John Jason McLaughlin Found Sane

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My own commenters scooped me on this one. You guys rock.

A district court judge has ruled John Jason McLaughlin was not insane when he shot and killed two classmates at Rocori High School in September 2003.

Judge Michael Kirk delivered his verdict Tuesday. Sentencing is scheduled for Aug. 30.

Kirk said it was clear McLaughlin suffered “some sort of mental impairment,” according to The Associated Press. He added, “Numerous facts laid out in this case point to the defendant knowing his actions were morally wrong.”

McLaughlin, who was charged as an adult, could face life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Comments

62 responses to “John Jason McLaughlin Found Sane”

July 26, 2005

Rocori Mom

I wonder where they took him after the verdict… back to the psych hospital or to real prison?

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July 27, 2005

d

I think he goes back to the hospital until
sentencing next week.

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July 27, 2005

Rocori Mom

From the St. Cloud Times (local newspaper): “McLaughlin likely will be returned to Kandiyohi County Jail while a presentence investigation is performed.”

“Eller said an appeal will focus on the state’s M’Naghten standard for a mental illness defense, something Kirk rejected after hearing from numerous psychiatrists and psychologists.” I guess there will be some sort of an appeal 🙄 Eller, McLaughlin’s attorney also contends “The verdict didn’t surprise Eller, who said he had prepared the McLaughlin family for the worst. His focus continues to be challenging the state’s M’Naghten standard at the Minnesota Supreme Court. “I think we made a pretty good record on that, and that’s what we intend to do,” Eller said.

Sentencing isn’t until August 30, 2005. But they are making sure it’s done before school starts at Rocori this fall.

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July 27, 2005

jim

I love that the justice system is working here

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July 29, 2005

melanie van wyhe

we were never so far away from justice as we are now…Judge kirk admits Jason has a mental illness, but yet rushes to send this teenager to life in prison? I think it is pathetic! Why don’t we find out the extent of his illness before we put him in prison? How do we decide who is a teenager and who is an adult if we don’t follow the lawas we have made? Teenagers don’t understand the conseqeunces of their actions and that is why why are we being deceptive and trying out children as adults..God be with Jason and his family during this horrific injustice.

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July 29, 2005

Trench

A horrific injustice was the Bartells and the Rollins’ having their family member ripped away from them forever. Judge Kirk may have admitted that McLaughlin had a mental illness but he also ruled that he knew the difference between right and wrong and that his actions proved that he knew what he was doing.

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July 29, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Well, if you have a mental illness, you don’t know the difference between right and wrong, especially when in his ill mind he thought he was doing something right by saving people from cruelty. The victims are at peace, why not rehabilitate Jason and make somthing positive out of a horrific tragedy instead of creating more tragedy by sending him to prison, and destroying his life. I think if the victims could speak to us they would say to treat him with kindness, and rehabilitate him, because they are with God now, and God forgives and loves Jason. Yes, lock him up, but not in prison for thirty years.

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July 29, 2005

Trench

Have you rad the entire verdict? Seems like McLaughlin knew the difference between right and wrong to me. Something positive was made out of this horrific situation. Justice was served.

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July 30, 2005

kam

It’s obvious Trench has no fucking life beings that he has nothing better to do than this damn website what a fuckng loser:mrgreen: Trench has nothing better to do than fuck with other peoples business. Why dont you mind your own fucking damn business!

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July 30, 2005

jim

speaking of people who mind other peoples business… welcome to the Trenchcoat Chronicles Kam
Its a wonder that you were even able to type all those big words with a helmet and mittens on. Now… stop licking the windows of the short bus, get your head out of your ass and find another web site to annoy with your half wit chatter.
Other than that.. you should have been banned 20 minutes ago.

As for melanie van wyhe… How can you justify saying that, anything positive could come out of John Jason McLaughlin going unpunished ? No matter how you try to spin this, he shot another human being in the face after chasing him down. that is cold blooded murder, and deserves nothing less than life in prison. he chose his path and now has to travel upon it.
You also claim the victims to be at peace… are you unaware that the boys who are dead had families ? and those people have been victimised too ? The victims are far from peace and may never be fortunate enough to reach such a place.
Which leads to another question… what makes you think that McLaughlin is rehabilitateable ?

Brought to you by the makers of T.O.A.S.T.
‘butter one up today’

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July 30, 2005

Trench

Kam, what are you like 12?

BTW, Kam’s an AOL user so that should tell you something. 😆

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July 30, 2005

jim

it tells me everything

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July 30, 2005

Rocori Mom

Woah here… Melanie first, how many SANE people go out and murder? This is true and proper justice! It was determined he did know exactly what he was doing–it took planning and calculating to make sure he wasn’t caught before he killed! He also determined that the consequences would be worth it.

And to say the boys are at peace? To begin with, who made that decision to put them “at peace”? These two boys were vibrant, happy, well-adjusted kids with a life and a future!! McLaughlin took it all away from them.

If you read Minnesota law, you will know that all that needs to be determined is whether or not he knew right from wrong when he did this, and he most certainly did.

Second, Kam, you need your mouth washed out with soap! Do you have anything intelligent at all to say? Is there an opinion hiding in all that filth?

Third, and last, ummmm… I’m an AOHell user.. don’t understand that comment, Trench 😕

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July 30, 2005

douchebag

DisInformation’s “Everything You Know is Wrong” has an interesting take on mental illness “Mental Illness as Social Construction.” Czech it out. http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id2229/pg1/index.html

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July 30, 2005

Trench

Rocori Mom, you’re the exception to the rule. Most AOL users that comment on my site are like Kam. And for the aptly named Douchebag since you posted a link to disnfo it’s obvious that you’re a tin foil hat wearing mutant.

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July 30, 2005

melanie van wyhe

That’s exactly my point he wasn’t sane. People with schizophrenia sometimes do things like check security cameras because his hallucination told him to do it, just like they madeit seem to him like what he was doing was right to save other people from the teasing. he didn’t know right from wrong because his hallucinations were telling him otherwise and telling him to do things..Sorry, yes there were other victims such as the parents, families, friends..I do feel bad for them, but I still feel just as bad for Jason’s family and can’t see the sense in locking away a young boy who is ill rahter than a cold calculating killer..How can a psycho be so sensitive he doens’t want to tell his parents about his hallucinations because he doesn’t want to upset them, he’s worried about them agrguing..that is not the mind of a killer…

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July 30, 2005

Trench

How can a psycho be so sensitive he doens’t want to tell his parents about his hallucinations because he doesn’t want to upset them

Because he was faking it.

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July 30, 2005

douchebag

I’m sad you’ve pegged me so incorrectly, Trench!

Absolutism is so destructive! Just as there are decent police and doctors who actually care, there are intelligent, open-minded people who have found value in Disinformation. I take it all with a grain of salt, as I do the news and most weblogs!

I encourage you to read the article…it actually supports your view.

And I’d love to engage in intelligent coversation and truth-finding with you. Not name-calling. Your mission seems to be to find truth. I’m on your side in that.

If I were you, I’d take care in who you abuse. Especially when they support you. That’s not a threat, by the way. I just think the way to change the shit in the world is to pay attention and listen, not pass judgement and decide into which box others should be placed.

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July 30, 2005

Trench

Disinfo is nothing more than a conapiracy theory and leftist propaganda site. As far as boxes are concerned the only box McLaughlin needs to be placed in is a concrete one with bars but if it were up to me it would be pine.

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July 30, 2005

douchebag

I have found some discrepencies between some things you say in your bio and how you behave.

“I grew up an outcast. Small in stature as a child. Not socially acceptable as an adolescent. Thinks differently as an adult.”

Not so differently, Trench.

It is in fact, commonplace to surround oneself with those who have the same views and to spew insult at ideas that are different. It is unique to hear the views of others and engage with them thoughtfully. As clever as you think it was to talk about McLaughlin’s box, it is actually sign that you use quick anger and sarcasm to shut others down. This is not thinking differently. This is staying on your path with blinders on. This is what most people do. You are the same as most.

The box I referred to was the one into which you placed me.

“Maybe one day society won’t be so quick to judge people who are “different”.”

Maybe one day you will listen to your own rhetoric.

There are things to be learned from those with whom we disagree. And what makes this sadly amusing to me is that I was on your side about this McLaughlin thing.

But you have done to me what others have done to you: discriminated, categorized and dismissed.

I challenge you, Trench, to write something from thoughtfulness rather than judgement. Please don’t disappoint me.

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July 30, 2005

melanie van wyhe

No one can judge he was faking it until they walk in his shoes. Are you God? Only He can judge. He’s the only one who knows each of our hearts and the motives of it. Even judges are human and can make mistakes especially under pressure to please the multitudes. Yes, I believe he needs to be locked up in a mental insitution to prevent another tragedy, but the human race would be better of if we adopted a rehabilitation mentality instead of lock him up and hurt him more..hurting people hurt people…and the cure is love not moe hate..the biggest problem with our prisons is that they are college to learn to hate more, instead of love…if we taught our prisoners kindness by treating them with respect and kindess the rates of reoffending would drop drastically..as it says in Matthew 25:26 I was in prison and you came to me…

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July 30, 2005

Alyric

Quote: “we were never so far away from justice as we are now…”

I can safely start this off by saying you’re delusional. Or a mutant. 🙄

Quote: “Judge kirk admits Jason has a mental illness, but yet rushes to send this teenager to life in prison?”

The judge clearly demonstrated that Jason was aware of the consequences of his actions, thus he was able to recognize the difference between right and wrong. This is the sole deciding factor in a not guilty by insanity plea.

Quote: “I think it is pathetic!”

I think it’s great! Opinions aside, now…

Quote: “Why don’t we find out the extent of his illness before we put him in prison?”

Easy. You put him before a barrage of psychiatrists. You know, like, um, they did. And proved he was sane. Moving on.

Quote: “How do we decide who is a teenager and who is an adult if we don’t follow the lawas we have made?”

Wow, another easy one. They should all be this easy. 13-19 = teen. Say it with me. ThirTEEN, FourTEEN, FifTEEN…

Quote: “Teenagers don’t understand the conseqeunces of their actions and that is why why are we being deceptive and trying out children as adults..”

Um, I understood the consequences of my actions by the time I was 6 or 7. Unless he suffered from some sort of autism, which, you know, he didn’t, he was more than capable of understanding that pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger kills them. I mean, my god, man, have you even watched television or cinema this decade?

Quote: “God be with Jason and his family during this horrific injustice”

Yeah. Injustice caused by Jason. And a court system that won’t execute prisoners for crimes committed before 18. Damn.

Quote: “Well, if you have a mental illness, you don’t know the difference between right and wrong,”

Oh, so people with clinical depression can’t tell the difference between right and wrong? What about people with Avoidant Personality Disorder? Schizoid Personality Disorder?

Only a few “mental illnesses” are characterized by the inability to recognize right from wrong. Schizophrenia, for example. He was not suffering from any of them. Legally, the only way you can get a not guilty by insanity verdict is if you couldn’t tell the difference between right and wrong.

Quote: “especially when in his ill mind he thought he was doing something right by saving people from cruelty.”

I don’t know what orifice you pulled that one out of, but why not shove it back in?

Quote: “The victims are at peace,”

Sorry, pal. But you seem to be forgetting that the ones who were shot weren’t the only victims. Their family, friends, and to a lesser degree anyone who was there when it happened. There will never be any real peace for them. And are you suggesting that it’s O.K. to kill people, because then they’ll be at peace? I think you’d take a very different point of view if someone was pointing that gun at you. And if you wouldn’t, fine, that’s your choice. But you don’t have the right to make that choice for anyone but yourself.

“why not rehabilitate Jason and make somthing positive out of a horrific tragedy instead of creating more tragedy by sending him to prison, and destroying his life.”

He destroyed his own life. Cope.

“I think if the victims could speak to us they would say to treat him with kindness, and rehabilitate him, because they are with God now, and God forgives and loves Jason.”

How can anyone have the arrogance and conceit to claim they know what a random dead person would want?

Quote: “Yes, lock him up, but not in prison for thirty years.”

I completely agree. Life without parole is the only real option here.

Quote: “It’s obvious Trench has no fucking life beings that he has nothing better to do than this damn website what a fuckng loser Trench has nothing better to do than fuck with other peoples business. Why dont you mind your own fucking damn business!”

I could point out that Trench takes an active and ongoing interest in the community instead of trolling the websites of people’s opinions that he obviously doesn’t agree with, but that’d be quite redundant, don’t ya think?

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July 30, 2005

Alyric

(My apologies for the length of these two, you know me, I get carried away)

Quote: “People with schizophrenia sometimes do things like check security cameras because his hallucination told him to do it,”

This is simply not true. Schizophrenic crimes vary widely, depending on the intelligence of the person afflicted. Some are careful planners, others simply leave bodies strewn about everywhere. Read a couple of samples of Jason’s writing – he was no intellectual giant.

Quote: “just like they madeit seem to him like what he was doing was right to save other people from the teasing. he didn’t know right from wrong because his hallucinations were telling him otherwise and telling him to do things..”

Schizophrenia is a very easy illness to spot when it’s progressed to the extent he claimed it had. If he was really suffering from hallucinations this strong, someone – no, a lot of someones – would have noticed.

Quote: “Sorry, yes there were other victims such as the parents, families, friends..I do feel bad for them, but I still feel just as bad for Jason’s family and can’t see the sense in locking away a young boy who is ill rahter than a cold calculating killer..”

I’m sorry, you’re wrong. He’s not insane. He’s a murderer.

Quote: “How can a psycho be so sensitive he doens’t want to tell his parents about his hallucinations because he doesn’t want to upset them, he’s worried about them agrguing..”

He wouldn’t have had to tell them. As I told you, it would have been patently obvious to anyone that lived with him.

Quote: “that is not the mind of a killer…”

Actually, he killed two people, so yes, it is.

Quote: “No one can judge he was faking it until they walk in his shoes.”

Actually, it’s the duty of the courts and psychiatrists to judge that. To say that nobody can make any judgements is the most ridiculous of self-defeating arguments.

Quote: “Are you God?”

Yes! Sheesh, about time someone noticed! 😆

Quote: “Only He can judge. He’s the only one who knows each of our hearts and the motives of it. Even judges are human and can make mistakes especially under pressure to please the multitudes.”

Uh, if you’re such a devout believer, read the book, you know, Judges.

Quote: “Yes, I believe he needs to be locked up in a mental insitution to prevent another tragedy, but the human race would be better of if we adopted a rehabilitation mentality instead of lock him up and hurt him more..hurting people hurt people…and the cure is love not moe hate..the biggest problem with our prisons is that they are college to learn to hate more, instead of love…if we taught our prisoners kindness by treating them with respect and kindess the rates of reoffending would drop drastically..”

Your random rant about prisons and your continuing assurance that Jason was, in fact, insane, lead me to doubt your own sanity.

Quote: “as it says in Matthew 25:26 I was in prison and you came to me…”

I’m not touching that. No, really.:twisted:

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July 30, 2005

Alyric

I would just like to re-iterate, for the record, that Jason could have believed he was a thirteen hundred year old flying ballerina pig from Mars on a mission to save the world from extreme leftist soldier ants, and as long as he recognized the difference between right and wrong, he would have no case for an insanity plea.

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July 30, 2005

Alyric

On a side note, despite the fact that I (obviously) am little better than Trench on the subject, and really have no interest in checking the site out, I would have to agree with douchebag: at least to the extent that categorizing (boxing) people into groups, drawing lines, villainizing, et cetera, does far more harm than good.

Unfortunately, it’s very much human nature to do so – most times we do it unconciously, and we’re taught to seperate, categorize, and isolate people or groups of people (and ourselves from people) almost from birth.

The world might be a better place if we could all just get along – but I don’t see it happening until a drastic change in human nature comes along.

I didn’t read the site, but if it tries to claim that all mental illnesses are social constructions, I would have to disagree. Not only can we can trace certain incidents and people back through history that obviously were afflicted with mental illnesses, but our increasing knowledge of human physiology has given us some insight into certain illnesses, such as schizophrenia.

For example, schizophrenia is easy to recognize due to the altered function of the brain and heightened levels of dopamine. To put a thread of continuity into this post, I should note that it wouldn’t have been difficult for Jason’s lawyer to prove he had schizophrenia, if he’d really had it.

Oh, and sorry about the four posts. So sue me.

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July 31, 2005

morpheus

I could never joyfully think of putting a 15-year-old boy in prision or in the electric chair, no matter what the crime he’s commited. I know that it’s justice for the crimes he has commited, but still, it’s sad to think that three young lives, all with such great potential, have been ruined over this. I think the solution to this problem is better counselers in our schools, not the inneffectual, bumbling, Mr. Mackay types who couldn’t diagnose you to save a life. In my opionion, we need real counselers, to identify and correct problem children before they become a problem, to give children a more constructive outlet for their anger, and to diffuse conflict before it goes to the next level. Anyways, that’s just my opionion.

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July 31, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Thank you morpheus I totally agree with you, and am passionate about anit-bullying programs in our schools.

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July 31, 2005

Trench

Except it was proven in court that McLaughlin wasn’t bullied.

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July 31, 2005

Rocori Mom

morpheus, that’s the solution? How do you plan to turn back time? Jason is 17 yrs old now and has spent the past 2 years in a cushy psych hospital.

If you read anything about the trial, and especially what Trench just said, there was no bullying! Any other bright ideas?

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July 31, 2005

melanie van wyhe

There was bullying according to numerous newspapers immediately after the shooting..quotes from many kids who were in school with Jason..I spoke to someone firsthand that said he was teased extensively..it was conveniently twisted in court I’m sure..even so more and better school counselors focused on building each other up instead of putting down couldn’t hurt…kids aren’t going to tell their parents they pick on other kids..charming isn’t a good thing…the ability to talk your parents into anything isn’t a good thing..it’s deceptive, and shows a child who probably was teasing other kids..sorry, I do feel terrible for the victims families, but they are too close to it to see that their child might have been one who picks on others…I didn’t say a bully, but one that gives in to peer pressure…no one is perfect….

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July 31, 2005

Alyric

Quote: “…according to numerous newspapers…”

Yes. The same media that jumps on every school shooting and assumes that it’s because of bullying. Look at Columbine, where some people still believe the shooters were bullied because of the media reports – when, in fact, they were the bullies.

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July 31, 2005

Rocori Mom

melanie, you sound suspiciously like one of the newspaper reporters that hounded our kids for weeks/months following the incident. You say you spoke to someone firsthand who said he was teased extensively? Where were they during the trial? And you say “it was conveniently twisted in court I’m sure..” Don’t flatter yourself because you aren’t sure–even the psychiatrists who dealt with Jason admitted that much of the teasing was fabricated in his own mind. “even so more and better school counselors focused on building each other up instead of putting down couldn’t hurt” — say what?

I encourage you to read the new “development” in this case as Trench shows us… https://thetrenchcoat.com/archives/2005/07/30/mclaughlin-plea-rejected/

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July 31, 2005

Trench

And “douchebag” to respond to your accusations you took what I wrote entirely out of context. That was written a month after Columbine when I like most people were still under the impression that the Columbine shooters Harris and Klebold were bullied and that they were goths. Both of which have turned out to be incorrect. Contrary to poular belief I do not condone bullying but conversely I also don’t think it’s an excuse for killing. By the way “douchebag” your elitism is showing. And also you’re banned unless you can use a name that has a little more class.

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July 31, 2005

jim

he takes the C.L. out of class 😆

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July 31, 2005

melanie van wyhe

No, I am not a reporter just someone who is passionate about reforming schools to be tough on teasing, and not just say, “it’s normal, all kids do it.” We have to change this to verbally teasing is just as bad as hitting someone. It hurts just the same. I wonder if they rejected the plea agreement because they felt they had enough evidence to prove Jason was suffering from a mental illness? I’m not flattering myself in any matter, I’m just expressing my opinion as I have a right to. And sorry if I sounded arrogant..that was not my intention . I don’t claim to know what the victim’s would want…I was just making a reference to what the Bible says about who God is, his nature is to love, even the murderers…they need the most love because they are hurting the most…we don’t know if Jason is rehabilitateable, but we aren’t going to know until we try. Alyric..Wow, it’s something unusual if you knew the consequences of your actions when you were six of seven, since studies of the general public say otherwise…and Judges is in the old testament, the new testament tells the truth about the birth of Jesus Christ and how He died for our sins so we are not bound by the law anymore, so that means we live by the n

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July 31, 2005

melanie van wyhe

continued…new testment..which teaches God loves and forgives us so that we can do that to others..,a and that we are to love the unloveable in society which would be murderers…I’m not saying either that we sould shoot people so that they have peace..no we do have choices, and free will…but Jason was diagnosed with paranoid scizo..which is a form of mental illness that messes with a person’s ability to know right from wrong, but when it does happen we can look to God for comfort, and know there is a higher purpose that we can’t as humans understand. If you got into a predicament like Jason did I’m sure you would rather have me as your judge than Judge kirk..? Although,m God is the ultimate judge, and He’s full of mercy..we don’t deserve it, but it’s Grace he offers a free gift…

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July 31, 2005

jim

🙄 It always comes back to Jesus… why ? because you think there is something to him other than a man with parlor tricks (for 1st centery idiots) and you actually believe a book written by men who wanted (or had) power and translated by men who were even worse.
The god of the old testament showed no love for anything or anybody. He was selfish and full of rage, he took his people for granted and expected impossible measures of gratitude.

The god of the new testament showed nothing at all, neither love nor hate… only Jesus claimed one or the other, and the followers thereafter created and taught their own theocracy based on what they believed, NOT on what he said… just like Christians today.

Finally… dropping your argument down to half of what you just said is a cheap cop out. You can joust me with words like Faith and Grace because they are the only tools you have to work with… try having a religious debate using words like Fact and Proof.

Biblicaly speaking… Your god loves you ONLY because you do things that (you think) he wants you to do. That’s like your husband loving you because you wash the dishes… as soon as you neglect a dish, your ass is out in the cold.

When it comes to gods… you have chosen wisely. 🙄

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July 31, 2005

Alyric

Hey, jim, don’t let morons like the horribly misinformed and/or delusional melanie give you the wrong impression of Christianity, we aren’t all nuts.

Oh, and melanie, learn some punctuation, I gave up trying to read paragraph-long run-on sentences four or five posts back.

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July 31, 2005

jim

Hey man… if it werent for people like you and Trench… I’d about hate everything to do with that silly religion.

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August 1, 2005

classybag

Oh, Trench.

You HAVE disappointed me. This time banning me ostensibly on the grounds of my nickname but I think more probably because I made some valid points that you have found challenging. With the language you allow on your site I have a hard time believing the “classless” nickname bit.

So rather than meet me with a thoughtful argument, you have reverted to more name-calling and banning me. You think that isn’t bullying? It sure as hell is. You bully like hell. All over your site. Anyone who has a different opinion. Bully!

I apologize for taking that second quote out of context. My mistake. I thought I was appealing to your “good” side. Shouldn’t have done that, I guess. You decided at “disinformation” that I wasn’t worth your time. I should have believed you back then.

I won’t be back. No need to respond. But I hope you change. You’re obviously well-respected and have a brain in your head and an occasional sense of humor. I hope you’ll learn to communicate without so much aggression and fear of someone changing your mind.

I’m not sure what you meant by my elitism. I’m not in any position to feel like a member of any elite! Just trying to be patient and understand what the hell’s going on and how other people are dealing with it. (And by the way, can one be “elite” AND “classless”? Interesting…)

And…I’m a girl, Jim.

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August 1, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Fact and proof…I’m just going to say one thing read..Suprised by Faith, by Don Bierle..Jesus is the only God who overcame death, and the Bible is like a history book that tranlations have not been changed, but you’ll have to read the book for yourself..Don Bierle’s..He has his masters in Science He was an athiest who went out to prove the Bible untrue, but instead he proved the other way and became a christian..Have a good Day….

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August 1, 2005

Alyric

Eh, I’ve seen Trench disagree with others before without bullying them. I didn’t see the post that he banned, so I can’t speak for that one. But, if you *do* check back, for some reason, take a good look at some of the people (and I use the term loosely) that disagree with him. Try, for example, 7/31/05 “From the Mail Sack”. Maybe he’s just jaded.

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August 1, 2005

d

Melanie you are delusional. Are you familiar with the 10 commandments?
Specifically number 5 (Catholic version), Thou Shall Not Kill.

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August 1, 2005

melanie van wyhe

To answer you Jim, Why does it always come back to Jesus, think of it he was just a carpenter who lived thousands of years ago, and claimed to be God, and if He was insane it would have made the local news, and then we would have forgotten about the homeless c
carpenter quite quickly, but if He was who He said He was He would live on through the ages, and He has done exactly that. He is love, and a God of love..the old testament we were still living under the law from the original sin, which is a choice..we are free to choose because love has to be free what fun is it to make someone love you? We had to have choice and we choose to sin, and that’s why he sent his son Jesus as a free gift so you see it isn’t like a husband who will hate you if you don’t do what he wants. It has nothing to do with what we do..no one is perfect, He loves us unconditionally and paid the price for our sin on the cross..He created you, and He loves you..you don’t have to do anything, but accept Him into your heart, and believe he sent his son, and you will have eternal life..no strings attached..a gift.Christians aren’t perfect just forgiven. Jesus showed a lot of love..He hung out with the low life and the prostitutes.

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August 1, 2005

melanie van wyhe

To answer you d..sorry you feel I’m delusional, but that would mean millions of others are too considering all the christians believe what I do…the ten commandments are teh law, kind of a text book for right and wrong, when original sin separated us from God, since God is a fair God, He gave us these guidlines more to show us right wrong, good from evil, but He knew there was no way any of us could keep one law, everyone of us break every commandment everyday…Hating someone is the same as murdering someone, although the consequences are different to God it is the same, and that is why He sent his son, because He knew that only the blood of his son could save us and balance out the good and evil…otherwise we would have all been doomed to Hell, not because God is evil, but because He is love, and coudn’t deny himself and so He had to give us a free choice…

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August 1, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Oh, one other thing Jim, the Bible is written by God not men..it is the inspired word of God…And all the writing in red is actually what Jesus(God) said himself..

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August 1, 2005

d

OH Please 🙄

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August 1, 2005

jim

classybag

“And…I’m a girl, Jim.”

Sorry kid… didn’t mean to insult your vagina 😆

melanie van wyhe:

I don’t like to attack Christianity because Trench and many friends here are followers of the religion. However, your argument was so utterly ignorant I’ll be happy to point out the flaws.

To start with, I have read your bible (several times) and even held alternate versions side by side in comparison. I know your bible better than most people who like to call themselves theologians. I even still own a copy of the New International Version along with a handful of bibles for alternate religions including the sudo-christian cults (namely Jehovah’s Witnesses and The Mormons).

“Jesus is the only God who overcame death, and the Bible is like a history book that translations have not been changed”

1: The Jesus thing is back to that stupid useless fallback word “faith” because there is no evidence nor historical proof of his resurrection. the only proof you have is in the same book you call the truth… 1 book does not equal fact. I would like to see something written by the Romans that says “holy shit !! he came back !!” or along those lines anyway

2: The translations WERE changed and also poorly done due to rushing on the catholic church’s part. Not to mention that the Catholics and later the Lutherans and Protestants took it upon themselves to omit scrolls because they “didn’t deem them important”

“and if He was insane it would have made the local news, and then we would have forgotten about the homeless carpenter quite quickly, but if He was who He said He was He would live on through the ages,”

OK… first off, There was no local news in the first century but since you brought this up… why is it that only the bible makes mention of any miracles he performed ? why didn’t any Roman history speak of this ? how about the little villages he constantly visited ? Wouldn’t there be anything other than letters from the nitwits who spread his propaganda ? ok and how about this ? not every crazy guy who walks down 5Th avenue in Manhattan NY, claiming to be god, gets headlines in the New York Times (I know I know… Newsday’s got it :lol:) So why then aren’t they god ? the newspapers didn’t write about them. Shit ?! whats a false prophet got to do to get proven false ? drink the koolade ?

“We had to have choice and we choose to sin, and that’s why he sent his son Jesus as a free gift”

Uh… no. If you read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy you would be aware that the law was designed to be impossible to follow (to the letter anyway) God (biblicaly speaking) even made it so that sacrificing animals was imperative as he knew no one could follow it. Jesus wasn’t a free gift, he was a necessary counterpart because god was too strict. Jesus’ death was a replacement for the lamb that was sacrificed before the exodus. Thus proving that god made a law that was impossible for any man to follow. And before you try to jump on me about “Jesus was a man, and followed the law” because

1: Either he was a man or he was god… both is unacceptable because god can not sin and man can not be perfect, so cut that lie out of your vocabulary… If he was a man than his personal sacrifice was for nothing… if he was god than his perfect life was null because he is perfect therefore knows not of our struggle and still provided us with nothing.

2: Jesus made sacrifices like the rest of the Jews proving that he was imperfect as the rest. If he lacked sin he wouldn’t have had to sacrifice because he would have had nothing to atone for.

“Jesus showed a lot of love..He hung out with the low life and the prostitutes.”

Funny how most of his followers today, still are lowlifes and prostitutes. Take a census at your personal church and ask about peoples history’s. You will find that all except the kids who were force fed Jesus have shady pasts (and probably present as well) and the preacher’s kids are worst of all.

“Hating someone is the same as murdering someone,”

This sort of thing kills me. How can you even begin to make a statement like that and take yourself seriously ? I know I know… its in the bible. Read on cuz my answer to this is after your next incredibly foolish statement.

“the Bible is written by God not men..it is the inspired word of God…And all the writing in red is actually what Jesus(God) said himself.. “

More silliness at work here. OK God wrote it ? weird because every theologian will tell you that moses wrote the first 5 books and your precious new testament was written by apostles of Jesus.

Your statement makes me laugh cuz I can just picture god (as Steh McFarlane draws him :lol:) with a red highlighter, marking over the “Jesus parts”

Nevertheless, Men did write your holy book… and every lie enclosed.

Im not going to say more about this subject… if you think you can argue this subject with me and still keep your faith after a month… email me at Entertainmentandtoast@gmail.com
carefull, I could have you chanting for buddah if your faith is not strong enough

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August 1, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Hi Jim, I’m not going to argue with you anymore, and my faith is rock solid because how He has revealed himself to me through my life experiences, through loving people, answered prayers, and overwhelming peace that nothing in this world can touch. I’m not giving my life to a fat little silly statue that is dead, I want a living God who I can have a relationship with just by talking to him. And I’m not be sarcastic, just real. Please read the book..”Surpised by Faith, by Don Bierle. As I said he was a skeptic, and has his masters in New Testament Studies, and a Ph.D and Masters in life Sciences..There have been many actual things found to prove the bible true…such as tribes from the
Bible that are still in existence today..and so much much more, such as the rainbow, findings of the ark, tablets that say a certain city was a trading city of Soddom&ampGommorah , but if you want a real debate conact Don at http://www.faithsearch.org
and then tell me what you think.

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August 2, 2005

Alyric

I have no problem with faith, melanie. It’s blind, delusional faith, particularly accompanied by incoherent rambling (like yours) that bothers me. It’s really quite disturbing, and I consider myself a Christian. You and others like you are one of the main reasons Christianity gets a bad rap.

Closing your eyes and humming doesn’t change the facts or the world around you. For example, much was lost in the translation of the Bible. Not even intentionally – there are words and phrases that just cannot be accurately translated between languages. Did you know that there was a humorous overtone to much of the original Bible as written in Hebrew? Didn’t think so. Learn to think for yourself, stop using the Bible as a brain.

If all God wants are mindless followers he’ll have to do without me. Somehow, though, I suspect he values intelligence.

Since you’re so fond of quotes, try this one: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

Open your eyes.

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August 2, 2005

jim

these are the christians I love.

Thanks dude, no christian has said it better than you, so far.

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August 2, 2005

melanie van wyhe

I’m sorry if you feel I’m using the Bible, and not thinking on my own, but I still say read Bierle who is a scientist before you attack me..I was skeptical about my faith before, but since I found the validity of the translations more than any other book..among other things, the Bible has everything in it, and I am a writer, and I understand how writing is inspired not always thought about, it just comes out of you, like a gift, I think sometimes people are just afraid of giving up their control, the bible is like an instruction book, say like a computer comes with a manual..so the bible is the manual God gave for how work..I wouldn’t want to argue with whoever created his whole world, and not to mention the complexities of the human body..sorry if I ramble…it’s just passion..

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August 2, 2005

melanie van wyhe

Sorry, I forgot I said I wasn’t going to argue…so I’m done.

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August 2, 2005

jim

I never read instructions 😆

kidding, I cant pick on you too much. I do believe in God, I just find Christianity to be a ridiculous organized form of mass control. And the fact that I’M not worthy, due to a sin I did not commit and a law I couldn’t possibly follow therefore, in need of a gift I never asked for… Its a bit silly to me and I refuse to be a part of it.

Not to mention the impossibility’s displayed in the bible.

Do you know that the ark was (even today with all our technology) impossible ? I’ll elaborate… a mass was found in the mountains of Ararat (think I misspelled that) and is assumed to be the missing ark belonging to Noah. this ship shaped object is over a thousand feet long. after much hardships getting to it (due to Middle eastern laws) they found this mass to be roughly 8 or so stories in height and 100 or so feet wide. Is this the ark ? No, The Bible states that God commanded Noah to build the Ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high (3 stories with 15 foot ceilings)bit different huh ?
does this prove that the great world wide flood of the bible is true ? NO… and it doesn’t answer the question… How did Noah fit 2 of EVERY animal on his great ark ? That’s even going by the Sunday school story so how many animals did Noah bring ? Genesis 8:19-21 says two of every creature and “every kind of food that is to be eaten” but 7:2&amp3 say “seven of every clean animal, two of every unclean animal and seven of every bird”
while the discrepancy is weird enough here is the most important question, Do you really believe that anyone could fit 2 of every living creature on a ship that small ? are you aware that there are millions of species of creatures on earth NOW never mind 10+ thousand years ago ? There is no way that million upon millions of animals could fit in a 101,250 square foot boat. lets not forget that more than half of the worlds creatures are carnivorous so who was keeping the lions away from the caribou ? oh and 40 days they were on the water… did god take away their need for a bowel movement ? I’d hope so because millions of animals in a small box would do a lot of pooping and that would surely keep Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives busy as hell. 2 of all the worlds creatures would not fit on our largest modern ship and that’s roughly 1500 feet long, 200 feet wide and 150 feet tall… that’s 4,500,000 square feet … that’s 40 times the size of the stupid ark.

yeah I said I would take it outside too, but Im not sorry

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August 2, 2005

Alyric

Quote: “I am a writer”

Please tell me English isn’t your native language. Please.

Quote: “the bible is like an instruction book”

Interesting instruction book. Here’s a few things to consider. There’s plenty more, but hey, either you’re going to take a closer look or not, the rest is up to you.

Genesis 22:1 James 1:13
1 Samuel 17:23,50 2 Samuel 21:19
1 Samuel 31:4-6 2 Samuel 1:6-10
1 Kings 8:46 1 John 3:9
Acts 9:7 Acts 22:9

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August 2, 2005

Alyric

As for Noah, don’t forget, jim, that in his day a much smaller area could easily have been considered “the whole world”.

I strongly suspect that the flood mentioned in Genesis was regional, but probably covered a very large area nonetheless. There has been some evidence in this regard, but I’m afraid no specifics come to mind at the moment.

Anyway, even if you consider, what? An area the size of a medium country flooded, the ark theory becomes much more plausible – both in having room for the animals on his boat, and the survival of the species.

In the end, it would have seemed to Noah as if the entire world had flooded, and in the writing of Genesis, that’s really all that mattered.

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August 2, 2005

jim

That’s all well and good, but the “inspired word of god” states that god himself said (Genesis 6:7) “So the Lord said ‘I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that i have made them”
…and again speaking to Noah (Genesis 6:13) “So god said to Noah ‘ I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.”

This is god saying earth not Noah…

Also, Noah did not write genesis… Moses did. Either he was inspired by god to write this or he got this story by means of hand me down, camp fire stories. If the second is the case than the bible is not the inspired word of god.. if the first is true than the flood should have taken place as worded via the bible, leaving my questions relevant.

either way this could not have happened

NOW !! there ARE history’s that date further back than the bible. Specifically the Chinese history, who claim that there WAS a major flood on the other side of the world. And like I said before. The Tigris and Euphrates were known to flood the region quite badly. But to push a ship that high up Ararat ?!? I don’t think so.

I shit on Christianity a lot, and to be fair there are millions of unanswered questions that will never be answered. Christians and Scientists alike reach for the smallest trill and claim that as evidence towards their preferred goal.

I say this…
1: There is (or was) a creator because no other answer is possible. while energy is the only self propelled and sustaining object in the universe… its destruction does not create at such a level of perfection.
2: He/she/it has long since forgotten this little spot of the great universe. why not ? its been millions upon millions of years. I’m sure this creator has been quite busy if said creator is still in existence.
3: understanding of this has made man more in tune with a desire to better understand his creator. Also fear of the unknown has made him more dependent upon the creator.
4: Governments and men in power have thrived upon this and created a religious history in order to instill fear and obtain control.
5: letting go of this fear and just enjoying the snippet of time your given, will help you better enjoy it.

this is my religious believe system and I call it analytic lucidity… I think Queensryche was gonna write a song about it 😆

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August 2, 2005

jim

oh… since we have been way off topic and possibly on the verge of aggravating Trench for been as such. Maybe we could take this to the message board. I am enjoying the discussion, but don’t know how much longer Trench will appreciate us doing it in this thread.
if anyone is willing… I’ll start a thread there for us. so lets get a few hands up before we head over there 🙂

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August 2, 2005

Alyric

I didn’t even *know* there was a board. Oops? Sure thing. Registering right now, actually.

Oh, and many of the stories in the Bible are actually older stories with a monotheistic spin put on them. Adam and Eve, for example, can be traced back to the Sumerians. It’s entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that the story of Noah and the ark is similar in that regard.

But, erm, not here, right? Anyhoo.

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August 3, 2005

jim

ok… here is the thread link.

http://board.thetrenchcoat.com/index.php/topic,98.0.html

Anyone who wants to join is welcome, but know that this board is not for trolls.

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August 31, 2005

No One Likes You

melanie van wyhe,
I hate you

love,
me

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August 31, 2005

jim

“Hate” is such a strong word… cant you just dislike her greatly ? 😆

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