboat situation by filing charges that made it look like a life or death situation and that made the defendants desperate. I f SAO were serious about a reasonable outcome they would have offered plea deals at the start and not listened to the public pressure. Then the defendants would have had the opportunity to apologize and Victoria could have had some kind of closure. I think that the sincerity of that initial apology is not that important. I thin that remorse, like most things having to do with feelings, is not an either/or kind of thing. It can develop over time, and if the perps had received a chance to apologize it might have been less than perfect, but it would have been a start. Remorse evolves, like everything else having to do with life, if given a chance. SAO did not offer that chance. How can we think that the perps will find the ability to feel perfect remorse at some time in the future if they weren’t given the chance to start with an imperfect apology? Even Ms Cooper. Remember she’s still a child. All of them should have been given the chance to learn remorse gradually with a fair sentence rather than the either/or kind of “lifeboat ethics” situation more appropriate for a philosophy classroom than a real life situation created by unscrupulous lawyers for their own benefit.

Reply
January 7, 2009

Scott

Christina, if there was a tug of war for ringleader honors between Brittini and Mercades then Brittini won. That beating of Tori should have been over after April pounded her and then let her go. Then the girls started talking and more bad blood seeped out from the girls towards Tori and that’s when Brittini seized control.

I am having a terrible problem scrolling up and down tonight so I’m out. I was going to comment on Gomp’s post but I don’t want to scroll back up to re-read it because it would take too long to do. It took me so long to scroll down to the posting box that I forgot what Gomp wrote.

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January 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil-one more observation before I go out to dinner. If you are right that they inflicted this added suffering on the victim using their lawyers as an instrument, they are surely guilty of evil. If April is really enjoying this, then it’s hopeless I would say. But how can we know right now?

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January 7, 2009

Phil

Gomp
I will take this opurtunity to disagree with you very strongly .A judge and not the SOA decided that the defendants were to be tried as adults. This I wholeheartly agree with .The charges are not bougus these are what took place wether you or i believe that the sentences attached to the crimes are severe .The fact that felonie charges are attached reflects the seriosness of the crimes committed they would not be the first or last teenagers even at 14 to have these types of charges levied . Which charge do you see as not a just accusation to be decided before the courts .If they were reacting to the public outrage is because they saw what we all saw and ruled accordingly . There is no way they are going to get life everyone knows this .They do all face felony charges and to me deservidly so . The defense can also go to the SOA and offer a plea deal . That also has not been done to my knowledge.Last month we were all critisizing that they would only get 6 months house arrest .This latest turn seems to be more in line with what they should recieve. And do you think that the defendants would except anything that would give them a feolnie conviction ,I do not think so .At this point it is up to the state to get a conviction for the charges levied and with all due respect 2to 3 years for BHis not enough for her action at her age she was not 14 Kidnapping,Assult,forcilbe confinement ,Tampering with a witness . Do you believe she is innocent of any of these charges .

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January 7, 2009

Phil

To gomp
Have no idea if April is enjoying this . She was gigling during her court hearing after her week in jail . She didn’t seem to upset at that point. April to me is really hard.She is the one i think will probally re-offend Her and her family through thier lawyers are the ones really going after Victoria .That to me shows thier moral compass needs adjusting (Thats me being nice).The actions of her defense shows that they believe as she said to Victoria “You brought it on yourself”

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January 7, 2009

Electronica

amy you made it look like im for no punishment at all and then you made it look like im for letting go ppl who who killed someone on prpose but say their sorry. im not im not that stupid and i never said dont punish kayla and merc if they say sorry all i said is punish them fair and dont say their not sorry if uou dont know. so you make me look stupid and then you say always enjoy reading your opinions so its lik you mocking me trying to make me mad.

and phil saying your mean isnt like insulting you its just saying your mean to them. like if i knew britti and she said to me toris like telling kayla shell beat her up well im gonne beat up tori that will teach her and im gonne put it on youtubeso like ppl like her know if you bully someone smaller and younger you gonne get beat up instead well if she said that to me id say hey thats mean and it isnt fair just talk to her and tell her you touch kayla im gonne beat you up thats fair and helps kayla. and it wouldnt mean shes mean to al the time to everyone it just means shed be mean to tori. and its like that with you lots of years in prison is mean and isnt fair so it means your mean and unfair to them and thats that.

oh and amy i said whats stupid is calling tori criminal forever just cause she beat up a few ppl a few times.

and gomp i think that question is stupid like we dont even know f their guitly of everything did you read what the law says exactly like how do you know for sure its kidnapping maybe its says you have to keep her at least one day or one hour and what about merc tori said she didnt hit her but they chatrged merc with beating tori.

and mark does it mean youd give them life even f the law says one hour for kidnapping so youd just give them life anyway just to punish them? thats stupid and unfair too.

and anyways lets say theres a stupid law and t says if you help make a vid of someone who gets beat up oh and shes under 18 so shes a child well thas like life in prison and nothing else. and im on the jury. well id get up and say this is stupid stupid stupid how can you all do this id tell the judge how can you do this its wrong id tell the prosecutor how can you do this how can you sleep at night id tell the others on the jury this is stupid lets revolt cause its revolting.

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January 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

According to the affidavits the state attorney files the charges in the circuit court and SAO and the judge are both instrumental in the filing of the charges. But all respond to public pressure. The trouble with public outrage is that it can be selective. It can be triggered by factors that are incidental to the nature of the crime. When Nancy Grace first took up this case, I was outraged that some of her guests seemed to minimize the severity of the beating by saying they had seen worse beatings. Then when I got my own computer I saw what they were talking about. There are some really vicious beatings captured on the Internet and anyone who enjoys this stuff is sick. Most of these take a minute or less but the amount of damage that can be done in a minute is great. Some of those who commit these acts of violence are obviously very good at what they do and they don’t need a lot of time to inflict horrible injuries on their victims. We never hear about any of those beatings, Nancy Grace and Greta don’t seem concerned. And I see no sign that the police is following up on any of these videos. Who knows if the victims are permanently injured or dead. Nobody seems to care. There are many beatings that are gang-related and the police do not like to get involved because it would take a company of marines (like the ones who went door to door at Fallujah) to take on the street gangs. I don’t try to minimize the seriousness of the beating in this case, but we must remember that these people are easy targets for public outrage because they are not members of some major criminal organization or notorious street gang. If they were, this thing would never have attracted media attention. We delude ourselves into thinking that by punishing these people severely we are sending a message. The only message we send by harsh punishment here is that as usual the little criminal is punished and the big criminal is rewarded. As bad as this was, there are worse acts of violence that are carried out by people who laugh at the law and get away with it and the media don’t get involved.

If the defense has not taken the opportunity to ask for plea deals that only proves my point that the defense attorneys would rather do battle in court with cameras than get a reasonable settlement. The video was a golden opportunity for defense and prosecution to take advantage of public opinion and yes, those who filmed it brought it on themselves. I’m sure they regret videotaping it and that is how remorse starts and hopefully leads to a realization that the regret you feel for your own pain is minor compared to the pain you inflicted on your victim. And then maybe you understand and ask for forgiveness. Maybe.

I am ever mindful of the fact that the main concern is justice for Victoria. I just don’t think we help her by going to extremes in punishment. BTW we don’t really know what Victoria wants in all this, as far as what she thinks would be an appropriate sentence.

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January 7, 2009

Phil

To Electronica
i am really trying to give you the benifit of the doubt not about your opinions you passionatly believe your views are right and I don’t want a bunch of people on this thread that just agree with me .I like to hear different views and then of course i will respond. Its the saying that i am just making things up or as you said to Amy “And Phils real mean”
Why not say that you just disagree with me or please clarify what you said . any thing to have a discussion and not an argument . you have ripped into me at least twice ,accused me of just making things up and calling peoples ideas or opinions stupid is not having a discuusion its having an argument.,Why not ask Mark if considering other punishments given to other crime if he is being fair . .Again i don’t really have a problem with that but its hard for me not to believe its not a personel attack.I hardly agree with you at all but i read everything you say and i think this thread is stronger because you post here . does that mean i am mocking you.You seem to get angry at other peoples opinions when someone dosen’t accept your point of view.But how do you wish me to resond or anyone else when you say thats just stupid

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January 7, 2009

Electronica

oh and amy what do you mean you can get a degree like if im in prison down there and i like bio or history i can major in that get a real degree in prison? show me its true there.

i dont think so i read the girl who went to prison when she was 13 she didnt get any education at all. and no milk. i think thats why they put so many kids in prison down there its cheaper no school no kids food like in juvies.

and anyways if they make april and kayla felons i dont think they can go to college when they let them out can they. and lots of other bad stuff happens to them its like you have a big sign on your forehead your a criminal and you have to tell everyone dont you so no one likes you except other criminals. thats why i think they gonne end up with bfs who are criminals and friends who are criminals if you make them felons. and theyll have to steal to survive cause no one will hire them and theyll have no education. i dont think thats fair they didnt try to kill anyone or stab anyone or break her head or stuff like that they shouldnt get their lifes ruined forever and ever and ever.

phil i think its real cruel 4 years for april and make her a felon too. its so much worse for her. i mean if your old like 40 and you got good education say harvard and you made lots of money and have family and rich friends and great connections and had good time in hs and college and nice bfs and all that well doing 4 years in prison is hard but no so bad like for april and you come back and your still rich and have all these friends to help you and stuff and no one can take away from you the good times you had in hs and college. but for april well 4 years is like 12 years and its harder to be in prison for her shes a kid and shes gonne miss on hs and stuff and when shes out no college for her and only criminals will like her so her lifes ruined and its all for something she did when she was 14 and she didnt mean to really hurt anyone just beat her up but not so much shed have to go to a hospital. so i think its cruel.

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January 7, 2009

Phil

To gomp
I understand ,I think, in what you are saying, But to me if they are guilty of the charges laid than thats what they are guilty of .Do you think it was proper to charge them as adults , This is the first question .If the answer is no then the tape dosen’t get released and Victoria may be still at the mercey of her tormentors .I.but everything is handled in juv court .If yes again what charges laid against any of these defendants do you see as ones that should not be put before the courts , .If they are found guilty then they are guilty .that is what jurys decide and rightfully so . If the defence is sure of thier innocence then go before a jury. We both know if that happens they will probally be found guilty . then thats also fair. How can it not be.And if found guilty by a jury of peers why should they not face the sentences imposed.As far as other examples that do not get charged that is true in all crimes accross the borad .You can also use those examples in trial to prove innocense or at sentence hearings to reduce puishments . How do you go about charging BH that she would be gaurenteed to get 2 to 3 years .You would have to drop pretty much all of the charges against her and then everybody else just walks .None of these girls are in danger of life in prison .Thier is the real danger of felonie charges sticking and i believe this is the stumbling block for a deal . I believe this is the right thing for the courts to decide .Of all the fights you have seen does any of them equal this one .Not the total package from beginning to end .Why was the public so outraged when as you say his goes on all the time .Why would the police and courts act the way they do if this goes on all the time . this attack is in a league of its own .
If it wasn’t in a league of its own we wouldn’t even be commenting right now.Victims wishes are only considerd at sentencing .you know why this is fair especially in assult cases .Victoria can ask for lienentcy or demand blood and the judge considers it in his rulings.A plea deal may be the best thing but if it doesn’t work out does not mean a trial is unfair to the defendants.

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January 7, 2009

gompertz

Electronica-

You say if you were on a jury and you think the law is stupid you would tell the judge and you wouldn’t go along with it. If we had more people with that attitude we might be able to change a lot of the stupid laws. Juries aren’t usually told that they have right to vote their conscience but they really do.

Anyway my example was meant to be hypothetical. It was meant to make people think. Marc answered by saying he would choose life in prison if those were the only two choices, and of course they aren’t the only two choices. But he thought about the question and gave an answer based on reason. You gave a different answer but if I were ever on trial I would want you and Marc on the jury judging me because you would decide based on intelligent thought and not on whether you don’t like my looks or the sound of my voice. Still I think there is a point to that kind of question where you have only two possible choices and both choices are bad. The reason it needs to be asked is that lawyers like to present their case as if there were only two mutually exclusive choices and neither choice is good. They do that to juries and they sometimes do it to their clients. You might say the question is stupid but lawyers know how to make stupid things sound intelligent so their clients think they have only two choices. You know that April’s lawyer made Victoria cry at her deposition and brought up many things about Victoria’s private life that were nobody’s business and had nothing to do with the case. Still he did it and I wonder what April thought about what her lawyer did. Do you think April enjoyed seeing Victoria treated badly by her lawyer? Maybe her lawyer told April she had only two choices. Either you let me attack Victoria and insult her and make her cry or you might go to prison for many years, and when you finally get out you will be a felon, you will never go to college and you will never have a good job. Anyway April did not stop her lawyer from attacking Victoria at the deposition. If April were like you she would have told her lawyer that he is being stupid and that she would rather apologize to Victoria and not be her enemy. At least I think you would have advised April to do that. Maybe April should read your posts and learn how to deal with those lawyers instead of being intimidated by them.

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January 7, 2009

Phil

To Electronica
Thank you for the last post .
Any time any one goes to prison it is cruel no doubt about it . To send a mother away when she has young children or a father who is the main bread winner is an act of cruelity .I think a sentence of 3 to 4 years would mean 2 years and parole with time considerd for the house arrest . thats usually how it works . I will ask the same questions . Is she guilty of the crimes she is being charged with . if not go to court and prove it . But if found guilty then why should she not pay the price . If all your arguments if even half of your arguments are right then the most of the defendants will be found innocent of the major felony charges .Do you think April and Mercades would be found guilty.
We just can’t say put them in jail for 1 year or 6 months house arrest just because . it has to be for being guilty of speccific crimes , Any defendant feeling a plea deal is to harsh goes to trial .My opinion .better take a deal even if its not what they feel is fair,

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January 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil-

Since I’m not a lawyer I can’t say what charges should have been filed. We all have given opinions about what a reasonable sentence should be and they differ a bit but not by that much. And all our recommendations are far more severe than six months house arrest and far short of life, far short of twenty years in fact. I remember Greta van Susteren was saying they should have been charged as juveniles way back in April, and she was as outraged as any of them by the video. So maybe Greta with her legal knowledge understood more about what a just sentence would be than those like me who were happy with the adult charges. It is true that the main sticking point could be the felony charges which stay with you for life and severely limit your choices for as long as you live. That is true up here too, not just Florida. Guys I know who pleaded guilty to a felony as teenagers just to avoid prison were lucky to get jobs as messengers and custodians and usually wound up back in prison anyway because they couldn’t adjust. As far as I know charges filed in juvenile court could still be considered a severe enough punishment to satisfy the demands of justice but I can’t say. Anyway how can we be sure the court wouldn’t hand down a life sentence if they are found guilty. And with the video evidence how can they not be found guilty. There are many people who want to see a life sentence in this case and a lot of them write angry letters to judges and editors and they get attention.So we are right back to my “hypothetical” example which might actually come true. And no one here would think that were just, even if they think it is better than acquittal.

As for other beatings, this one is certainly in a class by itself in several ways. But where it is not unique is the severity of the injury inflicted. There are more like that out there, I have seen them. Just because they don’t take a half hour doesn’t mean they are not severe. Some people are vicious by nature and are very quick and efficient in inflicting injury. They don’t need a long time to destroy some victim. I have seen that on some of these videos and I have seen it happen in my presence. And I have learned to watch out for the cold efficient ones who specialize in inuring or killing quickly. So when people say this video was especially brutal because it was so long and involved confinement of the victim I could argue just the opposite. I could point out that the reason it took so long was that these girls were not very efficient in causing injury. That doesn’t mean they are to be pitied, but it does cast doubt on the idea that they are thugs. Maybe they wanted to be thugs but they weren’t good at it. As for confining the victim, you can see videos where the victim is knocked down and kicked repeatedly and that is a form of confinement even with no doors being locked. They don’t have to lock the door on you when you are laying on the ground and they keep kicking and stomping you. Even if they only take a minute or two. I have seen such beatings and I even helped stop a few but usually you are too late to stop them. Cold and efficient gets the job done and it’s too late to repair the damage. These girls were angry and got carried away but they were not cold and efficient. That is not an excuse and it may not be significant in the long run but to me it means there may be hope for them. Anger, and even the anger of hate is a form of energy and it can be changed to the energy of love under proper guidance.

I know the pain that violence brings and I have lost friends who were killed by guns and knives and sometimes the perpetrator is never found, or if found gets a light sentence. For once I would like to see a happy outcome ensuing from a horrible act of violence, and I’m hoping that this is the one time.

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January 7, 2009

Phil

Gomp I said earlier to be careful about wanting this to turn out good for everyone. I don’t know how Victoria gets justice . a proper derterent and statement is made and the defendants recieve “lienient sentence ” If you had to choose between bad choices where would you go . You asked that of us earier .5 years for Bh or 6 months house arrest if that was your 2 choices what would it be .

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January 7, 2009

gompertz

Phil, okay in that case I’d have to say 5 years for Ms Hardcastle, but I’d want it to include some form of rehabilitation. Maybe not martial arts but at least counseling and some education. Hope that’s all right. gn

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January 8, 2009

Scott

I am ever mindful of the fact that the main concern is justice for Victoria. I just don&rsquot think we help her by going to extremes in punishment. BTW we don&rsquot really know what Victoria wants in all this, as far as what she thinks would be an appropriate sentence.
– Well said Gomp. But as far as you, Phil, Amy and I go I think we all doubt Tori will get justice. I think the defendants will get off with light punishments and with Tori’s reputation tarnished by the defendants familes and the defense attornies. Remember what Schumaker’s parent’s said? The father said it was a fair one on one fight. LMAO! And the mother said Tori set the whole thing up. You can’t make this up.

One thing I don’t understand is it should be easy for April the youngest of the Infamous 8 to get off with probation and community service. But her attorney is slandering Tori every chance possible. If I was the Lindsay’s I would make sure I file a civil suit against April and her parents. Why can’t the Lindsay’s finally buck up and say to any defendant or defense attorney stop bleeping with us? Tori was viciously victimized physicially and emotoionally during the assault and false imprisonment and now she’s being victimized again by defense lawyers before a trial or plea deals and that’s criminal to me.

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January 8, 2009

Phil

Scott
If is not prying are you on topix as well if yes are you Scott from Hattisburg MS Or Scott from Flordia
Can’t tell from the comments
no problem if you like youe anominity just curious
thanks

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January 8, 2009

christina garcia

Deputy Torres was just arrested today for unlawful use of computer 2 felony charges….messing with files. To those who don’t know her, she was the involved with my daugher’s case. Still say there is no corruption here? And its not over yet oh no, there will be more. Believe that! Mess with God’s children and you will pay.

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January 8, 2009

Phil

I have been wanting to make a point for a while re the trip to cvs and the apoligy that took . to do this in the way i want means sharing personal history .which is never easy .My father was an acoholic and for most of our formitive years abuse went with this as it usually does .Ussaually directed at my mother as bullys of any kind pray on the vunerable. In time he quit drinking and for the most part my parents worked things out .this was after most of us were on our own. So Gomp I have seen the power of redemption first hand .The power of love and forgivness is very powerful Too bad it is not used neary enough .Every time The physical abuse happened wether he was drunk or sober was always followed by an apoligy that went like this . I am sorry for what i did but you should of known better then to Bla.BlaBla . You should also apoligise to for what you did also.. Then of course to either protect herself or us kids ‘never really sure which My mother would aploigise for whatever it was that caused my father to do what he did.When I read about the apoligy that BH exacted from Victoria my heart broke in remeberance . To Electronica whatever else you may think or believe about the happings of March 30th . That was not an apoligy, it was a continuation of the abuse . The shame of the victim having to aploigise to the abusers for thier role in getting abused is commen and degrading .

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January 8, 2009

Scott

Phil, yes that’s me on Topix. The internet lists me as Mississippi on Topix when I post in Vero Beach, Florida and Cocoa, Florida when I post in Micco, Florida. I’m not realy sure why.

And Phil, good point about how Hardcastle was continuing her emotional abuse on Tori by making her apologize to her, Mayes and Nichols in the CVS parking lot. How ridiculous is that?

Christina, will Deputy Torres be suspended or lose her job? If she did what was alleged it is wrong and she needs to pay the price for that. And did you hear that Sheriff Judd got re-elected to another term? Whacha think of that?

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January 8, 2009

christina garcia

His re election was back in November and its pretty old news, and if you look in the paper from today it says what happened to her as far as pay and discharged.

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January 8, 2009

AmyV

Gomp – This blog is getting so difficult. It takes forever to scroll down and sometimes I can only get down to December and then I have to start all over again. Can Trench Reynolds do anything to help with this? Don’t know just asking?

I believe I am the last one responding to your questions life or aquittal. You are really making this tough. First of course I would try anything I could with the judge to not be seated on the jury. I know you are not giving us that option. However, I thought I could try this tactic 🙂

My answer is not a good one. Acuittal means innocent of all charges. Guilty means just what it states. Since my verdict would have to be guilty, it would have to be life in prison. I was very much going to go for the acquittal answer because of the unfairness of the sentence. However, I broke it down into the two categories of guilt or innocence. I had to look at it from that perspective as of course neither punishment in anyway fits the crimes commited. If I would have voted for aquittal it would be from an emotional perspective.

Of course you bring up many good points with how much damage can be done in a much ‘quicker assault’. Physical damage or death can be inflicted in an instant. This case is different because it does have the additional 29 minutes. To break her physically, emotionally and spirtually. That is why it is unique. Of course add in the fact it was commited by girls that were very young makes it all the more ‘news worthy’. The amount of enjoyment and humiliation is not something seen carried out in a jumping.

The Casey Anthony case is a crime that has unique elements. Everday only God knows how many childrens lives are taken my one parent or another. So why is her crime so sensationalized?
The strange behaviors surrounding it. The unbelievably horrific act that was commmited that goes against every law of nature was not unique in itself. The circumstances around it are beyond bizarre.

My problem with comparing the sentences of this case to murders or rapists is as follows. Many injustices are seen in our court rooms. When people who will take anothers life and get 22 years or much less this is a total miscarriage of justice. When pedophiles are allowed to be released knowing full well their is no rehab. for this that is a total miscarriage of justice. When a rapist is given 5 years for his crime that is a miscarriage of justice.

So to say imposing harsher sentences on these girls than ones that have been handed down unjustily is sort of like the old saying “two wrongs don’t make a right”. Our justice system needs a total over haul. We can not impose harsher sentences on people who got off lightly because of double jeopardy. So, start with the cases you can do something about. Start making the punishments fit the crime.

Unfrotunately their are way to many incidences of fighting, jumping, etc. that go unpunished. The problem with most of the fights you see on the internet is either the victim choose not to press charges or their is no way to trace the source. If it was up to me they would all be punished.

This type of behavior has been tolerated in our society for to long. Fighting in schools. Jumping. Society as a whole has paid dearly for this tolerance. So in order to stop the escalation of violent crimes. It is time for actions to be taken. Gangs have codes of their own. So I am not really sure what the deterent would be there if they are willing to die for their honor than stop their behaviors. If they fight against each other not much can be done. If they involve innocent victim who does not make this a conscious lifestyle than all beats are off.

The problem with these girls not being charged as adults would be that some are older than others. Not sure how the law would carry this out but say B.H. got a 4 year sentence. She is now 18 and a couple of the others will not be far behind. Where do you send her to send out her sentence now? Legal question for you.

Very long I know. However, it does take a long time to get on here so trying to comment on everything at once. Their is no box to be checked on a college application for felon or not. Once you have served out your sentence and yes even in prison college courses are obtainable and a college degree is accessible. So this will not deny the chance to obtain a degree if so desired.

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January 8, 2009

Phil

Re slow page
I think its because there are now 1462 messages on one page .Why don’t we start posting under PLEA DEAL OFFERED. it will go faster I think

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January 8, 2009

Trench Reynolds

I’ll have a solution set up for you guys in a few hours.

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January 8, 2009

Phil

Wow with great power does come the frame
You are always watching

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January 8, 2009

Scott

Amy, maybe Trench will have a part 2 to this blog and we can start a new blog as in part 2 and that way we start over and that would make posting easier. Amy, if Hardcastle does time and she should it needs to be in adult prison. I think she deserves 5 years, probation and counseling with early release for good behaviour with time already served counting in her time served. So if Brittini eneded up in jail for 2 and a half years I could live with it. As far as Cooper goes if she gets jail time it should be juvenile detention because she’s only 15.

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January 8, 2009

Phil

One of the largest obsticals faceing these girls is the danger of felony convictions . If this goes to trial they may get this attached . Is a felony conviction deserved for any of the defendants Especially BH .BM or Mercades. This may be more damageing then any time spent in jail . what are your thoughts . I would not loose much sleep if Bh got a felony conviction. and if they are guilty of charges that are felony charges .then are they not deserved . I am not as sure as i once was (thanks Electronica ) .like to get your opinions AmyV ,Scott and Gomp.
Just asking this makes me a lousy procecutor I know .

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January 8, 2009

Phil

To Electronica did not mean to exclude you but you have made it clear your views on this of cource feel free to jump in.
I know i got a bit upset on the Phil’s mean comment , i have been reading topix more closely . That’s a freaking war over there . I have no reason to comlain if i am comparing how we communicate here compared to that site interesting to read don’t know about posting.

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January 8, 2009

Trench Reynolds

No Phil, with the black frame comes great responsibility. *lol*

Anyway due to complaints of the length of this thread I’m closing it down.

However you may continue the conversation at http://users.boardnation.com/~trench/index.php?bo…

It’s a message board I’ve set up for just such an occasion.

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January 9, 2009

Trench Reynolds

Ok, since you guys didn’t go for the message board I reopened this thread and I recommend continuing the conversation at https://thetrenchcoat.com/2008/11/19/pleas-offe…

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February 23, 2009

Sarto

I wonder how long it will be before this story really plays itself out. Unknown, apparently Victoria’s father, tells us on Toppix that his daughter continues the dark away-from-her family journey that brought her to that tragic moment almost a year ago. How long before she finally joins the adult world that she still seems to reject?

In the meanwhile, Christina and Mercades continue their own destructive dance. Granted, Christina said some imprudent things about the police when this whole thing started, but in many ways she seems to have grown. She put her financial future on the line to keep her daughter out of jail. She speaks about losing her house by the end of February. What did Mercades say or do to trigger this explosion from her mother? The only good point is this: They both said they still love each other. But how long before this story ends?

The others? Kayla, obviously full of regret, expressing deep remorse. April Cooper, bigger and stronger and scary as ever. Did the judge, who seems clueless, note her attitude? B. Mayes? She could still see some prison time, either as a juvenile or as an adult. B. Hardcastle? Scared of adult jail, shedding tears of sorrow for herself as she accepts her fate. What has she learned, this girl who enjoyed something that can only be described as torture? And now, she is pregnant. Will this girl ever stop making losers’ moves?

In a couple of weeks, sentences will be imposed and the thread will end. The future? Something tells me we will hear from some of these girls again. I pray for them all.

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