TheTrenchcoat Chronicles

From everything I know about Asperger’s, attempting to use it as a defense for murder is no more viable than trying to use Attention Deficit Disorder as a defense. It’s silly.

First off Trench I am sorry for saying that on that post, hope you will reconsider my suspension. I was just trying to show you that anything could be banned. Second off both of you should try going to wrongplanet.net sometime and seeing all the posts that involve breakdowns, just last week we had a mom come in there for the first time because her son had threatened someone with a knife he uses for self-defense, and got himself arrested.

While most younger aspies aren’t violent neither are most schizoprenics. Does that make schizoprenia a bad defense?

Most people aren’t violent period. The difference with a violent schizophrenic is that they’re so out of touch with reality that they fail to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

This is not the case with Asperger’s, so leave the logical fallicies at home.

Ummm when I have lost control I have broken teachers fingers, hit a boy over the head with a nice 2×4, beat a kid with a football helmet, made a kid get stitches, and about a dozen other things. From the sound of it this boy was the same. If he killed someone in this sortof state I really don’t think that should mean life in prision even if most aspies aren’t violent.

I could have killed someone God knows how many times, luckily I never had the means at the time. I am not a threat today, just like I imagine this kid won’t be in 5 years time. Yes it was Asperger’s that made him do this, if you don’t believe me go see how many posts involve aspies losing control on any aspie message board (especcially that one as it has so many parental members).

Face it what you know about Asperger’s could probably be written on an index card.

The legal standard for an insanity/mental defect defense in court requires the defendant to be unable to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

As I said above, Asperger’s does not impair judgement in this manner.

On a side note, consider this an intervention.

[i]While most younger aspies aren’t violent neither are most schizoprenics. Does that make schizoprenia a bad defense?[/i]

This is an association fallacy.

[i]Ummm when I have lost control I have broken teachers fingers, hit a boy over the head with a nice 2×4, beat a kid with a football helmet, made a kid get stitches, and about a dozen other things.[/i]

Anecdotal evidence / hasty generalization.

[i]I could have killed someone God knows how many times, luckily I never had the means at the time. I am not a threat today, just like I imagine this kid won’t be in 5 years time.[/i]

Faulty generalization. (Proof by example.)

[i]Face it what you know about Asperger’s could probably be written on an index card.[/i]

Ad hominem.

Ummmmm yes it does. When an aspie has a breakdown they do not care about right or wrong, they are not even aware of right and wrongs existance, they just attack, no control whatsoever over what happens. It would be like your entire frontal lobe breaking down so you are acting entirely out of rage. Do you still think (assuming what I said is correct) that aspies know the difference between right and wrong.

I have helped 3 seperate parents out that had aspies with legal troubles, one who gave a security guard a black eye for touching him (breakdown), one who clinched his fist at the principal (breakdown), and one who well its a long story but who also had a breakdown. Sensing a trend here???

And I find it hard to believe that bringing up personal experiences of breakdowns where I either did or could have seriously injured someone, and in the case of the 2×4 and football helmet maybe worse, is a logical fallacy. Don’t you think it is relevent that aspies can and will attack with weapons they have handy when they have breakdowns? You will really have to explain to me how that is not relevent.

Also the reason I brought up schizophrenia is that so many people are worried that by this person being violent due to his asperger’s will make every aspie be seen as violent. But just because it makes one person be violent doesn’t mean it makes everyone be violent (as is the case with schizophrenia). I didn’t mean that it is at all like schizophrenia (though conicidently many aspies have been misdiagnosed that way and vice versa.)

[i]When an aspie has a breakdown they do not care about right or wrong, they are not even aware of right and wrongs existance, they just attack, no control whatsoever over what happens. It would be like your entire frontal lobe breaking down so you are acting entirely out of rage. Do you still think (assuming what I said is correct) that aspies know the difference between right and wrong.[/i]

Absolutely untrue, as any psychiatrist that has worked with Asperger’s will tell you.

[i]I have helped 3 seperate parents out that had aspies with legal troubles, one who gave a security guard a black eye for touching him (breakdown), one who clinched his fist at the principal (breakdown), and one who well its a long story but who also had a breakdown. Sensing a trend here???[/i]

Hasty generalization. Confused correlation and causation.

[i]And I find it hard to believe that bringing up personal experiences of breakdowns where I either did or could have seriously injured someone, and in the case of the 2×4 and football helmet maybe worse, is a logical fallacy.[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

[i]Don’t you think it is relevent that aspies can and will attack with weapons they have handy when they have breakdowns?[/i]

Like anyone else will attack with a weapon when they get angry enough? See correlation does not imply causation.

Oh okay I am glad that you cleared up the fact that aspies frequently have breakdowns is not because they have asperger’s. By the way how could you possibly speak for what ever psycatrist thinks.

Just curious have you been to wrongplanet.net yet? Maybe you should go there and explain to everyone there that their breakdowns aren’t because they have asperger’s. And that when they have THEIR breakdowns they are in full control of their bodies and themselves. I am sure that they will be willing to listen to you more then themselves who have actually had these breakdowns.

[i]Oh okay I am glad that you cleared up the fact that aspies frequently have breakdowns is not because they have asperger’s.[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

We’re living in the era of ducking personal responsibility. Of course there’s going to be groups of people trying to blame Asperger’s. But it’s insulting to the majority of those with Asperger’s that are *not* violent.

Road rage, sports rage, none of these defenses held up in court. No, being angry doesn’t give you the inability to distinguish between right and wrong.

Maybe some Asperger’s sufferers have a harder time controlling their tempers. (And in that case, whether it’s a cause or an environmental result of AS is not yet a matter of scientific knowledge.) Well too bad. There are plenty of other reasons, both emotional and psychological, for people to have short tempers. It’s not a legal defense. End of story.

Incidentally, an angry outburst is not a breakdown.

You fucking idiot, I want you to spend one day being autistic, just one day to see how it feels. You can’t control your rage (note I said rage not anger, this is not an “angry outburst”.)

You still won’t go to that site so maybe you would read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime that was written by a neurotypical who had spent quite some time working with autistics/aspies. About 25 pages into the book when the aspie is stressed out and suffered a breakdown a cop comes over and just touches his shoulder, this is enough to make the aspie stab him with a pocket knife. If this kindof incident was really all that rare do you think he (who I would assume is more of an expert then you) would put it in his book… probably not.

But I know you are to comfortable with your current level of knowledge to look for anymore. You won’t be challenged out of your current believes that all aspies choose to have breakdowns when they do. The thing is I am going to guess that at least one jury isn’t like you and is willing to be challenged… and it only takes one to hang a jury. Think about that for a second.

[i]You can’t control your rage (note I said rage not anger, this is not an “angry outburst”.)[/i]

Quoted verbatim from http://www.theautismangel.org/autism.htm

MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT AUTISM:

* [b]People with autism are violent and/or dangerous.[/b]: A terrible disservice to those with autism has been done here. [b]Sometimes, violent behavior emerges in an individual with autism as a coping mechanism to the pain, stress, or frustration s/he may feel over not being able to communicate and receive needed or desired things.[/b] Consider that if someone took away your ability to speak, write, or feel pain at a sensory level, and you wanted to communicate, you might just bang your head against the wall, too. [b]Often, people without autism turn to violence when frustration is at a peak and they cannot imagine another way of expressing their needs or feelings.[/b] For many of our beloved friends with autism, maybe they were born with a set of life tools that left them frustrated from the get-go. It’s a theory, not a fact…but one to consider. [b]The fact remains that when communication needs are properly and effectively managed for someone with autism, violence is almost surely absent entirely.[/b]

And this is directly from the ICD-10 F84, the World Health Organization’s entire entry on Diagnostic guidelines for Asperger’s:

[i]Diagnosis is based on the combination of a lack of any clinically significant general delay in language or cognitive development plus, as with autism, the presence of qualitative deficiencies in reciprocal social interaction and restricted, repetitive, stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests, and activities. [b]There may or may not be problems in communication similar to those associated with autism,[/b] but significant language retardation would rule out the diagnosis.[/i]

Even the WHO disagrees with you in favor of the above article.

Regardless, I’ve given you the opportunity to remove the fallacies from your argument, and you’ve failed to do so. Continuing this would be a waste of both our time.

That article says violent behavior emerges as a coping mechanism for problems that I have been describing. Basically that is EXACTALLY what I have said. I think where we are disagreeing is if Jack was tought how to properly communicate properly, I know I wasn’t and many of the aspies that have turned to violence haven’t been. From what I have seen Jack say I doubt he is able to communicate properly

I think the problem that you are having is that you think I want him to get off totally. That couldn’t be farther from the truth. I just think he if he did this in a breakdown that he should be charged with manslaughter (EED), not murder 1 like they will try to charge him with.

There is very little evidence that this is premediated and the fact that A) it was an innocent boy who he didn’t know and B) he begged them to save the boy, leads me ot believe that this wasn’t anything but an accident, even if he did stab him more then once.

I also disagree that he should be tried as an adult. He doesn’t have the proper capacity to think like a 16 year old (developmental disabilities tend to do that to you) so he certainly doesn’t think like an adult. This is a 16 year old boy with a severe disability, that seems like it was mostly treated with drugs (which we all know what they have done to other boys and aspies).

Once again I don’t want him to walk, I just want him to have a life outside of jail.

Perhaps I haven’t been clear. Please try to follow my reasoning, it’s the last time I’ll post here.

Some people, when they get frustrated, commit violent acts. Most don’t.

Some people [i]with Asperger’s[/i], when they get frustrated, commit violent acts. Most don’t.

Frustration is neither a defense nor a mitigating factor for the first, and it isn’t for the second.

Some people with Asperger’s may become frustrated more easily than other people. However, they don’t [i]have[/i] to lash out violently. They choose to. It is [i]not[/i] a loss of control (from a medical standpoint). If this was true, all Asperger’s sufferers would be violent. This is not the case.

There are an infinite amount of conditions or reasons that can cause [i]some[/i] otherwise perfectly normal people to act or react violently. Of these, only a few are considered a legitimate legal defense - self defense, etc. Frustration is not one of them.

So while John Odgren might have ended up on the shallow end of the gene pool, in the end, it was his [i]choice[/i], and a choice he’s going to have to pay for.

Now, if you had been arguing that the law needed more shades of grey when it comes to diminished capacity, I could understand - even agree with - that. I could even agree that, perhaps, John Odgren might have been misdiagnosed; it’s not all that uncommon with Asperger’s.

But trying to use Asperger’s as a mitigating factor in the killing is doing a disservice to John Ogden - because it’s not a defense that will survive legal scrutiny - and to people with AS in general. And that’s all I have to say on the matter.

Perhaps I am not making myself clear, it is far more then frustration. You do not have a choice, you rage, sometimes for several minutes sometimes for a few seconds. You do not make the choice. It is an EED episode, thus manslaughter.

Next AS has been used as a legal defense before succesfully (in that it got a lesser sentence not got the person off entirely). Oh and never call Asperger’s the “shallow end of the gene pool” it makes you saying you want to help aspies look laughable.

Also answer me this time, have you checked out those sites or that books yet? Perhaps you need to stop reaching Asperger’s from the outside and start researching it from the inside. Heck you could even register there (or not) and make a post asking people what its like when they have breakdowns and if they have any control when they do. Most probably would say yes but there will be some if not alot that say they don’t.

I thought it might help to actually quote other aspies describing breakdowns so here it goes.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=18501&highlight=breakdowns

“Hmmn, I’m not a violent person, but I’ve had breakdowns before and lost ALL control of myself, it felt like I was inside screaming for help while my body had a total violent fit, I hated myself for so long for doing it, being told by everyone I can gain control, I can just breath when it happens and it will go away, but it doesn’t….”

“We moved and he attended a new school. I still don’t know quite how they did it (and in only three months), but they turned him into a physically violent, raging, out-of-control terror who DID try to injure people with his bare hands. His anger was whipped into such a frenzy and they had totally erased any self-esteem and self-control that his anger was all he had left to protect himself. They didn’t allow him to make any decisions, they kept forcing him into detention for every little thing, they put him into a loud, overcrowded classroom and when we tried to explain his condition, they took the information and used it against him (please stop moving his desk, we’d ask, so they’d move it again knowing it would cause meltdown and then they would put him in detention for making a scene - that sort of thing).

We brought him home and we’ve worked with him - he’s doing much better now. It’s a matter of control - my son needs some control over his own life. He needs to be a part of this family with opinions that matter and a chance to make some decisions. That helps make his life a little more predictable and understandable. Without it, he feels tossed around, bossed about and out-of-control.

Without that control, he’ll take control in other ways and those ways turned out to be violent.”

“My AS son is the sweetest, cleverest kid you could ever meet 80% of the time. The other 20% he is so scary and out of control, I sometimes wonder if I’ll end up on the news . I still am not sure what to do when he gets like this, he is stronger than I am by this point so restraining him isn’t an option.”

“I keep learning about my son and just assumed it was anger/sadness that would trigger the meltdowns and violence. But at the same time, I knew it was the environment too.

He kept saying he just wanted to win one, why can’t he ever win? It didn’t feel like he was being bossy or controlling or manipulative - just something about the look of total despair gave me the feeling it was more a cry for self-preservation. He felt completely helpless in that situation.

Thank you for that post - it does help.” (From the same person who talked about the enviormental cause.)

Note this is all from just one thread out of at least 79 talking about breakdowns (or having the word breakdown in them which unless its Tantric fans that seems like a weird word to use).

What was talked about the enviorment seems especcially important here. I forget how recently but John was moved from one program (where he must have shown some progress to get out) to here, then he has a violent breakdown. Makes me wonder if the school was too much to handle for him, fyi some of those people are pretty close to me. So if you go there please do treat them well.

Does this only affect males? Why is it we never hear of females having these violent breakdowns?

Actually if I do remember correctly the first person I quoted there was female, though from the picture I get of that she has non-violent breakdowns or self-violent breakdowns (which are still pretty bad.)

Other then that I would expect that males in general tend to be more violent, so it could be hormones playing a role. Also remember it is much more likely for males to be autistic in the first place.

Unfortunately what you’re describing sounds like adolescents with Asperger’s should not be in the public school system, as they are prone to episodes of uncontrollable violence…if that’s not the case, how do you propose they can be integrated safely with other teens? How can a teen with Asperger’s manage to control moments of being completely out of control? It’s not going to work if they have these moments and violently attack people.